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Kreia's Conundrums - Apathy
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- Опубліковано 19 лип 2018
- They say that Apathy is death. That scene is one of the most quoted Kreia scenes in the entire game. There's only one problem with it. I explain why this one, often overlooked issue, changes everything.
Kreia's Conundrums - A Star Wars Explained Series Focusing on Kreia and Knights of the Old Republic.
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I agree the tomb itself is a hallucination and not Kreia herself although the problem is that noticing this fact tends to dismiss it as something Kreia would not say or believe. How are we to know? I take the words as truthful of what Kreia believes. She values caution but not apathy. When you reach the beggar scene on Narshadaa, either option, light or dark, is given scorn by Kreia, so you would be right to assume that she advocates apathy. But Kreia does not believe that. She tells you to look at everything as a whole and only then commit. The emphasis is caution, not apathy. Another point is that apathy is the side of the Grey Jedi (one of the core points in my Grey Jedi video). Jolee Bindo was on the wookie planet and saw the inner turmoil. He saw the wookies being enslaved by Czerka. He could have freed the wookies or ruled as their king. You can even ask him directly but he dodges the question. You can even call him a coward. Zez-Kei-ell is the same, intentionally, he spent years on Narshadaa, saw life at its rawest, and yet did nothing. As Kreia criticizes all the Jedi Masters, she says to Zez-Kei-Ell 'and Zez-Kei-ell, to hide upon Narshadaa yet blind yourself to all that happens there.' The central criticism is that he is surrounded by life but acted apathetic. Another point of interest is Kreia's alignment. While throughout most of the game she is seen with a neutral alignment, after the confrontation on Dantooine she turns slightly red. If you use Force Sight upon confronting her on Malachor, she is still slightly red. So while she is not pure red as the other Sith Lords, she took a side, even if slightly. Because of this, I believe that Kreia does believe that apathy is death.
. I think the beggar scene was placed the way it was because the developers of the game wanted to use it as a moment of insight into Kreia's beliefs. That's why they didn't give you a third option of, for example, making the man work for the money somehow.
You're right that Jolee could have done something the the slavery. Although maybe he couldn't. Taking on an entire corporation, even just a small branch of it as a lone Jedi could prove difficult. There was also the current leader of the Wookies to worry about. He wasn't exactly anti-slavery. I'm not sure if I would clacify Jolee as being apathetic since he did leave Kashyyyk with Revan. Later on he tells Carth that even though peace never lasts, you don't just roll over and let it crumble. But Zez-Kai Ell? He's a different story.
I could say that Kreia chose a 'side' in the end, in terms of force alignment. But the side she chose was still her side. She consciously turned to the dark side because that's what she had to do in order to ensure that the exile goes to Malachor. A light side exile would go after her to stop her. A dark side exile would go after her after she realizes that Kreia's just been using her the entire time. A grey exile who might not care, will go after her because of the force bond. Either way Kreia was getting what she wanted. Her plan was pretty genius.
The thing about the third option with the beggar is that there used to be a line in the game where the beggar says he's sorry for asking money, so it's likely that the scene would have allowed the player the option to be apathetic. But I think most players would have picked that option and missed Kreia's lesson, so they removed the choice entirely.
As for Jolee, people often bring up the fact that he wasn't 'completely' apathetic since he joined Revan but that was only because destiny itself came knocking at his door. It still doesn't excuse the fact that he let wookies be enslaved. At times he gave them refuge or gave them food but he still overall did nothing. Either as a Jedi (by helping them) or as a Sith (enslaving them and being king), he did nothing. That is why I think Zez-Kei-Ell is a direct criticism of Jolee and the Grey Jedi. Just as Jolee did nothing on the wookie planet, Zez-Kei-Ell did nothing on Narshadaa. He could have freed the refugees or used his strength to live as a king. Instead he did nothing until you show up.
But regardless, I still do think that although the tomb on Korriban might be a hallucination and not Kreia herself, her criticisms of Zez-Kei-Ell are anti-apathetic. Just as Jolee, after the Jedi had failed her, she could have lived as an exile but instead she chose to believe in herself and the Sith. She never gave up. She kept seeking the answers even after the Sith failed her by desiring power over true independence.
I think this is an argument about meanings of words, rather than anything else. If you equate doing nothing with apathy, then yes, doing nothing in the tomb (and everywhere else) is apathetic. But I think doing nothing doesn't always and necessarily equate to apathy. If you could choose between killing yourself and killing your best friend and also had the choice to do nothing, would doing nothing be apathetic? Doesn't seem like it would be, at all.
Also, I'd say that, for instance, Jolee's error here isn't doing nothing or apathy. It's hypocrisy. Iirc (might be wrong, tho) he still thinks of himself as a Jedi. This goes even more so for Zez. And Jedi are supposed to help others, which they avoid doing, while trying to at the same time think of themselves as Jedi/altruistic. They could also choose to abuse the shit out of their situation for personal gain (a.k.a. the Sith way).
But what if you aren't a psycho that would do _anything_ (like hurting your close ones) for purely your own gain or wanted to save everyone to the point of hurting yourself for the sake of others? What if you just wanted to help yourself and your friends and family while trying to do as little damage to everyone else? If you picked that, and said you wanted to do that and nothing more, nothing less, I think that would be Gray and not hypocritical, without being apathetic (cause you care about yourself and your close ones strongly). Doing nothing in the grand scheme of things would then make perfect sense. You're protecting what you _do strongly_ care about by not involving yourself in things that you don't care about. See: The Witcher games/books.
At the first dialogue screen there's an option to tell him that you have nothing for him. He apologizes but then insists. Whether or not there used to be a third option after that, I'm glad they removed it if there was.
I think you're on to something about Zez-Kai Ell being a critque on Jolee Bindo. Kind of like how HK-47 in KOTOR 2 seems to be criticizing the overall writing of KOTOR 1 at times. Although, Chris Avellone did reply to tweet of mine saying that he has nothing but respect for Drew Karpyshyn. Although Jolee wasn't the type to play King or Hero, not at that point at least. If he was truly apathetic, he could have encountered Revan, even if it destiny knocking, and ignored it. Telling Revan to go about his mary way. As a balanced individual he has that power. Maybe he should have done something about the wookies, more than just helping them out in the shadowlands, but he wanted to be left alone. Going on a crusade against a galactic corporation would attract too much attention. Maybe that makes him apathetic. Maybe. Yuthura Ban really wanted to free slaves, but that didn't turn out so well.
Apathy certainly isn't a good thing. It's just remarkable that the tomb would use that as a means to influence you. i don't think the tomb really lies. I think it takes an aspect of something and twists it. I found some other fascinating things about the tomb that I'm gonna discuss in a later video. This particular tomb is highly unusual to me.
Nenad I think both Jolee and Zez-Kai Ell considered themselves to not be Jedi. But in certain ways they still acted like Jedi and believed in certain Jedi teachings. So in that sense, they were Jedi, but they just called themselves none-Jedi.
The Witchers were more neutral by necessity weren't they? Even so it didn't always do the trick, since angry mobs would attack them anyway. But still it was in their interest to be neutral. They needed work, and can't be too picky about who they kill monsters for.
Kreia is one of the most well written characters i've ever had the grace of meeting in gaming and im glad for it. she taught me more things than my parents ever did.
I mean, take what Kreia says with a grain of salt, eh? She's not a very nice person.
Kreia is the most inspiring Character in Star Wars for me and after playing this game my character and thoughts changed too.
I'm genuinely amazed at how much KOTOR 2 does to get the player thinking if they take the time to really dig into it. There's a lot of substance that I could never have appreciated when I first played it as a child. Now, though, I see it has more depth than the first game and appreciate it for that, even if the first holds a closer place in my heart with its own brand of storytelling.
Wait, you allowed a video game character to influence your beliefs, or am I misunderstanding.
@@RomanusVII Fiction is fiction. Fiction relates to intangible stories and reality, yet holds it's truth through the reflection of what our reality is. The denial of the validity due to its medium is the core of ignorance.
Learning is learning after all.
I was too young when I played Kotor 2 to leave a philosophical impact on me.
For me the game that left a philosophical impact on me was The Witcher 1.
@@RomanusVII people do it all the time with religion, changing their own character through fictional characters and storytelling. The difference here is he consciously changed hisvown character because of the logic and reasoning behind the character, not indoctrination and fear of punishment.
I chose to do nothing on my first playthrough and learned something about myself when pressure was applied to me. When it's time to make a decision and choose a side, I chose to sit back and watch it unfold out of fear. This is the exact mistake the council made with the war, in this instance I was no better than the Jedi Order the game and I criticized. I quickly realized this in reflection after Kreia suggested I might learn something once the trial concluded. This game is pretty incredible if I can completely see, respect, and understand your view on this segment that contradicts mine while still holding my own. I've scarce seen a game make me feel and think this way.
"Never doubt what you have done." - Kreia.
"Don't second guess yourself." - Papito Qinn.
"Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs." - Qui-Gon Jinn.
Wise words. From wise people.
Thanks, man. It's a lesson I learned from experience.
Also self contradicting words, as she says never doubt, then constantly tries to worm words of doubt into your head to make you doubt literally every single action you can take.
@@lenkagamine4145 that seems like more of a test of whether or not you would doubt yourself, if you can still be sure of your decision when she's telling you its the incorrect one then you've done what she wanted
"Nothing worthwhile is ever easy, remember that." -Darth Baras
I wouldn't mind seeing a video about how Kreia used practically every single character in the entire game to set up this whole elaborate thing which one could describe as a meticulous pop quiz
I brushed up on the Wiki entry for Ludo Kressh, and the fact that he was the 'do nothing' Lord of the Sith, content to consolidate the empire's existing holdings whereas Naga Sadow wanted to expand and invade, makes this part even more remarkable.
Ludo Kressh feared that if the Republic were to discover the Sith Empire, they would commit genocide against the Sith species. He also believed that the Sith Empire couldn’t win a war against the Republic. Both beliefs proved to be correct.
She literally says "This is a dispute between Atton and myself"
and then follows up after you say "ok, i won't get involved" with a "Apathy is death"
Even though the game wasn't 100% finished when released, KOTOR 2 is more superior over the first game, even though I do love it. KOTOR 2 is perhaps one of the best stories in the entire Star Wars mythos.
One of the best written RPG's i've ever played. It's a work of art that continues to shine despite it being rushed for a quick buck. Hats off to the restoration folks.
dend1 I especially love the ESB dark feeling it has. Also the party members like Atton, Mira, Visas, and the Handmaiden.
When it came out I was a little disappointed by the unfinished feel but I really liked it. I recently re-bought the game on Steam and downloaded that lost content mod, replaying it with that was mind blowing. Vanilla KOTOR II: B, KOTOR: A, KOTOR II with lost content restoration mod: A+
@@fluffybunny937 It's the Obsidian curse. Payed to make a sequel, only to get it rushed out by the publisher, but it still ends up being the best game in the series'.
Not really, only real saving grace of this game is its characters, pretty much on every other point its worse than the first one.
...Or, as Neil Peart once said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
The fact that still to this day we discuss and analyse Kreia out of genuine love and respect is the best evidence that Star Wars fans don't dislike Disney's take on the franchise because they hate women. She is definitely my favorite Star Wars character, and also my favorite female video game character. She is 90% of the reason why I love the 2nd KoTOR game more than the 1st one.
Of course, we just dislike a crappy story! I don't want to sound like all those nostalgic guys but the old RPGs, not just Star Wars, are so focused on a good/clever plot and a more complex message.
Oh I’m sure that this video is representative of all Star Wars fans
Such a ridicolous claim hardly deserve an answer
An important line is "To do nothing is also a choice." The Exile's "do nothing" responses are very blase; one has the Exile call out the visions as false, but dismisses it as meaningless, as if there is nothing to gain from paying attention to it. Even if one is a hardcore lightsider and the only thing they would gain is insight into how the dark side would trick them, there is still something to gain. This outright dismissal is even more ignorant than it seems because this is a setting where the supernatural provably exists; the Exile should know better than to assume a Force-induced vision, dark side or otherwise, would carry zero meaning. The fact that there's even a second "do nothing" option at all is interesting, because how many ways are there to do nothing? Except, it's more blatantly apathetic, "I'll just stand back and watch," suggesting a less scrupulous reason for doing nothing, as if the Exile is still recognizing the falsehood of what they see but is just entertained by the show of conflict. With both, the Exile has made a choice to do nothing but in a way that does not encourage growth or understanding. I'd be very interested to hear Disapproving Hallucinatory Kreia's response (and the real Kreia's response, for that matter,) if the Exile could say "I don't care what this vision is trying to tell me, I'll decide for myself who I want to be and how I want to see the people around me."
Thus, it isn't the apathy you can show to both sides that's the problem, it's the apathy you don't realize you have to the consequences of your choice, because you didn't even realize you were making a choice. Would Kreia, of *all people,* criticize someone for deciding to take no sides, *if* they had thoroughly examined those sides and found them both unsatisfactory, as opposed to taking no sides because picking one is too hard? "Apathy is death, *worse* than death" may or may not be something Kreia would say, but the vision still nails her character.
One of the reasons KotOR2 is so great is that so many seemingly innocuous lines can mean so much more than they appear. There are still players today who remember Kreia saying "There must always be a Darth Traya" and think it's referencing some sort of abandoned subplot where "Darth Traya" is some sort of old legacy Sith title, unexplored when KotOR3 never happened, especially in light of the cut ending where Atris could've taken on the title. Everyone forgets the *rest* of the line, as well as the second time she says it: "There must always be a Darth Traya; *one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn...the galaxy needs it's betrayers.*"
Apathy is Death. One of the most important reflections I had in the game. Life (in the game Force) will continue to test you, confront you and go on with or without your hand. Choosing is our tool to make our shift in the reality, to make our imprint, this is what life is all about. Make the best you can to follow your true heart
I think that the tomb being a strong nexus in the Force, it reads the people inside of it feeding off the memory that person has, that said I feel that maybe just maybe, that the Kreia in the tomb is a mental projection of the Kreia in the mind of the Exile, whom is still Grey(balanced) due to her Dark Robes but she wields a blue lightsaber. Technically she is only defending herself as Atton shows up. I think the reason she calls people by the names is because that is what The Exile calls them. Idk but maybe it’s a factor.
This was my thoughts on it as well. The idea that apathy is akin to death may be one that the exile believes Kreia would believe based on their interactions, and so the tomb uses this in its projection of Kreia.
This video made tear up for some reason. Well done.
Wow. That's quite something. Thank you.
What a great character and an AMAZING game.
I agree, great character, great game. What did you think of the video?
I have been reading Nietzsche, and I do not understand everything he said. This helps clarify a few points. Thank you.
What books? I would like to read them too
@Zol z a hero without a cape, thanks for this recommendation.
@@sergioruiz733 "Will to Power" was drawn up from Nietzsche's notes and was turned in to a manuscript by his sister after his death. His sister was a German nationalists and believed in aryan purity, and he did not think highly of her, a fact that she conveniently swept under the rug. So if you read it take it with a grain of salt, too many neckbeards have been "red-pilled" by a will to power not realizing it was released as propaganda.
@@seawind930 Yeah i was warned ahead of time im just curious what i can see from the work.
@@sergioruiz733 That's good, too often people will judge an author after reading only reading one or two of their works and that is what people often do with Nietzsche, or they just cherrypick parts without really knowing anything about him.
kreia is my favorite teacher. she is so wise. Disney will never be Able to do the same
Jordan S never...
But there’s Rose lol
George Lucas never could either
Lol no, Chris Avellone wrote Kotor 2, George Lucas had nothing to do with it.
+Jarred Grayson it's all his makeing. the dialogue and shit maby. but lucas always has final say and over saw all of his games. that's so ass backwards duse
Special thanks to TheAlgea (on Twitter) / nenad8 (on Reddit) for sharing Kreia's Conundrums - Charity on Reddit. I think the boost in viewers and subs that I got recently is thanks to you doing that.
Great video. After first playing this game, I've written an essay about the philosophical background of it, but replaying it again and again always shows me, that the story and the characters are much deeper both in this, and the first game, than what can be seen after one play. Kreia is written amazingly.
The Writer Chris Avellone is probably the best writer the video game industry has. Do you still have the essay?
I agree. I have it, but it's in hungarian (my mother language). I'm planning on remaking it in english though, since the hungarian KOTOR fandom is awfully little - if you wish, I can send you the remade version.
I would like to see it. Send it to me when you remake it. English isn't my native language either. I'm probably better at english though.
Always nice to hear some views on Kreia's philosophy. Even if this is technically not about Kreia, since it's just a Dark Side vision that started the topic.
This totally changed my perspective of that scene. Thank you for uploading so much KOTOR 2 content
The Korriban tomb doesn't really matter in terms of game play it does not advance plot etc. But...it is an interesting story tidbit. Its basis is similar to Luke Skywalker's trial in the cave on Degobah where he fights Vader decapitates him and finds out to his horror that Vader is himself. The whole Korriban tomb is a similar thing for the Exile and Kreia is mentally linked to the Exile. She tells you to run when Sion fights you on Korriban. You see her image on Korriban even though she's on the ship. Although that's probably a game glitch similar to the one where orginally Bastila was able to join you on Korriban. Anyway that mental link is still there and Kreia mentally contacts you to guide you out of the tomb after fighting a mock version of Revan and a mirror image of the Exile (your PC) if you play the Restored content mod. I think it's the bond and mental link that congers up Kreia because the whole Apathy is death thing is part of her philosophy. It also highlights and foreshadows the Exile's past and future. She did something...she went off to war with Revan after the Jedi told the Revanchists not to. It also highlights the end of the game as the Exile tells the Masters they need to stand up against the Sith and they say they will do as they have done before. Nothing and they will wait. The choice of verbage from the Exile is almost to the effect of saying: Crap, not this again. This is the same damn thing you did during the Mandalorian wars.
In another twist of this whole Apathy thing one need only look at the deleated scene with Rey and Luke on Ach-toh with the caretaker "raiding party". Luke tells Rey, do you know what a Jedi would do? Absolutely nothing. Rey has none of that and goes off anyway believing a threat needs to be gone against not doing anything at all. It seems that this whole doing nothing thing has come into play with the Jedi before, several times.
one thing I need to point out is that kreia's centering is based on a real-world technique used to calm anxiety. When Kreia mentions she can't center herself on Korriban it's not that the Darkside would draw her in thus ruining her alignment. Mostly because if you've played the game you know she's a sith. It's because she's too anxious to be of any help. Korriban for her is like going to the scene of an accident for someone who's been in a car crash. Alignment isn't bassed on what characters believe or their mind set but their actions. After all, you don't gain dark side points for mousing over dark side options but end up choosing the light side option. It's only the choice that you act on that determines your alignment.
Holy cow! First of your videos I've watched, and I'm blown away. This is deep, high quality, Star Wars content.
Thank you very much for the kind words. I hope you enjoy the rest in the playlist as well. I also hope you subscribe, I'm releasing a new one today.
Kreia's illusion in the tomb is kind of contradictory. She picks a fight with Atton's illusion, and when Bao-Dur's illusion comes along to interfere she asks him to stay out of it, so...isn't she asking him to be apathetic? Why is it that staying neutral is right for him, and wrong for the Exile? Just because she was the one being tested? Come on...
Beautifully made, thank you for this!
Actually, if you are playing light-side, the tomb's illusions can't kill you. Only the beasts in the tomb can do that. However, if you are playing dark side, you can die within the tomb.
Yeah I discovered that throughout making the video. I was gonna make a video on that. It's pretty fascinating. This Tomb is more interested in conversion.
Personally, I think that it's a bug, because I've tried going through it and it seems random as to when you die and when you don't. Also, I've tried with cheats enabled and you have to be lightside before you go into the cave to get relative immunity (relative meaning that you don't die from the illusions), and if you go in as dark side, you won't get that immunity.
Anyways, please do make a video on it. This was a great video itself. Also, I love the music.
I don't know if it's the restored content mod, but when I 'failed' the scenarios and didn't die, the dialogue window popped up with the Exile trying to speak to Kreia. So it's a thing.
Yeah, it pops up the first time, but then afterward it doesn't pop up until you get defeated by Revan/dark exile.
in other words, to sum up his video... what he is saying is. "there is a difference between doing nothing, and not caring." just because you do nothing, doesn't mean you don't care. apathy simply means that you do nothing, because you don't care at all.
I just wanted to comment that having just watched Tales of the Jedi, this video seems so relevant right now. The way you said that the dark side doesn't have to affect you immediately but it can effect how you make future decisions. That seems to be exactly the story of count dooku he e the plight of the villagers and it the anger moved him. Their words moved him. Later while spreading with sidious he mentions that dooku told him that the Jedi are just pawns of the Senate. Those were the words the villagers said to him long ago. It just hit me heading you talk about that how his actions mirrored your words here. This is truly a great video thank you for making this
Wow man, thank you very much. I actually did make a video on Tales of the Jedi. Although what you said makes sense. I may have to rethink a few things. Or I should have at least mentioned this video.
Her or not, not caring about my well being has caused me a lot of harm... Choosing to do nothing can be considered caring about it. Sometimes doing nothing is better or you can only cause more problems, at the same time you will never know how you could have harmed or improved that.
I think this coincides with her lesson on Nar Shadda. Should you choose to do something, make sure you know what the far reaching consequences of that action may be
this is a great video. it's a good view on one of my favorite parts of the game
Loved your examination of this scene. When I played it I chose the options that lead to the apathy is death lines and it seemed slightly off to me. I didn't understand why until much later. Great analysis :)
Thank you! I elaborate on it even further in Kreia's Conundrums - The Tomb of Luddo Kressh part 3.
@@PapitoQinn I just got done watching the whole series. Definitely a well structured and researched series! For what its worth, you have this one strangers respect and gratitude for doing the subject so much justice :)
@@WaffleRaven Thank you very much. I'm working on more.
Ghost horror films were quite popular when the Old Republic games came out. I think the Sith Trimuvante and Meetra Surik were apparitions of the Celestials.I don't think the Celestials were related, but Father feared the result (loss of power) if Brother and Sister were to marry and have children. I believe they had a child (Revan) in secret, and he killed all of them because of it. He builds Mortis (short for mortuary), keeping Brother and Sister's force ghosts in a planetary container, that emits and influences force life.... Sister freaked out when Anakin touched her. I think Kreia was somehow Mother and Darth Traya was Abeloth, and Meetra was Daughter. Mother use to have Brother move and crush rock to help rebuild their home to channel his anger, which suggests that Sion is the apparition of Brother, given he looks like crushed stone, plus his feelings about Meetra and his desire to heal others. I am not sure about Nihilus and Visas, but I believe that Father somehow continued to keep them alive in the same fashion that Nihilus kept himself alive, and fed them with Jedi and Sith souls which were their creations. They remained alive by corrupting and feeding on their own kids' (dead Jedi and Sith) souls. Notice how the Jedi Library did a lot of covering up on the Old Republic history? Why wasn't Revan and the Revanchists considered a schism? Perhaps the Jedi and Sith were their mind walkers.
This is certainly a unique theory. It's something for me to think about. But I'm giving this comment a 'heart' because I think other viewers should be encouraged to discuss this.
Papito Qinn. Thank you. 😸
thats some dumb as fan fiction.
jussy dsasd I was hoping for discussion, involving constructive criticism maybe. Not insults.
from your point of view i can see how you think that.
After watching the Woolie VS playthrough, I interpreted the "apathy is death' line to be synonymous with the inaction of the jedi council. They failed to act, and they were destroyed for it
With that thought being in the back of the Exile's mind, it just makes the tomb even more brilliant. The tomb isn't lying. It's taking something you already think is true and taking it to an extreme. You should watch my follow up to this. Kreia's Conundrums - The tomb of Ludo Kressh Part 3. I go even deeper into it.
A classic example of yes and rather than either or
A "Beam me up, Scotty/Luke, I am your father" moment if I ever knew one. Always associated with one character, when in reality, they actually never even ever said it at all.
I also prefer to believe that "Willing Inaction" is better then rash action, the fundamental nature of wisdom is having foresight before taking action, which arguably should be balanced by intelligence which represents overall knowledge and ability to comprehend certain details. And only then one should take action with full confidence.
I mostly agree. Although I believe that intelligence and knowledge are separate. Knowledge is information, while intelligence is more problem solving, deduction skills, and understand complex information. Wisdom though, is rather beautiful in it's simple and complex nature. It can be many things. It can come to you naturally like with intelligence, but it can also be gained, like knowledge.
True, but im referring to the "situation" in which one can be Wise but dumb as a brick, often times the words themselves have relevance and make sense but may not necessarily be helpfull in specific problems. For instance one wise might tell you dabbling in forbidden technology and arts is a bad thing and can lead to terrible things, wich can be true, but intelligence is what can prevent the negative from happening. So its best if one can be as wise and smart as possible to make decisions.
Sort of related and I don't have any real point to saying this, but it helps to remember that "willing inaction" and "rash action" were both two sides of the Jedi Civil War that caused so much trouble.
I guess on that note, it goes without saying that both can be equally harmful. The Jedi masters refused to take action (inaction) during the Mandalorian Wars and the pupils flocked to Revan and Malak as a result (rash action). Had the Jedi put forth any effort, maybe it could have been prevented. Then again, there were some more "voodoo space magic" things to take into account. I think Revan, due to his power and his corruption, was able to influence other Jedi and corrupt them. Maybe with the Star Forge, I don't recall.
So maybe it couldn't have been stopped at all.
Lucifronz But Revan wasn't corrupted by anything at that point. The only time you could consider what happened to him to be corruption is when the sith emperor did whatever he did to him. But he broke away even from that. Simply going to war to fight what you believe should be protected doesn't automatically make you 'corrupted'. That's something Atris would say. What have you been corrupted by? The willingness to fight for what you believe in? I'm not sure if I can call the Jedi apathetic since they claimed that they were planning something. But it was taking too long. No matter what their plan ended up being it would have been far too difficult to implement when the mandalorians had already won. Unless their plan was to run and hide.
Felix Dumbravescu No disrespect, but this sounds like an convenient excuse for not haveing the courage to take action even when the outcome is uncertain. In my life I regret more the times where I never tried than when I took action but made a mistake.
A lot of good points in this video!
This seems actually really plausible especially because of the subtly meta nature of Kreia's philosophy that drives you to turn away from both the dark AND the light. So by doing nothing, you are, in fact creating a kind of echo perhaps? One that has infuriated the dark side presence within the tomb maybe? Thus why it lashes out at the exile.
There's a certain irony that you make a video analyzing this and her quote, and in the comments there are so many people saying "BRUH SHE'S SO WISE" when that's not really... the point of the vid.
The last minute you mentioned - something I’m struggling with. I’m 29 and nervous of turning 30, meaning a phase of my youth will die. I’m regretting that I spent most of my 20’s WASTING THEM. Instead of learning game/seduction, entrepreneurial spirit, and other skills… I wasted them being bitter and isolated after getting hit by a trauma that kept repeating itself that I started to wonder what was the GODDAMN point. I didn’t give a shit if I watched people rip each other apart like I was or if I disposed of them like I was… in fact sometimes I took joy in playing a role in it. It took being 27 and moving out of the town where all my drama and trauma came from into a town I can call my real home to realize I’m done living average or bitter like everyone else is lately.
But yeah I’m struggling especially with the last 10 seconds - acknowledging mistakes were made, letting the past go so I can carve out a brighter future…
I'm 33 now. I spent my 20s in a way that most people would say I "wasted" them as well. I wish I had started my UA-cam channel earlier for example. But one great thing I learned from Kreia is that regret is a waste of time and just holds you back from doing it now. It's a shame we didn't do X back then. But there's nothing that can be done about it, so worrying about it is, at best, worthless.
Good choice of music. Thought I recognised it and reading the description I found out I was right.
Jon Everist, man. Many might not see him as one of greats yet. But he's getting there.
The book of revelations and Martin Luther King Jr. Speak on Apathy as a greater problem than evil: "It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation. Not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people who sit around and say, "Wait on time.”" Kreia's philosophy stresses adds to this by effectively saying "as well as those who waste their energy on petty causes rather than the true battles."
my mother tongue is not english, however this scene taught me the meaning of apathy as a child
Lore of Kreia's Conundrums - Apathy Momentum 100
I always respected KOTOR 2 as a decent sequel to the original, but damn I didn't think some sequel RPG for the old Xbox would be looked into so much.
King Bumi said that Neutral Jing, the choosing of doing nothing is listening and waiting for the right moment to strike.
As Bumi describes it in Avatar, Neutral Jing, or patience and planning is different than doing nothing. Kreia waits much of the game before she enacts his final plan. What Kreia suggests is that doing nothing, or rather neglecting the issue or to put it off is the problem. Do not confuse procrastination with planning, for your dreams will never come to pass
I believe your analysis to be interesting, but flawed. "Apathy is Death" line does not come from the real Kreia, but it is largely consistent with what Kreia believes. More importantly, it is perfectly consistent with the themes and messages of the story itself.
The Exile is a character defined first and foremost by their willingness to act. They became who they were meant to become by following Revan into the war, a choice that you have a chance to express regret for, but the game encourages you to embrace instead. Whether you were right or wrong, whether your actions had more positive consequences or more negative ones, you still did something. The Jedi Masters, who choose to remain idle for most of the story and backstory alike, are mercilessly chewed out for being cowards who ultimately failed to help anyone through their lack of action. By choosing inaction in the scenario presented, you are becoming more alike to them... as well as being pretty stupid. You argue that because the scene in the tomb is a hallucination, abstaining from taking a side in the conflict might logically be the best choice. But it's not. It results in everyone ganging up on you and quite possibly overwhelming you, leaving you weaker and with a whole lot new dark side points on your meter. If you want to gain some light side points instead, you should side with Krei instead. If you want to move closer towards the dark, you are probably better off ganging up on Kreia so that you can gather points with less risk to yourself. And if you choose to play along, then not choosing a side is a dumbass move because whichever side you prefer will take more casualties than had you chose to support it. Either way, inaction is not your best choice.
There is wisdom in not acting recklessly, in holding off for a better solution or in not helping someone so you may commit to a greater good later on. But if you have any preference to how the things should look like, if you have any care in the world, you will have to act eventually. Stepping back and watching your companions murder one another can only be caused by apathy, and apathy is... you know the drill. It doesn't seem like some manipulation of the Dark Side, and if it is, then I have to back the Dark Side on this one. If you are so useless you refuse to make a choice even when it's the worst option available, you might as well just lie down and die.
This might be a comment on the Mandalorian Wars. The Council chose to do nothing - while Revan and others saw this choice as apathy.
This is wonderful. Liked, commented and Subbed.
This is obvious... Of course it's not Kreia. Apathy is perhaps the best chance to harm the force. To destroy it as Kreia desires.
Exelent video as always
Can't believe you don't have more subs.
It might be the voice.
A blue saber and Darth Treya just fits so right
I wonder why the visions lightsaber is blue? not red for dark-side, or purple for someone in the middle, but blue of the jedi guardian
Totally agree with everything u said dude.
Shame we get shit from disney now instead of this deep star wars.
But maybe its for the better, they should film it when they or someone else are capable to even mention Revan, let alone film something related to him.
Thanks, man. Disney is totally capable of making something more ambitious. They just have to make the choice to do it.
Damn fine vid
Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed the other ones too.
The Sith believe that, if you donot act, you waste your potential. You waste the strength, the power that you have.
It is far more 'Jedi' to "be apathetic", to simply let things take their course, and intervene only when things are sailing towards death and destruction.
When the Mandalorians rose up, the Jedi Council chose apathy. To think instead of to act. That is why Kreia despises them. Even though Revan's intentions were good, he still chose to act, instead of awaiting the right moment. He acted because he was afraid. He feared the unknown. That is why the Mandalorians provoked the young, vulnerable Jedi and started the Mandalorian Wars.
Why do you think that Revan was afraid of the unknown, but went to war with the mandalorians, an enemy he's never fought before? After that he also went into the 'unknown' regions to face an enigmatic sith emperor. The mandalorians wanted to fight the republic, not the Jedi. Canderous Ordo even says that they didn't think much of the Jedi. They didn't think that people who were so compassionate could be great warriors. The Jedi said that there was something behind the war and they were right. But they also couldn't do nothing, yet they did anyway. If there was a right moment than it came and went. Despite Revan's abilities, they still barely won the war. I don't know what the Jedi were planning, but if they had kept meditating for months or years, there wouldn't have been any republic left to save. Thinking things through doesn't make you apathetic, but you really must be able to recognize the moments where you must act.
@@PapitoQinn Arguably, the Old Republic needed to fall. "It is a stagnant beast, laboring for breath for millenia" (don't remember the exact quote off-hand). Even after KOTOR1's light side ending, G0-T0 says that the Republic will collapse in a month because it lacks the infrastructure to sustain itself. With enough influence, he will tell you that the flaws of the Republic itself is its massive bureaucracy that legally cannot do the job of rebuilding the Republic.
Perhaps the Jedi needed the Republic to fall so that they could find the true Sith threat or the Yuvzhan Vong. Revan acted too soon, in their opinion, and by protecting the Republic during the Mandalorian wars, merely delayed the inevitable.
The Jedi were definitely outmanuevered, in any case.
@@dragonknightleader1 Making the Mandalorian go to war with the republic was a stroke of genius. I believe the sith were preying upon this aspect of the Jedi. They would stay out of the war, because they would feel that something is behind it. The republic is weakened, public opinion of the jedi will fall, and if some jedi go to war, they will be weakened as a whole. In a way it's like why G0-T0 defected from the republic. It calculated it a mathematical certainty that trying to save the republic while simultaneously following it's laws is impossible. But G0-T0, a machine was able to change and reevaluate. The Jedi on the other hand are quite conservative. They're inability to change is the weakness that was exploited.
Nice. A bit random but what do you think of her quote of "It is such a quite thing to fall, but far more terrible is to admit it"? I haven't really understood the point in this tbh. She says it to Atris when she sort of reveals what Atris has actually become when she had fallen to the dark side.
Not only was she wrong, not only was hypocritical, not only did she keep defending herself and lying to every, including herself about what she is. She had to admit that she is exactly what she hates.
Oh I see, thanks. She no longer fights the dark side even in her own twisted way.
The line is certainly confusing (and that explanation given a bit vague) and I'm not sure what the precise meaning of her words are, but I believe her statement was that Atris' fall to the dark side was easy and subtle. It went unnoticed by everyone, even herself, whereas admitting to herself and to others what she had become was the more difficult and horrifying prospect.
Kind of fits in line with the whole notion that the corrupting influence of the dark side can be... well, not to get redundant, but... *subtle.*
Bit of a brain-teaser, I think. Hard to decipher exactly what is being said, at least for me.
Not sure if it was a bug or intended by design, but whenever I've gone through the tomb and picked the LS choice, Kreia's Illusion doesn't disappear and I'm able to replay the moment roughly 3 times. It's almost as if the tomb is saying "that's not the choice you were supposed to pick, try again." What reinforced this idea is that when I choose the DS option, the illusions stay gone after the first time.
I've never had this happen to me. Weird.
Im just enjoying the max payne caliber music in the back
Very nice and informative video!
Thank you. I'm working on something now that's a bit bigger than I usually make. Not entirely related the KOTOR, however.
Cool.
Don't you mean "first"? ;)
Papito Qinn No.
I wondered if the meaning of this scene didn't go further than that. I first think that the illusion of Kreia is still a correct representation of her beliefs. I think that the word "apathy" in the sense that Kreia uses it here is not do merely mean "do nothing intentionally", but rather that to her, doing nothing for whatever reason is still useless. While she does scorn you for both choices in the charity scene, that doesn't mean that she doesn't think you should pick a side, but rather that you must do your best to make the best decision possible with the information available to you. I think she would still scorn someone like Jolee Bindo, no matter how principled his hermitage may be, just for taking himself out of the action.
To Kreia, yes, I would bet that she wouldn't have a particularly high opinion of Jolee. Although I wonder if she would prefer him to be a hermit than to be a Jedi. If the Jedi cause more harm than good in the long run, maybe it's best if not be a part of it. Although she could also say that he could have stayed with the order and attempted to change it from within to a more balanced state like him. I wonder if they knew each other.
I doubt Kreia would say such a thing as "the Jedi cause more harm than good". The Jedi to her are merely another ideology; some Jedi reinforce that ideology for themselves, and others follow it blindly. Some can transcend the limits of it and do great things, some can be like Atris and not acknowledge their limitations and do great harm. She displays some level of respect for Mical. I hypothesize that it's not merely because he recognized the limitations of the Jedi during the war, but that he clung to his beliefs in the face of them, displaying true belief. He had internalized the ideology and then sought answers to the questions that it would not answer without abandoning it.
The idea is that the Jedi can put out fires, but their extreme light side nature gives the force the ability to level things out in its way with extreme dark. The sith lords wouldn't exist if not for the Jedi and their ideology after all, and look at all the destruction they ended up causing. Her respect for Mical was because he went beyond using the force. He's a good detective, and his deductive skills stem from who he is, not the force.
No. She would just have hard time hiding her "darksideness". She did not want you to see that.
Where’s the music in this video from? (First half of the video music) It really is incredible and ties the whole thing together.
Kreia 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
My only question is, how did you make this look good high res?
Oh well, if you have the game on steam it auto-patches it for resolutions up to 4K and 5K. But I record in 1080P. The final step is adding a sharpening effect when I'm editing the videos.
I was never too good nor too bad to be able to enter the thomb...
Perfectly balanced, as things should be.
What would be the end result if you tried to play through the entire game making choices that were in keeping with Kreia’s teachings as often as possible?
In terms of endings and light / dark side points? Not sure. But ultimately Kreia's would dictate that whatever you chose to do would be following her teachings. She wants for you to think for yourself and to make your choices without regret.
Better than the last jedi
Where was Kreia when she appeared to you when you were fighting Sion in the academy? It looked like she was in the academy. I know she has the ability to mask herself as she hinted at being inside the council room when you are exiled.
She was on the ship. The reason it looks like she was in the academy is because the developers did indeed place her there so she can speak to you. The game engine wasn't about to allow two different areas be loaded at the same time.
Ummm... are you *SURE* it was Ludo Kresh tomb?
Because if I remember, that was Freedon Nadd's Tomb, the only one without actual Sith Lord buried there because hes real tomb was located on Duxn.
I'm very sure. I was on Koribban, I found Ludo Kressh' body in a sarcophagus at the end and equipment that belonged to him. But I can double check if you want.
Freedon Nadd is on Dxun. Ludo Kreesh is the only one who's not Ajunta Pall, Naga Sadow, Marko Ragnos, or Tulak Hord.
would anyone watch a twitch stream of this game? i’d love to do one
Does that mean that the Jedi Council's choice to not join the Mandalorian wars was valid?
No, because them doing nothing would have resulted in the destruction of the republic and most likely of them as well, and that would not have been a positive outcome.
So if Korriban is a planet full if dark side energy... Which planet has "light side" energy?
They seem to be awfully rare. The best I could find was the one I used in the video, Ashla. But it's a moon of Tython, not a planet.
@@PapitoQinn very informative. Thank you very much
You're welcome.
4:02
So what? I don't care.
Great video, but when you record yourself next time, can you enunciate your words a little more clearly? It sounds like 8 minutes of mumble core.
Apathy itself is taking a side, the side who wins
Just discovered this channel, these are brilliant, along with your dialogues with the author of the Kreia philosophy video below (I actually really find it enlightening in the disagreement, it feels more in line with the subject matter than if you two exchanged agreement). Thank you for making these.
Thank you very much. I'm glad he's engaging with me as well.