In regards to 4.3, I've notice that the last little bit of prop wash performance comes from "tuning" your dynamic idle. Just tuning PIDs in Betaflight will get you super close but with the right dynamic idle, prop wash is almost non-existent in all normal prop wash inducing movements.
Whenever saturation is present, that seems to be what pushes things over the edge. I wasn't a fan of the new methodology at first, but wow, does it work well.
You know Mark I really appreciate videos like this. It really helps me get a better understanding on different tuning things to look for and how to addresses them. Nice work sir!
And thanks for your videos, Mr Mark. I always loved your analysis, deep, detailed explanations. You are one of the reasons I joined the BF development team a couple of years ago! :)
Thank you so much, I am new using Fettec Alpah, and I was getting crazy prop wash when moving the throttle up, but with your setting, it fixed it all now, the quad Fly amazing smooth.
Love your work Mark. Without guys like you I would not have anywhere near the level of ability and understanding in regards to tuning. Just finished tuning a 6" on 4.3 and it is awesome. I also have a 5" freestyle quad on kiss and I like it. However, there is no way I could have tuned this 6" to fly how it does running kiss. Cheers.
Thanks for the video. Really good one and I am super happy that I tuned FETtec Alpha to almost same state as you did which tells me I did quite a good job. 🤘
Betaflight has had years and many developers and is locked in and on rails. Where as Kiss Ultra and Fettec are new and much fewer developers but they have done a good job so far and no doubt will improve as they mature. It's great to see competition to Betaflight if anything it forces things to get better over all.
You know where i stand when it comes to THESE videos. But, i gotta give it to you.... your BF tune looks really good. Dont let that go to your head.... 😆.
I currently enjoy my 5" Fettec rigs much more than my 5" Betaflight quads when flying tight technical freestyle, but fully recognize the Betaflight rig flies objectively better when looking at logs. I'd be really interest to see how your 4.3 preset may change that calculus.
For how 80% of people fly, the tuned version of all of these would be totally adequate. Throbbles were basically the only thing I cared about with KISS, although a bit of sharpness lost was something I could feel, but I got used to it fast.
This pretty much settles it all! Everything flies great when you tune it, and betaflight has a bit of an edge, which is to be expected when consider it’s longevity!
Aaahhh man you really ruined KISS for me! Eh, best to get the facts out there before pilot’s decide to make a change, myself included. Even I was kinda thinking about getting into the KISS metaverse but your review shined the big spot light onto the issues with it. Thank you for the great review, you did it with honesty and care. At least now the developer’s for KISS will have something to work on to remove the bug’s.
Honestly, this actually makes KISS more attractive for me in some regards - but it's more of a different feel option that I can then try to emulate (because BF has the levers to do that).
Great video!! Really shined some light on kiss ultra, I thought kiss ultra was just the holy grail of fc firmware. Betaflight 4.3 looks amazing 👌 just gotta get mine tuned a bit more
wow betaflight default is good but with the propper master tune is absolutly a beast PD: i use your pressets in bf 4.2.11 and my quad feels amazing... the only thing i move is the stick sensibility because the kwad feel more robotic and want more flowy movements Keep the good work, grettings from Chile
for flowy movements i guess mr Mark can provide a good the solution for you ..maybe by joining his patreon for more private chat with him,,because beta is the pioneer i will bet in they have prepare for many world wide pilot with the same request to be flowy quad..and the preset it just the starting point and must be adjusting according how the pilot want tobe for their own quad
Overfilter the RC inputs. No joke, just go to 4x the default auto_smoothing on RC, and you'll get so much more flowy response. It may not be quite as locked/dialed in some cases, but it really works for making it feel more flowy.
Great job with the testing. Can't wait for that preset! Have been flying legacy KISS for so long I think the loose feel has become ingrained with how I expect a quad to behave, my recent betaflight quad technically flies better with propwash handling etc but it doesn't feel better to fly if that makes sense.
thanks sir.... for sharing info for fettec... because im just bought this new Fc from fettec.. and no one im undterstand how to setting the gain of the fettec.. the factory Gain expo is to big for me..
A couple of times there was a situation when, during sharp roll and pitch rollovers, the quad simply lost control and fell, is this still an alpha firmware bug?
Hi, I wanted to ask if you can help me, I bought a FC Fettec G4 V1.7 I mounted a new drone but I can't fly it. I installed the Firmwar Alpha, as I accelerate a little at full throttle it's also very dangerous, can you help me? By Mauro.
Interesting I'm huge fan of betaflight. I recently just switched to FETtec G4, I honestly think that the kiss ultra tuned was closer to betaflight then FETtec was in the HD video. I'm not sure how they compare blackbox wise with setpoint, correct me if my terminology is wrong but I believe you called it that. It would be really cool to get the low throttle feel from kiss/FETtec mixed with how betaflight stops on a dime on any axis and holds it's position while it's falling and punch outs.
low throttle feel of KISS/FETtec?? No offense to anyone, but is that a quantified thing or just something fanboys make up to have something to hang on to? That's the issue that I see. No science or measurable performance increases in these things. Just hype in too many cases. So from a design standpoint, you cannot code in hype. Not saying you are pushing it, but it's infectious when something like quad feel is so placebo prone.
@@uavtech I'm no fan boy, I was just saying from your video, I found that the kiss ultra tuned flew better then FETtec and Closer to your BF video in my opinion. The only flight controller I have been able to get the low throttle feel from is the lux f7 hd mini. My evoque is on rails. But I still am no pro at tuning. Everything untill now has been high end betaflight quads. I just feel like the bnf good tuned betaflight quads I own are jumpy and the expo is more of a deadband/delay regardless of the black box logs, thats how it feels to me. I was asking more so how to achieve the same low to 30% throttle transition like the g4 stock pids. The lux f7 hd mini johnny fpv was my favorite and still probably is but not on 4.3. I shouldnt say switched but rather enjoyed FETtec g4
@@kennykobi if you want more "mushy" at center stick, increase Expo. Rates are what you want to control feel, not the tune. The tune should be matched the quad's response to stick input (the response drives what you want to tweak for the tune based on sharp stick inputs). From there, you tweak out the rates to get to the desired feel. If you are not using Actual Rates in Betaflight, check them out or of course the KISS Rates as they are in there too for an exact match. Yes, at the time of the test, FETtech firmware was still in Alpha phase and legacy kiss was better. KISS ULTRA is just legacy KISS honestly, nothing new in it except Brake, which doesn't do much when you dig into it. It somewhat helps with i-term winddup so it doesn't cause bouneback, but locks i-Term too late to really be effective.
Am still flying one of your "kiss-approache" on 3.5.7 loving it👌 Might be time to upgrade.. You think my quads would benefit from the 4.3 upgrade? Thanks for your work
For maximum performance, betaflight is the best. Obviously most of the people don't need the maximum performance of the craft, ever, as the biggest limiting factor of the flight performance is the person holding the sticks. And as far as I can tell, a good pilot can fly a shit tune cleanly whereas a shit pilot needs all the help they can get just to stay in the air.
I’ve been flying KISS for years, and your data looks accurate lol. I’ve never been able to control nose dip that well, but I just love the way it flies I guess 🤷♂️
Also, the point that a very limited number of developers on the Ultra and Fettec side are achieving anything that comparably good is honestly impressive.
P-term bounceback you can mostly ONLY hear and "think" you might see. i-Term bounceback is what you clearly see. So if you hear the motors rev twice after a sharp flip or roll, but you don't see it really, that is P-Term bounceback. If you clearly see bounceback in the HD, that is i-Term bounceback. Fettec they look a lot closer. I don't think P has enough authority somehow in the PID Sum or something. Again, ALPHA firmware. But that same things lease to the cross axis bobble too. However with KISS, ULTRA, iNAV, Emu, or Betaflight, what I said above holds very true.
Great video!! Bf keeps pushing to get the best! I just wish they had a better way for decreasing the pids at landing Perching it’s the easiest Any recommendations?
The Fettech reduction of PIDs concept seems like a good approach. Maybe something that turns off Airmode. But right now, put Airmode on a switch. If you deactivate a Mode comes up for it and then you can aet to be active all the time, except if you want to perch, throw the switch. The Fettec trigger concept seems like ok, but hard to not have it hit a false trigger.
Easy. Use pid_at_min_throttle = OFF in CLI. Notice your throttle min value in BF. If properly set it should be 1000. Now make "idle up" on switch in OpenTX so when you flick the switch you have like 1% higher min throttle. Say 1010. Than in BF set stick low treshold to 1005....so when switch is low and your min is 1000 you have no PIDs and you can enjoy smoothest landings ever. When you flick the switch to high and your min is 1010 so above stick low min of 1005 you have full PIDs and full authority...2 warnings: I have also airmode on switch so I turn airmode off and "idle down" before landing. Not sure if this works with airmode permanently on....and never fly with that idle up switch in low position as when you lower throttle to min in air you will lose PIDs and authority and just fall out of sky. Only use it before landing. So arm than flick to high do your flight and before landing back to low.
at 17:25 yess agreed the developer of beta much more idea in improvement matters,, because more brains are better than just using 1 brain, human brain have limitation, that is why beta are not going to die as long as the people keeps flying the beta will keep the improvement among all people problems at their quads.
If you really want to make the editing process painful, you can probably size and overlay the stick trace to superimpose over the GoPro of your actual fingers on the sticks - would either be an awesome addition, or just look intensely stupid.
Fair play Mark! I gave you grief on one of your previous videos for judging Betaflight to be the best without first trying FETTEC or ULTRA, so good on you for validating this time round 👍 I can appreciate from this comparison that Betaflight has clearly come a long way since I moved to KISS/Fettec/ULTRA (about 4 years ago), so once your preset is available, I’ll give Betaflight another go (with and without the preset). Personally I’ve found the best perceivable flight performance when running the FETTEC FC with the FETTEC 45A ESC on regular KISS firmware (not their Alpha build) - might be worth a try if you have any enthusiasm left for it 😂
In regards to 4.3, I've notice that the last little bit of prop wash performance comes from "tuning" your dynamic idle. Just tuning PIDs in Betaflight will get you super close but with the right dynamic idle, prop wash is almost non-existent in all normal prop wash inducing movements.
Yep, I can confirm that. Amazing prop wash handling if tunned corectly.
I second that!
Whenever saturation is present, that seems to be what pushes things over the edge. I wasn't a fan of the new methodology at first, but wow, does it work well.
You know Mark I really appreciate videos like this. It really helps me get a better understanding on different tuning things to look for and how to addresses them. Nice work sir!
And thanks for your videos, Mr Mark. I always loved your analysis, deep, detailed explanations. You are one of the reasons I joined the BF development team a couple of years ago! :)
Really appreciate the time and effort that goes into making this type of video, fantastic work as always.
That throbble handling on Betaflight is so good. Some magic from Ctz.
Nice video!
Thank you so much, I am new using Fettec Alpah, and I was getting crazy prop wash when moving the throttle up, but with your setting, it fixed it all now, the quad Fly amazing smooth.
Fantastic work, Mark! 😃
Thanks a lot for all the tests and comparison!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
YESS! Thanks Mark. All three flew amazing! Great job 👏
Thanks a lot for this video, it cleared a lot of my questions 🙂I think your Betaflight tune looked the best overall....Really nice one ^-^
Love your work Mark. Without guys like you I would not have anywhere near the level of ability and understanding in regards to tuning. Just finished tuning a 6" on 4.3 and it is awesome. I also have a 5" freestyle quad on kiss and I like it. However, there is no way I could have tuned this 6" to fly how it does running kiss. Cheers.
That’s a lot of work Mark and very good comparison between the firmwares. Thanks!
Thanks for the video. Really good one and I am super happy that I tuned FETtec Alpha to almost same state as you did which tells me I did quite a good job. 🤘
Thanks for sticking to the numbers. Great video!
Nice video Mark!
Betaflight has had years and many developers and is locked in and on rails. Where as Kiss Ultra and Fettec are new and much fewer developers but they have done a good job so far and no doubt will improve as they mature. It's great to see competition to Betaflight if anything it forces things to get better over all.
Kiss and fettec new lol
Old kiss is as old as beta flight, if not even older.
Bruh Kiss is old af 😂
BF 4.3 looks crazy good compared to other 2 firmwares as expected. Technical decisions and solutions are on different level in BF. Good job devs 👍🏻
Great work as always, Mark! 👍
great video, really enjoyed the comparison.
Great comparison Mark glad I've stuck with Bf not flown fettec but after tuning both bf feels and looks a more complete experience
You know where i stand when it comes to THESE videos. But, i gotta give it to you.... your BF tune looks really good. Dont let that go to your head.... 😆.
I currently enjoy my 5" Fettec rigs much more than my 5" Betaflight quads when flying tight technical freestyle, but fully recognize the Betaflight rig flies objectively better when looking at logs. I'd be really interest to see how your 4.3 preset may change that calculus.
For how 80% of people fly, the tuned version of all of these would be totally adequate. Throbbles were basically the only thing I cared about with KISS, although a bit of sharpness lost was something I could feel, but I got used to it fast.
This pretty much settles it all! Everything flies great when you tune it, and betaflight has a bit of an edge, which is to be expected when consider it’s longevity!
Aaahhh man you really ruined KISS for me! Eh, best to get the facts out there before pilot’s decide to make a change, myself included. Even I was kinda thinking about getting into the KISS metaverse but your review shined the big spot light onto the issues with it.
Thank you for the great review, you did it with honesty and care. At least now the developer’s for KISS will have something to work on to remove the bug’s.
Honestly, this actually makes KISS more attractive for me in some regards - but it's more of a different feel option that I can then try to emulate (because BF has the levers to do that).
I would like to fly a kiss ultra and have one quad with it but it’s impossible to get one
Great video!! Really shined some light on kiss ultra, I thought kiss ultra was just the holy grail of fc firmware. Betaflight 4.3 looks amazing 👌 just gotta get mine tuned a bit more
wow betaflight default is good but with the propper master tune is absolutly a beast
PD: i use your pressets in bf 4.2.11 and my quad feels amazing... the only thing i move is the stick sensibility because the kwad feel more robotic and want more flowy movements
Keep the good work, grettings from Chile
for flowy movements i guess mr Mark can provide a good the solution for you ..maybe by joining his patreon for more private chat with him,,because beta is the pioneer i will bet in they have prepare for many world wide pilot with the same request to be flowy quad..and the preset it just the starting point and must be adjusting according how the pilot want tobe for their own quad
Overfilter the RC inputs. No joke, just go to 4x the default auto_smoothing on RC, and you'll get so much more flowy response. It may not be quite as locked/dialed in some cases, but it really works for making it feel more flowy.
Great job with the testing. Can't wait for that preset! Have been flying legacy KISS for so long I think the loose feel has become ingrained with how I expect a quad to behave, my recent betaflight quad technically flies better with propwash handling etc but it doesn't feel better to fly if that makes sense.
on 7:45 Mr mark dont want to hurt anybody ,he smoothed the word by saying the "propwash its okaay"...😁
Loves me some BF. Thanks again, Professor!
Nice comparison!
thanks sir.... for sharing info for fettec...
because im just bought this new Fc from fettec..
and no one im undterstand how to setting the gain of the fettec..
the factory Gain expo is to big for me..
Hello, can I solder an external black box to fettec g4 flight controller firmware alpha? To set everything up correctly
I know nothing of kiss etc. I just want to thank all those who give time to betaflight. 4.3 is truly superb. Surely nobody can argue with that.
A couple of times there was a situation when, during sharp roll and pitch rollovers, the quad simply lost control and fell, is this still an alpha firmware bug?
Great job Mark! Whats the best way to get in contact with you? I have questions about doing a custom fork.
Email: spatzengr at yahaoo.com
Definitely intriguing, my work probably has a use case for that which I'm curious about pursuing as well
Thanks for the work, once again ! Was it on purpose that RPM filter was disabled on your screenshot of BF filtering ?
Hi, I wanted to ask if you can help me, I bought a FC Fettec G4 V1.7 I mounted a new drone but I can't fly it.
I installed the Firmwar Alpha, as I accelerate a little at full throttle it's also very dangerous, can you help me? By Mauro.
Thanks Mark. But the question still not open )))) If you shold choose only one - which is better for you? Actually) Thanks for comment.
BF for sure feels sooooo much better. Locked and precise. Smooth, consistent, and sharp all in one.
Interesting I'm huge fan of betaflight. I recently just switched to FETtec G4, I honestly think that the kiss ultra tuned was closer to betaflight then FETtec was in the HD video. I'm not sure how they compare blackbox wise with setpoint, correct me if my terminology is wrong but I believe you called it that. It would be really cool to get the low throttle feel from kiss/FETtec mixed with how betaflight stops on a dime on any axis and holds it's position while it's falling and punch outs.
low throttle feel of KISS/FETtec??
No offense to anyone, but is that a quantified thing or just something fanboys make up to have something to hang on to? That's the issue that I see. No science or measurable performance increases in these things. Just hype in too many cases. So from a design standpoint, you cannot code in hype.
Not saying you are pushing it, but it's infectious when something like quad feel is so placebo prone.
@@uavtech I'm no fan boy, I was just saying from your video, I found that the kiss ultra tuned flew better then FETtec and Closer to your BF video in my opinion. The only flight controller I have been able to get the low throttle feel from is the lux f7 hd mini. My evoque is on rails. But I still am no pro at tuning. Everything untill now has been high end betaflight quads. I just feel like the bnf good tuned betaflight quads I own are jumpy and the expo is more of a deadband/delay regardless of the black box logs, thats how it feels to me. I was asking more so how to achieve the same low to 30% throttle transition like the g4 stock pids. The lux f7 hd mini johnny fpv was my favorite and still probably is but not on 4.3. I shouldnt say switched but rather enjoyed FETtec g4
@@kennykobi if you want more "mushy" at center stick, increase Expo. Rates are what you want to control feel, not the tune. The tune should be matched the quad's response to stick input (the response drives what you want to tweak for the tune based on sharp stick inputs). From there, you tweak out the rates to get to the desired feel. If you are not using Actual Rates in Betaflight, check them out or of course the KISS Rates as they are in there too for an exact match.
Yes, at the time of the test, FETtech firmware was still in Alpha phase and legacy kiss was better. KISS ULTRA is just legacy KISS honestly, nothing new in it except Brake, which doesn't do much when you dig into it. It somewhat helps with i-term winddup so it doesn't cause bouneback, but locks i-Term too late to really be effective.
Am still flying one of your "kiss-approache" on 3.5.7 loving it👌 Might be time to upgrade.. You think my quads would benefit from the 4.3 upgrade? Thanks for your work
Yes
For maximum performance, betaflight is the best. Obviously most of the people don't need the maximum performance of the craft, ever, as the biggest limiting factor of the flight performance is the person holding the sticks. And as far as I can tell, a good pilot can fly a shit tune cleanly whereas a shit pilot needs all the help they can get just to stay in the air.
How can you dare???? .-) 4.3 changed so much. i never used RC versions before, but this RC3 nailed it.
I’ve been flying KISS for years, and your data looks accurate lol. I’ve never been able to control nose dip that well, but I just love the way it flies I guess 🤷♂️
The absolute worst part of these videos is that I end up going home with a homework assignment. I hate you Mark!!!!
Also, the point that a very limited number of developers on the Ultra and Fettec side are achieving anything that comparably good is honestly impressive.
How does one tell the difference between I-term induced bounceback and P-term induced bounceback? how does this manifest when flying?
P-term bounceback you can mostly ONLY hear and "think" you might see. i-Term bounceback is what you clearly see. So if you hear the motors rev twice after a sharp flip or roll, but you don't see it really, that is P-Term bounceback. If you clearly see bounceback in the HD, that is i-Term bounceback.
Fettec they look a lot closer. I don't think P has enough authority somehow in the PID Sum or something. Again, ALPHA firmware. But that same things lease to the cross axis bobble too. However with KISS, ULTRA, iNAV, Emu, or Betaflight, what I said above holds very true.
P-term goes "da-da" and I-term goes 'womp--womp'
Why are there so many videos about a flight controller that Has never been available
Latest hype.
@@uavtech 👍🏼
Chip shortage won't be forever - there will eventually come a time where plentiful and diverse FC's will be a thing once again!!!
Great video!!
Bf keeps pushing to get the best!
I just wish they had a better way for decreasing the pids at landing
Perching it’s the easiest
Any recommendations?
The Fettech reduction of PIDs concept seems like a good approach. Maybe something that turns off Airmode. But right now, put Airmode on a switch. If you deactivate a Mode comes up for it and then you can aet to be active all the time, except if you want to perch, throw the switch.
The Fettec trigger concept seems like ok, but hard to not have it hit a false trigger.
Easy. Use pid_at_min_throttle = OFF in CLI. Notice your throttle min value in BF. If properly set it should be 1000. Now make "idle up" on switch in OpenTX so when you flick the switch you have like 1% higher min throttle. Say 1010. Than in BF set stick low treshold to 1005....so when switch is low and your min is 1000 you have no PIDs and you can enjoy smoothest landings ever. When you flick the switch to high and your min is 1010 so above stick low min of 1005 you have full PIDs and full authority...2 warnings: I have also airmode on switch so I turn airmode off and "idle down" before landing. Not sure if this works with airmode permanently on....and never fly with that idle up switch in low position as when you lower throttle to min in air you will lose PIDs and authority and just fall out of sky. Only use it before landing. So arm than flick to high do your flight and before landing back to low.
Back to Betaflight I have to get my kwad flying that good
Literally the worst part of these videos for me - I end up with a homework assignment
Just missing Emuflight…I’d also like to see them all on stock settings.
Seems to be propwash didn’t necessarily change either. You can even hear it in the footage.
Well, I have some great news about the Emuflight development path.
why does beta flight not ever work for me ….i need presets thank you
4.3 has presets. FINALLY!!
Love BF and its not over priced, haha.
at 17:25 yess agreed the developer of beta much more idea in improvement matters,, because more brains are better than just using 1 brain, human brain have limitation, that is why beta are not going to die as long as the people keeps flying the beta will keep the improvement among all people problems at their quads.
If you really want to make the editing process painful, you can probably size and overlay the stick trace to superimpose over the GoPro of your actual fingers on the sticks - would either be an awesome addition, or just look intensely stupid.
Fair play Mark! I gave you grief on one of your previous videos for judging Betaflight to be the best without first trying FETTEC or ULTRA, so good on you for validating this time round 👍
I can appreciate from this comparison that Betaflight has clearly come a long way since I moved to KISS/Fettec/ULTRA (about 4 years ago), so once your preset is available, I’ll give Betaflight another go (with and without the preset).
Personally I’ve found the best perceivable flight performance when running the FETTEC FC with the FETTEC 45A ESC on regular KISS firmware (not their Alpha build) - might be worth a try if you have any enthusiasm left for it 😂
Tomorrow Buy BetaFlight For Sure,.... this Video Prof BF Better than Kiss and Fettec,...!LOL
ww fettec just souds so rough compared t betaflght
Betaflight 4.3 kakute h7!!
👍👀🇭🇷
Bf is the greatest