I'm not worried about the future of Zelda, but I can see how someone could feel that way. Maybe its just me, because both Twilight Princess and TotK are now my favorite Zelda experiences. So i like the tradicional and open air aspect of Zelda. I have played almost all the dungeons in TotK, they are good and like a good mix of old and new, I feel they could get better at this. Even then, the bosses and mini bosses are really good (fighting gleeok is really good). So, for the future, they know what they are doing, don't see them making the errors of Ubisoft. And I was thinking, they could do it like Xenoblade, an extensive world (with sections) with a massive story. We just have to wait and see.
Taking inspiration from Xenoblade would be perfect! Xenoblade games have really awesome open worlds but on top of that really engaging stories. Even a game which is more open world/exploration focused like Xenoblade X still has a linear story to follow which limits progression at times.
@@nishquikpops yes, that's something I was thinking while playing TotK "How could they go from here?" And then remember that MonolithSoft also helps them with Zelda, and I imagined that the next game could be like that, I think it would be a great evolution; maybe I'm biased because both Xenoblade and Zelda are my favorite franchises
I ave played every zelda games since A link to past to Twilight i ad minish cap the gba a link to past ad phantom hourglass and then by Skyward sword spirit track i ad my fatigue botw draw me back in but i already miss the older formula again i really enjoyed BOTW but TOTK i cant Play it the building and fusing really make it unjoyable for me ENNIWAY i preferred the older more story oriented also keep the massive open world keep the RPG stuff keep the crafting but everything about the shrine the powers the survival aspect remove all that in Ocarina of time the idea of a weapon breaking was a joke but now is a mean feature ! Why Magic rod break wen i use it why the legendary master sword break!? Give back the dongeon and the items ben re playing Ocarina on my 3DS and just aving my boomerang return to me feel refreshing! To me BOTW or TOTK are spinoff they ave radically different style that the previous games Hyrule warriors or Fire emblem warriors are spinof Metroid other M was a beat them all spinof etc
@Nishquik Pops i woud rather play Skyrim for the 500th time than play Botw or TOTK it as the best of both world not linear can even ignore the main story and be just a criminal if you want they is dongeon in the form of the cript multiple armor and weapon type and style THAT DOESN'T BREAK ave magic ave character creation ave crafting Personally Skyrim is just the perfect Zelda .... Allow me to create a zora i woud ave my racial perks woud use a trident water healing and ice offensive magic etc
I love both BOTW and TOTK, but I agree they have a completely different vibe compared to older Zelda games. Either way, I would love to see a new traditional Zelda game in the future!
@@nishquikpopsIs it bad that I would love an OOT remake in the ilk of the RE4 Remake, where it's generally the same but has some core changes that flush out the world more.
They should keep the open-world, but make the dungeons in the traditional style - small keys, special items, puzzles And there needs to be more than 4 of them. I like the shrines, but only having four sections makes the story feel weaker, with worse pacing, and less of an adventure.
My problems are that they make the game non linear by making everything optional. Like how the story is only progressed through flashbacks that don't change anything in the present, or how every loot and treasure is only something that *might* help a bit, while everything you'll actually need was given to you in the tutorial. It's like they built their games for speedrunners
I hate the flashback method of storytelling. It never feels like Link does anything of importance, or effects the world at large because you’re seeing a past struggle through someone else’s eyes. I cared about Zelda’s struggle in TOTK, but I couldn’t effect or experience it in the present, so it created a huge disconnect between me and the game. I said on multiple occasions when watching the geoglyph memories “man, I wish I was playing THAT instead”. And BOTW’s story was a huge fumble where I didn’t care about anything; TOTK at least has that mystery appeal in the beginning, but BOTW starts with telling you the outcome of everything, so I don’t care about learning more of what happened when everyone’s already long dead. At best the flashbacks make you feel like you’re experiencing an epic climax to a story you haven’t played, and at worst makes you apathetic towards everything and everyone in the game.
@@Hewasnumber1 Yeah for real imagine how cool it wouldve been to play Zelda's story instead. That's the one thing I wanted from the sequel to breath of the wild.
Yeah I'm so scared this is gonna be a trend for Zelda. Optional story via ANY method just sounds so WRONG for Zelda. Story has been a huge impact on the games for over 2 decades now. OOT: you see the consequences of childish heroic thinking, and must undo what happened cuz of you pulling the master sword. MM: you SEE the results of Majora tormenting the 4 corners of Termina. You don't witness the events first hand, but the aftermath surrounds you, and will surround you again and again no matter how many times u fix things, u gotta reset time. Even the (imo underrated) game Minish Cap has a good story. Come to find out this goofy bird hat guy was the TEACHER of this Vaati guy. It makes it even MORE personal to kick his butt. He hurt Zelda, her dad, and the kingdom, AND hurt this new friend + companion. SS gave us the lore of the BEGINNING OF HYRULE AND THE CURSED 100 YEAR CYCLE for goodness sake!!! Optional story DOES NOT FIT with what Zelda as a series IS.
@@levilombardi3162 Even though, I think they can accomplish the same kind of progression without relying on a linear narrative, like how both the N64 games and the switch games have kind of an episodic narrative at times, when you're given the choice of which zone to complete in the order you want. Traditionally, each zone would yield its own storyline, dungeon and gadget, which would then unlock access to new zones and stories. The switch games are just missing that latter part. A recent game that does this very nicely is Animal Well, which has that metroidvania progression while also giving you access to every starting area all at once.
Oh, yeah, and older Zelda games with no optional stuff were fun af, lol. I don't want exploration in game to reward me with things I need to progress the story, I want exploration to open some optional stuff.
I started on the N64 OoT. I remember when it launched and seeing commercials for it! I dont really like the new style. I played the two games yes, and beat them, but I haven't been back. I consumed them for the story and moved on. I'm not a fan becauee it feels like a "create your own content" kind of vibe. The older games I still consume actively; currently going through MM. I admit that my enjoyment could be related to nastalgia. But the lack of a story that I'm actually a part in, the lack of tools and gear and the lack of traditional dungeons really hurt the games for me. It feels like the zelda team took all the time making this amazing world that is fun to play in with solid combat then ran out of steam for anything else. It hurts.
I have to say, as a fellow traditional dungeon lover, dungeons in Zelda haven't been the same since Skyward sword. I do love BoTW amd ToTK but i wish they had more traditional complex and unique dungeons.
Exactly. I hated the technological "twist" of the game. Post-apocalyptic, sure. That's like having smart watches and tablets in Lord of The Rings. The story was also garbage.
I think the push toward freedom and non-linearity is the death of the fun I had with Zelda. And it’s not just these two games. A Link Between Worlds had dungeons but the way that game worked resulted in them being very shallow and simple.
I disagree personally, if they were to make the equivalent of ALBW dungeons in a main game fashion, I would be more than satisfied. Yeah it's not the same as the traditional ones, but what irks me most about the BOTW / TOTK temples is that they actively try and make them as non-linear and simple as possible. ALBW dungeons scratch that itch of linear exploration for me.
@@hichaelhyers It's not ideal for me, but it would definitely be a step above shrines and divine beasts. The Gameboy Zelda games in particular were good about keeping your entire arsenal relevant. ALBW with its item rental turns each dungeon into the phrase "When all you have is a hammer." That and being non-linear meant none of them could be particularly difficult. Nothing anywhere near as complex as Turtle Rock from Link's Awakening by the end of the game.
I agree, ALBW was the beginning of the end. The structure of that game meant you went into the dungeon knowing exactly what item to use, because you needed the item to get in and only needed that item. In a "real" Zelda game you get the item half way through and that reveal re-contextualises bits of the dungeon that you've already seen.
@@thelastwindwaker7948 Yeah, Eagle's Tower and Turtle Rock were amazing! The divine beasts and even TotK's temples are "baby's first dungeon" in comparison.
When people call themselves zelda fans when they've only played botw, or choose totk as their first I get so sad. The feeling I got when I first played ocarina of time, how ancient mysterious and lore-filled the dungeons/temples felt, the excitement of getting a cool new item(that doesn't break!) Ughhhhhh they should've made BotW its own separate thing
My problem isn't even the openness or the mediocre/just ok dungeons. It's the fact that in the open world, the actual content itself is a bunch of things that take like 20 minutes each, which pads out the time it takes to beat the game, but after like the 30th shrine and 40th korok, you start feeling how annoying it is to hear the same music and the same yahaha! multiple times an hour. I'm playing through Elden Ring and I started a bit before TOTK released, but holy shit is that game's exploration so much better. You never know what to expect and there's multiple areas that can take you hours upon hours. Each dungeon takes around 1-5 hours to beat, while it barely takes 45 mintues at most to beat even the best dungeon in Tears. And the "filler content" in Elden Ring or it's equivalent to shrines is so damn different everytime. There's the catacombs, caves and mines which are the shrine equivalents, but there's also some huge ass side dungeons, a whole underground area that's basically as big as a full dungeon, multiple castles, forts, dimensions, etc. with hours of content each. For example in Leyndell Capital city, you can find a couple of secret areas that lead you to a whole ass other level that can literally give you a different ending to the game. And in each dungeon there's like 2 other secret areas, multiple bosses in each dungeon, and on top of that they're not all just temples, they have different purposes in the world. Like the side-content in Tears vs. Elden RIng is genuinely laughable, despite it still being a lot of content. I can probably name all side content in TOTK in one sentence: side adventures, shrine quests, villages, caves, wells, stables, great fairies, sign puzzles, minigames and bosses (there's only 6 different types on the surface, 6 additional ones in the depths, 4 of which you have to fight in dungeons beforehand and there's only a single type of boss in the sky). Basically, there's no variety and the rewards for finding something cool that isn't a side-quest is always a shrine or a korok. Oh you climbed the tallest mountain in the game, here's a Korok, oh you found a secret labyrinth, here's a shrine and a small area of the map in the depths, oh you found 3 super random locations with yiga soldiers that you had to defeat to get an outfit that gives you access to an area that was literally a dungeon quest in the past game, here's a FUCKING SHRINE FOR YOU, oh you went to the most iconic bridge in the entire series, here's a boss you can do in 13 different places and it's also the most boring version of it, oh you found 1000 seeds scattered throughout the map and spent 150 hours trying to find them and only doing that because you finished everything else, but you still wanted to play the game and completely finish it? HERE'S A GOLDEN PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT FOR YOUR EFFORTS. Oh you found a ruined version of a representation of the 7 sages, here's a cave where you can kill a frog that'll give you a gem that's used to give you those 8 bat eye balls you really wanted. I don't care about the dungeons that much despite me really wanting them to come back like before BOTW, I just want the actual exploration itself to be fun.
I like having the games be open world but I really miss having better dungeons and storys. Don’t see why they can’t just do a game that’s open world but has traditional linear dungeons
I'm gonna miss the old Zelda formula. So many of those games are a part of my childhood and even when I played Skyward Sword HD for the first time on switch it was such a fantastic experience. I realized I missed those old dungeons and the focus on story way more than I thought. I also miss when the soundtrack took center stage, it wasn't just calm piano background music, it was memorable catchy and helped so much with bringing the world to life. Don't get me wrong, I love BotW and TotK. However it would be sad if we had to leave the qualities that made the older Zelda games so great to make room for the open exploration that the new games are going for. I still believe it is possible to have those epic well designed dungeons of old with a strong story focus and strong melodic soundtrack while still keeping the new formula. Honestly if they managed to mix the two, I could easily see it becoming my favourite Zelda game, nostalgia aside of course.
A Link Between Worlds proved you can have a more open, non-linear structure *and* traditional item-based dungeons with unique themes. In that game, the story still had certain sync points, like leaving the tutorial, getting the master sword, going to Lorule and entering the castle, and you needed to complete a certain amount of dungeons to progress, but the order you did said dungeons was up to the player. BotW and TotK's absolute commitment to boundless freedom is both a blessing and a curse, and I think the time will come for the Zelda team to sacrifice some of that freedom to restore some of that traditional Zelda magic and also shake things up a bit. - Make the world a bit smaller and more dense. This will also result in better and more meaningful rewards for quests. - Have a more structured style of progression, while still allowing for exploration and freedom between key story events. - Integrate the "shrine" concept more with the world itself, possibly by placing the puzzles inside caves. - There should be a good number of dungeons, with the BARE minimum being 5 or 6. - The dungeons themselves should be thematically distinct, large in scale and mechanically complex, similar to the ones in Majora's Mask and the Ancient Cistern from Skyward Sword. Also like in that game (as well as TotK to an extent) you would get the necessary item during the quest leading up to entering the dungeon. Said item should also have combat applications and open up certain areas that are gated off at the start. IT'S OKAY TO NOT GIVE COMPLETE FREEDOM TO THE PLAYER AT THE START. - DO NOT make Castle Town ruined again. I want to explore big, bustling towns and cities. - Maybe go back to a more epic-sounding, orchestral soundtrack. BotW was fine and its music fit the style of the game, but it also resulted in the majority of the OST not being very memorable, and I consider that to be a core part of the series. In their mission to rethink the conventions of Zelda, the team also got rid of many fundamental aspects of the series' identity. Forcing the player on a set path was a convention of Zelda. Having real dungeons was part of the soul of the series. In my opinion, while this is the right direction for the franchise, they just went too far in a few places.
I am playing both Totk and Oot. I like the two option. I prefer the more linear game like Skyward Sword but when I saw the temple of fire in Totk I think they manedge to find the perfect balance. Fun fact I'm also stuck at the fire temple in oot
As a fan of the series for 23 years. I thought BOTW was different and didn’t feel like Zelda to me. Don’t get me wrong, I love RPGs and open world games. I love Skyrim, Fallout and many other series for em. But, I played Zelda games, entirely for the purpose of story, atmosphere and dungeon puzzle solving. Each new Zelda game I was exited to play, because I wanted to be sold on the new spin on what Nintendo already does best. The story beats, beautiful soundtrack, the wacky characters, the handmade dynamic villages and dungeons. That’s what has always sold me on Zelda games. I don’t hate BOTW or TOTK, it just doesn’t invoke that same feeling Zelda used to give me anymore.
@@Danny328DT yeah if it was reworked it could be great, I just remembered that it stuns enemies so they could probably just copy and paste the effect for dazzle fruit onto it
I'm hoping for a good balance. I just don't like all the scifi in these new games. Once I saw Link had a bionic arm on a youtube video I wasn't interested. Anciant and basic tech and steempunk I'm fine with but It's gone too far for me. If this is were zelda is hedding I'll just play the old games or wait till they return to thier roots.
Forgive me for the quality of this essay, I am writing it late at night. I was thinking this a lot while playing TOTK. TOTK and BOTW are brilliant games, but they are only Zelda in name and appearance. Zelda is known for its lavish set pieces, tight puzzles, item progression and the feeling of your options opening up as you progress. BOTW and TOTK have all of those elements to an extent, but they are less intimate and less creative because they have to account for the world and the freedom needed to enjoy the world. To start with the dungeons... Traditional Zelda dungeons are all about linear progression. The entire experience is about seeing clues and being unable to understand/make use of them, then after solving a puzzle you earn an item which completely recontextualizes your options both in the dungeon and out in the overworld. Games like TOTK give you all the tools to traverse the world from the start. This isn't a problem for the game in of itself, TOTK would suck if you got recall or ascend 1/2 through the game. The world you spend 80% of your time in is build around you being able to do everything from the start. However, linear dungeons thrive on you gaining access to a new mechanic in order to proceed. It forces you to make use of your limited options to move forward, which is thrilling and interesting. If you design a dungeon in TOTK, in order to have that feeling of doors opening and progression you would need to either strip away the options the player currently has or make those options useless and create an arbitrary reason why a player could not progress, a reason which will have minimal influence on the game post the dungeon. Remember, the player needs to be able to take things at any order and the overworld cannot be filled with inaccessible points. Dungeons are all about unique objectives which need to be solved, however you lose freedom in creating objectives if a player comes in with too many tools. Puzzles are all about people needing to think outside of the box with limited resources as opposed to people using a method they already understand to solve a problem. A wall needing to be blown up isn't a puzzle in of itself, but a wall needing to be blown up where you don't have bombs requires you to make use of your surroundings, which requires you to think about your options and formulate a plan. Can I create something that can still break the wall without bombs? Can I find another way to pass the wall? Can I use logic to move a bomb that is normally out of range? However, a rocky explodable wall means nothing if a player will have 60 bombs in their pockets already. Second is set pieces. Simple as it sounds, unique set pieces are part of the world, they don't go on top of the world. TOTK dungeons are kinda just plopped in open areas as opposed to being an organic part of the game's progression. A dungeon like the Sand Ship in TOTK would require an entire area to be dedicated to a mechanic which would mean nothing for the rest of the world. It works perfectly for Skyward Sword since you get another generally applicable mechanic in the dungeon, however in ToTK you wouldn't be getting the new power. Instead, one small part of the world would use a specific new mechanic that is useless everywhere else. That they make the mechanic required in other areas and you cannot interact with a huge part of the game until you get an optional item that could take you tens of hours to make your way to. For context, If you were allowed to just use electric arrows to charge the batteries, Riju would be wholly unneeded in her dungeon, that restriction is arbitrary. However, using the time crystals to turn machines on and off and wear down parts of the ship is very organic and creates situations you need to make use of your limited options to create openings for you to move forward. If you just had the power to change time at will, the dungeon would be identical to any other puzzle. TOTK feels like a city built with interlocking parts that cannot be traded out or removed to create something that functions on a large scale. Traditional Zeldas feel like a decorated house, with more intimate design and freedom of expression, but on a much smaller scale.
I was hoping for a comment like this, I just wanted to understand people that still want "classic" Zelda and now I get nostalgia is such a blindfold, let me elaborate. You say classic Zelda has "intimate design and character expression. But as I remember OOT and TO had only one solution to their challenges. And they were not that great either. Bosses were formulaic. Items were almost never use after the dungeon. Totk has expression, I killed the wind temple boss by diving on, some others do with arrows, or throwing items, or rocket on shield, or whatever they can. The bosses I've seen so many ways to be defeated, mainly flux bosses. And abilities I keep using them way after their temple. I made a full dungeon using the ability from other temple because I did not want to make elixirs or spend on counteracting clothes for that environment I can understand people saying. Botw wasn't as Zelda as the classic games. But totk is 6 years making Botw more Zelda. And it shows.
I have the same concern since the 2018, when I played botw for the first time Simply by the fact that... I actually didn't like the game that much. Zelda is my favorite gaming franchise of all time, I've been playing the series since I was a kid. Idk, I apreciate that they tried to make a game very different from the other ones, but... It's not the Zelda game I was looking for. It was fun for the first couple of hours, even more because of the fact that I played in the same day that I got my nintendo switch (and im kinda disapointed on it, but thats another topic) Idk, I just hope they manage to bring back the vibes que classic Zelda games had I really wanted to like botw and totk. But is just not for me Anyway, sorry for the typos. English is not my main language
Been playing 25+ year of The Legend of Zelda. What I want to see is Zelda keeping the approach of innovating and changing the formula. Have some open world and some more linear entries going foward, as to not grow stale in one style or the other. I miss magic, items, diving under water and my weapons not breaking. Building things is neat and all, but I miss the more fleshed out storylines and more complex dungeons of older titles. Every game in series delivers on music and characters. The only things I am glad are gone are painful backtracking segments like the Temple of the Ocean King (A.K.A. the Worst Dungeon Ever(Water Temple haters can suck it, I didn't think it was that bad)).
I do NOT like open world games. I feel like to some people think that If an open world game is done well, it’s the ULTIMATE game. I really prefer linearity, so the depressing question that I already know the answer to is “is there still a place for me in this series?” I LOVED breath of the wild when I first played it but now? It drains me. I just can’t play it anymore I’m so tired of the breath of the wild format with SHRINES and KOROKS and DURABILITY and tears of the kingdom had seemingly made it clear that I guess I’m done with Zelda. I’ve loved this franchise since I was a little kid but I guess it’s not for me anymore. I’m very bummed currently
The thing about adding dungeons to this new non linear zelda, is that they would have to remove shrines. All of the elaborate puzzles that would normally go into traditional dungeons are spent on the dozens of shrines. Its like they are taking what could have been full fledged dungeons and chopping them up into bite sized pieces to fit across the entire map
I kinda feel ww did that withe th island caves. Oneley 5 maby 6 dungions and all these uther little hidden places that could have bin used for a big dungion. Probley my oneley problem with that game.
I am kinda the opposite. I have NEVER doubted the Zelda team because they've never made a bad mainline Zelda title. At worst, they've made some weird spinoffs, but their consistency in quality and creativity is unmatched in the industry! So, instead of worrying about where the series is going, I'm beyond excited to see where it will go next! Zelda is starting to surpass Mario as Nintendo's most successful IP, which means each new title will have more resources invested into it, more talent, more money, more time! All of this to bring us the most monumental games of their respective eras! The future is looking VERY bright!
It's great to be optimistic but after playing both BoTW and ToTK as fantastic as they are they are also limited and restricted in parts that traditional Zelda games Excel at.
As much as I love BotW and TotK I really prefer the traditional dungeons because they are all unique but I believe there's a way to mix both in the next games. The Zelda team knows how much we love their games and they make with love and care. I'm sure there's nothing to worry about 😊 except for the timeline of TotK 😵💫
You've got a point in this video and I wish the dungeons could be more like the traditional format. I do enjoy the current format...but the you bring up stone tower temple and that's a hard act to follow xD
"this game is outdated,...archaic..." when you see it as a "true gem...one of the most revolutionary games of all time" tbh I think people will say the same about ToTK in the far future. Life is all about change.
So unfortunately you can't have both... In the LTTP formula, each item essentially worked as a key to open doors to and within the next dungeon. BoTW and ToTK would not work with items like that. Areas would be locked off if those items were implemented. It would break the openness those games are about.
I personally am one to just prefer the older formula to the point that I now kind of rely on games like metroid and metroidvanias to get that same experience of playing in a world that feels like one big *interconnected* puzzle. What I think games like Zelda, Metroid and subsequently metroidvanias mostly seem to do amazingly well as opposed to BotW is kind of provide this feeling of expanding scope based on your actions. get item -> can explore more places that can find more items recursively, so on and so forth until final boss. At a mechanical level, it *feels* like an epic, but BotW and to a much lesser degree TotK both kind of feel like a set of distinct events/challenges that have no relation to each other and feel somewhat same-y in comparison. I still do look forward to what *new* directions the open world Zelda will take on moving forward now though seeing how they literally decided to combat that "sameness" with even *more* freedom by allowing the player to literally build machines. Who knows, maybe there *will* be a hybrid "open world" with traditional dungeons and unlockable unique abilities.
I am sorry but no, Zelda's game essence has always been dungeons, its what has always set it apart from other adventure games. And I just can't end up liking completely thisnew Zelda open world formula. And I really feel offended with what we get as "dungeons" in this new games ahd here is why: - There is literally nothing stopping your progression on these places, you can just go wherever the F you want to go..(I really miss doors and keys) - There are literally no enemies in your way and the few we get are just generic Zonai frikin robots that have nothing to do with the dungeon's theme, and lets not even talk about the ones in BOTW - I hate the "Just activate 4 switches and fight the f-ing boss formula" Like are you kidding me? How can that be a proper dungeon? WTF that is NOT a dungeon - I miss key items being what dungeons were built around, it made them have their own "personality" and no other dungeons were alike the others, at leaat they could have used the Sheikah abilities for that purpose. - The level of challenge on these dungeons honestly is brain dead, at least in BOTW they kinda had you thinking a bit more with this "space changing" in the Divine Beasts, still they are so forgetable. Summing up they will never be a memorable part of the experience on these new Zelda games anymore and it breaks my heart so badly how they butchered the SOUL of what makes a Zelda game a Zelda game, that is DUNGEONS, proper dungeons not this bs we get nowadays, take them out and you have any other game but a Zelda game...
I also agree with your thoughts on the dungeons. Open exploration is fun but in a sense forgettable in a sea of endless small interactions. The classic dungeon is a statement and sticks with you leaving you with a since of accomplishment and satisfaction. Your left with a finely crafted themed puzzle that represents thoughts and expressions of the hardships of the natives of the game. It will be missed if it does not make a return
In short for me at least. If the dungeons to short to leave an impression. It’s forgettable and I’ll just move to the next. Because the effort and reward were not equal. You know Math
Before I take this bong rip I'd like to say, the difference of traditional Zelda games to open world Zelda games is probably how people saw the shift from 2D to 3D back in the 90's. In fact around that time people probably argued the games went from being sorta open world in games like LTTP to somewhat linear like in OOT, or 2D Zelda's are more comparable to BotW/TotK in the sense that you can tackle things in mostly any order. The series is ever-evolving with time and I'm glad Nintendo can breathe some fresh air into it every now and then, I only hope they can expand and bring in some of the elements that you brought up that made those linear 3D such a unique story-driven experience.
Actually no... oot was basically lttp but in 3D... we where all shocked and thrilled by it... Also there wasn't an internet where everyone could sob about shit...
@@lolpe1000 Yeah, there is a weird historical revisionism with how OOT was received back in the 90s. NOBODY said that OOT was more (nor less) linear than any other previous Zelda game. That conversation started off around the time of "The Minish Cap", and grew over time up until "Skyward Sword", where it reached its cenit.
@@CSProduction12 I was there, Gandalf. I was there on the internet 3000 years ago. I recall using AOL, over dial-up, looking in anticipation at early screenshots of what was then called Zelda 64 and is now known as Ocarina of Time. I recall being on early Zelda fandom message boards after its release (ezboard and such). Most everyone loved OOT, that much is true. But there was some that, despite loving the "new" games in the series like OOT and MM, felt that it lost something in the jump to 3D. Pretty similar to what's happening now with the transition from "traditional" Zelda to "modern" Zelda. You might not have met them, but they were there.
@@lolpe1000 maybe instead of "linear" we should say "limited". But I have a feeling that would also ruffle feathers. Generally though I think by linear the critics mean that we have to proceed this way> in order to get this> which unlocks this and so on. Modern Zelda does away with this by freeing the player to explore the large world mostly as they see fit. There have been side effects, the story has become thin, very thin. The dungeons or temples are more equal and lack that feeling of progressive difficulty and complexity(and theme). Story and dungeons can be addressed over time and they are already trying to improve in those aspects in ToTK I can see it. For now as they say, trust the plan.
Personally I think Zelda was at it's best with TP, OoT and MM being close contenders in large part because they were my first two. I really miss getting lost in a water temple I miss dungeons being dungeons, having floors, keys, items that facilitate doing other things in other parts of the game... BotW and TotK just don't give me that, they don't give me nearly as much by way of story or lore. Sure, they're good games in their own right though for me TotK would be a lot better if BotW hadn't existed, I sank most of my interest and replayability for TotK into BotW which I suppose could be taken as a sign that Zelda already has the open world issue. On the point about story and lore, OoT, TP, even Skyward Sword (which I didn't like that much) all had good stories, they had lore and Link was an active part of those stories, but BotW and TotK the story happened in the distant past and Link is just cleaning up Zelda's mess, it feels like I'm picking at scraps by comparison. Ganon, in OoT and TP he had motives for conquering Hyrule, in the BotW era it's just "he's evil" and pretty much for the sake of it. The sheikah tech, it existed, why? The divine beasts, okay, they wanted weapons to fight Ganon but why beasts? The King ordered the technology buried, the technology that apparently recently saved his kingdom, for what reason was it buried? None of these questions are answered. I just feel like the dev team decided to trade story and lore depth for creative freedom and I don't like it.
I honestly think they can do both. I think they should make “traditional” linear 3D Zelda games inbetween their “open air” Zelda games. I look at a game like a link between worlds that released after skyward sword but before breath of the wild, and it showed that Nintendo still wanted to make the older 2D style Zelda games along side their main 3D games at the time. The open air style zelda games are obviously so succesful that they’ll keep making them like this, but I think they could do linear 3D (or even 2D) style games in between the BOTW/TOTK style games, because I think that both styles have their strengths. I really like how the linear zelda games (both 2D and 3D) tell their stories and I find the linearity of them makes the storytelling more effective and efficient, so I don’t think Nintendo should abandon this style outright. A Link Between Worlds was an awesome spiritual successor to A Link to the Past, I think Nintendo is sitting on a masterpiece of a game of they made a spiritual successor to Majoras Mask with a major focus on side quests and 3 day time mechanic and intricate world schedules and everything. They could even expand on it by making an entire week long mechanic with really intricate and elaborate puzzles that really flesh out the world. Anyway, I dream about this hypothetical game that will probably most likely never exist lol.
I bought TOTK day 1, and to be honest I haven’t felt much motivation to play it. However, recently I’ve felt much more inclined to go back to older games, I’ve been blazing through OOT, and minish cap, and when I play OOT and MM, I just get this almost addictive feeling that I just don’t want to stop playing that I also got from A link between worlds. Although, I haven’t yet felt this feeling with TOTK, not saying it’s a bad game, it just hasn’t caught my interest as much as other games have yet. And it’s probably due to the change in formula.
I agree!! Open world is so overrated and overused with a lot of games nowadays. Just because it’s bigger doesn’t mean it’s better I remember back then games had great level design.
As someone that has been playing them since the NES I can say it feels great. I hope they can put more dungeons into the world and keep the shrines as well. Currently this feels like an actual adventure and not a linear story.
If you've played since the nes then youd understand that zelda 1 even with a more "exploration" based "game play" had actual dungeons locked behind item progression as well as heart pieces. It didn't have 150 boring shrines to get a mediocre replacement for a heart piece. Ah yes this feels like an adventure *finds shrines and seeds only and the occasional wack weapon*
I’m fine with non linear but I just want temples back where you have to look for a mini boss get a new weapon and then look for the master key and go to the boss room and beat the boss. I also want durability gone.
I feel like TotK could have very well have included traditional puzzle box Zelda dungeons by placing them in the Depths, being more cut off from the open world layout of the surface. It would have been perfect that upon entering one you’d be closed off and you’d have to figure out how to exit the dungeon without being able to clip out of it or fly around too much, only using your ultra hand to solve a specific puzzle in each room while collecting keys and then fighting a unique boss at the end. Hopefully a future DLC could add this 🤞🤞
I’ve been playing Zelda games for 30 years I wasn’t sure about botw I’ve given up on totk at the moment but I will go back to it. I think I’m just tired of open world games I much prefer linear games with the feeling of being open like the past Zelda games although ss is a bit too linear for me my favourites are oot mm ww and tp. I feel lost as a Zelda fan right now to be honest. I just can’t see why they couldn’t have put real dungeons in botw it breaks my heart 💔 that’s why I play the games for those dungeons! Also the music is absolutely rubbish now but I understand what they were trying to do.
Hmmm… I’ve been playing Zelda games since the 90s, and at least in my opinion, they have not changed in essence, to me BotW and TotK still feel like TLoZ games, at least I can see through the changes, innovations and redefinition they’ve gone through. You voiced your concerns about hoping Zelda doesn’t fall into doing the same over and over like other companies have done with open world games, but that’s exactly what Nintendo is not doing, sticking with the same formula over and over. OoT set a standard for many video games that came after it. The Z-targeting system was brilliant, never seen before, not to mention the dungeon designs all in 3D, my mind was so blown away, I remember I would have dreams about them as if I was living in them. Now we have BotW and TotK, they are both unique in the open world video game industry, just as OoT, they are setting standards in open world design that many will copy in the future, and if you find perplexing the 30M BotW copies sold, let’s see where TotK ends when it had a 3 day 10M copies sold to start with. I’m sure you can feel how the concept they are offering us has evolved from BotW to TotK, the later also having more “traditional” dungeon elements added than the former, still not like it used to be, but that’s in my opinion, not a bad thing, it’s an ever evolving franchise and I love it for it! What I do miss, I’m sure they will implement it at some point, is an under water temple, specially with the freedom we have now with the new mechanics, an underwater dungeon would be crazy, but I’m sure it is just as crazy to pull off development wise. Nothing last forever, everything evolves in nature, and that’s the way it should be, at some point in the future, Zelda will shift to a different concept, and hopefully it will continue to set standards other will be blown away by and follow!
I have a different way to approach the Zelda games (and my first Zelda was Ocarina of Time, I played it in N64 when I was 6 or 7 years old). What characterizes Zelda is not a formula, it is innovation. A Link to the Past stablished a formula, yes. But it changed everything in it's own moment. Also Skyward Sword (although it is not my favourite precisely), and Ocarina of Time, and Majora's, and Twilight Princess, and Link's Awakening (what crazy story)... So I'm always open to new ideas.
The original 3D formula was perfected in Twilight Princess, as evidenced by how stifling and closed off Skyward Sword feels. That formula will probably (hopefully) live oin in the top down/2D format, but as far as the big 3D adventures go, the sandbox/open world concept is just so much more fresh and interesting.
I'm HYPED for the future of the series. Come on, guys. Nintendo proved, that they don't want to always stay the same when it comes to Zelda. BotW and TotK are the perfect example. Why would you fear, that Zelda will always stay the same moving forward? Nintendo will keep coming up with new things.
Yup you're right. It's good to feel optimistic and we should bc Nintendo is always a step ahead and makes the best games. Especially when it comes to Zelda!
I club 2D and 3D games pre BOTW as traditional. Traditional means more linear, set path, not as open ended, with puzzle box dungeons which are also linear, and more story focused. No one formula is better than the other, but if they keep the open air formula, I'll just miss what we had before.
I've been a zelda fan ever since I was born so 13 years. I started with Wind Waker SD. Easily one of my favourite games of all time and it got me hooked in zelda. From there I played the ds games then oot, mm and twilight princess. I loved all of them. Then botw came out and it was just incredible. I sunk 1000 hours into it. I loved every bit of it. Then totk came out and its my favourite game oat right now. But, I really hope they either find a way to combine the new style with the old style or release traditional games alongside the new style games. To be honest though, i trust the zelda team. I know whatever they make will be amazing
1996 guy here. Yeah they can stay with the open world, open ended... for another game or two I suspect. But there is much they need to fix for this new formula to work long term. Reality is the new games look impressive and play just as good but they are limiting from a design and structure perspective and have some other disadvantages. The serious issue. If you look at BotW and TotK side-by-side you'll see there isn't much difference other than the paint mechanically speaking and if you place them side-by-side with older games you'll see that the mechanics are lacking in comparison. You'll also see that while the world is open it loses the metroidvania elements that really propelled the older games into classics. While much of this is nothing new as old Zelda games typically share mechanics heavily, each game did have an unique trait (that played into the game), could fall back onto a secondary element like story (Which the new games pushed into the back seat by making them past tense cutscenes) and from time to time did venture into new territory mechanically with items. While increased mechanic options and elements such as metroidvania style design could hold the player's interest, make the game exciting and continue to give direction if necessary.
When it comes to dungeons in BOTW-style Zelda, I feel like a 'proving grounds' shrine format would be a sick way to make the dungeons harder to cheese. You're stripped of your equipment and items, stuck in a labyrinth of enemies and puzzles with only your skills, upgrades, and whatever you find inside the dungeons. I've played 2 of the dungeons in TOTK and you literally can just whip out a machine and cheese it entirely, which is fun in its own way, but also a bit lame.
Ooo, yeah! I like that idea! You could actually do an entirely traditional Zelda Dungeon that way, as once you entered, you'd be stripped, and you could only use what you forage, and then you could find a Key, permanent item, which would ultimately solve the dungeon! I think you're onto something!
we just want WW and TP remakes. he’ll, even a OOT and MM actual REMAKE. you can easily do that WHILE also making new Open World Zelda games. not hard. I don’t want to buy a wii u and 100$ games just to play WW and TP again
I don't think there's any reason to worry personally. The Legend of Zelda is one of Nintendo's darlings, and it's a company known for their, almost to a fault, insistance on new ideas and concepts. I don't think we'll ever see it become a low effort repeat kind of game series. But I do hope they start switching up the art style and world again after TotK.
Dating myself here, but I played the first LoZ game, on the NES...a short while after it came out. I find it interesting you're using LttP as your starting point for this franchise, when the very first game did the things you were talking about - overworld exploration, dungeons with enemies/puzzles (puzzles usually amounted to find the secret wall or kill the enemies), and fighting bosses. Zelda 2, also NES, was the game that introduced linearity. If memory serves, the only gate in the first game was you had to beat the first eight dungeons before you could do the last one. Everything else was entirely up to the player. Where you want, what order you did dungeons, all up to you. Zelda 2 forced you on a linear progression path. LttP felt like an amalgamation of those two. You had rewarding exploration, and forced linearity. I agree with you on the bosses at the end of the temples, but I still feel BotW or TotK has really nailed down dungeons yet. The Temples felt like bigger divine beasts to me. I always find it funny when people try to define what a Zelda game is, and point to whichever games support their own side. To me, every Zelda game is a Zelda game. The series has evolved over decades. Some evolutions are more popular than others with different segments of the fan base. I would highly doubt we'll see much regression in the Zelda formula, but I do hold out hope that this series will get the Metroid Dread treatment. From out of nowhere, we get a Zelda game that's more akin to the older/2D style. We kind of got it with the Awakening remake, but I'd love to see a new story told in an older style. I'm skeptical that we can really see a return to the older style of dungeons in these games, because of the crazy amount of power we get. The Sheikah powers in BotW and the Ultrahand powers in TotK are really only limited by our imagination. I don't know how you balance a tough and engaging puzzle when players can just rocket blast past it, or create some never before seen contraption and cheese it. I know I did this in more than a few shrines. It was hilarious, but how do you make a puzzle that accounts for that? Puzzles are about giving the player enough information and tools to solve it, and BotW/TotK give the player way too much power in that regard. I think that's why we see much smaller scale puzzles in the temples. Now that I've written my book, thanks UA-cam for recommending a new creator. Looking forward to seeing more of your work!
I’m not worried about the future despite my many issues with the botw/totk formula Why? Because I love both style of Zeldas but I am worried for the traditional style and I only ask they keep the 2D traditional games around at the very least. Totk is selling 20+ million copies already I don’t understand why they can’t hire a new team to work on smaller traditional Zelda
It all started with the very first zelda wich was also open world … so the original vision for the zelda franchise was open world …. This is the zelda we should of always had !
After TOTK I am convinced that Nintendo can not marry the two formats. Since I like classic I will be staying away from zelda for the foreseeable future...TOTK was such a disappointment but its being lauded as the "Perfect game" by everyone. Its at this point someone like me needs to cut my losses and walk away as there is no way they will make a "open world" game I like.
What I miss about the old Zelda formula was finding new items and being able to do something new from it. Breath of the Wild went with the concept of getting all your abilities at the start to solve its open ended puzzles which was fun to play around with but felt a bit stale by mid to late game because of I'd stick to a common solution I've had since the start of the game. Tears of the kingdom sort of fixes this with the Zonai devices being sort of a new item and just the amount of other items like the elemental fruit. The shrines this time around also seem more like mini tutorials that give you ideas of how the Zonai devices work or how your abilities can be used which has been making things feel a bit like the old Zelda games since even though I have access to all these devices and abilities, the shrines do show you something new at times. The dungeons I think still feel a bit lacking though because the treasure chest in them are just generic weapons and the open ended nature still makes them rather short. I like the new Zelda formula and the future looks bright if they can keep introducing deep systems that give players a sense of discovery but I can also see things ending poorly if it becomes their focus leading to some sort of burnout of ideas. Whatever happens I hope they atleast go back a bit to the old formula of finding new items.
I’ve been a Zelda fan since very late 2013, my first Zelda was Wind Waker HD, and upon beating it, I became an instant fan As for the Open World gameplay style, I’m optimistic for its use for future 3D Zelda as BotW & TotK are like testing grounds and they can build upon what works and create new ideas in the mix to create a very amazing 3D Zelda game, I just hope we get more memorable Dungeons like the old days
Let us buy limited keys in shops/sometimes discover them out in the world, sometimes in dungeons. You can access the dungeons in any order but you have to strategically use your keys, even stealing one from another dungeon and skipping those locked doors with an item you can get later. Idk if I'm cooking or not but this could help bridge the gap I think.
I'm not worried. Zelda is about exploration at its core. I do think maybe they could experiment with dungeons in an open world in the future. That being said, I think they should have open world for 3D and then traditional for 2D.
The original Zelda that I played 36 years ago WAS open world. The game is finally being made how it was originally wished to be before the technology was there. This is the original imagining of the game. It’s the incredible linear games that were the different than imagined versions.
I feel like they could land in a solid middle ground that caters to all types of Zelda fans. Bring back more traditional dungeons, but allow for more creativity in solutions. My biggest issue with the dungeons in TotK while they nailed the aesthetic, and themes for the most part the core mechanic to each of them is not only too similar to each other, but the divine beasts as well. Aside from that, and the lack of utility items I feel like TotK did manage to get as close to that middle ground as we've gotten yet.
@@teupaiocabalo3893 a lot of people. I myself being a newer fan can see the charm in it, but I can see why it'd be hard for other newer fans of the franchise to get into. The secrets are just trial and error without a guide, and some are almost mandatory. This along with many other issues mainly due to the hardware limitations can make it very jarringly different than future instalments.
OG here . Literally was a kid playing ocarina . Played the original, Zelda 2 . The oracles and all the 3ds. Here to say it’s time to let the ocarina template go . Botw and tears were needed badly the creators themselves even admitted to growing tired of the old formula . It’s time to grow .
What can I say, When Ocarina of Time came out in 1998 I was 2 years old. My dad was a OG fan since the original Zelda, and even back then when I was that young I was been exposed to the series making it my most treasured piece of entertainment to date. Excluding Triforce Heroes and both four swords, I have played every single game and love them all, and I really really like Botw and Totk, but the dread of knowing that those two games are the future of the franchise pains me greatly ngl. I miss the real Dungeons, the Items, the green tunic, Epona, the formula in general. I still think a balance can be achived with the new formula and the old one, and with very little sacrifice, but we have to wait and see what happens.
OG Zelda fan here who purchased ocarina of time day on on the 64 and worked backwards and forwards from there. In my opinion as long as Aounuma is there, we’re safe. The heart and idea of what makes a Zelda game a Zelda game will always be there. When he moves on, let’s worry 😅
If they could keep a dark TP or MM vibe while having it open air it would be amazing. They need to bring back complicated dungeons cus that Water Temple in ToTK was WACK.
I personally think a good way of going forward would be to either make a hybrid of the two styles or make a traditional and open air Zelda game from time to time each. Getting another top down Zelda like A Link Between Worlds would be a dream come true. That game has the same open ended feeling of exploration as BoTW, since you're able to do what you want in whatever order but still limited by the top down over world. It's a perfect balance between traditional Zelda and the new games.
I don’t necessarily think the old formula is gone forever. At the very least, we will likely see the formula continue in smaller releases, such as the 2D Zelda games for handheld. I also think we will see more and more aspects from the old Zelda formula creep into the new games. The dungeons and story and sidequests in TotK are already an improvement upon the bare-bones dungeons and story and sidequests contained in BotW. Hopefully, as time goes on, this process will continue.
BOTW Made me play others Zelda games. Almost finishing the Skyward Sword on My Wii U. Middle of wind Waker HD as well. And I intend to play all Zelda games. I am amazed by skyward sword. But I do like BOTW style. The main zelda style is change and new mechanics. I see the next zelda being open world but at the same time I know it wont be BOTW gameplay. Zelda team will bring something new Ik that.
I mean Zelda kinda started as an open world game, and I think to a degree Ocarina of Time is kind of a open world on a much smaller scale. It seems to me that this open world formula has always been a part of the Legend of Zelda series, but it was never fully utilized until Breath of the Wild. Edit: Okay so maybe until Wind Waker
I have played Zelda over 28 years. The N64 (oot and MM) had me the most hyped ever. Botw made me feel like i wasn't playing Zelda at first. Still anazing games tough, just not very Zelda.
Honestly, I just want them to make the Zelda games focus around the Triforce again. I miss going into a dungeon and gathering a piece to make it whole again while fighting a boss.
I think the most reasonable course of action going forward is to bring back 2D Zelda games to have the classic Zelda formula. Just give us another game like A Link Between Worlds.
As a counter argument to the linearity in older games, while ALttP numbered the dark world dungeons, and OoT pushed you to each dungeon in order, I’m pretty sure you could do the Dark World or most of the adult dungeons in whatever order you want. In OoT, the Spirit Temple requires you be able to go back in time, which isn’t available until you’ve completed one adult dungeon. But the Fire, Water, and Forest temples only require the hookshot to get to (iirc). Even inside Jabu Jabu as a child only requires the dungeon item from Dodongo’s cavern to access. I think there was still a lot of freedom in those 2 games that the next Zelda could learn from. Or just do ALBW’s item buying again for choice.
Yes I think you're right! I remember at least Water and Shadow were interchangeable in OOT. ALTTP had the Dark World temples numbered (I think?) But the order itself didn't matter as long as you had the items. The approach was different though since Navi in OOT and the map in ALTTP told you the order the game wanted you to go in. But those are still a bit more open ended than the approach in WW/TP/SS.
Here's an idea, "open world dungeons". With the entire map of BOTW and TOTK, you have a few main quest points and a lot of optional exploring. Imagine an enormous temple that can be finished in only a few rooms, but the temples contain a ton of optional rooms to explore to obtain unique items.
Breath Of The Wild marked the beginning of a new era for Zelda. The devs had wanted to reboot the franchise as far back as Skyward Sword, but they simply didn't have the hardware to do it with the Wii. Suffice it to say that the old Zelda formula is well on its way out as far as new releases are concerned. The thing that people tend to forget regarding Zelda is that the very idea itself was inspired by Miyamoto's childhood exploration of the caves and outdoors by his home in Kyoto. The first game in the franchise reflects that vision, and Breath of The Wild is essentially a reimagined version of that original idea. People tend to get hung up on the linear Zelda's since those are the games most of us grew up with and are familiar with; but they were only linear since the hardware wasn't powerful enough to support that original vision of a completely open and interconnected world, without making some serious compromises like what they did with The Windwaker. This massive change has been years in the making and we're now finally seeing the fruits of all those ideas actualize. Tears of The Kingdom has done a great job at bridging the gap between the classic Zelda formula & Breath of The Wild's openness, especially in regards to the dungeons and the story. It capitalizes on the best parts of BoTW's original design, while also giving the dungeons, story and characters more depth than the first time around. It's a great game that makes BoTW feel outdated and obsolete, and I like the direction the franchise is starting to take. This is the future of the Zelda franchise, whether you want it to be that way or not.
Even in success (Skyward Sword had great reviews) the Zelda team still listened to feedback from the fans. Botw biggest complaint was the divine beast and they changed it (somewhat). The Zelda Team listens, I wouldnt put the possibility of changing the formula for the better down
Honestly, as much as I liked BotW, it's open world didn't really feel super engrossing to explore due to the very bare bones world building/lore and medicre to bad side quests. It's probably the most game-y open world that I've explored, and felt more like wandering through a Zelda theme park rather than a fully fleshed out place with history and actual societies.
Honestly, I'm very concerned for Zelda's future. My first games were Wind Waker and Spirit Tracks, I fell in love with their stories and the exploration and the charms of their dungeons. I thoroughly enjoyed the linearity and the feeling of satisfaction when you'd figure out unique puzzle after unique puzzle until the boss. I've played every entry since and grew in love with the world and its lore and its various stories. That's why BotW left me feeling disappointed. The lack of a proper story, the complete non-linear nature of the game, and the overall feeling of the game. I find it harder to get the same level of immersion with BotW as I did with other games. I'm still starting out with TotK (just beat my first temple, that being the Wind Temple) and, while the story is slightly better so far (a low bar set by BotW to be fair) and I find the world more interesting, still leaves me wanting for a bit more. A big step up from BotW though, but the Temples are still extremely basic. Though I guess that's to be expected due to the lack of items and just a small group of abilities to base puzzles off of. I just think focusing so much on non-linearity is such a silly gaming philosophy. Some is fine, but complete non-linearity just makes it to where going to certain areas doesn't have as much impact, be it because they're designed in a way that allows accessibility from any point in the game or just the overall balance in terms of enemies and the types of treasures. And the story situation is something I could harp on for ages. But really, I just want a proper overarching narrative. A companion would also be nice (the fact they didn't make Rauru your companion in this game is such a massive missed opportunity) rather than focusing on the player being isolated and giving them the reigns to doing whatever in whichever order.
Well this how they wanted Zelda to begin with. A lot of the 2d games have such a open world. They also tried to do it with ocarina of time and Majoras mask, those games are kind of open. But were limited with the technology.
Im sorry but where you say the series forgets where it came from, if anything its going back to it’s roots. The original Zelda game was an open world non linear game so if anything its taking a lot from the series roots and i for one am glad it’s changed, Zelda was getting boring and Skyward Sword was a boring game, the story was great but I was disappointed that SS was the 25th anniversary game we got. Ive been a Zelda fan since the NES and I can’t wait to see where it goes from here.
As someone who grew up with Ocarina and Twilight Princes in the Early 2000s, played every mainline release since, I am a little concerned for what the next step is. I was worried that TOTK would feel like a glorified DLC to BOTW, but as soon as I picked up the game I knew the Zelda team hadn't let us down. The same people who made the games of the past, (ie. BOTW was an INSTANT ambitious classic running on pretty underpowered hardware) and IMO have always delivered on the mainline games. Miyamoto, Aounuma and their team are some of the most clever, creative people in the industry and remembering that helps me rest assured the franchise is in good hands.
My problem with Skyward Sword HD is how the motion controls were implemented. I want to use the sword controls with my left hand because I am left handed, but the sword controls are automatically mapped to the right joycon without dexterity options to change it. If you want to use motion controls in the left hand for Skyward Sword, play the Wii version due to the ambidextrous design of the Wii remote.
I've been playing Zelda since a link to the past on the snes. I feel you, as fantastic as botw and totk are, I miss the traditional formula. What I find interesting is that Zelda on the NES is open world, but it evolved into a linear style with alttp. And there is no question about it. Alttp is very clearly a huge step up from the NES zelda. My feelings is that botw and totk are both simultaneously a step forward and backwards for the series. I hope that zelda evolve again for the next console, in the same way that alttp evolved from the NES zelda. Linear story telling and progression based dungeon design is entirely possible in an open world zelda game.
I feel like this problem is beyond just Zelda, people will say “this movie is too old for me” or “this song is too old for me” , 4K and modern is great but narrative, character development, and memorability is timeless
I've only really got into Zelda through Breath of the Wild when the game came out, and now Tears of the Kingdom; planning on returning and playing the older games. But anyway, I play a lot of Souls, and when Elden Ring came out, I was hoping that the dungeons/castles would stay linear, so I understand what you mean. Elden Ring did it best IMO, by mixing open world and linear dungeons, so maybe after ToTK, Zelda could do something similar, combining the two elements. (I definitely need to play the older games, coz I'm addicted to Zelda lore videos lol)
It 's like racing games half of the enjoyment in a racing game is how well constructed the tracks are. In an open world racing game you sacrifice the complex track design for the open world. Same with Zelda.
I've been playing Zelda since 1993 (I actually am the Ancient Cistern... lol) and so I've seen the series change a lot. OOT is my favorite game and I feel like the games that followed were all amazing in their own way (less so SS), they feel like they got a bit tired. SS really was a breaking point in a lot of ways but the dungeons in that game are fantastic for sure. BOTW was like playing OOT for the first time in 1998. It was new and fascinating. TOTK on the other hand feels like a better version of BOTW. I kind of feel it makes BOTW obsolete and I couldn't really say that about MM to Ocarina or any of the other 3D games. However obviously the next game will have a new world to explore instead of re-using a previous games map. To be honest, these open air games feel less like they're following OOT-SS and more so a 3D version of the original Zelda game. If Zelda 1 was made today... I think it would look very much like BOTW or TOTK. And I know part of that is intentional. And going back through the series, the people that liked the open ended world of Z1 never really had another game in that style as the series became more and more linear. WW to me feels similar in terms of the exploration but its still a very guided experience. So yeah, these new games feel very much like they've gone right back to a world before Link to the Past existed. They're basically soft reboots. That being said, I think they're incredible. If they can give us a game on TOTK's caliber with 8ish dungeons in the next game like some of the older dungeon beefy games then I don't think I can complain. The games that followed OOT were getting very long with their intros and were too handholdy and these new games feel like they basically get right to the point a lot faster. If they can somehow please what I think are the 3 pillars of Zelda games now (2D overhead, OOT traditional 3d Zelda, and Open Air games) then I think we'll be fine. For the main games, they're not going back. But I think they can continue to add elements of the linear games until they strike the right balance. Give us Open Air games, give us 2D games, but also make OOT-like games as well to tide us over while the main team is preparing the next big Open Air game. I think it can be done. I think the future of the series is exciting and I hope they're brave enough to go wacky and crazy one day like they did with MM and WW again. A game like TOTK with the Great Sea or something similarly out there would be awesome. Anyways just my thoughts. The Zelda team is the best game developer in the world and has been since ALTTP imo. I think they lost their way around TP-SS and they've recaptured what makes Zelda special again recently. My only hope is that they don't reuse world's again like they did with BOTW/TOTK. Its totally fine on this one occasion but I hope its not going to become a trend going forward. And with how long it takes to develop a game from beginning to end these days (we're being told its now around 6 years to create one of these) that they don't only give us 1 new world every 12 years. That would suck.
Exactly BOTW was unique and different however TOTK is like a refined version of BOTW. Some may say it lacks in originality however it is a better version of the game that people loved. I’m not worried about the future of Zelda Nintendo will make the next games different and what they can achieve on a Switch successor will be awesome.
I agree entirely. The BOTW formula is just going back to its open world roots. Hardware constraints made 3d more linear, once they knew they could make an open world on the wii u/switch hardware, they immediately went for it. It is interesting for sure. If they strike a balance with more traditional dungeons along side the open world, then they will be golden.
I disagree with the notion that Breath of the Wild is just a modern version of Zelda 1. It takes a lot of inspiration for sure, but Zelda 1 had required and numbered dungeons that increased in difficulty as the number increased. It also had dungeon items, several of them were necessary to complete later dungeons. I would say that Zelda 1 has about as much in common with the traditional formula as it does with Breath of the Wild.
@@robertgamer3112 I'm not so sure. I think BOTW scratches an itch that Zelda games after the original do not. Going where you want, when you want. Yes there's progression items and gate keeping here and there but I'm talking more about the broader scope of non-linearity. Dumping you in a world and saying "ok go whichever direction you want" is a lot different to games like Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword is my point which have you following an order of events.
@@head-cha-la It scratches one itch, but misses out on others. One person could reasonably say that BotW has everything they like about Zelda 1 and another could reasonably say that it has nothing that they liked from Zelda 1. It all depends on your tastes.
I've been playing Zelda since I was a kid (OoT was my first game) and I've had more fun with BotW and TotK than I had with any of the older 3D Zelda games but I agree. I hope they find a way to mix the new and old formats together. I love the freedom and creativity in the new games but I miss some of the linear design and classic item progression of the older games. I really miss the classic dungeons, progression, and stories. I think they could even just restrict exploration a little bit/force you to do certain things in a specific order and it would allow them to create grand stories again I absolutely loved BotW and am loving TotK but I hope the old style of Zelda isn't dead.
I’ve been playing Zelda for 25 years (I’m almost 32), and the new Zeldas feel like true Zelda experiences to me. In my eyes, the new games actually play the way I FELT like the old games played. BOTW gave me the same feeling, as an adult, that OOT did when I was younger (I never thought I’d feel that magic in a game again). When I was exploring Hyrule as a kid, it felt like this VAST, open adventure. I feel like the new games are giving us the full Zelda experience, that technical limitations prevented in the past. Remember, Miyamoto created Zelda to capture the feeling of going on adventures in the wilderness and exploring caves he experienced as a child.
I'm not worried about the future of Zelda, but I can see how someone could feel that way. Maybe its just me, because both Twilight Princess and TotK are now my favorite Zelda experiences. So i like the tradicional and open air aspect of Zelda.
I have played almost all the dungeons in TotK, they are good and like a good mix of old and new, I feel they could get better at this. Even then, the bosses and mini bosses are really good (fighting gleeok is really good).
So, for the future, they know what they are doing, don't see them making the errors of Ubisoft.
And I was thinking, they could do it like Xenoblade, an extensive world (with sections) with a massive story.
We just have to wait and see.
Taking inspiration from Xenoblade would be perfect! Xenoblade games have really awesome open worlds but on top of that really engaging stories. Even a game which is more open world/exploration focused like Xenoblade X still has a linear story to follow which limits progression at times.
@@nishquikpops yes, that's something I was thinking while playing TotK "How could they go from here?"
And then remember that MonolithSoft also helps them with Zelda, and I imagined that the next game could be like that, I think it would be a great evolution; maybe I'm biased because both Xenoblade and Zelda are my favorite franchises
@@silvershield9217 lol I am too since they're my top 2 as well 😄
I ave played every zelda games since A link to past to Twilight i ad minish cap the gba a link to past ad phantom hourglass and then by Skyward sword spirit track i ad my fatigue botw draw me back in but i already miss the older formula again i really enjoyed BOTW but TOTK i cant Play it the building and fusing really make it unjoyable for me ENNIWAY i preferred the older more story oriented also keep the massive open world keep the RPG stuff keep the crafting but everything about the shrine the powers the survival aspect remove all that in Ocarina of time the idea of a weapon breaking was a joke but now is a mean feature ! Why Magic rod break wen i use it why the legendary master sword break!? Give back the dongeon and the items ben re playing Ocarina on my 3DS and just aving my boomerang return to me feel refreshing! To me BOTW or TOTK are spinoff they ave radically different style that the previous games Hyrule warriors or Fire emblem warriors are spinof Metroid other M was a beat them all spinof etc
@Nishquik Pops i woud rather play Skyrim for the 500th time than play Botw or TOTK it as the best of both world not linear can even ignore the main story and be just a criminal if you want they is dongeon in the form of the cript multiple armor and weapon type and style THAT DOESN'T BREAK ave magic ave character creation ave crafting Personally Skyrim is just the perfect Zelda .... Allow me to create a zora i woud ave my racial perks woud use a trident water healing and ice offensive magic etc
I love both BOTW and TOTK, but I agree they have a completely different vibe compared to older Zelda games. Either way, I would love to see a new traditional Zelda game in the future!
Yeah maybe a smaller team like Grezzo could do a OOT style game? Who knows what the future of the series holds 😮
Tell that to the Zelda 2 and 3 fans who don't like oot.
@@nishquikpopsIs it bad that I would love an OOT remake in the ilk of the RE4 Remake, where it's generally the same but has some core changes that flush out the world more.
@@Kurasai56 I'd actually love that too. Maybe not like FF7R but the RE2/4 style would be perfect.
10 million copies sold in 3 days, I doubt they'll revert back to the traditional formula.
They should keep the open-world, but make the dungeons in the traditional style - small keys, special items, puzzles
And there needs to be more than 4 of them. I like the shrines, but only having four sections makes the story feel weaker, with worse pacing, and less of an adventure.
100% this, will even say i think we could do without shrines too just put traditional zelda items, heart pieces other stuff instead of stupid shrines
I totally agree. I was really upset when I discovered BOTW had nothing like that, and I had to do the stupid shrines.
My problems are that they make the game non linear by making everything optional. Like how the story is only progressed through flashbacks that don't change anything in the present, or how every loot and treasure is only something that *might* help a bit, while everything you'll actually need was given to you in the tutorial.
It's like they built their games for speedrunners
I hate the flashback method of storytelling. It never feels like Link does anything of importance, or effects the world at large because you’re seeing a past struggle through someone else’s eyes. I cared about Zelda’s struggle in TOTK, but I couldn’t effect or experience it in the present, so it created a huge disconnect between me and the game. I said on multiple occasions when watching the geoglyph memories “man, I wish I was playing THAT instead”. And BOTW’s story was a huge fumble where I didn’t care about anything; TOTK at least has that mystery appeal in the beginning, but BOTW starts with telling you the outcome of everything, so I don’t care about learning more of what happened when everyone’s already long dead.
At best the flashbacks make you feel like you’re experiencing an epic climax to a story you haven’t played, and at worst makes you apathetic towards everything and everyone in the game.
@@Hewasnumber1 Yeah for real imagine how cool it wouldve been to play Zelda's story instead. That's the one thing I wanted from the sequel to breath of the wild.
Yeah I'm so scared this is gonna be a trend for Zelda. Optional story via ANY method just sounds so WRONG for Zelda. Story has been a huge impact on the games for over 2 decades now. OOT: you see the consequences of childish heroic thinking, and must undo what happened cuz of you pulling the master sword. MM: you SEE the results of Majora tormenting the 4 corners of Termina. You don't witness the events first hand, but the aftermath surrounds you, and will surround you again and again no matter how many times u fix things, u gotta reset time. Even the (imo underrated) game Minish Cap has a good story. Come to find out this goofy bird hat guy was the TEACHER of this Vaati guy. It makes it even MORE personal to kick his butt. He hurt Zelda, her dad, and the kingdom, AND hurt this new friend + companion. SS gave us the lore of the BEGINNING OF HYRULE AND THE CURSED 100 YEAR CYCLE for goodness sake!!! Optional story DOES NOT FIT with what Zelda as a series IS.
@@levilombardi3162 Even though, I think they can accomplish the same kind of progression without relying on a linear narrative, like how both the N64 games and the switch games have kind of an episodic narrative at times, when you're given the choice of which zone to complete in the order you want. Traditionally, each zone would yield its own storyline, dungeon and gadget, which would then unlock access to new zones and stories. The switch games are just missing that latter part.
A recent game that does this very nicely is Animal Well, which has that metroidvania progression while also giving you access to every starting area all at once.
Oh, yeah, and older Zelda games with no optional stuff were fun af, lol. I don't want exploration in game to reward me with things I need to progress the story, I want exploration to open some optional stuff.
I started on the N64 OoT. I remember when it launched and seeing commercials for it!
I dont really like the new style. I played the two games yes, and beat them, but I haven't been back. I consumed them for the story and moved on. I'm not a fan becauee it feels like a "create your own content" kind of vibe.
The older games I still consume actively; currently going through MM. I admit that my enjoyment could be related to nastalgia. But the lack of a story that I'm actually a part in, the lack of tools and gear and the lack of traditional dungeons really hurt the games for me.
It feels like the zelda team took all the time making this amazing world that is fun to play in with solid combat then ran out of steam for anything else. It hurts.
I have to say, as a fellow traditional dungeon lover, dungeons in Zelda haven't been the same since Skyward sword. I do love BoTW amd ToTK but i wish they had more traditional complex and unique dungeons.
Zelda needs to go back to being a dark medieval fantasy series, I hope the next entry really goes back to its roots visually and thematically.
Exactly. I hated the technological "twist" of the game. Post-apocalyptic, sure. That's like having smart watches and tablets in Lord of The Rings. The story was also garbage.
I think the push toward freedom and non-linearity is the death of the fun I had with Zelda.
And it’s not just these two games. A Link Between Worlds had dungeons but the way that game worked resulted in them being very shallow and simple.
based winwaker pfp reaction
I disagree personally, if they were to make the equivalent of ALBW dungeons in a main game fashion, I would be more than satisfied.
Yeah it's not the same as the traditional ones, but what irks me most about the BOTW / TOTK temples is that they actively try and make them as non-linear and simple as possible.
ALBW dungeons scratch that itch of linear exploration for me.
@@hichaelhyers It's not ideal for me, but it would definitely be a step above shrines and divine beasts. The Gameboy Zelda games in particular were good about keeping your entire arsenal relevant. ALBW with its item rental turns each dungeon into the phrase "When all you have is a hammer." That and being non-linear meant none of them could be particularly difficult. Nothing anywhere near as complex as Turtle Rock from Link's Awakening by the end of the game.
I agree, ALBW was the beginning of the end. The structure of that game meant you went into the dungeon knowing exactly what item to use, because you needed the item to get in and only needed that item. In a "real" Zelda game you get the item half way through and that reveal re-contextualises bits of the dungeon that you've already seen.
@@thelastwindwaker7948 Yeah, Eagle's Tower and Turtle Rock were amazing! The divine beasts and even TotK's temples are "baby's first dungeon" in comparison.
When people call themselves zelda fans when they've only played botw, or choose totk as their first I get so sad.
The feeling I got when I first played ocarina of time, how ancient mysterious and lore-filled the dungeons/temples felt, the excitement of getting a cool new item(that doesn't break!) Ughhhhhh they should've made BotW its own separate thing
My problem isn't even the openness or the mediocre/just ok dungeons. It's the fact that in the open world, the actual content itself is a bunch of things that take like 20 minutes each, which pads out the time it takes to beat the game, but after like the 30th shrine and 40th korok, you start feeling how annoying it is to hear the same music and the same yahaha! multiple times an hour. I'm playing through Elden Ring and I started a bit before TOTK released, but holy shit is that game's exploration so much better. You never know what to expect and there's multiple areas that can take you hours upon hours. Each dungeon takes around 1-5 hours to beat, while it barely takes 45 mintues at most to beat even the best dungeon in Tears. And the "filler content" in Elden Ring or it's equivalent to shrines is so damn different everytime. There's the catacombs, caves and mines which are the shrine equivalents, but there's also some huge ass side dungeons, a whole underground area that's basically as big as a full dungeon, multiple castles, forts, dimensions, etc. with hours of content each. For example in Leyndell Capital city, you can find a couple of secret areas that lead you to a whole ass other level that can literally give you a different ending to the game. And in each dungeon there's like 2 other secret areas, multiple bosses in each dungeon, and on top of that they're not all just temples, they have different purposes in the world. Like the side-content in Tears vs. Elden RIng is genuinely laughable, despite it still being a lot of content. I can probably name all side content in TOTK in one sentence: side adventures, shrine quests, villages, caves, wells, stables, great fairies, sign puzzles, minigames and bosses (there's only 6 different types on the surface, 6 additional ones in the depths, 4 of which you have to fight in dungeons beforehand and there's only a single type of boss in the sky). Basically, there's no variety and the rewards for finding something cool that isn't a side-quest is always a shrine or a korok. Oh you climbed the tallest mountain in the game, here's a Korok, oh you found a secret labyrinth, here's a shrine and a small area of the map in the depths, oh you found 3 super random locations with yiga soldiers that you had to defeat to get an outfit that gives you access to an area that was literally a dungeon quest in the past game, here's a FUCKING SHRINE FOR YOU, oh you went to the most iconic bridge in the entire series, here's a boss you can do in 13 different places and it's also the most boring version of it, oh you found 1000 seeds scattered throughout the map and spent 150 hours trying to find them and only doing that because you finished everything else, but you still wanted to play the game and completely finish it? HERE'S A GOLDEN PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT FOR YOUR EFFORTS. Oh you found a ruined version of a representation of the 7 sages, here's a cave where you can kill a frog that'll give you a gem that's used to give you those 8 bat eye balls you really wanted. I don't care about the dungeons that much despite me really wanting them to come back like before BOTW, I just want the actual exploration itself to be fun.
Nintendo doesn't care about the old fans
I like having the games be open world but I really miss having better dungeons and storys. Don’t see why they can’t just do a game that’s open world but has traditional linear dungeons
I'm gonna miss the old Zelda formula. So
many of those games are a part of my childhood and even when I played Skyward Sword HD for the first time on switch it was such a fantastic experience. I realized I missed those old dungeons and the focus on story way more than I thought. I also miss when the soundtrack took center stage, it wasn't just calm piano background music, it was memorable catchy and helped so much with bringing the world to life. Don't get me wrong, I love BotW and TotK. However it would be sad if we had to leave the qualities that made the older Zelda games so great to make room for the open exploration that the new games are going for. I still believe it is possible to have those epic well designed dungeons of old with a strong story focus and strong melodic soundtrack while still keeping the new formula. Honestly if they managed to mix the two, I could easily see it becoming my favourite Zelda game, nostalgia aside of course.
A Link Between Worlds proved you can have a more open, non-linear structure *and* traditional item-based dungeons with unique themes. In that game, the story still had certain sync points, like leaving the tutorial, getting the master sword, going to Lorule and entering the castle, and you needed to complete a certain amount of dungeons to progress, but the order you did said dungeons was up to the player.
BotW and TotK's absolute commitment to boundless freedom is both a blessing and a curse, and I think the time will come for the Zelda team to sacrifice some of that freedom to restore some of that traditional Zelda magic and also shake things up a bit.
- Make the world a bit smaller and more dense. This will also result in better and more meaningful rewards for quests.
- Have a more structured style of progression, while still allowing for exploration and freedom between key story events.
- Integrate the "shrine" concept more with the world itself, possibly by placing the puzzles inside caves.
- There should be a good number of dungeons, with the BARE minimum being 5 or 6.
- The dungeons themselves should be thematically distinct, large in scale and mechanically complex, similar to the ones in Majora's Mask and the Ancient Cistern from Skyward Sword. Also like in that game (as well as TotK to an extent) you would get the necessary item during the quest leading up to entering the dungeon. Said item should also have combat applications and open up certain areas that are gated off at the start. IT'S OKAY TO NOT GIVE COMPLETE FREEDOM TO THE PLAYER AT THE START.
- DO NOT make Castle Town ruined again. I want to explore big, bustling towns and cities.
- Maybe go back to a more epic-sounding, orchestral soundtrack. BotW was fine and its music fit the style of the game, but it also resulted in the majority of the OST not being very memorable, and I consider that to be a core part of the series.
In their mission to rethink the conventions of Zelda, the team also got rid of many fundamental aspects of the series' identity. Forcing the player on a set path was a convention of Zelda. Having real dungeons was part of the soul of the series. In my opinion, while this is the right direction for the franchise, they just went too far in a few places.
But u just rented items boring 😢
this is why we need to contact nintendo and ask them please not to ruin zelda with too many changes like they did with TOTK.
I feel the same way I miss the linear structure that Zelda had now it doesn't even feel like Zelda
I am playing both Totk and Oot.
I like the two option. I prefer the more linear game like Skyward Sword but when I saw the temple of fire in Totk I think they manedge to find the perfect balance. Fun fact I'm also stuck at the fire temple in oot
As a fan of the series for 23 years. I thought BOTW was different and didn’t feel like Zelda to me. Don’t get me wrong, I love RPGs and open world games. I love Skyrim, Fallout and many other series for em. But, I played Zelda games, entirely for the purpose of story, atmosphere and dungeon puzzle solving. Each new Zelda game I was exited to play, because I wanted to be sold on the new spin on what Nintendo already does best. The story beats, beautiful soundtrack, the wacky characters, the handmade dynamic villages and dungeons. That’s what has always sold me on Zelda games. I don’t hate BOTW or TOTK, it just doesn’t invoke that same feeling Zelda used to give me anymore.
I feel like as time goes on, the team will probably find a way to combine both the traditional and classic formulas.
Hopefully the hookshot returns as well.
@@Danny328DT hookshots cool but it would basically be useless in botw and totk
@@cavemanbuddyolpal True, but I guess it could be a fun weapon.
@@Danny328DT yeah if it was reworked it could be great, I just remembered that it stuns enemies so they could probably just copy and paste the effect for dazzle fruit onto it
I'm hoping for a good balance. I just don't like all the scifi in these new games. Once I saw Link had a bionic arm on a youtube video I wasn't interested. Anciant and basic tech and steempunk I'm fine with but It's gone too far for me. If this is were zelda is hedding I'll just play the old games or wait till they return to thier roots.
Forgive me for the quality of this essay, I am writing it late at night.
I was thinking this a lot while playing TOTK. TOTK and BOTW are brilliant games, but they are only Zelda in name and appearance.
Zelda is known for its lavish set pieces, tight puzzles, item progression and the feeling of your options opening up as you progress.
BOTW and TOTK have all of those elements to an extent, but they are less intimate and less creative because they have to account for the world and the freedom needed to enjoy the world.
To start with the dungeons...
Traditional Zelda dungeons are all about linear progression. The entire experience is about seeing clues and being unable to understand/make use of them, then after solving a puzzle you earn an item which completely recontextualizes your options both in the dungeon and out in the overworld.
Games like TOTK give you all the tools to traverse the world from the start. This isn't a problem for the game in of itself, TOTK would suck if you got recall or ascend 1/2 through the game. The world you spend 80% of your time in is build around you being able to do everything from the start. However, linear dungeons thrive on you gaining access to a new mechanic in order to proceed. It forces you to make use of your limited options to move forward, which is thrilling and interesting.
If you design a dungeon in TOTK, in order to have that feeling of doors opening and progression you would need to either strip away the options the player currently has or make those options useless and create an arbitrary reason why a player could not progress, a reason which will have minimal influence on the game post the dungeon. Remember, the player needs to be able to take things at any order and the overworld cannot be filled with inaccessible points.
Dungeons are all about unique objectives which need to be solved, however you lose freedom in creating objectives if a player comes in with too many tools. Puzzles are all about people needing to think outside of the box with limited resources as opposed to people using a method they already understand to solve a problem.
A wall needing to be blown up isn't a puzzle in of itself, but a wall needing to be blown up where you don't have bombs requires you to make use of your surroundings, which requires you to think about your options and formulate a plan. Can I create something that can still break the wall without bombs? Can I find another way to pass the wall? Can I use logic to move a bomb that is normally out of range? However, a rocky explodable wall means nothing if a player will have 60 bombs in their pockets already.
Second is set pieces. Simple as it sounds, unique set pieces are part of the world, they don't go on top of the world. TOTK dungeons are kinda just plopped in open areas as opposed to being an organic part of the game's progression. A dungeon like the Sand Ship in TOTK would require an entire area to be dedicated to a mechanic which would mean nothing for the rest of the world. It works perfectly for Skyward Sword since you get another generally applicable mechanic in the dungeon, however in ToTK you wouldn't be getting the new power. Instead, one small part of the world would use a specific new mechanic that is useless everywhere else. That they make the mechanic required in other areas and you cannot interact with a huge part of the game until you get an optional item that could take you tens of hours to make your way to. For context, If you were allowed to just use electric arrows to charge the batteries, Riju would be wholly unneeded in her dungeon, that restriction is arbitrary. However, using the time crystals to turn machines on and off and wear down parts of the ship is very organic and creates situations you need to make use of your limited options to create openings for you to move forward. If you just had the power to change time at will, the dungeon would be identical to any other puzzle.
TOTK feels like a city built with interlocking parts that cannot be traded out or removed to create something that functions on a large scale. Traditional Zeldas feel like a decorated house, with more intimate design and freedom of expression, but on a much smaller scale.
I was hoping for a comment like this, I just wanted to understand people that still want "classic" Zelda and now I get nostalgia is such a blindfold, let me elaborate.
You say classic Zelda has "intimate design and character expression. But as I remember OOT and TO had only one solution to their challenges. And they were not that great either. Bosses were formulaic. Items were almost never use after the dungeon.
Totk has expression, I killed the wind temple boss by diving on, some others do with arrows, or throwing items, or rocket on shield, or whatever they can.
The bosses I've seen so many ways to be defeated, mainly flux bosses.
And abilities I keep using them way after their temple. I made a full dungeon using the ability from other temple because I did not want to make elixirs or spend on counteracting clothes for that environment
I can understand people saying. Botw wasn't as Zelda as the classic games. But totk is 6 years making Botw more Zelda. And it shows.
I have the same concern since the 2018, when I played botw for the first time
Simply by the fact that... I actually didn't like the game that much.
Zelda is my favorite gaming franchise of all time, I've been playing the series since I was a kid.
Idk, I apreciate that they tried to make a game very different from the other ones, but... It's not the Zelda game I was looking for. It was fun for the first couple of hours, even more because of the fact that I played in the same day that I got my nintendo switch (and im kinda disapointed on it, but thats another topic)
Idk, I just hope they manage to bring back the vibes que classic Zelda games had
I really wanted to like botw and totk. But is just not for me
Anyway, sorry for the typos. English is not my main language
Been playing 25+ year of The Legend of Zelda. What I want to see is Zelda keeping the approach of innovating and changing the formula. Have some open world and some more linear entries going foward, as to not grow stale in one style or the other. I miss magic, items, diving under water and my weapons not breaking. Building things is neat and all, but I miss the more fleshed out storylines and more complex dungeons of older titles. Every game in series delivers on music and characters. The only things I am glad are gone are painful backtracking segments like the Temple of the Ocean King (A.K.A. the Worst Dungeon Ever(Water Temple haters can suck it, I didn't think it was that bad)).
I do NOT like open world games. I feel like to some people think that If an open world game is done well, it’s the ULTIMATE game.
I really prefer linearity, so the depressing question that I already know the answer to is “is there still a place for me in this series?”
I LOVED breath of the wild when I first played it but now? It drains me. I just can’t play it anymore I’m so tired of the breath of the wild format with SHRINES and KOROKS and DURABILITY and tears of the kingdom had seemingly made it clear that I guess I’m done with Zelda.
I’ve loved this franchise since I was a little kid but I guess it’s not for me anymore.
I’m very bummed currently
You’ll see more open world Zelda game but in a different art style as now the botw troligy is over
Me too brother
The thing about adding dungeons to this new non linear zelda, is that they would have to remove shrines. All of the elaborate puzzles that would normally go into traditional dungeons are spent on the dozens of shrines. Its like they are taking what could have been full fledged dungeons and chopping them up into bite sized pieces to fit across the entire map
I kinda feel ww did that withe th island caves. Oneley 5 maby 6 dungions and all these uther little hidden places that could have bin used for a big dungion. Probley my oneley problem with that game.
I am kinda the opposite. I have NEVER doubted the Zelda team because they've never made a bad mainline Zelda title. At worst, they've made some weird spinoffs, but their consistency in quality and creativity is unmatched in the industry! So, instead of worrying about where the series is going, I'm beyond excited to see where it will go next! Zelda is starting to surpass Mario as Nintendo's most successful IP, which means each new title will have more resources invested into it, more talent, more money, more time! All of this to bring us the most monumental games of their respective eras! The future is looking VERY bright!
Yeah it's best to be optimistic because they usually never disappoint!
It's great to be optimistic but after playing both BoTW and ToTK as fantastic as they are they are also limited and restricted in parts that traditional Zelda games Excel at.
@@YOGI-kb9tgThese games did so well they might never go back to the old style of Zelda
Zelda 2 is pretty bad.
"Never made a bad Zelda game" and you've never played Zelda 2 or Phantom Hourglass
As much as I love BotW and TotK I really prefer the traditional dungeons because they are all unique but I believe there's a way to mix both in the next games. The Zelda team knows how much we love their games and they make with love and care. I'm sure there's nothing to worry about 😊 except for the timeline of TotK 😵💫
Just thinking about the timeline placement makes my head spin 😓😂
Man I loved that Wind Temple. Also, Skyward Sword HD gave us some much needed quality of life improvements, and it’s one of my favorites
SSHD made an already great Zelda game even better 😉
@@nishquikpops couldn’t agree more
You've got a point in this video and I wish the dungeons could be more like the traditional format. I do enjoy the current format...but the you bring up stone tower temple and that's a hard act to follow xD
"this game is outdated,...archaic..." when you see it as a "true gem...one of the most revolutionary games of all time" tbh I think people will say the same about ToTK in the far future. Life is all about change.
So unfortunately you can't have both... In the LTTP formula, each item essentially worked as a key to open doors to and within the next dungeon.
BoTW and ToTK would not work with items like that. Areas would be locked off if those items were implemented. It would break the openness those games are about.
I personally am one to just prefer the older formula to the point that I now kind of rely on games like metroid and metroidvanias to get that same experience of playing in a world that feels like one big *interconnected* puzzle. What I think games like Zelda, Metroid and subsequently metroidvanias mostly seem to do amazingly well as opposed to BotW is kind of provide this feeling of expanding scope based on your actions. get item -> can explore more places that can find more items recursively, so on and so forth until final boss. At a mechanical level, it *feels* like an epic, but BotW and to a much lesser degree TotK both kind of feel like a set of distinct events/challenges that have no relation to each other and feel somewhat same-y in comparison. I still do look forward to what *new* directions the open world Zelda will take on moving forward now though seeing how they literally decided to combat that "sameness" with even *more* freedom by allowing the player to literally build machines. Who knows, maybe there *will* be a hybrid "open world" with traditional dungeons and unlockable unique abilities.
I am sorry but no, Zelda's game essence has always been dungeons, its what has always set it apart from other adventure games. And I just can't end up liking completely thisnew Zelda open world formula. And I really feel offended with what we get as "dungeons" in this new games ahd here is why:
- There is literally nothing stopping your progression on these places, you can just go wherever the F you want to go..(I really miss doors and keys)
- There are literally no enemies in your way and the few we get are just generic Zonai frikin robots that have nothing to do with the dungeon's theme, and lets not even talk about the ones in BOTW
- I hate the "Just activate 4 switches and fight the f-ing boss formula" Like are you kidding me? How can that be a proper dungeon? WTF that is NOT a dungeon
- I miss key items being what dungeons were built around, it made them have their own "personality" and no other dungeons were alike the others, at leaat they could have used the Sheikah abilities for that purpose.
- The level of challenge on these dungeons honestly is brain dead, at least in BOTW they kinda had you thinking a bit more with this "space changing" in the Divine Beasts, still they are so forgetable.
Summing up they will never be a memorable part of the experience on these new Zelda games anymore and it breaks my heart so badly how they butchered the SOUL of what makes a Zelda game a Zelda game, that is DUNGEONS, proper dungeons not this bs we get nowadays, take them out and you have any other game but a Zelda game...
My problem with the new dungeons in TOTK is that they feel too short… not that big. But that’s understandable with the massive world they give you.
I also agree with your thoughts on the dungeons. Open exploration is fun but in a sense forgettable in a sea of endless small interactions. The classic dungeon is a statement and sticks with you leaving you with a since of accomplishment and satisfaction. Your left with a finely crafted themed puzzle that represents thoughts and expressions of the hardships of the natives of the game. It will be missed if it does not make a return
In short for me at least. If the dungeons to short to leave an impression. It’s forgettable and I’ll just move to the next. Because the effort and reward were not equal. You know Math
Before I take this bong rip I'd like to say, the difference of traditional Zelda games to open world Zelda games is probably how people saw the shift from 2D to 3D back in the 90's. In fact around that time people probably argued the games went from being sorta open world in games like LTTP to somewhat linear like in OOT, or 2D Zelda's are more comparable to BotW/TotK in the sense that you can tackle things in mostly any order. The series is ever-evolving with time and I'm glad Nintendo can breathe some fresh air into it every now and then, I only hope they can expand and bring in some of the elements that you brought up that made those linear 3D such a unique story-driven experience.
Actually no... oot was basically lttp but in 3D... we where all shocked and thrilled by it... Also there wasn't an internet where everyone could sob about shit...
how was OOT linear?
@@lolpe1000 Yeah, there is a weird historical revisionism with how OOT was received back in the 90s. NOBODY said that OOT was more (nor less) linear than any other previous Zelda game. That conversation started off around the time of "The Minish Cap", and grew over time up until "Skyward Sword", where it reached its cenit.
@@CSProduction12 I was there, Gandalf. I was there on the internet 3000 years ago. I recall using AOL, over dial-up, looking in anticipation at early screenshots of what was then called Zelda 64 and is now known as Ocarina of Time. I recall being on early Zelda fandom message boards after its release (ezboard and such). Most everyone loved OOT, that much is true. But there was some that, despite loving the "new" games in the series like OOT and MM, felt that it lost something in the jump to 3D. Pretty similar to what's happening now with the transition from "traditional" Zelda to "modern" Zelda.
You might not have met them, but they were there.
@@lolpe1000 maybe instead of "linear" we should say "limited". But I have a feeling that would also ruffle feathers. Generally though I think by linear the critics mean that we have to proceed this way> in order to get this> which unlocks this and so on. Modern Zelda does away with this by freeing the player to explore the large world mostly as they see fit. There have been side effects, the story has become thin, very thin. The dungeons or temples are more equal and lack that feeling of progressive difficulty and complexity(and theme). Story and dungeons can be addressed over time and they are already trying to improve in those aspects in ToTK I can see it. For now as they say, trust the plan.
Personally I think Zelda was at it's best with TP, OoT and MM being close contenders in large part because they were my first two. I really miss getting lost in a water temple I miss dungeons being dungeons, having floors, keys, items that facilitate doing other things in other parts of the game... BotW and TotK just don't give me that, they don't give me nearly as much by way of story or lore. Sure, they're good games in their own right though for me TotK would be a lot better if BotW hadn't existed, I sank most of my interest and replayability for TotK into BotW which I suppose could be taken as a sign that Zelda already has the open world issue.
On the point about story and lore, OoT, TP, even Skyward Sword (which I didn't like that much) all had good stories, they had lore and Link was an active part of those stories, but BotW and TotK the story happened in the distant past and Link is just cleaning up Zelda's mess, it feels like I'm picking at scraps by comparison. Ganon, in OoT and TP he had motives for conquering Hyrule, in the BotW era it's just "he's evil" and pretty much for the sake of it. The sheikah tech, it existed, why? The divine beasts, okay, they wanted weapons to fight Ganon but why beasts? The King ordered the technology buried, the technology that apparently recently saved his kingdom, for what reason was it buried? None of these questions are answered.
I just feel like the dev team decided to trade story and lore depth for creative freedom and I don't like it.
I honestly think they can do both. I think they should make “traditional” linear 3D Zelda games inbetween their “open air” Zelda games. I look at a game like a link between worlds that released after skyward sword but before breath of the wild, and it showed that Nintendo still wanted to make the older 2D style Zelda games along side their main 3D games at the time. The open air style zelda games are obviously so succesful that they’ll keep making them like this, but I think they could do linear 3D (or even 2D) style games in between the BOTW/TOTK style games, because I think that both styles have their strengths. I really like how the linear zelda games (both 2D and 3D) tell their stories and I find the linearity of them makes the storytelling more effective and efficient, so I don’t think Nintendo should abandon this style outright.
A Link Between Worlds was an awesome spiritual successor to A Link to the Past, I think Nintendo is sitting on a masterpiece of a game of they made a spiritual successor to Majoras Mask with a major focus on side quests and 3 day time mechanic and intricate world schedules and everything. They could even expand on it by making an entire week long mechanic with really intricate and elaborate puzzles that really flesh out the world. Anyway, I dream about this hypothetical game that will probably most likely never exist lol.
I bought TOTK day 1, and to be honest I haven’t felt much motivation to play it. However, recently I’ve felt much more inclined to go back to older games, I’ve been blazing through OOT, and minish cap, and when I play OOT and MM, I just get this almost addictive feeling that I just don’t want to stop playing that I also got from A link between worlds. Although, I haven’t yet felt this feeling with TOTK, not saying it’s a bad game, it just hasn’t caught my interest as much as other games have yet. And it’s probably due to the change in formula.
I'm gonna hop on Minish Cap and ALBW once I'm done with TOTK to scratch the classic Zelda itch I've got!
It's not likely the formula, but the genre.
I agree!! Open world is so overrated and overused with a lot of games nowadays. Just because it’s bigger doesn’t mean it’s better I remember back then games had great level design.
As someone that has been playing them since the NES I can say it feels great.
I hope they can put more dungeons into the world and keep the shrines as well.
Currently this feels like an actual adventure and not a linear story.
If you've played since the nes then youd understand that zelda 1 even with a more "exploration" based "game play" had actual dungeons locked behind item progression as well as heart pieces. It didn't have 150 boring shrines to get a mediocre replacement for a heart piece. Ah yes this feels like an adventure *finds shrines and seeds only and the occasional wack weapon*
I’m fine with non linear but I just want temples back where you have to look for a mini boss get a new weapon and then look for the master key and go to the boss room and beat the boss. I also want durability gone.
I feel like TotK could have very well have included traditional puzzle box Zelda dungeons by placing them in the Depths, being more cut off from the open world layout of the surface. It would have been perfect that upon entering one you’d be closed off and you’d have to figure out how to exit the dungeon without being able to clip out of it or fly around too much, only using your ultra hand to solve a specific puzzle in each room while collecting keys and then fighting a unique boss at the end. Hopefully a future DLC could add this 🤞🤞
I’ve been playing Zelda games for 30 years I wasn’t sure about botw I’ve given up on totk at the moment but I will go back to it. I think I’m just tired of open world games I much prefer linear games with the feeling of being open like the past Zelda games although ss is a bit too linear for me my favourites are oot mm ww and tp. I feel lost as a Zelda fan right now to be honest. I just can’t see why they couldn’t have put real dungeons in botw it breaks my heart 💔 that’s why I play the games for those dungeons! Also the music is absolutely rubbish now but I understand what they were trying to do.
Hmmm…
I’ve been playing Zelda games since the 90s, and at least in my opinion, they have not changed in essence, to me BotW and TotK still feel like TLoZ games, at least I can see through the changes, innovations and redefinition they’ve gone through.
You voiced your concerns about hoping Zelda doesn’t fall into doing the same over and over like other companies have done with open world games, but that’s exactly what Nintendo is not doing, sticking with the same formula over and over.
OoT set a standard for many video games that came after it.
The Z-targeting system was brilliant, never seen before, not to mention the dungeon designs all in 3D, my mind was so blown away, I remember I would have dreams about them as if I was living in them.
Now we have BotW and TotK, they are both unique in the open world video game industry, just as OoT, they are setting standards in open world design that many will copy in the future, and if you find perplexing the 30M BotW copies sold, let’s see where TotK ends when it had a 3 day 10M copies sold to start with.
I’m sure you can feel how the concept they are offering us has evolved from BotW to TotK, the later also having more “traditional” dungeon elements added than the former, still not like it used to be, but that’s in my opinion, not a bad thing, it’s an ever evolving franchise and I love it for it!
What I do miss, I’m sure they will implement it at some point, is an under water temple, specially with the freedom we have now with the new mechanics, an underwater dungeon would be crazy, but I’m sure it is just as crazy to pull off development wise.
Nothing last forever, everything evolves in nature, and that’s the way it should be, at some point in the future, Zelda will shift to a different concept, and hopefully it will continue to set standards other will be blown away by and follow!
I have a different way to approach the Zelda games (and my first Zelda was Ocarina of Time, I played it in N64 when I was 6 or 7 years old). What characterizes Zelda is not a formula, it is innovation. A Link to the Past stablished a formula, yes. But it changed everything in it's own moment. Also Skyward Sword (although it is not my favourite precisely), and Ocarina of Time, and Majora's, and Twilight Princess, and Link's Awakening (what crazy story)...
So I'm always open to new ideas.
The original 3D formula was perfected in Twilight Princess, as evidenced by how stifling and closed off Skyward Sword feels. That formula will probably (hopefully) live oin in the top down/2D format, but as far as the big 3D adventures go, the sandbox/open world concept is just so much more fresh and interesting.
I'm HYPED for the future of the series. Come on, guys. Nintendo proved, that they don't want to always stay the same when it comes to Zelda. BotW and TotK are the perfect example. Why would you fear, that Zelda will always stay the same moving forward? Nintendo will keep coming up with new things.
Yup you're right. It's good to feel optimistic and we should bc Nintendo is always a step ahead and makes the best games. Especially when it comes to Zelda!
I'm wondering what people mean with "traditional Zelda" considering 2D and 3D Zelda are different beasts and have coexisted for years...
I club 2D and 3D games pre BOTW as traditional. Traditional means more linear, set path, not as open ended, with puzzle box dungeons which are also linear, and more story focused. No one formula is better than the other, but if they keep the open air formula, I'll just miss what we had before.
I've been a zelda fan ever since I was born so 13 years.
I started with Wind Waker SD. Easily one of my favourite games of all time and it got me hooked in zelda. From there I played the ds games then oot, mm and twilight princess. I loved all of them.
Then botw came out and it was just incredible. I sunk 1000 hours into it. I loved every bit of it. Then totk came out and its my favourite game oat right now.
But, I really hope they either find a way to combine the new style with the old style or release traditional games alongside the new style games. To be honest though, i trust the zelda team. I know whatever they make will be amazing
1996 guy here. Yeah they can stay with the open world, open ended... for another game or two I suspect. But there is much they need to fix for this new formula to work long term. Reality is the new games look impressive and play just as good but they are limiting from a design and structure perspective and have some other disadvantages. The serious issue. If you look at BotW and TotK side-by-side you'll see there isn't much difference other than the paint mechanically speaking and if you place them side-by-side with older games you'll see that the mechanics are lacking in comparison. You'll also see that while the world is open it loses the metroidvania elements that really propelled the older games into classics. While much of this is nothing new as old Zelda games typically share mechanics heavily, each game did have an unique trait (that played into the game), could fall back onto a secondary element like story (Which the new games pushed into the back seat by making them past tense cutscenes) and from time to time did venture into new territory mechanically with items. While increased mechanic options and elements such as metroidvania style design could hold the player's interest, make the game exciting and continue to give direction if necessary.
Thank you for mentioning the metroidvania aspect of past Zelda games. That was the part that always appealed to me, not the exploration
What do you mean “to work long term”. BotW and TotK are one of the most popular and highest rated games in the last 15 years
@@g3babyes bcos ppl like open world games it shouldn’t all b about money they’ve abandoned their og fans for the almighty dollar
When it comes to dungeons in BOTW-style Zelda, I feel like a 'proving grounds' shrine format would be a sick way to make the dungeons harder to cheese.
You're stripped of your equipment and items, stuck in a labyrinth of enemies and puzzles with only your skills, upgrades, and whatever you find inside the dungeons.
I've played 2 of the dungeons in TOTK and you literally can just whip out a machine and cheese it entirely, which is fun in its own way, but also a bit lame.
Ooo, yeah! I like that idea! You could actually do an entirely traditional Zelda Dungeon that way, as once you entered, you'd be stripped, and you could only use what you forage, and then you could find a Key, permanent item, which would ultimately solve the dungeon! I think you're onto something!
If you find it boring then don’t use the zonai machines lol. I don’t use them in shrines or dungeons, unless they’re provided to solve the puzzle.
we just want WW and TP remakes. he’ll, even a OOT and MM actual REMAKE. you can easily do that WHILE also making new Open World Zelda games. not hard. I don’t want to buy a wii u and 100$ games just to play WW and TP again
I don't think there's any reason to worry personally. The Legend of Zelda is one of Nintendo's darlings, and it's a company known for their, almost to a fault, insistance on new ideas and concepts. I don't think we'll ever see it become a low effort repeat kind of game series. But I do hope they start switching up the art style and world again after TotK.
I just need Nintendo to make a console to allow for better graphics
Hopefully next year 🙏🏽
Dating myself here, but I played the first LoZ game, on the NES...a short while after it came out. I find it interesting you're using LttP as your starting point for this franchise, when the very first game did the things you were talking about - overworld exploration, dungeons with enemies/puzzles (puzzles usually amounted to find the secret wall or kill the enemies), and fighting bosses. Zelda 2, also NES, was the game that introduced linearity. If memory serves, the only gate in the first game was you had to beat the first eight dungeons before you could do the last one. Everything else was entirely up to the player. Where you want, what order you did dungeons, all up to you. Zelda 2 forced you on a linear progression path. LttP felt like an amalgamation of those two. You had rewarding exploration, and forced linearity. I agree with you on the bosses at the end of the temples, but I still feel BotW or TotK has really nailed down dungeons yet. The Temples felt like bigger divine beasts to me.
I always find it funny when people try to define what a Zelda game is, and point to whichever games support their own side. To me, every Zelda game is a Zelda game. The series has evolved over decades. Some evolutions are more popular than others with different segments of the fan base.
I would highly doubt we'll see much regression in the Zelda formula, but I do hold out hope that this series will get the Metroid Dread treatment. From out of nowhere, we get a Zelda game that's more akin to the older/2D style. We kind of got it with the Awakening remake, but I'd love to see a new story told in an older style.
I'm skeptical that we can really see a return to the older style of dungeons in these games, because of the crazy amount of power we get. The Sheikah powers in BotW and the Ultrahand powers in TotK are really only limited by our imagination. I don't know how you balance a tough and engaging puzzle when players can just rocket blast past it, or create some never before seen contraption and cheese it. I know I did this in more than a few shrines. It was hilarious, but how do you make a puzzle that accounts for that? Puzzles are about giving the player enough information and tools to solve it, and BotW/TotK give the player way too much power in that regard. I think that's why we see much smaller scale puzzles in the temples.
Now that I've written my book, thanks UA-cam for recommending a new creator. Looking forward to seeing more of your work!
I’m not worried about the future despite my many issues with the botw/totk formula
Why? Because I love both style of Zeldas but I am worried for the traditional style and I only ask they keep the 2D traditional games around at the very least.
Totk is selling 20+ million copies already I don’t understand why they can’t hire a new team to work on smaller traditional Zelda
I hope the next game is open air again but this time taking place in Termina from Majora's Mask playing as the fierce diety.
It all started with the very first zelda wich was also open world … so the original vision for the zelda franchise was open world …. This is the zelda we should of always had !
After TOTK I am convinced that Nintendo can not marry the two formats. Since I like classic I will be staying away from zelda for the foreseeable future...TOTK was such a disappointment but its being lauded as the "Perfect game" by everyone. Its at this point someone like me needs to cut my losses and walk away as there is no way they will make a "open world" game I like.
What I miss about the old Zelda formula was finding new items and being able to do something new from it. Breath of the Wild went with the concept of getting all your abilities at the start to solve its open ended puzzles which was fun to play around with but felt a bit stale by mid to late game because of I'd stick to a common solution I've had since the start of the game.
Tears of the kingdom sort of fixes this with the Zonai devices being sort of a new item and just the amount of other items like the elemental fruit. The shrines this time around also seem more like mini tutorials that give you ideas of how the Zonai devices work or how your abilities can be used which has been making things feel a bit like the old Zelda games since even though I have access to all these devices and abilities, the shrines do show you something new at times. The dungeons I think still feel a bit lacking though because the treasure chest in them are just generic weapons and the open ended nature still makes them rather short.
I like the new Zelda formula and the future looks bright if they can keep introducing deep systems that give players a sense of discovery but I can also see things ending poorly if it becomes their focus leading to some sort of burnout of ideas.
Whatever happens I hope they atleast go back a bit to the old formula of finding new items.
Don't worry...
about a thing...
'cause every Zelda game...
is gonna be made right!
.....maybe....
I’ve been a Zelda fan since very late 2013, my first Zelda was Wind Waker HD, and upon beating it, I became an instant fan
As for the Open World gameplay style, I’m optimistic for its use for future 3D Zelda as BotW & TotK are like testing grounds and they can build upon what works and create new ideas in the mix to create a very amazing 3D Zelda game, I just hope we get more memorable Dungeons like the old days
Do you remember that tech demo from 2011 I really want that
Let us buy limited keys in shops/sometimes discover them out in the world, sometimes in dungeons.
You can access the dungeons in any order but you have to strategically use your keys, even stealing one from another dungeon and skipping those locked doors with an item you can get later. Idk if I'm cooking or not but this could help bridge the gap I think.
I'm not worried. Zelda is about exploration at its core. I do think maybe they could experiment with dungeons in an open world in the future. That being said, I think they should have open world for 3D and then traditional for 2D.
ALBW did the non linear gameplay style perfectly so I'm hoping for another 2D game like that!
The original Zelda that I played 36 years ago WAS open world. The game is finally being made how it was originally wished to be before the technology was there. This is the original imagining of the game. It’s the incredible linear games that were the different than imagined versions.
I feel like they could land in a solid middle ground that caters to all types of Zelda fans. Bring back more traditional dungeons, but allow for more creativity in solutions. My biggest issue with the dungeons in TotK while they nailed the aesthetic, and themes for the most part the core mechanic to each of them is not only too similar to each other, but the divine beasts as well. Aside from that, and the lack of utility items I feel like TotK did manage to get as close to that middle ground as we've gotten yet.
Who the hell likes the first zelda game
@@teupaiocabalo3893 a lot of people. I myself being a newer fan can see the charm in it, but I can see why it'd be hard for other newer fans of the franchise to get into. The secrets are just trial and error without a guide, and some are almost mandatory. This along with many other issues mainly due to the hardware limitations can make it very jarringly different than future instalments.
@@swagmiredoesall you forgot the most important part, it's shit like Zelda 2.
The first Zelda game will always be A Link to the Past.
OG here . Literally was a kid playing ocarina . Played the original, Zelda 2 . The oracles and all the 3ds. Here to say it’s time to let the ocarina template go . Botw and tears were needed badly the creators themselves even admitted to growing tired of the old formula . It’s time to grow .
What can I say, When Ocarina of Time came out in 1998 I was 2 years old. My dad was a OG fan since the original Zelda, and even back then when I was that young I was been exposed to the series making it my most treasured piece of entertainment to date. Excluding Triforce Heroes and both four swords, I have played every single game and love them all, and I really really like Botw and Totk, but the dread of knowing that those two games are the future of the franchise pains me greatly ngl. I miss the real Dungeons, the Items, the green tunic, Epona, the formula in general. I still think a balance can be achived with the new formula and the old one, and with very little sacrifice, but we have to wait and see what happens.
OG Zelda fan here who purchased ocarina of time day on on the 64 and worked backwards and forwards from there. In my opinion as long as Aounuma is there, we’re safe. The heart and idea of what makes a Zelda game a Zelda game will always be there. When he moves on, let’s worry 😅
Sometimes, Miyamoto should breathe him a little down the neck. After all, Miyamoto made the first Zelda to evoke feelings of his outdoors childhood.
If they could keep a dark TP or MM vibe while having it open air it would be amazing. They need to bring back complicated dungeons cus that Water Temple in ToTK was WACK.
I personally think a good way of going forward would be to either make a hybrid of the two styles or make a traditional and open air Zelda game from time to time each. Getting another top down Zelda like A Link Between Worlds would be a dream come true. That game has the same open ended feeling of exploration as BoTW, since you're able to do what you want in whatever order but still limited by the top down over world. It's a perfect balance between traditional Zelda and the new games.
I don’t necessarily think the old formula is gone forever. At the very least, we will likely see the formula continue in smaller releases, such as the 2D Zelda games for handheld.
I also think we will see more and more aspects from the old Zelda formula creep into the new games. The dungeons and story and sidequests in TotK are already an improvement upon the bare-bones dungeons and story and sidequests contained in BotW. Hopefully, as time goes on, this process will continue.
BOTW Made me play others Zelda games.
Almost finishing the Skyward Sword on My Wii U.
Middle of wind Waker HD as well.
And I intend to play all Zelda games.
I am amazed by skyward sword.
But I do like BOTW style.
The main zelda style is change and new mechanics.
I see the next zelda being open world but at the same time I know it wont be BOTW gameplay.
Zelda team will bring something new Ik that.
How can you get have way through Windwaker, I played the whole thing constantly until I beat it on my old GameCube. Had to be around 2006
Great and important video! It would be great to see nintendo go back to the alttp and oot formula!
I want a 2D Zelda that is non linear entirely.
I mean Zelda kinda started as an open world game, and I think to a degree Ocarina of Time is kind of a open world on a much smaller scale. It seems to me that this open world formula has always been a part of the Legend of Zelda series, but it was never fully utilized until Breath of the Wild.
Edit: Okay so maybe until Wind Waker
Would love to see the original legend of zelda (1987) made in botw/lotk style.
I have played Zelda over 28 years. The N64 (oot and MM) had me the most hyped ever. Botw made me feel like i wasn't playing Zelda at first. Still anazing games tough, just not very Zelda.
Honestly, I just want them to make the Zelda games focus around the Triforce again. I miss going into a dungeon and gathering a piece to make it whole again while fighting a boss.
I think the most reasonable course of action going forward is to bring back 2D Zelda games to have the classic Zelda formula. Just give us another game like A Link Between Worlds.
As a counter argument to the linearity in older games, while ALttP numbered the dark world dungeons, and OoT pushed you to each dungeon in order, I’m pretty sure you could do the Dark World or most of the adult dungeons in whatever order you want.
In OoT, the Spirit Temple requires you be able to go back in time, which isn’t available until you’ve completed one adult dungeon. But the Fire, Water, and Forest temples only require the hookshot to get to (iirc). Even inside Jabu Jabu as a child only requires the dungeon item from Dodongo’s cavern to access.
I think there was still a lot of freedom in those 2 games that the next Zelda could learn from. Or just do ALBW’s item buying again for choice.
Yes I think you're right! I remember at least Water and Shadow were interchangeable in OOT. ALTTP had the Dark World temples numbered (I think?) But the order itself didn't matter as long as you had the items. The approach was different though since Navi in OOT and the map in ALTTP told you the order the game wanted you to go in. But those are still a bit more open ended than the approach in WW/TP/SS.
Here's an idea, "open world dungeons". With the entire map of BOTW and TOTK, you have a few main quest points and a lot of optional exploring. Imagine an enormous temple that can be finished in only a few rooms, but the temples contain a ton of optional rooms to explore to obtain unique items.
There's no traditional dungeons, the temples are completely different from the old stuff and way more like the divine beasts
Breath Of The Wild marked the beginning of a new era for Zelda. The devs had wanted to reboot the franchise as far back as Skyward Sword, but they simply didn't have the hardware to do it with the Wii. Suffice it to say that the old Zelda formula is well on its way out as far as new releases are concerned.
The thing that people tend to forget regarding Zelda is that the very idea itself was inspired by Miyamoto's childhood exploration of the caves and outdoors by his home in Kyoto. The first game in the franchise reflects that vision, and Breath of The Wild is essentially a reimagined version of that original idea.
People tend to get hung up on the linear Zelda's since those are the games most of us grew up with and are familiar with; but they were only linear since the hardware wasn't powerful enough to support that original vision of a completely open and interconnected world, without making some serious compromises like what they did with The Windwaker. This massive change has been years in the making and we're now finally seeing the fruits of all those ideas actualize.
Tears of The Kingdom has done a great job at bridging the gap between the classic Zelda formula & Breath of The Wild's openness, especially in regards to the dungeons and the story. It capitalizes on the best parts of BoTW's original design, while also giving the dungeons, story and characters more depth than the first time around. It's a great game that makes BoTW feel outdated and obsolete, and I like the direction the franchise is starting to take.
This is the future of the Zelda franchise, whether you want it to be that way or not.
Even in success (Skyward Sword had great reviews) the Zelda team still listened to feedback from the fans. Botw biggest complaint was the divine beast and they changed it (somewhat). The Zelda Team listens, I wouldnt put the possibility of changing the formula for the better down
Honestly, as much as I liked BotW, it's open world didn't really feel super engrossing to explore due to the very bare bones world building/lore and medicre to bad side quests.
It's probably the most game-y open world that I've explored, and felt more like wandering through a Zelda theme park rather than a fully fleshed out place with history and actual societies.
Honestly, I'm very concerned for Zelda's future. My first games were Wind Waker and Spirit Tracks, I fell in love with their stories and the exploration and the charms of their dungeons. I thoroughly enjoyed the linearity and the feeling of satisfaction when you'd figure out unique puzzle after unique puzzle until the boss. I've played every entry since and grew in love with the world and its lore and its various stories.
That's why BotW left me feeling disappointed. The lack of a proper story, the complete non-linear nature of the game, and the overall feeling of the game. I find it harder to get the same level of immersion with BotW as I did with other games. I'm still starting out with TotK (just beat my first temple, that being the Wind Temple) and, while the story is slightly better so far (a low bar set by BotW to be fair) and I find the world more interesting, still leaves me wanting for a bit more. A big step up from BotW though, but the Temples are still extremely basic. Though I guess that's to be expected due to the lack of items and just a small group of abilities to base puzzles off of.
I just think focusing so much on non-linearity is such a silly gaming philosophy. Some is fine, but complete non-linearity just makes it to where going to certain areas doesn't have as much impact, be it because they're designed in a way that allows accessibility from any point in the game or just the overall balance in terms of enemies and the types of treasures.
And the story situation is something I could harp on for ages. But really, I just want a proper overarching narrative. A companion would also be nice (the fact they didn't make Rauru your companion in this game is such a massive missed opportunity) rather than focusing on the player being isolated and giving them the reigns to doing whatever in whichever order.
Well this how they wanted Zelda to begin with. A lot of the 2d games have such a open world. They also tried to do it with ocarina of time and Majoras mask, those games are kind of open. But were limited with the technology.
Im sorry but where you say the series forgets where it came from, if anything its going back to it’s roots. The original Zelda game was an open world non linear game so if anything its taking a lot from the series roots and i for one am glad it’s changed, Zelda was getting boring and Skyward Sword was a boring game, the story was great but I was disappointed that SS was the 25th anniversary game we got. Ive been a Zelda fan since the NES and I can’t wait to see where it goes from here.
TotK does have some more classic Zelda vibes than BotW. Feels like that anyways.
As someone who grew up with Ocarina and Twilight Princes in the Early 2000s, played every mainline release since, I am a little concerned for what the next step is. I was worried that TOTK would feel like a glorified DLC to BOTW, but as soon as I picked up the game I knew the Zelda team hadn't let us down. The same people who made the games of the past, (ie. BOTW was an INSTANT ambitious classic running on pretty underpowered hardware) and IMO have always delivered on the mainline games. Miyamoto, Aounuma and their team are some of the most clever, creative people in the industry and remembering that helps me rest assured the franchise is in good hands.
4:12 just wait until you encounter the lightning temple
My problem with Skyward Sword HD is how the motion controls were implemented. I want to use the sword controls with my left hand because I am left handed, but the sword controls are automatically mapped to the right joycon without dexterity options to change it. If you want to use motion controls in the left hand for Skyward Sword, play the Wii version due to the ambidextrous design of the Wii remote.
I've been playing Zelda since a link to the past on the snes. I feel you, as fantastic as botw and totk are, I miss the traditional formula. What I find interesting is that Zelda on the NES is open world, but it evolved into a linear style with alttp. And there is no question about it. Alttp is very clearly a huge step up from the NES zelda. My feelings is that botw and totk are both simultaneously a step forward and backwards for the series. I hope that zelda evolve again for the next console, in the same way that alttp evolved from the NES zelda. Linear story telling and progression based dungeon design is entirely possible in an open world zelda game.
I feel like this problem is beyond just Zelda, people will say “this movie is too old for me” or “this song is too old for me” , 4K and modern is great but narrative, character development, and memorability is timeless
I've only really got into Zelda through Breath of the Wild when the game came out, and now Tears of the Kingdom; planning on returning and playing the older games. But anyway, I play a lot of Souls, and when Elden Ring came out, I was hoping that the dungeons/castles would stay linear, so I understand what you mean. Elden Ring did it best IMO, by mixing open world and linear dungeons, so maybe after ToTK, Zelda could do something similar, combining the two elements. (I definitely need to play the older games, coz I'm addicted to Zelda lore videos lol)
It 's like racing games half of the enjoyment in a racing game is how well constructed the tracks are. In an open world racing game you sacrifice the complex track design for the open world. Same with Zelda.
I've been playing Zelda since 1993 (I actually am the Ancient Cistern... lol) and so I've seen the series change a lot. OOT is my favorite game and I feel like the games that followed were all amazing in their own way (less so SS), they feel like they got a bit tired. SS really was a breaking point in a lot of ways but the dungeons in that game are fantastic for sure. BOTW was like playing OOT for the first time in 1998. It was new and fascinating. TOTK on the other hand feels like a better version of BOTW. I kind of feel it makes BOTW obsolete and I couldn't really say that about MM to Ocarina or any of the other 3D games. However obviously the next game will have a new world to explore instead of re-using a previous games map.
To be honest, these open air games feel less like they're following OOT-SS and more so a 3D version of the original Zelda game. If Zelda 1 was made today... I think it would look very much like BOTW or TOTK. And I know part of that is intentional. And going back through the series, the people that liked the open ended world of Z1 never really had another game in that style as the series became more and more linear. WW to me feels similar in terms of the exploration but its still a very guided experience. So yeah, these new games feel very much like they've gone right back to a world before Link to the Past existed. They're basically soft reboots.
That being said, I think they're incredible. If they can give us a game on TOTK's caliber with 8ish dungeons in the next game like some of the older dungeon beefy games then I don't think I can complain. The games that followed OOT were getting very long with their intros and were too handholdy and these new games feel like they basically get right to the point a lot faster.
If they can somehow please what I think are the 3 pillars of Zelda games now (2D overhead, OOT traditional 3d Zelda, and Open Air games) then I think we'll be fine. For the main games, they're not going back. But I think they can continue to add elements of the linear games until they strike the right balance. Give us Open Air games, give us 2D games, but also make OOT-like games as well to tide us over while the main team is preparing the next big Open Air game. I think it can be done.
I think the future of the series is exciting and I hope they're brave enough to go wacky and crazy one day like they did with MM and WW again. A game like TOTK with the Great Sea or something similarly out there would be awesome.
Anyways just my thoughts. The Zelda team is the best game developer in the world and has been since ALTTP imo. I think they lost their way around TP-SS and they've recaptured what makes Zelda special again recently. My only hope is that they don't reuse world's again like they did with BOTW/TOTK. Its totally fine on this one occasion but I hope its not going to become a trend going forward. And with how long it takes to develop a game from beginning to end these days (we're being told its now around 6 years to create one of these) that they don't only give us 1 new world every 12 years. That would suck.
Exactly BOTW was unique and different however TOTK is like a refined version of BOTW. Some may say it lacks in originality however it is a better version of the game that people loved. I’m not worried about the future of Zelda Nintendo will make the next games different and what they can achieve on a Switch successor will be awesome.
I agree entirely. The BOTW formula is just going back to its open world roots. Hardware constraints made 3d more linear, once they knew they could make an open world on the wii u/switch hardware, they immediately went for it. It is interesting for sure. If they strike a balance with more traditional dungeons along side the open world, then they will be golden.
I disagree with the notion that Breath of the Wild is just a modern version of Zelda 1. It takes a lot of inspiration for sure, but Zelda 1 had required and numbered dungeons that increased in difficulty as the number increased. It also had dungeon items, several of them were necessary to complete later dungeons.
I would say that Zelda 1 has about as much in common with the traditional formula as it does with Breath of the Wild.
@@robertgamer3112 I'm not so sure. I think BOTW scratches an itch that Zelda games after the original do not. Going where you want, when you want. Yes there's progression items and gate keeping here and there but I'm talking more about the broader scope of non-linearity. Dumping you in a world and saying "ok go whichever direction you want" is a lot different to games like Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword is my point which have you following an order of events.
@@head-cha-la It scratches one itch, but misses out on others. One person could reasonably say that BotW has everything they like about Zelda 1 and another could reasonably say that it has nothing that they liked from Zelda 1. It all depends on your tastes.
I've been playing Zelda since I was a kid (OoT was my first game) and I've had more fun with BotW and TotK than I had with any of the older 3D Zelda games but I agree. I hope they find a way to mix the new and old formats together. I love the freedom and creativity in the new games but I miss some of the linear design and classic item progression of the older games. I really miss the classic dungeons, progression, and stories. I think they could even just restrict exploration a little bit/force you to do certain things in a specific order and it would allow them to create grand stories again
I absolutely loved BotW and am loving TotK but I hope the old style of Zelda isn't dead.
Considering the last 2 entries were some of the best games of all time……. I’m going to go out on a limb and say I’m not too worried.
I’ve been playing Zelda for 25 years (I’m almost 32), and the new Zeldas feel like true Zelda experiences to me. In my eyes, the new games actually play the way I FELT like the old games played. BOTW gave me the same feeling, as an adult, that OOT did when I was younger (I never thought I’d feel that magic in a game again).
When I was exploring Hyrule as a kid, it felt like this VAST, open adventure. I feel like the new games are giving us the full Zelda experience, that technical limitations prevented in the past.
Remember, Miyamoto created Zelda to capture the feeling of going on adventures in the wilderness and exploring caves he experienced as a child.