This is on tape, so it's no secret, but I felt that Scott choked up a bit when he first mentioned the date of his father's passing. Made me think a bit. My Dad is still alive, 82, and not one folks would expect to last to that age, so Scott's reaction sort of got to me. Sad for him, happy my Dad's alive, reminded I may feel like him, and who knows when... Reality seeps through the whisky review. Real people you guys are... Thanks. A great review!
I am heading to a Balvenie tasting tonight and as Scott honoured his dad with the PortWood, I too will honour my amazing dad in a similar fashion. My father is rapidly reaching his passage from this Life and as his caregiver of the last five years, I want to be reminded that my dad started me on my love of “the wee dram”. Thanks, guys for the best reviews on YT. This one was really special.
Good one, guys... I have enjoyed every expression of The Balvenie that I have ever tried. Maybe I'll get a bottle of this for my 60th birthday in eight years' time, or maybe when I retire at age 67 LOL Right now, I'm about to crack a bottle of Bell's.
My how the price has changed in 6 years. I just picked up a bottle of this at Total Wine and More in Laurel, Maryland (7/23/2023), and it was $348.79 including tax.
My sincere condolences as to your father's passing. He was clearly a man of character, and he raised a good one. I just put the Norlan glasses on backorder. I have to try it out. Love the design, but I also love those Glen Cairn's. I'm a big fan of the Balvenie product, but this one looks real special. I lost my Dad at 14 years. This one touched me.
The first time I had this was at a cigar bar. First drink before a cigar and it blew me away. First thing I nosed was wine. Struck me immediately. My friend bought a bottle some time later and it's one of my current favorites. Such a treat! Every Scotch that night after this one paled in comparison.
Great rundown on the Norlans; might have to add a set to my Christmas wishlist. Loved the stories about your dad. I lost mine 3 years ago; he helped give me my love for whiskey (he singlehandedly kept Jim Beam in business), so I always think of him when I watch your reviews. Slainte!
Just finished watching this second time around and your story-telling at the end just killed me. The car in the driveway, the heat, the pushing and heaving, the screaming out "block it" - it all just made such a wonderful scene, and all the more poignant with Scot's dad joining in the "fun". But Scot, you've done him proud with your choice. A very fine dram indeed, and it's a great way to remember him. My dad distilled his own whisky with a small DIY distillation kit. We toasted his memory with his best home-made bottle at the reception after the funeral. Just lovely in every sense of the word. Lads - keep on keeping on. You're a joy to watch. Cheers!
I’ve seen mixed reviews on this whisky, but I concur with your assessment. I love this whisky and think it gets better with the bottle having been opened for weeks or months. No degradation- just gets better. I just bought another bottle as current one is getting low. I paid $235. If you like this whisky, I suggest trying the Bunnahabhain XVIII 18 yo Speyside.
Glencairn glasses are crystal glass, which gives them that heaviness and the distinctive ringing "ting" when you touch edges. The Norlan are probably made from a more typical potash glass.
Had the Balvenie 21 in chill filtered and non chill filtered, they are two completely different animals. Besides the alcohol % difference, the non chilled gets significantly better with the oxidation process.
The travel retail version of Balvenie Portwood 21 is bottled at 47.6%. US is 43%. Meanwhile the UK version is 40%. So it's really unusual to see a single malt that is bottled at THREE different strengths.
I think you did the Portwood justice. Can't believe it's over a year since your father's passing Scott. Makes brunch last Saturday to celebrate my father's 85th even more special. I had Ledaig BTW (Peated Tobermory)
We got lucky enough to have a one on one tasting with Balvenie Manager during our holiday single Malt Tour a few years ago. He had 9 bottles lined up, wish I could share the picture. Yes, my husband was in heaven! I am thinking of getting him the Nolan...
Another great review! I think what I enjoy the most, besides your whiskey choices, is the comradarie and genuine friendship between the two of you. I'd def want to have drinks with y'all sometime! Sláinte!
Balvenie has a 12, 14 and the 21, 12 and 14, about 50.00 and 62.00 each respectively, great taste not to different if U ask me but the 21, boy, will knock your socks off, price 260.00, I've polished off 2, one for my 50th and one for a wedding, U will not be disappointed, mark my Words!
Great reviews guys. Interesting that I`ve only had the 40% of that Balvenie Port Wood which in my opinion has the best nose and tasting Scotch I`ve ever had the pleasure of tasting. The only thing is despite having a warm finish but it was relatively short and I wished that it had a higher ABV like a 43% - 48%. Surprised to find that out. Thank you for the feedback Scotch Test Dummies.
I read a lot of reviews that the nose is incredible from the Tomatin 14 year Port finish kind of like the Balvenie Portwood but where the Balvenie Portwood is smooth, mouthwatering, sweet and subtle, the Tomatin is apparently really strong, spicy, oaky and unbalanced in comparaison. Is that what you guys also experienced as well?
Are port cask finished whisky's using Tawny port Or Ruby Port casks? A big difference in flavors. Which port did you taste and what kind of port did Balvenie use in the 21 yr port cask?
Without looking further at this point, all it says on the packaging is "finished in Portwood Port Casks". We will have to take a look at the different Port wines and see what the difference is. Thanks Corey.
cherry nibbs! i always bring up cherry nibbs with a few of my fav whiskeys. first time ive heard it ever brought up outside of me telling my friends. thank you
LOL I'm glad you guys have him on speed dial. ;) I reached out to the regional reps on Twitter and they say there's nothing they can do. Stupid BC Liquor Distribution Branch!
Nice review. You've got me excited to try the bottle I have stashed away. I'm saving it till my new bar is built...a few months away. How does the Norlan compare price wise to the glencairn?
Excellent call on the Portwood for the Bar opening. I think the Norlan is going to be a little bit more than Glencairns. On Kickstarter i want to say they were $35 or 40 for two glasses which is a little cheaper than they are going to be retail.
Once again, you guys have come up with a very enjoyable and informative review. I really enjoyed your thoughts about the Norlan Glass. When I watched the promotional videos on youtube my first thoughts were, gimmick and capitalizing on the increasing popularity of whisky drinking. I am still riding the fence on it, but I do appreciate what you had to say about it. As for the Balvenie 21yo, it must be an amazing dram, but I don't think I could even put it on a wish list for its price point. As for a comment made earlier, I also saw the reviews who call themselves Scotch 4 Dummies. I haven't watched their reviews yet, but I am glad to keep up being a subscriber to your videos.
Thanks Andrew...we have not heard of the Scotch 4 Dummies channel. Awful close to our name but just guessing they don't dress like old men, have cousin's that sing like angels or do Scotch Yoga in a tight shirt with a body not meant for either...who can compete with that????????????????
I suspect that they don't add in theatricals into thir reviews.. Oh wait, neither do you two. HA! I am looking forward to your reviews. Two notes: I did pick up a bottle of the Nikka Taketsuru Pure Malt (NAS) along with a bottle Evan Williams White Label Bottled in Bond. I am not sure if I will pick up the Old Grandad yet. Keep up the good work!
I have watched a few of the 4 dummies videos. They're a little different for me with a little too much going on, but still I wish them good luck. Scott
I just checked them out (Bart). They seem very knowledgable. I watched their Port Charlotte review and totally agree, especially with the Octomore comment about how much peat there is but that it doesn't taste all that peaty. They are fun, I think Scott and I would love to have a dram with that group.
Just different. It will take a little getting used to. I actually prefer the feel of the Rocks type glass over the Glencairn. We will continue to test the two glasses and maybe do a side by side video.
If you don't mind my opinion, to me, I didn't get the same nose as I would from the glencairn so it wasn't my fave. It's very light and fits in my hand nicely, I'd use it w whiskeys I'm familiar with but not with something I've not tried before :)
Thinking about buying this bottle @ $200 to open and share on the eve of my oldest sons wedding in April. (BTW- His Age Statement is also 21 y/o.) Do you support this decision? Or any other recommendations? PS- Is it bad form for me to keep the remainder of the bottle at my house once the celebration is over?
I like it. Great idea. BTW- Have you ever tried Hibiki 12 y/o? I stumbled across it (At a bar in Wichita no-less) a few weeks back. Didn't know anything about it and was blown away. Some of your tasting notes on this bottle (Berry's, tangerine etc.) I had on the Hibiki. Anyway, you should check it out. Cheers.
thanks brad, we've not had the Hibiki 12. I've seen it locally still on the shelf (its been replaced by the NAS Harmony). Been thinking about picking one up.
I would try one glass before buying several. Its as if you love Pepsi and someone gives you a Coke for the first time. The coke is good, but you're used to the Pepsi. Its a little different then the Glencairn. I really would like it better if it was a little heftier especially at the base. Scott
Thanks for another fun review guys. To me, the 21 YO Balvenie just doesn't satisfy. I am slightly disappointed by this one. It should nose and taste older than it does. It is good, but due to cost it is not an expression I seek.
I got my Norlans through last week. I do notice a difference when you give the whisky a swirl. The fins inside the bowl aerate the dram quicker than a Glencairn, apparently. Have done a few side-by-sides and I do get a difference. I don't think whisky noses quite as well in a Norlan, though. Will need to drink more whisky... all in the name of science!
Great review and great memories of your Dad. Thanks for sharing and sorry for your loss. BTW... Do I spy the Whistlepig in the background?! Test iiiiiiiiit!!
Cool Norlan looking glasses, but I would pass on them because the rim is to thick to the lips. I like Glencairn glasses, just have to pucker your lips and your nose is fine. Now the Balvenie 21 I've had and is very good. My price was $200 and I think that is a little high. Before I consider buying it again, I will seek other bottles first. Sorry to hear about your dad passing, my dad passed Jan 2015. Life is short, so enjoy what you can. Great review.
Why dont you noobs use some wine preserver gas to seal off your bottles. It works, ive used it for years. Buy it off amazon or at a wine shop. Works better than messing with bottle stoppers or little bottles.
Eric I will deal with you later!! LOL. good review guys! I do believe there is a higher strength version of the Balvenie 21 Portwood, but it's only available in duty free. I would love to see that bottle!
If we were just lawyers! I've watched a few of their videos and wish them luck. I find their videos a little overwhelming with too much going on. Seem like good guys.
This is on tape, so it's no secret, but I felt that Scott choked up a bit when he first mentioned the date of his father's passing. Made me think a bit. My Dad is still alive, 82, and not one folks would expect to last to that age, so Scott's reaction sort of got to me. Sad for him, happy my Dad's alive, reminded I may feel like him, and who knows when... Reality seeps through the whisky review. Real people you guys are...
Thanks. A great review!
From Bart. Thanks Raster. His Dad was good people.
I am heading to a Balvenie tasting tonight and as Scott honoured his dad with the PortWood, I too will honour my amazing dad in a similar fashion. My father is rapidly reaching his passage from this Life and as his caregiver of the last five years, I want to be reminded that my dad started me on my love of “the wee dram”. Thanks, guys for the best reviews on YT. This one was really special.
Just bought a bottle of this. More than I’d normally would pay but I like Balvenie and my Glan Moray 25 yo Portwood.
Good one, guys... I have enjoyed every expression of The Balvenie that I have ever tried. Maybe I'll get a bottle of this for my 60th birthday in eight years' time, or maybe when I retire at age 67 LOL Right now, I'm about to crack a bottle of Bell's.
This would be a great bottle for your 53rd Birthday!
Now *there's* a thought...
My how the price has changed in 6 years. I just picked up a bottle of this at Total Wine and More in Laurel, Maryland (7/23/2023), and it was $348.79 including tax.
quite an increase for sure.
You cant go wrong with any Balvenie and I had no idea about the new glasses.Great review guys,cheers.
Thanks Morris! We agree about the Balvenie!
I just got this for my dad for his birthday. AMAZING flavor.
great bottle, thanks Michael.
Well done lads. When I forget what you are reviewing and still enjoy that's a good sign.
Thanks Triplecap, great compliment. Thanks for viewing and commenting.
My sincere condolences as to your father's passing. He was clearly a man of character, and he raised a good one. I just put the Norlan glasses on backorder. I have to try it out. Love the design, but I also love those Glen Cairn's. I'm a big fan of the Balvenie product, but this one looks real special. I lost my Dad at 14 years. This one touched me.
Wow, at 14 years Sal. Sorry about that, it's rough whenever it happens but when you are so young...
The first time I had this was at a cigar bar. First drink before a cigar and it blew me away. First thing I nosed was wine. Struck me immediately. My friend bought a bottle some time later and it's one of my current favorites. Such a treat! Every Scotch that night after this one paled in comparison.
Excellent way of putting it Richard!
Great rundown on the Norlans; might have to add a set to my Christmas wishlist. Loved the stories about your dad. I lost mine 3 years ago; he helped give me my love for whiskey (he singlehandedly kept Jim Beam in business), so I always think of him when I watch your reviews. Slainte!
thanks Kevin! Hope you have better luck with the Norlans than the Riedel's!
Just finished watching this second time around and your story-telling at the end just killed me. The car in the driveway, the heat, the pushing and heaving, the screaming out "block it" - it all just made such a wonderful scene, and all the more poignant with Scot's dad joining in the "fun". But Scot, you've done him proud with your choice. A very fine dram indeed, and it's a great way to remember him. My dad distilled his own whisky with a small DIY distillation kit. We toasted his memory with his best home-made bottle at the reception after the funeral. Just lovely in every sense of the word. Lads - keep on keeping on. You're a joy to watch. Cheers!
Thanks Russell!
Sorry to hear about your dad passing Scott, my condolences!
thank you Stephen.
Great video guys. Not convinced on these glasses.
I’ve seen mixed reviews on this whisky, but I concur with your assessment. I love this whisky and think it gets better with the bottle having been opened for weeks or months. No degradation- just gets better. I just bought another bottle as current one is getting low. I paid $235. If you like this whisky, I suggest trying the Bunnahabhain XVIII 18 yo Speyside.
Love Bunna 18! one of my favs! thanks lifebreath!
Scotch Test Dummies Me too!
Glencairn glasses are crystal glass, which gives them that heaviness and the distinctive ringing "ting" when you touch edges. The Norlan are probably made from a more typical potash glass.
Good call Peter.
Had the Balvenie 21 in chill filtered and non chill filtered, they are two completely different animals. Besides the alcohol % difference, the non chilled gets significantly better with the oxidation process.
Good to know Pband! Didn't even know both versions were out there.
The travel retail version of Balvenie Portwood 21 is bottled at 47.6%. US is 43%. Meanwhile the UK version is 40%. So it's really unusual to see a single malt that is bottled at THREE different strengths.
I think you did the Portwood justice. Can't believe it's over a year since your father's passing Scott. Makes brunch last Saturday to celebrate my father's 85th even more special. I had Ledaig BTW (Peated Tobermory)
Thanks Sam. My dad was 80 when he passed. We've had our eye on the Ledaig, but haven't picked it up yet. Scott
Love this one and Awesome Stories 👏👏👏🙏🙏🙏
thanks Shimon!
We got lucky enough to have a one on one tasting with Balvenie Manager during our holiday single Malt Tour a few years ago. He had 9 bottles lined up, wish I could share the picture. Yes, my husband was in heaven! I am thinking of getting him the Nolan...
Norlan, sorry for the typo.
Sounds like a good tasting!
Another great review! I think what I enjoy the most, besides your whiskey choices, is the comradarie and genuine friendship between the two of you. I'd def want to have drinks with y'all sometime! Sláinte!
Thanks Lana. Maybe one of these days we'll meet up! Drinks on us!
+Scotch Test Dummies I'd love that! ,)
Nice review. It's great but a little exxy for the 43% ABV. I would rather the 15yo Single Barrel Sherry Cask which is bottled at 47.8%.
and the 15 is less than 1/2 the price.
Scotch Test Dummies true dat.
Balvenie has a 12, 14 and the 21, 12 and 14, about 50.00 and 62.00 each respectively, great taste not to different if U ask me but the 21, boy, will knock your socks off, price 260.00, I've polished off 2, one for my 50th and one for a wedding, U will not be disappointed, mark my Words!
Very nice Martin! Thanks!
I really do love your reviews guys. You are always entertaining and educational at the same time. Plus, you make me want to out and buy that bottle :)
Go buy it Hamby! Thanks for all your support!
cracking show chaps! I sometimes use a good Belgian beer glass, great for nosing and rolling round in glass. keep up the good work gentlemen.
Thanks Matt!
Great reviews guys. Interesting that I`ve only had the 40% of that Balvenie Port Wood which in my opinion has the best nose and tasting Scotch I`ve ever had the pleasure of tasting. The only thing is despite having a warm finish but it was relatively short and I wished that it had a higher ABV like a 43% - 48%. Surprised to find that out. Thank you for the feedback Scotch Test Dummies.
The 21 Portwood is delicious. A good $50 contender is the Tomatin 14 year Port finish.
I read a lot of reviews that the nose is incredible from the Tomatin 14 year Port finish kind of like the Balvenie Portwood but where the Balvenie Portwood is smooth, mouthwatering, sweet and subtle, the Tomatin is apparently really strong, spicy, oaky and unbalanced in comparaison. Is that what you guys also experienced as well?
check out our Port Menage Trois with the side by side!
Are port cask finished whisky's using Tawny port Or Ruby Port casks? A big difference in flavors.
Which port did you taste and what kind of port did Balvenie use in the 21 yr port cask?
The Glendronach 15 yr tawny port finish is also very good!!
Without looking further at this point, all it says on the packaging is "finished in Portwood Port Casks". We will have to take a look at the different Port wines and see what the difference is. Thanks Corey.
cherry nibbs! i always bring up cherry nibbs with a few of my fav whiskeys. first time ive heard it ever brought up outside of me telling my friends. thank you
your suspicions are confirmed! Cherry Nibbs!
Good call..I love me some Cherry Nibbs.
I use the inert gas "wine save" can when the bottle gets low
I just watched Ralfy's review where he talks about that.
Hey guys what’s ur top 20 Scotches
Oh boy. Bart here. I don’t know if I could give you 20. We do have several Top 5’s out there.
This is my absolute favourite scotch. It's a shame it's unavailable in Canada. Unbelievably smooth. On the nose, I get cellar wood, love that smell.
UNAVAILABLE IN CANADA???!!!!! we're going to call David Stewart. Thats unacceptable.
LOL I'm glad you guys have him on speed dial. ;) I reached out to the regional reps on Twitter and they say there's nothing they can do. Stupid BC Liquor Distribution Branch!
They don't want good scotch being imported?
The only Balvenie they carry is 12yr Doublewood. They will let me special order the 21yr Portwood, but it's a 5 case minimum order. :|
I think you should do it. 😀
Nice review. You've got me excited to try the bottle I have stashed away. I'm saving it till my new bar is built...a few months away.
How does the Norlan compare price wise to the glencairn?
Excellent call on the Portwood for the Bar opening. I think the Norlan is going to be a little bit more than Glencairns. On Kickstarter i want to say they were $35 or 40 for two glasses which is a little cheaper than they are going to be retail.
Once again, you guys have come up with a very enjoyable and informative review. I really enjoyed your thoughts about the Norlan Glass. When I watched the promotional videos on youtube my first thoughts were, gimmick and capitalizing on the increasing popularity of whisky drinking. I am still riding the fence on it, but I do appreciate what you had to say about it. As for the Balvenie 21yo, it must be an amazing dram, but I don't think I could even put it on a wish list for its price point.
As for a comment made earlier, I also saw the reviews who call themselves Scotch 4 Dummies. I haven't watched their reviews yet, but I am glad to keep up being a subscriber to your videos.
Thanks Andrew...we have not heard of the Scotch 4 Dummies channel. Awful close to our name but just guessing they don't dress like old men, have cousin's that sing like angels or do Scotch Yoga in a tight shirt with a body not meant for either...who can compete with that????????????????
I suspect that they don't add in theatricals into thir reviews.. Oh wait, neither do you two. HA! I am looking forward to your reviews. Two notes: I did pick up a bottle of the Nikka Taketsuru Pure Malt (NAS) along with a bottle Evan Williams White Label Bottled in Bond. I am not sure if I will pick up the Old Grandad yet. Keep up the good work!
I have watched a few of the 4 dummies videos. They're a little different for me with a little too much going on, but still I wish them good luck. Scott
I just checked them out (Bart). They seem very knowledgable. I watched their Port Charlotte review and totally agree, especially with the Octomore comment about how much peat there is but that it doesn't taste all that peaty. They are fun, I think Scott and I would love to have a dram with that group.
also, I don't know if anyone is adding the theatricals like us!
Excellent review! What was your final take on the Norlan Glasses? Are these glasses better than the Glencairn, or just different?
Just different. It will take a little getting used to. I actually prefer the feel of the Rocks type glass over the Glencairn. We will continue to test the two glasses and maybe do a side by side video.
If you don't mind my opinion, to me, I didn't get the same nose as I would from the glencairn so it wasn't my fave. It's very light and fits in my hand nicely, I'd use it w whiskeys I'm familiar with but not with something I've not tried before :)
I think the Glencairn gives a better nosing, but thats early on. We'll do some more testing before I make a final decision though. Scott
Thinking about buying this bottle @ $200 to open and share on the eve of my oldest sons wedding in April. (BTW- His Age Statement is also 21 y/o.) Do you support this decision? Or any other recommendations? PS- Is it bad form for me to keep the remainder of the bottle at my house once the celebration is over?
Great bottle. Tell him you will each share a dram on his wedding anniversary. Or buy two one for him and one for you
I like it. Great idea. BTW- Have you ever tried Hibiki 12 y/o? I stumbled across it (At a bar in Wichita no-less) a few weeks back. Didn't know anything about it and was blown away. Some of your tasting notes on this bottle (Berry's, tangerine etc.) I had on the Hibiki. Anyway, you should check it out. Cheers.
thanks brad, we've not had the Hibiki 12. I've seen it locally still on the shelf (its been replaced by the NAS Harmony). Been thinking about picking one up.
thanks for the shout-out guys. I was wondering why my number of views had spiked hahaha
Good! Keep it up!
Thx for this review!
...and the Norlan? Can you recommend it?
I would try one glass before buying several. Its as if you love Pepsi and someone gives you a Coke for the first time. The coke is good, but you're used to the Pepsi. Its a little different then the Glencairn. I really would like it better if it was a little heftier especially at the base. Scott
Thank you!
Thanks for another fun review guys. To me, the 21 YO Balvenie just doesn't satisfy. I am slightly disappointed by this one. It should nose and taste older than it does. It is good, but due to cost it is not an expression I seek.
Jamie Beavor above points out the Master of Malt has this for under $150.
Broke out the fancy stuff, cheers to you guys and to your Dad! RIP! I thought both your Dad's did the previous video.
True True Dan. That video was actually shot a long time ago in another galaxy.
if anyone wants a bottle of this excellent scotch.. master of malt has it for under $150.00..
Wow, great price. Will have to look into it.
I wish they shipped to Canada...
Keep in mind that is a 700 ml bottle and not 750 ml bottle we get in the US.
Literally an atrocity.
Damn!
I got my Norlans through last week. I do notice a difference when you give the whisky a swirl. The fins inside the bowl aerate the dram quicker than a Glencairn, apparently. Have done a few side-by-sides and I do get a difference. I don't think whisky noses quite as well in a Norlan, though. Will need to drink more whisky... all in the name of science!
Further the Science brother Munro...further the science.
Nice T-shirt with Gatos Locos
Crazy Cats are always a hit on the web
Great review and great memories of your Dad. Thanks for sharing and sorry for your loss. BTW... Do I spy the Whistlepig in the background?! Test iiiiiiiiit!!
Thanks Brad, and yes you do!
Cool Norlan looking glasses, but I would pass on them because the rim is to thick to the lips. I like Glencairn glasses, just have to pucker your lips and your nose is fine. Now the Balvenie 21 I've had and is very good. My price was $200 and I think that is a little high. Before I consider buying it again, I will seek other bottles first. Sorry to hear about your dad passing, my dad passed Jan 2015. Life is short, so enjoy what you can. Great review.
Thank you Keith!
This cost $300 now on sale. 😑 Delicious but overpriced now, unfortunately. Fun review btw made me lol
That’s one’s from the way back machine. Nice.
Why dont you noobs use some wine preserver gas to seal off your bottles. It works, ive used it for years. Buy it off amazon or at a wine shop. Works better than messing with bottle stoppers or little bottles.
we're going to have a show coming up on that very topic Craig!
Who the hell, in their right mind watches WhiskyDaddy. HAHAHAHA
He's your Daddy! 😀
Eric I will deal with you later!! LOL. good review guys! I do believe there is a higher strength version of the Balvenie 21 Portwood, but it's only available in duty free. I would love to see that bottle!
Uh-oh!!
+eric gilbert jk...your cool bud...got another big bookers coming soon!!
LOL! oh yes. Love me some Booker's.
I have never noticed that other group "scotch 4 dummies" until it appeared on the side of this video... Man, they basically stole y'alls name!
If we were just lawyers! I've watched a few of their videos and wish them luck. I find their videos a little overwhelming with too much going on. Seem like good guys.