Lawyer Reacts: Jennifer Crumbly Cross + A First Person Closing Argument like I've NEVER Heard Before
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- Опубліковано 1 лют 2024
- #lawyeryouknow #oxfordhighschool #ethancrumbley
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There is a difference between being ignorant of your child’s emotional struggles, and being intentionally ignorant because that knowledge would inconvenience you.
Bingo!
If you live in the same house, you see each other . Parenting is a tuff job that love substains you. If your child is unhappy , it's natural to try and provide things to get a smile out of a teenager . But to have boundaries, consequences. That's what missing in parenting today .
💯Exactly.👍
Well said I have been a teacher and now am a psych RN and I agree this is a rare case indeed bc any reasonable, caring parent wouldn't be so checked out from the life of her troubled son and any reasonable or caring or aware parent would NOT buy this kid a gun... and when presented with the pictures he drew would have the time (both parents had flexible jobs) to take their kid home....and I am watching the testimony/evidence/behavior on the stand, etc and from what I have seen and heard...if I were a juror my view would be a great injustice to not deter others from such rare cases ...all this fear of it setting a scary precedent...no...this was egregious negligence and neglect of her son and his needs...I think it was a really bad idea for her to go on the stand...she was cold, unconvincing in her defense and I would have no issue as a juror finding her guilty...
@@storkbat well said. I truly disliked defenses attempt to normalize it as “we’re all bad parents.” Yes, no one’s perfect. That’s not the issue. Glad to have the perspective of a professional!
The most damming of the evidence vs Jennifer is her own testimony where she says should wouldn’t have done anything differently in retrospect.
To say that she would have changed something would have been admitting guilt. It would have been admitting that if she changed any of her actions, the deaths would not have occurred.
...she meant...knowing what she knew at that time. Of course she would do things differently knowing what she knows today; she would-anyone would- prevent her son from shooting up the school and killing people!
I can see how someone with no sense of responsibility, such as JC, would think this. In reality, as parents, we will always feel like we should have or could have done something different. She showed none of this. She takes zero responsibility for what occurred.
@@jacquiemadrigal8528 that was my point. My kids are grown and I still think I could have done things differently. I have never heard a parent say that they would not have done anything differently in retrospect. And in this type of circumstance especially. If I was on the jury, that would have influenced me to find her guilty.
@@marjorielynch6891I believe that pushed them over the edge. I am not sure SS prepped her well enough to testify. She may have - well never know - but she came across very unfeeling, not compassionate, cold, and rough around the edges. I don’t know how she didn’t sob during her testimony, but I’ve said all along - this woman took care of EVERYTHING in that home. Husband couldn’t hold a job, didn’t have much of a leadership role…I think she just believes she’s the one who has to be strong all the time.
I was a single mom (still am). I was in sales and had a big national meeting in the morning. My 4 or 5 year old woke up crying so hard that her ears hurt. Middle of the night. I was more worried about my meeting and begged her to go back to sleep. She was so miserable. Then it hit me. How dare I ignore that pain. I gave the meeting to another salesperson and ran my daughter to the ER. DOUBLE ear infections. Omg. I still apologize to her. She’s a lovely 34 year old woman. Shame on me.
Kids are always supposed to be #1. Parenthood ain't no joke. My parents made me #1, when I wouldn't have made me #1.
@@lastjob2011 I totally agree. I’ve been feeling lousy about my daughter’s ears ever since!
@@lindafeldman8587all that matters is that you did come to your senses. I have guilt about talking too much in a pool at a resort to someone & not realizing my 4 year old had walked into the pool, walking to me but I was too deep. It happened so fast but STILL!!! I was about to swim to my left, I turnt my head to my right to check on her playing and what did I see????????
Her big beautiful blue eyes under water RIGHT next to me jumping up and down under water!!! To this day, it HAUNTS ME!
What would have happened had I did swim to my left and not look back to my right until after I took that dunk???
Thank God for us both and for all parents whose children didn’t suffer from our almost worst decisions of our lives.
Now that is a good, responsible, loving parent! Good on you! ❤
We’ve all had moments when we misread a sign from our kids. The thing of it is we need to learn from those moments and do better and you did just that. She’s fine and you’re better for it. ❤️
What crosses that line for me is the text messages. It shows me that Ethan was not just depressed or struggling. He was having visual and auditory hallucinations and he told her that. That is NOT normal, and not something that just randomly resolves itself. Without those, I would find her not guilty. With those texts, showing he WAS telling her that he was seeing and hearing things, that he wasn't sure if it was real, that's enough for me. That plus, the gun being made available to him while having that knowledge, seals the deal for me.
Agree 100%
Boy, I'm on the fence on this. For me, like you, my first thought would have been hallucinations and a psychotic break. I'm speed dialing my kid, reassuring him I am on my way home, speeding to get home and most likely, heading to the nearest Children's Hospital.
But if Ethan's history of being a prankster and dealing with the occult/haunting was as strong and as prevalent as she said, I can see why she missed it. Plus she doesn't seem very intelligent when it comes to emotional or basic psychological issues.
@@LIGal398I didn't watch the whole trial but saw other commenters referencing that the kid had been exposed to the occult - you have to wonder what in heck...hell I guess...was she thinking allowing that?? That is downright DANGEROUS for anybody to be exposed to. Like you, she struck me in some ways as a bit dumb, though it generally sounded like she did a good job at work so not unintelligent in all spheres. Maybe the kid needs an exorcism.
@@patriciao5239 I hear you. Kids and the occult..no. What's strange is that she did seem to spend a lot of time with him. But she was so flat emotionally herself. Could she really be that blind to her son's issues? Or was he that good at hiding them?
I read Susan Kliebolds book, written 20 years after Columbine, and it was so raw and riveting. And brutally honest as she tried to look back on her son's role in that awful shooting. And how much he kept hidden from them.
The fact that both she and her husband skipped out after Ethan was arrested says alot. They abandoned their son when he needed them the most.
Yes, he committed a terrible act but he was still their son...and they ran and left him alone to deal with it.
What bothered me the most is that JC said that she wouldnt have changed anything.
I took it that she felt had done everything correctly. Question was Not what she wished she had done differently, it would have been a different response.
That bothered me A LOT
She should have at least said that she wished she had made sure the gun was secured in the safe with the cable lock.
Right?! How about I wish I had been a responsible gun owner which is literally the only factor here that could have 100% prevented this.
How about when she said, I wish he had killed us instead. @@ce4812 She believed the gun was responsibly taken care of; her husband did that. She did not know so how would she do anything different?
We have a friend, whose kid was “off” all his life. He was constantly in therapy, on meds etc, and the parents did everything right. He is in prison doing a 25 yr sentence for accessory to murder because he drove the getaway car and helped hide the gun. Doing the right things doesn’t mean your kid can’t do something stupid like this either.
No, but doing the right things does mean you won't be legally culpable, unlike Jennifer Crumbley.
Correct which is why doing NOTHING is guaranteed to fail.
@@deannamcmurtrey5794Not necessarily in JC’s case, but what if parents don’t have the means to provide counseling or therapy? Not everyone has insurance and not all insurance covers therapy. Growing up, no way my parents could have afforded therapy if me or siblings were being difficult or off. Just curious what you think parents could do then?
@@lacsuttle there are resources for low income people. Not nearly enough, for sure, but if they at least TRY, then they did their job as parents.
But, the parents won’t be charged because they parented…..they did everything available to them.
1:14 - Both parents at hearing there was an active shooter at school went to the same conclusion.....that is telling.
The higher burden is NOT to purchase a gun, NOT to inform the school about the gun he definetly drew on his schoolwork, and self absorbed parenting. This was preventable. That’s the issue. A SLIGHT change of behavior from Jennifer would have changed this situation. Yes, she has responsibility.
No one knows that. He could have been referred to counselling and run rings round the therapist, as the Colunbine killers did. He could have gone home that day and murdered other people or people in.the school on another day. The school counsellor was told he had been at a shooting range, and it was known to the Dean that many students hunted with guns. How many people in the US are afraid if they hear a noise in an apparently empty home? Is every one a potential.mass murderer.
The judge was HORRIBLE. She had zero control of that courtroom.
💯 Agree. Needed some Justice Toal in that Court in a big big way!
I agree
She is a terrible judge, any judge would be better. I'd go as far as saying as any one of us in the comments could probably do a better job.
You would think she’d have grown a pair by now after all these years on the bench 🙄
I disagree. She let it play out and is level. Just soft spoken
If they charged the son as an adult, fully legally responsible for himself, how can they also claim the parents are accountable for the actions of a teen who can be seen as an adult?
100%
Same way they can charge the one who served the drunk driver before he killed other's driving!
Because the law states that a minor is the responsibility of the parent
@@jennylynn3075- If he’s a minor then they should be charging him as a minor, no?
I think adult charges should be for the proper ages which are when the brain is usually more fully developed at 24-26. The govt doesn’t want that because then they can’t enlist 18 year olds to throw their life away to war. Plain and simple. Ethan IS a child and I feel was desensitized by the video games, websites, and gun training. Hollywood and movie makers need to change what they produce. I’ve personally experienced violence after someone viewed violence. Input can equal output. I kept my kid from having a phone until 8th grade when she needed one for a school trip. She was embarrassed by teachers asking the kids to use google to do research while she was the only one sent to the library. I was the “bad” parent and only parent I knew to withhold the phone experience from her. Also, no shooting games, ever. We also do not watch horror. It literally causes stress hormones to rush in and hurt us physically. I broke out on my cheeks after watching a violent scene once.
Too much about herself. Saying not wanting to spend time with her kids in front of parents who would give anything to spend time with their kid. Defense attorney very unprofessional!
20:05 here’s where it crosses the line, based on the evidence shown at court:
Her child was exhibiting depression symptoms, several major losses occurring in close proximity.
Her child expressed paranoia and hallucinations directly TO her.
He was drawing gun violence on his school work, looking up gun related products/videos during school hours.
And then, failed to mention that she and her husband had just bought their child a weapon. (The weapon as a matter of fact)
And she, the parent, failed to address those things with the school when they called her in for concerns regarding her son. She not only failed to express those concerns which would have heightened the school professionals alert levels, (which likely would have at minimum lead to a search of his backpack and discovery of the weapon there in,) but also left her son at school with excuses unbefitting healthy parenting.
The reason this is important is because those other children could be alive today had she communicated better with the school and her own child. She didn’t, and while that “may not” make her a “bad parent/person” it doesn’t negate the consequences of those decisions.
Agree 100%
Yes! Yes!! Yes!!!
The only one he told he needed to see a doctor and asked his parents to take was to the friend , but nobody can confirm that he actually told his parents to get him help they denied and he accepted All responsibility of his actions , and this friend he told ended up seeking help himself so who knows what these 2 were up to
The Defense lawyer opened the door on the affair the day before. She said, "I don't care, the door can be open."
My favorite was before cross of JC, she orally motioned to strike portions of her client’s testimony on direct from the day before. I almost fell out of my chair.
She said the door can open for the argument of the police and detectives intimidating the guy she had a affair with that he can loose his job and pensions , the affair has been out , LISTEN carefully next time before you give false info
@@Queenme1978 Point still being... SHE opened the door.
Those are the rules... you open the door and opposing counsel can ask questions about whatever they open the door about.
She had a child who was not responsible enough to brush his teeth with braces on, and she thought he was responsible enough to have a firearm. I don't think that is using common sense logic as a parent.
But there are plenty of kids who didn’t brush their teeth when they have braces on. Just because a kid slacks on brushing their teeth does not mean they’re irresponsible. I just don’t see how without the benefit of hindsight how a parent is supposed to connect their child not wanting to brush his teeth to wanting to commit a mass shooting. I don’t think many parents when they see their child not being fully hygienic conclude their child is planning a mass shooting.
Great point
@@linkjourney422 no friends, three major losses(dog,grandma,only friend) Covid, visibly different(poor hygiene, filthy room) accountability is needed for buying him a gun. If they did not publicly state it was for him no crime just awful choices in parenting.
💯
And they didn’t even bother to secure the gun. According to Jennifer, she didn’t even learn how to secure it, or insist that James do it. And she’s hyper vigilant??
For me, buying him a gun is enough evidence to charge the parents. Gross negligence.
If a teenager stole the parent's car and hit and killed a person, the parent would be charged. This is the same thing.
So what it's the first case! Somebody's gotta be first....
This is Michigan. This is the Midwest Parents buy their kids guns. They teach them to shoot. This is your first amendment right mentality.
@@lastjob2011No.... they would not be unless they could prove gross negligence like the kid had a history of stealing the car without consequences, then leaving the keys out.
They would be sued civilly but not criminally charged.
@@LIGal398 This case sets a precedent. Someone has to be first. If the jury finds her guilty, then parents may face criminal charges instead of only civil as it had been in the past.
It's 2024. A new day.
Never once has JC or her attorney NEVER mentioned the word LOVE.
I think JC did
I believe the hat she loves her her kuds! She’s a defense attorney digging deep, doing her job and trying to get this loser off.
My son took a small kitchen knife to school in his pocket when he was in 6th grade. He showed it to another student, who told a teacher. I was called to the school. It turned out that a carload of high school boys had threatened him on his way home from school the previous day. I took him home (took the day off from work) and we had a really long talk, and he had consequences. In high school, he turned out to be the guy that stuck up for the kids being bullied. Now, as an adult he is a hardworking, law abiding, single dad. Unfortunately, EC never got to have that long talk. I don't know where I stand on this. Involuntary manslaughter seems excessive, and I think that the community is searching for someone blame.
Brava! Your son was very lucky to have such a mom.
You did what a loving mom does.
I agree, I too am conflicted. Laws and legislation needs to change before hauling parents to prison for the actions of their children. I think this will be an appellate issue.
The Prosecutors did everything to make her unlikable- affair, an outside hobby w/ horses, a messy house,… they covered her lifestyle more than the legal reasons she should receive an involuntary manslaughter conviction.
Slippery slope.
I am not conflicted! They very much caused much of his issues,then rather than deal with it, they armed him! Then tried to cover & run! At no time showing any real care or concern for her child or those killed & traumatized! Guilty!
I agree with you! So much more could have been done for Ethan, but involuntary manslaughter is far to excessive. I am praying the jury comes back with not guilty. I don't think this is a precedent we should be setting. If she is found guilty, we are now opening the flood gates for the states to start charging parents with things we never expected. It will allow judges and lawyers to use this case as a reference to allow even more cases, evidence, and charges against parents or caregivers to happen. Where does it end? Jennifer was NOT GROSSLY negligent warranting her being charged with involuntary manslaughter, in my opinion. I can see child neglect, or maybe endangerment, I don't know, but not involuntary manslaughter.
Buying him a gun at 15 and not having 100% control of it could be criminal negligence.
Nothing illegal about buying him a gun. He can’t buy it and he can’t conceal carry, but it is perfectly legal for him to have it. It is legal for him to use it at a range.
I don’t know what the law says in that state. I have a concern with allowing unsupervised access to the gun for a teen with or without mental health issues.
@@MilosgirlSafe storage laws were strengthened in Michigan last year - after the Oxford shooting. Now it is law that guns have to be locked up if there are minors in the home. I live in Michigan. I am not a gun owner, but that’s how interpreted this new legislation.
@@wrestlersmom6466 In Michigan? Ok - I just looked it up. On February 13th, 2024, in Michigan, the law will take effect that the owner of a firearm must have it locked up in the presence of anyone under the age of 18. Of course - there are fines and punishments for the owner of the firearm if a child obtains a gun and hurts or kills someone that also take effect on February 13th. This was enacted due to the Oxford shooting and the shooting at MSU.
@@caroltoot7602 I was trying to find the new law, but it says something about signing waivers, I don’t live in Michigan, and I’m not a lawyer so it’s a little challenging to find the info. I have no idea what happened to my first comment.🤦🏼♀️
The line should be at a bare minimum your child should not have free access to a gun.
Guilty. Gun bought. Gun given. Gun left unsecured. Gun picture created by child. Child not taken home. Mom not telling school that he had just received the gun as a present. Mom not looking in his backpack. You don’t have to even get into the rest of it about her negligence, because she was consumed with her own private life, or that she called him a Whoopsie baby and weird, and seemed not to truly care for him until he impacted her life
She “didn’t refuse to pick up her kid at school.” 2 trained school counselors suggested he would be ok if left with his peers in school.
They lied. Period. If they truly didny want him at school, he wouldn’t have been. It’s makes sense that the asked him if he wanted to go back to class or go home and then have him a note to go back to class. They’re trying to shift blame from the school to the parents.
The counsellors didn't know what she knew. They didn't know he had a gun and ammo. They didn't know he knew how to use a gun. They didn't know he was disturbed and depressed. They didn't know he'd been researching bullets. They didn't know he'd asked his parents for help earlier and hadn't received it (and was, in fact, laughed at and dismissed by them). And she didn't tell them any of these things or even take a moment to talk to her son while in that office. What parent, seeing that picture, and knowing what she knew, would be like, yeah, everything seems fine I guess I'll just be on my way then? As the prosecutor said, she could've taken basic steps any decent parent would've taken, and lives would've been saved.
I don’t think mom was upfront with Shannon on everything
@@thehappywilds1155You're right they didn't know all those things (except shooting guns because I believe one of the people from the school said lots of kids in the area hunt), but doesn't it make it more wierd they didn't check his backpack. They don't know anything about this kid but assumed he was suicidal. Checking his backpack is a simple way to gather more information about whether he was a threat to others or just himself. They didn't even check.
@@thehappywilds1155you’re grasping at straws just like the prosecution. Every single one of your “points” you are stating as fact, are in fact not true & the majority were not even brought up in court & the others proven false. Please stop pretending you’re an atty, knew more than the rest of us with your ridiculous statements of facts that aren’t facts at all, period.
The fact that BOTH parents dropped everything in the middle of a work day to attend the meeting is meaningful to me. As a teacher you wouldn’t believe how many parents we see that don’t even answer their phones, much less attend an inpromptu meeting.
That’s a good point.
I'm not impressed. That's what you're supposed to do as a parent. I am not willing to give them brownie points for that simply because there are some who don't. And dad was a door dash driver, it's not like he's a scheduled hourly employee somewhere so it's not like he left in the middle of a job, he makes his own schedule. The bottom line is they should have removed him and sought treatment for him that day and their refusal to do so lead to the death of four innocent kids.
@@DirtbikeGirlfriend I don’t think she had a choice and from all the testimony even from her own mouth, her parenting had many flaws.Regardless they bought the 15-year-old gun were irresponsible and keeping it put away where he couldn’t get it, and in the end, many innocent lives were taken, and families destroyed.
@@DirtbikeGirlfriend I totally agree, going to the meeting is what a parent is supposed to do. No brownie points. My point was simply that they did it. Therefore I don’t believe they were as “checked out” as the prosecution claimed.
I agree!!
The parents duty was to keep a fire arm in their possession secured from being stolen by their son regardless of his mental state.
Exactly, and the jury foreman (woman) said that she was the last adult to have the gun and did not secure it.
Exactly. We own rifles, shotguns and one hand gun. All secured in a gun safe. Only my husband or myself can access the safe. We have zero ammo for the handgun-it is used only at a gun range so we purchase ammo at the range and use it all there. And only by myself or my husband. Never a child. Period.
And the ammo for our hunting rifles/shotguns is also locked up in a separate safe. Hidden.
Have we raised our kids to know gun safety? Yes. That also includes respect for weapons. We owe our children and their friends a safe environment when they come into our home. That means locking up weapons. Locking up ammo.
Anyone who has guns and children-it is YOUR responsibility to keep those weapons locked up. Period.
Does that mean a parent is always to blame in these circumstances? No.
But this case reeks of neglect.
It reeks of entitlement. And it makes me rage as a mom for that neglected and unwanted teen crying out for help and being ignored by his horrible parents. My heart breaks for the parents who lost their children. I am glad justice is being served
Reasons I think she’s guilty:
She knew more than the school did (owned a gun, he’d been trained to shoot, she bought bullets)
They failed to lock the gun up and only hid it.
The son texted asking for help and she ignored. She didn’t even testify to SPEAKING to Ethan about his distress.
She lied on the stand (continuously contradicted herself).
Yup those points are enough to find her guilty.
And she was running.
Agree. Guilty
AND...they run away and let their son completely alone. So much for helicopter mom.
Ethan had already told the school he had been to the shooting range. So someone involved at the school
Knew they were a gun family as are many others. I think if they saw his drawings, especially the one of the arm aiming an erased gun at a brick wall, they should have looked in his noticeably heavy bag. Ethan was obviously testing the adults and dangling it in front of them and knew it would make them suffer, missing the clues. He thought all this out. I think the parents should only be charged with child neglect and for failing to secure the firearm(dad). Not charge them for the school shootings. They had no idea and were just as shocked. Not brilliant parents, they were both having mental health issues also. Really bad choice to have horses, booze, guns, new tv, and cigarettes and not medical, mental health, support, and food, instead. Can mentally struggling parents help themselves or anyone? I don’t know, it could be genetic and the parents were clueless they actually didn’t know how to really help themselves either. Sad, now they are probably all getting more help than a community generally knows about.
So I'm accountable if my teen doesn't go to school (truancy) but not if they shoot other people with the gun I failed to make sure was locked up, with the bullets I bought him AFTER I refused to get him help when he asked for it and failed to give the school all the pertinent information when they called an urgent meeting regarding his violent drawings and suicidal/homicidal writings, allowing him to stay in school?
💯💯💯
That's a good point!
💯
This is about criminal liability. The parents are certainly civilly liable, no one disputes that.
If your kid is truant are you locked up for 60 years?
I just bought my 15-year-old a gun. I'm called to the school to see a drawing he made of the gun. And I say I didn't really pay much attention to the drawing. (I.e. I had to get back to work).
Sure, he talked about seeing demons in the house. That was him just "messing around".
(I.e. I don't want to be a mother. I just want to have fun.)
My son is 14yo and at the single sight of mental health issues I utilized every resource in my area. I called the crisis line and asked for advice. They suggested we seek therapy and if he had any ideations of harm, to take him to the closest hospital for evaluation SO WE DID. It’s not hard to fathom. This is what you do when you are aware that your kid is having mental health issues and they most likely aren’t telling you every thing. Shannon Smith openly called the shooter “manipulative”. So you go above and beyond to provide not only safety for your child but everyone around your child. And if the evaluation finds nothing - guess what?? It’s over. He comes home and life moves on. But in the chance something is discovered, then at least he is in an immediate place and environment to obtain such help. This was preventable 100%
I don’t know where you live but where I live it’s impossible to find a place to take your child for immediate mental health care unless you have them arrested. And that does more damage than it does good. Then there’s the insurance issue how much is it gonna cost can you afford it do you have that insurance I no longer carry health insurance you know why because it in itself was so overwhelming any disease I had was less stressful than the insurance process itself. And I have to tell you since I got rid of my health insurance at $900 a month my life is way more easier
I just went through the same with my 14 year old, and being in Alaska, that meant driving 6 hours (then eventually only 2 hours) every weekend while she was in long term treatment. She is still in therapy every week.
However, I can't deny that there are other parents who took the exact same actions and their child ended up worse. I was actually afraid because I read many stories of that happening. So I can't give the same 100% guarantee and that is what I would need to convict the parent of something as penalizing as manslaughter. A charge of negligence would have hit it out the park for me because she indeed didn't do enough imo too.
@@user-ov3cw8iy2c the hospital. if your child is struggling with mental health and you have no insurance for them (for some negligent reason when theres gov programs available) then you take them to hospital. you dont make excuses. you dont wait. I am currently below the poverty level and I utilized every resource my county has. if there weren't any in my county, I would find one neighboring that does. not doing anything is how you end up finding your kid hanging in a closet. that image engrained in my head made me do whatever I f'ing could. there.is.no.excuse.
@@CleoPhoenixRT im so sorry you went through this too. its so hard not to be able to help your child yourself. you did the right thing, even though im sure it was financially difficult to make those trips, you did a good thing.
I feel like the worst statement made was when Jennifer said she wouldn’t have changed anything. WTF?
Right? Definitely shows no insight whatsoever. She could have said, "Had I known then what I know now, I would have ....... that would have been better.
In closing, the defense attorney just made herself sound like a bad mom. I would be so humiliated if my mother spoke like that about me and my siblings.
Some lawyers have an unusual idea of what is a vigorous defence of their client.
I think the defense attorney's closing was brilliant. Her point in talking about herself was, "This could be me, or you, or anyone whose kid did something awful." It was exactly the right tack to take, because frankly, this trial is terrifying. No parent is perfect, context is everything, and the DA's office chose to take any number of ordinary reactions and feelings and try to turn them into something grotesque and bizarre.
Totally agree!
Agreed! Shame on the prosecution.....that is what is wrong with the justice system.
Agreed- I really did not like her .. until close. But she was super relatable. The way she went through All those horse photos like, “so what?!” She had a lot of good points- The prosecution lost me on cross. I could absolutely NOT vote to convict JC.
She’s awful.
I agree with you putting Shannon's antics aside. I feel she hit on some good point. Ethan never presented as a risk to others I personally don't feel JC could have foreseen any of this.
Amazing how he is a minor when charging the parents but he is an adult when it came to his own charges.
That's a very good point, I didn't even think of that, but you are right!
Excellent point. The DA wants their cake and to eat it, too.
You act like he is the first school shooter or minor to be charged as an adult!! THE LAW IS THE LAW AND HE WAS A 15 YEAR OLD MINOR AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOTING IS A FACT!!
I’m not sure about Michigan, but there are states that charge a minor as an adult depending on the egregiousness of the murder. For example if it’s a mass murder. Or if the murder specially cruel etc…
GREAT POINT!
lol good god I hope the defenses kids never have to hear this closing 😅😂
I was thinking the same thing and am worried for her kids.
Closing arguments by Jennifer’s attorney were bizarre to me. The defense attorney was talking too much about herself instead & kept mentioning media/ internet when the jury isn’t supposed to consider any of that. The prosecution & judge really dropped the ball by not objecting. What really sealed the deal for me that Jennifer was culpable of these charges was that math worksheet where Ethan drew his gun (very similar to the gun the parents just bought him), wrote about the “world is dead”, “help me, “ “blood everywhere” etc.
It seemed that she was counter acting her own internal issues as she kept messaging the tiktoks aimed at her. This should never have been a part of the defense on any level, consideration.
The tiktoks were her personal issues... not to be used in the defense of defendant.
She was a 🤡
The counselor said that if there would have been a picture with other people in it vs just a gun, he would have acted differently. I was only listening at that point. When I saw the hw picture, I gasped. I am a therapist and have had bloody pictures drawn. Is the standard now Lock down the phone until you can see what their internet searches are, what their texts are as well as go through the room and booksacks.???
A kid crying My Right to privacy has just flown out of the window when these parents are looking at decades in prison.
Having a gun purchased for a kid that he keeps in his room is totally different than locked up in his parents' room. Many people have inherited guns that will be "theirs" when they turn 18 and are obviously STABLE.
Does JC’s attorney realize her kids and their friends are going to listen to her hurtful and embarrassing remarks about them over and over and over again? Her kids deserve privacy, protection, and respect. She owes her children an apology and needs to reevaluate her perspective as a parent.
Yes!
Can I get an Amen! What a jerk of a mother to drag derogatory remarks about her own children into an internationally covered trial. The woman is beyond insensitive and just plain clueless. If I was her teenage daughter who she referred to as a psycho I would refuse to speak with her. Talk about setting your own children to be mercilessly bullied at school!!!!! She’s an idiot.
I could not believe what I was hearing when she made super derogatory statements about her own teenage children. The woman is a clueless moron.
If I was one of her kids and saw this, I'd lose all trust and respect for her and would probably only be listening to my father from now on, and only talking to him or other adult figures in my life if i have issues
My thoughts too right from the beginning. AND, she just kept going on and on and on!!! Not to mention, talking about her relationship with her husband, her home life, and so on and so forth. Despicable...
Ha ha my son text me from his bedroom he’s hungry, I just told my son I’m not cooking tonight and no Uber eats, find something to eat or starve. That text would insinuate I’m a bad mom however, I have more food in my house than the average human. Microwave, air fryer etc convenient food. I worked 17 hours today (from home) and I’m not cooking but none of that appears in my text message.
@Twinsmomma2010 And that is 💯her point about context with regard to how family members text-message back & forth.
Deleting everything now 😅
You are correct I say things like this all the time. My kids always tell me I'm mean and a bad mom because I don't give into their demands. I ignore them alot. (They are 15 and 10).
You know what though? I’d have a few messages like that. I’d also have a tonne of messages showing care, support, asking if they need medical appointments, arranging to take them to medical appointments, messages with their dad about them. It’s not just what is there, it’s about what isn’t there
"Find something to eat or starve".
Wow
The major issue In this WHOLE TRIAL, the jury went home for the weekend. Big mistake !!!!
I thought the same thing. They should’ve gone right into deliberation after the closing arguments. It was only 4:30ish
I agree 👍 💯
Can you say more about that? I think it happened in the last trial I watched where the jury was sent home to “sleep on it” and then they came back to deliberate the next day (I’m not sure if it was a Frida)… why do you feel this was such a big mistake?
The Judge is annoying.During the prosecution cross examination she told him to hurry up because the jury been there all day...He should have enough time to make his point without having to rush
@@commentaryinception I think Jurors are human. It’s been all over the tv,radio,and internet. To assume the jurors have been living in a box for the last 72 hours, is insane. They will be faced with so many opinions from the public. Most people can’t sit for 5 minutes without scrolling on their phones. If not most, All Of the jurors, have come in contact with some type of media influence on this trial, I live in Michigan, it’s plastered all over. At this point, every juror, has had some type of family( especially if they are married, their spouse know they are in court all day, and their spouse is definitely watching the news coverage) .. or media influence
I think there is enough evidence to show that both parents could've prevented this shooting. They never should've given him a gun and they should've taken him home after seeing the violent drawing he made at school. He was crying out for help, and the parents willfully ignored it. The facts speak for themselves and despite all the legal posturing, the spats between the attorneys and their antics, the facts are compelling enough on their own.
Michigan parent of a severely depressed child as a teenager and you better believe I kept a close eye on them. When ur kid is in trouble, to hell with stigma. Get them the help they need, which doesn't include buying them a gun. I am jawdroppingly appalled by this! Is this specifically required by law? Perhaps not, but it's common sense. If ur kid is sick, you get them proper care. That is your responsibility as a parent.
That must have been so heartbreaking for you both. Thank your for being a good parent.
Good parenting saves lives. 💙
Do you feel that she is criminally liable?
How can society consistently charge kids as ADULTS, then claim they’re KIDS _AFTER_ conviction to go after the PARENTS?? 🤷♂️
They’re either an adult or a kid-NOT BOTH, legal system. 😮💨🤦♂️ Pick one & stick to it!
This
Great point!
Excellent point!
I never thought about this, this is an excellent point!
I WAS HOPING we could get an answer to this as to how the state got around this.
As a parent of kids in school, I'm glad they're making an example of these parents.
Well there before the grace of God go you
If you were really worried about your kids you would quit your job and stay home and homeschool them
I am glad my kids have graduated. It is frightening to me how many people want to give Jennifer Crumbley a pass on this.
@@user-ov3cw8iy2c what world do u live in where everyone can just quit their job and homeschool their kids? How about don’t buy your kid a damn gun especially if he has mental issues!!!!
IMO mistakes made on that very day are to blame. 1. The counselor misinterpretation of the drawing led him to think self harm vs a threat to the school. Therefore, leading him to believe it would be best for Ethan to remain in school vs being alone. Catastrophic mistake. 2. Out of 4 adults viewing the drawing, none of them had the slightest inclination to check his backpack. Catastrophic ignorance.
I really thought the defense attorney was brand new. I was shocked when I found out she had been practicing law for 20 plus years!
He reached out for help and she brushed him off it is the parents responsibility to help and understand a child’s cry for help not ignore it
Yep, they should have done more. But what they didn't do does not rise to the level of involuntary manslaughter. If they're going to start this, they better charge parents who ACTUALLY are negligent. This kid had food, a safe home, two bedrooms, games, entertainment, a phone, a laptop, family activities, vacations together, discipline, security, restaurants, at school every day....there are parents out there that don't provide for their child, no security, violence and abuse in the home, no discipline, no one caring about where they're going or what they're doing, no one who answers the phone when the school calls for concerns, often no father or no mother, don't know where they're next meal is coming from...and that child goes out and does something causing death - now THEN I could understand charges like this.
This case is just horrible, and in my opinion sets up the victims families for big disappointment if/when a not guilty verdicts come in. Imagine how they'll feel!? The state is responsible for that.
This whole case was politically motivated by Karen McDonald the entire time. Shame on her.
Where does this slippery slope end though? Behind COUNTLESS felon youths in this country, you can find horribly negligent parents. Do we move next into economically depressed areas in major USA cities and start charging the parents of all youths involved in shootings or assaults? What about dead beat dads? They are the most negligent of all! Should we charge them also? This entire case is a sham!
@@dwmueller76 A COMPLETE SHAM!!
Yep
@@dwmueller76being neglected doesn't make you a school shooter.
I didn’t like the whole atmosphere of this courtroom. The judge was not strict enough with the lawyers, the defense attorney was terrible and the prosecution said inappropriate things at times ( especially in front of the jury).
What did the Prosecution say that was inappropriate?
The judge had all the authority of a substitute teacher. Defence attorneys are often forthright and considering they're trying to save their client that's hardly surprising but the judge should have reined her in.
How hard would it have been to lock up the guns and ammo and keep the keys/code away from their son! My husband and I do it and we have six kids. Our kids actually know better then to try to mess with the guns PLUS they have no way to get ahold of them anyway! It’s not hard !
She didn’t check his bag knowing she was the last person to have the gun.
If she’s found guilty, more and more parents will be jailed for things outside of their control or knowledge. This is dangerous!!!!!
This has not been proven to be beyond their control. They did NOTHING to help Ethan with his depression and mental problems. This applies to very few parents. It's not like the prisons are going to be filled with negligent parents. Very egregious negligence has to be proven.
It is accountability for purchasing a firearm for your child. If you want to have rights you must be responsible. They may have been blind to the glaring signs but they made the choice to arm him. They and they alone provided that gun and did not show concern for their son's mental break. Accountability and responsibility
Twinsmomma2010, I agree!
Yes
If underage kids are drinking in a home and drives home drunk, crashes and harms or kills someone the parents are now liable in many states - I think that buying a gun has more responsibility. There’s a reason 15 yo can’t buy a handgun like this and there are a lot of reasons why.
An adult should be liable and in this case James may have purchased the gun yet Jennifer didn’t object. She encouraged it.
Shannon’s passion in her closing arguments were not directed at the jury but directed at the prosecution who has plucked every one of her nerves throughout the whole process lol
Hahhaah! And at TikTok. :)
She acted like a whiny spoiled brat throughout the trial.
Oh my gosh! She so acted like an unprofessional spoiled child. Her facial expressions were insane! She totally gave glaring mean looks to just about everyone! This was a circus! Smh
I just came across a video of police finding the Crumblyes and Shannon made a statement for the news reporters and was piss drunk 🤣🤣🤣 slurring her words and had eyes wide like a deer in headlights…. Omg hilarious
@@dalephillips3730 where?
The judge was too lenient. Initially I was concerned about Shannon, but she sort of won me over because she's actually very relatable in a disarming way.
she was nervous, you see her shaking, she didn't know how she would react to being filmed until it happens.
Whiny, complaining unprofessional atty.
The judge has allowed certain things to get in when she should have shut it down.
And why did she not allow mental health professionals?
Like for example? Truly curious what she should not have sllowed on
I couldn’t even hear the damn judge ever!
Shannon smith wasn’t called to the school emergently
She was making the State’s arguments for them!
Every time the defense objected, the judge would turn to the witness, and ask the question herself. Jaw-dropping.
Ultimately i agree with peter that this is a situation where civil courts are more appropriate than crimminal charges.
To agree I can see that I think it went criminal when they didn't disclose the gun info to the school or info that he was hearing voices because if school knew just that they would have had probable cause to check his back pack
@@beverlyhunter4182so not ‘disclosing’ everything about their lifestyle puts parents in the criminal zone?
@@patriciafredal6308 She said nothing about lifestyle.
@@patriciafredal6308 not everything just that their son had a weapon. Stopped home to make sure weapon was secure. Gun ownership is a right but common sense safe storage is a responsibility. You are legally responsible for minor children.
@@patriciafredal6308 no they only needed to disclose they had bought a gun for their son and had access to it even though they said it was locked up..if it was locked away how the he'll did he get to it...
In the Oxford (Oakland County) area of MI there is a central intake for mental/behavioral health. It has a crisis line which also does intake. During intake they obtain info and do screenings and assess priority and facilitate care. They would have screened for depression and suicidal ideation. They would have assessed for risk of suicide (there's a screening tool). As part of that they directly ask about weapons or access to weapons. They specifically ask about guns. They also ask about hallucinations/hearing voices/and homicidal (feeling of wanting to harm others).
Common ground staff can arrange for high priority same day services or emergency services. If a lower priority is assessed but supervision is needed they have a 'holding' area with beds. In low priority situations they facilitate appointments at a later date w/ providers.
The school counselor stated that they were worried about suicidal ideation/self harm. Had they told the parents about the common ground # directly, rather than just handing them a 'list of resources', and/or offered (pushed) to have the family call the number while in the office with the counselors support this may have had a different ending. I think the message isn't going to be 'don't get your kid help'- I think it's going to be we are going to hold you responsible if you ignore signs of mental or behavioral issues and fail to get help for your child and they then hurt others.
On another note: The mother had 2 prescription bottles of Adderall and one of Xanax when they were found in Detroit. Assuming the prescriptions were in her name - then she was getting mental health treatment for herself. This is speculation- if the Adderall was rxed for ADHD and she truly has it (did not come out in court so may have been using for another reason) then there's a good chance Ethan could have it too. The complaints about difficulty with school work/ low grades/difficulty finishing or turning in assignments-messiness w/ difficulty in cleaning his room and the use of a 'second room', and the difficulty with brushing his teeth (13 cavities after braces) are all characteristic of ADHD. The treatment is not 'punishment'. Speculation- but if so- she got herself help but failed to see or care about similar issues with her son. This is not to say that ADHD = violence. It's another example of her not taking the time or caring to recognize signs of mental health/behavioral health issues in her son and seek evaluation and treatment, a failure of parental duties.
She also did not put him on her insurance when there was a 'change of life' situation - loss of insurance w/ loss of employment of father. She was waiting for the next open enrollment. She didn't have to wait- she choose to wait.
Going back to the Xanax- there are text messages between the mother and father discussing an incident with Ethan (the one where he wakes up in their room/bed) and they discuss thoughts about giving Ethan Xanax or melatonin (think 1/2 of a melatonin pill).
They knew he had issues. The school did a crappy job but did notify them of concerns. The drawings and in particular the spontaneous writing about the voices combined with the drawings was an ominous sign. All concerned noted that recent losses had impacted Ethan. J.C. felt the need to share the picture with several people. The school counselor felt that Ethan was at risk of harm to himself/ suicidal ideation. You don't give a gun to someone who is thought to be suicidal. You ensure they do not have access to a gun. Also- despite the schools claim that they didn't see him as a threat to others- when one is suicidal they can very easily wind up homicidal - especially when taking action. A common method is actually called 'suicide by cop'- another version is 'murder/suicide'- some school shooters / mass shooters do it expecting to either be shot themselves or to shoot themselves.
Back to the meds- Adderall / Xanax/ Alcohol - interesting mix.
Or she was doing drugs like she had been before. She gained weight in prison, likely due to no Adderall. It is almost like meth.
I worked for commonground. Right in the Oakland country jail complex
His friend was sent for mental treatment…. If my son’s only friend was checked in to a treatment center I would be more questioning if my own son’s behavior
His friend had went to a treatment facility for OCD, right?
Don’t buy a disturbed “child” a gun. Don’t. Just don’t.
Don’t buy any child a gun.
💯 and anyone who argues *this* is a scary human being imho.
@@SSHEMS11I have 5 boys. All hunters. Deer, quail, duck, dove, turkey… all the things. All have been taught how to handle a gun safely since they were very young. Youngest is 18 now. They all own multiple guns. All take it very seriously. They learned as children just how serious it is. Responsible gun ownership is the key. These parents were never irresponsible.
Guilty of negligence, not guilty of criminal negligence..
Agree.
Agreed!
Agree
To me, if I can take the states “facts” and make a plausible argument from the outside looking in and then take the totality of what she’s testified to along with their facts, and make the determination either could be true… it’s a hung jury
This is where I’m am. I can see how the state would come to their conclusions, however I can also look at it from her position & factor in all the things going on in that situation and it’s not so clear cut. I have known kids/parents who’ve been on both sides of the argument too who did and didn’t get help.
Nothing is more important than being there for your kids.
That lawyer put herself in EVERYTHING
Going in I thought good, parents who are irresponsible with their guns should be held accountable. After watching the trial, i dont think they should have brought the charges. The parents tried to teach him safe responsible gun handling. He chose to do horrible unimaginable things. Her son ruined her life as well. 😢 its such a tragic situation for all
there is no excuse for allowing him access to a firearm given what they already knew about his mental state. None. If people want their teens to know how to shoot and hunt thats fine, but that doesn't mean they get access to the fire arm unsupervised.
@nicci337 listening to her testimony, they didn't give him unsupervised access to it. They kept it up. He got it out without their knowledge.
@@jessicawilliams4627 that should not have been possible, it should not have been in the house at that point, and at the absolute minimum it should have been in a locked gun safe he had no ability to access. You know they brought it 4 days before the shooting right?. I am not saying I don't believe parents should have guns in homes or that teens shouldn't be able to shoot or to hunt. All parents have obligations to secure the gun in the home so it cant be accessed unsupervised, hiding it doesn't count. Once they knew any of the following, that he was depressed, hallucinating , saw the picture it shouldn't have been there at all.
@nicci337 I don't disagree, but I believe she tried. She failed, but she tried. I do not believe the state proved their case on these charges against her. If he had taken their car and driven it into the school killing 4 people, would these charges exist? I don't believe so. This belongs in civil court. Not criminal. The SCHOOL, however, should be held responsible. They advised her to let him stay. Huge difference from the way the media portrayed it. Absolutely unacceptable
I was troubled by how much objectionwise was discussed between attorneys and judge, during the trial, in front of the jury. Why wasn't it done quietly at the bench or excuse the jurors?
The speaking objections were wild.
Courtroom too small. The judge should have been more firm about speaking objections and dismissing the jury at times but I felt like she did a good job at showing fairness without getting worked up herself.
@@nora__ Yup. Why is that room even a courtroom? Both counsels were on top of each other. Beyond time to remodel or build a new courthouse!
Because the prosecutors wanted to open the door without the defense having actually opened it.
Agree, it was awful. For a trial of this magnitude, I don’t see why they couldn’t or didn’t get a more appropriate space.
Safeguarding the defendant’s rights shouldn’t be based on whether the court has a crap space or not.
In regards to her "phone deleting messages every year." Any lawyer with an active and ongoing case, deleting this messages would be wild.
Her attorney lied throughout the trial and is whiny/unprofessional. Imagine on day one of trial she said she could kill herself because she couldn't locate whatever information she was looking for. She started crying when the video of the shooting was played and said she never watched it because it was irrelevant to the case. So many instances of this attorney saying she never got evidence when she got it but never had time to review it. The attorney in my opinion takes no accountability just like her client. The judge repeatedly pointed out her untrue claims to the court. She actually thought the shooter should take the stand. Dah, his attorneys said he would take the 5th and she kept bringing it up. At least the shooter took responsibility. At least the shooter recognized that he needed help. He was cutting off animals heads.
@@janmurr8447 The narcissist doesn't fall far from the tree.
I like the last comment prosecution said she didn’t lose everything her son is still alive, I thought that was a powerful last statement.
I'm having a hard time getting to guilty here....
I am too. I think it’s because I have a teen boy and all kids are horrible this day and age but I also have a troubled son. This case definitely makes me open my eyes.
As a single mom I did my best. I did my best raising them but had plenty of critics. Still can't get to guilty
My husband is a retired prosecutor and trial lawyer. He was majoring in accounting. We had our son in therapy since he was 11…psychiatrist, meds, inpatient care! However nothing worked ! He was so happy at starting college at Ole Miss. A 20 year old deputy knocks on our back patio door and says in front of our 8 year old and said “I was told to come tell your son was found dead in Oxford “and just walks off. My point being is even though we were still getting him treatment. He committed suicide! We had no indication this was going to happen! He was home the weekend before, met his dad at all the football games. He was in a great mood and seemed so happy. My point being is sometimes no matter what your child is going through you , never know, for sure! We lost our baby on October 6 2023! I do not think that Jennifer is guilty! He called , me and baby sister @ 2:42 and TOD was 4:13 pm. His toxicology test was completely negative of drugs and alcohol. Most of the time people do that, the give no indication. Look at Robin Williams! As a wife to an attorney, I understand what she was doing!
I am so so very sorry for your loss. You did everything you possibly could for him. I have no doubt that your love and persistence kept him here as long as he was here. ❤️🩹
So very sorry for your loss 🙏😞
I’m so sorry for your loss. We’ve had three years now of risk with our daughter. Some of her most harmful instances have been right after she had super happy phone calls with me. I find it so hard now to be happy when she appears happy because I fear that it’s not real. 💜
Im really sorry for your loss. I totally agree when people commit suicide they often appear upbeat as they are '"taking control" over their lives. I don't think JC or her husband are guilty either, it's just an unfortunate chain of events. It feels like a bit of a witch hunt to me.
I’m so sorry for your incredible loss. My 20 yr old nephew that I raised for over 6 years committed suicide on 2/2/2023. The grief journey is already a journey I wish no one ever had to take, the grief after a suicide is something totally different. The unending questions, doubts, and reevaluating of every interaction seems to be never ending. Just know you’re not alone and there are lots of people out there sending prayers and/or positivity your way.
This judge has allowed things to go CRAZY in that courtroom and it has totally made a mockery of this VERY IMPORTANT case!!!!! I feel like the real issue has been lost!
I totally agree😢😢😢
Peter made such good points about civil v criminal, I dont think people are understanding this...she CAN be held responsible, be punished (if having your child become a school shooter and being put on trial and losing everything as well as being publicly hated and harassed isnt enough for you) without being CRIMINALLY held responsible.
Absolutely!!!!
Honestly I think this whole thing is our way of making ourselves feel better. The reality is that most mental health institutions are incapable of treating severe psychiatric conditions. It doesn't really matter how "good" a parent is. If a kid is off, there isn't systemic help strong enough to keep them stable.
The actual process of treating/managing severe mental illness takes years if not a lifetime. It requires months residential treatment, then a step-down to daily programs, then partial out patient, then full out patient. It's a hugely expensive process, and only the richest among us actually have the time and money to do it. Assuming you can afford it, the likelihood that anyone taking care of you will have more than a month of experience is just about zero. The hospitals pay their employees nothing so the staff is a revolving door of interns.
I'm not saying that mental health care can't help anyone. It can. But it's way easier to find a good out patient psychologist for anxiety and depression than it is to access a high quality hospital that can actually help you if you have higher support needs. The idea that Ethan would've been magically fixed if his parents had just parented better is probably a pipe dream. In reality, his violent behavior might've been delayed until he was older and could access weapons on his own, but that's about it.
In my opinion, punishing individuals lets us pretend we're doing something while maintaining the status quo. Fixing mental health infrastructure is hard and expensive. Prosecuting one lady is way cheaper.
He’s old enough to clean his own room!!!!!!!!!
The defense attorney, Ms.S.Smith, who I thought abysmal the entire trial, delivered one of the most powerful closing counter arguments I’ve heard. Wow! Peter, you were wise to this.
I agree with you 100%. She made relatable comments and I think that will pull the jurors in. I pray🙏🏻💕🐾🐾🙏🏻
Exactly. She was outstanding and brillant. Just like these epic closing Arguments in the movies
I agree 💯. It was so relatable and refreshing to hear this from SS.... any mother can relate I think...
This feels so incredibly political with our nation's mental health and gun climate.
I think she could have reeled it back with the personal comparisons but she did get to the necessary points in the end.
I found you because of the Crumbly case. She was more concerned with herself than she did for her son or husband. Her son was an accident. Her priorities were herself.
I disagree she was the main breadwinner of the home. Sounds like she had her hands full working all the time and trying to keep her husband working. Just a sad situation all around.
I am leaning towards her being liable but not criminally. It’s a dangerous precedent to set if found guilty
Non of the arguments lead to proving that JC knew or suspected he would do such a crime.
This
No response to that note...no gun lock up..no mental health eval! Guilty!!
For me it’s not any one single argument. It’s the totality
It's the totality. Parents buying gun , and not keeping it locked up. The school feared he was a danger to himself and all they had was that math paper , the school didn't know about the gun or the shooting range or his hearing voices or seeing things that's what she's guilty of
The prosecutor said in closing that they don't have to prove that she knew or suspected he would do such a thing - that isn't the burden they need to overcome to prove guilt.
As a teacher, and someone who worked in customer service for 30 years, I have noticed two important and alarming things happening in America. One, parents try to be their child’s friend, rather than parent, resulting in near feral children. Two, until said parents are hit with consequences that make their lives miserable (jail/fines/forced to attend school with child), the majority do nothing. The government wouldn’t have to step in, if more parents actually parented. When deciding whether or not to have children, men and women need to realize that it is a 24/7, 365 day, 18 year commitment with NO vacations and NO days or nights off, responsibility. Handing a child an electronic screen and buying them things is no substitute for parenting.
It’s more than an 18yr commitment. You’d be a pretty bad parent if you just kick your child out at 18 to fend for themselves and say “Bye, see you later. Guess I’m not your parent anymore”.
Absolutely 💯 FACTS! Couldn't have said it any better myself 👏
That only your opinion you don't know that most parents act like a friend more than a parent that's a far reach
@@kate1830 we know she told him to suck it up 1 time. Does that mean she treated him this way in general. It is amazing how we have some snippets and assume that she is Mommy Dearest.
How about day care? We just accept coopting to ‘certified’ daycare centers even under 18 months cause we ‘need’ to get back to work.
Also, the school could have suspended the boy from school the day they found the violent drawing and had concerns! Put the school principal, vice principal, counselor on trial!
She didn't refuse to take her son home that day.
She said she couldn’t because she HAD to get back to work. She lied ! Her boss said she could have taken him home or bring him to work or James could have taken him door dashing with him.
The reason we're at this point is because we're failing as a society to effectively deal with these situations before they turn into mass shootings. Not sure if this case will resolve anything, but we're in dire need of useful resolutions.
The prosecution focused so much on the affair etc. that it started looking like they had nothing on her but to ruin her reputation! Bad move on the prosecution.
There was so much the prosecution could’ve touched on. The fact that Jennifer said (after 4 people are dead) she wouldn’t do anything different in itself is a massive red flag. The guilt - why did she text Ethan “Ethan don’t do it”. That is guilt. What about her not going to see with in jail? She was too busy trying to get her shit together to run from arrest
I think the fact that they did not lock the gun is where they did wrong....
As a parent who raised boys into adulthood this trial makes me angry.
Not beyond doubt!! Not according to FACTS. Not guilty.
I have no doubts since she is such a liar. Disgraceful throwing her husband under the bus.
@@marycolburn3719everyone lies
The worst thing was that that gun did not have a keyed trigger lock on it. In my opinion, any home with a minor and a gun in it, should have keyed trigger locks. And keep the key with you!
any reasonable parent would have secured the guns after seeing the picture she absolutely contributed to the deaths at that point in a very big way
@@nicci337Ethan’s killing spree started less than 3 hours after his parents first saw the drawing, while he was still at school. Hardly gross negligence.
@@valhallaw NOPE they had enough warning signs to remove the gun before it happened. The only response to that meeting should have been to go home and to secure the guns at a minimum. if you look at the picture theres something thats been missed. Jennifer was known for being sarcastic. The comments he wrote on the note would have been obvious to her that he wanted to hurt people. There is no excuse. I think the school absolutely should have called the police and forced a pysch eval to determine how serious the situation was at that point too.
@@valhallaw Oddly, within 20 minutes of hearing about a shooter at the school, James and Jennifer both knew that their gun and ammo were gone and that Ethan was likely the shooter. And they spent 10 minutes talking about it BEFORE they called 911 to report it.
@@goofygirl1311 Hindsight is 20/20.
I didn’t hear anything at trial that wasn’t also true of thousands and thousands of other teens. Esp during covid.
Thousands of teens are depressed. Thousands of teens seem weird to parents. Thousands have fights with parents over grades and homework. And yes, thousands buy them guns and take them to the range. Sadly, I’d guess thousands don’t secure their guns properly.
I’ve lived in Michigan and other Midwest states with a gun-positive culture. It’s not my gig AT ALL but for many there’s aspects of this case that half the commenters are appalled by, ie buying a gun for a kid, that for others are commonplace.
Gun owner here for my own protection- gun is locked with fingerprint scanner to open. Only 2 people can open it.
Grand babies come to visit-I go out of town-gun/ammunition goes to the home safe and locked.
I have had a hard time with this case (Columbine High School, Denver, Colorado)
However I was not a helicopter mom, I did notice that one of my sons started to withdraw his junior year, immediately talked to pediatrician and had him go to some counseling. With six boys, all were different but not ashamed to admit that this child needed more than just me or dad. So many people are afraid of the stigma of mental health….
by the way, this son is amazing (he’s a pilot now)
I still struggle with this case- I go back and forth.
This is all my opinion and my opinion only.
I found your channel from this case. I live in Michigan and years ago I lived in the city next to Oxford. She needs to be locked up She clearly knew he needed help and did nothing
They went too far with the affair.
I agree. She should never have cheated.
@@Ebiru2387 say what now?!
I see what they were trying to do but the defense saying she found it exciting that she brought others into the affair and told prosecuter it might make you blush was beyond judge should have shut that down since it was said infront of jury
All you cheating parents should be shaking in your skivvies 🤔
No one would have known about the affair. If the defense attorney would not have brought it up. Trying to paint the investigators. As trying to intimidate the affair partner. This is what you can expect when you. Choose to take the stand!! And this poor child was pleading constantly. In his text messages. For help and both parents ignored him. They deserve to be charged and convicted!! I feel like this DA did a great job!!
If a juror goes home and looks up any of this online, they immediately would be dismissed, and if they hide it & it’s later learned, the case is thrown out. They should have never been sent home. They should have went into deliberations immediately until they reached a verdict.
why weren't they sequestered?
@@christina5kids16grands most jurors aren’t sequestered due to the concerns of the jurors rights being violated and the money that it takes to sequester. Those are the 2 main reasons I have heard attorneys on LawTube give in other cases.
@@haleyhopes5774 thank you. With the trial being the first of its kind, and the amount of media all over the world talking about it, they should have spent the $ imo
I’m really troubled by this as well. REALLY troubled. This judge is terrible.
@@GlamGam1964 I’ve been so upset over this whole case that I haven’t been able to sleep. It’s 4:44am here and the jury’s out on whether or not I’ll get some sleep 😏
Had a teen who was depressed and abusing drugs. Took them to a counselor for 1 session. Was told that there was nothing he could help us with bc our teen refused to participate in counseling. 😢
Many years later now and all is well but, we went thru hell trying to help. Can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink.
U attempted to get help, that is the difference. U didn't hand your kid a gun when they walked out on therapy?
Exactly can’t help someone that won’t help them self, if he was really needing and wanting help he could of asked the school if in fact his mother was neglecting him and not listening others were there to listen but he failed to reach out to them
Failing to remove the guns from the home after she was given the pictures he drew by the school was negligence. Not even securing them or taking any steps to prevent him from using them was absolutely gross negligence. Any parent has to secure guns in the home, wether they suspect the minor will use them or not. Once she saw the picture and it demonstrated a possibility he would use them at school represents gross negligence. The fact that she didn't do enough to know the level of the threat doesn't negate the risk, its just an additional element of neglect.
Wasnt the picture he drew the same day? Just a couple hours later...
@@kristyc1046 checking the timeline of events, his parents brought him a new gun 4 days before the shooting. The shooting happened the same day as the school meeting. His parents never locked the guns up, they kept it unlocked in their bedroom. They should have gone immediately from that meeting and removed the guns from the home or at a minimum secured them. There were other signals before the father brought the gun. i think its also important to know that Jennifer "speaks sarcasm" the things Ethan wrote on the note were clearly sarcasm and she should have know he wanted to hurt people at his school. He had already been talking about imagining things being in the home, the parents knew he was dealing with suicidial ideation there is no excuse for leaving a gun in the house unsecured with a teenager in that state of mind let alone buying him a new one.
God forbid a teenager’s horribly messy room becomes grounds for being a bad parent.
No but such poor personal hygiene with braces is depression along with disgusting room and no friends
@@kellyreilly-robinson2130mom was horrible
@@scatterbrain_jane agree all the signs together it is an egregious parenting choice to buy a weapon and arm that 15 yr ols
Not one thing seen by itself is bad, but the accumulation of all of them resulted in 4 dead teenagers.
*two* rooms because she “didn’t want to clean it anymore” (her words)
I was really impressed with the defense’s closing arguments. When this trial started I was annoyed by the defense attorney, but when she questioned the horse barn owner, she won me over. I did a full 180 which I rarely do.
Ditto! Total 180
Ditto..three times!! Totally took the closing out of the Park!
100% I totally agree
I felt the same way. I think her closing, showing the actual texts, vs evidence, then the evidence was pictures with her horse. Spot on making her more human, like you and me. I liked it.
Yep. The first 2 days I was really embarrassed for her but I took a complete 180 on this one.
With regard to the affair questioning, it goes to JC's character, and shows her disconnect from her son, but the focus was more on her, thereby revealing another level of dis-concern for her son's well being.
Half the people on the jury have cheated on their spouse. That don’t make them murders.
@@randygilbert4577Nobody said she's a murderer. She's charged with involuntary manslaughter which is different. The affair isn't just about her character, it's more evidence of her making time to pursue her interests while her son is struggling with his mental health alone. It could suggest that she was willfully ignorant of her son's issues because she didn't want to deal with them.
The problem is they did not secure the gun AND ignored his cries for help. The parents’ negligence was a major part of this tragedy.
Her closing was wild but she got a lot of points across and the prosecutors came across dry and snobby.
Snobby. That's the word I was looking for. I thought whiny. She just sounds like a b. (respectfully lol)
Yes when you talk about yourself and do not remind the jury of evidence … instead talking about her son’s bits and pieces … does make for a less stuffy closing! She is so unprofessional!
I'm just a paralegal, and I go to trial with my boss. I've always had the impression that it's very frowned upon to object to closing arguments. But I've see it happen, and in this case the state should have made many objections!
Yeah, I was stunned when no one objected to discussions about online comments and Tik Tok videos. And that comment about her son sexting penis pics made me squirm... her poor kid.
The school saw the picture and wasn't concerned enough to send him home.
Since when does a 24/7/365 PARENT rely on a 6/5/180 school to tell them when they need to meet their OWN kid’s needs?
@@NomusaMagicalThe school minimized and normalized the situation by not sending him home, suspending or expelling him.
@@kristynlawson383 I apologize. What’s your point? I’m a mom (adult now). I respect and relied on her school as SUPPLEMENT to my parenting. Not INSTEAD OF. If you heard EC’s Miller hearings on UA-cam, you’d have a fuller picture of just how negligent and combative his parents were. In every state, every city .. neighbors only had negative impressions of their drunken yelling and screaming and physically yanking on EC.
THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE HIM. He did what he did. But his horrific parents surely didn’t help. If only he’d run away to Wisconsin treatment facility with his only friend!
@@NomusaMagical Agree with you... I am just saying it is disappointing that the school officials did not see ways to support him and the challenges he was facing because of his rotten parents. It's very sad to think how many children have terrible parents like he did...
@@kristynlawson383 Yes. It’s a combined effort. Parents and school dropped ball. Life has changed so much over time. School officials never needed to “respect kids’ privacy” before. Didn’t think twice about locker sweeps or checking backpacks. In fact, some schools implemented the **clear-only** backpack rule.
The defense attorney was absolutely ridiculous
I agree that the prosecution was determined to assassinate jenifer's character
Just imagine how the victims families will feel when/if a not-guilty verdict comes in. I believe the state really screwed up. The perpetrator of this crime has been sentenced - AS AN ADULT. So WHY is the state charging the parents for parental negligence/involuntary manslaughter!? What th is Karen McDonald doing?! Shame on all of them.
As a mother of 3 boys, 32, 30 and 13 year old, it’s impossible to read their minds especially teenagers. They had two guns in the home before they bought Ethan a gun. How would a mom know that this particular gun purchase would trigger a school shooting. 44:13
I raised 3 boys as well. 36, 35, and 33. The teen years were WILD. They just don't open up like you'd love for them to do - it's so difficult. There is just no possible way to know what's really going on. This case boils my blood. It's crazy to me that they're prosecuting these parents for negligence of a "child" leading to Involuntary manslaughter when they prosecuted Ethan as an "adult" and he was sentenced as an "adult"!🤯) I find McDonald to be snobby whiny lady who was using this case as a platform politically from the very beginning. At the press conference I saw this in her, all the way to the rebuttal closing. Just my opinion of what I've seen.
Imagine how this is setting up the victims families for massive let down if and when the verdict comes in ng!
My 30 year old daughter has shared with me things she did as a teen that I had no clue about. I’m not a fuddy-dud parent either. I told my kids, “I wasn’t an angel teenager and there isn’t much you can do to completely shock me” to encourage them to trust in me that I would not over react and condemn them. So, even when you set the stage in the most kindest way, kids will still hide stuff from parents. Secondly, being a parent is tricky work. You are constantly in a balancing act - trying to give a teenager space to grow and practice autonomy, while providing boundaries; Trying to give them things that they are interested in, without spoiling them; trying to give them privacy and where and when to not trust them. All of those things are judgement calls, they are all different for different kids and parents. This case creates a very slippery slope from which many parents will fall from if it becomes precedent.
@@christina5kids16grands we must be responsible for firearms in our homes. If our boys are severely depressed we know it. If our boys are alone we know it, if our boys are angry we know it. We must be responsible for our kids and our guns. This was blatant irresponsibility. Accountability not a life sentence for this case.
@@kellyreilly-robinson2130 it’s one thing to know you’re son is depressed/alone/angry/etc…it’s a whole other thing to believe your depressed son is homicidal! Very few would believe their child, who they actively provide for and watch over, is capable of this! And there were some issues - sure - but they didn’t have any indication that his issues would ever give birth to this!! I raised 3 sons, and they’re whack jobs in high school. I can see how these parents missed some of the signs. But manslaughter?!?🤯
@@christina5kids16grands I raised a crazy son who did not do these things either. He did not have a gun I purchased him either. He hunted and his father had a secure hand gun. His mother bought him a gun and was not responsive to him.
Accountability around guns and minors is necessary. This is tragic and if my child did this I would be destroyed. I can have empathy and expect accountability. We all should
Calling your only child and oopsy baby is kinda f’ d up.
The line is when your kid comes to you to ask for help. To see a therapist when they ask.
Layman here. As a juror, I think I would be able to ignore the drama, and tone, and attitude, and my general dislike for the defense and make a judgment based on the law. But I shouldn’t HAVE to do all that to be a fair juror and I would resent her putting me in that position. In all honesty, I’m not thrilled with the prosecutor for not raising objects and particularly the judge for allowing this circus performance. The only thing I like about this case is the coverage from this group.
100% agree with you.
I totally agree. I kept asking myself why no one was objecting. But honestly, I can think of numerous times where the state Did object, and instead of overruling or sustaining, the judge decided to ask the witness her own questions, or she gave the prosecution an explanation of the defense's actions... Idk it was just very odd to me. So maybe that's why they stopped objecting? Who knows. But I do agree that they should have lodged objections far more often than they did imo.
@@blockhartinabox : I can’t figure it out myself. The train definitely went off the track somewhere and it felt like the whole thing was left to run amuck. I don’t know. The only thing I know about the law is too avoid it if at all possible.
@@ddominguez2889 : Yeah, I know nothing about the law but It was really hard for me to watch this. It really rubbed me the wrong way.
Pineapple is a swinger.
I am replaying, I agree they want to just make her look bad. I raised two daughters in the same house, one ended up addicted to drugs, PTL she is fine now. The other one never did Drugs. This case scares me because I am sure when my daughter was in active addiction she did things I did not even know about. Yes....I spent thousands of dollars for rehab from the time she was 15 through her her 21st bday. Are they going to start start charging every parent for crimes their children commit??
Only if "every parent" is as neglectful as the Crumbleys.
And it doesn't sound like you were, for the record.
@@deannamcmurtrey5794 It has not been proven that these parents knew how troubled this child was,not all teenagers are truthful to their parents, and can deliver a totally different picture of his life than their parents think he is living! You do not know the circumstances and inner workings of this family,
@@scatterbrain_jane I highly doubt your and your parents circumstances are comparable. At least not if they supported you, and didn't leave firearms and ammo accessible to you.
@@deannamcmurtrey5794neglectful is very subjective. I just do not think you really want to give prosecutors that kind of power
To me, the definition of negligence is the key; I know one can take the “But for” too far, but if she had not bought him the weapon and if she had kept it secure, if she looked at the backpack, if she took him home… many “but fors”
She knew what was going on and refused to do something about it.
As a paralegal with over 20 years experience, I was rather surprised and quite impressed with defense counsel’s closing argument.
I say rather surprised because, much like many other viewers, Shannon Smith’s general courtroom behavior was absolutely aggravating in that it seemed very unprofessional, disorganized, scattered, and childish.
I don’t really like Shannon Smith. I don’t like Jennifer Crumbley. I think she is a terrible parent, and I do think she was somewhat neglectful in general, as well as extremely irresponsible for gifting a 15 year old child a gun.
However, with that said, we are talking about sending someone to prison for a considerable amount of time, stripping them of their freedom, their liberty, and the continuity of their own life for something that many of us could certainly not have foreseen. Hindsight is 20/20, and it’s not at all fair to Monday morning quarterback the contextual complexities of this case.
Should the parents bear responsibility for their child having unfettered access to that gun? Yes, I believe they absolutely should. Should they suffer some sort of consequence for that. I think so. Do I think that the parents could have or should have foreseen the exact events as they transpired? Absolutely not.
👏 👏 👏 THIS!!!
4 teenagers have died…