"Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you."
The best part about that line is that if you really do spend enough time with Kreia that really isn't a surprise in the slightest. It still.... Really hits. But Kreia is very upfront and transparent with you the entire time. You get to that line and you nod your head. You know it's true. But the shaping of your character, the journey you take working through all the details, and all the different positions in the game... You have still realized something profound along the way, even if things aren't so different from when you began.
@@onimaxblade8988 to me Kotor 2, especailly the end of it is the BEST Star Wars has to offer, i respect the legacy of GL, but Kotor is like a aged fine wine, it has everything that makes a good SW, but mixed with more mature themes and concepts, Nietzche isn't for kids, it's not the simple, good x evil, is far more complex than that, yet lots of kids love it.
@@onimaxblade8988I don't think Kreia is up front and transparent with you, a lot of what she tells you are outright lies. The whole quest starts because of things she tells you, that turn out to be untrue. She manipulates you into doing what she thinks you need. It's only at the end, when she feels you've earned it, that she starts being clear.
I like Atton's comment on how most people in the galaxy doesn't even understand the difference between Jedi and Sith, but are caught up in their conflicts anyway. It does kind of undermind the moral high ground of the Jedi.
no other star wars could have line as deep as "To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it, it is something no sith or jedi has ever truly learns."
True, but you have to remember ideals might be stronger then the person who believes it. That means that just because you believe something to be true doesn't necessarily follow that the person who believes it simply doesn't have to inner strength or outer strength to make it a reality. To contradict Keira's quote, if a ideal seems to fail because it couldn't withstand external factors, does not necessarily follow that it's not true or worth believing in.
That's exactly what Darth Traya, the Lord of Betrayal, would say... trying to convince people to betray themselves and what they stand for. Like Sion's pain and Nihilus' hunger, it's just what she does.
@@Slowpoke3x every ideals that rely on non human beings wil fall because, if you want it to succeed this ideal must be reachable (willingly not under threads or big incentives) by at least a big minority of the people if not it will be crushed by reality very very quickly. Thats why communism will always fail.
I always liked how Kotor 2 mirrored Lucas's outlook on the jedi, they represent the "good" side, but can still make mistakes born of arrogance or self-righteousnes. Like how they do not join the war against the Mandalorians, but at the moment Revan appears with his "Sith" fleet, the whole order jumps to fight with him.
In this day in age I hear talk from people complaining about how we are growing to be illiterate to our media. That we don't truly understand the ins and outs of what we consume. And yet in the vast stars of the internet I see a heart filled deep dive such as this, passionately talking of an amazing story, coming to conclusions and comparing and contrasting what we know of our world with that of the sci-fi fantasy world we all know and love. It brings me joy to listen to and it's an analysis that could make a man cry strangely enough. It's something that brings hope in this vast ocean of nihilism. Well done, and well made my guy.
Thanks to Chris Avellone and Obsidian team, people are still talks about KOTOR and still remember what actually makes Star Wars great. Its a story about warning people not to be evil just to be evils sake and not to be good just for your own conscience. As Kreia asks time after time; think things through before you help people or sever the connection harshly. As Bindo says you need to learn to be a human being before you have great power and responsibillity.
Good point. If anything this is maybe the failing of the Old Jedi Order, that even though they taught Jedi that all life is part of The Force they expected Jedi to both support life, and keep themselves separated from it so as to avoid being tempted to corrupted by it.
@@WickedPrince3D Serve the Force, but don't use it. Serve Life, but don't be in it. Essentially: don't be a force user and hide away. Be Mitraa Surik, the Exile. And since Surik is a hole in the force, this can extend to: be the death of the Force, be Kreya.
@@JerbilKonaiI think my opinion of Mitraa would differ from yours. But I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at here. If perhaps those first lines are your interpretation of the Jedi or if it's an alternate philosophy. Jedi did use the Force; they just didn't abuse it; force it to do THEIR bidding; use it against itself; etc, their approach was more passive. IMHO Mitraa wasn't a hole in the Force; she'd removed herself from it to save herself from Darkside corruption during Malachor V. Other Force Users didn't understand her, and couldn't sense her, but she was still there. She used others something like a blind-man's white cane to help tap out The Force so she could use it; while remaining somewhat distanced to protect herself from corruption. The Force Bond between Mitraa and Kreia for instance proves that Mitraa was present in the Force; but in a way that wasn't obvious to other Force Users. Additionally, I can't consider Mitraa a true hole in the Force when she was instrumental in re-creating the Jedi Order.
@@WickedPrince3D One thing of note: I wasn't going for your opinion in particular, but rather what I got out of your post. So, sorry for the @ . It is hard to make a note where an idea originates in a thread and keep things stylisticly simple. I may have simplified things to make both "rules" similar sounding, but the expanded reasoning was: (Rules of the Jedi Order:) Serve the force, but don't use it (selfishly, otherwise you fall to the dark). Serve life, but don't be in it (for your own sake). From that I go for one extreme solution of those two rules: Don't use the force (don't be a force user) Don't let life happen to you (hide away) Both approaches are what Surik did before the events of KOTOR 2. And to be fair, even some of the other Jedi Masters (to a degree). The hole comment may have been me misremembering whether or not Kreya called Surik a hole or echo or if the monicer hole was meant for Darth Nihilus. If Surik was said to be a hole, then my comment stands, if she was an echo though... I'd understand an echo as essentially a give and take: give what you take, which I can't put on any character in particular. Though maybe that is an interesting point, when noone is perfect. In a sense Anakin was like an echo, returning kindness for kindness and harm for harm. Only when he failed to do so with Padme on Mustafar did he truly fail as a golden child of the Force (I don't consider the fight between Maze Windu and the Chancelor as a failing of that rule, as the Chancelor's actions seemed to be kind to Anakin, while Windu and the other masters were more clear in showing their critique than their kindness). And if she was an echo of the force, maybe she never could be a healer of it, as she would return the twists inflicted by use of the dark as well. Which only means the Order may be a reflection of what it once was, even if made better, and therefor destined to eventually repeat the errors of the past: have their members rush into a war they don't fully understand, take the sith lords down but are reduced to the last, who then rebuilds. In that sense Surik and Luke are mirrors of each other, like Anakin and Revan are mirrors. A war, the death of the order, masters in hiding, a fallen Jedi eventually redeemed, a second war, and someone who returns to the order to rebuild it. If one thinks about it, quite a lot of similarities. If only there was a lighthouse for a Bioshock reference as well :b
I love KOTOR for showing art that makes you think there'll be some light vs. dark battle like Atris against Nihilus, yet that literally never happens. The story is a completely adult subversion of the universe, fully realized in so many ways that have never been touched upon since.
@@TheCouch-Co-Opkreia:revan never fell the republic would have fallen had revan not gone to war the council did not change revan as they claim they mearly striped away the surface and allowed the true self to return one who was willing to wage war to save other but that is what I belive as a master knows there apprentice
As a PhD student in philosophy, I can only say: Thank god, a UA-camr that speaks about philosophy who understands it. You are totally right with Nietzsche, and that is rare. Most people think that he was a nihilist, what is wrong. Thanks for that stimulating video.
I read recently that Thoreau is often portrayed as rejecting people when he in fact loved visitors to his famed cabin- at which he only lived for two years. It seems that his goal wasn't to get away from people, but to get away from being part of the rat race and spend his precious time on the things he loved. (I'm not a philosopher or historian. It's just my understanding from recent articles.)
He came up with Nihilism to reject it to learn of his ideals to just stop at Nihilism is half-assing it. Which is what a lot of people do. If there's nothing more then MAKE more do well by people so when they do finally pass they had an amazing existence as they go into the void. Don't make life that very void for others because they deserve better.
No, not really. Author makes massive flaw in extrapolating point of Kreia's philosophy and does not take into account the ying/yang dynamic of light and dark side. It's good video essay but by now means is it perfect.
It is a perfect rehash of Lucas's own parroting of The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Its a phylosiphically shallow, reductionist, and utterly incorrect reading of KOTOR II, and the setting in general.
The whole of this series is meant to show the human element. Kotor is by far the most in depth story telling we've gotten on screen for anything in the series. Closely followed by the Bounty Hunter game from the early 2000's. The issue the films and shows have, on average is that they lacked depth. Clear-cut good and evil work well for a one-off or a kids movie. But, not so much for a universe with decades of comics and books to use for reference. Giving nuance to a story is precisely what the saga needed. And Sion is a very interesting one, he also has a light side counterpart in the same era.
I also think you have missed the point of Revan’s story. He didn't actively join the Sith, he was a spiritual figure. But, as Kreia says, he didn't truly fall. He allowed the Emperor to use him. And the point of the game is to do what is moral, what is objectively right, not simply follow light or dark. That's why in the Old Republic era, as well as during the New Republic and beyond you also hear of people falling to the light as well as the dark. Balance means balance, not simply pretending that one side is inherently better. True balance means using both "good" and "bad" as needed and finding the least extreme path as often as possible.
@@alexhudson277true balance from the aspect of taoism and Yin and Yang you would be right however since George lucas mixed middle eastern concepts with Christian ideals your idea of true balance is wrong, as George lucas once stated the darkside is perversion of the force, even some what like a cancer. Qui-gon was as close to balanced as you could get as he followed the will of the force not the jedi dogma.
KOTOR was my introduction to the EU when I first played it in the 2010s. I especially love the second game with its narrative and deconstruction of Jedi vs. Sith. I am currently writing a scifi universe inspired by the Star Wars EU and Gundam, that is heavily anti war themed and explores the trauma one would experience in a Star Wars inspired setting.
Written by the true OG Fans of Star Wars for the true OG fans of Star Wars. It became our Fan Fiction from what George Lucas created. This is what Kotor is.
Interestingly enough, Chris avellone and obsidian were actually not fans of Star Wars, more trekkies allegedly. They spent hours talking about what they hated about Star Wars and channeled that into a perfect deconstruction, but not an assassination
@@seanmccormick1412 to each their own, kotor 1 is a perfect Star Wars story, something that neither the prequels or sequels could replicate, kotor 2 misses a few marks due to the tight development window, but its plot and characters are some of the best in video gaming
@@jeremygeller9145 This actually isn't true They were told by Bioware "we ain't making KOTOR 2, you do it" so Avellone, who knew 0 about star wars, did a bunch of research on it to figure out what it was like It wasn't some deliberate hate piece, they didn't know enough to hate
This game set a new gold standard for Star Wars media and frankly all RPGs imo. To say I've been disappointed the past 2 decades would be a gross understatement. The fact Obsidian made this game in 14 months and we've never seen anything like since absolutely boggles my mind.
The first game was a masterpiece in many ways. It FELT like Star Wars and Revan was a very interesting character. The second game tickled mind and had Empire Strikes Back vibes.
KOTOR is quintessential Star Wars mirroring the Original Trilogy in the call to adventure, stunning revelation and redemption of an apprentice while defeating the primary antagonist. It does also flip the script on the Prequel Trilogy by using the love of the two primary protagonists to turn the tide in the favour of the Jedi and the Republic, rather than contributing to their downfall like in the Prequels. The revelations that the player character was in fact the former Sith Lord Darth Revan and that the Jedi Council "reprogrammed" him with a new identity, in order to exploit his suppresed memories to find the Ancient Rakatan Star Forge factory, are among the greatest moments in Star Wars history. KOTOR 2 is best described as a deconstructionalist take on Star Wars mythology and despite the rushed ending originally it is my favourite story in the lore. The game explores the impact of war on the galaxy and gives you the options to help stabilize or destabilize worlds touched by decades of war. The game also explores the reliance of the force by the Jedi and the Sith Lords Sion and Nihilus in particular. Sion and Nihilus were effectively reliant on the force to survive whereas Kreia and the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik were forced to learn how to live without it. Sadly a proper third game never got developed and instead we ended up with the Old Republic MMO set 300 years after the events of KOTOR 2. While I do like a lot of the story of that game it almost ignores the events of KOTOR 2 and is more of a direct sequel to the first game. I suspect that's down to the fact that KOTOR and SW:TOR were developed by Bioware and KOTOR 2 by Obsidian.
Kotor 2 did so much for Star wars in the sense of not needing to be apart of the movies gave it so much life and honestly even the fact we never got Kotor 3 was always a shame, and no I don't really count the MMO as a sequel to 2.
Maybe it's your nostalgia/affective memory talking? Because most stories on SWTOR are absolutely great. My favorites being Sith warrior, inquisitor, jedi consular and imperial agent. My only complain is tge very end of KOTET iirc because it felt a lil bit like a shonen anime ending to me.
I already know this is going to be a BANGER of a video. KOTOR II has been my absolute favorite SW story for nearly two decades now and I'm looking forward to hearing G and team's thoughts on it.
Thanks for being the first I've seen to point out that just because a character does not operate under the jedi order does not mean they are a gray jedi since that's a mather of philosophy and not alignment. Ahsoka very much is light side just like Qui Gon was; Meanwhile Dooku might be soft spoken but he clearly fell from the light. There's nothing morally ambiguous about any of them so I don't get why people even pull up that notion when refering to them... it's like they never even played Kotor1&2 to know how to tell and compare. Put Kreia next to pretty much every mainstream star wars character in existance and you'll be able to tell who's what in an instant.
I wasn't expecting this to be such an existential and overarching take on morality and philosophy...the way you were able to take such complex concepts and describe them so simply is truly remarkable, and on top of that the production top-notch, amazing content
Excellent video. Ive been disillusioned with star wars for a long while and after Kenobi just gave up on it entirely not finding any interest in something ive loved since childhood. But i always try to watch any Kotor 2 anaylsis and essays if they pop up in my feed because while i cant stomach star wars for the most part, this game will always be something special.
Thank you for this well thought out examination. I'm glad that, for once, I can find a person on youtube using philosophy to examine ideas rather than preach them. Well done, mate.
@@TheCouch-Co-Op For awhile I considered female light side revan to be my favorite and then male exile, but I like the story you presented a lot. What do you think of male/female light/darkside revan? Which is the true one? You did use light side female exile as your canon interpretation which I feel is actually a very positive story. Somehow in my couple of playthroughs of Kotor II I was always convinced the council stripped the exile of his/her connection and I would personally blame them, lightside or darkside playthroug.
Jolee Bindo.When I saw picture at the beginning, I thought you would bring him into the conversation.Alas, his words on Kashyyk were forgotten. Great video an thought processes :)
Isn't Jolee Bindo the biggest iconic character people point to for a "Grey Jedi"? If the whole Grey Jedi thing is not really a thing, there can probably be something interesting with both him and Ahsoka. Personally, I am a fan of Star Wars I have always thought there has been those seeds that the Jedi being held up as the only system as flawed. There needed to be something that took into account of the arrogance of the Jedi and a system that pushed the individuals into immersing themselves in the dark side. Was kind of hoping that Baylan Skol and Shin Hati could be something like a start.
The Jedi exile is the best self insert for people who want an immersive star wars experience. Revan sure is iconic, but by the time Revan reclaims their memories (even just according to the 2 games) they become almost a new person entirely. Whatever name we chose for them, is wiped away by the persona of Revan. All the events of Kotor 1 make up less than a year, and would have little sway once Revan's full identity returns, or even if it only returned in part. I also think it's interesting that Revan would turn away from the Jedi having been raised by birth to serve them, yet for some reason the KOTOR 1 light side Revan still sides with the light side and Jedi despite being with them... a couple of weeks? Reading closely the dialogue of KOTOR 1, it's pretty blunt and leaves little room for nuance. Revan is faced with the choice of embracing the former self, or rejecting it entirely. A curious dynamic. The light side ending doesn't sit well with me... haha, it just doesn't.
Because neither is completely right, ...saving the republic to die another day, and perpetuating the Jedi to stagnate right up until Revan's disappearance leaves you a little bitter when you no longer are at the age most of star wars is enjoyed by, the careless teens and mid-twenties. sure its a preferable ending to win the day alongside your companions, and not having to murder half of them for being unable to submit to your change of ways and morals.. its the more lighthearted entry of the two by far. ...Revan was an instrument of change, but very little in control of their own destiny, in so far that the Force (or the plot.) would almost never let Revan go, that is if you take SWTOR's continuation of it all into account. otherwise the mystery left behind in K2 leaves a nice empty space to imagine one's own ideas and reasonings.
Remember what Korea said, perhaps Jedi didn't erase his identity, just stripped it if what coveted the surface, the things brought by mandalorian wars, the Sith etc. Basically Revan we play is the man he was before the war, and this man was a Jedi still.
@@ЯАга-я4л Even so, that comes across more as a writing soft retcon than what acutally happened. In kotor 1, the playable character outright rejects the title of 'Revan.' Meanwhile, the character actively destroys their own empire they built up to stand against the True Sith. Everything Revan once stood for, is actively destroyed by this 'new' Revan. The Jedi council may have only allowed Revan to be reborn, but the Dark Side ending is allowing the original Revan to be reborn much sooner. Effectively pitting him as Lord Revan with a new apprentice, as though the Jedi hardly touched him. The Jedi Ending, Revan destroys his own empire, and only later realizes what was actually at stake. Even then, KOTOR 2 is clear the dark Revan recieves his full memories, while light Revan it is more ambiguous. Coupled with Kreia's distain for redemption (Ajunta Pall tomb) and Zez Kai Ell's point that Redemption wasn't Revan's choice... Not to mention HK-47's comments. Light side Revan, HK comments that his Master went from his true Potential (pre amnesia) to a low point. Yet, with the DS, Revan, HK claims Revan went from a high, to a low, and then RETURNS to his true potential. I'm sorry to type a book, but narratively there are more sources that would urge the player to acknowledge the Dark Revan is more in line with who Revan was originally, while Jedi Revan was a changed forced upon him.
The original order of force users, The Jedhai (spelling might be off) believed in true balance. When the schism happened it was like the Light Side followers declared themselves right without understanding the Dark Side followers. Jolee Bindo would be a great example of this original order acting for the wellness of the universe rather than holding on to the beliefs of the Jedi or the Sith. He does what is right not what a religion tells hims is right.
I remember getting the 3? Disc set for kotor as a kid for Christmas, and then begging my mom for Kotor 2 when I saw it in Walmart. These games are my favorites of all time and most of my moral/philosophical beliefs come from these games.
@@DontPretendtoCare Everything that occurs in a deterministic world is absolutely necessary, because all events are inevitable and unavoidable There’s an error in your thinking. In a deterministic system change, actual change is literally impossible. Don’t you agree? Why or why not. We all push agendas to “educate” people and have them act as we prefer That’s called morality. But you say morality doesn’t exist. Free will is not required for morality to exist. Morality is merely about preferred ideas about human behavior. The type of society you prefer is merely the product of your values But people don’t always agree on the preferred conduct of people in a given society.
There is in my opinion, a biblical misunderstanding that I think your video illustrates perfectly. The concept in the Book of Genesis about "The Tree Of Life" VS "The Tree Of The KNOWLEDGE Of Good And Evil". Many Christians misunderstand this as knowledge itself being the gateway to evil. That to blindly trust God leads to goodness, harmony, balance and eternal life, whilst the pursuit of knowledge leads to sin, destruction and death. The real truth of it in my opinion, as perfectly illustrated in your video, is that "The Tree Of The KNOWLEDGE Of Good And Evil" has a specific context that tends to be missed by most Christians. That context being, that what "The Tree Of The KNOWLEDGE Of Good And Evil" is actually representing, is the first and only sin from which all others come: arrogance. This idea that "If you are good, and all you think, feel, do, believe and are is also therefore good as well, then -- anyone who thinks differently, feels differently, does differently, believes differently and is in any way different, must then by default therefore be EVIL. And if they are evil, then it is "not a sin" to do evil things to evil, it is only a sin to do evil things towards those whom are good. " We see it in today's extremely polarized hyperbolic world. The idea that to so much as question, to so much as disagree, to so much as think anything in any other way than which ever group insists you should think, is then therefore by default, "misinformation, dangerous conspiracy theory, racism, sexism, fascism, communism, terrorism, etc" and the list goes on. Not that it necessarily actually IS any of those things, but is merely PERCEIVED as such, by the traumatized and jaded minds doing the perceiving. This has become the attitude of so-called liberals, so-called conservatives, so-called truthers, so-called Christians, so-called Jews, and so-called anything and everything else that people want to label themselves as, for whatever their reasons for taking on those labels. Even atheism has become a religion of sorts, as has statism, and science has become scientism where instead of the process of science which is the observation, exploration and measurement of reality -- now it is defined as being a consensus of those who are part of select groups who are deemed to be the singular and only proper authorities. The Jedi have this exact same problem, and as your video states -- it creates resentment, animosity and other forms of self sabotage. It creates the worst of the worst, all in the name of the so-called greater good. when in truth, it is merely people just trying to deal with whatever their traumas happen to be.
Christian theology has a deep heritage of valuing knowledge as an extention of God's truth and creation. This goes for most Christian faith traditions until the 1800s really. The ones who express the kind skepticism toward knowledge you seem to describe are actually a minority and mostly concentrated in the USA. They actually are often the ones in Christianity who are most skeptical of the Christian faith tradition ironically.
Really great video! You didn’t fall into the trap of enlightened centrism. You provided plenty of nuance and complexity and helped me better understand what I love about these games. Thanks!
Within the current era of Star Wars content, it's actually insane how fantastic these stories back in the early 2000s were and still are today. And that in a movie franchise that wasn't even concluded, conceptualized for videogames which were often looked down upon or not taken as art. To me KOTOR 1 and 2 were the pinnacle of Star Wars, the stories told were dark, complex, fascinating and emotional. And even made sense within the world George Lucas created. I've replayed these 2 games countless times and it's always interesting to look back and get a fresh perspective on what made these stories so good. Thank you for the video!
Just randomly found this vid on my recommended list. Thank you for this vid. We gamers, as a community, are trying to show the rest of the world that games can be -- and ARE -- an art form, that they are not merely "kid stuff." Games like the KOTOR series are an excellent example. The writing in KOTOR 2 was so good. It was razor-sharp. I personally haven't found a game before or since, that was able to top the caliber of writing shown here.
Wow, excellent video! Your take on Revan's 'redemption' touches on something I absolutely love. The idea that 'light Revan' is never really the Revan from before. I personally have taken a likening to Revan reclaiming his throne in the end, since he always seems the type to bend the force to his will. Never has he considered balance, or the will of the force something to beheld to. So in short, I like the idea that Revan goes on a journey of reclaiming his rightful throne, and Bastila joins him too. Perhaps it's a bit redundant, but it's preferred to the 'non-revan' Revan the game would have him be. He also then provides an excellent shadow of the Exile. The one who could not see an alternative to war and power, even when given a second chance. Then the exile, who also is given a second chance, might learn to become human. Plus, Revan looking awesome only makes sense if he's Sith :P
What's also interesting about Revan is that he never bent the Force to his will. Rather, it bent him to its will. As Kreia says, his power was like the heart of the Force. So much so that even as a child one could see his future already carved out before him by the nature of the universe itself. And even as he tried to forge his own path, he ultimately ended up following the way that had already been set for him.
Agreed. I never did like the "redemption via amnesia" plot. It felt more real if Revan reclaimed his identity as Dark Lord of the Sith, the Jedi paying the price for trying to use him. Perfectly leads into the battered and bleeding galaxy of the sequel after the fledgling Sith Empire implodes.
@@DBArtsCreators I strongly disagree with this. Revan's whole persona, is bending the Force to his will. He was steeped in the knowledge of ancient Sith Rituals, and "Even then you could see the Jedi he would slay, etched on his soul." Malachor V demonstrated Revan's heart. "Yet with Revan, there was the same commitment, but it was a subtle thing, like weaving threads in a tapestry, or strokes upon a canvas. He spoke through battle and tactics in a way one could never do in words. He showed his heart at Malachor V, and finally at the end of the Jedi Civil War. I believe he was speaking to Malak in that final battle, though few knew it." ―Brianna, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords "Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan. I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic." ―HK-47 to the Jedi Exile To say Revan was benevolent is silly. Perhaps one might say he was a pawn of destiny, and such is what led to his survival for so long as he was captured by the Jedi... but make no mistake, the first game makes it abundantly clear when talking to Yuthura; the Jedi serve the force, the Sith bend it to their will. While you may debate the semantics of whether or not Revan was truly 'Sith,' he indeed taught everyone to bend the force to his will. He corrupted people, just as he corrupted the force, breaking them, until only his will remained.
I've spent the last month avoiding this video but the algorithm was persistent. And it was right. Gave me a whole new perspective on SW itself. And no begging for likes or subs. Well, here is mine.
Honestly, this has been one of the best videos I've watched, and has taught me a lot more than I would've imagined when clicking on a video about Star Wars. Thanks.
Love this video. Hits on a good amount of things that I loved about these games. And comparing the philosophy to the real world. Love it. Legit the games exploring these philosophies is what really got me hooked into Star Wars
KOTOR and KOTOR 2 were the best games for a young person to get into. It actually made you think, it showed real time results of decisions, good and bad. Put you in the position of being the good guy or bad. Balancing relationships between friends or other characters. Big time nostalgia!
You're one hell of a story teller, this video has given me alot to think about. I may have to go back and replay Kotor 1 & 2 again and really take my time with it. I look forward to your future content if this is par for the course.
KOTOR is such a masterpiece. Writing a story so in depth, philosophical fundamented, that the intellectual properties of the player become challenged, is such a unique approach. It's the pinnacle of gaming.
Finally getting around to watching this, and I’m so happy I did. Such a good video, I’m enveloped every minute, and I can’t speak on how much it means to me personally that you have an avenue for this type of video. Thank you
Oh man... I wish games today would at least touch subjects as this at least in 10% of the capacity these games did... Good old times and games had proper writers and were actually teaching you something... Kudos for this analysis. Very very good!
>Having your entire life philosophies existentially shaped and challenged by mediocre consumer entertainment products for children. Yes, I have no doubt in my mind you wore a mask and got the vaccine. The truth is you're not even sentient, you're an NPC in real life
So holding this up in comparison to Dot's works (He who made the multi hour long 'Philosophy of Kreia, Failure of the Gray Jedi, and Foundation of Star Wars' videos) it seems you both arrive at similar conclusions. Yet, you point out some interesting takes regarding Revan, and where it seems you disagree is on the answer. His answer is to reject star wars altogether, while yours is to inject humanity into the Jedi order. The question is then, would permitting Jedi to be 'human' make them better Jedi? Or make them more prone to fall into darkness? Good arguments can be made both ways. Personally, I think it's easy to assume 'we' are the exception, that we could be the force user who is human and never succumbs to the addiction of using the force for personal gain. Even so, to assume everyone could, is a risky conclusion at best. I don't think the Jedi are unwise in their precautions.
The jedi should stop being lazy and ACTUALLY get to work. NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE!!!! Would it have killed them to at the bare minimum, save anakin's mom?
The trap here is thinking the Jedi should be one or the other. That humanity is binary and not a degree with many different aspect. Meta-narrative wise, K2 pointed out that the need for conflict will always corrupt jedi, at any time, under any Order. So a perfect jedi order work as intended eternally is impossible. It's ultimately fall on the individual to push their agenda through.
@@valentinchappa6702 Dot and by extension, Kreia make the argument that the force is the issue. Yes, dark siders are the issue, but only because the force itself hardly permits force users to be 'human' without severe risk of falling to the dark side. It is, almost as a fact, inevitable that someone not dedicated to the Jedi way of life will eventually turn dark. So while the Sith and dark siders are an issue, they are the symptom, not the disease. Yet it is this mechanic that fuels the endless war in the star wars galaxy. Look up "the foundations of star wars" or "the philosophy of Kreia" if you've not already seen them. They argue this point.
It's ironic that everyone remembers the Germans in WWII as the technological powerhouse when in reality their transportation was 80% horse and buggy. The U.S. was pretty much fully mechanized and only used horses in certain situations when it made sense.
Oh my gosh I want to say you video is amazing, I am currently playing it but had a long pause on because i have a lot to do in life. KOTOR has so many things and is so compelling that I just believe it deserves my whole attention. Man If we only we got KOTOR 3 and Ihope if they do make another KOTOR it is as good as the last but nowadays...
the fact that it wasn't a typical star wars story made this a best story in my eyes. We crap on Disney and its writers, rightfully so, over working on franchise they don't like but here Chris Avellone created something absolutely spectacular and respectful of the source material despite not particularly liking star wars. If every star wars hating writer was like Chris....
The problem with Anakin as an example of the failings of the Order is, he didn't have to stay. He could have simply chosen his life with Padme and their child. To be a participant of the Order is to sacrifice yourself, but they don't resent people leaving. Look at how well considered Dooku was up till he revealed himself as a fallen Jedi. Anakin wanted the social prestige of being a Jedi *and* the personal benefits of his life being his own. Yoda's flawed wisdom was given via the context of Anakin reporting having vague dreams of people dying; they were in the middle of a galactic scale civil war of course people were dying! One person can't stop it, so Yoda's advice boils down to making peace with the natural cycle of life. Kotor is such an amazing piece of writing; the Jedi are framed as complicit in the Mandalorian's slaughter with their unwillingness to act, but in the end they were right to be cautious, there *was* a greater threat in hiding behind Mandalorian atrocities. But In their refusal to take action, what greater good, what life were they serving? Both the prequels and kotor delve into moral traps where there is no good answer. I love them.
leaving a community you have spent almost 2 decades in, ever since you were a little boy is a nearly impossible position to take. Not to mention the time his romance with Padme panned out was also the time Clone war started, abandoning the Order at that time would make him see himself a traitor. Also what is he gonna do outside the Order? Just leeaching off Padme? Jedi training doesn't prepare you for employment. This is like asking somebody just leave their job because they dont like it. The real question is whether the Jedi Order's non-attachment rule is unproductive. And according to George Lucas, it is. It isnt that Jedi shouldnt get attached, but the key is to know when to let go. The Old Republic Jedi Order was clearly in the wrong during the Mandalorian War. 1st, this war was much less complicated than the Clone War. The Mandalorian had no unadressed grievance, they were crusading and genociding for land and power. 2nd: Kreia made this argument implicitly, that how do you even hope to know your enemy if you dont engage in practical action with or against them. If the Jedi didnt participate in the war, even just to investigate their concern, then how do they even know what is happening, who is pulling the string, what is their strategy, what is their purpose... 3rd: when we turned to the surviving Jedi Masters in K2, all of them were way off base in their judgement, esp the most ivory tower of them all: Atris. And the 3 Jedi Masters, despite being "cast down", had their mindset so conditioned by the Order they refused to egange with life and saw the truth in front of their eyes. So while Revan, Exile and co fail in the sense that they caused further harm to the galaxy. If the Order has engaged earlier on, would this have happened? Would Revan's fall happen or even be neccessary? If we take Revan's war as a way to force the Republic to reform, either by beating him or by being conquered by him, then maybe the Order could have stopped this crusade in the first place by joining the war and steered the Republc toward more peaceful reform. And with that the Jedi genocide wouldnt have happened. Bottom line is the Order refused to act whether to uphold galactic peace they lay claim to nor protecting their own intersts, while have all the power and every reasons to.
@@mdd4296 "Jedi training doesn't prepare you for employment." Ahh yes, all that technical training they receive to be able to survive definitely couldn't be turned around for profits, for sure. Not like Ahsoka wasn't shown working in a garage to pay her way or nothin' 🤣🤣 As for the rest of it, we'll just have to agree to disagree friend; they chose to not engage in a conflict occurring outside of Republic space because the vibes were rancid and they weren't sure why, but then a bunch of their young adult members went off to war and died or worse, became monsters. There is no objectively correct answer. That's the joy of the storytelling.
@ane There is a difference between working in a garage for a short time to pay their way and working a 9/5 job. The way Jedi was trained from childhood, they can barely hold an usual job. Most who left the order, if not falling to the dark side, became hermit and vagabond even b4 the war. They can definitely survive the world, but their life quality nose dive. Anakin also dont hate his current job before being manipulated by Sheev. But this is just one out of many reasons Anakin wouldnt or shouldnt leave the order he loved just to pursue a life with Padme. The real question is whether the rule was unproductive, and George Lucas said it was. Luke flipped the rule on its head when he created a new order, before that lore was nixed by Disney. The war didnt occur outside Republic space, the Outer Rim had been Republic space for atleast 10k year before Mandalorian war, when they first fought the Hutt to keep that region. They have fought several wars since then, before Mandalorian. And the Rep had already joined the Mandalorian War before the Jedi. There is no best answer in the sense that we dont know the best course of action, esp at the time the decision has to be made. However, there is a difference between the bad course, which the Jedi took and a decent one. If you try your best and fail, tough luck, you have my sympathy. If you didnt try anything and claim moral highground because of a "objective correct answer" that has never existed, anywhere. Then nah, you deserve the consequences. It's not like the Jedi was ignorant of what the Mandalorian was doing. Hell, the Mandalorian didnt even bother giving their war a fancy dress. It's not like the Jedi isnt funded and trained to deal with this exact type of crisis. How does the result prove them wrong? Self-evidence, with the Jedi genocide and further harm upon the galaxy by their ex members. Of course, some Jedis would disagree and go to war, that happens all the time be it in SW or rl. In fact, your very inaction against an unjust war fuelled the youngster's dissatisfaction with you. The youngsters you taught to keep peace and love life in the galaxy. The very least you should do is keeping track of those people, esp knowing how dangerous Jedi can become. A point that K2 wholeheartedly made. And even if we ignore the result of their uninvolvement, they still did (or more accurately didnt) everything to put themselves on the backfoot 1. They saw that the conflict is rancid. But they didnt bother finding out how it is rancid with facts on the ground. In fact, Revan found out about it after winning the war. The Council would have had the upperhand if they knew that fact the same time as Revan. 2. Leave millions to be killed and annexed by an invading power, empowering that very power. who drew no line in the sand, which can only lead to further galactic destabilisation 3. Didnt do anything to prepare the Republic against such threats until Revan returned and steamrolled them.
KOTOR 1 and 2 will always be a special experience to me, alongside other games like Planescape: Torment which really dare to ask deep complex questions which have no hard answers, but lots of valid lessons to be learned as they are contemplated regardless. Kreia is one of my favorite characters in fiction, not because I think she is right or wrong, but because she offers perspective, and in examining a well known situation from a new perspective we can see something entirely new. She breathes fresh new life into Star Wars by her every word and action.
There's a reason why I consider KOTOR and especially the EU better than the films. Because they are way more expansive, phenomenal world building and expanse to the mythology, tell much more broader stories, characterization, depth and overall good storytelling. There is just not fucking contest. The simple answer is because they are movies, movies especially live action movies are very limited/restricted on what they can do in terms of storytelling. And this applies to both the original trilogy and the prequels.
I love the comparisons you made to real-life ideological struggle. Really, I just love the overall gritty and complex nature of these games, along with the compelling narrative and characters. They are the reasons why the original KotOR is one of my favorite video game stories of all time (alongside The Last of Us Part 1 and Dante's Inferno). Edit: wording
When I was 11, I picked up KOTOR 2 for my PC because I thought the cover looked cool. When I first played it, barring its bad release and bugs, I played as the perfect light side Jedi, showing borderline faith in the force and to be good no matter what. I remember not liking Kreia, and getting upset at the story for not being like the movies, for rewarding me for going full light side. I'm 26 now. Kreia while a villain, I find sympathy in, and taught me a valuable lesson: Even ""villains"" can teach you very important life lessons. Kreia, Atton, The Handmaiden (Brianna), Visas, everyone left a huge impression on me when I went back to play this game, about 3 times. Bao Dur alone was a whole highlight to me, being a character I saw in roleplay as a close friend, and one who helped me go through my asexual awakening. If any of you have not played the KOTOR series and are reading this now? Please, I beg you to first pick up this game as well if you plan to watch this video essay. KOTOR as a series does not only apply as an interesting look into the morality of Star Wars, but one that you can easily self examine and apply to yourself and the world.
You derserve a lot of credit for this! I enjoyed the video, and it was quite educational, but I think you missed a HUGE part of KOTOR and Revan, in the fact that he never fell - he chose the dark side, to be able to fight the Ancient Sith. I think that nuances things even more, and adds a layer that the video never really got to, since it didn't even acknowledged it. This also means that "he became what he sought to destroy" is a flawed assessment
Extremely well put words, probably the most I agreed watching a video-essay on star wars. People often start philosophizing into things that just arent there in the movies and kotor games, but I believe you got it spot on. The footage was a bit cringe, but I understand it's annoying to make it at all, stayed for the great monologue.
If the KotOR remake actually arrives, and they manage to make it a faithful adaptation of the original for current-gen gaming hardware, it will be a very happy day.
Also in my opinion, the idea of a Grey Jedi or "Bendu" is not about the dichotomy of being "both good and evil at the same time" which of course clearly would NOT work. It is about being able to HAVE negative emotions and NOT allow those negative emotions to posses and co-opt you, but instead you can leverage them to positive effect. Lets take some real life examples for this one (minus the space wizard powers, of course :) The concept of "righteous anger" and taking actions that may require "counter-violence" are not based in any "hatred for your enemy", but instead are based in love and compassion for those whom that enemy is doing harm to. So you are willing to viciously and mercilessly destroy that enemy, not out of revenge, or fear or hatred -- but out of love for those whom you want to keep safe. That is a gray concept, because things like "anger" and any form of "violence" are inherently negative aspects. Yet when leveraged with love and compassion, these otherwise "negative" aspects can be used towards a positive end. And yes, you will suffer trauma if you have to do these sorts of things. But thats where self love and compassion for the self can help you heal those wounds, and allow you to embrace the love and support of others, rather than pushing everyone away as you wallow in suffering and walk down a path of self destruction. The "Bendu" that we see in Star Wars Rebels illustrates this aspect of "gray" quite well.
Mace Windu apparently had that power with his purple Saber. As did Luke Skywalker in the EU, before he was downgraded to Coward Luke hiding on Green Monster Milk Island. Timothy Zahn wrote Luke as Grand Master of a New Jedi Order
You'd be surprised how often folks gotta reminded of that. Idk how to word this delicately, so I'll apologize for those who find it blunt or offensive, but the most popular religions of our world struggle with this concept often. Morality is "owned" by the religious and their various versions of a god, according to their tenants. Whatever the god says, or what the folks that determine what their god has said, goes. Even if it's something we would view as horrendous. The very idea that it's their god's word/decision makes it morally and unequivocally correct. Anyone or anything that goes against this god's words or actions makes it and those doing said thing morally wrong. The same goes for those that have managed to gather enough power and sway over society in non-religious ways. They are able to push their views and dictate what is right and wrong within their sphere of influence, or at least have the power to impose and push their views on the topic through legislation, bribe, intimidation, etc. The rich and powerful often get lost in their own power and lose some, if not all, of their ability to relate to those they affect. What is good for them is good, and generally, the folks that complain about their actions are jealous, an enemy, are just trying to bring them down, and are therefore bad. Obviously, it's not that black and white with either example, and it wouldn't be fair to say that's how it always is. But, without the constant reminder that even if you think you're doing "good" you could be actively harming the world around you, it's not hard to get lost in your own ideals and become unable to self criticize honestly. At least to the point of actually changing behavior and views on wellbeing for the better. So, this topic is a rather important one. While not new, it's very easily forgotten, and makes a pretty interesting story if applied well.
Oh its a Star Wars story, and one of the greatest besides the original 3. The KOTOR game's stories were once regarded as a testament to the potential of what Star Wars could be when in the hands of people that are truly passionate about Star Wars and its lore. It should've been the new gold standard for all things Star Wars going into the future, this unfortunately was not the case to the dismay of many fans.
KOTOR and in a lesser way KOTOR 2 were really great and made by people, who seemed to care for the IP. It's sad what Disney did to it. The franchise, like so many others is dead by now.
To see a game as knights of the old republic still being talked about and discussed today shows just how amazing these games were
100%
I agree, attachment is for the weak and pathetic.
@@PlaystationMan-e3p the irony here is unbelievable...
The depth this game has....
1 was a lot better than 2.
"Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you."
The best part about that line is that if you really do spend enough time with Kreia that really isn't a surprise in the slightest. It still.... Really hits. But Kreia is very upfront and transparent with you the entire time. You get to that line and you nod your head. You know it's true. But the shaping of your character, the journey you take working through all the details, and all the different positions in the game... You have still realized something profound along the way, even if things aren't so different from when you began.
@@onimaxblade8988 to me Kotor 2, especailly the end of it is the BEST Star Wars has to offer, i respect the legacy of GL, but Kotor is like a aged fine wine, it has everything that makes a good SW, but mixed with more mature themes and concepts, Nietzche isn't for kids, it's not the simple, good x evil, is far more complex than that, yet lots of kids love it.
A lesson all star wars fans should know.
@@onimaxblade8988I don't think Kreia is up front and transparent with you, a lot of what she tells you are outright lies. The whole quest starts because of things she tells you, that turn out to be untrue. She manipulates you into doing what she thinks you need. It's only at the end, when she feels you've earned it, that she starts being clear.
I saw The Green Knight recently, and it exemplifies this line.
I like Atton's comment on how most people in the galaxy doesn't even understand the difference between Jedi and Sith, but are caught up in their conflicts anyway. It does kind of undermind the moral high ground of the Jedi.
Bro was spittin'
It is called Star WARS for a reason. Most of the wars are centered around the Jedi and sith, not just regular folk
@@MALICEM12 That's why their perspective is interesting. It adds depth to the universe. Makes it more compelling in my opinion.
I mean its not like its the jedi starting wars for their own interests, "most people in the galaxy" would be dead a hundred times over without them
@@alexanderlaird6206 you don't have to intentionally be a problem, to be a problem. Thus why kreia wanted to kill the force.
no other star wars could have line as deep as "To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it, it is something no sith or jedi has ever truly learns."
Very well put.
Kotor games are more smarter than i am, and i love them for it!
True, but you have to remember ideals might be stronger then the person who believes it. That means that just because you believe something to be true doesn't necessarily follow that the person who believes it simply doesn't have to inner strength or outer strength to make it a reality. To contradict Keira's quote, if a ideal seems to fail because it couldn't withstand external factors, does not necessarily follow that it's not true or worth believing in.
That's exactly what Darth Traya, the Lord of Betrayal, would say... trying to convince people to betray themselves and what they stand for. Like Sion's pain and Nihilus' hunger, it's just what she does.
@@Slowpoke3x every ideals that rely on non human beings wil fall because, if you want it to succeed this ideal must be reachable (willingly not under threads or big incentives) by at least a big minority of the people if not it will be crushed by reality very very quickly. Thats why communism will always fail.
I always liked how Kotor 2 mirrored Lucas's outlook on the jedi, they represent the "good" side, but can still make mistakes born of arrogance or self-righteousnes. Like how they do not join the war against the Mandalorians, but at the moment Revan appears with his "Sith" fleet, the whole order jumps to fight with him.
We love nuanced storytelling.
It’s crazy to me how kotor built on the prequels practically as they came out in a way that feature films failed to roughly 10 years later
An Old Republic show needs to happen.
No kotor built on the prequels before the prequels which was totj
@@TheCouch-Co-Op Needed.
Just not Disney please God no
@@TheCouch-Co-Op, word. Animate it like Clones Wars/Bad Batch, or spend mega-bucks on Live Action.
In this day in age I hear talk from people complaining about how we are growing to be illiterate to our media. That we don't truly understand the ins and outs of what we consume. And yet in the vast stars of the internet I see a heart filled deep dive such as this, passionately talking of an amazing story, coming to conclusions and comparing and contrasting what we know of our world with that of the sci-fi fantasy world we all know and love.
It brings me joy to listen to and it's an analysis that could make a man cry strangely enough. It's something that brings hope in this vast ocean of nihilism.
Well done, and well made my guy.
Well stated 🤙
The music in kotor 2 was hauntingly great. It definitely set the tone for the themes in the game.
One of the most underrated videogame scores.
That Republic Commando theme his hard as well
Mandalorian Outpost goes hardest 🔥
The 'Rebuilt Jedi Enclave' theme is still the most emotional ost I've ever heard in a video game.
I was scared this would just be a rehash of "Philosophy of Kreia", but you proofed me wrong. Stellar job (pun intended)!
We like the Philosophy of Gilroyscopa4872
Yeah, that video really needed a response; moreover, it needed THIS response. I’m so glad it’s in the world.
Kreia, also known by the fans as a deeply well written character. Unlike other ones who deepest trait is "I'm a girl".
proved*
Thanks to Chris Avellone and Obsidian team, people are still talks about KOTOR and still remember what actually makes Star Wars great.
Its a story about warning people not to be evil just to be evils sake and not to be good just for your own conscience. As Kreia asks time after time; think things through before you help people or sever the connection harshly. As Bindo says you need to learn to be a human being before you have great power and responsibillity.
Something something Spiderman.
Good point. If anything this is maybe the failing of the Old Jedi Order, that even though they taught Jedi that all life is part of The Force they expected Jedi to both support life, and keep themselves separated from it so as to avoid being tempted to corrupted by it.
@@WickedPrince3D
Serve the Force, but don't use it.
Serve Life, but don't be in it.
Essentially: don't be a force user and hide away. Be Mitraa Surik, the Exile.
And since Surik is a hole in the force, this can extend to: be the death of the Force, be Kreya.
@@JerbilKonaiI think my opinion of Mitraa would differ from yours. But I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at here. If perhaps those first lines are your interpretation of the Jedi or if it's an alternate philosophy. Jedi did use the Force; they just didn't abuse it; force it to do THEIR bidding; use it against itself; etc, their approach was more passive. IMHO Mitraa wasn't a hole in the Force; she'd removed herself from it to save herself from Darkside corruption during Malachor V. Other Force Users didn't understand her, and couldn't sense her, but she was still there. She used others something like a blind-man's white cane to help tap out The Force so she could use it; while remaining somewhat distanced to protect herself from corruption. The Force Bond between Mitraa and Kreia for instance proves that Mitraa was present in the Force; but in a way that wasn't obvious to other Force Users. Additionally, I can't consider Mitraa a true hole in the Force when she was instrumental in re-creating the Jedi Order.
@@WickedPrince3D One thing of note: I wasn't going for your opinion in particular, but rather what I got out of your post. So, sorry for the @ . It is hard to make a note where an idea originates in a thread and keep things stylisticly simple.
I may have simplified things to make both "rules" similar sounding, but the expanded reasoning was:
(Rules of the Jedi Order:)
Serve the force, but don't use it (selfishly, otherwise you fall to the dark).
Serve life, but don't be in it (for your own sake).
From that I go for one extreme solution of those two rules:
Don't use the force (don't be a force user)
Don't let life happen to you (hide away)
Both approaches are what Surik did before the events of KOTOR 2. And to be fair, even some of the other Jedi Masters (to a degree).
The hole comment may have been me misremembering whether or not Kreya called Surik a hole or echo or if the monicer hole was meant for Darth Nihilus.
If Surik was said to be a hole, then my comment stands, if she was an echo though... I'd understand an echo as essentially a give and take: give what you take, which I can't put on any character in particular. Though maybe that is an interesting point, when noone is perfect. In a sense Anakin was like an echo, returning kindness for kindness and harm for harm. Only when he failed to do so with Padme on Mustafar did he truly fail as a golden child of the Force (I don't consider the fight between Maze Windu and the Chancelor as a failing of that rule, as the Chancelor's actions seemed to be kind to Anakin, while Windu and the other masters were more clear in showing their critique than their kindness).
And if she was an echo of the force, maybe she never could be a healer of it, as she would return the twists inflicted by use of the dark as well. Which only means the Order may be a reflection of what it once was, even if made better, and therefor destined to eventually repeat the errors of the past: have their members rush into a war they don't fully understand, take the sith lords down but are reduced to the last, who then rebuilds. In that sense Surik and Luke are mirrors of each other, like Anakin and Revan are mirrors.
A war, the death of the order, masters in hiding, a fallen Jedi eventually redeemed, a second war, and someone who returns to the order to rebuild it.
If one thinks about it, quite a lot of similarities.
If only there was a lighthouse for a Bioshock reference as well :b
G talking about good games is exactly what the world needs rn
Gouch
I love KOTOR for showing art that makes you think there'll be some light vs. dark battle like Atris against Nihilus, yet that literally never happens. The story is a completely adult subversion of the universe, fully realized in so many ways that have never been touched upon since.
One of the best to ever do it.
Well said
KOTOR I was great, but KOTOR II was next level in terms of story, atmosphere and philosophy (especially with Kreia).
Couldn't agree more.
@@TheCouch-Co-Opkreia:revan never fell the republic would have fallen had revan not gone to war the council did not change revan as they claim they mearly striped away the surface and allowed the true self to return one who was willing to wage war to save other but that is what I belive as a master knows there apprentice
As a PhD student in philosophy, I can only say: Thank god, a UA-camr that speaks about philosophy who understands it. You are totally right with Nietzsche, and that is rare. Most people think that he was a nihilist, what is wrong. Thanks for that stimulating video.
Your comment is appreciated
@@TheCouch-Co-Op Just a heads up. His name is pronounced "Knee-Cha" not "Knee-Chee" :)
Indeed, if anything he was trying to understand and solve nihilism. Not adhere to it.
I read recently that Thoreau is often portrayed as rejecting people when he in fact loved visitors to his famed cabin- at which he only lived for two years. It seems that his goal wasn't to get away from people, but to get away from being part of the rat race and spend his precious time on the things he loved.
(I'm not a philosopher or historian. It's just my understanding from recent articles.)
He came up with Nihilism to reject it to learn of his ideals to just stop at Nihilism is half-assing it. Which is what a lot of people do. If there's nothing more then MAKE more do well by people so when they do finally pass they had an amazing existence as they go into the void. Don't make life that very void for others because they deserve better.
Bro just casually dropped one of the best analyses of the ideologies of Star Wars
No, not really. Author makes massive flaw in extrapolating point of Kreia's philosophy and does not take into account the ying/yang dynamic of light and dark side. It's good video essay but by now means is it perfect.
@@Nobody32990he needs a peer review
It is a perfect rehash of Lucas's own parroting of The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Its a phylosiphically shallow, reductionist, and utterly incorrect reading of KOTOR II, and the setting in general.
Idk what I did to my algorithm to keep getting served this buffet of KOTOR think pieces, but man what a time to be alive
The whole of this series is meant to show the human element. Kotor is by far the most in depth story telling we've gotten on screen for anything in the series. Closely followed by the Bounty Hunter game from the early 2000's. The issue the films and shows have, on average is that they lacked depth. Clear-cut good and evil work well for a one-off or a kids movie. But, not so much for a universe with decades of comics and books to use for reference. Giving nuance to a story is precisely what the saga needed. And Sion is a very interesting one, he also has a light side counterpart in the same era.
I also think you have missed the point of Revan’s story. He didn't actively join the Sith, he was a spiritual figure. But, as Kreia says, he didn't truly fall. He allowed the Emperor to use him.
And the point of the game is to do what is moral, what is objectively right, not simply follow light or dark. That's why in the Old Republic era, as well as during the New Republic and beyond you also hear of people falling to the light as well as the dark. Balance means balance, not simply pretending that one side is inherently better. True balance means using both "good" and "bad" as needed and finding the least extreme path as often as possible.
@@alexhudson277true balance from the aspect of taoism and Yin and Yang you would be right however since George lucas mixed middle eastern concepts with Christian ideals your idea of true balance is wrong, as George lucas once stated the darkside is perversion of the force, even some what like a cancer. Qui-gon was as close to balanced as you could get as he followed the will of the force not the jedi dogma.
You know you made a good game(s) when people still talk about said game(s) after twenty years its release.
100%
It could also be the worst of the worst and to be used as a deterrent. But generally, yes ;b
Still talking about it and it released in an unfinished state. Fantastic game
@@Terminaut1 restored content mod
KOTOR 1 & 2 are some of my favorite games growing up, thanks for making this video.
GOATed games. GOATed comment.
i played these games first time in 2018 and i loved every second of it (except combat)
KOTOR was my introduction to the EU when I first played it in the 2010s. I especially love the second game with its narrative and deconstruction of Jedi vs. Sith. I am currently writing a scifi universe inspired by the Star Wars EU and Gundam, that is heavily anti war themed and explores the trauma one would experience in a Star Wars inspired setting.
Written by the true OG Fans of Star Wars for the true OG fans of Star Wars. It became our Fan Fiction from what George Lucas created. This is what Kotor is.
Interestingly enough, Chris avellone and obsidian were actually not fans of Star Wars, more trekkies allegedly. They spent hours talking about what they hated about Star Wars and channeled that into a perfect deconstruction, but not an assassination
@@jeremygeller9145 LOL. No wonder I liked/played Kotor 1 more than Kotor 2.
@@seanmccormick1412 to each their own, kotor 1 is a perfect Star Wars story, something that neither the prequels or sequels could replicate, kotor 2 misses a few marks due to the tight development window, but its plot and characters are some of the best in video gaming
@@jeremygeller9145 This actually isn't true
They were told by Bioware "we ain't making KOTOR 2, you do it" so Avellone, who knew 0 about star wars, did a bunch of research on it to figure out what it was like
It wasn't some deliberate hate piece, they didn't know enough to hate
This game set a new gold standard for Star Wars media and frankly all RPGs imo. To say I've been disappointed the past 2 decades would be a gross understatement. The fact Obsidian made this game in 14 months and we've never seen anything like since absolutely boggles my mind.
Couldnt agree more dude.
These games are miles ahead of other Star Wars media.
The first game was a masterpiece in many ways. It FELT like Star Wars and Revan was a very interesting character. The second game tickled mind and had Empire Strikes Back vibes.
Master/Dr. Anakin Skywalker: "Did someone say dichotomy?!"
I would like to hear the unabridged thesis
I understood That Reference🤓😎
More like the Story of Dath Plagiarise
I would actually like that.
at least we can put this on the fridge
KOTOR is quintessential Star Wars mirroring the Original Trilogy in the call to adventure, stunning revelation and redemption of an apprentice while defeating the primary antagonist. It does also flip the script on the Prequel Trilogy by using the love of the two primary protagonists to turn the tide in the favour of the Jedi and the Republic, rather than contributing to their downfall like in the Prequels. The revelations that the player character was in fact the former Sith Lord Darth Revan and that the Jedi Council "reprogrammed" him with a new identity, in order to exploit his suppresed memories to find the Ancient Rakatan Star Forge factory, are among the greatest moments in Star Wars history.
KOTOR 2 is best described as a deconstructionalist take on Star Wars mythology and despite the rushed ending originally it is my favourite story in the lore. The game explores the impact of war on the galaxy and gives you the options to help stabilize or destabilize worlds touched by decades of war. The game also explores the reliance of the force by the Jedi and the Sith Lords Sion and Nihilus in particular. Sion and Nihilus were effectively reliant on the force to survive whereas Kreia and the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik were forced to learn how to live without it.
Sadly a proper third game never got developed and instead we ended up with the Old Republic MMO set 300 years after the events of KOTOR 2. While I do like a lot of the story of that game it almost ignores the events of KOTOR 2 and is more of a direct sequel to the first game. I suspect that's down to the fact that KOTOR and SW:TOR were developed by Bioware and KOTOR 2 by Obsidian.
Kotor 2 did so much for Star wars in the sense of not needing to be apart of the movies gave it so much life and honestly even the fact we never got Kotor 3 was always a shame, and no I don't really count the MMO as a sequel to 2.
Give the Sith warrior story a try. Preferably light side. It really feels like KOTOR 3. It’s so unique too.
Maybe it's your nostalgia/affective memory talking? Because most stories on SWTOR are absolutely great. My favorites being Sith warrior, inquisitor, jedi consular and imperial agent. My only complain is tge very end of KOTET iirc because it felt a lil bit like a shonen anime ending to me.
I already know this is going to be a BANGER of a video. KOTOR II has been my absolute favorite SW story for nearly two decades now and I'm looking forward to hearing G and team's thoughts on it.
Have you seen Andor yet? Fair if you have but if you like KOTOR I expect you'd also like it.
I’ve honestly learned more about philosophy through these games and the very intellectual creators talking about it than I have in college.
Old Republic lore is the better Story than the Movie era
Thanks for being the first I've seen to point out that just because a character does not operate under the jedi order does not mean they are a gray jedi since that's a mather of philosophy and not alignment.
Ahsoka very much is light side just like Qui Gon was; Meanwhile Dooku might be soft spoken but he clearly fell from the light. There's nothing morally ambiguous about any of them so I don't get why people even pull up that notion when refering to them... it's like they never even played Kotor1&2 to know how to tell and compare. Put Kreia next to pretty much every mainstream star wars character in existance and you'll be able to tell who's what in an instant.
I wasn't expecting this to be such an existential and overarching take on morality and philosophy...the way you were able to take such complex concepts and describe them so simply is truly remarkable, and on top of that the production top-notch, amazing content
Fun fact: one of the main writers for KOTOR is working on the new cyberpunk 2077 sequel, so you know that the story is going to be amazing.
It's so like kotor staff to make great stories attached to games that don't work
Is it Drew Karpyshyn?
@@smugplushExactly, like L4D2 and B4B
@@ZerklassDrew Karpshin was also instrumental to Mass Effect's story.
Excellent video. Ive been disillusioned with star wars for a long while and after Kenobi just gave up on it entirely not finding any interest in something ive loved since childhood. But i always try to watch any Kotor 2 anaylsis and essays if they pop up in my feed because while i cant stomach star wars for the most part, this game will always be something special.
Kenobi had good scenes, and many not so good ones.
Thank you for this well thought out examination. I'm glad that, for once, I can find a person on youtube using philosophy to examine ideas rather than preach them. Well done, mate.
Thank you! It was a ton of fun working om this project.
@@TheCouch-Co-Op For awhile I considered female light side revan to be my favorite and then male exile, but I like the story you presented a lot. What do you think of male/female light/darkside revan? Which is the true one? You did use light side female exile as your canon interpretation which I feel is actually a very positive story. Somehow in my couple of playthroughs of Kotor II I was always convinced the council stripped the exile of his/her connection and I would personally blame them, lightside or darkside playthroug.
Jolee Bindo.When I saw picture at the beginning, I thought you would bring him into the conversation.Alas, his words on Kashyyk were forgotten. Great video an thought processes :)
We'd love to explore more Star Wars characters like Jolee in the future, if you can think of any others!
Isn't Jolee Bindo the biggest iconic character people point to for a "Grey Jedi"? If the whole Grey Jedi thing is not really a thing, there can probably be something interesting with both him and Ahsoka.
Personally, I am a fan of Star Wars I have always thought there has been those seeds that the Jedi being held up as the only system as flawed. There needed to be something that took into account of the arrogance of the Jedi and a system that pushed the individuals into immersing themselves in the dark side.
Was kind of hoping that Baylan Skol and Shin Hati could be something like a start.
The Jedi exile is the best self insert for people who want an immersive star wars experience. Revan sure is iconic, but by the time Revan reclaims their memories (even just according to the 2 games) they become almost a new person entirely. Whatever name we chose for them, is wiped away by the persona of Revan. All the events of Kotor 1 make up less than a year, and would have little sway once Revan's full identity returns, or even if it only returned in part.
I also think it's interesting that Revan would turn away from the Jedi having been raised by birth to serve them, yet for some reason the KOTOR 1 light side Revan still sides with the light side and Jedi despite being with them... a couple of weeks?
Reading closely the dialogue of KOTOR 1, it's pretty blunt and leaves little room for nuance. Revan is faced with the choice of embracing the former self, or rejecting it entirely. A curious dynamic.
The light side ending doesn't sit well with me... haha, it just doesn't.
Because neither is completely right, ...saving the republic to die another day, and perpetuating the Jedi to stagnate right up until Revan's disappearance leaves you a little bitter when you no longer are at the age most of star wars is enjoyed by, the careless teens and mid-twenties. sure its a preferable ending to win the day alongside your companions, and not having to murder half of them for being unable to submit to your change of ways and morals.. its the more lighthearted entry of the two by far. ...Revan was an instrument of change, but very little in control of their own destiny, in so far that the Force (or the plot.) would almost never let Revan go, that is if you take SWTOR's continuation of it all into account. otherwise the mystery left behind in K2 leaves a nice empty space to imagine one's own ideas and reasonings.
@@Noxims47314 Yeah forget about the Revan novel and Swtor. Stripping Revan's agency is about the worst thing to do for the character.
Remember what Korea said, perhaps Jedi didn't erase his identity, just stripped it if what coveted the surface, the things brought by mandalorian wars, the Sith etc. Basically Revan we play is the man he was before the war, and this man was a Jedi still.
@@ЯАга-я4л Even so, that comes across more as a writing soft retcon than what acutally happened. In kotor 1, the playable character outright rejects the title of 'Revan.' Meanwhile, the character actively destroys their own empire they built up to stand against the True Sith. Everything Revan once stood for, is actively destroyed by this 'new' Revan. The Jedi council may have only allowed Revan to be reborn, but the Dark Side ending is allowing the original Revan to be reborn much sooner. Effectively pitting him as Lord Revan with a new apprentice, as though the Jedi hardly touched him. The Jedi Ending, Revan destroys his own empire, and only later realizes what was actually at stake. Even then, KOTOR 2 is clear the dark Revan recieves his full memories, while light Revan it is more ambiguous. Coupled with Kreia's distain for redemption (Ajunta Pall tomb) and Zez Kai Ell's point that Redemption wasn't Revan's choice... Not to mention HK-47's comments.
Light side Revan, HK comments that his Master went from his true Potential (pre amnesia) to a low point. Yet, with the DS, Revan, HK claims Revan went from a high, to a low, and then RETURNS to his true potential.
I'm sorry to type a book, but narratively there are more sources that would urge the player to acknowledge the Dark Revan is more in line with who Revan was originally, while Jedi Revan was a changed forced upon him.
The original order of force users, The Jedhai (spelling might be off) believed in true balance. When the schism happened it was like the Light Side followers declared themselves right without understanding the Dark Side followers. Jolee Bindo would be a great example of this original order acting for the wellness of the universe rather than holding on to the beliefs of the Jedi or the Sith. He does what is right not what a religion tells hims is right.
This game is timeless. Thank you for this, it's a big part of my childhood.
I remember getting the 3? Disc set for kotor as a kid for Christmas, and then begging my mom for Kotor 2 when I saw it in Walmart. These games are my favorites of all time and most of my moral/philosophical beliefs come from these games.
Morals aren't real.
@@DontPretendtoCare Everything that occurs in a deterministic world is absolutely necessary, because all events are inevitable and unavoidable
There’s an error in your thinking.
In a deterministic system change, actual change is literally impossible.
Don’t you agree?
Why or why not.
We all push agendas to “educate” people and have them act as we prefer
That’s called morality. But you say morality doesn’t exist.
Free will is not required for morality to exist. Morality is merely about preferred ideas about human behavior.
The type of society you prefer is merely the product of your values But people don’t always agree on the preferred conduct of people in a given society.
@@DontPretendtoCare go live life without them and see how you like it
@@dubscheckum8246Everyone does every day of their life pussy.
Finally, an hour-long video about KOTOR 1&2 with Music. THANK YOU!
There is in my opinion, a biblical misunderstanding that I think your video illustrates perfectly. The concept in the Book of Genesis about "The Tree Of Life" VS "The Tree Of The KNOWLEDGE Of Good And Evil". Many Christians misunderstand this as knowledge itself being the gateway to evil. That to blindly trust God leads to goodness, harmony, balance and eternal life, whilst the pursuit of knowledge leads to sin, destruction and death. The real truth of it in my opinion, as perfectly illustrated in your video, is that "The Tree Of The KNOWLEDGE Of Good And Evil" has a specific context that tends to be missed by most Christians. That context being, that what "The Tree Of The KNOWLEDGE Of Good And Evil" is actually representing, is the first and only sin from which all others come: arrogance. This idea that "If you are good, and all you think, feel, do, believe and are is also therefore good as well, then -- anyone who thinks differently, feels differently, does differently, believes differently and is in any way different, must then by default therefore be EVIL. And if they are evil, then it is "not a sin" to do evil things to evil, it is only a sin to do evil things towards those whom are good. "
We see it in today's extremely polarized hyperbolic world. The idea that to so much as question, to so much as disagree, to so much as think anything in any other way than which ever group insists you should think, is then therefore by default, "misinformation, dangerous conspiracy theory, racism, sexism, fascism, communism, terrorism, etc" and the list goes on. Not that it necessarily actually IS any of those things, but is merely PERCEIVED as such, by the traumatized and jaded minds doing the perceiving. This has become the attitude of so-called liberals, so-called conservatives, so-called truthers, so-called Christians, so-called Jews, and so-called anything and everything else that people want to label themselves as, for whatever their reasons for taking on those labels. Even atheism has become a religion of sorts, as has statism, and science has become scientism where instead of the process of science which is the observation, exploration and measurement of reality -- now it is defined as being a consensus of those who are part of select groups who are deemed to be the singular and only proper authorities.
The Jedi have this exact same problem, and as your video states -- it creates resentment, animosity and other forms of self sabotage. It creates the worst of the worst, all in the name of the so-called greater good. when in truth, it is merely people just trying to deal with whatever their traumas happen to be.
Christian theology has a deep heritage of valuing knowledge as an extention of God's truth and creation. This goes for most Christian faith traditions until the 1800s really. The ones who express the kind skepticism toward knowledge you seem to describe are actually a minority and mostly concentrated in the USA. They actually are often the ones in Christianity who are most skeptical of the Christian faith tradition ironically.
Really great video! You didn’t fall into the trap of enlightened centrism. You provided plenty of nuance and complexity and helped me better understand what I love about these games. Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
oh wow, the fact that you know that Alpha male/Beta male is behavior only observed in captivity just earned you a instant sub.
Welcome to the pack ;)
Isn't living in cages in apartment blocks, working in factories, living with people crowded into cities in a dirty environment a form of captivity?
@@cantionaleecclesiasticum5378yes
Within the current era of Star Wars content, it's actually insane how fantastic these stories back in the early 2000s were and still are today. And that in a movie franchise that wasn't even concluded, conceptualized for videogames which were often looked down upon or not taken as art. To me KOTOR 1 and 2 were the pinnacle of Star Wars, the stories told were dark, complex, fascinating and emotional. And even made sense within the world George Lucas created. I've replayed these 2 games countless times and it's always interesting to look back and get a fresh perspective on what made these stories so good. Thank you for the video!
This is the best Star Wars/ video game video I’ve ever seen 👏 great work M8
Appreciated!
Just randomly found this vid on my recommended list.
Thank you for this vid.
We gamers, as a community, are trying to show the rest of the world that games can be -- and ARE -- an art form, that they are not merely "kid stuff." Games like the KOTOR series are an excellent example.
The writing in KOTOR 2 was so good. It was razor-sharp. I personally haven't found a game before or since, that was able to top the caliber of writing shown here.
Wow, excellent video!
Your take on Revan's 'redemption' touches on something I absolutely love. The idea that 'light Revan' is never really the Revan from before. I personally have taken a likening to Revan reclaiming his throne in the end, since he always seems the type to bend the force to his will. Never has he considered balance, or the will of the force something to beheld to. So in short, I like the idea that Revan goes on a journey of reclaiming his rightful throne, and Bastila joins him too. Perhaps it's a bit redundant, but it's preferred to the 'non-revan' Revan the game would have him be.
He also then provides an excellent shadow of the Exile. The one who could not see an alternative to war and power, even when given a second chance. Then the exile, who also is given a second chance, might learn to become human.
Plus, Revan looking awesome only makes sense if he's Sith :P
What's also interesting about Revan is that he never bent the Force to his will. Rather, it bent him to its will.
As Kreia says, his power was like the heart of the Force. So much so that even as a child one could see his future already carved out before him by the nature of the universe itself. And even as he tried to forge his own path, he ultimately ended up following the way that had already been set for him.
Agreed. I never did like the "redemption via amnesia" plot. It felt more real if Revan reclaimed his identity as Dark Lord of the Sith, the Jedi paying the price for trying to use him. Perfectly leads into the battered and bleeding galaxy of the sequel after the fledgling Sith Empire implodes.
@@dianabarnett6886 Yes... :)
@@DBArtsCreators I strongly disagree with this. Revan's whole persona, is bending the Force to his will. He was steeped in the knowledge of ancient Sith Rituals, and "Even then you could see the Jedi he would slay, etched on his soul."
Malachor V demonstrated Revan's heart.
"Yet with Revan, there was the same commitment, but it was a subtle thing, like weaving threads in a tapestry, or strokes upon a canvas. He spoke through battle and tactics in a way one could never do in words. He showed his heart at Malachor V, and finally at the end of the Jedi Civil War. I believe he was speaking to Malak in that final battle, though few knew it."
―Brianna, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
"Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan. I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."
―HK-47 to the Jedi Exile
To say Revan was benevolent is silly. Perhaps one might say he was a pawn of destiny, and such is what led to his survival for so long as he was captured by the Jedi... but make no mistake, the first game makes it abundantly clear when talking to Yuthura; the Jedi serve the force, the Sith bend it to their will. While you may debate the semantics of whether or not Revan was truly 'Sith,' he indeed taught everyone to bend the force to his will. He corrupted people, just as he corrupted the force, breaking them, until only his will remained.
This channel is going to blow up. I am calling it now. Can’t wait to see what else you cover in the future.
We're just getting started ;)
shame this video hasn't seem to gotten the same traction as your other content. this video is phenomenal
Don't speak too soon!
I've spent the last month avoiding this video but the algorithm was persistent. And it was right. Gave me a whole new perspective on SW itself. And no begging for likes or subs.
Well, here is mine.
This needs like.... a few million more views. You deserve *waaaaaay more* than a measly 15k
Don't speak too soon ;)
Honestly, this has been one of the best videos I've watched, and has taught me a lot more than I would've imagined when clicking on a video about Star Wars. Thanks.
What keeps me happy with Star Wars is knowing there are fans like you who really appreciate and love the deeper aspects of the world. Fantastic video!
I normally don't watch videos longer than ten minutes on youtube, but I was attentive the entire 57 minutes here. This was a banger
I absolutely loved the way you wrote the script. Beautiful writing.
The fact it's not a typical star wars story is why I LOVE IT
Great video btw
when he says you cant have your force lightning and force heal to i just imagine Kyle Katarn going " hold my beer "
True!
I think these games understand Star Wars better than any of the films do. Excellent video.
Thank you! Looking forward to making more like it.
Love this video. Hits on a good amount of things that I loved about these games. And comparing the philosophy to the real world. Love it.
Legit the games exploring these philosophies is what really got me hooked into Star Wars
Some of the smartest videogame writing ever.
KOTOR and KOTOR 2 were the best games for a young person to get into. It actually made you think, it showed real time results of decisions, good and bad. Put you in the position of being the good guy or bad. Balancing relationships between friends or other characters. Big time nostalgia!
You're one hell of a story teller, this video has given me alot to think about. I may have to go back and replay Kotor 1 & 2 again and really take my time with it. I look forward to your future content if this is par for the course.
We'd love to do more philosophical breakdowns on games like this! if you can think of others to cover let us know.
I'd listen to a five hour video explanation on this, Nietzsche, and further applications to philosophy and psychology.
Stellar job.
Definitely gonna give the games a try at some point, sounds like they got a lot to unpack for the player.
Rich in writing
KOTOR is such a masterpiece. Writing a story so in depth, philosophical fundamented, that the intellectual properties of the player become challenged, is such a unique approach. It's the pinnacle of gaming.
Finally getting around to watching this, and I’m so happy I did. Such a good video, I’m enveloped every minute, and I can’t speak on how much it means to me personally that you have an avenue for this type of video. Thank you
Thank you!
One of the best UA-cam videos I've seen, will def come back to rewatch
KotOR ruined Star Wars for me, lol. Never after could I look at the simplistic stories of the movies and TV shows the same way. Absolutely fantastic
You sir, have made one of my most favorite games into one of my most favorite philosophies.
This video is great! I hope you tackle more philosophical games in the future.
Sure thing!
This was an excellent post on what I consider to be the best artful storytelling in all of Star Wars. KOTOR was truly ahead of its time.
Agreed! Ty
This feels like a real life philosopher stumbled upon the Star Wars universe. I love this analysis. The entire runtime is insightful
Oh man... I wish games today would at least touch subjects as this at least in 10% of the capacity these games did... Good old times and games had proper writers and were actually teaching you something... Kudos for this analysis. Very very good!
Kotor, especially II shaped my philosophy in a big way lol
>Having your entire life philosophies existentially shaped and challenged by mediocre consumer entertainment products for children.
Yes, I have no doubt in my mind you wore a mask and got the vaccine. The truth is you're not even sentient, you're an NPC in real life
I miss these games. They were my favorite growing up and I want to experience them as an adult now that I’m old enough to appreciate their story.
So holding this up in comparison to Dot's works (He who made the multi hour long 'Philosophy of Kreia, Failure of the Gray Jedi, and Foundation of Star Wars' videos) it seems you both arrive at similar conclusions. Yet, you point out some interesting takes regarding Revan, and where it seems you disagree is on the answer. His answer is to reject star wars altogether, while yours is to inject humanity into the Jedi order.
The question is then, would permitting Jedi to be 'human' make them better Jedi? Or make them more prone to fall into darkness? Good arguments can be made both ways. Personally, I think it's easy to assume 'we' are the exception, that we could be the force user who is human and never succumbs to the addiction of using the force for personal gain. Even so, to assume everyone could, is a risky conclusion at best. I don't think the Jedi are unwise in their precautions.
The jedi should stop being lazy and ACTUALLY get to work. NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE!!!! Would it have killed them to at the bare minimum, save anakin's mom?
The trap here is thinking the Jedi should be one or the other. That humanity is binary and not a degree with many different aspect.
Meta-narrative wise, K2 pointed out that the need for conflict will always corrupt jedi, at any time, under any Order. So a perfect jedi order work as intended eternally is impossible. It's ultimately fall on the individual to push their agenda through.
@@mdd4296 Excellent point, and the reality that the Force itself is the issue.
@@colbyentzminger217 no its dark side users.
@@valentinchappa6702 Dot and by extension, Kreia make the argument that the force is the issue. Yes, dark siders are the issue, but only because the force itself hardly permits force users to be 'human' without severe risk of falling to the dark side. It is, almost as a fact, inevitable that someone not dedicated to the Jedi way of life will eventually turn dark.
So while the Sith and dark siders are an issue, they are the symptom, not the disease. Yet it is this mechanic that fuels the endless war in the star wars galaxy. Look up "the foundations of star wars" or "the philosophy of Kreia" if you've not already seen them. They argue this point.
It's ironic that everyone remembers the Germans in WWII as the technological powerhouse when in reality their transportation was 80% horse and buggy. The U.S. was pretty much fully mechanized and only used horses in certain situations when it made sense.
Honestly so few people know that wolves only act that way in captivity, was cool to hear someone else saying it.
Can you PLEASE do mass effect!? Fell in love this video I showed my gf and after two years she’s playing kotor along with me :)
Would love to do a Mass Effect video!
@@TheCouch-Co-Op I’ll stay tuned then! :)
Oh my gosh I want to say you video is amazing, I am currently playing it but had a long pause on because i have a lot to do in life. KOTOR has so many things and is so compelling that I just believe it deserves my whole attention. Man If we only we got KOTOR 3 and Ihope if they do make another KOTOR it is as good as the last but nowadays...
Great to see you branching out from R6, and into one of my favorite games of all things. Looking forward to more 👍
Heck yeah!
They may not been the best games I ever played, but they left a very deep influence on my way of thinking about morality for sure.
awesome vid Greg. I’ve been asking you on twitter to make it for a while so I’m glad it was a banger
Grouch
the fact that it wasn't a typical star wars story made this a best story in my eyes. We crap on Disney and its writers, rightfully so, over working on franchise they don't like but here Chris Avellone created something absolutely spectacular and respectful of the source material despite not particularly liking star wars. If every star wars hating writer was like Chris....
The problem with Anakin as an example of the failings of the Order is, he didn't have to stay. He could have simply chosen his life with Padme and their child. To be a participant of the Order is to sacrifice yourself, but they don't resent people leaving. Look at how well considered Dooku was up till he revealed himself as a fallen Jedi. Anakin wanted the social prestige of being a Jedi *and* the personal benefits of his life being his own. Yoda's flawed wisdom was given via the context of Anakin reporting having vague dreams of people dying; they were in the middle of a galactic scale civil war of course people were dying! One person can't stop it, so Yoda's advice boils down to making peace with the natural cycle of life.
Kotor is such an amazing piece of writing; the Jedi are framed as complicit in the Mandalorian's slaughter with their unwillingness to act, but in the end they were right to be cautious, there *was* a greater threat in hiding behind Mandalorian atrocities.
But
In their refusal to take action, what greater good, what life were they serving? Both the prequels and kotor delve into moral traps where there is no good answer. I love them.
leaving a community you have spent almost 2 decades in, ever since you were a little boy is a nearly impossible position to take. Not to mention the time his romance with Padme panned out was also the time Clone war started, abandoning the Order at that time would make him see himself a traitor.
Also what is he gonna do outside the Order? Just leeaching off Padme? Jedi training doesn't prepare you for employment. This is like asking somebody just leave their job because they dont like it.
The real question is whether the Jedi Order's non-attachment rule is unproductive. And according to George Lucas, it is. It isnt that Jedi shouldnt get attached, but the key is to know when to let go.
The Old Republic Jedi Order was clearly in the wrong during the Mandalorian War. 1st, this war was much less complicated than the Clone War. The Mandalorian had no unadressed grievance, they were crusading and genociding for land and power. 2nd: Kreia made this argument implicitly, that how do you even hope to know your enemy if you dont engage in practical action with or against them. If the Jedi didnt participate in the war, even just to investigate their concern, then how do they even know what is happening, who is pulling the string, what is their strategy, what is their purpose... 3rd: when we turned to the surviving Jedi Masters in K2, all of them were way off base in their judgement, esp the most ivory tower of them all: Atris. And the 3 Jedi Masters, despite being "cast down", had their mindset so conditioned by the Order they refused to egange with life and saw the truth in front of their eyes.
So while Revan, Exile and co fail in the sense that they caused further harm to the galaxy. If the Order has engaged earlier on, would this have happened? Would Revan's fall happen or even be neccessary? If we take Revan's war as a way to force the Republic to reform, either by beating him or by being conquered by him, then maybe the Order could have stopped this crusade in the first place by joining the war and steered the Republc toward more peaceful reform. And with that the Jedi genocide wouldnt have happened. Bottom line is the Order refused to act whether to uphold galactic peace they lay claim to nor protecting their own intersts, while have all the power and every reasons to.
@@mdd4296 "Jedi training doesn't prepare you for employment." Ahh yes, all that technical training they receive to be able to survive definitely couldn't be turned around for profits, for sure. Not like Ahsoka wasn't shown working in a garage to pay her way or nothin' 🤣🤣
As for the rest of it, we'll just have to agree to disagree friend; they chose to not engage in a conflict occurring outside of Republic space because the vibes were rancid and they weren't sure why, but then a bunch of their young adult members went off to war and died or worse, became monsters. There is no objectively correct answer. That's the joy of the storytelling.
@ane
There is a difference between working in a garage for a short time to pay their way and working a 9/5 job. The way Jedi was trained from childhood, they can barely hold an usual job. Most who left the order, if not falling to the dark side, became hermit and vagabond even b4 the war. They can definitely survive the world, but their life quality nose dive. Anakin also dont hate his current job before being manipulated by Sheev.
But this is just one out of many reasons Anakin wouldnt or shouldnt leave the order he loved just to pursue a life with Padme. The real question is whether the rule was unproductive, and George Lucas said it was. Luke flipped the rule on its head when he created a new order, before that lore was nixed by Disney.
The war didnt occur outside Republic space, the Outer Rim had been Republic space for atleast 10k year before Mandalorian war, when they first fought the Hutt to keep that region. They have fought several wars since then, before Mandalorian. And the Rep had already joined the Mandalorian War before the Jedi.
There is no best answer in the sense that we dont know the best course of action, esp at the time the decision has to be made. However, there is a difference between the bad course, which the Jedi took and a decent one. If you try your best and fail, tough luck, you have my sympathy. If you didnt try anything and claim moral highground because of a "objective correct answer" that has never existed, anywhere. Then nah, you deserve the consequences. It's not like the Jedi was ignorant of what the Mandalorian was doing. Hell, the Mandalorian didnt even bother giving their war a fancy dress. It's not like the Jedi isnt funded and trained to deal with this exact type of crisis.
How does the result prove them wrong? Self-evidence, with the Jedi genocide and further harm upon the galaxy by their ex members. Of course, some Jedis would disagree and go to war, that happens all the time be it in SW or rl. In fact, your very inaction against an unjust war fuelled the youngster's dissatisfaction with you. The youngsters you taught to keep peace and love life in the galaxy. The very least you should do is keeping track of those people, esp knowing how dangerous Jedi can become. A point that K2 wholeheartedly made.
And even if we ignore the result of their uninvolvement, they still did (or more accurately didnt) everything to put themselves on the backfoot 1. They saw that the conflict is rancid. But they didnt bother finding out how it is rancid with facts on the ground. In fact, Revan found out about it after winning the war. The Council would have had the upperhand if they knew that fact the same time as Revan. 2. Leave millions to be killed and annexed by an invading power, empowering that very power. who drew no line in the sand, which can only lead to further galactic destabilisation 3. Didnt do anything to prepare the Republic against such threats until Revan returned and steamrolled them.
@@mdd4296 Lmao you're quite the troll, friend. Have a nice life.
@@MsIvalanetalks out of his ass.
Gets hit with objective facts that oppose his headcanon.
Calls the other guy a troll.
What a loser.
KOTOR 1 and 2 will always be a special experience to me, alongside other games like Planescape: Torment which really dare to ask deep complex questions which have no hard answers, but lots of valid lessons to be learned as they are contemplated regardless.
Kreia is one of my favorite characters in fiction, not because I think she is right or wrong, but because she offers perspective, and in examining a well known situation from a new perspective we can see something entirely new. She breathes fresh new life into Star Wars by her every word and action.
There's a reason why I consider KOTOR and especially the EU better than the films.
Because they are way more expansive, phenomenal world building and expanse to the mythology, tell much more broader stories, characterization, depth and overall good storytelling. There is just not fucking contest.
The simple answer is because they are movies, movies especially live action movies are very limited/restricted on what they can do in terms of storytelling. And this applies to both the original trilogy and the prequels.
It's a shame the Old Republic never got adapted to the big screen!
I love the comparisons you made to real-life ideological struggle. Really, I just love the overall gritty and complex nature of these games, along with the compelling narrative and characters. They are the reasons why the original KotOR is one of my favorite video game stories of all time (alongside The Last of Us Part 1 and Dante's Inferno).
Edit: wording
When I was 11, I picked up KOTOR 2 for my PC because I thought the cover looked cool. When I first played it, barring its bad release and bugs, I played as the perfect light side Jedi, showing borderline faith in the force and to be good no matter what. I remember not liking Kreia, and getting upset at the story for not being like the movies, for rewarding me for going full light side.
I'm 26 now. Kreia while a villain, I find sympathy in, and taught me a valuable lesson: Even ""villains"" can teach you very important life lessons. Kreia, Atton, The Handmaiden (Brianna), Visas, everyone left a huge impression on me when I went back to play this game, about 3 times. Bao Dur alone was a whole highlight to me, being a character I saw in roleplay as a close friend, and one who helped me go through my asexual awakening.
If any of you have not played the KOTOR series and are reading this now? Please, I beg you to first pick up this game as well if you plan to watch this video essay. KOTOR as a series does not only apply as an interesting look into the morality of Star Wars, but one that you can easily self examine and apply to yourself and the world.
The game did such a fantastic job with each of its characters.
You derserve a lot of credit for this! I enjoyed the video, and it was quite educational, but I think you missed a HUGE part of KOTOR and Revan, in the fact that he never fell - he chose the dark side, to be able to fight the Ancient Sith. I think that nuances things even more, and adds a layer that the video never really got to, since it didn't even acknowledged it. This also means that "he became what he sought to destroy" is a flawed assessment
One word, Chris Avellone
Thanks for making this video. Every experience, a lesson. I'm glad I learned this lesson at a younger age
big fan of game analysis!
great video
Extremely well put words, probably the most I agreed watching a video-essay on star wars. People often start philosophizing into things that just arent there in the movies and kotor games, but I believe you got it spot on. The footage was a bit cringe, but I understand it's annoying to make it at all, stayed for the great monologue.
If the KotOR remake actually arrives, and they manage to make it a faithful adaptation of the original for current-gen gaming hardware, it will be a very happy day.
the story for this game is among the best found in any rpg and is easily the best writing in the star wars universe.
100%
Also in my opinion, the idea of a Grey Jedi or "Bendu" is not about the dichotomy of being "both good and evil at the same time" which of course clearly would NOT work. It is about being able to HAVE negative emotions and NOT allow those negative emotions to posses and co-opt you, but instead you can leverage them to positive effect. Lets take some real life examples for this one (minus the space wizard powers, of course :)
The concept of "righteous anger" and taking actions that may require "counter-violence" are not based in any "hatred for your enemy", but instead are based in love and compassion for those whom that enemy is doing harm to. So you are willing to viciously and mercilessly destroy that enemy, not out of revenge, or fear or hatred -- but out of love for those whom you want to keep safe. That is a gray concept, because things like "anger" and any form of "violence" are inherently negative aspects. Yet when leveraged with love and compassion, these otherwise "negative" aspects can be used towards a positive end. And yes, you will suffer trauma if you have to do these sorts of things. But thats where self love and compassion for the self can help you heal those wounds, and allow you to embrace the love and support of others, rather than pushing everyone away as you wallow in suffering and walk down a path of self destruction.
The "Bendu" that we see in Star Wars Rebels illustrates this aspect of "gray" quite well.
Mace Windu apparently had that power with his purple Saber. As did Luke Skywalker in the EU, before he was downgraded to Coward Luke hiding on Green Monster Milk Island. Timothy Zahn wrote Luke as Grand Master of a New Jedi Order
If I hadn't already played both games, numerous times... this video would definitely have convinced me to.
It did convince me to play them once again.
In short, everything is relative. What a revolutionary concept...
You'd be surprised how often folks gotta reminded of that. Idk how to word this delicately, so I'll apologize for those who find it blunt or offensive, but the most popular religions of our world struggle with this concept often. Morality is "owned" by the religious and their various versions of a god, according to their tenants. Whatever the god says, or what the folks that determine what their god has said, goes. Even if it's something we would view as horrendous. The very idea that it's their god's word/decision makes it morally and unequivocally correct. Anyone or anything that goes against this god's words or actions makes it and those doing said thing morally wrong.
The same goes for those that have managed to gather enough power and sway over society in non-religious ways. They are able to push their views and dictate what is right and wrong within their sphere of influence, or at least have the power to impose and push their views on the topic through legislation, bribe, intimidation, etc.
The rich and powerful often get lost in their own power and lose some, if not all, of their ability to relate to those they affect. What is good for them is good, and generally, the folks that complain about their actions are jealous, an enemy, are just trying to bring them down, and are therefore bad.
Obviously, it's not that black and white with either example, and it wouldn't be fair to say that's how it always is. But, without the constant reminder that even if you think you're doing "good" you could be actively harming the world around you, it's not hard to get lost in your own ideals and become unable to self criticize honestly. At least to the point of actually changing behavior and views on wellbeing for the better.
So, this topic is a rather important one. While not new, it's very easily forgotten, and makes a pretty interesting story if applied well.
Oh its a Star Wars story, and one of the greatest besides the original 3. The KOTOR game's stories were once regarded as a testament to the potential of what Star Wars could be when in the hands of people that are truly passionate about Star Wars and its lore. It should've been the new gold standard for all things Star Wars going into the future, this unfortunately was not the case to the dismay of many fans.
KOTOR and in a lesser way KOTOR 2 were really great and made by people, who seemed to care for the IP. It's sad what Disney did to it. The franchise, like so many others is dead by now.