Honestly, I don't mind seeing the game through the players' perspectives sometimes. It helps convey just how fast the game is played at the highest level, and showcases even more of their skill.
if you are fond of other Dutch starcraft 2 content creaters, both Uthermal and Harstem post daily vids of high level sc2 gameplay from their pov, while they are talking to chat or just commenting their game live.
@@jessedijksma3442 I watch Harstem on the reg already lol. The Captain makes great content. I respect uthermal, but he kind of annoys me and I can't pinpoint exactly why, so I find it difficult to watch his videos. He does some very silly things though, which is great
A lot of folks are still interested in this old game, true, and that's in a large part because of content creators like you. I don't watch a lot of Starcraft 2 videos. I do, however, watch a lot of Lowko videos. People like you are worth watching.
A 5 game series between pros where they both play random every game would be so fun. Or they should have a whole tournament where everyone has to play random, to spice things up
Lowko, remember what the devs said on patch 5.0.12? "Increase the variety in the mid game and late game army compositions by reducing the strength of massed Ghosts, Banelings, and Disruptors." Disruptors aren't really in the Protoss arsenal anymore. Banelings are much less used than they were before the nerfs. Where are Ghosts now? Same place they always were - running around in groups of 15-20 every late game Terran. Time to admit the nerfs didn't work.
The problem isn't exactly the nerfs not working. It is more than no other unit is as effective as a ghost. Essentially there has to be a unit to replace the ghost and the pros haven't found one. I think that is the issue SC2 (and all strategies games) has. If you want the unit to be replaced, it will most likely take a buff. But that buff is, in my opinion, more difficult to figure out. It is easier to slow walk a nerf on a popular unit and get instant results than buff an unpopular unit and get results. Buffs have a tendency to make units significantly overpowered, even when done in small increments, because it is impossible to test them effectively against a range of scenarios. You need the pros to play the buffed unit in order to find what it can do, then have other pros find a counter to it.
@taoofjester4113 Why would they bother to find a ghost replacement if the devs won't touch ghosts? The only reason you're seeing different build orders and strategies from Zerg and Protoss is key parts of their comps got significantly nerfed. Terran hasn't.
@KingOfNebbishes let me see if I can explain it better. They nerf ghost, but ghost is still a massive part of late game right? The point I am making is unless there is a unit equal to or better than a ghost, ghosts will continue to be produced because of their late game abilities. So to replace a ghost, you either keep nerfing ghosts or buff another unit. Buffing another unit is more difficult than nerfing. So, another nerf to ghost might be needed. Yet how much are you going to nerf? Is the data consistent across all high level SC2 games? Will that nerf change mid game? Early game? Then add on it is mostly just the community trying to figure out nerfs and buffs, it becomes even more difficult. Again, if you nerf ghost out, what will be used to replace it and will that unit be balanced against late stage zero and protoss? You can't just nerf a unit without understanding what will be used instead and how will that new unit work as it is.
@taoofjester4113 They did exactly that for Banelings and Disruptors, though, and no one had a clue what to use instead, so now we're seeing innovation. Meanwhile Terran has largely been untouched except for the Cyclone rework, and no Terran uses them against Zerg or Protoss for anything but cheese. Instead, you see virtually the same builds out of Terran. Reaper harrass into either cloaked Banshees or 2 Medivac drops, and if the game isn't ended early, then a deliberate stroll from MMM aggro to late game mass Ghosts. All way too formulaic.
@@taoofjester4113 Ghost needs to be narrowed into a speciffic role rather than a "counter everything" unit. Terran have the late game tools but the ghost just overwrite them because when you make ghost you don't have to make a choice. It is a unit with no weakness which is a big problem. It's a spellcaster counter, a big unit counter, an AoE spellcaster, an anti-light counter all while being the sturdiest and fastest of the spellcasters. (oh, and being able to cloak while countering detectors) Ghosts should be less effective against broodlords to let vikings and thors shine (and both are hard counters to BL), They shouldn't be able to instantly delete half of a protoss army health in a few clicks. A nerf to snipe range would still let them counter ultras, counter queens, counter viper/infestor/HT, counter light units, be a sturdy part of the core army BUT would make them less effective against broodlords and lurkers giving zerg a chance to counter ghost. A nerf to EMP damage against shields in the form of it doing damage over time wouldn't impact TvZ but would give toss a way to react to the spell rather than having half of its army health disapear in 0.5s with a few rapidfire EMP. Then why not move around some of the ghost power, like give the banshee some late game utility (let's get crazy, give them a double damage against burrowed/sieged units) or tweak vikings/thors a bit. But as it is, one unit answering everything so much that it's a no brainer to make it is a toxic unit.
Started watching this yesterday, wasn't able to finish it then, picked up it again today and after about 20 mins i realized that i have forgotten that they switched races. It was an otherworldly realization. Anyway great series, thanks Lowko.
From a viewer pov: I find the instant pickups of medivacs to be more of an issue than ghosts. It really seems the micro potential is just gamebreaking with marines/medivacs.
Sure, but no other race uses them for combat capability. Like it’s a core part of the Terran army; they also generally have enough to pick up the entire army; not just ghetto blink a few units at a time.
Reynor won, but at what cost? He just proved terran is too strong... and now "has to" go back to playing zerg. It's funny how people hated on serral - saying he only won cuz zerg was too op. But he's continued dominating for years despite nerf after nerf. Whereas nobody's claiming Clem won because terran is too op. I'm not saying that's the ONLY reason he won because he showed here he IS good. But for sure nobody playing zerg or protoss had a realistic 50/50 shot of contesting him in his worlds victory run just based on balance. Still need to see some re-balance and have Clem prove his longevity to put him with the likes of Serral or Maru though.
Plenty of people were complaining about Clem winning because terran. Lowko actually talks about it at 22:42. Did you not watch the video and just dropped a comment to complain?
@@davidbeauchemin1840 I did watch thank you very much. But if you listen all these years later, some people still talk about Serral like he only won cuz "zerg op". No such similar level with terran. Blame map. "Slight" imbalance. Not "terran is absolutely too op" type of claim. Nor massive outcry that Clem wouldn't have stood a chance if things were balanced. There's a big difference. *Note: I don't think he'd stand NO chance if balance were better. But if it makes the fun police club leader feel better, then you can pretend I didn't pay attention and you "caught" me.
lol "what do you make? what can he make to counter the current terran army?" stares at turtle terran ghost army..... yah nah. Gotta agree that a new map pool would be nice.
Turtle Terran is so boring to watch ngl. Spent 10+ minutes watching Zerg try and go through the only viable choke point with 15000 resources in the bank
My personal feeling as a long time viewer and complete noob is both mules and ghosts are a bit out of whack right now but everything can be worked around by the other races
The only player I know to actually play Random at a high level is uThermal! Can't think of anyone with a better understanding of how much zany nonsense you can do with every single race. Lol.
I am subscribed to uth, but he is far below these two in skill. And his benefit is that he mostly plays against different opponents every time, so they don't know the cheese he is doing.
This is an idea ive been waiting for a long time. Maybe a tournament were they use the main race of the opponent or if mirror match up, they can choose from the other than their main. Would be thrilling to see who is the best and to know the balances if there were some
Based on swarm-host rambling, an idea for late-game upgrade: 400/400 cost, 3 min time. Reduces supply cost of swarm hosts by 1. So you cannot rush it. You don't raise the cap for all units, but you make them a bit more viable in late game, where you also get some other units as well.
It’s funny how Reynor’s think like a Zerg and doesn’t have a reflexes to be aggressive in early game. Also cost efficiently is mind blowing and it’s considered as a normal disbalance in TvZ. And yeah, I’ll join to the balance complainers. I think Clem’s Zerg is way better than Reynor’s Terran. But even with two throwed games in the beginning it’s not a usual 3-1 or 3-0 in TvZ.
I don't know if I just haven't noticed it before, but I _really_ like the minimap showing the outlines for both players' focus. That's really helpful for me to see!
Thanks for mentioning you zoom out more when casting! I played Co-Op for the first time in forever and was wondering why my view was so cramped. Guess I've been watching too much Lowko and got used to your view!
Complains over ghosts were already constantly appearing every tournament/gsl since the patch (with terran getting 5-7 top 8 spots). Then you add an absolute one sided 4-0 final and what did you expect? Of course people felt it was absolutely imba and jumped back on the busted late game unit. (I'm personally impressed marine aren't as complained in comparison. They are way above the power of the others tier 1 units of any race)
@@sashasemennikov157 That could be said for queens too but it didn't stop people to complain about them and get them nerfed. I just found it interesting how they escaped any nerf/balance talk while being so above the rest. (not saying they should nerf them anyway, it's just a thought exercise)
22:42 if we had a nickle every time LowKo compared complaing in SC2 to Chess, or casual jabs at chess (and its boring board layout that lacks mountians) we'd have quite a few nickles about now
Interesting both of them play using the blue color. In a study some years ago, players in red tended to be more aggresive compared when playing with blue. The percentage of W/L ratio was 1% higher for red users that is not a lot but in competitive sports, it might make the difference. Great series as always!
The problem with ghosts isnt even just that theyre overpowered, its that theyre good against everything, and theres never really a bad time to have them
Why is terran so allergic to making ravens? I know why, its mostly because of the command centers. Wonder if a protoss player that plays terran as their off race would be more incline to build ravens. Think I prefer the raven harassment with turrets over the banshee one.
I find it incredibly ironic that Lowko says that Terran is definitely not imba, and then proceeds to enumerate all the things that make Terran imba and suggest changes to those things for the rest of the cast. I'd also say that contrary to Lowko's statement saying this series proves Terran is not imba, I'd argue it did quite the opposite of that. Even as an off-race, Terran still wins.
The idea that Terran is imbalanced is ridiculous; this was an off race vs off race series. Not a series where Reynor plays off race against another of the best zergs (with their main race) in the world and wins easily. Not to mention Reynor is a player who often plays his off races for fun or practice. It's not uncommon for Reynor to break out one of his off races in a tournament. I'd say that gives Reynor a much higher likelihood that he would win. I think the fact that this came down to be 3 games vs 2 games with Clem playing something I haven't heard of him playing, at least often or publicly, shows the races are incredibly well balanced.
@@En-Jon-eer thats like saying to prove zerg is op, clem has to play zerg vs Byun or Maru... Ofcourse hes gonna lose. Same with reynor against serral. And Clem has a pretty high mmr with zerg too, Im actually amazed at how good he is! His creep spread is insane, good transfuses, good abductions and fungals. Its like hes on another level but even then his skill wasnt enough (mainly think the races are balanced too until ghosts start popping off is when the game starts to spiral)
@@En-Jon-eer when you look at match results, it is close, but if you add in how 1-sided each game was as well, the story gets a lot more nuanced. The first 2 games were either quite close or relied on Reynor messing up/getting sloppy. That is to say, Clem's wins weren't inevitable. However, with Reynor's wins they each got to a point of almost total Terran inevitability - that Clem's chances as Zerg were very small even when you add in the sort of typical mistakes this level of pros make. I think most people are okay with the idea Terran is the most late-game favored, but when a result starts to feel almost entirely inevitable, it isn't healthy for the game - both players and spectators lose interest. There needs to be some chink in the Terran's armor that opponents can hope to capitalize against, even if it's tricky. Terran have too many effective redundancies that are simultaneously complimentary to one another: 3 very long range units in tanks, liberators, and snipes, which also cover AOE damage and big targets, and can cover one another's blind spots for example. Mix in MULE economy and you can simply have larger armies than your opponent without needing to take much, if any, hit on your mining.
@@bricelory9534 if we are going to stay focused on this match, Reynor winning was what I expected: as I mentioned he's known for playing his off races so it's no surprise that he's good at them. To me it's more of a surprise that it was this close. As to Terran being the most favored late game race, to an extent I agree. It's the most efficient race with the current Meta. So the longer a Terran can push the game the better their chances. But that is very heavily relying on the current Meta and I feel your complaint is still ridiculous to me because when you boil down your argument it sounds like it becomes 'man when Terran gets in a strategically good position their win is inevitable.'. which is pretty obvious, don't you think? Like any race getting to a strategically good position makes a victory for that race pretty inevitable. Getting to that position isn't inevitable. The really silly part of this argument to me is that it seems very much like it's relying on the current Meta to never change. Zerg has plenty of tools they are underusing with their units that make units for free, mobile 'static' defense and the best casters in the game, so there are plenty of ways for the players to change things up. It's just going to take time for the players to figure it out.
@En-Jon-eer eh ib think he's right. Terran are way to favored for the late game. What tricks and tools since you mentioned it of the zerg do you not see them using? The problem to me is ghosts beat anything zerg make late game and it's so boring to watch. Even when zerg can wipe a terran like repeatedly mules keep terrand going way to long. I feel like a nerf to mules and ghost would really help balance things.
I would like to see lowko cast starcraft 2 on shrooms. "Hellooooo everyone! My name is Lowkooooo!" 30 seconds into the match "This marauder scout (in actuality a SCV scout) is pretty early" 1 minute in "Wait it's only been 1 minute? or is that a 7, maybe a 5? it feels like fifteen minutes, but the real question is, where did that battlecruiser come from?" *points at nothing with the mouse cursor, in a zerg vs protoss match.* hahahaha
Just so you know, his cat is the one that receives those letters. I am not saying you will die if you write it, but so far no one has survived doing so. May the odds and all that.
Lowko, Thor upgrade will have little influence on mutas, damage is unchanged Vs light, radius/damage ratio is increased but range reduction from 11 to 7 will make it soo much easier to escape. By the time Thor is in range mutas are long gone
250 supply would probably favour the Zerg more at the start since they could drone up much faster. If there was a timing in which the supply would be increased by 50? eg. after the 12-15min mark or something?
Raynor (Terran) and Clem (Zerg) in an hour and 40 min Bo5?! let's do this! Lowko, Marines only need to know what 1+1 is, meanwhile, ghosts, on the other hand, need a academy to know how to snipe and EMP stuff...lol
When I watch Zerg's losing I always see them having no siege capabilities. So if anything needs a buff that's what is needed. Personally I petition a Roach/Ravager buff for the late game. Like give them a tectonic destabilizer upgrade on biles and increases their range by 2. Then reduce all unit cost by 20%.
@@kosmosXcannon That's a pretty amazing buff for the Ultra but still not enough. They need this plus something like a +300 hp buff or a Charge ability.
@@PhysicsGamer Yeah they should be siege masters but the broodlings are weak. Plus broodlords get easily sniped and they are slow. Broodlords need to get increased dmg to buildings to be atleast be good at sieging. And maybe make the broodlings stack.
I m freetime chessplayer, and i can say that there is a bit complaining about the first-move-right for white, and players with black often have the feeling, that they lose because of that ONE move. Also there are lots of complains about certain opening systems e.g. Ruy-Lopez, Queensgambit. And like in StarCraft you have to learn how to play against 😁
0:13:35 "He wanted to deal a bunch of damage, but he never really got a lot of damage done, He took damage instead at home and he just... kind of fizzled out, as time went on, What exactly can we do In game number two..." Really? Noone noticed this pure SC2 poetry?
I think best Random player in the world is actually Uthermal that play every race as cheese. I watched him play, and maybe he is not best of the best with any of it, he can play all of them really great in GM elo.
I'd say reduce ghost hp instead of it's damage. It's a light unit with close to the hp of a marauder. In BW they had 60(?) The equivalent of building armor would be shield upgrade and Lair/hatchery (but that is a high cost and per building, but it's more hp...)
Ghosts are already the third-most fragile caster. Templar are glorious sitting ducks at 40+40hp no armor and slow speed, Infestors have 90, Ghosts 100. But take a look at the flying ones? Raven -140hp, 1 armor. Viper - 150hp, 1 armor. Oracle - 100+60hp though no armor. The problem is that most high tech units are expensive, and Snipe and Abduct basically read "that's a nice unit you have there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it". If you look at the ZvZ late game, it basically ends up at a Marine-Tank-Ghost imitation with Hydra-Lurker-Viper because the concept is strong.
reynor and clem has been doing this years ago. lmao. back then these two would have lots of match/scrims and would have hilarious banters --- majority of those, reynor had the last laugh lol.
"If the maximum supply for zerg was 250..." In the very late game, couldn't it be? With a big bank and APM to spare, why not spore crawler trick all your drones at once?
what if ultras were half size, half supply, and half damage? I feel like the biggest issue with ultras is how big they are, but I don't really know much about the meta. Obviously ghosts could still kill t hem, but if you could mass them, maybe it would work?
Always like this duo play agasinst each other. while we ranting on the balance, they just chill and enjoy the game~ talking about balance, not that I have any complaint especially I havn't playing much, but it seems that the cost inefficiency for zert is way off the chart. A year or two ago, Zerg is usually seeing losing like 20%-30% more resource and they might have a chance, now it is common seeing Zerg losing like 40% more resources, I do think Bliz has been nerfing Zerg way too much, but then we saw Zerg still holding themselves and I have no idea how... for Swamhost, I do hope Bliz would make it an anti air unit, like a carrier, that maybe only able to release locus when rooted as in compaign, Zerg's anti air options are too limited IMO.
I get the feeling Reynor going super turtle terran and ghost sniping everything is him saying:
"SEE!!! HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT ONCE IN A WHILE!!!"
Honestly, I don't mind seeing the game through the players' perspectives sometimes. It helps convey just how fast the game is played at the highest level, and showcases even more of their skill.
if you are fond of other Dutch starcraft 2 content creaters, both Uthermal and Harstem post daily vids of high level sc2 gameplay from their pov, while they are talking to chat or just commenting their game live.
@@jessedijksma3442 I watch Harstem on the reg already lol. The Captain makes great content.
I respect uthermal, but he kind of annoys me and I can't pinpoint exactly why, so I find it difficult to watch his videos. He does some very silly things though, which is great
A lot of folks are still interested in this old game, true, and that's in a large part because of content creators like you.
I don't watch a lot of Starcraft 2 videos. I do, however, watch a lot of Lowko videos.
People like you are worth watching.
1:01:00 I freaken love Reynor xD
Both of these lads are super entertaining, great to see
Reynor is a fan fav fr
A 5 game series between pros where they both play random every game would be so fun. Or they should have a whole tournament where everyone has to play random, to spice things up
Sex is nice and all... but have you ever fungled 20 ghosts. Had me dying! 🤣
Terran OP, officially confirmed
Lowko, remember what the devs said on patch 5.0.12? "Increase the variety in the mid game and late game army compositions by reducing the strength of massed Ghosts, Banelings, and Disruptors."
Disruptors aren't really in the Protoss arsenal anymore. Banelings are much less used than they were before the nerfs. Where are Ghosts now? Same place they always were - running around in groups of 15-20 every late game Terran. Time to admit the nerfs didn't work.
The problem isn't exactly the nerfs not working. It is more than no other unit is as effective as a ghost. Essentially there has to be a unit to replace the ghost and the pros haven't found one.
I think that is the issue SC2 (and all strategies games) has. If you want the unit to be replaced, it will most likely take a buff. But that buff is, in my opinion, more difficult to figure out. It is easier to slow walk a nerf on a popular unit and get instant results than buff an unpopular unit and get results.
Buffs have a tendency to make units significantly overpowered, even when done in small increments, because it is impossible to test them effectively against a range of scenarios. You need the pros to play the buffed unit in order to find what it can do, then have other pros find a counter to it.
@taoofjester4113 Why would they bother to find a ghost replacement if the devs won't touch ghosts? The only reason you're seeing different build orders and strategies from Zerg and Protoss is key parts of their comps got significantly nerfed. Terran hasn't.
@KingOfNebbishes let me see if I can explain it better. They nerf ghost, but ghost is still a massive part of late game right? The point I am making is unless there is a unit equal to or better than a ghost, ghosts will continue to be produced because of their late game abilities.
So to replace a ghost, you either keep nerfing ghosts or buff another unit. Buffing another unit is more difficult than nerfing. So, another nerf to ghost might be needed.
Yet how much are you going to nerf? Is the data consistent across all high level SC2 games? Will that nerf change mid game? Early game?
Then add on it is mostly just the community trying to figure out nerfs and buffs, it becomes even more difficult.
Again, if you nerf ghost out, what will be used to replace it and will that unit be balanced against late stage zero and protoss? You can't just nerf a unit without understanding what will be used instead and how will that new unit work as it is.
@taoofjester4113 They did exactly that for Banelings and Disruptors, though, and no one had a clue what to use instead, so now we're seeing innovation. Meanwhile Terran has largely been untouched except for the Cyclone rework, and no Terran uses them against Zerg or Protoss for anything but cheese.
Instead, you see virtually the same builds out of Terran. Reaper harrass into either cloaked Banshees or 2 Medivac drops, and if the game isn't ended early, then a deliberate stroll from MMM aggro to late game mass Ghosts. All way too formulaic.
@@taoofjester4113 Ghost needs to be narrowed into a speciffic role rather than a "counter everything" unit. Terran have the late game tools but the ghost just overwrite them because when you make ghost you don't have to make a choice. It is a unit with no weakness which is a big problem.
It's a spellcaster counter, a big unit counter, an AoE spellcaster, an anti-light counter all while being the sturdiest and fastest of the spellcasters. (oh, and being able to cloak while countering detectors)
Ghosts should be less effective against broodlords to let vikings and thors shine (and both are hard counters to BL), They shouldn't be able to instantly delete half of a protoss army health in a few clicks.
A nerf to snipe range would still let them counter ultras, counter queens, counter viper/infestor/HT, counter light units, be a sturdy part of the core army BUT would make them less effective against broodlords and lurkers giving zerg a chance to counter ghost.
A nerf to EMP damage against shields in the form of it doing damage over time wouldn't impact TvZ but would give toss a way to react to the spell rather than having half of its army health disapear in 0.5s with a few rapidfire EMP.
Then why not move around some of the ghost power, like give the banshee some late game utility (let's get crazy, give them a double damage against burrowed/sieged units) or tweak vikings/thors a bit.
But as it is, one unit answering everything so much that it's a no brainer to make it is a toxic unit.
You either die a Zerg or live long enough to see yourself turn into Turtle Terran
The player that lost (to avoid spoilers) should send this replay to IODIS
And get their own race nerfed?
Watch them nerf the Ghost attack speed but then "to make up for the loss of power" double the attack damage.
Would love to see a tournament, where guys have to play with their opponents race in every match. Who would win that?!
Game of year missing in title :(
Fr
Started watching this yesterday, wasn't able to finish it then, picked up it again today and after about 20 mins i realized that i have forgotten that they switched races. It was an otherworldly realization. Anyway great series, thanks Lowko.
Very nice series, unexpected too. I do think Clem could try using Nydus worms to try to distract the Terran and break through.
From a viewer pov: I find the instant pickups of medivacs to be more of an issue than ghosts. It really seems the micro potential is just gamebreaking with marines/medivacs.
Pretty much all races can do that.
Sure, but no other race uses them for combat capability. Like it’s a core part of the Terran army; they also generally have enough to pick up the entire army; not just ghetto blink a few units at a time.
i was so used watching sc2 games being casted from their zoomed out perspective; it threw me for a loop when i tried going back into a game of sc2.
and here we realize that the terran is op af
Reynor won, but at what cost? He just proved terran is too strong... and now "has to" go back to playing zerg.
It's funny how people hated on serral - saying he only won cuz zerg was too op. But he's continued dominating for years despite nerf after nerf. Whereas nobody's claiming Clem won because terran is too op. I'm not saying that's the ONLY reason he won because he showed here he IS good. But for sure nobody playing zerg or protoss had a realistic 50/50 shot of contesting him in his worlds victory run just based on balance. Still need to see some re-balance and have Clem prove his longevity to put him with the likes of Serral or Maru though.
Plenty of people were complaining about Clem winning because terran. Lowko actually talks about it at 22:42. Did you not watch the video and just dropped a comment to complain?
@@davidbeauchemin1840 I did watch thank you very much. But if you listen all these years later, some people still talk about Serral like he only won cuz "zerg op". No such similar level with terran. Blame map. "Slight" imbalance. Not "terran is absolutely too op" type of claim. Nor massive outcry that Clem wouldn't have stood a chance if things were balanced. There's a big difference.
*Note: I don't think he'd stand NO chance if balance were better.
But if it makes the fun police club leader feel better, then you can pretend I didn't pay attention and you "caught" me.
lol "what do you make? what can he make to counter the current terran army?" stares at turtle terran ghost army..... yah nah. Gotta agree that a new map pool would be nice.
I mean different map pool but nothing stops terrans from just turtling and doing it all over again.
Turtle Terran is so boring to watch ngl. Spent 10+ minutes watching Zerg try and go through the only viable choke point with 15000 resources in the bank
"Sex is nice and all, but have you ever fungaled 20 ghosts?"
- lowko 2024
34:56 Lowko be wildin
34:58
Protoss shield upgrades do apply to buildings aswell!
felt really like reynor just copied the strongest strategies of terrans for the maps and threw it at clem to prove a point.
and he did, id say.
I mean, you'd *hope* that the people in charge of pointing the nukes would have at least a degree in nukeology xD
My personal feeling as a long time viewer and complete noob is both mules and ghosts are a bit out of whack right now but everything can be worked around by the other races
The only player I know to actually play Random at a high level is uThermal! Can't think of anyone with a better understanding of how much zany nonsense you can do with every single race. Lol.
I am subscribed to uth, but he is far below these two in skill. And his benefit is that he mostly plays against different opponents every time, so they don't know the cheese he is doing.
nope
Haven't watched this video yet, but seen series live - so want to say right away that this one is truly-really cool!!!
This is an idea ive been waiting for a long time. Maybe a tournament were they use the main race of the opponent or if mirror match up, they can choose from the other than their main. Would be thrilling to see who is the best and to know the balances if there were some
Thank you Lowko, these videos are great for me to get better at StarCraft 2.
Based on swarm-host rambling, an idea for late-game upgrade: 400/400 cost, 3 min time. Reduces supply cost of swarm hosts by 1. So you cannot rush it. You don't raise the cap for all units, but you make them a bit more viable in late game, where you also get some other units as well.
It’s funny how Reynor’s think like a Zerg and doesn’t have a reflexes to be aggressive in early game.
Also cost efficiently is mind blowing and it’s considered as a normal disbalance in TvZ.
And yeah, I’ll join to the balance complainers. I think Clem’s Zerg is way better than Reynor’s Terran. But even with two throwed games in the beginning it’s not a usual 3-1 or 3-0 in TvZ.
I see 'epic series', I click. Lowko's never steered me wrong.
Thanks for the video, Lowko. Players playing their opponent's races? This is going to be good! ❤
Terran flanking flanking zerg is something else! )
I don't know if I just haven't noticed it before, but I _really_ like the minimap showing the outlines for both players' focus. That's really helpful for me to see!
Thanks for mentioning you zoom out more when casting! I played Co-Op for the first time in forever and was wondering why my view was so cramped. Guess I've been watching too much Lowko and got used to your view!
Oui oui la vache qui rit = yes yes, the cow that laugh
Awesome, intresting video starting with the title im looking forward to watch that batte
Complains over ghosts were already constantly appearing every tournament/gsl since the patch (with terran getting 5-7 top 8 spots).
Then you add an absolute one sided 4-0 final and what did you expect? Of course people felt it was absolutely imba and jumped back on the busted late game unit. (I'm personally impressed marine aren't as complained in comparison. They are way above the power of the others tier 1 units of any race)
Marines are absolutely OP unit. The whole game is balanced around it. But it is balanced.
Ghost - not so much
@@sashasemennikov157 That could be said for queens too but it didn't stop people to complain about them and get them nerfed.
I just found it interesting how they escaped any nerf/balance talk while being so above the rest. (not saying they should nerf them anyway, it's just a thought exercise)
22:42 if we had a nickle every time LowKo compared complaing in SC2 to Chess, or casual jabs at chess (and its boring board layout that lacks mountians) we'd have quite a few nickles about now
"we need morebitals" got me to lol :)
Interesting both of them play using the blue color. In a study some years ago, players in red tended to be more aggresive compared when playing with blue. The percentage of W/L ratio was 1% higher for red users that is not a lot but in competitive sports, it might make the difference.
Great series as always!
THIS is best of 5 of the year!
so Clem gets 20k bank as zerg and GGs out vs Terran...hmm where have I seen that before seems balanced
It was a great serie to watch...thanks
I had no clue that you could get a 1/100 nova with that skin equipped, that’s pretty cool
34:58 no way i just heard those words out of his mouth 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 I love him so much wtfff 😂😂😂
The problem with ghosts isnt even just that theyre overpowered, its that theyre good against everything, and theres never really a bad time to have them
1:02:18 I was half expecting that Lowko was going to say that protoss is overpowered
wish there was a love button, lowko
love the green v red colors also
Why is terran so allergic to making ravens? I know why, its mostly because of the command centers. Wonder if a protoss player that plays terran as their off race would be more incline to build ravens. Think I prefer the raven harassment with turrets over the banshee one.
Did someone traveled to the past and overturn some stone?
I find it incredibly ironic that Lowko says that Terran is definitely not imba, and then proceeds to enumerate all the things that make Terran imba and suggest changes to those things for the rest of the cast. I'd also say that contrary to Lowko's statement saying this series proves Terran is not imba, I'd argue it did quite the opposite of that. Even as an off-race, Terran still wins.
The idea that Terran is imbalanced is ridiculous; this was an off race vs off race series. Not a series where Reynor plays off race against another of the best zergs (with their main race) in the world and wins easily. Not to mention Reynor is a player who often plays his off races for fun or practice. It's not uncommon for Reynor to break out one of his off races in a tournament. I'd say that gives Reynor a much higher likelihood that he would win.
I think the fact that this came down to be 3 games vs 2 games with Clem playing something I haven't heard of him playing, at least often or publicly, shows the races are incredibly well balanced.
@@En-Jon-eer thats like saying to prove zerg is op, clem has to play zerg vs Byun or Maru... Ofcourse hes gonna lose. Same with reynor against serral. And Clem has a pretty high mmr with zerg too, Im actually amazed at how good he is! His creep spread is insane, good transfuses, good abductions and fungals. Its like hes on another level but even then his skill wasnt enough (mainly think the races are balanced too until ghosts start popping off is when the game starts to spiral)
@@En-Jon-eer when you look at match results, it is close, but if you add in how 1-sided each game was as well, the story gets a lot more nuanced. The first 2 games were either quite close or relied on Reynor messing up/getting sloppy. That is to say, Clem's wins weren't inevitable. However, with Reynor's wins they each got to a point of almost total Terran inevitability - that Clem's chances as Zerg were very small even when you add in the sort of typical mistakes this level of pros make.
I think most people are okay with the idea Terran is the most late-game favored, but when a result starts to feel almost entirely inevitable, it isn't healthy for the game - both players and spectators lose interest. There needs to be some chink in the Terran's armor that opponents can hope to capitalize against, even if it's tricky. Terran have too many effective redundancies that are simultaneously complimentary to one another: 3 very long range units in tanks, liberators, and snipes, which also cover AOE damage and big targets, and can cover one another's blind spots for example. Mix in MULE economy and you can simply have larger armies than your opponent without needing to take much, if any, hit on your mining.
@@bricelory9534 if we are going to stay focused on this match, Reynor winning was what I expected: as I mentioned he's known for playing his off races so it's no surprise that he's good at them. To me it's more of a surprise that it was this close.
As to Terran being the most favored late game race, to an extent I agree. It's the most efficient race with the current Meta. So the longer a Terran can push the game the better their chances. But that is very heavily relying on the current Meta and I feel your complaint is still ridiculous to me because when you boil down your argument it sounds like it becomes 'man when Terran gets in a strategically good position their win is inevitable.'. which is pretty obvious, don't you think? Like any race getting to a strategically good position makes a victory for that race pretty inevitable. Getting to that position isn't inevitable.
The really silly part of this argument to me is that it seems very much like it's relying on the current Meta to never change. Zerg has plenty of tools they are underusing with their units that make units for free, mobile 'static' defense and the best casters in the game, so there are plenty of ways for the players to change things up. It's just going to take time for the players to figure it out.
@En-Jon-eer eh ib think he's right. Terran are way to favored for the late game. What tricks and tools since you mentioned it of the zerg do you not see them using? The problem to me is ghosts beat anything zerg make late game and it's so boring to watch. Even when zerg can wipe a terran like repeatedly mules keep terrand going way to long. I feel like a nerf to mules and ghost would really help balance things.
I would like to see lowko cast starcraft 2 on shrooms. "Hellooooo everyone! My name is Lowkooooo!" 30 seconds into the match "This marauder scout (in actuality a SCV scout) is pretty early" 1 minute in "Wait it's only been 1 minute? or is that a 7, maybe a 5? it feels like fifteen minutes, but the real question is, where did that battlecruiser come from?" *points at nothing with the mouse cursor, in a zerg vs protoss match.*
hahahaha
No classic Lowko intro soundbite? I shall dislike, unsubscribe and write a strongly-worded letter of complaint to the management immediately!, 😂
Just so you know, his cat is the one that receives those letters. I am not saying you will die if you write it, but so far no one has survived doing so. May the odds and all that.
I'll also sign that letter, if we're bitching about it to Ms. Lowko
He probably forgot to brush his teeth too
19:35
OH. That's why I was getting confused. Red and green.
I'm french and i can confirm that we say "OUI OUI LA VACHE QUI RIT (KIRI)" at least 3 times a day
Lowko, Thor upgrade will have little influence on mutas, damage is unchanged Vs light, radius/damage ratio is increased but range reduction from 11 to 7 will make it soo much easier to escape. By the time Thor is in range mutas are long gone
I think best balance would be: the world champion has to play any race but the race they triump with, until the rest of the year.
great games! great series! this only shows that terran is really OP.
250 supply would probably favour the Zerg more at the start since they could drone up much faster. If there was a timing in which the supply would be increased by 50? eg. after the 12-15min mark or something?
Rogue at @26:08 "those are rookie numbers"
I do still wonder if lurker broodlord is a viable unit comp against a turtle terran like this.
Unfortunately, no
Broodlords are a little bit inefficient atm
The ending was brutal...Terran is OP.
Raynor (Terran) and Clem (Zerg) in an hour and 40 min Bo5?! let's do this!
Lowko, Marines only need to know what 1+1 is, meanwhile, ghosts, on the other hand, need a academy to know how to snipe and EMP stuff...lol
I think the sensor towers were just trolling clem haha
Don’t worry Lowko, we won’t remind you of the video before yesterday in 3 years
The Lowko news is on, time to see some plays be made! :)
"Oui oui la vache qui rit" is literally the rudest thing a french man could ever say to anybody.
No one has made it further in big tournaments than Uthermal playing random.
Oui, oui ! la vache qui rit ! 😂
Je dit ça tout les jours
Hot take: dark on adhd medication is the best sc2 player
When I watch Zerg's losing I always see them having no siege capabilities. So if anything needs a buff that's what is needed. Personally I petition a Roach/Ravager buff for the late game. Like give them a tectonic destabilizer upgrade on biles and increases their range by 2. Then reduce all unit cost by 20%.
What if we allow Zerglings to run under Ultralisks or just remove unit collision for the smaller units?
This is theoretically what broodlords are supposed to be.
@@kosmosXcannon That's a pretty amazing buff for the Ultra but still not enough. They need this plus something like a +300 hp buff or a Charge ability.
@@PhysicsGamer Yeah they should be siege masters but the broodlings are weak. Plus broodlords get easily sniped and they are slow. Broodlords need to get increased dmg to buildings to be atleast be good at sieging. And maybe make the broodlings stack.
@@Heavenfire_Dragon9561
Maybe make them take 50% or less spell damage?
I m freetime chessplayer, and i can say that there is a bit complaining about the first-move-right for white, and players with black often have the feeling, that they lose because of that ONE move.
Also there are lots of complains about certain opening systems e.g. Ruy-Lopez, Queensgambit.
And like in StarCraft you have to learn how to play against 😁
0:13:35
"He wanted to deal a bunch of damage, but he never really got a lot of damage done,
He took damage instead at home and he just... kind of fizzled out, as time went on,
What exactly can we do
In game number two..."
Really? Noone noticed this pure SC2 poetry?
I think best Random player in the world is actually Uthermal that play every race as cheese. I watched him play, and maybe he is not best of the best with any of it, he can play all of them really great in GM elo.
What if you added a + 4 attack defence to zerg as an upgradable (that costs money) once the game hits 20 mi? That could force teran to avoid turtling.
I'd say reduce ghost hp instead of it's damage. It's a light unit with close to the hp of a marauder. In BW they had 60(?)
The equivalent of building armor would be shield upgrade and Lair/hatchery (but that is a high cost and per building, but it's more hp...)
nah, i rather see its damage reduced, game is explosive enough as it is
Ghosts are already the third-most fragile caster. Templar are glorious sitting ducks at 40+40hp no armor and slow speed, Infestors have 90, Ghosts 100. But take a look at the flying ones? Raven -140hp, 1 armor. Viper - 150hp, 1 armor. Oracle - 100+60hp though no armor.
The problem is that most high tech units are expensive, and Snipe and Abduct basically read "that's a nice unit you have there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it". If you look at the ZvZ late game, it basically ends up at a Marine-Tank-Ghost imitation with Hydra-Lurker-Viper because the concept is strong.
Reynor off race? I click
The polar bear is actually an Ursadon in this case
How about a hive-tech upgrade that lets the zerg produce 50 zerglings once, with supply no count.
idk, still loving that overseer strat xD
51:30 - Not anymore NERFED!!! lmao its almost like he knew
The Ghost is still OP. Nerf the EMP spell.
reynor and clem has been doing this years ago. lmao. back then these two would have lots of match/scrims and would have hilarious banters --- majority of those, reynor had the last laugh lol.
I'm sure there's complaining in chess too as the queen is so OP!
"If the maximum supply for zerg was 250..." In the very late game, couldn't it be? With a big bank and APM to spare, why not spore crawler trick all your drones at once?
Has there ever been a random only tournament?
Terran late game imba Someone call Harstem
what if ultras were half size, half supply, and half damage? I feel like the biggest issue with ultras is how big they are, but I don't really know much about the meta. Obviously ghosts could still kill t hem, but if you could mass them, maybe it would work?
Looks like reynor can match clems terran with a little time spent on tightening up things
Seeing Clem as Zerg? Like right away!
"Sex is nice and all, but have you ever fungal'd 20 ghosts?😏"- Lowko 2024
Clem making Zerg look OP.
Dude is refraining so hard from putting game of the year in the title.
Always like this duo play agasinst each other. while we ranting on the balance, they just chill and enjoy the game~
talking about balance, not that I have any complaint especially I havn't playing much, but it seems that the cost inefficiency for zert is way off the chart. A year or two ago, Zerg is usually seeing losing like 20%-30% more resource and they might have a chance, now it is common seeing Zerg losing like 40% more resources, I do think Bliz has been nerfing Zerg way too much, but then we saw Zerg still holding themselves and I have no idea how...
for Swamhost, I do hope Bliz would make it an anti air unit, like a carrier, that maybe only able to release locus when rooted as in compaign, Zerg's anti air options are too limited IMO.
I’ll send my distaste for the lack of lowko intro to your HR team.
Just started watching, and I keep assuming Lowko is just getting the player names wrong, but this time it is I who is mistaken :D