Helpful video but one glaring omission about the drop serve is that the drop serve does not have all the restrictions of the volley serve. Since I am a drop server I am often being told that my legal serve is illegal. 4.A.8.c. The restrictions on the Volley Serve in Rule 4.A.7 do not apply to the drop serve. This means drop serve does not have to worry about upward arc, below the waist or angle of wrist.
0:55 you are incorrect. "At the moment of contact, both feet must be behind the baseline." That is untrue. Rule 4.A.4.a says: "[The moment the ball is served], at least one foot must be on the playing surface behind the baseline." The only other restrictions regarding feet placement are in the rest of 4.A.4, and none of them say both feet must be behind the baseline at the moment of contact. The closest is Rule 4.A.4.b, which says this: "Neither of the server’s feet may touch the court on or inside the baseline " [the moment the ball is served]...but that's talking about touching the court, not being *over* the court. You can serve with one foot planted behind the baseline on the ground, and the other foot well beyond the baseline if it's in the air. There are several pros who serve like this, with one foot planted and the other foot well past the baseline in the air as part of their follow-through. Yet another great example of well-meaning people spreading pickleball misinformation on the internet.
Great video - thank you! One thing that's murky for me: I know you aren't allowed to toss the ball up when you are doing a drop-serve, but are you allowed to toss the ball up when you are doing a volley-serve as long as all the other rules are followed?
It is only prohibited in the PPA, which deviates from USA Pickleball rules on some occasions. The official USA Pickleball rules state you can toss the ball up on a volley serve, as long as you do not impart spin, and as long as contact is not made above the waist.
@@cassandrasmith Actually the official USA Pickleball rulebook, 4.A.7 (page 18-19) 'Volley Serve' contains ZERO mention of 'you can toss the ball up on a volley serve'. The only rule that is somewhat related is 4.A.5. (page 17-18) 'The serve shall be made with only one hand releasing the ball. While some natural rotation of the ball is expected during any release of the ball from the hand, the server shall not impart manipulation or spin on the ball with any part of the body immediately prior to the serve.' That's it. All we get is a vague instruction to RELEASE the ball. Do I 'release the ball' by throwing it up without spin and hit it once it's below my waist? Of course I do. 🤣
@@ConnectCommit You nailed the source of my confusion. Drop serve rules specifically state you can't toss the ball, but volley serve rules omit that, so I'm inclined to think it's okay to toss the ball upwards on a volley serve. That said, it's probably not all that strategically helpful to toss upwards since you still must contact the ball below your waist. I do give my volley serve the very slightest toss upward (like an inch or so) and nobody has complained at me, but because of the vagueness, I don't really feel on all that solid of ground if someone does complain. 🙂
Im new to the game and am wondering if i serve holding the ball out in front of me, and my paddle swing is like tossing horseshoes, is it a legal serve as long as i make contact below my waist? Because this way i can get the ball high in the air like a slow pitch softball arc. Our group seems to be a little divided and it may be because its an odd style they dont like. Amy help would be much appreciated
The commentary states that spin cannot be imparted by your hand before you hit it and this is in agreement with the written rules. It does not state in the commentary that spin cannot be imparted by the paddle as you hit it. Hence players can put spin on their serves.
I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy people argue over the legality of serves in rec play. Unless my opponent is doing something ridiculous I will never ever call them for serving illegally during rec play.
The ball not going above the naval rule I think is unfair bc it creates an advantage for people with taller legs (most taller people), esp when compared to a short person. Now this isn’t to say that genetics shouldn’t play a part in sports. It does and that usually determines a big part of who wins. However when you basically limit a shorter person by not allowing the ball to pass their belly button, they will never have a serve that begins at the same height as a taller person. Which means they will never be able to do certain serves legally (even if they could do them physically). Considering the serve has to be performed in an upper swing, this doesn’t give them an advantage if they were allowed to serve the ball at the same height as a taller person. So ultimately the shorter person is always at the disadvantage and on top of that limited by their disadvantage. They should in my opinion be allowed to hit the ball up higher, as long as it is an upward swing of course if that’s the rule. Just based on physics, a taller person will have a shot coming from a taller height which means it will be able to go over the net at a direct angle that is to the taller server’s advantage. The shorter person doesn’t have that same angle, they are going to have a bit more lob to their shot.
Dude, The very 1st serve you asked legal or not WAS LEGAL by the very definition you stated. Are you not able to watch in slow motion or freeze frame? Stop your video at the 3:40 mark where ball makes contact with paddle, snap a picture, simply edit pic inserting a horizontal line in the center of the ball where it hits the paddle. You will see the line lines up with your crotch. Something tells me your crotch is below your navel. The line is definitely beneath your waistband of your shorts. If you’re gonna make a video at least make sure it’s accurate. I would add the pic I used to analyze but don’t see how or if that’s possible. Just follow the above directions and you’ll see your mistake. And remember it’s not where your navel is when you start to serve, but where it is when you strike the ball. This is important as you are typically in a crouched position, legs bent pre-serve and as you extend your legs and come out of your crouch and strike the ball your navel is rising. Unfortunately, it’s videos like this that misguide people. It’s not that you aren’t stating the rule correctly, it’s the application. In a training video you should slightly exaggerate the rule in demonstrating so it’s easily understood & interpreted.
Agree. He def made contact below his waste (at the crotch) if you pause it at contact. I'm fairly new and I find trying to figure out if I'm making contact above or below my waste very difficult if I'm really "going for it" so this isn't surprising lol
According to the rules followed by the PPA tour the ball is allowed “natural lift” out of your hand. It makes it difficult to record a video like this when the serve rules are ever changing. The MLP currently allows you to toss the ball as high as your want as long as your motion is low to high and paddle tip is below the wrist at contact.
The controversy I see brewing is the definition of release in rule 4.A.5. This strictly impacts the volley serve. Some claim release simply means dropping the ball while others interpret the rule releasing the ball can be tossing the ball up some as long as you make contact below the belly button with the downward angle of the paddle. What is everyone's opinion on this?
Good video....helpful, however still not sure if I can toss the ball up on a volley serve if I hit below the navel and in an upward motion. This is a controversy where I play...others say you can only drop the ball on a volley serve.
You made an incorrect statement about your feet positioning. You only need 1 foot behind the baseline. The other can be in the air and does not need to be planted.
@@h20bearboy65 someone gave the rule location in the comments.The Pickelball court is two dimensional,so you can be outside the lines as long as you lift your foot before you make contact with the ball.
Rule 4.A.4. The moment the ball is served: 4.A.4.a. At least one foot must be on the playing surface behind the baseline. (not both feet as stated at the :56 mark)
I'm still a bit confused on this point. I've gotten told conflicting information. On my serve, I start behind the line and then step through with my right leg as I hit through the ball. Both legs are behind the line as i make contact but my right leg ends on the court. I thought this was legal based on the above rule, but people at my local court says it's not ok because the rule is that both feet have to stay behind the line at all times on the serve. Thanks for the great video!
A lot of the rules regarding serve stifle competition. It’s almost like the old people who gatekeep this game so hard want to make it as hard as possible to hit serve aces because they can’t move as fast as younger people. I like the kitchen rules but the service rules are just dumb.
I have to agree with you! Now, I am 64 years old, (still pretty athletic), and have no problem returning a good high-speed spun serve! And I am able to give as well as I get! At the park that I go to, people my age appoint themselves the "gate keepers" of the rules, and it gets pretty annoying at times! Rules are great, but some are kind of dumb and unnecessary! High level play just adds to the fun competition of the game! I have always disagreed, for instance with make MORGAN EVANS' serve being made "illegal"! It's not impossible to return! Players have to learn to adapt to differing skills on the court.
Except that about half the people who drop serve propel it downwards, and do not just release the ball. And when the rule is explained to them, refuse to change, because they then can't get the high bounce they want. They may argue that they are short, so it should be fine to do that. Propelling it downwards makes it difficult for the serve returner to follow the ball before it is hit, and because they are distracted it is also harder to process other information about the serve that they would in a normal drop serve or volley serve.
Nice informative video. Rules are rules I guess. Im new to Pickleball coming from Tennis. Question, my opponent always serving side spin and backspin just like table tennis, is this illegal or legal?
According to the rules, as long as your friend does a drop serve 4.A.8, they can impart any spin they want on a serve. Though I think it would be hard to do a back spin without throwing the ball down for a higher bounce, which they can’t do 4.A.8.b
You state that spin cannot be imparted during the serve, but never explain or demonstrate it. I see players who put spin on the ball all the time and are never called on it. Seems to be an acceptable practice.
Yeah they say you can’t manipulate with spin “upon releasing that ball”. The rule is against throwing or dropping it with spin before contact. As the other commenter said, the paddle can add tons of spin legally as long as the other rules are followed. They mentioned a particular slice serve being illegal, not because of spin, but rather because the paddle was not moving with an upward trajectory
ChatGPT says "released from the palm of the hand, below the navel, spin can be imparted by the paddle, the top of which must be below the wrist".. 2024 USA rules update.
There's no mention of navel/bellybutton in the rulebook, it only refers to the waist. I think that causes some problems since where is the precise top part of a person's waist??
No. It's just understood because this way you have a way to define the top of the waist. If you like check other videos on pickleball serves they usually state below the navel.
@@HalShoenfield-fs3bp If it's (navel/bellybutton) not in the rulebook, it's simply one of millions of personal opinions. Hence the expression, 'playing by the book'. For now, we are stuck with the vague volley serve rule 4.A.7.c 'Contact with the ball must not be made above the waist'
This video isn't very good. The first example serve that is supposedly illegal, does appear to be legal. If you slow down the play of the video, it looks like the ball was hit at or just below the navel. It not easy to tell when played at normal speed. If I were the ref, I'd (absolutely) call it legal. This demonstration should have been clearer; not questionable or hard to judge. The final serve hit by the female presenter was indeed illegal and NOT legal as claimed. The ball was "pulled" or "revrese tossed" upward before it was allowed to fall naturally and be hit, thusly. Though the explanation of these offenses were discussed and are theoretically correct, what was illustrated, in both cases, was not.
Viewing your first serve in .25x slow motion, it's a little difficult to tell with the camera angle, but you appear to be making contact at your navel. You certainly release it high, but the contact point seems to be almost exactly in line with your belly button. Would this not make this serve legal? It's almost exactly the serve used in the PPA before the rule change about 5 months back, that required an even lower contact point (BELOW) the waist.
You my friend should be a referee as you have a keen eye and are absolutely correct! I froze frame it at 3:40 minute mark & drew a horizontal line in the center of the ball as it strikes the paddle. The horizontal line intersects his shorts BELOW the waistband.
Your first "illegal" serve was actually legal. If you slow the video down you can see that the ball, at the moment of contact, was below your shirt -- and thus clearly below your navel.
The waist rule in pickleball is stupid because players height will not be the same. Badminton used to have the same rule but they changed to fixed height which is more fair.
Thanks. Explained directly and simply versus UA-camrs who blather irrelevantly for minutes.
Helpful video but one glaring omission about the drop serve is that the drop serve does not have all the restrictions of the volley serve. Since I am a drop server I am often being told that my legal serve is illegal.
4.A.8.c. The restrictions on the Volley Serve in Rule
4.A.7 do not apply to the drop serve.
This means drop serve does not have to worry about upward arc, below the waist or angle of wrist.
0:55 you are incorrect. "At the moment of contact, both feet must be behind the baseline." That is untrue. Rule 4.A.4.a says: "[The moment the ball is served], at least one foot must be on the playing surface behind the baseline." The only other restrictions regarding feet placement are in the rest of 4.A.4, and none of them say both feet must be behind the baseline at the moment of contact. The closest is Rule 4.A.4.b, which says this: "Neither of the server’s feet may touch the court on or inside the baseline " [the moment the ball is served]...but that's talking about touching the court, not being *over* the court. You can serve with one foot planted behind the baseline on the ground, and the other foot well beyond the baseline if it's in the air. There are several pros who serve like this, with one foot planted and the other foot well past the baseline in the air as part of their follow-through.
Yet another great example of well-meaning people spreading pickleball misinformation on the internet.
love your showing example of legal or illegal , many argue about tis on beginner game
Great video - thank you! One thing that's murky for me: I know you aren't allowed to toss the ball up when you are doing a drop-serve, but are you allowed to toss the ball up when you are doing a volley-serve as long as all the other rules are followed?
I do not believe so, has to be a drop if I remember right
You are allowed to toss the ball up on a volley serve. The probation about tossing the ball up only pertains to a drop serve.
It is only prohibited in the PPA, which deviates from USA Pickleball rules on some occasions. The official USA Pickleball rules state you can toss the ball up on a volley serve, as long as you do not impart spin, and as long as contact is not made above the waist.
@@cassandrasmith Actually the official USA Pickleball rulebook, 4.A.7 (page 18-19) 'Volley Serve' contains ZERO mention of 'you can toss the ball up on a volley serve'. The only rule that is somewhat related is 4.A.5. (page 17-18) 'The serve shall be made with only one hand releasing the ball. While some natural rotation of the ball is expected during any release of the ball from the hand, the server shall not impart manipulation or spin on the ball with any part of the body immediately prior to the serve.' That's it. All we get is a vague instruction to RELEASE the ball. Do I 'release the ball' by throwing it up without spin and hit it once it's below my waist? Of course I do. 🤣
@@ConnectCommit You nailed the source of my confusion. Drop serve rules specifically state you can't toss the ball, but volley serve rules omit that, so I'm inclined to think it's okay to toss the ball upwards on a volley serve. That said, it's probably not all that strategically helpful to toss upwards since you still must contact the ball below your waist. I do give my volley serve the very slightest toss upward (like an inch or so) and nobody has complained at me, but because of the vagueness, I don't really feel on all that solid of ground if someone does complain. 🙂
Im new to the game and am wondering if i serve holding the ball out in front of me, and my paddle swing is like tossing horseshoes, is it a legal serve as long as i make contact below my waist? Because this way i can get the ball high in the air like a slow pitch softball arc. Our group seems to be a little divided and it may be because its an odd style they dont like. Amy help would be much appreciated
The commentary states that spin cannot be imparted by your hand before you hit it and this is in agreement with the written rules. It does not state in the commentary that spin cannot be imparted by the paddle as you hit it.
Hence players can put spin on their serves.
any rule against taking a couple of steps of a walk up to the serve?
Legal!
I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy people argue over the legality of serves in rec play. Unless my opponent is doing something ridiculous I will never ever call them for serving illegally during rec play.
The ball not going above the naval rule I think is unfair bc it creates an advantage for people with taller legs (most taller people), esp when compared to a short person.
Now this isn’t to say that genetics shouldn’t play a part in sports. It does and that usually determines a big part of who wins. However when you basically limit a shorter person by not allowing the ball to pass their belly button, they will never have a serve that begins at the same height as a taller person. Which means they will never be able to do certain serves legally (even if they could do them physically). Considering the serve has to be performed in an upper swing, this doesn’t give them an advantage if they were allowed to serve the ball at the same height as a taller person. So ultimately the shorter person is always at the disadvantage and on top of that limited by their disadvantage. They should in my opinion be allowed to hit the ball up higher, as long as it is an upward swing of course if that’s the rule. Just based on physics, a taller person will have a shot coming from a taller height which means it will be able to go over the net at a direct angle that is to the taller server’s advantage. The shorter person doesn’t have that same angle, they are going to have a bit more lob to their shot.
Dude,
The very 1st serve you asked legal or not WAS LEGAL by the very definition you stated. Are you not able to watch in slow motion or freeze frame? Stop your video at the 3:40
mark where ball makes contact with paddle, snap a picture, simply edit pic inserting a horizontal line in the center of the ball where it hits the paddle. You will see the line lines up with your crotch. Something tells me your crotch is below your navel. The line is definitely beneath your waistband of your shorts.
If you’re gonna make a video at least make sure it’s accurate. I would add the pic I used to analyze but don’t see how or if that’s possible. Just follow the above directions and you’ll see your mistake.
And remember it’s not where your navel is when you start to serve, but where it is when you strike the ball. This is important as you are typically in a crouched position, legs bent pre-serve and as you extend your legs and come out of your crouch and strike the ball your navel is rising.
Unfortunately, it’s videos like this that misguide people. It’s not that you aren’t stating the rule correctly, it’s the application. In a training video you should slightly exaggerate the rule in demonstrating so it’s easily understood & interpreted.
Agree. He def made contact below his waste (at the crotch) if you pause it at contact. I'm fairly new and I find trying to figure out if I'm making contact above or below my waste very difficult if I'm really "going for it" so this isn't surprising lol
The last serve at 4:95 was illegal. Because the ball was rising when it left your hand
According to the rules followed by the PPA tour the ball is allowed “natural lift” out of your hand. It makes it difficult to record a video like this when the serve rules are ever changing. The MLP currently allows you to toss the ball as high as your want as long as your motion is low to high and paddle tip is below the wrist at contact.
The controversy I see brewing is the definition of release in rule 4.A.5. This strictly impacts the volley serve. Some claim release simply means dropping the ball while others interpret the rule releasing the ball can be tossing the ball up some as long as you make contact below the belly button with the downward angle of the paddle. What is everyone's opinion on this?
In a volley serve, can i toss the ball up a little before hitting it below the waist line? (assuming i did everything else right)
As long as your contact point is below the waist and you swing low to high and don’t manipulate the ball with spin on the toss
Yes you can. Some people mistakenly think you can't because the PPA prohibits it for pros.
Good video....helpful, however still not sure if I can toss the ball up on a volley serve if I hit below the navel and in an upward motion. This is a controversy where I play...others say you can only drop the ball on a volley serve.
You made an incorrect statement about your feet positioning. You only need 1 foot behind the baseline. The other can be in the air and does not need to be planted.
Last serve was illegal since the ball was thrown up to start
3 rules on volley serve:
-upward movement on contact
-highest point of paddle below highest point of wrist
-contact ball below waist (think navel)
You forgot the placement of feet - can't be outside the extended lines - BUT ball can be dropped outside those lines on Drop serve
Thank you!
One of your feet can be outside of the side line,as long as you lift it up at point of contact.
@@danielcouture2256 can you give me sa link where I can find that specific "one foot" rule? I was not aware of that
@@h20bearboy65 someone gave the rule location in the comments.The Pickelball court is two dimensional,so you can be outside the lines as long as you lift your foot before you make contact with the ball.
Rule 4.A.4. The moment the ball is served:
4.A.4.a. At least one foot must be on the playing
surface behind the baseline. (not both feet as stated at the :56 mark)
@cassandrasmith Yes, good catch. We had this correct in the script but it came out wrong.
@@playpickleball-comyour linked article had it correct too 😊
I'm still a bit confused on this point. I've gotten told conflicting information. On my serve, I start behind the line and then step through with my right leg as I hit through the ball. Both legs are behind the line as i make contact but my right leg ends on the court. I thought this was legal based on the above rule, but people at my local court says it's not ok because the rule is that both feet have to stay behind the line at all times on the serve. Thanks for the great video!
@@playpickleball-com Please consider FIXING IT - this is critical.
Also, mention your feet (at contact) must be inside the sidelines.
A lot of the rules regarding serve stifle competition. It’s almost like the old people who gatekeep this game so hard want to make it as hard as possible to hit serve aces because they can’t move as fast as younger people. I like the kitchen rules but the service rules are just dumb.
I have to agree with you! Now, I am 64 years old, (still pretty athletic), and have no problem returning a good high-speed spun serve! And I am able to give as well as I get! At the park that I go to, people my age appoint themselves the "gate keepers" of the rules, and it gets pretty annoying at times! Rules are great, but some are kind of dumb and unnecessary! High level play just adds to the fun competition of the game! I have always disagreed, for instance with make MORGAN EVANS' serve being made "illegal"! It's not impossible to return! Players have to learn to adapt to differing skills on the court.
is illegal to serve in pickleball hitting the ball out of your hand?
I would like to see a new rule that would require everyone to bounce the serve vs dropping. Less issues with illegal served
Interesting take!
Except that about half the people who drop serve propel it downwards, and do not just release the ball. And when the rule is explained to them, refuse to change, because they then can't get the high bounce they want. They may argue that they are short, so it should be fine to do that. Propelling it downwards makes it difficult for the serve returner to follow the ball before it is hit, and because they are distracted it is also harder to process other information about the serve that they would in a normal drop serve or volley serve.
Your first test question serve actually was legal btw. Slow the video down
Maybe this video should be sent specifically to Tyson McGuffin and Jaume Martinez-Vich! They both have very questionable serves.
Nice informative video. Rules are rules I guess. Im new to Pickleball coming from Tennis.
Question, my opponent always serving side spin and backspin just like table tennis, is this illegal or legal?
According to the rules, as long as your friend does a drop serve 4.A.8, they can impart any spin they want on a serve. Though I think it would be hard to do a back spin without throwing the ball down for a higher bounce, which they can’t do 4.A.8.b
You state that spin cannot be imparted during the serve, but never explain or demonstrate it. I see players who put spin on the ball all the time and are never called on it. Seems to be an acceptable practice.
You can’t “pre-spin” the ball before contact. Any spin imparted by the paddle is fine.
Yeah they say you can’t manipulate with spin “upon releasing that ball”. The rule is against throwing or dropping it with spin before contact. As the other commenter said, the paddle can add tons of spin legally as long as the other rules are followed. They mentioned a particular slice serve being illegal, not because of spin, but rather because the paddle was not moving with an upward trajectory
Can’t spin with your hands when you toss, 100% legal to spin with paddle
ChatGPT says "released from the palm of the hand, below the navel, spin can be imparted by the paddle, the top of which must be below the wrist".. 2024 USA rules update.
great tips, I know a few people who could use this video lol
Thank you, Aaron!
There's no mention of navel/bellybutton in the rulebook, it only refers to the waist. I think that causes some problems since where is the precise top part of a person's waist??
The top of the waist, for pickleball, is the belly button, hence contact must be made below the belly button.
@@HalShoenfield-fs3bp Is that officially noted somewhere?
No. It's just understood because this way you have a way to define the top of the waist. If you like check other videos on pickleball serves they usually state below the navel.
@@HalShoenfield-fs3bp If it's (navel/bellybutton) not in the rulebook, it's simply one of millions of personal opinions. Hence the expression, 'playing by the book'. For now, we are stuck with the vague volley serve rule 4.A.7.c 'Contact with the ball must not be made above the waist'
@connectcomit Google top of waist and you'll find navel is mentioned.
The only thing worse than a court in a backyard is a horseshoe pit! Id be moving fast.
This video isn't very good. The first example serve that is supposedly illegal, does appear to be legal. If you slow down the play of the video, it looks like the ball was hit at or just below the navel. It not easy to tell when played at normal speed. If I were the ref, I'd (absolutely) call it legal. This demonstration should have been clearer; not questionable or hard to judge.
The final serve hit by the female presenter was indeed illegal and NOT legal as claimed. The ball was "pulled" or "revrese tossed" upward before it was allowed to fall naturally and be hit, thusly.
Though the explanation of these offenses were discussed and are theoretically correct, what was illustrated, in both cases, was not.
Thank you for your feedback!
Tossing the ball up is legal in USPA volley serves, it is only illegal in PPA, which is not relevant for anyone needing to watch this video.
@jmunt , simply put, what was said in the video, versus what was done are contradictory to each other.
Viewing your first serve in .25x slow motion, it's a little difficult to tell with the camera angle, but you appear to be making contact at your navel.
You certainly release it high, but the contact point seems to be almost exactly in line with your belly button.
Would this not make this serve legal? It's almost exactly the serve used in the PPA before the rule change about 5 months back, that required an even lower contact point (BELOW) the waist.
I absolutely agree! I just commented on that serve and another a tad earlier.
You my friend should be a referee as you have a keen eye and are absolutely correct! I froze frame it at 3:40 minute mark & drew a horizontal line in the center of the ball as it strikes the paddle. The horizontal line intersects his shorts BELOW the waistband.
This game should be illegal
Your first "illegal" serve was actually legal. If you slow the video down you can see that the ball, at the moment of contact, was below your shirt -- and thus clearly below your navel.
The waist rule in pickleball is stupid because players height will not be the same. Badminton used to have the same rule but they changed to fixed height which is more fair.
The last serve was illegal …if you watch her hand the ball is lifted before contact
Totally agree! I made the same observation and commented a short spell ago!
@@aljerones99…..the ball was hit below the navel , but it was semi tossed at the point of release.