The last time I checked, we lived in a democracy. I am almost positive that I fight to maintain democracy! Democracy is about what the majority wants. The majority wants to allow gays to serve openly in the military. Nuff said!
I'm a military member who happens to be a forced closeted gay man. The Don't Ask Don't Tell doesn't stop the homophobe hateful remarks, jokes, comments, suggestions, sexual innuendos, etc, towards the GLBT community. And if I say anything at all to ask them to stop, they'd file papers to have me discharged...very discriminating, and the military gets away with it. It's hard having to fight two wars: Iraq & the hate within my military.
Yeah, my buddy who I work with is actually former Army infantry. He prefers the Air Force, but even the AF isn't for everybody. I've seen quite a number of people get out after 4 years because they hated it. The military just isn't for everybody.
It's not about forcing anything down someone's throat. It's about being given their due rights as tax-paying American citizens, and be left alone to serve professionally in the military. Is that so hard to do? Is it so hard to leave a person of whom you don't like, to merely leave them alone to do their job right?
Privacy is not a priority in the military. We don't always have the luxury of privacy. Usually we do and usually privacy is not a problem. In the cases where there is none, you suck it up and deal with it. You don't kick certain people out because of it, that's ridiculous!
How noble! Republic vs Democrasy (within the realm of this discussion = semantics). Don't try to get fancy, you know what I'm talking about. And you can't justify your argument either way from that standpoint. Speaking of what is RIGHT, I always thought what's fairness and equality was right.
"Modesty issue? But it isn't a modesty issue when 2 gay guys are sharing a bunk (it is possible)?" No, that's not a modesty issue. In fact, there is NO issue there as long as there is no misconduct. "Yes it is a perception issue but a deterrent as well" What exactly does that mean? Deterrent to what? To whom? 3. No. I'm saying that men and women should be professional enough to work with each other regardless of sexuality. It's pretty simple actually and happens all the time.
and even in our own society where you can still be discriminated against, ostracized and even murdered for being gay, why in the world would someone choose that
3. (con't) Most people (gay and straight) think it's unfair and wrong. The only thing that kicking that individual out usually does is "weaken" the team and lower moral. It does not benefit the military in any way to discharge a fighter pilot, an Arabic linguist or a field medic because of their sexuality. It's ridiculous and it hurts the mission! This is the irony because the justification for DADT is to preserve "unit cohesion" and moral. There is nothing to support that at all!
And I'm saying that separating them is unnecessary. The military has rules against misconduct (discrimination, sexual harrassment and sexual assault). If military personal are in fact "professionals" then there is no reason to seperate gays and straights. Again, most people are fine with this idea. Every other military has openly gay soldiers and it works! There is no discrimination against straights because they will still have the option of coming in and serving.
(con...) Fairness and equality has everything to do with it. How great is a soldiers morale going to be if you are constantly under threat of being discharged? Every single proponent of DADT has never, EVER been forced to remain secretive of their personal life. They don't mind it, in short, because it does not inconvenience them. Change DADT to include everyone in the military, and I bet that tune will change right quick.
I'm not an officer, that's just my handle. If you must know, I'm a Tech Sergeant in the Air Force and I've been in for 12 years. I've had gay co-workers before. One guy I found out about after he separated. Another got kicked out because he was outed. They were both good troops and kicking them out did no good for morale or unit cohesion. So I've actually witnessed this happen before. That's why its so ridiuculous and needs to stop.
Modest doesn't apply to members of the same sex. Men don't strip in front of women because it's usually embarrassing and uncomfortable for BOTH parties and vice versa and would constitute sexual harrassment. A male stripping on the company of another male is not sexual harrassment unless there is misconduct involved. There is no modesty issue with the same sex (regardless of sexuality). So it's a big difference. In addition seperation by orientation is not feasable, nor is it necessary.
Most military personnel are not bothered with working with a flamboyant (manly) , and working with a masculine guy who happens to be gay/ . It's the flamboyant feminine gays and male transexuals they'd rather not work with. I know because I'm bi, and I did a little personal research on this. Still, anyone should have the right to serve their country openly, freely, and without discrimination.
@boatstaylor It is not the position of the federal government to dictate ideology to any of its employees; whether it be citizen or soldier. Homosexuality is a sexual preference; it does not dictate behavior, and even if it did, it is not the position of government to question it.
Denial of privacy? Are you serious? That's part of being in the military. Sometimes there is no privacy. We are all used to dealing with that. You deal with that from day one (basic training).
"unwanted sexual tension" - If there is any sexual tension, it's because they created it themself or it's all in their mind. Why should a gay person have to pay for someone elses sexual tension problem? If a straight person is not professional enough to handle the fact that someone they work with is gay, then THEY can get out (or choose not to join). Why does the gay person (who's done nothing wrong) be kicked out?
@MrConcrete71179 Thanks Mr. Concrete. I totally agree with you! I'm very pissed about this whole situation and it's not gonna last. This whole repeal is a joke.
And for the rape in the military, what do you suppose will happen to the individual(s) who are caught and/or accused of rape, gay or straight? Think about it.
Someone tell me why our allies such as Mexico, UK, Australia, Philippines, Israel, Spain, France, New Zealand, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Canada, etc. don't seem to have a problem with unit cohesion with openly Gays & Lesbians in their respective military? And why is that US standards of Gays in the mlitary fall in the same standards ironically with Saudi Arabia, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Egypt, Cuba, and Russia?
If you can pass the training, then you should be fit to fight, physically and mentally, if a gay guy is tough enough to pass marine boot camp or even SEAL training, then he is suited to fight.
Not being paid to do that? So are you telling me in downtime no straight soldiers ever talk about their wives or children? Put any pictures up of the girlfriends they have back home? Talk about their high school sweethearts? Being openly gay does not mean pushing it anyone's faces. It just means not having to repress the person that you are.
"The very fact that I KNOW I am serving with a bunch of homosexuals adds an EXTRA stress that isn't needed" - And who's fault is that? The gay person or yours? If you have a problem with it, then it's your problem. Why do they get punished because of your insecurity about them?
@streetswell Oh, by the way, or I'd have tacked it onto my last post. "made an example of" is such a nice euphamism for having your life ruined, your civil liberties stricken, your job opportunities torched, for reacting in, I would argue, the natural way (for a class A personality) to a leering dude you have zero chance to avoid.
"The fact that gays are serving is a privelege enough" - well, frankly that is your own opinion. I, along with most American citizens respectfully disagree. Imposing that kind of limitation on people simply because of their sexuality is unjust discrimination as far as I view it. That a capable and needed soldier can be kicked out simply for being outed sexually is a disgrace. The military IS weakening itself by discharging able bodied servicemembers. Over 12,000 lost since 1993 for this reason.
Okay the let me rephrase, prejudice! Does that work better? In the case of mentally or physically disabled, legal discrimination makes since because they can't do the job. No business would hire a person incapable of doing the job would they? However, if they tried to avoid hiring (or firing) someone because of their sexuality or race or religion, it'd be a class a lawsuit now wouldn't it.
@streetswell cont.... surrounded by any group of people at all. Suffice to say I don't trust your average person much further than I can see him, and I don't trust your average Marine even that far. Something about changing the rules of engagement, spreading dis-information, and Strategically Transfering Equipment to an Alternate Location.
Segregate? What purpose would that serve? Segregating the sexes is already a reality and technically feasible. Separating people by sexuality is not feasible and it's also pointless according to most people in the military (they've done polls on this by the way). The military allegedly has a ZERO TOLORANCE policy against discrimination and sexual harrassment, so that renders your statement completely inaccurate!
@AnthemicPolemic Actually, it's not hate. I don't have a problem in the world with people doing those things that make them happy, and I reject outright notion that the govt should try to regulate what happens between two consenting adults. My neigbors are lesbian, as is my sister inlaw. Another dude I grew up around turned out to be a pole smoker. I mock them all, good-naturedly, and get ribbed in turn. The difference is that I'm not required to shower or dress where they can watch.
@TMBrd89 True, I've mentioned my preference in the course of debate, but I don't dress in garrish clothing, put together a parade, and slam people on various sites because they disagree with me. Sometimes I wonder if the debate is about "equality" or rubbing the collective nose of straight people in all the perceived wrongs of the past. It may surprise you that I'm actually on (what I'll guess is) your side on gay marriage. State recognized unisex civil unions and the churches sort out marriage
@TMBrd89 On a completely unrelated note, I have to confess. I like you. You're insulting, presumptuous, biased. But you're not stupid, merely ignorant and prejudiced by your environment. I'm sure the same could be said for me, probably worst. Well fought, worthy adversary.....
This whole issue with the showers is just really silly. Gays and straights in the military take open showers all the time and there are never any problems. Again, how would it be any different if the gay guy was out? What exactly has changed here and why would it damage unit cohesion. Nothing has changed except that you know something about them that you didn't know before. And if that causes a breakdown in morale, then its because of YOU, not the gay guy! Unless there is misconduct involved.
No it's not every straight soldiers problem, only the homophobic ones. And homophobia is simply another type of prejudice that the military would be better off without anyway. We're supposed to be professionals. If you can't understand what unethical is, then there is no way for me to make you understand. It's a very simple concept that most "good" people can grasp. People can use "fears" and "insecurities" to justify almost any injustice, but at the end of the day, it's about right and wrong.
No, it's not the gay guys problem. He doesn't have a problem, you do. You are the one that's stressed. He is just himself, gay. You are the one that has a problem with that, he doesn't. Therefore the problem is YOU, and if YOU are the problem you can deal with it in a number of ways. Don't join up, choose to get out, or learn to get over your prejudice. Kicking someone else out because of your insecurity is unethical.
I just don't see what the big deal is. Who cares, nobody is saying we should be forcing churches to marry whoever. It's more of a matter of getting the same legal benefits and responsibilities. To the state, marriage has nothing to do with religion, it's just a contract between three parties. As far as military policy, I believe it should be an internal matter left up to the DoD to decide. I'm not a member of the military and therefore do not believe it is my place to interject on the matter
Let me just sum up the anti-DADTers in here. TRANSLATION: "Because I want a job that has rules that I don't want to follow - you MUST hire me and change your rules!"
Well how do you think a military personnel who happens to be gay, or bi hears and sees flamboyant anti-gay jokes and uprofessional remarks like "THAT'S SO GAY" feel? Are the GBLT suppose to be okay with that? Where's the fainess and freedom in all this? I'm in the military, my co-workers know I'm gay, and yet everytime I hear anti-gay jokes, remarks, and unprofessional attitudes, it really hurts. I fight for freedom too, I pay taxes too, I'm physcially & mentally eligible too, I'm human too...
Okay 68chargerlover, tell me why our allies such as Mexico, UK, Australia, Philippines, Israel, Spain, France, New Zealand, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Canada, etc. don't seem to have a problem with unit cohesion with openly Gays & Lesbians in their respective military? And why is that US standards of Gays in the mlitary fall in the same standards ironically with Saudi Arabia, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Egypt, Cuba, and Russia?
It bothers me that you think it's fair to kick a gay person out of the military because a few straight people might have a problem with cohabitation. Like I said, I think that if they have a problem with that, then they can excercise their own options. Find another roomate, request a transfer, learn to deal with it or don't join the military. They have options, the gay person right now doesn't. They have to be kicked out because someone else is uncomfortable with them? That's simply not fair!
You are suggesting that we are not professional enough by saying that people in our military couldn't handle gays in their units. That is what you said. Other countries don't have this problem because they are trained professionals (which I thought we were too). Apparently, you don't think so.
"Did you take the time to read the arguments and counterarguments?" Maybe a little... Except there's a difference between segregating the sexes and automatically firing someone for being gay. I have no problem with giving the homophobes the ability to shower at different times from everyone else. That said, DADT does not stop the gay soldier from checking out other soldiers when he thinks no one is looking.
"Straights feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gays" No, YOU feel uncomfortable undressing around gays. And if that's the case, YOU should not join the military. Either that, or YOU should get over it. The point is, that's YOUR problem, not the gays, and not the other straights that don't have a problem with it, so why are THEY discriminated against because of YOUR issue with them? I rest MY case!
What is long term to you? Like I said Britain, Canada, Austraila, and Israel all nixed their gay bans in the 90s. Is America the Beautiful going to be the country that no longer does things first, but instead just watch?
Morality means doing the right thing, period. Homophobia is wrong, prejudice and injustice are wrong. Therefore anyone who champions those things is also wrong. I already explained why you can't equate the different sexes with sexual orientation as it pertains to this argument. You simply ignored it. But again since it doesn't equate, there is no comparrison here. I have to go to work now, so I'll have to continue this later.
I guess the military should allow convicted felons to serve as officers too. While we're at it we should let people with cerybral palsy become fighter pilots....wouldn't want to discriminate ya know /sarc
@TMBrd89 love the ad hominum attack, btw, really strengthens your position and shows your maturity. Actually, you made my point for me. We should repeal dadt and require women to live and bath with men. Co-ed all the way. Actually the point you seem to be making is that a sexual deviant has more self control than a normal man? Maybe something got lost in translation. By all means oh wizard oh wise one, please educate po' lil ole me.
Well I guess you had a bad experience in the Army and I'm sorry about that. I'm in the Air Force and for the better part of my career, it's been a good experience. Like I said, I've seen good men get kicked out for what I think is a BS reason and hopefully Obama makes good on his efforts. But he's been making this claim for a while now and so far nothing. Talk is talk and when people are still being discharged everyday because of DADT, then that talk isn't much good. It's way too much politics!
So let me get this straight, since gays are a minority that makes discrimination okay? Is that really what you're saying here? It's okay to discriminate as long as it's done to a minority?
@TMBrd89 I don't deny that I categorize homosexuality as A: genetic defect (creating a barrier to procreation which in nature causes this behavior to stop showing up except as a display of dominance/submission in pack animals) B: brain damage (would explain why natural urges for the opposit sex are suppressed/supplanted) or C: sexual deviance (similar in nature to any number of fetishes). I'm more than happy to debate the nature/cause of the behavior and it's effect without personal insults. U?
You keep trying to equate gays serving openly with women serving in the military but you haven't really thought that through. Women are not discriminated against for being women. With the exception of certain positions, they are allowed to serve as women. They can live their lives in private and still serve. Gays cannot so there is no comparrison here. There is no evidence that open gays would damage morale, therefore ending discrimination for the good of the mission should be a priority.
@TMBrd89 And I'll confess my biggest....hell my only real problem with homosexuals in the military is being forced to live with them, whether I like it or not. Working for, with, or over them doesn't bother me one little bit. It's not about fear, it's about being required, yet again, to sacrifice what I remain convinced is good, moral, and just, in favor of what, in the end, is mere political theater. Another dog and pony show by people that don't care, they just want to buy your vote regardless
And you know what happened in 1992 when Clinton and the Joint Chiefs of Staff on the decision of allowing homosexuals to serve openly? Think about your comment about separate shower, eat and sleep faciltites, what do you suppose that is called?
Women can't serve in combat units or aboard submarines. Most people are cool with that. I would even be cool with limiting gays from serving in those positions for the same reasons. But to say that they can't even serve at all if they are out is just wrong. The particulars of habitation and job limitations could be addressed at a later time. One thing at a time, first let's be fair and allow them to serve without lying to people.
@TMBrd89 cont... As far as gay bars...I'm not going to say anything's wrong with them, I just wish they were labeled better. Some friends and I got bum gouge about a place in Wilmington called Ibiza's. "Best kept secret in Wilmington" and "Girls everywhere." Yea. I swear, the pool tables were extra low, walls painted purple, glow in the dark stars everywhere, love seats...I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong untill I saw a dude kiss the guy next to him. I've never run so fast...lol
So, your philosophy is that fairness and equality are WRONG then? If that's the case, then I can see why we have a fundamental disagreement about many things. To answer your question, being fair is ALWAYS the right thing to do. I'm pretty sure that JESUS would agree with me since you claim to value his teachings.
this what really gets to me y in the hell do we have to know that you are gay do you know that in the Military you have peoeple that are to Religion and that well beat you up or killl you thats what the the gay lift do not do not understand about this issue do anyone of you? tell me
Basic Human rights to our soldiers? What the fuck? Have you ever been in the military? It's not like being on a fucking high school volley ball team buddy.
You didn't poke a hole in anything. All you did was display your own insecurities about gays. Sorry to break it to you but YOU don't represent most folks in the military. I am ALSO speaking from personal experiences (in case you didn't pick that up from my handle) and I guarantee you that you represent the minority, NOT the majority!
@TMBrd89 I can respect the fact that you disagree, and I'm willing to debate on the meets, but I'm curious as to why you keep trying to provoke me? Responding in kind to your insults is beneath me and would only help you paint me as some homophobic bigoted coward. I assure you that, based on others I've debated (successfully, I feel), there are more than enough points for you to make on the merits without reducing yourself to these...insults. Have some self respect.
@nov284 I must admit gay bars suck. They are boring and strangely decorated. People who should never dance, dance and do it horribly. However, as far as the military goes, it is all about telling gays that they can't. When you do that to anyone. It makes them want it even more. Especially when it is a right of passage such as being in the army, getting married, and adopting kids. It has all the marks of saying you aren't good enough.
You know, you keep repeating yourself with this 'forcing down the throats" scenario, and it's a bit annoying. If you wish to repeat yourself, even though I've explained to that Gays & Lesbians are much more mature than you think, I'll play your game. So our allies like UK, Israel, Mexico, Japan, France, Philippines, Germany, etc, don't seem to have any problems of unit cohesion. You're logic is unfounded, especially due to the fact that there are gays presently in the military.
Dude please go back to school or something...your comment is so lacking in credibility that it actually makes people dumber reading it. You undermine our glorious military by not allowing people to serve openly. You would rather soldiers lie to their superior officers. That's disgraceful sir. Former Marine?!!? Apparently bootcamp didn't teach you enough that you honor and respect your fellow soldiers while serving your country. Please reconsider your thought process...
Again, your words like every other anti-DADTer show complete lack of understanding of the United States Military. Being in the military is not the same as being a civilian. I could maybe under stand better changing the rules if it wasn't voluntary but it is. Follow the rules or GTFO. Don't expect everyone to change their rules because you want to flaunt your deviancy. You also realize that an Officer can be imprisoned for adultry as well don't you?
You are great Patrick Murphy! A very honorable and tough man.
The last time I checked, we lived in a democracy. I am almost positive that I fight to maintain democracy! Democracy is about what the majority wants. The majority wants to allow gays to serve openly in the military. Nuff said!
I'm a military member who happens to be a forced closeted gay man. The Don't Ask Don't Tell doesn't stop the homophobe hateful remarks, jokes, comments, suggestions, sexual innuendos, etc, towards the GLBT community. And if I say anything at all to ask them to stop, they'd file papers to have me discharged...very discriminating, and the military gets away with it. It's hard having to fight two wars: Iraq & the hate within my military.
I already tried explaining that to him but he simply doesn't get it!
Yeah, my buddy who I work with is actually former Army infantry. He prefers the Air Force, but even the AF isn't for everybody. I've seen quite a number of people get out after 4 years because they hated it. The military just isn't for everybody.
No one is perfect.
They can't talk about what they won't stop doing.
Does anybody know the results to this hearing?
How so?
Eh Gads! Donnelly got her head ripped off. Thank you Rep. Murphy for putting that whole stupid law into perspective. Thank you for serving.
Very good point. Couldn't have said it better myself. Comraderie based on sexual orientation is as shallow as comraderie based on faith.
@theesch Explain, if you can, exactly how is the DADT policy unconstitutional?
I was just asking. I heard it somewhere.
It's not about forcing anything down someone's throat. It's about being given their due rights as tax-paying American citizens, and be left alone to serve professionally in the military. Is that so hard to do? Is it so hard to leave a person of whom you don't like, to merely leave them alone to do their job right?
Privacy is not a priority in the military. We don't always have the luxury of privacy. Usually we do and usually privacy is not a problem. In the cases where there is none, you suck it up and deal with it. You don't kick certain people out because of it, that's ridiculous!
How noble! Republic vs Democrasy (within the realm of this discussion = semantics). Don't try to get fancy, you know what I'm talking about. And you can't justify your argument either way from that standpoint. Speaking of what is RIGHT, I always thought what's fairness and equality was right.
"Modesty issue? But it isn't a modesty issue when 2 gay guys are sharing a bunk (it is possible)?"
No, that's not a modesty issue. In fact, there is NO issue there as long as there is no misconduct.
"Yes it is a perception issue but a deterrent as well"
What exactly does that mean? Deterrent to what? To whom?
3. No. I'm saying that men and women should be professional enough to work with each other regardless of sexuality. It's pretty simple actually and happens all the time.
and even in our own society where you can still be discriminated against, ostracized and even murdered for being gay, why in the world would someone choose that
3. (con't) Most people (gay and straight) think it's unfair and wrong. The only thing that kicking that individual out usually does is "weaken" the team and lower moral. It does not benefit the military in any way to discharge a fighter pilot, an Arabic linguist or a field medic because of their sexuality. It's ridiculous and it hurts the mission! This is the irony because the justification for DADT is to preserve "unit cohesion" and moral. There is nothing to support that at all!
I would enlist, but like Rush Limbaugh during the Vietnam draft I've got an anal cyst that makes me 4-F.
It hurts. Should I do oxies for the pain?
And I'm saying that separating them is unnecessary. The military has rules against misconduct (discrimination, sexual harrassment and sexual assault). If military personal are in fact "professionals" then there is no reason to seperate gays and straights. Again, most people are fine with this idea. Every other military has openly gay soldiers and it works! There is no discrimination against straights because they will still have the option of coming in and serving.
(con...) Fairness and equality has everything to do with it. How great is a soldiers morale going to be if you are constantly under threat of being discharged?
Every single proponent of DADT has never, EVER been forced to remain secretive of their personal life. They don't mind it, in short, because it does not inconvenience them. Change DADT to include everyone in the military, and I bet that tune will change right quick.
I'm not an officer, that's just my handle. If you must know, I'm a Tech Sergeant in the Air Force and I've been in for 12 years. I've had gay co-workers before. One guy I found out about after he separated. Another got kicked out because he was outed. They were both good troops and kicking them out did no good for morale or unit cohesion. So I've actually witnessed this happen before. That's why its so ridiuculous and needs to stop.
You could say the same about when both blacks and women were let into the armed forces.
Modest doesn't apply to members of the same sex. Men don't strip in front of women because it's usually embarrassing and uncomfortable for BOTH parties and vice versa and would constitute sexual harrassment. A male stripping on the company of another male is not sexual harrassment unless there is misconduct involved. There is no modesty issue with the same sex (regardless of sexuality). So it's a big difference. In addition seperation by orientation is not feasable, nor is it necessary.
They're not talking about any specific acts, just orientation.
BTW, it's deviant not deviate.
Most military personnel are not bothered with working with a flamboyant (manly) , and working with a masculine guy who happens to be gay/ . It's the flamboyant feminine gays and male transexuals they'd rather not work with. I know because I'm bi, and I did a little personal research on this. Still, anyone should have the right to serve their country openly, freely, and without discrimination.
@boatstaylor It is not the position of the federal government to dictate ideology to any of its employees; whether it be citizen or soldier. Homosexuality is a sexual preference; it does not dictate behavior, and even if it did, it is not the position of government to question it.
Denial of privacy? Are you serious? That's part of being in the military. Sometimes there is no privacy. We are all used to dealing with that. You deal with that from day one (basic training).
We also had laws that said black people were property, would you support those if they weren't deemed unconstitutional?
Isn't the rate of class transition actually fairly low from generation to generation? Like in the single digits?
"unwanted sexual tension" - If there is any sexual tension, it's because they created it themself or it's all in their mind. Why should a gay person have to pay for someone elses sexual tension problem? If a straight person is not professional enough to handle the fact that someone they work with is gay, then THEY can get out (or choose not to join). Why does the gay person (who's done nothing wrong) be kicked out?
@MrConcrete71179 Thanks Mr. Concrete. I totally agree with you! I'm very pissed about this whole situation and it's not gonna last. This whole repeal is a joke.
And for the rape in the military, what do you suppose will happen to the individual(s) who are caught and/or accused of rape, gay or straight? Think about it.
What branch of service did she serve?
@chickenbuttguesswhat Well, DADT has been repealed. Goes to tell those people who are ignorant how their voice was really heard.
The old policy had the US Military actively seeking out homosexuals and discharging them.
@JimmyFormerMarine if these were valid reasons to impeach, bush would have been gone a LONGGG time ago
Obviously that's wrong, but sexual conduct is against military policy regardless of who the people are.
Someone tell me why our allies such as Mexico, UK, Australia, Philippines, Israel, Spain, France, New Zealand, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Canada, etc. don't seem to have a problem with unit cohesion with openly Gays & Lesbians in their respective military? And why is that US standards of Gays in the mlitary fall in the same standards ironically with Saudi Arabia, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Egypt, Cuba, and Russia?
If you can pass the training, then you should be fit to fight, physically and mentally, if a gay guy is tough enough to pass marine boot camp or even SEAL training, then he is suited to fight.
Not being paid to do that? So are you telling me in downtime no straight soldiers ever talk about their wives or children? Put any pictures up of the girlfriends they have back home? Talk about their high school sweethearts?
Being openly gay does not mean pushing it anyone's faces. It just means not having to repress the person that you are.
"The very fact that I KNOW I am serving with a bunch of homosexuals adds an EXTRA stress that isn't needed" - And who's fault is that? The gay person or yours? If you have a problem with it, then it's your problem. Why do they get punished because of your insecurity about them?
@streetswell Oh, by the way, or I'd have tacked it onto my last post. "made an example of" is such a nice euphamism for having your life ruined, your civil liberties stricken, your job opportunities torched, for reacting in, I would argue, the natural way (for a class A personality) to a leering dude you have zero chance to avoid.
"The fact that gays are serving is a privelege enough" - well, frankly that is your own opinion. I, along with most American citizens respectfully disagree. Imposing that kind of limitation on people simply because of their sexuality is unjust discrimination as far as I view it. That a capable and needed soldier can be kicked out simply for being outed sexually is a disgrace. The military IS weakening itself by discharging able bodied servicemembers. Over 12,000 lost since 1993 for this reason.
This is such a painfully obvious 'non-issue.' WHY isn't Obama doing anything about it? We allow it, and our military hasn't fallen apart! (UK)
@lizzarddawg Your point being what, exactly?
Okay the let me rephrase, prejudice! Does that work better? In the case of mentally or physically disabled, legal discrimination makes since because they can't do the job. No business would hire a person incapable of doing the job would they? However, if they tried to avoid hiring (or firing) someone because of their sexuality or race or religion, it'd be a class a lawsuit now wouldn't it.
@streetswell cont.... surrounded by any group of people at all. Suffice to say I don't trust your average person much further than I can see him, and I don't trust your average Marine even that far. Something about changing the rules of engagement, spreading dis-information, and Strategically Transfering Equipment to an Alternate Location.
Segregate? What purpose would that serve? Segregating the sexes is already a reality and technically feasible. Separating people by sexuality is not feasible and it's also pointless according to most people in the military (they've done polls on this by the way). The military allegedly has a ZERO TOLORANCE policy against discrimination and sexual harrassment, so that renders your statement completely inaccurate!
@AnthemicPolemic Actually, it's not hate. I don't have a problem in the world with people doing those things that make them happy, and I reject outright notion that the govt should try to regulate what happens between two consenting adults. My neigbors are lesbian, as is my sister inlaw. Another dude I grew up around turned out to be a pole smoker. I mock them all, good-naturedly, and get ribbed in turn. The difference is that I'm not required to shower or dress where they can watch.
@TMBrd89 True, I've mentioned my preference in the course of debate, but I don't dress in garrish clothing, put together a parade, and slam people on various sites because they disagree with me. Sometimes I wonder if the debate is about "equality" or rubbing the collective nose of straight people in all the perceived wrongs of the past. It may surprise you that I'm actually on (what I'll guess is) your side on gay marriage. State recognized unisex civil unions and the churches sort out marriage
No, we're just not into calling butt-seks normal.
Doesn't it speak volumes to you that, primarily, the people who are opposed to gay people in the military are ALSO opposed to same-sex marriage?
@TMBrd89 On a completely unrelated note, I have to confess. I like you. You're insulting, presumptuous, biased. But you're not stupid, merely ignorant and prejudiced by your environment. I'm sure the same could be said for me, probably worst. Well fought, worthy adversary.....
This whole issue with the showers is just really silly. Gays and straights in the military take open showers all the time and there are never any problems. Again, how would it be any different if the gay guy was out? What exactly has changed here and why would it damage unit cohesion. Nothing has changed except that you know something about them that you didn't know before. And if that causes a breakdown in morale, then its because of YOU, not the gay guy! Unless there is misconduct involved.
No it's not every straight soldiers problem, only the homophobic ones. And homophobia is simply another type of prejudice that the military would be better off without anyway. We're supposed to be professionals. If you can't understand what unethical is, then there is no way for me to make you understand. It's a very simple concept that most "good" people can grasp. People can use "fears" and "insecurities" to justify almost any injustice, but at the end of the day, it's about right and wrong.
No, it's not the gay guys problem. He doesn't have a problem, you do. You are the one that's stressed. He is just himself, gay. You are the one that has a problem with that, he doesn't. Therefore the problem is YOU, and if YOU are the problem you can deal with it in a number of ways. Don't join up, choose to get out, or learn to get over your prejudice. Kicking someone else out because of your insecurity is unethical.
I just don't see what the big deal is. Who cares, nobody is saying we should be forcing churches to marry whoever.
It's more of a matter of getting the same legal benefits and responsibilities. To the state, marriage has nothing to do with religion, it's just a contract between three parties.
As far as military policy, I believe it should be an internal matter left up to the DoD to decide. I'm not a member of the military and therefore do not believe it is my place to interject on the matter
Let me just sum up the anti-DADTers in here.
TRANSLATION: "Because I want a job that has rules that I don't want to follow - you MUST hire me and change your rules!"
Well how do you think a military personnel who happens to be gay, or bi hears and sees flamboyant anti-gay jokes and uprofessional remarks like "THAT'S SO GAY" feel? Are the GBLT suppose to be okay with that? Where's the fainess and freedom in all this? I'm in the military, my co-workers know I'm gay, and yet everytime I hear anti-gay jokes, remarks, and unprofessional attitudes, it really hurts. I fight for freedom too, I pay taxes too, I'm physcially & mentally eligible too, I'm human too...
thanks Patrick, Ms. Donnely is wack!
Okay 68chargerlover, tell me why our allies such as Mexico, UK, Australia, Philippines, Israel, Spain, France, New Zealand, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Canada, etc. don't seem to have a problem with unit cohesion with openly Gays & Lesbians in their respective military? And why is that US standards of Gays in the mlitary fall in the same standards ironically with Saudi Arabia, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Egypt, Cuba, and Russia?
It bothers me that you think it's fair to kick a gay person out of the military because a few straight people might have a problem with cohabitation. Like I said, I think that if they have a problem with that, then they can excercise their own options. Find another roomate, request a transfer, learn to deal with it or don't join the military. They have options, the gay person right now doesn't. They have to be kicked out because someone else is uncomfortable with them? That's simply not fair!
You are suggesting that we are not professional enough by saying that people in our military couldn't handle gays in their units. That is what you said. Other countries don't have this problem because they are trained professionals (which I thought we were too). Apparently, you don't think so.
Don't get be started on how pathetic your "military" has become.
"Did you take the time to read the arguments and counterarguments?"
Maybe a little...
Except there's a difference between segregating the sexes and automatically firing someone for being gay. I have no problem with giving the homophobes the ability to shower at different times from everyone else.
That said, DADT does not stop the gay soldier from checking out other soldiers when he thinks no one is looking.
lol, good one.
No offense, but why are you talking about all this stuff on a video about Don't Ask Don't Tell???
"Straights feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gays"
No, YOU feel uncomfortable undressing around gays. And if that's the case, YOU should not join the military. Either that, or YOU should get over it. The point is, that's YOUR problem, not the gays, and not the other straights that don't have a problem with it, so why are THEY discriminated against because of YOUR issue with them? I rest MY case!
What is long term to you? Like I said Britain, Canada, Austraila, and Israel all nixed their gay bans in the 90s. Is America the Beautiful going to be the country that no longer does things first, but instead just watch?
@streetswell ....water untill sharks show up then hop in with them to get a closer look.
Morality means doing the right thing, period. Homophobia is wrong, prejudice and injustice are wrong. Therefore anyone who champions those things is also wrong.
I already explained why you can't equate the different sexes with sexual orientation as it pertains to this argument. You simply ignored it. But again since it doesn't equate, there is no comparrison here. I have to go to work now, so I'll have to continue this later.
I guess the military should allow convicted felons to serve as officers too. While we're at it we should let people with cerybral palsy become fighter pilots....wouldn't want to discriminate ya know /sarc
@TMBrd89 love the ad hominum attack, btw, really strengthens your position and shows your maturity. Actually, you made my point for me. We should repeal dadt and require women to live and bath with men. Co-ed all the way. Actually the point you seem to be making is that a sexual deviant has more self control than a normal man? Maybe something got lost in translation. By all means oh wizard oh wise one, please educate po' lil ole me.
Well I guess you had a bad experience in the Army and I'm sorry about that. I'm in the Air Force and for the better part of my career, it's been a good experience. Like I said, I've seen good men get kicked out for what I think is a BS reason and hopefully Obama makes good on his efforts. But he's been making this claim for a while now and so far nothing. Talk is talk and when people are still being discharged everyday because of DADT, then that talk isn't much good. It's way too much politics!
So let me get this straight, since gays are a minority that makes discrimination okay? Is that really what you're saying here? It's okay to discriminate as long as it's done to a minority?
@TMBrd89 I don't deny that I categorize homosexuality as A: genetic defect (creating a barrier to procreation which in nature causes this behavior to stop showing up except as a display of dominance/submission in pack animals) B: brain damage (would explain why natural urges for the opposit sex are suppressed/supplanted) or C: sexual deviance (similar in nature to any number of fetishes). I'm more than happy to debate the nature/cause of the behavior and it's effect without personal insults. U?
You keep trying to equate gays serving openly with women serving in the military but you haven't really thought that through. Women are not discriminated against for being women. With the exception of certain positions, they are allowed to serve as women. They can live their lives in private and still serve. Gays cannot so there is no comparrison here. There is no evidence that open gays would damage morale, therefore ending discrimination for the good of the mission should be a priority.
@TMBrd89 And I'll confess my biggest....hell my only real problem with homosexuals in the military is being forced to live with them, whether I like it or not. Working for, with, or over them doesn't bother me one little bit. It's not about fear, it's about being required, yet again, to sacrifice what I remain convinced is good, moral, and just, in favor of what, in the end, is mere political theater. Another dog and pony show by people that don't care, they just want to buy your vote regardless
And you know what happened in 1992 when Clinton and the Joint Chiefs of Staff on the decision of allowing homosexuals to serve openly? Think about your comment about separate shower, eat and sleep faciltites, what do you suppose that is called?
@VeteranConservative 2.5% of military personnel are gay? How did you get that statistic?
Women can't serve in combat units or aboard submarines. Most people are cool with that. I would even be cool with limiting gays from serving in those positions for the same reasons. But to say that they can't even serve at all if they are out is just wrong. The particulars of habitation and job limitations could be addressed at a later time. One thing at a time, first let's be fair and allow them to serve without lying to people.
@TMBrd89 cont... As far as gay bars...I'm not going to say anything's wrong with them, I just wish they were labeled better. Some friends and I got bum gouge about a place in Wilmington called Ibiza's. "Best kept secret in Wilmington" and "Girls everywhere." Yea. I swear, the pool tables were extra low, walls painted purple, glow in the dark stars everywhere, love seats...I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong untill I saw a dude kiss the guy next to him. I've never run so fast...lol
So, your philosophy is that fairness and equality are WRONG then?
If that's the case, then I can see why we have a fundamental disagreement about many things. To answer your question, being fair is ALWAYS the right thing to do. I'm pretty sure that JESUS would agree with me since you claim to value his teachings.
this what really gets to me y in the hell do we have to know that you are gay do you know that in the Military you have peoeple that are to Religion and that well beat you up or killl you thats what the the gay lift do not do not understand about this issue do anyone of you? tell me
Basic Human rights to our soldiers? What the fuck? Have you ever been in the military? It's not like being on a fucking high school volley ball team buddy.
You didn't poke a hole in anything. All you did was display your own insecurities about gays. Sorry to break it to you but YOU don't represent most folks in the military. I am ALSO speaking from personal experiences (in case you didn't pick that up from my handle) and I guarantee you that you represent the minority, NOT the majority!
@TMBrd89 I can respect the fact that you disagree, and I'm willing to debate on the meets, but I'm curious as to why you keep trying to provoke me? Responding in kind to your insults is beneath me and would only help you paint me as some homophobic bigoted coward. I assure you that, based on others I've debated (successfully, I feel), there are more than enough points for you to make on the merits without reducing yourself to these...insults. Have some self respect.
@nov284 I must admit gay bars suck. They are boring and strangely decorated. People who should never dance, dance and do it horribly. However, as far as the military goes, it is all about telling gays that they can't. When you do that to anyone. It makes them want it even more. Especially when it is a right of passage such as being in the army, getting married, and adopting kids. It has all the marks of saying you aren't good enough.
You know, you keep repeating yourself with this 'forcing down the throats" scenario, and it's a bit annoying. If you wish to repeat yourself, even though I've explained to that Gays & Lesbians are much more mature than you think, I'll play your game. So our allies like UK, Israel, Mexico, Japan, France, Philippines, Germany, etc, don't seem to have any problems of unit cohesion. You're logic is unfounded, especially due to the fact that there are gays presently in the military.
Dude please go back to school or something...your comment is so lacking in credibility that it actually makes people dumber reading it.
You undermine our glorious military by not allowing people to serve openly. You would rather soldiers lie to their superior officers. That's disgraceful sir.
Former Marine?!!? Apparently bootcamp didn't teach you enough that you honor and respect your fellow soldiers while serving your country.
Please reconsider your thought process...
Again, your words like every other anti-DADTer show complete lack of understanding of the United States Military. Being in the military is not the same as being a civilian. I could maybe under stand better changing the rules if it wasn't voluntary but it is. Follow the rules or GTFO. Don't expect everyone to change their rules because you want to flaunt your deviancy.
You also realize that an Officer can be imprisoned for adultry as well don't you?