Why Fantasy Races RUIN Immersive Roleplaying Games
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- Ranting about why I think Fantasy Races can ruin Immersive Roleplaying Games. How fantasy races are often either not taken seriously at all OR are taken too seriously and impossible to play. By consequence it is also implied why I think human characters are superior.
#tabletopgaming #immersion #dnd5e #ttrpg
I believe what you are saying is the precise reason why people choose to play non human characters. I am not saying you are wrong but it is in essence a paradoxical argument. Also I remember the guy who asked why the aliens in the Star Trek series were all humanoid and the producer asked him if he knew some non humanoid actors looking for work.
badass
As an aside, one of the reasons why I was drawn to Farscape was because of the non-humanoid aliens. I like most of the Star Trek series, but after a while I got more than a little sick of TNG's "Enterprise goes to alien planet no human has gone to before, meets aliens that look like people from Southern California with funny squiggles on their foreheads".
@@kitirena_koneko facts look up Donghua(Chinese animation) the mythical creatures an godlike changed people who feast on spirit beast taming an alchemy food kick so much ass then 8583 races that look like Spock
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 So, it's essentially China's answer to anime? Yeah, Asian folklore and mythologies make some of the stories of Faerie from Europe look downright tame, and if you know anything about the Fair Folk, they AIN'T Tinkerbell!
@@kitirena_koneko Donghua has been around for a long time it rapidly evolved with the last two decades
series sporting varying visual styles one can mimic a painting while another has thread lines through it as it it was woven traditionally on top of being far less scared to hyper parody an meme with there shows
coffin dance has been used for pete sake :3
You know, I think people are being overly harsh in these comments, but I think you're missing something: Narriative importance VS. costuming. Costuming has it's uses.
Just look at Star Trek. The aliens who work on the Enterprise are just humans with weird foreheads. Spok and Warf don't really need to be Vulkan or Klingon, but by putting those costumes on, they're given permission to be characters that test one-note behavior in a huge variety of situations. They'd be criticized for their extreme focus on logic and honor respectively otherwise. Despite that, they also have their "awakening" moments where they code switch into just being regular people if the moment suits it. It's a very stageplay way of doing things.
Is it childish? Maybe, but the majority of people benefit from some childishness.
but but I worked so hard on my tiefling horns
To be fair. Tieflings technically ARE humans. They are just cursed with demonic heritage and blessed with cool horns!
If it's any consolation, I worked hard on my catgirl ears and tail, nyao.
There is a point to this. Modern RPGs incentivize players to view race as a block of benefits rather than a change in the way a character interacts with the world. To make it worse, many of the newer races don’t have a broad enough literary background to provide an example of how to roleplay them.
However, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that playing as a nonhuman race is impossible in an improvisational setting. An underestimated hobbit (Tolkien) and a timeless elf (Frieren, not Tolkien) both stay very close to the core of humanity while possessing a singular characteristic that sets them apart. By rolling back the gameplay differences and possibly incentivizing players to choose human characters, it should be possible to bring these classic perspectives to an immersive fantasy game delivered by players committed to the in-depth roleplay it takes to make it work.
To be clear, I don't think that playing a non human race is impossible. What breaks my immersion is when creators give too much consideration to making fantasy races TOO alien that they essentially make them impossible to play. At that point I don't even know why you'd allow them to be a playable race in the first place.
That is contrasted by the first point where I explain that creators giving no consideration to these fantasy races is just as immersion breaking i.e. Human with pointy ears.
I do think there is a middle ground where you can have a distinct and interesting fantasy race that is able to be roleplayed without having to rely on basic fantasy tropes. Just takes a bit of work both on the creator and the player's side. That is ultimately rare in my experience.
This kind of sounds like a personal and subjective problem you're having. The varied races have never been something that's ruined my sense of immersion.
Everything I say is actually objectively factual. Unfortunate.
@@TrillTheDM I respect the confidence in your reply.
@@TrillTheDM You would fucking HATE Xenofiction. You suck.
@@TrillTheDM Narcissistic much? Grow the fuck up.
I mean, your right, i dont know what its like to live like an elf or a dwarf or even a race thats a bit further outside humans like lizzardfoak. But the thing is, we dont know whats going through the heads of the large majority of living things. I dont know what its like to be a bear, i can only assume that it prioritizes its survival based on how it acts through observation but for all i know, a bear could have a divine nature to it, what does it think about and dream about durring hibernation? Does it have ambitioms and goals behyond my comprehention or does it think about simple things?
As far as i can tell, we havent really tried to look into other animals brains very extensively to see what they're thinking about. We can only guess and i dont think they're devoid of human experience. Fantasy races arent nessesarily either.
Going back to fantasy, I think its hard because you can guess what they're thinking about but you can never truly know but the issue is trying to make an educated guess doesnt nessesarily have to be devoid of human emotion either because lets be honest, most fantasy races are still full of human emotion. If we go back to elves, they're often depicted as isolationist and on a high horse which arent nessesarily emotions "alien" to us. We just dont nessesarily know how those apply to being an elf at all times and im not a pro actor so lord knows if i tried to pull that off id certainly fail but i think there is a certain charm to that as well. We're trying to think behyond what we normally do as humans but cant completely get past human elements because thats kind of been ingrained within us day 1.
However, i dont think all that should be a reason to not play these races even inserious games, i actually think it should be a reason to give them a shot more often.
The problem is even worse if you take into account that it's not just a difference between a bear and a human but with a bear-like race that despite it managed to create a civilization. Without a social/economic structure every fantasy race even if sentient would be pretty much just a quirky animal. Very few settings ever tried to establish those as anything other than "humans with a very strong accent on X aspect" because it's near impossible to imagine that.
@@HontounoShiramizu that's true too, and even when it gives you more details some dms just throw that out to make it easier for roleplay. Take kenku from 5E, for example, according to their lore in MM and if I recall some other book, they can only speak in mimicry(they must mimic other people) and cannot have an original thought. How do you roleplay that? forgetting that their execution method is actually quite creative with (which I still have a hard time believing they came up with that if they can't have original thought) how would you go about playing someone/thing that can only speak in things they've heard in the past while also not being original. What even counts as an original thought?
Anyway, dms(or at least so I've heard) scratch that to make them easier to roleplay but you kind of got rid of what made them unique in the first place.
@@chucklesdeclown8819I think it’s less that kenku can’t have original thoughts and more that their vocal function can’t create typical lingual speech patterns unless they have some preexisting auditory reference, kinda like how some settings make it so changelings don’t have their own facial features and have to adapt them from another person they’ve seen. I’ve seen some interpretations for this limitation not apply it to when they speak auran, which is the default bird/air-based creature language, so kenku _do_ have their own voice and speech patterns when speaking auran, just not other languages.
@@HontounoShiramizu Pathfinder 2E has awakened animals with detailed description on how they work same with awakened items via a recent new heritage for Poppets this is just the tip of the iceberg for how much worldbuilding the team writes
So I watched this and sat with my thoughts on it a little bit and I've come to several conclusions:
1. At this stage in my roleplaying career, someone not playing a particular race/species/kin/whatever exactly as they "should" at all times, is not immersion breaking for me. I am more focused on the overall story, what are the themes we're telling, and how the characters are working together and their interpersonal stories. The fact that someone doesn't roleplay an elf 100% accurate at all times doesn't bother me and if it does ruin immersion for you, that tells me you should figure out why that ruins the immersion.
2. Even if a human player cannot 100% reflect a given race during play, the whole point is the roleplay challenge of it. We are -playing a role-. I am a human commoner all the time in my real life, there's very little challenge to play a human in a fantasy setting. To me, trying to play a Klingon Counselor in a Star Trek game is more interesting than trying to play a human one. I'm currently playing a Lizardfolk Redemption Paladin in a game. The challenge is: how does a Lizardfolk reflect the ideals of the Redemption oath. If I just played a human, I would likely end up playing the stereotypical redemption paladin, with little variation. The challenge of the roleplay comes from the racial choice of a creature that thinks so differently from a human, from myself. THAT is the immersion, that is the challenge.
3. Fantasy and Sci Fi as genres are not supposed to be simulations of environments and situations. At their core, Fantasy and Sci Fi grew out of a desire to tell stories that reflect something about society or the past present and future through an altered lens. Do you need different races to do that? No, but the contrast and differences allowed by it enhance that commentary. Taken to tabletop games, this feels like the same argument of: "Well your roleplay wasn't very convincing to the me, the DM, running this NPC guard, so you have disadvantage on your Persuasion check."
4. Taking this argument to its extreme conclusion, the perspective of something not being able to be reflected accurately all the time breaking immersion means there should also be no magic or other fantastical elements, because those elements aren't reflected in your typical medieval fantasy setting or RPG game. Which turns this into just historical roleplay. Which, if you want to do that, fine, but just know we're talking now about two very different experiences at that point.
All true. I would even argue that in extreme example most modern humans wouldn't even be able to properly roleplay medieval peasants or burghers since the common conceptions of them are mostly either missing (hardly anyone wanted to write about them during medieval times), deliberately distorted (by renaissance authors writing propaganda to criticize previous system) or written by people that had very little in common with them to even begin to understand them.
Unfortunately a lot of your response is built on a straw man representation of what I discussed but I'll respond in good faith.
1. That is your perspective and that's a fine approach to roleplaying. My issue isn't that somebody doesn't roleplay correctly all the time, it's that elves haven't been given the appropriate consideration from the very start, from the player or the creator.
2. I fully agree and this point is made based on the straw man that I think people not roleplaying accurately 100% of the time is a problem. The problem I have is that the majority of the time people aren't even giving the considerations you're giving to your lizard folk character. I also don't agree with your thoughts on human characters and tells me you should figure out why you're so limited in your portrayal of human characters that you'd have to rely on a stereotypical character.
3+ 4. Never said they should be. Nothing about these points addresses anything I said unless you just misunderstood the point of what I was saying.
@@TrillTheDM No, you said that playing fantasy races is breaking immersion for you because people can't play them "correctly" (my understanding of your thoughts). In that same vein, magic aslo breaks immersion, every other fantasy element breaks immersion, and then we can just play "Knights and peasants" (and since the records about peasant life aren't exactly copious, I doubt we can do that either). Me personally, I never play humans in any of my TTRPGs, because making my fantasy/sci fi race (prefering dragonborns and ysokis) different from humans is my own personal challenge and special enjoyment in the game. Do I do it right? I have no idea, as you said, we don't know any ysoky or dragonborn. Do I and my coplayers have enormous amount of fun? Hell yeah, we do. How do I know that? Laughter and year long campaigns.
I cannot say that you are wrong in your oppinions, I can only give you my personal, subjective oppinion that your thoughts are a complete opposite of what a good fantasy game is. And I'm sorry that your playing experience has brought to this video, it certainly hasn't been good.
@@sanja2776 Massive misinterpretation and assumption on your part. Pretty unfortunate.
I clearly state that the vast majority of the time people don't take them seriously and essentially just play them as trope humans with pointy ears. I have an issue with this because at that point they are offering nothing besides vanity and skill points. This is just the majority of the time, not ALL THE TIME.
I then state that when they are given extreme consideration then creators go outside the bounds of what is possible to be played in an improvisational setting.
I think the miscommunication here is in your assumption that I don't think there's somewhere in the middle where fantasy races are given considerable enough attention to be distinct while also not being too difficult to play in an improv setting.
The video is quite literally about the extremes of fantasy races, No Consideration vs Over consideration, maybe down the line I'll talk about how they're great for immersive roleplaying games and where the middle ground is necessary, but this video isn't about that.
@@TrillTheDM I'm sorry, I just don't see it in your video. But as I said, there is no right or wrong side here, just me misinterpreting your thoughts and sticking with my all fantasy races parties 😇
it sounds like you have less of a problem with fantasy races as a concept, and rather the general undetailed unserious implementation of them. there are many races in sci-fi and fantasy that have cultures that only creatures with their features could possibly have, but there's so much to read to understand that that it is fundamentally not going to become too popular or mainstream.
That's exactly it. I also dislike when DMs go too far in the other direction and craft something that is impossible to play but then still allows people to play them. It's always incredibly jarring to me when the DM plays these creatures well (because they've put in a load of work crafting them) only for a player to basically be like a normal person.
Frieren Beyond Journey’s End does a really good job portraying elves and their alien concept of time in a unique way.
I think you can play fantasy races but the problem is the majority of players play them like humans. A elf is not going to be in a hurry to go anywhere when their perception of time is different due to their long lifespan. A human might be in a rush to get to the dungeon in 3 days where an elf might consider 3 months quick. This of course depends on the background of the races involved in the game. In the White Wolf games you have flaws or conditions like blood thirst that the player must consider or risk losing control temporarily of their character. In playing a race other than human one should consider what separates them from humanity or other races and can cause conflict or stress. I would imagine the new modernized DnD likely makes the problem worse as now it aims to make all the races the same with no inherited advantages or disadvantages over other races. They have become humans wearing the skinsuit of another race. I suppose you could always throw in some cultural or religious differences to spice things up. I mean.... you had cannibalistic halflings in Dark Suns.
It's interesting to me that you would put it on the players. To me the players have just been playing what they're told is good roleplay for the races. That and the get along gang expectations of modern play I think stifle player creativity because people don't necessarily separate character from player. Thanks for the thoughts!
@@TrillTheDM Well... It is not all on the players. The DM is responsible for creating and populating the game world. He needs to convey the basics of the most common cultures, religions, and major political powers. For example the worlds of Conan, Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, and Elric of Melnibone are similar for sword and sorcery but they have very different cultures and political powers. It is also good to give a basic history to players such as wars that have occurred between nations and both magical and natural catastrophes that have forged the world. This helps the players roleplay grudges and initial prejudice they might have when meeting other races or even other nations of humans. They can either overcome these or further promote the stereotypes. Sadly, it seems most game worlds today are shallow with all nations and races loving each other in total harmony. My personal preference is a more gritty fantasy world where life isn't fair and make sure that the world constantly reminds them of that fact. However, it makes the rewards for success all the sweeter for the players.
I don't know. The thing is that regardless of your perception of time, things like urgency and difficulty still matter. A grueling 3 day trek through a swamp is a miserable 3 day trek regardless of how long you live. While you may approach somethings differently, like a 5 year prison sentence, most of your adventuring tasks would be similar to how a human would decide. After all, if the orcs are coming to burn your village, does it really matter if you have 10 more years to live or 150? That won't affect your decision to make haste to warn the village.
And in most cases, besides a modified lifespan, nonhuman races in D&D don't tend to be all that different from D&D races. They still have the basic biological needs, and in fact very similar biology. We for instance don't even see little things like "alcohol is very poisonous to elves." We are told dwarves have this close association with the earth, but it isn't really something the rules make us care about. We don't see dwarves with agoraphobia or those that can't get a restful sleep on the second floor of an inn. Elves practice the same kind of magic that humans do. They get the same set of skills. Everything about the mechanics basically tells us they're slightly different humans, with lifespan being the main only difference and even that isn't felt, because despite your starting elf being 100 years old, you don't feel like you've seen or know more than the 17 year old half-orc.
Fantasy races behave like human subcultures because more or less they are.
@@taragnor You make a fair point on the slog through the swamp. Your other points are good too. Right now by the book you are completely correct as the goal of modern D&D has been to make the races the same with no advantages over the other. Part of this is politically motivated in a modern world where people are so easily offended and so race has become something cosmetic and having no meaning. The other part is to simplify the game.
Personally, I think this is a mistake. There is nothing wrong with races being inherently better at some things as long as you balance it out. It is true of real life as a thin long legged person will tend to be a better runner due to stride but would make a terrible horse jockey compared to a short person. Elves typically have been the Mary Sue of DnD in the past. See in the dark, don't sleep, extra dex, immune to sleep and charm, and so forth. I think adding in a large amount of racial feats for each race that aren't all combat focused would be better and then let players select them at start.
Giving a large selection will also allow you to tailor races so some species of elves are different from other elves. Elves that grew up in the desert for example might have a tolerance for heat while elves from the snowy mountains might have a tolerance for cold. I believe Pathfinder does something like this. Then again some might feel this makes the game complicated. As a gamemaster I try to make deeply immersive worlds with various cultures and religions. Some races will be more powerful and that is how it is. If there is country filled with giants then the smaller races might have to combine their armies to defeat them. However, my players are long term and been with me for over 30+ years. Deeply immersive and prepared worlds won't necessarily work for casual players.
@@lionelwhiskerknot I've been mostly playing D&D 3 before switching to Warhammer, and my view of races is quite different to how D&D 5e wants to see them. Back then you had a pretty significant difference in both physiology and psychology between races. Dwarves were naturally better at delving into underground places, while elves were naturally better at trecking under the natural night sky. While everyone could learn the same spells, you had preferences toward specific classes that were implied to be based on the common culture and disposition of that specific race. There were also a lot more non-combat abilities that you got automatically that differentiated characters.
Warhammer takes it even further, having unique starting carrier tables for every race, and giving them distinct cultures and psychology. It is heavily human-focused, but it has both multiple human nations, and multiple dwarf and elf nations. It uses historical references and stereotypes to immerse players and give them an innate understanding on how different nations and cultures think.
It also approaches the typical tropes in a much more grounded and realistic manner. Why do the dwarves and elves hate each other? In generic fantasy they just do. Sometimes it's explained as elves looking down at everyone, and sometimes it's explained by philosophical differences. In Warhammer the elves and dwarves used to be friends, trade and ally with each other. Then a group of dark elves did a false flag operation by attacking a dwarven caravan and pinning the blame on the elven kingdom. The dwarves demanded reparations, but the elves denied them (since it wasn't them and they viewed the whole thing as a farce) and gravely shamed the diplomats. At which point the dwarves declared war and basically threw the elves from the continent at grave losses. This ancient conflict is the source of the enmity that the two feel toward each other.
It does the same with different elf and dwarf races and nations. It also has some truly alien species with unique cultures, in the form of both orks and lizardmen.
But I love my little crow guy... I even studied a little crow behavior to try (and fail) to portray him faithfully 😥
Same with me and my Dragonborn. I use my hands to show how her ear-fans move when she’s happy.
I've always preferred playing the game somewhat casually, so I understand that I'm not really the target audience for the video. I just want to make it more clear that I'm not trying to be really argumentative in any way.
I think one of the things that really draws me into D&D isn't the low magic medieval france aesthetics, it's all of the high magic planar elements around. The eternal Bloood War fought between the Abyss and Nine Hells is absolutely one of my top favorite things about D&D lore. I'm also a really big fan of Orcus because he's by far the most extreme demon lord. All the others want to conquer or cause general mayhem, but Orcus wants to eliminate all life in the universe and turn all of existence into barren wastelands.
Immersing myself into a different species is already kind of hard to fully imagine, but I couldn't really begin to imagine just simply living in a world where it's a real possibility that being on a ship that gets caught in a storm could have me sent straight to the elemental plane of water where I will just die with no escape or enslaved by a Marrid if I'm lucky. We live in a world where gods, ghosts, magic, monsters, or even space aliens, are only stories or mythology with more likely alternate explanations. D&D and other fantasy media exists in a place where a lot of this or all of this is proven to be completely factual.
I absolutely love this stuff about D&D and those are biggest draws for me into the game and the genre, but those things by themselves already makes it hard for me to feel realistically immersed in a realistic way. Before I start thinking about what a Dwarf or a Shifter would be like, I can't help but struggle thinking about what anybody would be like in this environment.
Yeah that's absolutely fine.
As you said this video is targeting a specific audience and a specific style of game while pointing out the pitfalls of fantasy races when applied to that style of game.
I completely agree and I think the more you play the more you rectify the issues that make you struggle to fully buy in and become immersed or engaged.
Appreciate the comment!
It's kinda funny how this argument applies to elves, dwarves, and basically nothing else. Take halflings for instance. Straight up based on early 1900s Englishmen from the countryside. Gnomes are fey, but not like "etherial beauty" fey, just wacky pranksters and craftsmen. And Dragonborn are literally just humans with dragon blood. With a few exceptions (Aasimar come to mind), DnD fantasy races were never meant to be "inhuman" in any real sense. Just humans who look different and have weird powers.
It applies to any fantasy race you choose to include in your game regardless of system.
"And Dragonborn are literally just humans with dragon blood."
There's literally a passage in the 2014 Player's Handbook where a character is surprised to see her [Dragonborn] adoptive father look upon her with the indifference of a dragon. They are 100% intended to be inhuman.
Now I want to write a fantasy world where every race is just a mutation or adaptation of humans
Shadowrun. You welcome
Call of Cthulhu GMs continuously hitting the table upon the realisation they can’t portray beings beyond our comprehension
My problem here isn't that you wanna play highly immersive and serious games, it's that you don't seem to understand that there kinds NEEDS to be a element of fictional bullshittery for the world to work as you want it. For example if you're DMing a encounter with a dragon how would you KNOW what that dragon would do in response to what your players do? Are you a dragon? And if you're going to just say "it's my game my dragon" than what's the point of "immersion". Do you want your players to literally live 20 years as a hermit alchemist before they can play said character immersively? It just seems like you're making mountains out of molehills, and if you players are just THAT bad maybe they don't wanna play serious games.
You seem to have missed the premise of the video. My problem is somewhat with players but mostly with creators.
Creators that don't give their fantasy races any consideration and just run with fantasy races as human + whatever trope stamped on top are bad creators. When fantasy races aren't treated with any kind of respect then why bother with them at all? On the other side of the coin, I don't like creators that give fantasy races extreme consideration and change them into truly alien beings and I don't think they're meant to be played by players at that point.
I've bought in to what the DM has told me about these races. They are truly alien and distinct. Okay that's fine, that part doesn't ruin my immersion. What does is when the creator then allows a player to play one who is then not able to live up to the expectations that the DM set which are high because of the fact these are supposed to be truly alien beings. I can buy in and trust that the creator has a way of RPing these things because they've sat with this material and have crafted it themselves over the course of months or however long.
@@TrillTheDM I say this 100% genuinely: this sounds like a specific personal issue at this point. Like, yeah not everyone is gonna be able to reach a middle ground on either side. Some people are okay with that some aren't, you clearly aren't so it's perfectly fine for you to desire this sort of play. And that is valid.
But also to comment on the who "human with stuff tacked on" thing... Well yeah sometimes that's what they simply are. If someone wants to play a human with pointy ears what's so agregeous about that? Is it "pointless" I guess, but so is EVERY chose you make when designing a character. And if a character wants to take up the task of playing a complete alien character it's there fault for not being able to follow through or the DM's for allowing a race to be played they obviously don't wanna actually DM for.
@@elijahjohnson2055 Yeah it is a specific issue, that's kinda the point of an opinion piece video lol. A lot of people agree with me and some people flat out disagree. That's fine.
That is also a valid approach, but it's not an approach I enjoy. If you don't mind Human + Pointy Ears then that's fine. In the spirit of a serious campaign and setting I have expectations that things should be handled with care. The more things aren't then the more it breaks the immersion in that specific style of campaign for me.
I also completely agree it is both on the player and the DM but IMO more so on the DM for allowing what is meant to be a truly alien creature to be played uncharacteristically by a player. It's fine to have restrictions.
Even if we disagree, I appreciate the thoughts!
@@TrillTheDM sorry if I came off sorta dickish. Could of used more careful language. I don't have much else to add here than that. Good day.
@@TrillTheDMI’m super curious as to an example of the happy middle ground for your preferred style of play with non human species!
I agree broadly. I think in a low fantasy setting like Dragon Age it can be done in a way where like most of these other races are very human and aren't that different but still have very different cultural influences (maybe this is just my love of Origins talking).
One thing I enjoy doing a lot (like you pointed out with vampires and stuff) is having different 'races' occur as a quirk of birth or a transformation later in life. Like a Tiefling is born of human parents but they were born with demonic influence, so they are just a human with horns. That means some physical difference and it changes how people treat them, but they're still a person on the inside. Or like OG Tolkein Orcs being transformed Elves, they were once 'human' but were changed forcefully by someone or something.
This also avoids the weirdness of fantasy race corresponding with real life race. Whenever a piece of media tries to address this its usually a bit corny and stupid because real life race is made up pseudoscience but fantasy race is based in actual for real physical and mental differences.
Oh that is a very good point. However I don't think this is an issue. Fantasy races don't ruin my immersion personally, and I can still take them seriously. I love fantasy, so I can buy a lot of weird and buff, even campy stuff at times. This is a personal thing with me. So I understand if this UA-camr is not completely on board with fantasy races.
The problem with fantasy races isn't an issue. The thing is that real world races have the same problem. If there is a human of color in book, movie or TV show they are likely to fall under one stereotype or another. This is especially true of older media before PC starts to kick in. If a character is Asian, they are likely to be good at academics, martial arts or both. If a character is black, they are likely to be good at sports or rap. If they are Hispanic, they are good at gardening and housekeeping. If they are Jewish, they are good at banking and finances. These trends are problematic. They are inaccurate to the person of color experience. They even dehuminaze such people to just a stereotype. The examples I gave are the relatively tame ones. Heaven forbid if such a stereotype is negative and thus fuels xenophobia and hate crimes. Racism in general is a very complex topic.
There are different kinds of racism ranging from mild to extreme. The more extreme it gets, the easier it is to recognize it as morally wrong. So it is easier to avoid. One can learn to respect other races by going from easy to hard. At the most basic level, one needs to learn to learn that genocide is wrong. Then the next level is where someone learns that displacement and slavery is wrong. Then at the next level one learns that segregation and assimilation is wrong. There are not just a few levels. There are multiple levels in a continuous spectrum. At the most advanced level one learns about really subtle forms of discrimination. Then they learn this is wrong. This gets into "woke" level. This level includes slurs, structural discrimination and microaggresions. Cultural appropriation is perhaps the most subtle. It is the opposite of genocide on the racism spectrum. Stereotypes also go in this woke advanced category. It is very difficult to depict a person of color in media without falling into offensive stereotypes. It takes a lot of effort and research. I have heard of Disney movies using whole advisory boards. They have a race of people which are depicted in the movie. Then they give advice on making the depiction accurate and respectful. This happened with the movie Moana and it's depiction of Polynesians.
Depicting races without stereotyping is difficult. It happens, whether someone uses fantasy races or real races. So one may as well use fantasy races, if they are into that thing. Be aware that fantasy races get coding with real races. There are races coded like people of color. They are traditionally depicted as evil and monstrous. This is an issue with orcs, goblins and dark elves. That is yikes. That is screwed up and a whole other can of worms. Be aware of that.
I think you make some good points there
I haven’t played much role-playing games recently (because tropes), nor hold any ttrpg experience, but I don’t think a fantastical race is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. I see your point about elf, dwarf etc, preconceptions. I agree with that, you’re basically taking a prebuild or picking someone out of a character roster, and that’s boring. To really immerse yourself in a character, you need to own them. Consider: Why does this species live in the woods? Because they’re naturally afraid of large open spaces when their ancestors were preyed upon.
I’m not a fan of the idea: make everyone human. If I start a story and say, here’s a human, you will immediately connect that person to what you know of humans, with our histories and practices. But what if I introduce them and a Bobs. Now that culture is open, you don’t know what is normal of a Bobs. I can make them largely human but cut the offensive concepts and stigmas. Bobs can be a species where discrimination like racism, sexism, and animal farming don’t exist, where those traits are an alien’s concept. That’s not the same as a human making a conscious or moral choice. I don’t make a moral choice to not read your mind, I don’t read your mind because it’s not a concept I can comprehend. This is a species where these traits don’t Exist.
What if I want to play a character with a lot of body fat? If I go human, we imply excessive eating, drinking or laziness. Medical and biological are usually after thoughts. But I don’t want my character to be depicted in that way or considered impossible in an apocalypse setting. So, we make a new species, Bobbs. A species with a naturally high amount of body fat like a seal or hippo. Our Bobbs can still get overweight, but we can’t intrinsically judge them as indulging in excess.
It's okay to give a species a recognisable name like elf, troll etc, so long as you draw from the core characteristics of mythology. Elves and trolls have a massive collection of inspiration to draw from, spanning the globe. Just remember, our expectation is really just one rendition. Or a rendition of a rendition. Imagine your friend had a go at painting the Mona Lisa. Now you paint your friend’s painting. Details get lost when you copy from a copy. Here’s a question: Why should your goblin be green?
Consider what elements of a species you want that a human is not naturally suited for without technology. Burrowing, gliding, charging? Increased leg strength, lung capacity? With a bit of imagination, a fantasy species can offer incredible storytelling potential. Stories that a human can only achieve with deus ex machina technology and/or magic.
:)
Honestly, my thing with this video is that, maybe it's due to my own special cocktail of mental conditions, but I honestly relate more to Elves than I do to Humans in most fantasy settings. Some bits are missing like I'm not super in touch with nature but like. Time passes me by very often, which I'm sure an elf can relate to due to their concept of human years being more akin to a month for us. Then there's my lack of mutual understanding with other people, I can't read people and they have a hard time reading me. I'm hyper specialized, as an Elf would be if they're not in a hurry to do anything other than what they already want to do. I live a very quiet and secluded life and feel bombarded by the changes in society and have barely gotten finished processing what I'm having in my coffee. I also have sensitive eyes and ears, like elves do. The difference is mine are a hinderance in the modern era, full of technology and lights.
Elves aren't necessarily aloof, but they seem aloof, they have different social cues, different expressions of emotion, and I inherently tend to relate to them better than I do other humans in fantasy.
Arguably, one could say I should just play a Half Elf so that full Elves can be an even higher extreme than I experience in these symptoms, and I could give them that. I simply wanted to post this to say that Elves even when given traits that would seem impossible to empathize with, can still fit into someone's lived experience, sometimes better than a human character.
Also to add to this, many of these fantasy races aren't necessarily made to be truly alien, they're meant to be representations of human questions, anxieties and facets. This is because of their Mythological Routes which often exist as a way to answer Why to questions that humans couldn't possibly understand back then.
Given how the average human in the medieval times had a life expectancy of about 30 years,
It makes perfect sense some of us would relate more to our knife eared kin that the humans living a life our grandparents grandparents grandparents might find outdated but nostalgic.
@@An_Ian Honestly I'm not even to my 30s and I still relate closer to elves lol.
@@LordofGoblins12 Im 27 and I relate to non humans more in fiction as a rule
My favorite way to respond to anti-humans is "imagine lacking such creativity that you need to rely on a fantasy race to tell a good story."
For playable "fantasy" races, I think Shadowrun does it best. They are all humans, well meta-humans at least. There is no long lasting deep lore of the elves, because elves have only been around a handful of generations, depending on which part of Shadowrun you're using. So like VtM, the situation revolves around people who are distinctly different from humans, but who have human grandparents, and the struggle to fit within a rapidly changing world.
Yeah there are definitely some systems that do it better. The video title and stuff is a bit clickbaity admittedly lmao but I do think the discussion is important. I've always liked Shadowrun and I think you're right on the money as to why. Appreciate the insight!
@@TrillTheDM I largely agree with you that most generic eruopean middle ages fantasy settings (D&D, Warhammer, et cetera) do it poorly. In my current campaign, players are restricted from adult elves. They can play a young elf, as elves send their youth out into the world, not to return until they understand _why_ the elves do not interfere with the affairs of mortals. This process starts around age 20, and can take upwards of 80 years, though most elves return within 40. They also must keep their heritage carefully secret from society at large. This lets players be their usual weird selves without implying anything about adult elves.
For their part, adult elves look on humans much like humans look on Octopi: they are super smart, super resourceful, and it's a real shame they only live 3 years.
@@yellingintothewind I quite like this, as my main problem with elves (and other long lived races) in D&D is age. It just doesn't make sens to me to have a character still be as incompetent as level 1 characters if they have several decades of experience (unless they are particularly untalented / lazy but then how do they suddenly grow at a neck-breaking pace once the campaign starts ?).
I agree wholeheartedly! I have seen both extremes: folk who choose the race for its bonuses only and carry on like a human with pointy ears, and those who lean into the race but play it as a farcical stereotype. Those who actually engage in a thoughtful, consistent embodiment of an alien species have never graced my table... and I know I couldn't do it either. Ha!
I don't entirely disagree. This is why I think Fantasy Races should be have some roleplay focus, over just mechanical.
For instance, Tieflings are supposed to be stealthy, yet monstrous demon children shunned from society, but usually they're some of the most common races and these traits don't actually impact roleplay.
What if Tiefling needed to kill people in order to appear more human? This allows for roleplay choices.
A more evil character could use this often to disguise themself and stealthily blend into human society. Knowing this, distrust against Tieflings is justifiable, since their very presence invokes the possibility of murder and paranoia.
A more virtuous tiefling character would refrain from their power, but ironically retain a more demonic appearance. Therefore, they would be outing themself as a potential and legitimate danger to humans, while also physically demonstrating their virtue to those less ignorant.
I'm trying to build a setting where every race has some version of this. An ability that, regardless of culture, affects the way they can interact with other characters and with society.
This video reminded me about how i handled races in my fantasy setting
In my setting there are humans and monsters, however, every human is born with the magical genes of a type of monster
So for example, elves in my world are humans with the magical genes of fairies
im glad you mentioned world of darkness games being an outlier in this problem. Because that was the main thing I was thinking about during the first half of the video, lol.
I actually agree. In a lot of dnd tables, picking different races seem to barely matter.
Whereas if you pick a different "race" in a world of darkness game, the vibe completely changes, and it has a massive impact on how your character reacts to things, what they value, what their goals are etc. Each different splat has different mechanics and powers, different cultures etc. That's just something im really missing with medieval fantasy games like dnd.
Dnd also has the problem of alignment. Where X race is always X alignment. I think that's boring and really doesn't leave much room for creativity or individuality. I prefer to stay away from black and white good vs evil, and like some more in depth stuff.
So basically... you dislike that nonhuman races are too human when roleplaying them.
But the problem with that reasoning, is that all playable D&D races have the same mind as a human- except Kenku. What distinguishes them is pretty much only physical and cultural differences, or different circumstances of life due to some misconception about their life by other people (Aasimars seen as perfect angels despite being very much capable of evil, or tieflings seen as literal satan despite being very capable of good)
I think, despite your arguable points mentioned here, that you are skating over a lot of nuance and references.
There are definitely a lot of throwaway memes in fantasy RPG but mythology can serve as a very useful tool to facilitate non-human portrayal. Mythology has literally developed over eons in an effort for humans to view human life in a different way and to try to see the understand how a being with such a view might relate to humans. It’s a potential lever for players to use to portray their own characters, it isn’t inherently disruptive to the experience had in the game.
Setting a high standard for these portrayals may inhibit non-human role play but I, honestly, see this as a somewhat elitist view. In early DnD (Chainmail, etc), didn’t allow players to play “Elves” due to many things you cite here (and the advantage in play they would consequently have), but ”half elves” were introduced as a bridge to such play (Tolkien also had half elves described in the Silmarillion, and Tolkien was specifically emulated in early DnD due to the life and detail he breathed into his world and non-human characters).
If you want a literary, high fantasy reality, you will have to dictate it as the DM to players. If they are “playing wrong”, you have to confront them with your world’s reality as they do so. Modern science fiction does this all the time. It is a real effort but it isn’t impossible. The question is, “Is that what players want?”.
“You can’t have elves and dwarves because they’re to hard to play and you will mess them up.” Isn’t an attractive or liberating or even attractive game approach.
Scientists struggle to day with the same issues you have here with believably imagining truly different alien life. We always can only work with what we have. The attempt to imagine and present can be as rewarding as actually finding them. We’re creating new mythologies and it’s why we remember our old ones for so long.
You might read some of Larry Niven’s novels featuring the Pierson’s Puppeteers or his collaboration with Jerry Pournelle in the “Motey” series (The Mote in God’s Eye and The Gripping Hand) or the outstanding and far too unknown science fiction novel, Embassytown by fantasy writer China Miellville. All of these deal with portraying genuine, “aliens” and are examples perfectly adaptable to RPG world creations.
It just takes a lot of work but, more importantly, compromise to allow players to make the effort.
Yeah that's fine, I'll take the elitist stance. Fantasy tropes are tired and incredibly immersion breaking when it comes to serious roleplaying games. I'm not talking about "just act in character" I'm talking about truly immersive campaigns where the players are essentially method acting. The tropes are fine when it comes to casual normal games, I am talking about a specific type of game that I'd say the majority of hobbyists do not ever engage with.
The mythology argument is interesting and I don't necessarily disagree with you there. Obviously all of these things were created by humans and are products of the human mind with human limitations. However even within mythology there are a ton of gaps to fill before you get to a roleplaying table. The issue I have is that modern fantasy has filled those gaps with things that are to me inconsistent with human experience or perspective.
I think there is a large gap between tired tropes and completely alien though and we can work on that part to create more fulfilling experiences but as of now I have yet to see it within tabletop gaming and I'm not sure many players want to do that work in the first place. A large part of the video if you read between the lines is a critique against the modern tropes. How many DMs these days are lazy and essentially portray other species as humans from a different culture. I think we're ready to go past that.
I agree it takes a lot of work, I don't necessarily agree that it's on the DM. I think if you have taken the time and effort to truly try and create something that is completely unique that is divorced from modern fantasy tropes then you shouldn't have to compromise. The player should put in the work and if they can't or don't want to, you are perfectly fine with disallowing.
Either way even if we disagree, I appreciate your comment and thoughts!
@@TrillTheDM Method acting, as you describe it, is incredibly difficult to portray for non-human species, because of the naturally different physiology that they would have. This is its natural limitation. You can't play a bear with method acting very well, not because humans don't know how bears think, but because humans are not quadrupedal killing machines. With different biology you have an incredible number of things that you wouldn't even think of, and if you are made aware of, would probably find difficult to remember and apply all of the time. Players have enough problems remembering what equipment they are carrying. I don't expect them to remember every detail of Kenku biology (never mind most of it isn't ever referenced in the books either, so how would they even become aware of it) and try to apply them all at once to how they act.
This is fake right? How are humans supposed to know how elves or dwarves actually behave? When was the last time you spoke to an elf??
I'm sure you have difficulty answering the breakfast question. Unfortunate.
I tend to think of different fantasy races as an allegory for how ancient and medieval peoples saw other ethnic groups. Something similar, but alien to their own group.
In that sense, it starts to be understandable that they would just have one culture, because the same ethnic group tends to have the same culture with only minor variance.
Besides, the game is about escapism, and some of us want to escape from being human, if only for a few hours
You can play a fictional character race as a serious character.
"Human but" applies to all fictional races...
I play the humans every time because the human condition really speaks to me plus as think they are pretty cool
Fantasy races annoy me when I'm world building. I get too obsesses over details about how they were created, what their distinct culture would look like over thousands of years and way too many other extraneous details that woulo be solved if I just reduced them to "elves are long lived and wise"
Great stuff. On point. I lean away from your POV on the issue of “stereotypes,” however (as distinct from caricature). RPGs aren’t novels, nor epic TV series or film franchises where layered characters are written by master writers and embodied by veteran actors. A Stereotype dwarf PC who reveres ale like holy water, has a consistent enough Scottish brogue, a gruff demeanor, a passion for underground architecture and veins of gold and mithral isn’t insufficient- it’s fantastic. Players come to fantasy not to subvert the tropes, but - to use your word - to be *immersed* in them and embody them. “Originality” is overrated, and often misses the mark and muddies the unity of genre. That said…I hear you regarding immersion., and at my own tables, I strongly urge (and sometimes demand) that players only play fantasy races that they physically resemble IRL. Had a 4’11” bald bearded actor with a round belly, a swagger, and could do a Scottish accent at my table and it was magnificent. The players don’t see what you imagine, nor what you describe, no matter how hard they “flex their imaginations” - they see what lands on their IRL retinas. It works, IME. And, to your points, this dwarf character had much more to him than just the tropes - he also had history and layers and depth, but the *tropes* and *stereotype* supported immersion for all, and did not steer us toward caricature.
Players come to these stories simply to have an adventure however they see fit, regardless of tropes. Everyone has their own way to play, their own story to tell. For those who want to immerse themselves in words reminiscent of classic fantasy stories, that's their right, and if they want to make stories that either subvert or expand upon those classic tropes, that is something that should also be encouraged.
Neither side should be seen as superior to the other, but simply one saying or emphasizing something the other doesn't. As long as there is depth, nuance and enjoyment, there isn't a problem.
Tropes and stereotypes are an essential starting point for characterization. Without them we wouldn't have an idea how we should act or what is important in a particular race/species culture. It's thanks to them that we can establish a character and then expand upon them. Otherwise, we would default to playing a human with funny ears. I have a gnome character right now that I play as the stereotypical quirky inventor. I overanalyze things, go on short rants that veer off in weird directions, and generally use stream of consciousness to portray the way she thinks. Is that all she is? Of course not. She has changed significantly over the course of the game. But it gives her grounding and a springboard. Without the stereotype, I wouldn't have this foundation, and she wouldn't be nearly as fun or distinct.
I've read multiple comics with non-human characters, and while some go into extensive detail about how the physiology of a different species or race influences them, others mostly ignore it and just put in occasional references, or none at all. I prefer the first kind, but I do not begrudge the ones that are not interested in that level of detail.
I agree but only in part: In my homebrew setting and system there are human "subspecies" influences or sometimes intermixing with other species which *aren't* playable (such as giants, or dragons, or angels) but ultimately all players have that human foundation in them.
This also allows those other species to be much more alien even if I do keep stuff like lifespans and such recogniseable to be able to relate to them as characters better.
To be quite honest, I can see the arguments is valid. But I think I do not fully agree either. To me, when you play on a fantasy setting where fantastic creatures live, such as elfs or dwarfs exist, I think it is pretty valid to play as those races. Yes, it is hard to RP those creatures since we do not have real life examples, but, it is a nice challenge of roleplay those creatures to the player to see how it can be done. Not to mentioning in a gameplay point in tabletop, it is interesting what kind of abilities and powers those races have to offer.
And also the aesthetic choices too. Races who can deviate of human nature in terms of appearance, such as the Conrasu from Pathfinder. And some of them because of their nature of certain elements, can be used as compelling storytelling, like the Tieflings with infernal nature, the racism they suffer. Or the half-elves, who live between the world of human and elf's, but never completely belong to either. Fantastic races may break immersion, but they can be used as incredible tools for storytelling.
Of course, not all storytellers might used at fullest potential, but required practice. Besides, between choosing a human or a exotic race, I prefer the exotic race.
Personally, I think it is less productive to tell people that they shouldn't do something because you have a bunch of reasons it could be bad, and more productive to discuss the ways that people who do want to do this sort of thing can do it better. Personally, I think the thing that makes a non-human character good is basically the same as what makes a human character good: personality and motivation. Finding ways to conceptualize how their experiences as their particular type of non-human race might have shaped those traits is work that can be done to enhance that foundation, but ultimately, even if people don't do that work and just chose their race for aesthetic reasons, those basics will get you further than 95% of players. To be fair, though, I feel like the bigger issue is that people get caught up on enjoyment of the aesthetics, and forget to do that part.
Edit: Also, as an admission, I don't think I have ever been in or seen a campaign that I would consider "immersive," though I have experienced some that eventually convinced me to take their stakes fairly seriously, mostly by contrasting those moments with others that are significantly less serious.
I think this is a player problem rather than a roleplay game problem. I personally have seen some very interesting takes on dwarves and elves that would not be able to be portrayed by humans. For example, I once played a dwarf artificer who was a cartographer and used his strange dwarf technology to map out the depths of the world. The DM Said that humans and dwarves had only recently come into serious contact. So, my dwarf's king sent him above-ground to create maps of the above-ground areas to better understand the human lands. He joined a party doing so, because he was struggling to use the same equipment and techniques that would work in mines for above-ground mapping. I also delved into the psychology of a dwarf trying to figure out races other than his and played him to intentionally misunderstand jokes and other phrases. It was a blast and my dwarf grew to cherish the party and to develop not just his mapping skills, but his social skills with the outside races.
@@Justjustinp It's a player and DM problem. A lot of players and a lot of DMs do not give any consideration to the fantasy races they include in their settings, or very little. Then on the opposite side you have people that do too much and end up with something that can't be accurately portrayed.
Interesting vid, thanks! I do get this idea that you're asking too much of the players though... at the end of the day, the game isn't about deep evolutionary psychology meditations; that's more the task of a novel. In D&D the players want something *exotic* to their own experience. They want to be a barbarian, or a crusading warrior-saint. Or... an elf. Every player is going to have a different level of immersion into his character, and channel the differences to a greater or lesser extent. It seems wrong to tell them not to, just because they aren't great at it. In my own experience, non-human races are played *mostly* as reskinned humans, but every so often a player surprises you. Maybe the elf is aghast that a precious *child* is suffering or in poverty. Maybe the dwarf is aghast at the notion of people *giving* presents with no exchange of value. These little moments add a lot to the game, sez I.
Side-note... you should do a video diving deeper into what elf/dwarf/turtle psychology might be like. I betcha there *will* be a lot of commonality with humans in the end. Emotions like fear, jealousy, and anger are survival traits after all. Above all I want to see a conversation about child-rearing between an elf, a lizard person, and an orc. They'll probably all leave the discussion feeling like the other two are creepy and evil.
@@hoi-polloi1863 Appreciate the comment.
It may be the case that I'm asking too much from other players but at the same time the video is speaking in the context of a serious character immersive campaign so it is a specific setting where one would expect more.
In a normal game setting, everybody takes it at their own pace and that's perfectly fine, I enjoy those games as well it's just a different kind of enjoyment.
I don’t disagree with your opinion entirely, but I think it comes down to how your players engage with your lore. Most of my players will look at my fantasy race and instead of just making a stereotype based on their race, they make a character that is exceptional. I’ve always found that letting players innovate can be both fun and a good way to help add to your lore. That’s just my opinion.
You basically ignored the one thing that gives life to all good and bad stories: suspension of disbelief. Immersion does not equal realism, and you absolutely can be immersed in a game or story with unreal aspects to it.
I haven't, I've actually addressed that already. What I dislike is bad roleplaying and shallow races for the sake of vanity and statistics.
That isn't to say EVERYTHING is like this but in the hobby this tends to be the case the vast majority of the time and if that is the case then why bother with fantasy races at all. Seems like you missed the point of the video and jumped to make a comment just because you disagreed with the premise. Unfortunate.
So, non-human races in RPGs aren't "special" enough for you? That's cool. Stick with all human campaigns, then.
Absolutely.
7:50 and thats what Shadowrun did
Not enough Shadowrun in our ttrpg community.
On a more serious note. I'd mainly disagree because it's the stories and characters that truly immerse us in the experience. Not the characterizations per se. It's like people that say "I don't feel represented" . I can only speak for myself, but I've never had a problem getting into a character, admiring them or recognizing myself in them just because of the race or sexuality. This seems to be a flavor of that.
To me, the main appeal of playing as fantasy races is that their associated tropes and imagery feel a lot more inspiring when making characters than simply picking a human. Not that humans can't be inspiring if their in-game cultures are already well developed, one of my favourite PCs is a magic obsessed human with no magical abilities, who's a bastard child of a noble house associated with magic and elven culture. A lot about how she acts is influenced by the existing culture she comes from and how she feels alienated from it, which is helped by the culture already being well defined in the setting.
But if the setting hasn't already developed these human cultures, then I don't feel like anything about the human really inspires me outside whatever I pick for my lv1 feat. But with the fantasy races, there's something I can latch to even before the game starts. My first character was a half-elf rogue, with the tension inherent in her heritage drawing me in and inspiring her backstory. Even if a human character could explore the same idea of being born of both high and low blood, I like having a visual elements that shows her mixed heritage, like the smaller pointy ears and a face that may look human to elves, or elvish to humans
Yeah that's fine.
I've said it a few times but I do want to be clear, I don't think fantasy races are bad, the video is just about when they break my personal immersion. The thing that I've found though is that most people don't even give the considerations you're talking about when making characters. Whether that be the players or the GM when crafting these races for their homebrew settings.
If most people don’t take the time to think about how their character is affected by their race and background beyond surface level traits, then I think that’s really sad. There’s so much potential for characterisation that’s lost when players don’t think about how societies see their race and how they respond to that
I watched this ready to argue but I actually really liked the video. I do agree that humanoid races are boring, but I would argue that monstrous races have alot more potential for good role play.
I really enjoy role-playing the cultural or psychological differences between my monstrous character and the rest of the party. I enjoy role-playing my character as someone who is completely isolated in every way from the rest of the party. I like playing a character who might be liked, but will never be relatable. No matter how close I get with the rest of the party as comrades, I will always be alone. That is what makes fantasy races special to me!
Appreciate you giving it a chance!
I don't dislike fantasy races at all. I just heavily dislike them in a certain context and certain executions of them. Just tends to be the case those are the most often way they're portrayed lol.
I think the issue I've ran into is less characters playing elves and dwarves like humans, as they usually play them in a very tolkein inspired way which I'm fine with, and more of how I've had parties I'm trying to have a serious game with roll up a kobold, a goblin, a tiefling, and lizard folk. Essentially two were races that make up the most common low level enemies they'll face, one is a cannibal, and one is a half demon, with only one player making a dwarf or something semi-normal. And when i told them they won't be well received as they'd likely be seen as enemies based on their races being associated with raiders, cannibals, murderers, bandits, etc. they got kinda upset thinking that wasn't right and they all expected to be treated like humans by medieval peasants who live in constant fear of those races
Furthermore, those options usually go unmissed when not presented as a drop-down menu choice at Char-Gen... I was teaching an after-school club and we used D&D for the first semester's campaign, so we had all but one player choose some exotic fantasy race because it was prompted. Second semester came and we started a new campaign using an OSR system (which did have races but we skipped that bit since it didn't change the mechanics). When I realized two sessions in that they were all human and loving it, I asked if any of them wanted to ret-con that they were a fantasy race. Only one (the youngest player) said they felt any desire to reimagine their character as a tiefling.
Anecdotal, sure... but it shows that race in a TTRPG doesn't matter that much when it comes to immersion and enjoyment. (And it's the immature who would insist otherwise. LOL!)
Cool experience. I agree, I think fantasy races should be offered to provide a unique and distinct experience when roleplaying rather than the same type of experience you would have regardless of your chosen race.
This is great. I'm so glad this video was made. It's always been a diifficult opinion and concept for me to convey to others without being labeled a "hater". You worded it perfectly.
@@Bardicaggravation LMAO well there's no shortage of it in the comments.
Appreciate it though, I figured it was the kinda topic where you either got it or didn't. Thankfully it seems like there's a lot out there that do get it.
@@TrillTheDM Yes, and that also gave me hope - to see that many people feel this way.
The dwarf paladin, Glamroc, does not agree with your words.
INCREDIBLE video, Trill. You articulated quite well what I've felt for a long time but didn't quite have fleshed out in my head.
I honestly think this is why Dark Sun was my favorite D&D setting. From the outset, the non-human races felt TRULY different, almost alien. The authors did a great job of rooting them into the game world physiologically, which made their PSYCHOLOGY truly feel like a thing apart. One thing that helped was the fact that both halflings and thri-kreen would - quite regularly - eat other species, although for somewhat different reasons. The kreen were utilitarian about their food choices, while the halflings found mystical and ecological significance in the act. That right there made "normal' go right out the window.
Then you had the dwarven focus, which was a weapons-grade, steroid-buffed hyperfixation that made them almost completely unrelatable. The same went for the elves and the way their physiology created a culture where only the runners survived. Everyone else was left behind to let the desert take them.
Those are all oversimplifications, but even little details like that can make a world of difference, if rooted in a race's biology and leading to a mindset so far out of the norm that you wouldn't mistake it for human.
Now, getting your players to bring that into role-play at the table? Another story, and one I don't have the answer for.
Appreciate it!
Dark Sun is a great call out as something that takes the traditional fantasy races but delivers them differently in terms of play. One of my favorite settings as well.
Yeah I'm not sure we can ever do anything to make our players BUY INTO Roleplaying. It's one of those things where I feel you're either interested in it or not. The only thing we can do is filter for what we'd like to see at the table.
When i think of fantasy races, i think of them like how the adeptus astartes are (warhammer 40k space marines). The way i see them is that they need more than just a different human culture, but one that is extremely isolated within their own society... Think about how different your typical christian is to an ascetic monk who has abandoned all material wealth for the sake pf pursuing god.
Or like how philosophers think soo differently to the regular greek people who are bound to their city states. A race isn't just a human with a different skin but a being soo different from the norm as to almost appear alien, but ultimately if studied they can be comprehended.
I agree. With dwarves and elves especially, characters can end up feeling almost like a racist caricature of a fictional ethnicity. A group of people who are basically human but aren't, who are defined by a collection of tropes/stereotypes and by their biological difference to humans is just exactly a racist's idea of the races they're racist against. Your options are: actual human, human but defined fundamentally by a few racial characteristics, or creature so alien it becomes unrelatable and unplayable.
I think there is a balance and I think you can have fantasy races that are more than just human defined by a few racial characteristics. I just think most people don't give that kind of consideration.
I’m currently running a serious immersive campaign about traveling through the plague torn lands of a fallen empire. The custom setting I run has various monsterous races with their own origins and general cultures and my players have been invested in both the plot and the races and my players love seeing the differences between their characters cultures and biology. From my experience it’s not that you can’t make them immersive it’s that it’s simply harder. They way I’ve found is to make weird and wild races yes but to also go into how their biology and organs function differently, what gods made them and for what purposes, and lastly how those things and location would effect their creation.
Example: the Vurychi are a race of chimera like rat things with a very hunched and emaciated appearance. They’re only none vestigial or reproductive organs are in the rib age and above meaning they can be cut in half and crawl off to ambush you later. This leads to them often being careless and other races thinking that they are some kind of undead. Because of a conflict they had to mass migrate to city barges out on the oceans and without any land to get recourses like wood or ways to grow most crops they have created a culture centered around using everything that they can find. They waste nothing to the point of eating their own dead and using bones to reinforce structures and skin tho make clothes further demonizing them to the other races.
Their was an amazing bit of roll play I had with one of my players that came from a culture of dwarves that held respecting the dead and their ancestors as a sacred tenant having a dispute with a Vurychi npc over how to deal a dead comrade. The dwarf posited that they should be put to rest in a tomb while the Vurychi said that as the dead man was always practical it would honor them more to make sure they have use in death rather than rotting in a stone box like some cursed object to be hidden away.
Addendum: you say you have issues with other races acting like humans. I think it is not as hard to believe to sentient creatures might develop a kind of intelligence closer to each other through convergent evolution or who knows a God because it’s fantasy that’s stuff happens. God can create races or other stuff. If the fact that two different creatures would develop a similar way of thinking breaks you from your immersion why doesn’t magic it’s infinitely more immersion, breaking and unrealistic from the sounds of it. You don’t want to play a fantasy RPG you want to play an RPG that reenact the middle ages with no magic no other races just humans there’s nothing wrong with that, but if you’re going to fantasy for that you’re going to the wrong place.
This is unfortunately a straw man argument. I just don't see the point of varied races if they only boil down to being human + trope.
The real point of the video is calling out that the vast majority of creators and DMs tend to slide right into the old tropes. If you're going to do that then why are you bothering with fantasy races at all. If those fantasy races do not offer something that is unique and different to your setting then why do they exist altogether?
That is immersion breaking for me. I've bought in that there's magic, dragons and all sorts of stuff but when I'm looking to join a serious role-playing game the thing that's drawing me out of immersion is knowing that the person I'm interacting with is just a human with pointy ears that is only that because the bonuses it gives on their character sheet.
I'm writing a campaign that have a grain of salt of racism in the lore. Plus many point of view in each races and factions.
Writing lore is really hard to get by, because you need like 1 motnh to figure which is the most prominent
and which is tossed on the side like nothing. Because lets be real, racism is a very good conflict
and not something to take either lightly or ignored from.
It add depth and when things are well made for a serious playthrough. Well. It goes great.
Plus conflict need depth and a moral dilemma.
bro this just sounds like you need to stop playing 5e, play something else old-school
I play AD&D 1e RAW. As well as many other games bud.
When writing fantasy races for a game/book/etc. You have 2 options: make fewer but very detailed races, or make a lot of less detailed races. LotR and VtM went for the first option. DnD-esque games for the second option. You can't have 30 hyper-detailed cultures in a single fictional setting, that would take a tremendous amount of work. Besides, DnD is not a good fit for "serious" role-play you are looking for. (unless you heavily homebrew a more limited but focused setting)
I agree, this video reflects my view of fantasy races quite literally. The same is with science fiction with races being monocultural.
The level of dedication needed to properly represent them is it not done by everyone and it is hardly appreciated. The truth is that in the Roleplaying context people just want to fake a Scottish accent and call it a day.
I personally stopped expecting serious Roleplaying, and in my worlds "fantasy" races are more like mutated humans. It satisfies the player's need for aesthetical differences, while keeping the core of the characters close to human.
I the end I satisfy my curiosity for deeper alien interpretations with anime. They either go ham highlighting the absurdity of shallow interpretations like konosuba, or the deep exploration of the alien nature, like in frieren
@@jacugo I wouldn't put it all on the players personally. I think there's also quite a lack of creativity from DMs in the hobby these days.
Serious games are also not for everybody which is also fine. A lot of people just wanna have fun and kick back with their friends. Same hobby just different preferences.
@@TrillTheDM yeah like sports. There are people that want to reach the highest potential while others want a good workout with their friends. They are both valid ways to use the sport it is just that in Roleplaying. That clear division is blurred if not, almost impossible to visualize.
If the problem is immersion, and hear me out on this, you can READ the lore of the races. I can't speak for every table top RPG, but games like Shadow Run and especially D&D have material to read to you can immerse yourself in the world and character. The point of a ROLE PLAYING GAME is to play a character that is not you and enjoy a fantastical world that is not our own.
@@dannycurtis3575 Yes, players can do this. Even DMs can do this. The problem imo is that they mostly don't.
@@TrillTheDM So "Throw the baby out with the bath water" than? In your video your making the broad sweeping generalization that Fantasy Races are pointless as they are just humans with some miner exaggerated characteristics or to extremely dissimilar from humans to accurately portray by a player because their culture is to foreign. Their core difference is stat changes and unique abilities to differentiate them rather than the lore and physical aesthetic that is provided in games like D&D. It's the "White people can't enjoy Boondocks because they are not Black" argument, or more accurately "Your not that X, so you can't fully comprehend what it is like to be X".
The main thing that makes any media Immersive is the ability to relate to the characters personality and struggles through the conflicts of the story. Any player, new or old, is going to use generalities and surface layer distinctions of a race when they play. New players will rely on them more so as they haven't played a TTRPG before. They need a bit of a crutch to get into character and learn how they affect the world around them vs. someone who has been playing for the past 10 years. The best way to get someone new into character, is to have someone go through the basics and get them to do the reading. In my experience, the only people who don't do the reading are people who are not going to stick around for the long run or not get fully invested into the story. If it's a completely original setting, than it is on the GM to ensure all players are well informed going into the game.
DEPTH comes from a players backstory & actions in the world, not just the color of their skin or if they have horns or not. What makes up a Dwarfs back story is likely to be different from a Humans because they are culturally and society different, even if your not playing D&D. If everyone is playing an Elf aloof and indifferent to the world at your table, than there is a problem at the table, because each Race comes from it's own society with connecting cultures and in every society there are diverse distinctions amongst it's people. A Human can still empathize with an a Dwarf who lost their family to a Dragon attack, because fundamentally everyone is still getting the human experience if the GM has a well thought out campaign.
I agree with you when it comes to wacky species like Minotaurs, Centaurs, Goblins, or the like- but I think Dwarves, Elves, and Orcs have been humanized enough to be taken seriously.
I don't disagree, my issue is that most people are too lazy to even do that which is the bare minimum imo. If you advertise that you've got a serious homebrew setting for instance, I come in with some pretty high expectations. If it then turns out that your fantasy races are just copy paste human culture + a costume then it's quite jarring for me and I question why you'd have fantasy races at all in that case. There are other people though that go hard line in the opposite direction, to me that is just as bad because they give you something that cannot be portrayed accurately.
@@TrillTheDM True originality is nearly impossible, and a lot of these races are just expected of any given fantasy setting- the reality is you are correct, unless you're willing to spend years thinking and fleshing out your fantasy species you will never be able to come up with something that matches the depth of a real culture.
You mentioned new vampires... What about the ancient and jaded ones? They, too, become VERY tropish and capable of causing the same sort of ruin you paint other species with in other settings. I remember hearing stories of a vampiric viscount who entertained and had human slaves brought in, chained in groups of six for people to feed on, calling them six packs... In the end, Fantasy is about escaping our world to be entertained by a shared imagining. Like playing cops n robbers or cowboys n indians as children. I do not believe in binary worlds where all things are one or the other. We don't live in monochrome. We live in HD. Our escapisms are much the same.
To be fair I also have this issue with people attempting to portray ancient vampires. The reason I brought up V:TR and V:TM is because the majority of the time people tend to play new vampires.
I don't have any disagreements with your statements on fantasy and escapism. I'm strictly speaking about the part of the hobby that does these things badly. Where people don't roleplay well and where creators and DMs rely on tired tropes to portray these things that imo do deserve more consideration.
Unfortunately this is a very large part of the hobby, obviously it doesn't apply to EVERYTHING.
I LOVE B3ING HUMAN RAHHH
They don't. In my opinion. But that is just my opinion. I am mostly playing fantasy games. It is hard not to expect them to be unrealistic.
There is of course nothing wrong with human-centered games, but I'm not sure most gamers realistically portray humans either, and I'm not sure they should. A person would be an idiot to charge a dragon with a sword or fly a small one-man fighter at a space station the size of a moon. But that is good drama and good fun and that is why we do that stuff in games. It is fun because it is unreal.
Maybe I'm the problem because I just don't want to play Lawyers and Layovers the game where you sit in an office padding your billables or wait in an airport for the plane that has been delayed. Realism isn't a positive in gaming from my perspective.
Nothing that I said is in disagreement with the point you made here. It seems you have misunderstood the video and fabricated some version of what I said in your response.
@@TrillTheDM Maybe I did misunderstand. I like fantasy races and I don't think people realistically roleplay humans most of the time. I thought you were saying something different. Of course, I was only explaining what I like.
@@savethefantasticfour292 I like them too. What I dislike and what personally ruins my immersion is when they're only treated as a cosmetic skin and a set of stats on a character sheet.
At that point I have a hard time understanding why you'd bother with them at all in a serious roleplay context. Basically I just want people to give them the appropriate consideration and stop using tropes as a crutch for roleplaying them.
Appreciate the comment!
@@TrillTheDM So basically, your problem is with either the writers or the players not spending time thinking about how the stats in the game should be reflected in the behavior of the character.
@@krinkrin5982 That's one part of it sure. I think the overall issue that I have is that people just rely on old tropes in their portrayal of these things.
Instead of looking at your system or setting or whatever and asking yourself "what do these additional races provide that humans don't, why do they matter" they're just kinda lumped in together. To me at that point in a SERIOUS roleplaying game it breaks my immersion because these things don't have any real point to them narratively and they don't add value to the actual setting or campaign. They don't provide a different perspective other than a skin and a set of stats that is largely ignored.
I also used the qualifier that not EVERYTHING is like this just that the vast majority is which I feel is true even in games or campaigns that market themselves as "serious roleplaying"
We give human emotions and actions to non-human characters because that is what our interpretation of sentience IS. -To be human.
To act like someone is roleplaying "wrong" or not taking the game seriously because they're assigning human traits to an elf is a fundamentally flawed argument based on stereotype.
Elves don't exist. They can act as human or non-human as we want them to, and because they don't exist there's no right or wrong way to portray them.
If someone acting human while roleplaying an elf is immersion-breaking for you, maybe consider why you expect them to act in a particular way in the first place? Are you sure you're not the one stereotyping?
A person can take a game seriously and still be a shit roleplayer. Personal level of investment doesn't dictate how well they portray a character.
Immersion breaks for me when a fantasy race is included in a setting or game but not given any consideration to differentiate it from a human. If you don't have a problem with that, that's fine lol keep playing everything just as a human. To me that's just shit RP.
@@TrillTheDM My point is that you have no basis to call it "shit rp" when the thing people are RPing doesn't exist in the first place. Who are you to decide how non-existent races should or should not be roleplayed?
It's just a weak argument.
@@ToaofAnarchy19 I am the ultimate decider. If playing stereotypical boring fantasy races is your thing then by all means lol enjoy yourself. If you don't have the ability to comprehend what stereotypical fantasy races means then that's your own personal limitation.
I'm not making an argument whether or not you should do something. I'm stating an opinion and how it affects my experience. To me human culture + fantasy race = bad. To me fantasy race so alien it is unable to be roleplayed = bad. Pretty simple.
@@TrillTheDM You can argue that lazily assigning a human culture to a fantasy race with few alterations is bad world building and I'd generally agree with that.
The weak part of your argument is the assumption that elves and dwarves and the like should not have human traits or act "human".
They're fictional sentient beings, they can act and be roleplayed however we want and letting that break your immersion is entirely on you.
@@ToaofAnarchy19 Nothing about the video is an argument to convince you of anything. I'm talking about things I dislike.
I didn't say that they shouldn't have any human traits. I said they shouldn't be indistinguishable from humans aside from their visual appearance. You seem to have forgotten that I have issues with creators that make them too alien and impossible to roleplay.
Fantasy races imo should be roleplayed to the expectation that the setting or DM creates for them.
At the end it's all opinions bud, this video is just about my opinions. I don't care how you play. Cool convo regardless!
Fuck, this man said my thoughts in a way better way than I ever good.
I have actually straight up abandoned the whole 'species/race' thing in my D&D games. The different 'races' are just forms of human due to the fantasy/scifi world or created by humans and as such, would have very similar experiences.
Eberron for example. Shifters = Human with lycanthropic traits who struggle with that inner beast. Warforged = Machines/golems built by humans who now tackle the 'I think and therefor I am' machine vibe. Khalastar = Humans who have bonded spiritually with a dream spirit. Tieflings = Humans with demonic power in their veins. Etc etc.
I typically don't allow those mega exotic races in my games due to the same problem I have. If the player really wants to try and understand the full nature of a more exotic race like the undying Arenal Elf in Eberron. Then they can try.
This little niche is actually a lot why I enjoy the World of Darkness so much. All the different 'creatures' you play as were at one-point, human. Vampire, Werewolf, Wraith, Hunter or even Demon (where you play as a demon and human merged into one)
My problem with all this is how 5e just decided that everything ever needed to be a player race, with stupid flavorless pointless races like Dragonborn that exist for the sole purpose of shutting up the idiot who wants to play a dragon and their lore can be summed up as "honorable, likes family" means that players have nothing to work with but some insanely vague and stereotyped culture specific (since it is often lost on some worldbuilders that perhaps non-humans can also have different cultures). A dragonborn has no real difference between itself and a lizardman, except that the dragonborn has a useless breath weapon and some tangential relation to dragons. Which of course meant there was enough of a difference to allow lizardmen as playable in the eyes of someone that would rather play a big dumb lizard guy instead of a honorable dragon guy.
It's a problem that casual (and by consequence of the hobby expanding over time, most) players would rather have more shallow options than fewer deeper options. I mean, DND has been struggling to define what makes gnomes distinct from dwarves and halflings (which already should probably just be one racial option) since the beginning, and half-elves existing wears down the difference between elves and humans, and in a way that could be interesting if it was a unique case and not just the option of "Human but fantasy". So the needless quantity of races was a problem from the start, the hobby's growth only exacerbated the issue.
I think on an individual basis for races you also see this, where mainstream fantasy (and by consequence DND) has been seriously trending just making the monstrous races like orcs and gobos funny green people with funny teeth, which basically takes all the interesting racial motivations or themes you could play with and three-pointers them into the trash. I think the classic dwarves and elves are in many ways defined by them still being fundamentally human and relatable, which is what distinguishes them from classic orcs and gobos on a thematic level, and also allows for players to take more of a "human, but..." approach to their character. The lack of relatability is also the first step a race makes towards becoming a monstrous race, which is also why I rue the entire cultural movement of recent years to just whitewash every race in DND, since it just further loses any real differentiation between the different creatures of the world. Essentially, modern pop culture wearing orcs down from "destructive/evil warrior race of big strong ugly people" into "green people with funny teeth" shows why all the different races of RPGs have been approaching reskins of humans; it's not just politics (though that does stick out in the whole "whitewashing monsters" thing) but also casual players probably don't want to play a different race in the sense of actually cognitively grappling with that concept, they'd just prefer something relatable and easy that also offers obvious flavor, since many don't have or are insecure about their ability to write and play a character.
For more serious players, it's an issue of not only stereotypes defining roleplay too much (which is avoidable, but def requires some experience, additional work, and close cooperation with the DM if you are playing as a custom race) but also the deeper separations, such as lifespan, home environ, and of course their degree of "Humanness" being worn away.
P.S. Also, Arcanum (light spoiler) is a CRPG that handles this pretty well by just making all of the major races naturally or magically evolved from early humans, which means the whole "RPG stat variation" makes more sense. Also, the game does make a point that the lifespans of some of the races VERY heavily affect their worldview. I think that serves your argument more however, since the player does have pretty limited (though still existent) options to interact with those differing worldviews.
P.S.S. As one final point, while I am generally against half-races, they could work really well in the sort of setting you're describing, since they would offer the players a much more achievable level of character roleplaying, while still remaining distinct in feel from humans. The main problem is that their half-status might motivate people to just play to more of a stereotyped view of the given non-human parent and excuse their inconsistences as "well they're still humanish" which is just lazy. I'd say it's worth a shot.
Pathfinder 2e solves all of this they have insane detail in options an flavor
the recent book has so much new stuff all with some bones for you to base your character on if you want to
I have a plant child born from a Peach traveling with a rotting eldritch horror child who live with Frog people an a worm invested Robot
Ancestries mentioned in order Leshy, Fleshwarp, Tripkee and Automation
this is just one faction of my world
fuk being standard
@@senritsujumpsuit6021 These are indeed very alien in concept, but how does that reflect in the actual play? What are the specific traits of the Leshy that make them different than mammals and how does that influence the way they act and live their lives?
@@krinkrin5982 this is there society paragraph on the free archive site Archives of Nethys
To most leshies, the concept of family is not a matter of birth, but rather determined by bonds of loyalty and friendship. Leshies are dedicated allies, but they have little tolerance for those who would despoil nature. As much as they are happy to accept someone who earns their trust into their family, they expect family members to look out for them and their natural wards in return.
Leshies are grouped into categories akin to ethnicities, but these are not connected to physical features; rather, they represent broad categories of characteristics of their spirits. Certain spirits are more likely to gravitate toward particular physical bodies, though this predisposition is far from absolute. Leshies' genders are determined by the spirits that inhabit their bodies. Some leshies are exclusively male or female, while many consider themselves both. Others, particularly fungus leshies, tend toward far more complex expressions of gender, or eschew the concept entirely. Leshies choose and change their names multiple times throughout their lives.
There's many Heritages to chose thst can be explored in the character builder titled Pathbuilder the Peach child is the one I mentioned at the start which is from the newest expansion
I don't mind non human races in the game, but I prefer they remain as npc oddities. I have trouble finding people able to pretend to be elf or dwarf adequately.
Yeah I think depending on the type of game you run this is very much the case. Obviously in this video I'm speaking about a very specific type of campaign.
I've always liked the idea of certain fantasy races only being NPCs. That way at the very least if you've given them deep thought and have changed them in all sorts of ways, you're not asking the players try to carry that burden in their portrayal.
If I'm not having pointy ears I cannot enter a fantasy game :)))
And speaking of vampires and elves, what do you make of vampire elves like my boy Astarion? ❤❤❤
Great piece!!!
Okay but it IS a GAME.
We are PLAYING to have FUN.
And fun is subjective.
Part of the reason I enjoy DnD5e's lack of overarching concrete lore is that elves aren't REQUIRED to live forever, halflings aren't REQUIRED to be barefoot burrowers, humans aren't REQUIRED to be the majority species, etc.
As a DM, my homebrew setting can be as cosmopolitan as I want, and this includes a more universal cultural experience across the available species for player characters.
Which to me is a major power fantasy, especially in the face of reality being so unequal and unjust across cultural lines.
Boring.
Okay, let's be real here. You ain't going to understand what it's like as a human either since you didn't grow up in this fantasy world with the experiences that come with it. You don't have the same common sense as growing up and living in another world, even as just a human. The only thing what would be the same understanding is the functionality of your body, and that's it. Your minds thought process and common sense would be totally different then in our "world".
This same kind of logic of nothing being able to play a different race would also apply to anything you haven't done in real life. If you don't understand how to be a mage in the real world, why would you be a mage in a fake rp if you don't know how act like a mage, didn't go to school as a mage, or grow up with magic. This can even apply to the real world skills too, why pretend to be a person that knows how to ride a horse, if you've never ridden a horse before. Is that also immersion breaking?
If you are insisting that people RPing can be done badly... congrats. You just realized acting is a skill. Let people practice it so they get better at it. Don't encourage them to minimize it unless it's actually a problem.
I simply disagree because you are implying human differences between one another can be roleplayed simply because we as humans can resonate with their thoughts and it's "believable". I'm not a 300 pounds of muscles man or kill monsters and loot dungeons for a living, by your logic I shouldn't be able to roleplay because I can't embody the true thought process of a barbarian.
The moment you play as somebody else other than yourself in a different time period/fantasy setting you throw your point out of the window. You could argue it's more immersive but at that point I'd say I'd just roll with my imagination as hey... you are already doing it.
The rest of your point is literally just bad roleplay on the players' part, race of their character is not relevant.
Nothing you said applies to anything I said in the video other than the bad RP part.
In the video I state what breaks my immersion is when DMs don't give fantasy races the appropriate considerations and they're treated as tropes or when they do but then make them completely impossible to play by going too alien with it.
Nobody said you can't play a 300 pound muscle man. A more fair comparison would be saying if you played a 300 lb barbarian completely like a trope with no deeper character consideration it would be immersion breaking OR if the creator of the setting said that Barbarians had this completely alien feature about them that would be impossible to RP.
Either way appreciate the comment even if it's uninformed.
@@TrillTheDM Hence why I said it's mostly bad roleplay you are complaining about, when said race is well written and the player knows what they are doing, it's nothing but a pet peeve.
Also applies to the barbarian, how do we define what's a trope and what is not? What if the moment a player tries to not be a stereotype I complain because "it's not immersive" or "that's not how a barbarian would act?"
Your point could be easily applied to any character, not just fantasy races
@@maboilaurence8227 Except the video is not about well written races. It is about the extremes where they are not given any consideration at all and played like stereotypical trope archetypes which for me is immersion breaking, maybe not you idc, or when the creator has set the precedent that they are truly alien and impossible to RP.
The fact that you're trying to hop around like "well we don't know what is a stereotype or not" just tells me you're not arguing in good faith.
@@TrillTheDM I'm just saying if you're not complaining about well written and well established races, you are complaing about bad apples, which is something that could easily be applied to a human character, I really don't get it.
And before you ask, I've played d&d twice and both times I've played as a male human, I just disagree with your point.
@@maboilaurence8227
I'm complaining about the instances where fantasy races might be immersion breaking. It doesn't go deeper than that.
The fact you think it's just a few bad apples already shows you're pretty misinformed. The issue with stereotypical trope play is a big one because a lot of hobbyists are bad role-players. The other more alien issue is less common because a lot of DMs will never give that level of consideration to the races in their games in the first place.
At the end of this conversation it feels as if this comes down to how you personally interpret sentience or sapience (I always confuse these two words, So bear with me)
I think the fact that a well fleshed out fantasy or sci-fi species feels "human" is good.
Human, is our only look at sentience, we stand alone. Every intelligent species therefore must anchor itself in what we can understandably interpret as "intelligent" and by extension "human". Modern cultural ideas have pulled fantasy and sci-fi species even further in this direction with the pressure to insist that no species can be "evil" by default, and the push to move away from more sensitive issues in our fiction. This means serious differences in psychological condition, and world view become even more difficult to use and enjoy without some looney on reddit insisting you're "pro-slavery" or something.
The difference is that you've looked at the stereotypes of these species as "surface level" at least based on what you say in this video and chosen to only look at them ON a surface level.
A lot of casual world building does this too, but it doesn't have to. The WHY of a surface level trait can be deeply linked to a cultural identity, a shared experience of the species, or some unique challenge or advantage of their physiology. This would take that surface level trait, and deepen its reason for being. It can be a telltale preview of the more complex importance of something.
I do agree that the vast majority of fantasy races end up: Greek humans, but they look like turtles... or Vampires, but they're vikings... and build japanese style ricepaper and wood castles.
which bothers me to no end. I think THIS worldbuilding is what primarily has led you to your current outlook. The species don't have their own culture, they're just clearly derived from a few obvious real world cultures.
Fantasy authors and creatives of the past, no matter how outlandish invented their own cultures, they didn't just cut and paste our cultures onto a new model.
I am creating a world called shackle's of Aer'Haemmer, and while many of the original concepts start out with a cutlural analog in our history, time and effort is put in to determine how the culture would change and grow based on the worlds history and the gods, monsters, magic and other influences present in the world. Often people forget that our societal identities are an outcome of our history, and that placing those things in another world who's history bears no similarities is just jarring.
It is not a failing of fantasy species as a concept, nor in my opinion a limitation of human thought, but rather a failing on the part of worldbuilders to take the time to truly flesh out and create believable reasons to justify unique traits, to create unique views, to sit and ponder how the different factors might shape a species world view and culture, AND a failing on the part of consumer/players, who skip dialogue, skip cutscenes, don't know the difference between lose and loose, and can't pay attention long enough to watch a tik-tok reel.
Why would anyone take the time to create real art? real history? real differences? when the consumers are so vapid and brain fried they'll never engage with it?
*also, your video "embrace the strange" was excellent, and I have subscribed.
Yeah you're mostly correct.
I'm not saying fantasy races are bad by any means, I'm merely talking about when they break me out of immersion. When they're lazily handled & copy paste human culture + costume or when they're so overly detailed that it's impossible for anybody to portray because from my subjective experience that's the vast majority of what I've run into.
As a member of a long-standing halfling lineage, I find this deeply offensive.
What if there were rules that applied to the condition of being an elf/dwarf/whatever, which by taking into account, encouraged you to react along those lines? They would have to represent a very deep difference in life condition.
That's an approach but I personally try to stay away from rules that force roleplay. I'd rather just have an invested player that's aware of the distinct nature of the races I've crafted that does their best to portray them appropriately.
Nyxads are a short and lithe race of Shadow Aspected Nymphoids with a communal driven culture focused around collaboration and harmony. they are smart, quick, fast, perceptive and curious. having childlike curiosity and sense of wonder neck deep into adulthood, but also tempering it with common sense gained from experience, a practical and utilitarian race who sees art and science, as two halves of the same whole. they value exploration, and learning, and their goddess of science, is also a goddess of art. they see in darkness and blend into shadows like a chameleon. being an offshoot of the sylph. but yeah, you could replace nyxads with human gothlolis with the same traits. but nyxad warfare is defined by 2 things, speed, and information. but yeah, you could make them a subculture of human with its own evolutionary traits, and not much would change about them. but so what? that is every fantasy race. the human culture that best describes nyxads, would be Starfleet.
Reading this, I would put more thought into how their described biology (as little of it as there is) influences the way they act and their cultures. How does the natural chameleon ability influence their life? How did it use to influence them in their history? If they are lithe and short, does that mean they used to be a prey species? Or a predator? A scavenger? A combination? How did that influence their way of thinking and culture? Does their natural curiosity stem from having to know every inch of their surroundings in case of a life-or-death situation (like for rodents), or is it coming from something else? Were they short in relation to other animal species of their home environment, or are they actually taller than average, and only short in relation to humans?
These are the questions I want to immediately ask but the people writing these descriptions almost never provide answers for.
@@krinkrin5982 they were essentially pack based glucosivores. adapted for life in dark and narrow spaces. adapted for speed and manueverability, but because bigger things were a danger to them, thier curiosity came from a desire to know what is safe, and thier collaborative nature came from needing other species to compensate thier weaknesses.
That’s why when I add races to my worlds, it’s either humans and one other very unique race that’s still based on some human culture but has trait that heavily affects their culture like communicating using various light wavelengths or have to deal with a blood borne disease from humans. Or have only diverse human like race to make further distance this world from our world. Soo yeah do agree with you bud and cool video.
What about Fantasy races where they are all humans but with varying degrees of curses that show their ancestral alignment to ancient gods?
@@HighShepherdLopes Sounds pretty cool to me!
what you think about adding non human races as non playable that act in completely different ways ?
Perfectly fine, I think it's a great alternative. It allows you the creator the ability to portray these things in your setting as you wish without putting expectations on the players and limiting them to only play in the way you expect these races or species to act in game.
@@TrillTheDMOkay but if your argument is: "they break immersion when players do it because they can't possibly understand how these races would act in a serious setting" aren't you being immersion breaking by attempting to act out what YOU think the race would do? And if you're going to argue that it's the DM's game they can do what they want... Then what's the point of it being the whole "serious setting" thing?
@@elijahjohnson2055 This is a ridiculous response. My response is about giving the DM the benefit of the doubt that the work they've put into making these truly alien and distinct fantasy races allows them the best insight into playing them as they see fit and representing them appropriately in the game and for their setting.
If I make the Elves in my setting truly fantastical or strange to the point where I have major hang ups with how they act and respond to things but then let a player play one who is never going to be able to live up to those expectations, it kinda throws a wrench in the whole experience and makes you wonder why I'd allow players to play them at all.
Based take.
As to immersive art mediums, you should give !good! Larps a try.
I can only speak to the Czech scene, which often leans into very grounded settings with very high costuming standards and minimalistic mechanics, but once you play something like Legion, or Knights Song, (both of which are international and fully in English, look them up), roleplaying in a tabletop game loses a lot of it's immersion. It's on a completely new level.
That being said, from what I have seen of Western larping, tabletop would be my preferred option too.
Even in a full human most of what you say stay true.
Bad characterisation of culture different from your own, showing other humans society as a bunch of extreme trait and jokes.
Imagine being a muslim or christian or an atheist when you are not this? for most people is often represented by extreme trait too.
If you apply your idea to human why not play just a human of your own culture belief and skin color?
if there is no problem for full human badly characterised if you explore the when who and why? then why would there be problem with non humans? except pure alien beeing made of energy or something they have many trait that link the races of fantasy together:
-they sleep
-they eat
-they believe
-they live in a society
-they tend to hope for a better future
In fact any races will always have more in common than differences since we can only use our experience as a base for it so they are usually push to the extreme to make it not too human, not too normal.
Also vampire you describe are your way of seeing/playing vampire many dont see the monster in them that much. do they need to drink blood yes! do they need to kil l? depends on the universe but usually no! there is a reason a humanity/sanity/alignment system is put there.
the difference between a vampire and a human vs a human and an elf are mostly the same.
what a vampire if not a more powerfull human that burn in the sun and need blood?
Complains about some fantasy races' cultures being too human. Also complains about other fantasy races' cultures being too alien??
Yes.
1:11 I mean, that's not really problem with the races in themselves I'd say. Just think back to the meme you added not long before in the video showing all these human cultures, what distinguishes them? Physically they barely have any distinction, it's all geographical and historical, which in turn has a major influence on culture and technology. No the problem isn't the fantasy races it's a poor use of them.
1:34 you can say the same thing about any person with a sufficiently different lived experience from our own, like, you know, a fantasy character. Unless all of your characters are intimidately connected and based on your own personality, or else simplified to very one-note elements you're going to run into that problem.
3:03 Again, an issue with execution not an inherent flaw of races. It should also be noted that there is an inherent limit to what you can portray in a single character in a short span of time and I don't think you'll see this problem nearly as much if you cross it over several characters of that species with any degree of length to actually explore the character. You'll see more nuance where nuance has room to breathe, especially because in this case you do need to establish more general character traits first because you are introducing a character with an alien experience. Also exaggeration and using simplified traits is a hallmark of character writing in more general terms, and subletly with those is a question of experience and not of what you're portraying.
4:00 Shared traits and characteristics that are common to a species doesn't mean the character lacks depth or other traits. Again, you're kind of just speaking as if the person portraying the character is so utterly inexperienced or incompetent that they can't develop their character beyond whatever is the baseline of the species.
4:10 Using the characteristics of the race =/= reducing them. And the alternative is to actually just use humans which given the argument seems to be wanting something different from human would logically lead to the idea that humans would be the worst choice as they lack even those stereotypes.
4:25 This is a concept called "metaphor". We the players are human. To some extent the characters are going to reflect human experiences. But that's pretty much the origin of supernatural races - for the most part they reflect humanity or the world around it in relation to humanity. I guess you might go for the later but that applies to a much more select set of races. The real question is always whether what you're portraying is JUST a purely human experience of it's highlighting and exploring part of it through the traits of a fantasy race.
5:20 Gotta disagree there. Believability and tropes aren't mutually exclusive and indeed there is a reason any trope is a trope and that is often precisely because it works. The key of course is that you gotta drop this false dichotomy between making fantasy races these incredibly alien and unrecognizable things with a level of complexity you can't even portray humans with if examined honestly, and just slapping together a bunch of stereotypes, saying everyone in that culture is that and exclusively that, and then either only making characters that are reduced to that or which basically ignore it. You seem to be failing to acknowledge that common characteristics can be shared within a culture (especially ones with inherent tendencies) and those characteristics can be explored and portrayed with nuance without seeking to make a complete departure from humanity.
5:53 Just pointing out that is essentially what I said about 4.25
6:32 Great, now do that but replace tension and contrasts with something else, like a life lived in a secluded place, boom you have the workable beginnings of an elf character given it's racial characteristics.
6:40 ..... Surely you're not implying that fantasy games taking place in a medieval setting is a problem specific to non-human races. Like you do understand that is also a human society? Or if you don't consider it on that in that case that problem is absolutely not exclusive to non-human races?
7:43 They do matter. They may require some more thought in many circumstances, but you can portray them about as easily as a character whose personality differs from your own, which itself also requires work to think through how the character would interact with the world.
7:57 When you're not playing a comedy scifi game.
8:08 Very well. Here's my final thoughts: The problems with your position are threefold. First, you're being reductive. I don't doubt this is coming from your experiences, but I think your experiences are skewed here and player issue not a race issue. All of the things you pointed out are a problem EXCLUSIVELY if the player (and likely the GM) is actively making the character and the race a set of unexplored stereotypes and not developing the character further. Alternatively you're demanding that a race can only be creatively explored and unique if it departs from recognizable similarities to humanity into some arbitrary standard of alien-ness and you can't immerse yourself unless the full breath of that is apparent even without a long period to showcase it (as everything).
Second, you're applying some serious double standards. Everything you said here could, by essentially the same logic, be applied to every human character. Why? Because human characters also live in the fantasy world and also think differently from you. Sure it may not be they think differently because of their species, but a person can have vastly different standards of values and a personality while just being your next door neighbor let alone living in a universe with an entirely different set of geography, history (and time period), species, religion, culture, lifestyle and metaphysics. The problem isn't that fantasy races can't meet the same standards as a human character it's that your expectations for the portrayal of a fantasy character are entirely mismatched with your expectations of a human character. That's a you problem.
Third you're mixing up ease of use with immersion. Something being harder to get right or to portray isn't the same thing as being less immersive. Maybe on average, sure, but if your basis is an average your conclusions are to say the least hyperbolic. I do of course presume that the title of the video is itself not intended to be taken 100% literally and that you're using hyperbole on purpose here so I'm saying you absolutely believe that merely employing fantasy races will necessarily always break the immersion and ruin the serious game. That being said, I do think you're wrong. I think any player with some skill and experience and with the proper worldbuilding freedom and set of expectations will for a serious game try to expand on the character beyond the tropes and portray the character properly within such characteristics. Will they succeed? That is a question of execution. Yes it will take more work, but a player CAN make it work, granted the conditions previously mentioned.
It's a shame you put so much effort into this comment because if you listened closely then you would realize that yes, my problem with fantasy races comes from the execution lol. It's wild to me that you got the point in the end but couldn't see the forest for the trees lol.
I do not have issues with fantasy races generally speaking. I do when they are strictly defined by surface level traits. I do think a majority of people within the hobby space are incompetent, evidenced by the entire point of the video speaking to that.
I think DMs and players are lazy and do not give the appropriate considerations to fantasy races at all or they do the exact opposite and go so far out of hand with their worldbuilding that it is impossible to portray correctly. The title is admittedly hyperbolic and meant to get attention but I thought people could read between the lines a little bit. I guess one part I could've clarified again for the people who are unable to gather context clues was at the end when I said fantasy races suck and nobody could convince me otherwise. They suck when they are poorly executed and imo a huge portion of the hobby poorly executes.
@@TrillTheDM The reason I - and as I've seen after scrolling down to some comments many others - didn't get that your problem is with a specific subsect of people is because that is not what you said. It may have been your intention but in every instance you made no note of any nuance besides it not mattering if "the player is not serious". You said there's these two categories of players but you never so much as made an allusion to a third group you don't have an issue with - least of all because your entire video is not how fantasy races CAN ruin immersion or that bad players / bad execution but that races do. From your wording, to the video structure to your framing, title, everything points to you believing the point you seem to portray.
@@opinionofmine3238 Except it's exactly what I said.
Two major issues I've had is when fantasy races are treated poorly or treated unreasonably stringent. Then I question the value of a fantasy race if it doesn't provide anything other than a set of stats.
Then I clarified why I think vampires tend to be treated better, there's enough human connection you can still play em "accurately" while being different enough from being just a human to still portray the fantastical elements.
You made an assumption that I don't believe there's a middle ground despite me giving what I think is an example of a good middle ground, vampires. I even end the video explicitly stating that I just want fantasy races to feel like they genuinely matter and aren't just a sticker laid on top of a human character. Is it necessary to allude to a third position when I'm almost strictly talking about when these things mess with my immersion?
Either way, fun convo and I appreciate the comments.
Great video! You have examined characters like I keep doing to magical systems. I agree, if your table is there for the social interaction, beer and pizza, anything goes and have a blast. I play solo and can spend hours staring at a wall thinking about things like this. To do these non-humans right you have to develop both deep cultural background but physiological ones. What are all the positive and negative social cues? To have half-whatever you almost have to assume a common genetic background. Why How/did the divergence occur? Does dwarven breast milk satisfy the nutritional needs of an elven infant? Why are there half elves and orcs, but not dwarves and Leshy? The world designer has a LOT to cover. This is one of the reasons I’ve been moving to more low magic sword &Sorcery type settings. I agree with you, I don’t even know if it would be possible to put yourself in the world view of a gnome , never mind a Leshy.
This video is spot on. That's why all these media with these alien races suck, from Star Wars to LotR.
@@pacceli2009 I don't fully agree. I mean idk Star Wars well enough but I think LOTR is just one type. Really the main inspiration for what people draw their fantasy from whether it's the movies or the books.
I think the unfortunate part is that EVERYBODY has made it their inspiration and basically stopped innovating from there.
The issue is that this logic really isn't particularly sound. Apply it only to fantasy races? What about magic. Nobody can relate to a wizard because nobody has even had the experience of bending reality to their will, twisting the very essence of life and existence to our whims. So magic is immersion breaking. If you're that focused on immersion, get rid of all your wizards. Clerics are immersion breaking, because no human has experienced bending a knee and calling out to their God and seeing their decapitated friends head fuse back to their bodies and watch them stand back up alive. Warlocks too. Nobody has ever made a pact with a dark entity and developed the power to rend reality and reach Godlike power. You can't expect full immersion because what you as an individual see as immersion breaking doesn't apply to others. If you really want proper immersion, just ditch fantasy altogether and stick to modern settings. The point of fantasy is that its NOT realism. Its imagination, and we try to imagine ourselves in the position of these other beings. Now, i know I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not trying to. But i am giving my own perspective that it's honestly just a weak argument that can easily be applied to things that you individually don't see as immersion breaking. If I'm being told "we're going super realistic immersive RPG" then i better not hear a single person say "I cast ....." Anything. Everyone should be a pure martial class. Because that's realistic and immersive. It can extend to a lot more, and then, can you even call it fantasy?
Sounds like a skill issue tbh. People play fantasy races every day without any of these issues appearing. This feels like rage bait at best.
You're correct, people have low standards and are terrible role players. You've hit the nail on the head.
This is the best thing I ever saw.
@@Monkey_Spunk LMFAO
let him cook lets see what he will say
I think that if you want to have different races but don't want to roleplay them differently from humans you can make them mutated/genetically modified humans.
Shadowrun, anyone? 🙂
I like your take
I suspect this guy might be a Battletech fan.
How so?
This, soooooo much this.
I don't find this an issue as I am working on a TTRPG that has no set Race or Species for Characters. You just make your own with Sizes and Traits.
It sounds to me like you're approaching fantasy from a science-fiction angle.
In the real world, human races have different biological features that give them advantages and disadvantages in different situations. Asian eyes are better at blocking dust, there's that one island tribe that have a second, transparent skin like amphibians, etc.
Most medieval fantasy worlds have cross-breeding between different races. Half-elves, Half-orcs, etc. this implies that they are the same species; humanity just has more genetic variance compared to the real world.
You think the humans in your campaign aren't superficial? Stereotypes are not bad things in and of themselves. You are the one who is saying that the nonhuman races are played as stereotypes or that they're too alien to be played. You sound like you're actually having trouble disengaging the real world from the fantastical. The races are given characteristics and often have broad behavioral stereotypes based on what people imagine such an existence could lead to. They are races of people, meant to be similar enough to interact, but with a variety of unique traits and behaviors. People have this amazingly stupid fascination with trying to be different for the sake of being different. There is nothing wrong with normal. If someone wants to play the snooty elf who can't stand dwarves, who cares? As long as they stick to that character, how is your immersion broken? This sounds like an issue with you not liking people playing standard templates, but if they don't follow the standard template, you argue that they're just playing a human in a costume.
This seems to be a grievance with bad writing rather than the unreal parts of fantasy races.
You're too focused on the relatability aspect. Just to guess, the stories you enjoy are reflective of reality and things that can't exist in human reality breaks that reflective quality. In a world with elves, dwarves, halflings etc., they aren't that far off from humans and their culture wouldn't be so alien that a person couldn't understand. They WOULD simply take on aspects of real life cultures, assuming that they live on the same plane as humans. Living in the same environments we do in our world would shape cultures and traditions to be similar. For example, if elves lived in a desert, their clothing would resemble what our desert-dwelling cultures do, because it would be logical to wear long garb and some kind of headwear to not be cooked by the sun. These elves might be selfish due to scant resources, their religion might even revolve around said resources or some phenomenon that brings them. The harsh environment might cause them to see those outside of it as weak. The psychology part would only apply to the truly alien parts of fantasy, think Illithids or elementals. To depict these as a human gm, one must focus on the actions that humans can understand rather than the motives or thought processes we cannot. A gm can never fully embody a culture/species they don't belong to, therefore the stereotypes of said races are important because that is likely what the pc's know of them before any contact with those races. No story is perfect and expecting constant immersion is unrealistic even in historical 'what-if' style games.
Now, my grievance with this video is with the taking rpg's seriously bit. When you say 'seriously' in a rpg do you mean everyone stays in character the whole session? Maybe all the players collaborating to specifically tell the story rather than playing a game? Minimal humor? The type of story that's being told? I'd like the specifics on that.
Sounds like a skill issue.
Yeah no this is a you problem not a problem of the concept in general dude
My problems are the only ones that matter.
I can agree with parts, also argue on points. For instance... why should difference races be so different or alien even? Thats a particular expectation from you youre assuming should be a given but- why? Should it? Btw we have NO REFERENCE- we know no other inteligent species besides our own. Through fiction authors have wondered a plethora of ways they may differ but even 'xeno' specialists (that is the part of serious science that theorizes how alien life forms may be) entertain they may be very similar.. Much of what we call human may as well be called inteligence.
For comparison animals- we see some differences in personality so to speak and behaviour but most come from very biological strategies for survival and not much else. They all want to survive the same, are generally as courageous as their 'prowess', and almost all of them have similar things to us even- from compassion to anger, paternal/maternal feelings and oh how so so many love things like cuddling and personal touch like we see in pets and even wild animals when 'tamed'- despite having no evolutionary reason to get cozy with another species. I literally had a dog, cat and turtle cuddling together. As far alien differences i think we could say we have 3 distinct branches(more alien to each other)- mammals, fish and insects.
Point is it isnt exactly the goal in FANTASY for those races to be more like an insect to start with- so xeno-psychology aside (more fitting to scifi) its actually very likely and feasible to imagine they would be way more like humans. For starters theyre already portrayed having comunal societies, laws, marriage, kings, religion, funerals... Thats 'human' isnt it?
Then theres the goals in the theme-genre... i used to be way more against stereotypes, but even if the reasons may come from the wrong place (like no effort in adding depth, lazy surface level stereotypes) thats actually the most fable-mythic-legends fitting way to do fantasy races. If a fantasy setting/game wants to have some of that vibe then... well pretty much all legends, creatures and otherwise even gods do work through stereotypes. One could even argue they could do with a bit more- maybe a leprechaun would have a phisiological unexplainable attraction to gold or shining things almost like an instinct. But that would hardly count as being too alien- would be closer to the vampire example instead, more like a condition. The sources that birthed most of fantasy (in particular high fantasy) DID PORTRAY THEN AS HUMAN-LIKE.
Heck...
Everything you said about vampires- THATS IT. Vampires btw are creatures from legends like all others. They all come from humans- be it an argument on the human condition, a reflection of an human feature.
I do agree with you in many points tough; Fantasy races should lean more on something thats palapable for roleplay- i just disagree it would necessarily be 'alien'. And the whole thing could or should be moot because id argue that any intelligent race would be varied- like humans- so whatever stereotypes would have many exceptions anyway. In my setting for example elves(high elves) are generally leaning towards introspectiviness, stoicism, that can appear as 'cold' or distant and supressing emotions- but its unclear how much is from being an elf or how much is from their culture, since the wild elves are considered closely related yet do a lot of the opposite. In any case i do include that anyone that strives from that is generally singled out as weird, or un-elven like, because the exceptions exist.
Meanwhile i had some of the same in a pseudo-japan-like nation, where cultural etiquette was against much expression at least publicly. Maybe the high elves have a more natural tendency then just culture but... who can say? If in real earth 21st century science have a real hard time to tell apart nature vs nurture and drawn conclusions in complex subjects like that why would it need a clear answer in a fantasy setting?
I think the main issue you have(me too) is with stereotypes and how in turn most players/tables dont even try to make interesting characters(be it human or otherwise) but sticking with the stereotypes or nothing at all- and so so often at the cost of humans, so lots of settings have almost none to a tenth of the cultural diversity we do, anything besides european culture goes to some pointy ears and everything stays at surface level.
Another big issue and where i feel most of the 'alien' subject comes from is the Tolkien longetivity idea d&d and others copied without any toughts put into it. I completely removed entire races living 500 years or whatever like that, and the longer longevity i did add isnt meant to be played anyway. I did had some ideas for changing that that i never explored, like a special choice where a trait of being really old would mechanically push players into doing things differently (and hopefully inspire roleplaying differently?) but i never got to it
Anyway i dont believe fantasy races should necessarily be that different or roleplayed that differently and theres room for the estereotypes. Id say that meme with the 2 vampires would apply as well to fantasy races- the new player or non-roleplayer would be playing a straight dwarf trope, a roleplayer could be doing one that never liked ale, or find that part of his culture problematic or idk had serious issues with alcoholism and lost his wife and family because of it (to the point he left his homeland and hit the road)
...in the end thats all on authors- and in rpgs on gm and players. Singling out different races existing feels misplaced for me. Its like 'most people go over the speed limit at some point, so we shouldnt have cars' or something like that. Fantasy have room to be many things and you may be more drawn to explore expeculative fiction of how a different 'species' born with magic or something would be really different from human... wich is valid but isnt the most popular type of fantasy and not what most are coming for, also not the one sold by d&d.
And in a way i feel the term fantasy races is perfect for that reason. Most of what you said sounds like you mean SPECIES. I think its proper to see fantasy races closer to human races, only difference being our races have very little aesthetical surface differences. What if one lived more could lead to some interesting places but i dont think would be that different... and btw on that subject we do have human races that are short (pigmy) and their culture and behaviour wasnt exactly un-human from that either.
Wack take, sounds like a lack of imagination and understanding of the human condition that all humanoid creatures would and could endure