Gene, you've given me a stroke of genius, as I'm a hundred miles north of Toronto, up here in Canada, I'll get the Pass Labs and tell the wife it's an electric heater for my listening room! That way I can blast Mahler and not freeze to death like I do each winter up here in 17 feet of ice.... in July yet. I am going to look at that NAD tho
Very Interesting!!!! An eye opener! Been an audiophile for 60years. I remember going to the McIntosh amplifier clinic (in the tube days) with my tube amplifier (Bell 2200C) to get it tested. I did buy a Class D power amp years ago. It was trash. I also was aware that there has been continuous R & D work in that area. It's nice to know that Class D has come of age. The results you show are startling. Kudos to you for the testing. Keep it up the great work.
we've had this (ultra high quality class D and class T) for 10+ years but we welcome you to the club. it can also be had for 1/10 the price of the amp he shows here.
Also check out AudioScienceReview, they have measurements/reviews of lots of them. The size and (low) price of some is amazing. Unless you want a piece of art to look at, there is now no need for large boxes/high prices.
Every time something changed in audio and I ran out and purchased, I would go broke! I'll stick to what I have thank you! Thanks for the info Gene, I'll keep it in mind just in case one of my amps kick the bucket. 👍✌️☝️
I played bass for a band some 30 years ago. My amp was tubed, and weighted in at probably 60 pounds. I picked up the bass again several years ago, and I bought an amp that is 800 watts, the size of a 1,000 page book, and weighs 8 pounds. it sounds good. I can carry it in a small bag.The difference in weight, size and power are stellar. It has a tubed and a solid state input, which can be blended.
70s-80s Bass player also. Sounds like an SVT. I have (2) Crown A/B pro amps and an 8-10 SWR Workingman with 2-18 PA bass cabs as a stage rig. Bi-amped setup. Have looked at all the newer class D heads and am amazed at the size/weight. Many jobs today would not allow the old-school Bass Wall. Some are in-ear only. However, my Crown A/B still packs 450W @ 4 ohms with .5% THD. I cannot find a class D amp for a home stereo that comes close without DOUBLE+ the THD numbers. My audiophile UA-cam adversaries are all about Op amp rolling and external linear power supply upgrades just to boost the performance of $150 Class D 2-channel amps. Extra items bring the price up to the $500 range. My pro gear is from the 80s and 90s and STILL performs without missing a beat. Not ready to give up my muscle car just yet. And I mean my Camaro. LOL!
That really is the big advantage of a good class D design - besides size, weight, and efficiency. They sound so neutral and clean, it can seem "too clean" and "dry" to some people whose ears are used to higher distortion of older class A and AB designs. And you can easily get those characteristics to the exact point you prefer by using different preamp stages in front of the class D power stage. It's really the most versatile design currently possible. Any desired sound characteristic can be done relatively cheap and easy.
Hi Gene. Great topic. I have embraced class D and have a few pairs of Class D amps that sound great. I sold my big Bryston 28B3 monoblock amps. I’m not getting any younger and heavy class AB amps are just a pain (literally) to move in and out of my rig. Now I do have some tube gear. But that is a separate beast entirely. But as for solid state, class D has arrived.
I will not "dump" my Class A/B amplifier until it dies, and in that process it will outlast half a dozen Class D amplifiers. The MTBF of a linear power supply is much greater than switch-mode junk. If it should fail, the components in a class A/Bare easy to identify and replace, as opposed to the Class D, which is covered in hundreds of surface-mount boogers. We've not seen manufacturers adjust the price of these "high end" Class D amplifiers, even though they don't contain nearly as much copper and iron, have a dramatically lower shipping weight, and cost a small fraction to manufacture, rather they are enjoying a high markup on these devices. Building devices with lower expected lifespans guarantees a future revenue stream, it fits the "disposable" model, but I wouldn't call it high end. None of us will be handing down our Class D amps to our kids or grandkids like we would a vintage Marantz or Pioneer receiver, this stuff will be in landfills petty soon.
I have the NAD M33 and have read some negative reviews over the past few months. I use them with Klipsch La Scala II speakers and I am blown away with the clarity and detail of this amp.
Auditioned an M33 a few weeks ago. It's almost eerie how good that thing sounds (at least in that room with that content - local high end hifi old school dinosaur style shop)
I auditioned the Nad m33 against the lyngdorf tdai 3400 against my old Yamaha as3000. The Nad was the superior amp. I ultimately chose the lyngdorf only because I preferred roomperfect to Dirac.
A comment on the Nelson Pass amplifier: Nelson Pass does not design his amplifiers for lowest measurable distortion. He voices them for a specific distortion spectrum, that created on purpose after a series of listening tests. So, there you are not measuring unwanted artefacts, it is not mediocrity. It is specific design, which yielded more positive subjective listening tests versus the lowest distortion baseline.
My front speakers are powered by a class D Hypex-based monoblocks, and I'm very satisfied by the SQ as well as the very low heat they produce even after many hours of high SPL listening. As Gene said, the era of the class D is here to stay!
I used to be a class D naysayers until I heard the Bel Canto Ref600M class D monoblocks on my big Psb Imagine T3 towers. I couldn't believe how they brought my speakers to a whole different level with absolutely NO audible distortion! The use the Hypex Ncore module. Class D is going to be the new norm as many amplifier manufacturers are coming out with class D amplifiers.
@@samitch61 A buddy if mine is a high end audio dealer, and initially I had bought a pair of Gold Note monoblocks. My Magnepans ate them alive, which surprised me. I sent them back, and he happened to mention he had a demo pair of 600m monos for a bit more. Hooked them up, and wow...beautiful pairing with the Maggies. Like you said, plenty of power, and really brought them to life. Hope to have them for years to come, bc i surely cant afford to replace them lol
My belief system was shattered when Powersoft put linear amps on life support in the pro sound /touring markets. Dinosaurs are holding on to linear because they need the bulk and size to justify the crazy prices . Then there's the imaginary "sound" which usually got snuffed in a blind test. It hurt me to admit that my McIntosh space heater was getting smoked by a Crown XLS. My NS-1000Ms and wallet couldn't be happier. Letting go is really hard after spending so much money over the years. For myself I just had admit that my Mac loyalty was more mental gymnastics and cost bias than anything coming through my speakers. Great video man!!!!!
I understand that a really expensive unit like the Nad M23 performance is really great, but how about all the cheaper units from like Fosi audio, Ayima and Emotiva ect., if you could test those types of units it would be far more beneficial to the average consumer. Thanks!
@@briannelson4122 what he really needs to compare is the Hypex Nilai or Purifi Eigentakt which run less than half the price of the NAD. In kit form I’ve seen the Nilai at about 1250 usd
Brian that's really up to you when you audition gear.If it sounds good to you that's all that matters.I got out of Hifi for a long time because I was looking and spending for every last detail in the recording.The most important thing is to just enjoy music and the pleasure it gives you!! Cheers!
Wondering what they sound like in comparison. Sometimes tubes and other amplifiers have a more pleasing warm sound. Even if it’s not quite as perfect. Speakers obviously as well. So just because it measures really good doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to sound really good. Wondering what your thoughts are. I know you’re very technical, however sometimes just like records which aren’t perfect or more pleasing to some audiofiles
I agree. I now that amp that measures really well can still sound lifeless, non engaging, sharp etc. It has to pass listening tests as well. With that said, high end class D designs do sound good.
An amp that measures well and simply provides signal gain without adding other distortion is one that will most faithfully reproduce the input source material, just at a louder volume. If it sounds different and doesn't have that chocolaty smooth base and the raspberry tart highs, that's just because you're used to listening to something that does distort the source material. Once the THD and other engineering geek measurements show that two different amplifiers are below some critical numbers, no listener can tell the difference between a class A, AB, or D amplifier. One may be several times better than the other spec wise, but the human listener won't be able to tell. Time and again it's been shown that a double blind test is the only way to go, there's just too much subjective bias going on when people think they know what they're listening to.
There are a number of manufacturers producing class D amplifiers modules like Hypex, Purifi etc. These amps are typically sold to manufacturers that incorporate them into an amplifier design, As a consumer, it's not at all easy to discern who the manufacturers are that are producing class D amps and whose class D module they are using. It would be really helpful to see Audioholics or another publisher research this and produce a current list of class D amp makers and who they source the amp component from. I know from researching this a bit myself that NAD, ATI, PS Audio and a long list of smaller domestic and foreign manufacturers are building switching amplifiers but it's by no means a complete list. Some of the manufacturers disclose whose amp module they're using and whether it's a stock or modified version but not all do. I'm also curious about the reliability and longevity or class D amps compared to class AB amplification. For example, I'm interested in NAD's M 33 amplifier, but I noted that NADs warranty on this product is 3 years. That's not terribly reassuring for a product that lists for $5999. Class AB amp builders like Bryston, Luxman, and McIntosh have warranties that are 20 years and that tells me they trust their build and intend to stand behind it. Last but not least, I have followed the availability of NAD's products for over a year now and it's perfectly clear they have serious supply chain issues as their products, particularly their class D products, are often out of stock for months on end with no expected delivery date. I am definitely interested in class D but I am willing to wait awhile to see how these perform over time and whether or not manufacturers of these products begin to offer more reassuring warranties.
Look for threads on ASR as well as videos here with Dylan of Buckeye amps. I think you'll be impressed with his passion for quality. He seems to be a master of class D amps even though his PhD is in Immunology.
For AV application, agree class D is very appropriate; however, as an owner of several class D amps and class A/B amps, I cannot take the sound of class D for listening into music (i.e. really listening into the music not just background sound) for periods of time over an hour. It just sounds too artificial to me. I like/prefer D for surround application, but not stereo. My D amps are decently high end and I've been to audio shows listening to some of the "best" D amps on the market, and still have the same impression. It is great to look at my power conditioner and see the class D pulling a meer 0.6 amps as compared to a chunky A/B which idles at 1.8 amps. For now I need to have both D and A/B in my lineup as D still butchers the midrange of music, yet has excellent control over bass drivers. In time some form of D topology will probably do it all, particularly if it can be made to sound "tubie" for those of us who love the holographic sound of tube amplifiers.
Class-D audio power amps have totally taken over live sound production. Ten years ago, you could still find linear Crown, JBL, QSC, and Yamaha power amps, but they were relegated to permanent rack-mounted installations that demanded utmost reliability. Early generations of Class D amps had a reputation for sudden infant death syndrome, particularly when their output terminals were shorted. Nowadays, networked remote control DSP features have been fully integrated into professional power amps, simplifying monitoring and maintenance of power amp racks.
The Coda Audio line array I got for my new venue has 7 4-channel amps at 3500 watts per channel. I can't even imagine how large and heavy the amplifier stack would be to put out the same power with class AB.
@@Roof_Pizza Exactly, And? Sound Reinforcement & Studio Monitoring is different from Home Stereo. I've been present at all three. From live concerts to in studio monitoring / recording process. I use to hangout in studios in NYC with my musician friends. What I find surprising still, is most musicians don't necessarily own High-End gear? Although, nowadays studio & home gear are becoming a blur. "Focal" makes some really Great Active(D amplification) & passive speakers.. that are comfortable in either environments. Focal is not the only ones either. JBL has of recent years, attempting to recapture its glory with their very nice Blue baffle monitors. I don't think JBL has dabbled into "Active" yet? Studio playback is closer to Home listening. Thanks to the use of XLR options. I go back to when JBL & Altec Lansing (which are cousins, if not brothers so to speak) ruled studio monitor scene. That was the choice of playback we wanted at home. Mostly all our 70s artist were mastered using them! Sound Reinforcement is a totally different animal. Most of the robust electronics have noisy built in fans for cooling & reliability purposes.
@@alex_stanley Probably a ton? LOL But, as we have learned power isn't the whole story. Early car amps made that clear with their actual power rating & distortion claims checked.
We've been developing our own active studio monitor and have gone with Hypex N-core class D for the amplification. I would NEVER go back to AB now! Great video, thanks Gene!
I have a Peachtree nova500 (class D ) as well as a Marantz (class AB ) integrated amplifier. When I’ve listened to them against each other, they both sound exactly the same. There is absolutely no difference in sound quality. IMHO, class D can run with the big boys.
I have burnt my hand twice in class D 1. Chinese non branded class D from Singapore 2. NAD And high frequency sounded synthetic. Also hard to describe hollow in low end (bass) I need clarity and details not power. Also learnt class D uses sampling which is kind of digital type processing. However blind listening to class D vs class AB,, AB was clear winner Switched back to pure analogue Class AB and very happy.
Hmmm. I have an M28 on Polk Legend series. I want to test a good A/B up against it. Will provide feedback on your comment. Any particular tracks you want me to use to test?
@@Wozzaatwozza I use Momo (Mindi Abair) and for vocals I will always love you (WHitney Houston) and also Subba Laksmi song from Devudu Chesina Manushulu
@@MrUttammaru thanks. I’ve been using SACDs Brothers in Arms, Runours, Hotel California, and Love Box. I compare these to regular CD versions and Apple TV. Also Pink Floyd Division Bell Blu Ray. One track I really love for testing music is Faithless ‘The Garden’ from Sunday 8PM CD
@@MrUttammaru just listened to I will always love you. Haven’t heard it for a few years. I used Tidal playback at 88.2k. I heard noise on her mic in the quiet section at the beginning, the sax is clean. Momo is awesome, 🙏 the bass rocks, so many instruments, I love the percussion. Nice guitar and bass guitar. Thx. It’s a very good recording.
Class D amplification has had a long impression as being less than. Oh has times have obviously changed from that personification. I've had some monolith in my days: Parasound HCA-3500 & the BAT VK-500 (BAT PACK). Room heaters powering KEF 105/3. I've also owned an NAD 2200, as unstable as that amp was. Wasn't great sounding either, to my ears. It simply lacked depth, detail & air. From memory, I had better results with dynamics & speed with a Classé CA-200 & CAP-151 biamping. Definitely more coherency with the one power amp then with the two rig. But the dynamics & speed were so satisfying together. I was hoping to duplicate with the dual mono designs of either the HCA-3500 or with the VK-500? To my dismay, it didn't happen. Probably the synergy was off ? I ended up moving & selling all those high-end pieces in a downsize for vintage gear from a Sansui integrated. AU-D11 ii. I gave up the slam & lowest noise floor for speed & detail. Now if a NAD Class D amp has the speed & detail of a Spectral DMA-180? I'll dig up my ladder & climb back up the "high-end" tree & purchase an NAD M23. Before I go there, I'll give a (pre-owned) Luxman L-509X a go first. For the integrated is redux of simplicity I highly appreciate these days of old. I'll look Gene to see if you've done any integrated amps a thrashing? A Class D integrated? Now that would be interesting too!
There is not only Class D. At high power and voltage levels, "Class I, BCA" by Crown audio (Gerald Stanleys patent used in I-Tech and XTI 6002 amps) will avoid reverse recovery of the MOSFET's body diode vs. standard Class D at the expense of more complexity. Very clever design and the patent will expire soon, so expect to see more amps of those topology in the coming years.....
Thanks Gene I had to learn this on my own because it's not in the Vizio specs. I have class D amplifiers in my Vizio subwoofers. They do a fantastic job in making great sound to my satellite speakers. I don't have any distortion from either my Satellite speakers and there is nothing from Vizio subwoofers are very quiet from any sound other than the bass from the speaker. When they are on you can't tell. Vizio did an excellent job throughout the entire system on the soundbars. On mute you can't tell the power is on.
Yeah man, Class D today is the way to go for sure! I have been interested in it ever since the diy hypex ncore nc400 modules came out and smoked the floor out of other designs. My wish now is for Onkyo/Denon, etc to make an AVR with a good class D module that could provide true 100wpc all channels driven that’s easy to move into position and it’s affordable. Sadly, I believe we are still a numer of years away from that
Yeah, I'd love to see a Class D with support for 7-8 channels (7 you can bi-amp LR, 8 you can bi-amp LCR) so that you can get high quality 5.1. I'd like to see Denon and Marantz do it but I'm not happy with their current pricing. I'd rather see Onkyo and Pioneer make a strong comeback with a fantastic product or a newcomer like Emotiva and Monolith enter the AVR market. Forget all that Atmos nonsense - we can just put it behind us and move forward.
@@techsamurai11 They say run more power than your speakers are rated and of course listen. I just like to see loudspeakers potentials. Now that I am older? I never listen to headphones or car audio. I prefer silence until the time comes. Preserving my hearing.
Atmos nonsense , ya right !! My Hi Fi journey began in 1966 In a PX in Cu Chi S. Viet Nam about the time that Hi Fi turned into Stereo ! In 1967 I went to Hong Kong and bought a Dual TT w/Shure M 44-7 cartridge . I chased tech . every year since and around 1972 I was cutting edge with 4 channel sound ! I then spent over 13 years in the consumer electronics business managing a 27 retail chain of CE stores in California , before starting my own chain of stores . I have never left this hobby for a moment and count among the people that I hung with as Saul Marantz , FFloyd Toole ,Albert Von Scheikert and Kevin Deal . You would be hard pressed to find someone that has loved this hobby and adapted as much as I have . I waited for front projection to mature and enjoyed front projection from the begining with a Panasonic LCD projector before graduating to A Pioneer Elite ,JVC clone and now have a Last generation LCOS JVC projector that throws a great 4 k image to my next JVC laser 8 k projector ! I have a dedicated Home Theater that is in a seperate building that is a 7/4/2 system and am anxiously waiting for my order of a Buckeye 3 channel 1A400 Purifi system (class D ) to power my LCR fronts . I retired in 2009 and live on a couple of acres in Maui to spare my neighbors of the reference level sound that my system outputs ! The DTSX /Atmos sound of everything that is put through my AV/ system is breathtaking and everyone that experiences it is shocked (in a good way ) ! Don't trash anything that you have not experienced ! You a alot of cool stuff to look forward Too !! K @@techsamurai11
Gene I agree, I sold my Class AB amp and am shopping for a class D. I did compare some Class D (Peachtree Gan400, M23, Starkrimson, AHB2 and while they are 80 % of the expensive amps (JC1 Krell etc) they aren't quite as good. Almost though. What is the best class D you have ever listened to?
I just replaced an Onkyo receiver with a small integrated class d amp to test the waters. I can say I'm blown away with the absolute pristine audio I'm enjoying now.
I'm in a similar situation. However, I regret buying the cheapest Tripath amp with only 10W of power. It sounds pristine however! Desktop amps are definitely a trap. All amps should have at least 25W on tap. It doesn't take more space.
Re: Pass Labs measurements, did you look at the spectra of the distortion profile? Low-order harmonic distortion is much more pleasing than higher-order of the same magnitude. Nonetheless, explains why you enjoyed listening to it more than measuring it. ;)
Thank you for this excellent video. Couldn't agree more. Once these amps start using GaNFET's instead of MOSFET's it's going to be the final nail in the coffin for linear amps. PS Word is, is that McIntosh is working on a D amp.
I using class D amp since 2012 and I’m very much satisfied. It’s pioneer sc LX 82. Which has B&O ice module and have the possibility to active bi-amping . I’m Running a pair of TAD S1-EX ( Pioneer), a very difficult speaker to drive. I know I should have gone for a pair of Belcanto monoblock, in future maybe I will. I had pre-power from Copland, and some other power hungry amps, but at the end I’ve sold them and stay with something more efficient. Trust me electricity in Europe is very expensive and if I can get almost same satisfaction from a class D then it’s better to stick with it.
Class D may use less power, be relatively cheaper, lighter in weight but most people buy equipment to produce the most pleasing (versus accurate) sound from their system which is conducive to long term listening; this is why there is still a tremendous demand for tube equipment. Additionally, we all hear differently and our listening rooms vary greatly hence, one size does not fit all!
@@Audioholics You have elitist opinions about the subjectivity of audio preferences. Some people think class D lacks presence and is not enjoyable to listen to, yet you keep arguing specs like that is all that matters. It's 2022 and for some reason people are buying tube amps which are cumbersome and not as clean!?!?
I moved to class d AGD Gran Vivace because of the impressive measurements and initially very impressive sound/listening, BUT, I still prefer the experience, the musical/emotional poor measuring connection I get from my Line Magnetic 845 premium tubes, Border Patrol 300B tubes. So after an impressive, but less enjoyable 18 months, the AGD’s are gone and I’m looking for class A to provide the tube like musicality with SS kick, as well as being stable at under 2 ohm (speaker choice), I’m not aware of any class D or tube amp that can do that. Good for those who can get their fix from Class D, I’m happy for you. Hopefully I’ll be able to return some day.
Was always a Yamaha old fashioned amp man using the likes of P2200, PC2002m and MX-1 to power the NS-1000Ms but the new SMSL SA400 matches the old amps I have pound for pound at one fourth the size. I am thoroughly impressed and for me, its a keeper. Thank you, Gene, for discussing this topic.
I am one that prefers an 1977 Trans-Am over a new Tesla any day of the week. It is the same when it comes to Class D versus Class A, A-B, or Valve amplifiers. In listening, I get bored with Class D's clear, pristine, pleasantness. Do not get me wrong it is wonderful technology and there are several I really enjoyed listening to so this is not Class D amp bashing. However, I do like a little grunge and personality within my system, so for now I will stick with the old school technologies despite their many quirks and failings. I just find a big, beefy, Mac much more fun to listen to than a Bel Canto.
@@povertime6381 Exactly my point! I never said it was a vehicle that was capable of ultimate performance. Many modern vehicles are better engineered, more reliable, and much safer. You enjoyed them for their looks and sense of mystique. How collectible will the SUV be when it has seen 40 plus years? In short, the experience of driving a Trans-Am is for fun, not utility. That being said, GM did not want to be seen as continuing to produce gas guzzlers. When these were being built it was the start of the fuel crisis. So to keep the government off their backs, they and other manufactures often underrated the HP their engines could actually produce.
I would say that in the lower segments the difference is even more profound. Take something like the Sonos Amp: a tiny integrated streaming amp with 2x125W DDFA power. That thing sounds great, drives low impedance loads, and basically puts every AB amplifier that costs twice as much to shame. The same goes for NAD amplifiers with Hypex' "low-end" UcD modules. It's simply amazing.
Please do a blind comparison of this amp and others. You keep saying there are differences in amp sound, but the examples given have been pretty much exceptions or outright faulty designs. I'm not saying there aren't hearable differences between reasonably designed amps operating within their parameters, but healthy skepticism is what this channel has taught me. Cheers!
The good news is now we have better transistor like GFET, which can switching state with terahertz freq. This mean class D using it will be more smooth, the result better than older design.
I'd like to hear the new crop of GaN class d amps. They seem to be a vast improvement over my 2012 class D audio amp. That had a P/s hum and a bit of a vague treble. It was promising because the bass and mids were very good. I hope class D pushes overweight class A and a/b amps back to the archives of audio. I remember when the audio community raged against class A/B, yet-i've heard too soft class A amps.
I have built my own subwoofers. but since I wanted a lot of power I decided to go with Crown to power four 10 inch subs. along with Yamaha RX-A6A. I configure the speakers to work at a 4-ohm load coming from the crown with a converter box (balanced connection) I connected my sub out to the converter box.(even though I have XLR outputs from my Yamaha. I'm getting 1100 watts. undistorted. I would love to hear your opinion on the Crown XLS series amp. Thank you, Gene,
Thank you for keeping it real and concise! You get right to the brass tacks on what matters in amplifiers and cut through the BS! I have learned more from your ch about what really matters with audio than probably any single other!!
Great review. I use a few speakers that are highly regarded in audiophile circles and are reasonably costly and I currently use Hypex 1200 based mono blocks amplifiers. Now looking a AGD productions amplifiers which are also class D.
I think if you have an amplifier no more than twenty-thirty years old, you probably should not worry of upgrading amplifier at all. And if you just need to buy one, it doesn't matter if it AB or D class, any modern amplifier do their job equally well, I'm pretty sure because I had three quite inexpensive amps from pioneer and yamaha, and I never even thought to upgrade them, was completely satisfied, and, which is more important, there is no difference in sound between them. Say, if you have problems with your loudspeakers, none amplifier will solve this. If you don't have such problems, there's no reason to upgrade amplifier. The only worthy reason to prefer D class over that it is much more "green friendly", as it doesn't waste any energy on heat.
Where can I dump my Pass X600.5's? ;-) That picture of the Pass amp that you showed is not the setreo X350.5 AB amp but a Pass XA200.5, 200 Watts Class A monaural amp weighing in at 160 lbs per channel taking in 700 Watts when idling.
I have nothing against class d amps. they’ve come a long way since their inception. That being said, I have 9 channels of linear amps, 2 being very good monoblocks. None if them are going anywhere…
Class D are very effecient! The problem is when the amplifier circuit get busted u have to spend a lot of money for the chip. Not like the linear amp, u can get what parts u want to replace anytime anywhere at a very low price.
I use the rotel rb1572 class D power amplifier alongside my musical fidelity class A pre amplifier the power this has is unbelievable and the control over the music due to it's power reserve I just love it
I’m not sure measurements actually tell you what you want to know here. A better test is something like the Audio Excellence Canada channel did where they had people listen to a Parasound stack and a PS Audio stack and talk about their impressions and why they might prefer one over the other. Just because something is new doesn’t make it better, and I think it makes less sense to talk about Class AB and Class D in general than to talk about specific amplifiers and their implementation. Or, to quote a certain Australian UA-camr, “good stays good”.
Well stated, but people choose amps based on personal preferences not just impressive lab measurements. It's the reason that tube amps are still popular, and why people prefer certain name brand foods, wines, clothing, watches, cars, etc. over other products that appear to be technically superior.
I know this is already an older video and Gene probably isn't reading these comments anymore. But I just had to comment on one aspect of his testing methodology. The well-understood phenomena of "confirmation bias" has already been talked about before - in fact, I think on this channel. Regardless, here is my comment/suggestion: Next time you do a listening test of some equipment, I respectfully suggest that you perform the listening test FIRST, and THEN do your bench measurements. IMO it is literally impossible for normal humans to escape confirmation bias if the listening test (subjective) is done AFTER you become aware of the bench test results. Keep up the awesome work Gene.
This is a really timely discussion as I’ve been looking hard at amp options for my living room. Looking at just buying another Parasound (A21+) to go with my Anthem STR, but also looking hard at something like an NAD integrated like the M33 instead.
If I'm not mistaken M33 is not even close to this one. Look at stereophile review. I've been there, decided to go with integrated STR. Not great, but not terrible. Awesome preamp but the power amp is loosing a bit of this performance.
Go for blind test, I noticed difference when I wanted to buy ELAC Floor standing FS 248 and carried my NAD and they had Marantz 7000N and was completely taken over by it. Earlier I had Class AB Onkyo but all the hype through youtubers for NAD i fall for it and was happy until I started re-discovering clarity. Year back I visited a consultant in another city who had two Class D amps Pioneer and NAD and other Class AB and took blind test. Please note Class D takes sample rate like digital and when it goes to high frequency amplification that adds noise (kind of jitter) and to eradicate they remove high frequency now to compensate they add high frequency before amplification. Also note KEF has released wireless speakers and for Bass Driver Woofer they are using Class D but for Mids and Highs they are using Class AB. You can take from my experience or can go ahead and burn your money in class D. The analogy of Electric and Fuel combustion is totally wrong that can be used for amp power rating. Please check PS Audio (Class D Stellar are cheap and Class AB BHK are very expensive) even Marantz gave up Class D after Model 30 and back to class AB, all high critical listening amplifiers are Class AB or Class A (gets too hot had demo of old Yamaha at second hand dealer)
What's also not mentioned, or I missed? Is power consumption of Class D Amplification being very low. Easy on the Grid Cali & electric bill too for that matter. Another reason I got out of the 100lbs power amp realities. 👌 I'm liking the Active speaker options nowadays too!
shocking amount of truth to this. i have a friend whos a bit of an audiophile that has this shocking turntable. its bright with a very audible noise floor and the timing seems off but he just reads it as 'bloom' if there is such a thing.
@@johto Your point is? And nope, thats not how it works. A system without noise and distortion will playback an instrument accurately, including the noise and distortion from the instrument itself as you stated. You dont want to add noise and distortion on noise and distortion because thats just dumb.
I have the NAD 388 runing my Dynaudio DM 3/4 and im impressed with the sound .Been in Audio since 1970 had all kind of amps A ,A/B ,tubes and finally went for Power D and never looked back.
This is off topic a bit, but I'd really like to see Gene cover the Minidsp flex or shd. Using either of these as a preamp with dirac and a purifi power amp seems to be state of the art performance for a moderate investment.
SHD straight into Pure Class A Triode monoblocks for me partnered with standmount speakers with a very flat impedance curve. Amps inefficient? yes but it’s a fast, natural, non-fatiguing sound and ok by today’s standard 0.13% THD at 1W may be considered high but it’s mainly second harmonic the most benign and musical harmonic. Oh and multi sub is also employed to ensure the bass remains tight. Now I’m not saying there aren’t better sounding systems out there but I’ve not heard one yet at any price :-)
Ohh, I love that. I don't have the money to buy the actual parts so I keep designing amps at MultiSim and run simulations to check out the distortion patterns and try to improve them. I designed a bunch of linear ones, and now I am at the beginning of designing a class-d, but the simulations take too long to run when it's a switching circuit. But I would love to know the details of the schematics that contribute for the distortion profile of the amp. Right now I don't know much about it, only that it can come from an op-amp that most designs use that could introduce bad distortion when it's not high quality.
Love my muscle cars Gene, but I am going class D. Dipping my toes with a 3-channel Class D very soon here. As always, thank you for uploading these videos for newbies in Audio like myself.
Class D has been bringing us high power, now it is doing it with refinement. A friend is running a Crown XLS2500 to run his beefy system. The Crown has stupid power and, much to my surprise, it didn't sound rough. His 2500 might not be the most refined thing, but it is good, and as for sheer bang for the buck, the Crowns are hard to beat. The NAD M33 has my full attention though. Power and top notch refinement and fidelity. What is not to like?
Have tested Crown XLS 1502 on KEF R11, Arendal 1723 Tower, Sonus Faber Nova V and sounds wonderful on all. The KEF and Arendals previously powered by Denon 8805HA and the Sonus Faber powered by the excellent ATI NCore. Couldn't hear ANY degradation in sound quality...in fact changing out the denon for the much more powerful Crown brought new life into the KEF and Arendals. There impact on the Arendal was much bigger due to those towers being VERY power hungry and rated @ 400watts 4OHM. Am I saying the Crown are the last word in quality....absolutely NOT. But you will really struggle to find better value in the high power segment. Purifi is the aim but just cannot make myself spend the money to get equivalent. Another thought is to sell my denon 8805HA and buy the new denon 3800 which apparently will support Audyessy & Dirac and 4 independent subs and use it as a processor with crowns powering bed layer. Interestings times ahead for value driven people.
@@pumpituphomeboy Excellent! Agree 100%. The newer Crowns also incorporate cool features, really amazing for their price. Gain controls, integrated crossover, active cooling and LEDs indicating over temp and clipping. Seeing the clipping or temp LEDs activate would take some doing on a home audio system. Likely the house would suffer structural damage first 😆 Another good 2 channel bang for the buck class D amp to look at is Parasound's ZoneMaster 2350. Match it to their P6 Preamp for a nice system for a fraction of the cost of the comparable PS Audio setup.
Idle/base consumption is definitely something to consider, an A/B with linear PSU might be 30W/ch, with SMPS 20, these class-Ds (e.g. Purifi) are about 8W/ch idle. 👍
Dude, you were perfect until 12:56 when you started talking about embracing 16 and 32 channel systems and even mentioned the word that should never be mentioned - Atmos. 😄 I want to embrace an affordable 5.1 Perlisten System with the SR8015's performance in Class D allowing bi-amplification of the LCR, all in beautiful wood veneers and level meters that match the Technics SU-G700M2 😁
How interesting ... 🤔 Each time I have replaced my Class AB amplifiers with extremely "good" Class D amps, I've lost interest in listening to my music. ALL of them just lack soul, and leave me wanting my Class AB amp back in my system asap. Just my experience
@@Audioholics Very good thoughts! I've been selling hifi since 1980. Placebo and cognative bias doesn't enter in any more. I have a total of 5 different systems at my home, and friends with their own. I bought ALL of the newest and best digital amps. Not one to try. They are AMAZING in every way!!!! Except to anyone who listens to a LOT of live music as I do. See, I'm a recording engineer with my own studio. So I'm pretty set up to evaluate equipment. I even sold all of the ORIGINAL Classe equipment in my own hifi stores. I am SO blessed to have the experience I do, and that I chose this field for a profession. But the experience has taught me what real live music sounds like intimately .... The very best digital amps just don’t bring the emotional joy of live music, like quality AB amps do. Pick up a used BEL MK1001 Class AB amp for about $750 used. NO DIGITAL AMP made can convey music playback even close to as well. BUT I am on the conatant search for a digital amp that DOES actually sound like music with soul! When it does arrive, I am all in happily! I've tried Purifi, Gan, Hypex, Ice ... it sounds GREAT!!! But not realistic to live music ..... but how would I know? I only have the ability to record and play my own instruments, my own voice, on my own mics and equipment, in ky own recording studio and play that back. If an audio component doesn't play it back FAITHFULLY .... it is not up to my reference recordings standard. I currently own 31 different amplifiers, dating back to the 60s. I personally support class D completely!!! But the chase for lowest noise floor and best SNR has left the sound quality magic behind. Low noise floor and high SNR doesn't equal good sound quality! It just means you can hear the less of the inferior sound quality. Lastly ... all good OLDER hifi salesmen know Pass waa 90% reputation and 10% accuracy! If you would like to contact me ever, I'd happily share a list of sub $2,000 class AB amplifiers which sound considerably better than any class D amp at any price. It's not a matter of comparing noise floors. It's a matter of what gets your foot stomping and your head bobbing. Think this isn't true? It's how I made my living in Hi-Fi as the number one salesman everywhere I went for 40 years nearly. People want good sound in the end. They spend countless hundreds of thousands trying to find it while looking for the new and greatest. Now people are going back to CDs in favor of streaming. New is not always better. This is my message.
I have a Peachtree Nova 300 (class D) on one of my systems, and two Parasound Monoblocks (ClassA/B) for the other. I love both but have never noticed a significant difference in quality.
Great class AB amps with discrete construction are heirloom type products. Even great Class D amps are disposable products. Prices should reflect this. Right now they don't.
You are so right. I have a VTV Purifi EVAL1 that I modified a little. I love it, It's the best amp I have ever owned. My speakers are Merlin TSM and they are great with Purifi power amp.
Nice review - wish I could try out the NAD! My master's thesis in 1982 was a 2-channel, 100 w/ch audio amplifier: DC to 20KHz with under .01% THD. It was a pure analog design (yes - nothing was digitized) What took everyone else so long!!! Load dependency was indeed an issue with my design. I would be interested in the transient and phase response of the NAD. Thanks
Very interesting, thanks. However, what I don’t get is the technical quest for such low distorsion and high signal/noise ratio that testing equipment can hardly measure properly. How can our analog and so imperfect ear even notice the difference ? At least for most of us ?
Wow that Hypex performance really is game changing. Especially on that 3rd harmonic. It may make the subtleties of gear a truly ridiculous pursuit, like what cars did to horse breed selection. What a time to be alive
WeI've just swapped out my Roksan k3 and CXNv2 combo for a CA Evo 150 and am really happy. Such a "clean" sound and love the tight bass. No idea how the Evo measures but it sounds good to me. Hypex Ncore in it.
I moved away from room heaters long ago. My first non A/AB/Tube was a PS Audio GCC 250, which I purchased new when they first introduced it, and still serves wonderfully in my TV system. Having owned probably 8-10 class Ds since then, GaN amps has changed the game. My LSA Voyager GaN 350 @ $3000 MSRP is an absolute steal
How do the Technics Class D offerings compare to the NAD Class D? Also, true, splitting hairs is right. With measurements so good when comparing a quality linear to a quality class D, one may sound more pleasing to your ears than the other, but I doubt you'll hear any difference regarding the measurements. Ultimately how it sounds is what counts, not how efficient it is or how it measures, unless it's going into space. Is a SMPS used for efficiency or is it necessary in a class D for other reasons? They have too many parts - too failure prone and usually need fans to cool them.
I’ve always been and likely always will be will be a staunch advocate of choice. It is nice and indeed, healthy that music lovers have a choice of the classification of amp they purchase to reproduce music. I started to build my hifi system in the early 80s when class D was in its infancy and not well known. Hence, 40 years later my main rig includes pure class A preamp, with the rest of the amplification in the chain being class AB. I don’t foresee that changing any time soon. That having bren said, my nearfield desktop rig in my off is class D and sounds great. Crisp, rich, full bodied and full range. I don’t have a particular bias, but would I will have a choice. That’s why I thing both topographies are here, side by side, for the long term.
Replaced my boat moorings with a cheap but quality class D. Even expected some "glary highs" but all I heard was a nice clean sound, even "warm", because there is no glare/fluffyness that some other admittedly older amps I've heard have. Not the highest power, but more than enough most of the time. I may upgrade to more power and quality some day
Nice video. I have a class D Integrated amp with a tube preamp stage. It sounds great to me. I really don't get to deep into all the measurements. It's more important that it sounds good to me. Measurements are used to design the equipment, but specs on paper don't always mean great sound. Whether it's class A/B, class D, solid state or tubes, I let my ears decide.
specs on paper don't always mean good sound with SPEAKERS - namely because they're not typically measured correctly and the information is not interpreted correctly, and because it's much harder to measure speakers in all relevant dimensions and make sense of that data, though perhaps not impossible. but with amplifiers, measurements are everything. good measurements - assuming they're the right measurements, done correctly, absolutely do guarantee "good sound"... or at least, sound that is CORRECT. the measurements are what tell us if the OUTPUT matches the INPUT but simply scaled up. then it's down to source material and speakers. the amp he showed today, for all intents and purposes, is perfect. if you A/B'd it to something else and could reliably tell the difference in a double blind test and preferred the other amp, that only means that you prefer some kind of distortion. again - with amps, or dacs, specs on paper - the measurements - by DEFINITION mean good sound, if by good we mean correct and free of distortion. it can't get any better or more correct than correct. don't soften the facts with your feelings. speakers are another world entirely, and much more subjective, although some of the numbers still do matter objectively.
@@Artcore103 Thanks for your reply. And God bless you if measurements bring you lots of joy. Everyone has an opinion on this subject. Here is my take. I listen to music with my ears. If it measures well, but doesn't sound good to me, it isn't something I'm going to incorporate in my system. On the other hand, if it sounds great to me but the measurements aren't great by whatever standards are used to measure it, I don't really care because it sounds good to me. Here is an interesting side analogy. Most of the great musicians of all time select the instruments they play based on how it feels and more importantly how it sounds to them. I have never heard of a great musician say they selected their instrument based only on measurements or specifications. Itzhak Pearlman for example, plays a Stradivarius Violin made by the famous Antonio Stradivari. Stradivari made violins from 1644 - 1737. He made them by hand and did not have any sophisticated electronic measurement devices to measure how they sounded. Pearlman selected his violin based on how it felt in his hands and how it sounded. Most violin players will say that a Stradivarius is incomparable in sound to any other violin. Even with sophisticated measuring devices today, no one has produced a violin that sounds like a Stradivarius. Maybe these great musicians, the people who actually make the music we listen to, are all wrong and should use measurements to select their choice of instrument instead of, well, using their ears. I'll keep listening and subjectively select what sounds best to me.
@@neilfisher7999 an instrument is very different, it's not trying to accurately reproduce something else, it's making its own unique sound, and every one sounds different. Measurements would thus be pointless, and also there's no other violin that would theoretically measure just like his stradivarius. But an amplifier is intended to replicate an input signal, so therefore if you want to actually hear what his violin sounds like, the measurements - assuming they're accurate and represent all relevant variables - are literally all that matters. Preference is one thing, we're all entitled to it. But you cannot rationally simply turn off your logic entirely. Your analogy is without merit or comparative value.
@@Artcore103 I prefer to listen to music and enjoy how it sounds. How it measures does not concern me if it sounds good. Music by its very nature is subjective. What is pleasing to the ear of one person is harsh and unpleasant to the next person. Listening to music through some kind of sound system is also subjective. You can measure things till the cows some home. And if that is what you enjoy doing, then so be it. The reason there are so many choices out there when it comes to audio gear is because there is no “end all be all”, or “one size fits all” setup that everyone agrees sounds good. I don’t criticize what other people listen to or listen with. It is their choice. I am sorry you can’t wrap your head around that philosophy. I don’t understand your method either. It doesn’t matter, you have your opinion and I have mine. I play music and sing. I also read music. Maybe you do as well, I don’t know. Again, it doesn’t matter. Buy all the gear you want based on measurements, if that makes you happy. Be happy, don’t criticize others who don’t agree with your methodology.
@@neilfisher7999 I think I was clear but I'll say it again, I have zero criticism for your or anyone else's preference, that's legitimate. I'm merely stating that objectively amplifier quality can be measured and thus good and consistent sound can be 100% ensured. Unlike instruments, two VERY different amplifiers that measure the same - again assuming accurate measurements that account for all relevant variables - WILL sound the same. If you like it warm or bright or bass etc you can use an eq, but at least you know the amplifier can perform an output that matches the input i.e. what is intended. Given what is typically used as mastering equipment in studios, you should have an amp that measures well, though the speakers will always play a more dominant role in the sound. I do play instruments as well hence my issue with the false analogy. Your amplifier isn't an instrument... it's the thing that should accurately play back the instruments that were recorded. However, speakers are unavoidably an instrument to some degree, it is what it is. I prefer speakers to headphones or earbuds even though technically they are less of an instrument and can ensure a more controlled and accurate experience but I find it subjectively inferior.
I have tried the Hypex UCD modules and those are garbage for hifi as they give me listening fatigue. But I guess that they are okay for rear channels in a surround setup og a subwoofer.
@@ThePentosin My speakers are a pair of Ekta Grande, designed by Troels Gravesen (3 way, with Scan-speak revalator drivers). Now I’m using a Gryphon power amp to drive them. I have also used a NAD S300 integrated amplifier which sound similar to the Gryphon power amp that I now use.
@@3Dmaking Well, ucd is over 10 years old. So it fall i line with the point of the video. Your speakers going down to 3ohm might exacerbate the issues with it. Would be interesting to know if the newer ncore would satisfy you.
@@ThePentosin I know. The other amps that I use are +20years. But the impedance load in nothing special from a 4 Ohm speaker. The next amplifier is not going to be anything nCore, but most likely a Parasound Halo JC5 😁
So, I was forced to retire due to disability. I was making pretty good money with my pension and SS, so I began buying some stuff I had wanted for a long time. Like a pair of Adcom 555's; a Carver M-500; a NAD 208 thx; ( I didn't even know NAD made amps this big and powerful! ) Emotiva xda-2 and PT-100 preamp/DACs; and the best of the lot, a pair of immaculate aDs 910s and L810 loudspeakers, plus a room full of bookshelf speakers. Now, my pay has been lowered a bit, so I can't afford the more recent gear, but I already enjoy what I have very much and I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to gather what I consider very good components.
Makes me think of a major loss we had this year in the death of Tommy O'Brien at Digital Amplifier Company. Made one of the best Class D amps for the money, if not the best. Find them used if you can.
The historical problem with class D amps is the passive output filter, And it must be a passive design. A passive filter response is highly dependent on the input and output impedance match. Well as we know a speaker is hardly a constant impedance. IIRC, over 300% variation across the audio band. So that means the output filter is not going to reject the clock signal equally across the audio band. You can only design the filter for a very narrow impedance if you expect a consistent slope. Now I know that Bruno Putsley(sp?) has done some extensive research into this and other class D issues and his products are in fact highly regarded in the high end audio community. I guess it's all about practicality. Just how low does the clock residue need to be? There must be a sweet spot but I would think that would be speaker dependent.. Is Bruno using some kind of feedback to pre-distort the filter and thus further null the clock noise? Kind of like hum with tube amps. You can never totally eliminate hum with AC heating but there is a practical level where it's not really an issue.
There are high end studio monitors with class D amps in them such as Genelec 8351B and they are excellent speakers for analytical music listening not just for studios.
Selecting any products is a mix of specs verses price verse overall experience ...so personally I like the simple option that we research, demo and then simply choose what we like ....not necessary just on specs , or what others like or recommend ! As we all have different tastes ...and with hifi hearing.
I have a new class a/b and a new class d, although the a/b cost $220 more. The a/b is more dynamic and detailed with better bass control. Both are 100wpc and measured superior by Amir. I wouldn't hesitate to get better class d.
Great for active crossovers, not so great with passive. High damping aspect too does not work well with some designs that benefit from a bass overhang.
"bass overhang" sounds like distortion to me - it sounds like the "design" is a flaw... you want the woofer to not follow the output signal but smooth or round it out? i think you're wrong. better control over the woofers is better. if this results in somewhat less full sounding bass / less spl at certain frequencies, EQ it back in. the amp should ideally be in perfect 1:1 control of the speaker position at all times in theory. if i'm missing something do explain i'm open to it.
I've never noted differences in power amp sound to any great degree, with a few exceptions (SETs definitely have a different sound - with notable differences in output tubes as well, and classic Naim has a distinctive sound to my ears). But with Class D, i can say that the lowly ICE power 50ASX2 sounds as good as any Krell, Levinson or Pass amp i've heard (memory only, no direct comparison). The ease of implementation, combined with good sound, means I won't use anything else in any build that demands more power than a pair of 300bs would provide
One exception may be a VFET (Tokin) amp based on the Pass SIT-3. Haven't heard any amp that sounds better than this (with relatively sensitive speakers.) It's incredible. But, I want a Class D for when I'm not doing dedicated listening for power efficiency reasons.
@@asplmn I haven't heard any of Nelson's First Watt designs, but I do know a guy who built the Amp Camp one - Ill have to see if i can borrow it sometime
@@robertbrenner610 the FW stuff is definitely worth playing with -- or building (DIY) -- if you get a chance. The ACA is awesome for the price, but doesn't compete against the SIT stuff. Would love to hear your thoughts if you get a chance to do so! :)
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Gene, you've given me a stroke of genius, as I'm a hundred miles north of Toronto, up here in Canada, I'll get the Pass Labs and tell the wife it's an electric heater for my listening room! That way I can blast Mahler and not freeze to death like I do each winter up here in 17 feet of ice.... in July yet.
I am going to look at that NAD tho
Great idea, Eh?🤣
Ahahhahaah
Very Interesting!!!! An eye opener! Been an audiophile for 60years. I remember going to the McIntosh amplifier clinic (in the tube days) with my tube amplifier (Bell 2200C) to get it tested. I did buy a Class D power amp years ago. It was trash. I also was aware that there has been continuous R & D work in that area. It's nice to know that Class D has come of age. The results you show are startling. Kudos to you for the testing. Keep it up the great work.
we've had this (ultra high quality class D and class T) for 10+ years but we welcome you to the club. it can also be had for 1/10 the price of the amp he shows here.
Also check out AudioScienceReview, they have measurements/reviews of lots of them. The size and (low) price of some is amazing. Unless you want a piece of art to look at, there is now no need for large boxes/high prices.
@@Artcore103 👍
Every time something changed in audio and I ran out and purchased, I would go broke!
I'll stick to what I have thank you!
Thanks for the info Gene, I'll keep it in mind just in case one of my amps kick the bucket. 👍✌️☝️
I played bass for a band some 30 years ago. My amp was tubed, and weighted in at probably 60 pounds. I picked up the bass again several years ago, and I bought an amp that is 800 watts, the size of a 1,000 page book, and weighs 8 pounds. it sounds good. I can carry it in a small bag.The difference in weight, size and power are stellar. It has a tubed and a solid state input, which can be blended.
70s-80s Bass player also. Sounds like an SVT. I have (2) Crown A/B pro amps and an 8-10 SWR Workingman with 2-18 PA bass cabs as a stage rig. Bi-amped setup. Have looked at all the newer class D heads and am amazed at the size/weight. Many jobs today would not allow the old-school Bass Wall. Some are in-ear only. However, my Crown A/B still packs 450W @ 4 ohms with .5% THD. I cannot find a class D amp for a home stereo that comes close without DOUBLE+ the THD numbers. My audiophile UA-cam adversaries are all about Op amp rolling and external linear power supply upgrades just to boost the performance of $150 Class D 2-channel amps. Extra items bring the price up to the $500 range. My pro gear is from the 80s and 90s and STILL performs without missing a beat. Not ready to give up my muscle car just yet. And I mean my Camaro. LOL!
That really is the big advantage of a good class D design - besides size, weight, and efficiency.
They sound so neutral and clean, it can seem "too clean" and "dry" to some people whose ears are used to higher distortion of older class A and AB designs. And you can easily get those characteristics to the exact point you prefer by using different preamp stages in front of the class D power stage.
It's really the most versatile design currently possible. Any desired sound characteristic can be done relatively cheap and easy.
Hi Gene. Great topic. I have embraced class D and have a few pairs of Class D amps that sound great. I sold my big Bryston 28B3 monoblock amps. I’m not getting any younger and heavy class AB amps are just a pain (literally) to move in and out of my rig. Now I do have some tube gear. But that is a separate beast entirely. But as for solid state, class D has arrived.
I will not "dump" my Class A/B amplifier until it dies, and in that process it will outlast half a dozen Class D amplifiers. The MTBF of a linear power supply is much greater than switch-mode junk. If it should fail, the components in a class A/Bare easy to identify and replace, as opposed to the Class D, which is covered in hundreds of surface-mount boogers. We've not seen manufacturers adjust the price of these "high end" Class D amplifiers, even though they don't contain nearly as much copper and iron, have a dramatically lower shipping weight, and cost a small fraction to manufacture, rather they are enjoying a high markup on these devices. Building devices with lower expected lifespans guarantees a future revenue stream, it fits the "disposable" model, but I wouldn't call it high end. None of us will be handing down our Class D amps to our kids or grandkids like we would a vintage Marantz or Pioneer receiver, this stuff will be in landfills petty soon.
I have the NAD M33 and have read some negative reviews over the past few months. I use them with Klipsch La Scala II speakers and I am blown away with the clarity and detail of this amp.
Auditioned an M33 a few weeks ago. It's almost eerie how good that thing sounds (at least in that room with that content - local high end hifi old school dinosaur style shop)
I auditioned the Nad m33 against the lyngdorf tdai 3400 against my old Yamaha as3000. The Nad was the superior amp. I ultimately chose the lyngdorf only because I preferred roomperfect to Dirac.
A comment on the Nelson Pass amplifier: Nelson Pass does not design his amplifiers for lowest measurable distortion. He voices them for a specific distortion spectrum, that created on purpose after a series of listening tests.
So, there you are not measuring unwanted artefacts, it is not mediocrity. It is specific design, which yielded more positive subjective listening tests versus the lowest distortion baseline.
So they know what they are doing. I would call pass labs musical sounding and relatively neutral.
My front speakers are powered by a class D Hypex-based monoblocks, and I'm very satisfied by the SQ as well as the very low heat they produce even after many hours of high SPL listening. As Gene said, the era of the class D is here to stay!
I used to be a class D naysayers until I heard the Bel Canto Ref600M class D monoblocks on my big Psb Imagine T3 towers. I couldn't believe how they brought my speakers to a whole different level with absolutely NO audible distortion! The use the Hypex Ncore module. Class D is going to be the new norm as many amplifier manufacturers are coming out with class D amplifiers.
I have a pair of those beauties. Youre exactly right...they are phenomenal.
There is one class D power amp called the Starkesound and it's supposed to sound a bit like tubes.
@@ajzepp8976 They are excellent amplifiers and very powerful!
@@samitch61 A buddy if mine is a high end audio dealer, and initially I had bought a pair of Gold Note monoblocks. My Magnepans ate them alive, which surprised me. I sent them back, and he happened to mention he had a demo pair of 600m monos for a bit more. Hooked them up, and wow...beautiful pairing with the Maggies. Like you said, plenty of power, and really brought them to life. Hope to have them for years to come, bc i surely cant afford to replace them lol
Play the birthday massacre, their latest released song... I'd almost 💯 guarantee it will distort. Crazy thing it won't distort on class a/b.
I love class D amps, especially the Purifi and the new GaN designs, but I will never give up my Benchmark class AB amp. Can we all get along?
Yep that's SOTA amp for sure
i want one.
i have an LA4 already 😛
I just built and set up a Class a amp and I have never heard such fine sound. Our ears do the critical measurements.
My belief system was shattered when Powersoft put linear amps on life support in the pro sound /touring markets. Dinosaurs are holding on to linear because they need the bulk and size to justify the crazy prices . Then there's the imaginary "sound" which usually got snuffed in a blind test. It hurt me to admit that my McIntosh space heater was getting smoked by a Crown XLS. My NS-1000Ms and wallet couldn't be happier. Letting go is really hard after spending so much money over the years. For myself I just had admit that my Mac loyalty was more mental gymnastics and cost bias than anything coming through my speakers.
Great video man!!!!!
I understand that a really expensive unit like the Nad M23 performance is really great, but how about all the cheaper units from like Fosi audio, Ayima and Emotiva ect., if you could test those types of units it would be far more beneficial to the average consumer. Thanks!
@@briannelson4122 what he really needs to compare is the Hypex Nilai or Purifi Eigentakt which run less than half the price of the NAD. In kit form I’ve seen the Nilai at about 1250 usd
Brian that's really up to you when you audition gear.If it sounds good to you that's all that matters.I got out of Hifi for a long time because I was looking and spending for every last detail in the recording.The most important thing is to just enjoy music and the pleasure it gives you!! Cheers!
Wondering what they sound like in comparison. Sometimes tubes and other amplifiers have a more pleasing warm sound. Even if it’s not quite as perfect. Speakers obviously as well. So just because it measures really good doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to sound really good. Wondering what your thoughts are. I know you’re very technical, however sometimes just like records which aren’t perfect or more pleasing to some audiofiles
I agree. I now that amp that measures really well can still sound lifeless, non engaging, sharp etc. It has to pass listening tests as well. With that said, high end class D designs do sound good.
An amp that measures well and simply provides signal gain without adding other distortion is one that will most faithfully reproduce the input source material, just at a louder volume. If it sounds different and doesn't have that chocolaty smooth base and the raspberry tart highs, that's just because you're used to listening to something that does distort the source material.
Once the THD and other engineering geek measurements show that two different amplifiers are below some critical numbers, no listener can tell the difference between a class A, AB, or D amplifier. One may be several times better than the other spec wise, but the human listener won't be able to tell. Time and again it's been shown that a double blind test is the only way to go, there's just too much subjective bias going on when people think they know what they're listening to.
There are a number of manufacturers producing class D amplifiers modules like Hypex, Purifi etc. These amps are typically sold to manufacturers that incorporate them into an amplifier design, As a consumer, it's not at all easy to discern who the manufacturers are that are producing class D amps and whose class D module they are using. It would be really helpful to see Audioholics or another publisher research this and produce a current list of class D amp makers and who they source the amp component from. I know from researching this a bit myself that NAD, ATI, PS Audio and a long list of smaller domestic and foreign manufacturers are building switching amplifiers but it's by no means a complete list. Some of the manufacturers disclose whose amp module they're using and whether it's a stock or modified version but not all do. I'm also curious about the reliability and longevity or class D amps compared to class AB amplification. For example, I'm interested in NAD's M 33 amplifier, but I noted that NADs warranty on this product is 3 years. That's not terribly reassuring for a product that lists for $5999. Class AB amp builders like Bryston, Luxman, and McIntosh have warranties that are 20 years and that tells me they trust their build and intend to stand behind it. Last but not least, I have followed the availability of NAD's products for over a year now and it's perfectly clear they have serious supply chain issues as their products, particularly their class D products, are often out of stock for months on end with no expected delivery date. I am definitely interested in class D but I am willing to wait awhile to see how these perform over time and whether or not manufacturers of these products begin to offer more reassuring warranties.
Look for threads on ASR as well as videos here with Dylan of Buckeye amps. I think you'll be impressed with his passion for quality. He seems to be a master of class D amps even though his PhD is in Immunology.
I will build a Nilai soon!😊
Gene would you agree that it is precisely this lack of harmonic distortion results in a sterile or lean sound?
Possibly, yes.
Was there a follow up video comparing sound quality of the NAD M23 with other amplifiers like PASS Labs?
I want to know the same thing
For AV application, agree class D is very appropriate; however, as an owner of several class D amps and class A/B amps, I cannot take the sound of class D for listening into music (i.e. really listening into the music not just background sound) for periods of time over an hour. It just sounds too artificial to me. I like/prefer D for surround application, but not stereo. My D amps are decently high end and I've been to audio shows listening to some of the "best" D amps on the market, and still have the same impression. It is great to look at my power conditioner and see the class D pulling a meer 0.6 amps as compared to a chunky A/B which idles at 1.8 amps. For now I need to have both D and A/B in my lineup as D still butchers the midrange of music, yet has excellent control over bass drivers. In time some form of D topology will probably do it all, particularly if it can be made to sound "tubie" for those of us who love the holographic sound of tube amplifiers.
Class-D audio power amps have totally taken over live sound production. Ten years ago, you could still find linear Crown, JBL, QSC, and Yamaha power amps, but they were relegated to permanent rack-mounted installations that demanded utmost reliability. Early generations of Class D amps had a reputation for sudden infant death syndrome, particularly when their output terminals were shorted. Nowadays, networked remote control DSP features have been fully integrated into professional power amps, simplifying monitoring and maintenance of power amp racks.
The Coda Audio line array I got for my new venue has 7 4-channel amps at 3500 watts per channel. I can't even imagine how large and heavy the amplifier stack would be to put out the same power with class AB.
@@Roof_Pizza Exactly, And? Sound Reinforcement & Studio Monitoring is different from Home Stereo.
I've been present at all three. From live concerts to in studio monitoring / recording process. I use to hangout in studios in NYC with my musician friends.
What I find surprising still, is most musicians don't necessarily own High-End gear? Although, nowadays studio & home gear are becoming a blur.
"Focal" makes some really Great Active(D amplification) & passive speakers.. that are comfortable in either environments.
Focal is not the only ones either. JBL has of recent years, attempting to recapture its glory with their very nice Blue baffle monitors. I don't think JBL has dabbled into "Active" yet?
Studio playback is closer to Home listening. Thanks to the use of XLR options.
I go back to when JBL & Altec Lansing (which are cousins, if not brothers so to speak) ruled studio monitor scene.
That was the choice of playback we wanted at home. Mostly all our 70s artist were mastered using them!
Sound Reinforcement is a totally different animal. Most of the robust electronics have noisy built in fans for cooling & reliability purposes.
@@alex_stanley Probably a ton? LOL
But, as we have learned power isn't the whole story. Early car amps made that clear with their actual power rating & distortion claims checked.
@@Roof_Pizza @roof pizza And you now have some more info to work with? Read between the lines.
@@jamiesmith6838 Thankfully the latest class D can give high power with very low distortion.
We've been developing our own active studio monitor and have gone with Hypex N-core class D for the amplification. I would NEVER go back to AB now! Great video, thanks Gene!
Yeah. I went with a active three way with hypex power and I'm a happy camper.
Been using a hypex ncore nc502mp to power my klipsch forte i after doing much research on measurements.
I have a Peachtree nova500 (class D ) as well as a Marantz (class AB ) integrated amplifier. When I’ve listened to them against each other, they both sound exactly the same. There is absolutely no difference in sound quality. IMHO, class D can run with the big boys.
I have burnt my hand twice in class D
1. Chinese non branded class D from Singapore
2. NAD
And high frequency sounded synthetic. Also hard to describe hollow in low end (bass)
I need clarity and details not power. Also learnt class D uses sampling which is kind of digital type processing.
However blind listening to class D vs class AB,, AB was clear winner
Switched back to pure analogue Class AB and very happy.
Hmmm. I have an M28 on Polk Legend series. I want to test a good A/B up against it. Will provide feedback on your comment. Any particular tracks you want me to use to test?
@@Wozzaatwozza I use Momo (Mindi Abair) and for vocals I will always love you (WHitney Houston) and also Subba Laksmi song from Devudu Chesina Manushulu
@@MrUttammaru thanks.
I’ve been using SACDs Brothers in Arms, Runours, Hotel California, and Love Box. I compare these to regular CD versions and Apple TV. Also Pink Floyd Division Bell Blu Ray. One track I really love for testing music is Faithless ‘The Garden’ from Sunday 8PM CD
@@MrUttammaru just listened to I will always love you. Haven’t heard it for a few years. I used Tidal playback at 88.2k. I heard noise on her mic in the quiet section at the beginning, the sax is clean.
Momo is awesome, 🙏 the bass rocks, so many instruments, I love the percussion. Nice guitar and bass guitar. Thx. It’s a very good recording.
@@Wozzaatwozza thanks i also use Hotel California but the live version I don't have in floc or wav
Class D amplification has had a long impression as being less than.
Oh has times have obviously changed from that personification.
I've had some monolith in my days: Parasound HCA-3500 & the BAT VK-500 (BAT PACK). Room heaters powering KEF 105/3.
I've also owned an NAD 2200, as unstable as that amp was. Wasn't great sounding either, to my ears. It simply lacked depth, detail & air.
From memory, I had better results with dynamics & speed with a Classé CA-200 & CAP-151 biamping.
Definitely more coherency with the one power amp then with the two rig.
But the dynamics & speed were so satisfying together.
I was hoping to duplicate with the dual mono designs of either the HCA-3500 or with the VK-500? To my dismay, it didn't happen. Probably the synergy was off ?
I ended up moving & selling all those high-end pieces in a downsize for vintage gear from a Sansui integrated. AU-D11 ii. I gave up the slam & lowest noise floor for speed & detail.
Now if a NAD Class D amp has the speed & detail of a Spectral DMA-180? I'll dig up my ladder & climb back up the "high-end" tree & purchase an NAD M23.
Before I go there, I'll give a (pre-owned) Luxman L-509X a go first. For the integrated is redux of simplicity I highly appreciate these days of old.
I'll look Gene to see if you've done any integrated amps a thrashing? A Class D integrated? Now that would be interesting too!
There is not only Class D. At high power and voltage levels, "Class I, BCA" by Crown audio (Gerald Stanleys patent used in I-Tech and XTI 6002 amps) will avoid reverse recovery of the MOSFET's body diode vs. standard Class D at the expense of more complexity. Very clever design and the patent will expire soon, so expect to see more amps of those topology in the coming years.....
I have a class D amp that uses MOSFET with no feedback or filters and it makes a difference over my Clara A/B amps.
Thanks Gene I had to learn this on my own because it's not in the Vizio specs.
I have class D amplifiers in my Vizio subwoofers. They do a fantastic job in making great sound to my satellite speakers.
I don't have any distortion from either my Satellite speakers and there is nothing from Vizio subwoofers are very quiet from any sound other than the bass from the speaker. When they are on you can't tell. Vizio did an excellent job throughout the entire system on the soundbars. On mute you can't tell the power is on.
Yeah man, Class D today is the way to go for sure! I have been interested in it ever since the diy hypex ncore nc400 modules came out and smoked the floor out of other designs. My wish now is for Onkyo/Denon, etc to make an AVR with a good class D module that could provide true 100wpc all channels driven that’s easy to move into position and it’s affordable. Sadly, I believe we are still a numer of years away from that
Yeah, I'd love to see a Class D with support for 7-8 channels (7 you can bi-amp LR, 8 you can bi-amp LCR) so that you can get high quality 5.1. I'd like to see Denon and Marantz do it but I'm not happy with their current pricing. I'd rather see Onkyo and Pioneer make a strong comeback with a fantastic product or a newcomer like Emotiva and Monolith enter the AVR market.
Forget all that Atmos nonsense - we can just put it behind us and move forward.
@@techsamurai11 They say run more power than your speakers are rated and of course listen. I just like to see loudspeakers potentials. Now that I am older? I never listen to headphones or car audio. I prefer silence until the time comes. Preserving my hearing.
Atmos nonsense , ya right !! My Hi Fi journey began in 1966 In a PX in Cu Chi S. Viet Nam about the time that Hi Fi turned into Stereo ! In 1967 I went to Hong Kong and bought a Dual TT w/Shure M 44-7 cartridge . I chased tech . every year since and around 1972 I was cutting edge with 4 channel sound ! I then spent over 13 years in the consumer electronics business managing a 27 retail chain of CE stores in California , before starting my own chain of stores . I have never left this hobby for a moment and count among the people that I hung with as Saul Marantz , FFloyd Toole ,Albert Von Scheikert and Kevin Deal . You would be hard pressed to find someone that has loved this hobby and adapted as much as I have . I waited for front projection to mature and enjoyed front projection from the begining with a Panasonic LCD projector before graduating to A Pioneer Elite ,JVC clone and now have a Last generation LCOS JVC projector that throws a great 4 k image to my next JVC laser 8 k projector ! I have a dedicated Home Theater that is in a seperate building that is a 7/4/2 system and am anxiously waiting for my order of a Buckeye 3 channel 1A400 Purifi system (class D ) to power my LCR fronts . I retired in 2009 and live on a couple of acres in Maui to spare my neighbors of the reference level sound that my system outputs ! The DTSX /Atmos sound of everything that is put through my AV/ system is breathtaking and everyone that experiences it is shocked (in a good way ) ! Don't trash anything that you have not experienced ! You a alot of cool stuff to look forward Too !!
K @@techsamurai11
Would love a blindfolded group listening comparison between the Class D NAD, Monololith, ATI and Class A/B McIntosh, ATI, Krell.
Gene I agree, I sold my Class AB amp and am shopping for a class D. I did compare some Class D (Peachtree Gan400, M23, Starkrimson, AHB2 and while they are 80 % of the expensive amps (JC1 Krell etc) they aren't quite as good. Almost though. What is the best class D you have ever listened to?
I just replaced an Onkyo receiver with a small integrated class d amp to test the waters. I can say I'm blown away with the absolute pristine audio I'm enjoying now.
I'm in a similar situation. However, I regret buying the cheapest Tripath amp with only 10W of power. It sounds pristine however! Desktop amps are definitely a trap. All amps should have at least 25W on tap. It doesn't take more space.
I love Class A amps that cause the lights around the whole city to dim when you turn it on!
Re: Pass Labs measurements, did you look at the spectra of the distortion profile? Low-order harmonic distortion is much more pleasing than higher-order of the same magnitude. Nonetheless, explains why you enjoyed listening to it more than measuring it. ;)
Yes the Pass Labs FFT is really nasty even with the higher order spectra. Still, it sounded much better than it measured.
Thank you for this excellent video. Couldn't agree more. Once these amps start using GaNFET's instead of MOSFET's it's going to be the final nail in the coffin for linear amps. PS Word is, is that McIntosh is working on a D amp.
Agree
I using class D amp since 2012 and I’m very much satisfied. It’s pioneer sc LX 82. Which has B&O ice module and have the possibility to active bi-amping . I’m Running a pair of TAD S1-EX ( Pioneer), a very difficult speaker to drive. I know I should have gone for a pair of Belcanto monoblock, in future maybe I will. I had pre-power from Copland, and some other power hungry amps, but at the end I’ve sold them and stay with something more efficient. Trust me electricity in Europe is very expensive and if I can get almost same satisfaction from a class D then it’s better to stick with it.
Class D may use less power, be relatively cheaper, lighter in weight but most people buy equipment to produce the most pleasing (versus accurate) sound from their system which is conducive to long term listening; this is why there is still a tremendous demand for tube equipment. Additionally, we all hear differently and our listening rooms vary greatly hence, one size does not fit all!
You assume a product that measures great will somehow sound bad. But somehow the poor measuring product will sound better. Got it.
@@Audioholics You have elitist opinions about the subjectivity of audio preferences. Some people think class D lacks presence and is not enjoyable to listen to, yet you keep arguing specs like that is all that matters. It's 2022 and for some reason people are buying tube amps which are cumbersome and not as clean!?!?
@@kensmechanicalaffair it's 2022 and people still buy McDonald's. Enjoy
I moved to class d AGD Gran Vivace because of the impressive measurements and initially very impressive sound/listening, BUT, I still prefer the experience, the musical/emotional poor measuring connection I get from my Line Magnetic 845 premium tubes, Border Patrol 300B tubes. So after an impressive, but less enjoyable 18 months, the AGD’s are gone and I’m looking for class A to provide the tube like musicality with SS kick, as well as being stable at under 2 ohm (speaker choice), I’m not aware of any class D or tube amp that can do that. Good for those who can get their fix from Class D, I’m happy for you. Hopefully I’ll be able to return some day.
Was always a Yamaha old fashioned amp man using the likes of P2200, PC2002m and MX-1 to power the NS-1000Ms but the new SMSL SA400 matches the old amps I have pound for pound at one fourth the size. I am thoroughly impressed and for me, its a keeper. Thank you, Gene, for discussing this topic.
I am one that prefers an 1977 Trans-Am over a new Tesla any day of the week. It is the same when it comes to Class D versus Class A, A-B, or Valve amplifiers. In listening, I get bored with Class D's clear, pristine, pleasantness. Do not get me wrong it is wonderful technology and there are several I really enjoyed listening to so this is not Class D amp bashing. However, I do like a little grunge and personality within my system, so for now I will stick with the old school technologies despite their many quirks and failings. I just find a big, beefy, Mac much more fun to listen to than a Bel Canto.
So you like vintage for nostalgia, not for performance, gotcha
A 6.6L engine with 180 Horsepower. My wife’s small SUV has 185.
@@povertime6381 Exactly my point! I never said it was a vehicle that was capable of ultimate performance. Many modern vehicles are better engineered, more reliable, and much safer. You enjoyed them for their looks and sense of mystique. How collectible will the SUV be when it has seen 40 plus years? In short, the experience of driving a Trans-Am is for fun, not utility. That being said, GM did not want to be seen as continuing to produce gas guzzlers. When these were being built it was the start of the fuel crisis. So to keep the government off their backs, they and other manufactures often underrated the HP their engines could actually produce.
That's why I use all NAD now in my system!
I would say that in the lower segments the difference is even more profound. Take something like the Sonos Amp: a tiny integrated streaming amp with 2x125W DDFA power. That thing sounds great, drives low impedance loads, and basically puts every AB amplifier that costs twice as much to shame. The same goes for NAD amplifiers with Hypex' "low-end" UcD modules. It's simply amazing.
Please do a blind comparison of this amp and others. You keep saying there are differences in amp sound, but the examples given have been pretty much exceptions or outright faulty designs.
I'm not saying there aren't hearable differences between reasonably designed amps operating within their parameters, but healthy skepticism is what this channel has taught me. Cheers!
You got to it near the end, one of the biggest benefits of Class D is one most appreciated by my back.
The good news is now we have better transistor like GFET, which can switching state with terahertz freq.
This mean class D using it will be more smooth, the result better than older design.
Good points. But what about affordable amps for the masses? Is there an affordable Class-D for reasonable money?
I'd like to hear the new crop of GaN class d amps. They seem to be a vast improvement over my 2012 class D audio amp. That had a P/s hum and a bit of a vague treble. It was promising because the bass and mids were very good. I hope class D pushes overweight class A and a/b amps back to the archives of audio. I remember when the audio community raged against class A/B, yet-i've heard too soft class A amps.
I have built my own subwoofers. but since I wanted a lot of power I decided to go with Crown to power four 10 inch subs.
along with Yamaha RX-A6A.
I configure the speakers to work at a 4-ohm load coming from the crown with a converter box (balanced connection) I connected my sub out to the converter box.(even though I have XLR outputs from my Yamaha. I'm getting 1100 watts. undistorted. I would love to hear your opinion on the Crown XLS series amp. Thank you, Gene,
Thank you for keeping it real and concise! You get right to the brass tacks on what matters in amplifiers and cut through the BS! I have learned more from your ch about what really matters with audio than probably any single other!!
Good news! Thanks. I'm currently developing a class D amp 2 x 300W. With 2 x linear power supply. It will be open loop, no feedback.
Great review. I use a few speakers that are highly regarded in audiophile circles and are reasonably costly and I currently use Hypex 1200 based mono blocks amplifiers. Now looking a AGD productions amplifiers which are also class D.
I think if you have an amplifier no more than twenty-thirty years old, you probably should not worry of upgrading amplifier at all. And if you just need to buy one, it doesn't matter if it AB or D class, any modern amplifier do their job equally well, I'm pretty sure because I had three quite inexpensive amps from pioneer and yamaha, and I never even thought to upgrade them, was completely satisfied, and, which is more important, there is no difference in sound between them. Say, if you have problems with your loudspeakers, none amplifier will solve this. If you don't have such problems, there's no reason to upgrade amplifier. The only worthy reason to prefer D class over that it is much more "green friendly", as it doesn't waste any energy on heat.
Where can I dump my Pass X600.5's? ;-) That picture of the Pass amp that you showed is not the setreo X350.5 AB amp but a Pass XA200.5, 200 Watts Class A monaural amp weighing in at 160 lbs per channel taking in 700 Watts when idling.
I have nothing against class d amps. they’ve come a long way since their inception. That being said, I have 9 channels of linear amps, 2 being very good monoblocks. None if them are going anywhere…
One person behind all this Class D magic , both Hypex and Purifi : Bruno Putzeys !
Class D are very effecient! The problem is when the amplifier circuit get busted u have to spend a lot of money for the chip. Not like the linear amp, u can get what parts u want to replace anytime anywhere at a very low price.
I use the rotel rb1572 class D power amplifier alongside my musical fidelity class A pre amplifier the power this has is unbelievable and the control over the music due to it's power reserve I just love it
I’m not sure measurements actually tell you what you want to know here. A better test is something like the Audio Excellence Canada channel did where they had people listen to a Parasound stack and a PS Audio stack and talk about their impressions and why they might prefer one over the other. Just because something is new doesn’t make it better, and I think it makes less sense to talk about Class AB and Class D in general than to talk about specific amplifiers and their implementation. Or, to quote a certain Australian UA-camr, “good stays good”.
Well stated, but people choose amps based on personal preferences not just impressive lab measurements. It's the reason that tube amps are still popular, and why people prefer certain name brand foods, wines, clothing, watches, cars, etc. over other products that appear to be technically superior.
True indeed. Brand preference and style preference
I know this is already an older video and Gene probably isn't reading these comments anymore. But I just had to comment on one aspect of his testing methodology. The well-understood phenomena of "confirmation bias" has already been talked about before - in fact, I think on this channel. Regardless, here is my comment/suggestion:
Next time you do a listening test of some equipment, I respectfully suggest that you perform the listening test FIRST, and THEN do your bench measurements.
IMO it is literally impossible for normal humans to escape confirmation bias if the listening test (subjective) is done AFTER you become aware of the bench test results.
Keep up the awesome work Gene.
This is a really timely discussion as I’ve been looking hard at amp options for my living room. Looking at just buying another Parasound (A21+) to go with my Anthem STR, but also looking hard at something like an NAD integrated like the M33 instead.
If I'm not mistaken M33 is not even close to this one. Look at stereophile review. I've been there, decided to go with integrated STR. Not great, but not terrible. Awesome preamp but the power amp is loosing a bit of this performance.
Go for blind test, I noticed difference when I wanted to buy ELAC Floor standing FS 248 and carried my NAD and they had Marantz 7000N and was completely taken over by it. Earlier I had Class AB Onkyo but all the hype through youtubers for NAD i fall for it and was happy until I started re-discovering clarity.
Year back I visited a consultant in another city who had two Class D amps Pioneer and NAD and other Class AB and took blind test.
Please note Class D takes sample rate like digital and when it goes to high frequency amplification that adds noise (kind of jitter) and to eradicate they remove high frequency now to compensate they add high frequency before amplification.
Also note KEF has released wireless speakers and for Bass Driver Woofer they are using Class D but for Mids and Highs they are using Class AB.
You can take from my experience or can go ahead and burn your money in class D.
The analogy of Electric and Fuel combustion is totally wrong that can be used for amp power rating.
Please check PS Audio (Class D Stellar are cheap and Class AB BHK are very expensive) even Marantz gave up Class D after Model 30 and back to class AB, all high critical listening amplifiers are Class AB or Class A (gets too hot had demo of old Yamaha at second hand dealer)
What's also not mentioned, or I missed? Is power consumption of Class D Amplification being very low. Easy on the Grid Cali & electric bill too for that matter. Another reason I got out of the 100lbs power amp realities. 👌
I'm liking the Active speaker options nowadays too!
@@adrianegowski5012 Good catch! I read simular.
@@jamiesmith6838 especially that Dynaudio recently issued new Focus series with dirac :-)
Its hard for some people to acknowledge the fact the sound they like all these while is actually caused by distortion and harmonics.
shocking amount of truth to this. i have a friend whos a bit of an audiophile that has this shocking turntable. its bright with a very audible noise floor and the timing seems off but he just reads it as 'bloom' if there is such a thing.
Yeah there may be some sweetspot, where some distortion gives the signal a stronger sense of presence, while any more just smears it into chaos.
@@SwirlingDragonMist a sweetspot some may call it, I call that MY fidelity instead high fidelity.
Yes, like real instruments LOL
@@johto Your point is? And nope, thats not how it works. A system without noise and distortion will playback an instrument accurately, including the noise and distortion from the instrument itself as you stated. You dont want to add noise and distortion on noise and distortion because thats just dumb.
I have the NAD 388 runing my Dynaudio DM 3/4 and im impressed with the sound .Been in Audio since 1970 had all kind of amps A ,A/B ,tubes and finally went for Power D and never looked back.
This is off topic a bit, but I'd really like to see Gene cover the Minidsp flex or shd. Using either of these as a preamp with dirac and a purifi power amp seems to be state of the art performance for a moderate investment.
I would like to see that too.
I use the shd studio with hypex in a digital streaming system and it's really nice.
@@Phloored my friend does too. On Polk L600 and REL subs.
SHD straight into Pure Class A Triode monoblocks for me partnered with standmount speakers with a very flat impedance curve. Amps inefficient? yes but it’s a fast, natural, non-fatiguing sound and ok by today’s standard 0.13% THD at 1W may be considered high but it’s mainly second harmonic the most benign and musical harmonic. Oh and multi sub is also employed to ensure the bass remains tight. Now I’m not saying there aren’t better sounding systems out there but I’ve not heard one yet at any price :-)
Love the mini dsp unit.
Ohh, I love that. I don't have the money to buy the actual parts so I keep designing amps at MultiSim and run simulations to check out the distortion patterns and try to improve them. I designed a bunch of linear ones, and now I am at the beginning of designing a class-d, but the simulations take too long to run when it's a switching circuit. But I would love to know the details of the schematics that contribute for the distortion profile of the amp. Right now I don't know much about it, only that it can come from an op-amp that most designs use that could introduce bad distortion when it's not high quality.
Love my muscle cars Gene, but I am going class D. Dipping my toes with a 3-channel Class D very soon here. As always, thank you for uploading these videos for newbies in Audio like myself.
Class D has been bringing us high power, now it is doing it with refinement. A friend is running a Crown XLS2500 to run his beefy system. The Crown has stupid power and, much to my surprise, it didn't sound rough. His 2500 might not be the most refined thing, but it is good, and as for sheer bang for the buck, the Crowns are hard to beat. The NAD M33 has my full attention though. Power and top notch refinement and fidelity. What is not to like?
Have tested Crown XLS 1502 on KEF R11, Arendal 1723 Tower, Sonus Faber Nova V and sounds wonderful on all. The KEF and Arendals previously powered by Denon 8805HA and the Sonus Faber powered by the excellent ATI NCore. Couldn't hear ANY degradation in sound quality...in fact changing out the denon for the much more powerful Crown brought new life into the KEF and Arendals. There impact on the Arendal was much bigger due to those towers being VERY power hungry and rated @ 400watts 4OHM. Am I saying the Crown are the last word in quality....absolutely NOT. But you will really struggle to find better value in the high power segment. Purifi is the aim but just cannot make myself spend the money to get equivalent.
Another thought is to sell my denon 8805HA and buy the new denon 3800 which apparently will support Audyessy & Dirac and 4 independent subs and use it as a processor with crowns powering bed layer. Interestings times ahead for value driven people.
@@pumpituphomeboy Excellent! Agree 100%. The newer Crowns also incorporate cool features, really amazing for their price. Gain controls, integrated crossover, active cooling and LEDs indicating over temp and clipping. Seeing the clipping or temp LEDs activate would take some doing on a home audio system. Likely the house would suffer structural damage first 😆
Another good 2 channel bang for the buck class D amp to look at is Parasound's ZoneMaster 2350. Match it to their P6 Preamp for a nice system for a fraction of the cost of the comparable PS Audio setup.
I have a Nad M2 - still going strong, very happy with it, neutral and clean.
NAD has be on top of their game for some time now! Their measurements are extremely good also based on ASR test
Idle/base consumption is definitely something to consider, an A/B with linear PSU might be 30W/ch, with SMPS 20, these class-Ds (e.g. Purifi) are about 8W/ch idle. 👍
Dude, you were perfect until 12:56 when you started talking about embracing 16 and 32 channel systems and even mentioned the word that should never be mentioned - Atmos. 😄
I want to embrace an affordable 5.1 Perlisten System with the SR8015's performance in Class D allowing bi-amplification of the LCR, all in beautiful wood veneers and level meters that match the Technics SU-G700M2 😁
How interesting ... 🤔 Each time I have replaced my Class AB amplifiers with extremely "good" Class D amps, I've lost interest in listening to my music. ALL of them just lack soul, and leave me wanting my Class AB amp back in my system asap. Just my experience
Could be a cognitive bias against new tech or maybe the Class D you're buying isn't very good.
@@Audioholics Very good thoughts! I've been selling hifi since 1980. Placebo and cognative bias doesn't enter in any more. I have a total of 5 different systems at my home, and friends with their own. I bought ALL of the newest and best digital amps. Not one to try.
They are AMAZING in every way!!!! Except to anyone who listens to a LOT of live music as I do. See, I'm a recording engineer with my own studio. So I'm pretty set up to evaluate equipment. I even sold all of the ORIGINAL Classe equipment in my own hifi stores.
I am SO blessed to have the experience I do, and that I chose this field for a profession.
But the experience has taught me what real live music sounds like intimately .... The very best digital amps just don’t bring the emotional joy of live music, like quality AB amps do. Pick up a used BEL MK1001 Class AB amp for about $750 used.
NO DIGITAL AMP made can convey music playback even close to as well. BUT I am on the conatant search for a digital amp that DOES actually sound like music with soul! When it does arrive, I am all in happily!
I've tried Purifi, Gan, Hypex, Ice ... it sounds GREAT!!! But not realistic to live music .....
but how would I know? I only have the ability to record and play my own instruments, my own voice, on my own mics and equipment, in ky own recording studio and play that back. If an audio component doesn't play it back FAITHFULLY .... it is not up to my reference recordings standard.
I currently own 31 different amplifiers, dating back to the 60s.
I personally support class D completely!!! But the chase for lowest noise floor and best SNR has left the sound quality magic behind. Low noise floor and high SNR doesn't equal good sound quality! It just means you can hear the less of the inferior sound quality.
Lastly ... all good OLDER hifi salesmen know Pass waa 90% reputation and 10% accuracy! If you would like to contact me ever, I'd happily share a list of sub $2,000 class AB amplifiers which sound considerably better than any class D amp at any price. It's not a matter of comparing noise floors. It's a matter of what gets your foot stomping and your head bobbing. Think this isn't true? It's how I made my living in Hi-Fi as the number one salesman everywhere I went for 40 years nearly. People want good sound in the end. They spend countless hundreds of thousands trying to find it while looking for the new and greatest. Now people are going back to CDs in favor of streaming. New is not always better. This is my message.
You’re no musician I can tell you that..
@@drummerdoingstuff5020 And you are no clairvoyant, lol. Musician since 1980.
Now drum away off beat, 😆.
@@cdgee6399 😂 sure
I have a Peachtree Nova 300 (class D) on one of my systems, and two Parasound Monoblocks (ClassA/B) for the other. I love both but have never noticed a significant difference in quality.
yours is the kind of input this conversation needs
Great class AB amps with discrete construction are heirloom type products. Even great Class D amps are disposable products. Prices should reflect this. Right now they don't.
You are so right. I have a VTV Purifi EVAL1 that I modified a little. I love it, It's the best amp I have ever owned. My speakers are Merlin TSM and they are great with Purifi power amp.
The Pass amp is rated at 25 watts per channel is it not? So why show any problems above 25 watts. Maybe did not see the chart correctly. Thanks
About 3 years ago I opted for a 5 channel ATI Class D amp with 200 watts/ch. I've been extremely happy with it and I would buy again.
Nice review - wish I could try out the NAD! My master's thesis in 1982 was a 2-channel, 100 w/ch audio amplifier: DC to 20KHz with under .01% THD. It was a pure analog design (yes - nothing was digitized) What took everyone else so long!!! Load dependency was indeed an issue with my design. I would be interested in the transient and phase response of the NAD.
Thanks
Very interesting, thanks. However, what I don’t get is the technical quest for such low distorsion and high signal/noise ratio that testing equipment can hardly measure properly. How can our analog and so imperfect ear even notice the difference ? At least for most of us ?
@philippefenain4405 Our ears can't, but why not build the best that's possible if it doesn't make other compromises?
How is with complex load , speaker are not resistor, can it driver 6uF capacitive load???.
Wow that Hypex performance really is game changing. Especially on that 3rd harmonic. It may make the subtleties of gear a truly ridiculous pursuit, like what cars did to horse breed selection. What a time to be alive
The M23 employs Eigentakt class-D amplifier modules manufactured by NAD under license from Denmark’s Purifi Audio, not Hypex.😉
Will they be cheaper than the current class A/B?
This is your answer; ua-cam.com/video/Eahh4Czp-ko/v-deo.html ... :)
WeI've just swapped out my Roksan k3 and CXNv2 combo for a CA Evo 150 and am really happy. Such a "clean" sound and love the tight bass. No idea how the Evo measures but it sounds good to me. Hypex Ncore in it.
I moved away from room heaters long ago. My first non A/AB/Tube was a PS Audio GCC 250, which I purchased new when they first introduced it, and still serves wonderfully in my TV system. Having owned probably 8-10 class Ds since then, GaN amps has changed the game. My LSA Voyager GaN 350 @ $3000 MSRP is an absolute steal
How do the Technics Class D offerings compare to the NAD Class D? Also, true, splitting hairs is right. With measurements so good when comparing a quality linear to a quality class D, one may sound more pleasing to your ears than the other, but I doubt you'll hear any difference regarding the measurements. Ultimately how it sounds is what counts, not how efficient it is or how it measures, unless it's going into space.
Is a SMPS used for efficiency or is it necessary in a class D for other reasons? They have too many parts - too failure prone and usually need fans to cool them.
I’ve always been and likely always will be will be a staunch advocate of choice. It is nice and indeed, healthy that music lovers have a choice of the classification of amp they purchase to reproduce music. I started to build my hifi system in the early 80s when class D was in its infancy and not well known. Hence, 40 years later my main rig includes pure class A preamp, with the rest of the amplification in the chain being class AB. I don’t foresee that changing any time soon. That having bren said, my nearfield desktop rig in my off is class D and sounds great. Crisp, rich, full bodied and full range. I don’t have a particular bias, but would I will have a choice. That’s why I thing both topographies are here, side by side, for the long term.
And the great thing is, you can get a small system builder Purifi amp for 1/3 the price the NAD. I got a Hypex one and it’s great.
Replaced my boat moorings with a cheap but quality class D. Even expected some "glary highs" but all I heard was a nice clean sound, even "warm", because there is no glare/fluffyness that some other admittedly older amps I've heard have. Not the highest power, but more than enough most of the time. I may upgrade to more power and quality some day
Nice video. I have a class D Integrated amp with a tube preamp stage. It sounds great to me. I really don't get to deep into all the measurements. It's more important that it sounds good to me. Measurements are used to design the equipment, but specs on paper don't always mean great sound. Whether it's class A/B, class D, solid state or tubes, I let my ears decide.
specs on paper don't always mean good sound with SPEAKERS - namely because they're not typically measured correctly and the information is not interpreted correctly, and because it's much harder to measure speakers in all relevant dimensions and make sense of that data, though perhaps not impossible.
but with amplifiers, measurements are everything. good measurements - assuming they're the right measurements, done correctly, absolutely do guarantee "good sound"... or at least, sound that is CORRECT. the measurements are what tell us if the OUTPUT matches the INPUT but simply scaled up. then it's down to source material and speakers. the amp he showed today, for all intents and purposes, is perfect. if you A/B'd it to something else and could reliably tell the difference in a double blind test and preferred the other amp, that only means that you prefer some kind of distortion. again - with amps, or dacs, specs on paper - the measurements - by DEFINITION mean good sound, if by good we mean correct and free of distortion. it can't get any better or more correct than correct. don't soften the facts with your feelings. speakers are another world entirely, and much more subjective, although some of the numbers still do matter objectively.
@@Artcore103 Thanks for your reply. And God bless you if measurements bring you lots of joy. Everyone has an opinion on this subject. Here is my take. I listen to music with my ears. If it measures well, but doesn't sound good to me, it isn't something I'm going to incorporate in my system. On the other hand, if it sounds great to me but the measurements aren't great by whatever standards are used to measure it, I don't really care because it sounds good to me.
Here is an interesting side analogy. Most of the great musicians of all time select the instruments they play based on how it feels and more importantly how it sounds to them. I have never heard of a great musician say they selected their instrument based only on measurements or specifications. Itzhak Pearlman for example, plays a Stradivarius Violin made by the famous Antonio Stradivari. Stradivari made violins from 1644 - 1737. He made them by hand and did not have any sophisticated electronic measurement devices to measure how they sounded. Pearlman selected his violin based on how it felt in his hands and how it sounded. Most violin players will say that a Stradivarius is incomparable in sound to any other violin. Even with sophisticated measuring devices today, no one has produced a violin that sounds like a Stradivarius. Maybe these great musicians, the people who actually make the music we listen to, are all wrong and should use measurements to select their choice of instrument instead of, well, using their ears. I'll keep listening and subjectively select what sounds best to me.
@@neilfisher7999 an instrument is very different, it's not trying to accurately reproduce something else, it's making its own unique sound, and every one sounds different. Measurements would thus be pointless, and also there's no other violin that would theoretically measure just like his stradivarius.
But an amplifier is intended to replicate an input signal, so therefore if you want to actually hear what his violin sounds like, the measurements - assuming they're accurate and represent all relevant variables - are literally all that matters. Preference is one thing, we're all entitled to it. But you cannot rationally simply turn off your logic entirely. Your analogy is without merit or comparative value.
@@Artcore103 I prefer to listen to music and enjoy how it sounds. How it measures does not concern me if it sounds good. Music by its very nature is subjective. What is pleasing to the ear of one person is harsh and unpleasant to the next person. Listening to music through some kind of sound system is also subjective. You can measure things till the cows some home. And if that is what you enjoy doing, then so be it. The reason there are so many choices out there when it comes to audio gear is because there is no “end all be all”, or “one size fits all” setup that everyone agrees sounds good. I don’t criticize what other people listen to or listen with. It is their choice. I am sorry you can’t wrap your head around that philosophy. I don’t understand your method either. It doesn’t matter, you have your opinion and I have mine. I play music and sing. I also read music. Maybe you do as well, I don’t know. Again, it doesn’t matter. Buy all the gear you want based on measurements, if that makes you happy. Be happy, don’t criticize others who don’t agree with your methodology.
@@neilfisher7999 I think I was clear but I'll say it again, I have zero criticism for your or anyone else's preference, that's legitimate. I'm merely stating that objectively amplifier quality can be measured and thus good and consistent sound can be 100% ensured. Unlike instruments, two VERY different amplifiers that measure the same - again assuming accurate measurements that account for all relevant variables - WILL sound the same. If you like it warm or bright or bass etc you can use an eq, but at least you know the amplifier can perform an output that matches the input i.e. what is intended. Given what is typically used as mastering equipment in studios, you should have an amp that measures well, though the speakers will always play a more dominant role in the sound. I do play instruments as well hence my issue with the false analogy.
Your amplifier isn't an instrument... it's the thing that should accurately play back the instruments that were recorded. However, speakers are unavoidably an instrument to some degree, it is what it is. I prefer speakers to headphones or earbuds even though technically they are less of an instrument and can ensure a more controlled and accurate experience but I find it subjectively inferior.
I have tried the Hypex UCD modules and those are garbage for hifi as they give me listening fatigue. But I guess that they are okay for rear channels in a surround setup og a subwoofer.
With which speakers? What amp are you using now instead?
@@ThePentosin My speakers are a pair of Ekta Grande, designed by Troels Gravesen (3 way, with Scan-speak revalator drivers). Now I’m using a Gryphon power amp to drive them. I have also used a NAD S300 integrated amplifier which sound similar to the Gryphon power amp that I now use.
@@3Dmaking Well, ucd is over 10 years old. So it fall i line with the point of the video.
Your speakers going down to 3ohm might exacerbate the issues with it.
Would be interesting to know if the newer ncore would satisfy you.
good for a subwoofer
@@ThePentosin I know. The other amps that I use are +20years. But the impedance load in nothing special from a 4 Ohm speaker. The next amplifier is not going to be anything nCore, but most likely a Parasound Halo JC5 😁
If it is a maturing technology as you say, should one wait to buy a Class D amp? How long will it take to mature? Where will the maturity take place?
So, I was forced to retire due to disability. I was making pretty good money with my pension and SS, so I began buying some stuff I had wanted for a long time. Like a pair of Adcom 555's; a Carver M-500; a NAD 208 thx; ( I didn't even know NAD made amps this big and powerful! ) Emotiva xda-2 and PT-100 preamp/DACs; and the best of the lot, a pair of immaculate aDs 910s and L810 loudspeakers, plus a room full of bookshelf speakers.
Now, my pay has been lowered a bit, so I can't afford the more recent gear, but I already enjoy what I have very much and I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to gather what I consider very good components.
Makes me think of a major loss we had this year in the death of Tommy O'Brien at Digital Amplifier Company. Made one of the best Class D amps for the money, if not the best. Find them used if you can.
Very sad indeed. Tommy was a good guy.
The historical problem with class D amps is the passive output filter, And it must be a passive design. A passive filter response is highly dependent on the input and output impedance match. Well as we know a speaker is hardly a constant impedance. IIRC, over 300% variation across the audio band. So that means the output filter is not going to reject the clock signal equally across the audio band. You can only design the filter for a very narrow impedance if you expect a consistent slope.
Now I know that Bruno Putsley(sp?) has done some extensive research into this and other class D issues and his products are in fact highly regarded in the high end audio community. I guess it's all about practicality. Just how low does the clock residue need to be? There must be a sweet spot but I would think that would be speaker dependent.. Is Bruno using some kind of feedback to pre-distort the filter and thus further null the clock noise? Kind of like hum with tube amps. You can never totally eliminate hum with AC heating but there is a practical level where it's not really an issue.
There are high end studio monitors with class D amps in them such as Genelec 8351B and they are excellent speakers for analytical music listening not just for studios.
I have learned more here than from all other sources together. I listen to music in a 2 channel system.
Selecting any products is a mix of specs verses price verse overall experience ...so personally I like the simple option that we research, demo and then simply choose what we like ....not necessary just on specs , or what others like or recommend ! As we all have different tastes ...and with hifi hearing.
NAD M23 Review will be great.
I have a new class a/b and a new class d, although the a/b cost $220 more. The a/b is more dynamic and detailed with better bass control. Both are 100wpc and measured superior by Amir. I wouldn't hesitate to get better class d.
Great for active crossovers, not so great with passive. High damping aspect too does not work well with some designs that benefit from a bass overhang.
"bass overhang" sounds like distortion to me - it sounds like the "design" is a flaw... you want the woofer to not follow the output signal but smooth or round it out? i think you're wrong. better control over the woofers is better. if this results in somewhat less full sounding bass / less spl at certain frequencies, EQ it back in. the amp should ideally be in perfect 1:1 control of the speaker position at all times in theory. if i'm missing something do explain i'm open to it.
I've never noted differences in power amp sound to any great degree, with a few exceptions (SETs definitely have a different sound - with notable differences in output tubes as well, and classic Naim has a distinctive sound to my ears).
But with Class D, i can say that the lowly ICE power 50ASX2 sounds as good as any Krell, Levinson or Pass amp i've heard (memory only, no direct comparison). The ease of implementation, combined with good sound, means I won't use anything else in any build that demands more power than a pair of 300bs would provide
One exception may be a VFET (Tokin) amp based on the Pass SIT-3. Haven't heard any amp that sounds better than this (with relatively sensitive speakers.) It's incredible.
But, I want a Class D for when I'm not doing dedicated listening for power efficiency reasons.
@@asplmn I haven't heard any of Nelson's First Watt designs, but I do know a guy who built the Amp Camp one - Ill have to see if i can borrow it sometime
@@robertbrenner610 the FW stuff is definitely worth playing with -- or building (DIY) -- if you get a chance. The ACA is awesome for the price, but doesn't compete against the SIT stuff.
Would love to hear your thoughts if you get a chance to do so! :)