Correct me if I’m wrong, but the higher compression of the b44 comes from having a longer stroke (and bore slightly), thus the total swept volume of the combustion chamber is greater than the b40 due to the piston going lower than the b40. So when you divide the volume of the combustion chamber with the piston at BDC with the volume at TDC, which equals compression ratio, the top number is larger on the b44 due to greater piston travel, and thus the higher ratio. Josh video demonstrates that the bottom number (volume at TDC) is same/similar for b44 and b40, but doesn’t take into the higher swept volume of the b44.
I really am not familiar with the science of the compression ratio, what you are saying sounds correct. Ive heard the frankenmotor raises CR, ive also heard it actually lowers the CR lol. It’s convoluted
@@m3nameisjosh464 as the guy said; CR is ratio of combustion chamber at its biggest (piston at bottom of bore) divided by ratio of combustion chamber at its smallest (piston @ top). The longer stroke and extra volume @ BDC in the b44 allows the pressurised combustion gases more space to push on the piston and convert a teensy bit more of that pressure into torque transmitted to the crankshaft before the rest is wasted (exhaust valves open). The 4.4L in theory gives a more efficient bang but if tuning isn't right that efficiency might result in just better fuel efficiency and not as measurably higher power
@@greebj thank you! So with that being said, the claim is that when building the stroker you are simply creating an engine that is nearly the same as a stock M62b44, because the heads aren’t changing anything, so you are relying completely on the bottom ends additional bore.
@StacheCam I watch your channel too. I am a fan of the e34 bmws, especially manual M5s, V8 530i/6, and 540i/6. I eventually have to get a manual daily to take miles off my Porsche 968. Can you let me know if you have any for sale. Maybe we can work something out. Eventually, I want to get tools and start working on cars myself.
My personal experience on this topic is the following: In 2023 I decided to go for this build, after generally only reading the "successful" stories on forums. I had an original 540 e34 with 500k km mileage. The engine was providing pretty good power and dynamics considering its mileage, but was fully covered with dirt and oil, so definitely wanted an overhaul, and forums suggested this idea. I did absolutely complete repair, everything was replaced, almost everything OEM, not other "tuning stuff" added, bone stock. Then I went to dyno, the result is 100% stock m60b40 power output with the graph completely identical to exemplary in the whole rpm range (I can send pictures to those who are interested). It is a real bummer that I didn't dyno it before this build, I simply didn't know that I have one literally in the neighborhood :-) From personal feelings the car is much more torquey in the low and mid range and almost worse on the high rpms, but has slightly higher consumption (around 10%). 100-200 acceleration is for example also better by couple of seconds, but I feel like if I've simply done the overhaul with original b40 block the result would have been more or less the same. Already did around 5000 km on this engine and now I can't decide if I should go for more aggressive cams for b40 applications to get at least closer to wheel 300 hp (now it is 250), because I feel like cams are really the limitation of this build that is not letting to use the larger displacement. BTW ECU tuning did really insignificant increase of around 5-6 whp, decided not to bother with it at all and simply leave the stock b40 ECU for now.
@@tornadorster wow! Thank you for sharing your story regarding the stroker build. Its great to actually hear documented information regarding power output!! Same power as a stock B40 is crazy! Turns out it is a fluke!
You can build b46m60 stroker if you want, i think its around 380 hp to the wheels. you will need b44 block, b46 rotating assembly (crank, pistons, piston rods, cams), b40 crank sprocket, timing chains + the covers, heads and intake manifold.
@@m3nameisjosh464 nope it lifts the car from the four jack points. the only thing that may get in the way are the hoses. especially in your case. you can raise the car, lock the mechanism and then detach the hoses so there's nothing in the way. pull exhaust trans subframes.
You should source a m62b48 found in the X5 4.8is. This a pretty rare engine and rumor tells that bmw juste took it from the Alpina b10 v8s (e39). That would be an incredible stroker swap!
@@m3nameisjosh464 You're right ! M62B48 was only found in the b10 v8s and z8 roadster , in other words impossible to found :D . But M62b46 was in the b10 4.6 e34, b10 v8 e39 and X5 4.6is first generation. Maybe worth the shot trying to source this one for an easy swap ?
@@m3nameisjosh464I have 300k on my m62tu with zero oil consumption, they’re not all junk, some people do regular maintenance and treat them like normal cars. I see m62tu for sale in Illinois/midwest for next to nothing. You don’t have to give up on a better bottom end, find a 4.6 from an x5
@@m3nameisjosh464 im in Iowa and I see 4.4s sprinkled around Illinois all the time, but the 4.6 is harder to find. If you’re on UA-cam time, sure it’s impossible, but in reality, there’s lots of stuff out there you just gotta look. Nothing wrong with a 4.0 either
It's all about torque under the curve and not just peak BHP. BHP is just torque multiplied by RPM. Being of bigger CC then the B44 should have more torque lower down but run out of puff futher up the rev range and hence why the B40 and B44 probably had similar peak BHP figures. The B44 should have been a nice car to drive as the extra torque lower down would pull the heavy 7 series along easier.
I don't have any experience with these engines, but if your visual observation is correct, you just proved the stroker DOES increases the compression ratio. Think about it. It's compression RATIO. If the volume on top remains the same, but you increase the volume in the bottom, the compression ratio must increase. To know for sure, careful measurements must be taken.
10 percent extra displacement and these guys are saying it makes no more power or torque ?!? 😂 So 10 percent counts for nothing? Especially given the m60b40 cams are more aggressive than the 4.4 ones. I dunno man I think they had a strong m60b40 vs a weak m60b44 to be perfectly honest because mine is stronger than the m60b40 I pulled out so
You could very well be right, I have no idea how the CR calculations work. In response to the other comment, its not necessarily discrediting that a 4.4 makes more power but its saying the stroker doesn’t gain anything over just swapping a m62b44 in. The point being why build an engine, if you can shove a stock m62 in and its the same power. (Except for reliability of the 4.0 parts) I dunno anymore
@@clayp.e30_v86 exactly, so if you have all the parts laying around, why not, but if thats not the case, is it worth tearing apart a 4.0 and a 4.4 to combine them? Thats a question everyone who wants to do the build has to ask
I think you just may have helped me figure out what the upper head timing sound my 840 (b40) has. Sounds like a nasty scraping, I think i lost that plastic guide on the upper chain tensioner.
Sry but to add to some comments and your explanations: 1) compression increases as already been explained. 2) hp increases as a) displacement increases and b) just google the m62 introduction pdf. You will learn that a m60b40 has a far sharper cam and more lift. The channels in the head are even bigger and thus the engine cn breathe better. If your guy told you something about it not being anything better, there was something else off on the engine build. Honestly go the m60b40+ route(light 50g tappets), use a bigger valvebody(there are shops selling a refurbish with increased diameter + polished and flow enhanced internals) and hand adapt the exhaust flanges, 200cell cats and a remap woth 7k rev limiter....you can dyno it and see where the car goes. When ever you come across a good b44 the Frankenstein can be done and compared.
Can you use S62 crank, rods, and pistons to increase to 5 liters and also somehow install the S62 ITBs? What I mean is to create a simple OBD1 S60(???!!!) with no vanos.
How much is your e34 530/540i/6 going for?. I recall from your savage build from your estroil. Blue e36 M3 came with a super sprint exhaust, too, right?
@m3nameisjosh464 Whenever, you have anymore e36 M3s manual euro/us spec, e36 manual 328is, e34 manuals, you should let me know. I will probably be ready to buy by then. I am also a fan of Alpinas, E30 B6 and e36 Alpinas too.
Will an6one have any cheap e36 or e46 for sale around march in Virginia Beach va area? I'll be getting my school refund then and looking to get a cheap daily and first bmw then. Manual or auto doesn't matter to me
These engines can definitely run with wildly broken components. There just wasn’t anything I could have done to cause that damage. It not the first time I disassembled an m60. It was by the book
I think you are focusing too much on the CR of this build. That isn't the point of doing the m60b44 stroker. Remember that the m60 has better cams for making more power in the upper end of the powerband vs the m62. They have higher lift AND duration. The idea is to make m60 cams, timing, and reliability onto an m62. The power is not going to be dramatically better, but the 10% increase in displacement will be applied to the cams off the m60. So 282 hp becomes 310 hp. This also means that the power is more up top in the rev range because of cams. You have to use the revs to make it work. The m60 heads can reliably go to 7200 rpms without anything being changed on them. The m62 is limited to 6500 rpms. Tuning is also a big aspect. A good tune can make or break it. Dudmd is pretty much the go-to for this build. And a tune can bring out more than 310, a good tune can make 325 hp. Even more using standalone, some have gotten over 350hp
Whoever designed the E34 front grille should be prosecuted. Why did the do it like that? E30 and E32 grilles come off in seconds. My 318is M42 burnt the same exhaust valve, the rear one on cylinder number 3. 178,000 miles and 30 years old tho. The 4.4 stroker will always have a different CR to the 4.0 with the same piston crowns and heads because it's drawing in and thus compressing more air. Unless you are remapping the ECU properly though, the ignition timing will be wrong because the 4.4 piston will be coming up the bore faster and dwell at TDC is less. More fuel alone won't achieve more power. I suspect the 4.0 cams aren't doing it any favours either. A 4.4 short engine will have better torque but very little more power.
@@m3nameisjosh464 It increases. But it's complex. A lower compression engine with really good breathing can achieve a higher cylinder pressure than a high CR engine that doesn't breathe so well. But 4.0 and 4.4's have the same valve sizes, just different lift/duration. The other thing is rev limits. Folk say 'just another 500 rpm won't hurt', Well yes, it will. What they don't realise is thjat rod bearing loads increase as a square of the rpm - at 4000 rpm the loads are four times higher that at 2000, not twice as much.
I made the front end of my e30 removable because it makes my life a million times easier with the v8 swap. I did mine about 8 years ago then people started doing it after I'd posted in the groups etc 😎
By the way, I went directly from m60b40 to m60b44 in my e30 and it is 100 percent definitely stronger.! Yes it's on standalone but its currently only been road tuned on a base file so not tuned properly yet. Having it properly tuned this year. I dont know why those 2 guys had poor results. Maybe their m60b44 wasn't a strong one ans the m60b40 was 💁♂️ but everyone that's been in my car have commented how it's stronger and comes on lower down
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the higher compression of the b44 comes from having a longer stroke (and bore slightly), thus the total swept volume of the combustion chamber is greater than the b40 due to the piston going lower than the b40. So when you divide the volume of the combustion chamber with the piston at BDC with the volume at TDC, which equals compression ratio, the top number is larger on the b44 due to greater piston travel, and thus the higher ratio. Josh video demonstrates that the bottom number (volume at TDC) is same/similar for b44 and b40, but doesn’t take into the higher swept volume of the b44.
I really am not familiar with the science of the compression ratio, what you are saying sounds correct. Ive heard the frankenmotor raises CR, ive also heard it actually lowers the CR lol. It’s convoluted
Absolutely correct
@@m3nameisjosh464 as the guy said; CR is ratio of combustion chamber at its biggest (piston at bottom of bore) divided by ratio of combustion chamber at its smallest (piston @ top).
The longer stroke and extra volume @ BDC in the b44 allows the pressurised combustion gases more space to push on the piston and convert a teensy bit more of that pressure into torque transmitted to the crankshaft before the rest is wasted (exhaust valves open). The 4.4L in theory gives a more efficient bang but if tuning isn't right that efficiency might result in just better fuel efficiency and not as measurably higher power
Correct.
@@greebj thank you!
So with that being said, the claim is that when building the stroker you are simply creating an engine that is nearly the same as a stock M62b44, because the heads aren’t changing anything, so you are relying completely on the bottom ends additional bore.
To test your theory you should standalone this b40 and tune it aggressively to make similar power to b44 build
m60b46 ftw
@@Ajcapito would only be impressive if you had the b46 cam profile, that's what really made the power difference
I would BUTTTT you see the way my bank account is set up
@StacheCam I watch your channel too. I am a fan of the e34 bmws, especially manual M5s, V8 530i/6, and 540i/6. I eventually have to get a manual daily to take miles off my Porsche 968. Can you let me know if you have any for sale. Maybe we can work something out. Eventually, I want to get tools and start working on cars myself.
@@ljchill9477 dm me got a 540i6 that’s a project
My personal experience on this topic is the following:
In 2023 I decided to go for this build, after generally only reading the "successful" stories on forums. I had an original 540 e34 with 500k km mileage. The engine was providing pretty good power and dynamics considering its mileage, but was fully covered with dirt and oil, so definitely wanted an overhaul, and forums suggested this idea. I did absolutely complete repair, everything was replaced, almost everything OEM, not other "tuning stuff" added, bone stock. Then I went to dyno, the result is 100% stock m60b40 power output with the graph completely identical to exemplary in the whole rpm range (I can send pictures to those who are interested). It is a real bummer that I didn't dyno it before this build, I simply didn't know that I have one literally in the neighborhood :-)
From personal feelings the car is much more torquey in the low and mid range and almost worse on the high rpms, but has slightly higher consumption (around 10%). 100-200 acceleration is for example also better by couple of seconds, but I feel like if I've simply done the overhaul with original b40 block the result would have been more or less the same. Already did around 5000 km on this engine and now I can't decide if I should go for more aggressive cams for b40 applications to get at least closer to wheel 300 hp (now it is 250), because I feel like cams are really the limitation of this build that is not letting to use the larger displacement.
BTW ECU tuning did really insignificant increase of around 5-6 whp, decided not to bother with it at all and simply leave the stock b40 ECU for now.
@@tornadorster wow! Thank you for sharing your story regarding the stroker build. Its great to actually hear documented information regarding power output!! Same power as a stock B40 is crazy! Turns out it is a fluke!
Always a great day when Josh posts a video
🥹🥹🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
Interesting video josh we learning something new everyday but im still looking forward to seeing this build just as much
True that! Thanks Mike!
chris and hamish are great guys to talk to, known them a few years at this point
Absolute legends
I’m getting M539 vibes and I’m here for it!
Best compliment!!🙌🏼
I hope not. Throwing thousands of dollars of parts at a car and endless vapour blasting. No thanks.
@BerwhaleTheAvenger-b5s how can anyone hate on M539 is beyond me. I guess you can never please everyone lol
Ahhh, how inspiring is this work!
You can build b46m60 stroker if you want, i think its around 380 hp to the wheels.
you will need b44 block, b46 rotating assembly (crank, pistons, piston rods, cams), b40 crank sprocket, timing chains + the covers, heads and intake manifold.
@@mohammadrifaat1065 i would love too but too involved for my timeframe
E36 crankshaft position sensor video pleaseeeeee 😢
@@b58powa i dont have one to demonstrate on haha
You gotta get yourself a quickjack if you're not going lift. Game changer when you have limited space.
Hard to access transmission stuff though no?
@@m3nameisjosh464 nope it lifts the car from the four jack points. the only thing that may get in the way are the hoses. especially in your case. you can raise the car, lock the mechanism and then detach the hoses so there's nothing in the way. pull exhaust trans subframes.
@ cant really drop an engine out the bottom though unfortunately
m60b44 CR is actually around 9,5 or so depending on hg you use, that 11 CR is BS. I did measure everything couple years ago lol
@@TMgarage540 I have been looking for the link you shared a while ago!!! I remember you told me this!!!
@ I’ll look for exact numbers some time, maybe will make a video too lol
You should source a m62b48 found in the X5 4.8is. This a pretty rare engine and rumor tells that bmw juste took it from the Alpina b10 v8s (e39). That would be an incredible stroker swap!
@@daboss2238 it doesn’t work with any of the m60 stuff. Its not an m62, its an N62. So unfortunately not possible:/
@@m3nameisjosh464 You're right ! M62B48 was only found in the b10 v8s and z8 roadster , in other words impossible to found :D . But M62b46 was in the b10 4.6 e34, b10 v8 e39 and X5 4.6is first generation. Maybe worth the shot trying to source this one for an easy swap ?
@ i searched and couldn’t find them dude, super rare! And I had no idea that an m62b48 existed. You taught me something new!
seen a lot of photos of scored bores on high milage m62b44s fwiw
Alusil not so good😥
@@m3nameisjosh464I have 300k on my m62tu with zero oil consumption, they’re not all junk, some people do regular maintenance and treat them like normal cars. I see m62tu for sale in Illinois/midwest for next to nothing. You don’t have to give up on a better bottom end, find a 4.6 from an x5
@ impossible, i searched the state for a 4.6. Not one for sale
@@m3nameisjosh464 im in Iowa and I see 4.4s sprinkled around Illinois all the time, but the 4.6 is harder to find. If you’re on UA-cam time, sure it’s impossible, but in reality, there’s lots of stuff out there you just gotta look. Nothing wrong with a 4.0 either
@ UA-cam time is exactly why I chose to stay 4.0 hahahah
It's all about torque under the curve and not just peak BHP. BHP is just torque multiplied by RPM. Being of bigger CC then the B44 should have more torque lower down but run out of puff futher up the rev range and hence why the B40 and B44 probably had similar peak BHP figures.
The B44 should have been a nice car to drive as the extra torque lower down would pull the heavy 7 series along easier.
@@GarageItYourself makes total sense!!
I don't have any experience with these engines, but if your visual observation is correct, you just proved the stroker DOES increases the compression ratio.
Think about it. It's compression RATIO. If the volume on top remains the same, but you increase the volume in the bottom, the compression ratio must increase.
To know for sure, careful measurements must be taken.
10 percent extra displacement and these guys are saying it makes no more power or torque ?!? 😂
So 10 percent counts for nothing? Especially given the m60b40 cams are more aggressive than the 4.4 ones. I dunno man I think they had a strong m60b40 vs a weak m60b44 to be perfectly honest because mine is stronger than the m60b40 I pulled out so
You could very well be right, I have no idea how the CR calculations work.
In response to the other comment, its not necessarily discrediting that a 4.4 makes more power but its saying the stroker doesn’t gain anything over just swapping a m62b44 in.
The point being why build an engine, if you can shove a stock m62 in and its the same power. (Except for reliability of the 4.0 parts)
I dunno anymore
@m3nameisjosh464 I mean, I'd take it for the dual chains and sprockets alone even if what you've heard is true. Which I seriously doubt Josh
@@clayp.e30_v86 exactly, so if you have all the parts laying around, why not, but if thats not the case, is it worth tearing apart a 4.0 and a 4.4 to combine them? Thats a question everyone who wants to do the build has to ask
M60b40 🙌
I think you just may have helped me figure out what the upper head timing sound my 840 (b40) has. Sounds like a nasty scraping, I think i lost that plastic guide on the upper chain tensioner.
Very well could be the case!! Lol
Nice car and especially when it came out in m5 my friend it doesn't exist👌👌
b44 with b40heads makes 330hp 350hp on the dyno with supersprint headers.
You’ve dynod it??
Sry but to add to some comments and your explanations: 1) compression increases as already been explained. 2) hp increases as a) displacement increases and b) just google the m62 introduction pdf. You will learn that a m60b40 has a far sharper cam and more lift. The channels in the head are even bigger and thus the engine cn breathe better. If your guy told you something about it not being anything better, there was something else off on the engine build. Honestly go the m60b40+ route(light 50g tappets), use a bigger valvebody(there are shops selling a refurbish with increased diameter + polished and flow enhanced internals) and hand adapt the exhaust flanges, 200cell cats and a remap woth 7k rev limiter....you can dyno it and see where the car goes. When ever you come across a good b44 the Frankenstein can be done and compared.
@@maxgr7723 thank you for the additional information!! The m60b40+ route definitely seems like the true way to more power!!!
Can you use S62 crank, rods, and pistons to increase to 5 liters and also somehow install the S62 ITBs?
What I mean is to create a simple OBD1 S60(???!!!) with no vanos.
S62 crank shave 1mm off the piston tops and it will make 4.7ltrs as far as I remember
@@clayp.e30_v86 4.7 correct.. But u can't use the s62 pistons
Glad you guys knew the answer because I didn’t! Lol
@nicolaimrkbrejnbjerg611 yes m62 pistons with 1mm shaved 4.7ltr 😎
If u ever do a M62 and wanna stroke it, i got a 4.7 kit for sale then.
I always assumed the m60b44 was just for reliability and the m60b46 was the real high power hybrid
You are right but the B44 was claimed to gain power as well. B46 is definitely where the power is at!
Which bottom end would be better to sc, b44 or b40?
@@thebrains986 i think they are pretty much both the same. B44s downside is the timing components
Fir what it's worth, b44 bottom end has oil squirters that fire oil at the piston skirts. The m60b40 doesn't have this
@@clayp.e30_v86 true, this is beneficial to FI
How much is your e34 530/540i/6 going for?. I recall from your savage build from your estroil. Blue e36 M3 came with a super sprint exhaust, too, right?
This car is already sold.
But yes it did come with a supersprint
@m3nameisjosh464 Whenever, you have anymore e36 M3s manual euro/us spec, e36 manual 328is, e34 manuals, you should let me know. I will probably be ready to buy by then. I am also a fan of Alpinas, E30 B6 and e36 Alpinas too.
@ sounds good!
Will an6one have any cheap e36 or e46 for sale around march in Virginia Beach va area? I'll be getting my school refund then and looking to get a cheap daily and first bmw then. Manual or auto doesn't matter to me
@@cliftonjackson441 hopefully someone sees this!!!
What do you think about an m50b30 stroker?
Dont know much about it haha, I think its a much more proven engine for gains
IMO there is no way, the camshaft and head must have been damaged during disassembly, this engine would not start with such a cracked head and shaft
"Keep it Reet" ran his Barra with a snapped crank shaft, before swapping it. IDK?
These engines can definitely run with wildly broken components. There just wasn’t anything I could have done to cause that damage. It not the first time I disassembled an m60. It was by the book
I think you are focusing too much on the CR of this build. That isn't the point of doing the m60b44 stroker. Remember that the m60 has better cams for making more power in the upper end of the powerband vs the m62. They have higher lift AND duration. The idea is to make m60 cams, timing, and reliability onto an m62. The power is not going to be dramatically better, but the 10% increase in displacement will be applied to the cams off the m60. So 282 hp becomes 310 hp. This also means that the power is more up top in the rev range because of cams. You have to use the revs to make it work. The m60 heads can reliably go to 7200 rpms without anything being changed on them. The m62 is limited to 6500 rpms. Tuning is also a big aspect. A good tune can make or break it. Dudmd is pretty much the go-to for this build. And a tune can bring out more than 310, a good tune can make 325 hp. Even more using standalone, some have gotten over 350hp
@@davidt.6415 thank you for sharing this information! You are spot on, that all makes sense!
Thats why i dont waste time on forums.
Hahahah
Whoever designed the E34 front grille should be prosecuted. Why did the do it like that? E30 and E32 grilles come off in seconds.
My 318is M42 burnt the same exhaust valve, the rear one on cylinder number 3. 178,000 miles and 30 years old tho.
The 4.4 stroker will always have a different CR to the 4.0 with the same piston crowns and heads because it's drawing in and thus compressing more air. Unless you are remapping the ECU properly though, the ignition timing will be wrong because the 4.4 piston will be coming up the bore faster and dwell at TDC is less. More fuel alone won't achieve more power. I suspect the 4.0 cams aren't doing it any favours either. A 4.4 short engine will have better torque but very little more power.
Thank you for the insights. Ive heard the CR increases, and ive heard it decreases. No clue what to believe!
And the e34 front grille is a pain lol
@@m3nameisjosh464 It increases. But it's complex. A lower compression engine with really good breathing can achieve a higher cylinder pressure than a high CR engine that doesn't breathe so well. But 4.0 and 4.4's have the same valve sizes, just different lift/duration.
The other thing is rev limits. Folk say 'just another 500 rpm won't hurt', Well yes, it will.
What they don't realise is thjat rod bearing loads increase as a square of the rpm - at 4000 rpm the loads are four times higher that at 2000, not twice as much.
@ thank you for the explanation!!! Ive learned alot from these comments! Much appreciated!
I made the front end of my e30 removable because it makes my life a million times easier with the v8 swap. I did mine about 8 years ago then people started doing it after I'd posted in the groups etc 😎
By the way, I went directly from m60b40 to m60b44 in my e30 and it is 100 percent definitely stronger.! Yes it's on standalone but its currently only been road tuned on a base file so not tuned properly yet. Having it properly tuned this year. I dont know why those 2 guys had poor results. Maybe their m60b44 wasn't a strong one ans the m60b40 was 💁♂️ but everyone that's been in my car have commented how it's stronger and comes on lower down
Thank you for sharing your experience!! Sounds like you paved the way🙌🏼🙌🏼
I really dont know why the results are so skewed!
@@m3nameisjosh464I only take a small amount of credit 😆 easy to see why folks thought what a great idea
M10 swap it 😂
Lots of myth out there in the automotive world.
True that
Should’ve went the LS route for the W
Never!