Linear Amps are DEAD, Long Live Class D!
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Linear amplifiers have been the backbone of the audio world for decades. They are still the most cost effective style of amplifier to make with a high level of performance and dependability. However, linear AB designs are inefficient (up to 60-70% at full rated power) and high power models can be big and heavy and generate lots of heat. Class D amplifier has recently made leaps forward in performance, power and efficiency (90%+) . In this video, I show examples of good vs great linear A/AB amplifier designs vs good vs stellar Class D alternatives. I also discuss the advantages of Class D amplifier designs in terms of channel density and power savings and why you should get over any stigma against this new amplifier technology.
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I understand that a really expensive unit like the Nad M23 performance is really great, but how about all the cheaper units from like Fosi audio, Ayima and Emotiva ect., if you could test those types of units it would be far more beneficial to the average consumer. Thanks!
I will not "dump" my Class A/B amplifier until it dies, and in that process it will outlast half a dozen Class D amplifiers. The MTBF of a linear power supply is much greater than switch-mode junk. If it should fail, the components in a class A/Bare easy to identify and replace, as opposed to the Class D, which is covered in hundreds of surface-mount boogers. We've not seen manufacturers adjust the price of these "high end" Class D amplifiers, even though they don't contain nearly as much copper and iron, have a dramatically lower shipping weight, and cost a small fraction to manufacture, rather they are enjoying a high markup on these devices. Building devices with lower expected lifespans guarantees a future revenue stream, it fits the "disposable" model, but I wouldn't call it high end. None of us will be handing down our Class D amps to our kids or grandkids like we would a vintage Marantz or Pioneer receiver, this stuff will be in landfills petty soon.
Gene, you've given me a stroke of genius, as I'm a hundred miles north of Toronto, up here in Canada, I'll get the Pass Labs and tell the wife it's an electric heater for my listening room! That way I can blast Mahler and not freeze to death like I do each winter up here in 17 feet of ice.... in July yet.
I am going to look at that NAD tho
Great idea, Eh?🤣
Ahahhahaah
Dr. McCoy: Linear amps are dead Jim.
Captain Kirk: Bones... Bones it wasn't your fault.
Dr. McCoy: Damn it Jim! I'm just a country doctor.
Mr. Spock: We already knew that doctor. Linear amps are simply too inefficient Captain. Perhaps Mr. Scott can improve their efficiency.
Scotty: Captain! I can't change the laws of physics!
I love class D amps, especially the Purifi and the new GaN designs, but I will never give up my Benchmark class AB amp. Can we all get along?
Yep that's SOTA amp for sure
i want one.
i have an LA4 already 😛
Hi Gene. Great topic. I have embraced class D and have a few pairs of Class D amps that sound great. I sold my big Bryston 28B3 monoblock amps. I’m not getting any younger and heavy class AB amps are just a pain (literally) to move in and out of my rig. Now I do have some tube gear. But that is a separate beast entirely. But as for solid state, class D has arrived.
Wondering what they sound like in comparison. Sometimes tubes and other amplifiers have a more pleasing warm sound. Even if it’s not quite as perfect. Speakers obviously as well. So just because it measures really good doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to sound really good. Wondering what your thoughts are. I know you’re very technical, however sometimes just like records which aren’t perfect or more pleasing to some audiofiles
I agree. I now that amp that measures really well can still sound lifeless, non engaging, sharp etc. It has to pass listening tests as well. With that said, high end class D designs do sound good.
Class D amplification has had a long impression as being less than.
Oh has times have obviously changed from that personification.
I've had some monolith in my days: Parasound HCA-3500 & the BAT VK-500 (BAT PACK). Room heaters powering KEF 105/3.
I've also owned an NAD 2200, as unstable as that amp was. Wasn't great sounding either, to my ears. It simply lacked depth, detail & air.
From memory, I had better results with dynamics & speed with a Classé CA-200 & CAP-151 biamping.
Definitely more coherency with the one power amp then with the two rig.
But the dynamics & speed were so satisfying together.
I was hoping to duplicate with the dual mono designs of either the HCA-3500 or with the VK-500? To my dismay, it didn't happen. Probably the synergy was off ?
I ended up moving & selling all those high-end pieces in a downsize for vintage gear from a Sansui integrated. AU-D11 ii. I gave up the slam & lowest noise floor for speed & detail.
Now if a NAD Class D amp has the speed & detail of a Spectral DMA-180? I'll dig up my ladder & climb back up the "high-end" tree & purchase an NAD M23.
Before I go there, I'll give a (pre-owned) Luxman L-509X a go first. For the integrated is redux of simplicity I highly appreciate these days of old.
I'll look Gene to see if you've done any integrated amps a thrashing? A Class D integrated? Now that would be interesting too!
I played bass for a band some 30 years ago. My amp was tubed, and weighted in at probably 60 pounds. I picked up the bass again several years ago, and I bought an amp that is 800 watts, the size of a 1,000 page book, and weighs 8 pounds. it sounds good. I can carry it in a small bag.The difference in weight, size and power are stellar. It has a tubed and a solid state input, which can be blended.
70s-80s Bass player also. Sounds like an SVT. I have (2) Crown A/B pro amps and an 8-10 SWR Workingman with 2-18 PA bass cabs as a stage rig. Bi-amped setup. Have looked at all the newer class D heads and am amazed at the size/weight. Many jobs today would not allow the old-school Bass Wall. Some are in-ear only. However, my Crown A/B still packs 450W @ 4 ohms with .5% THD. I cannot find a class D amp for a home stereo that comes close without DOUBLE+ the THD numbers. My audiophile UA-cam adversaries are all about Op amp rolling and external linear power supply upgrades just to boost the performance of $150 Class D 2-channel amps. Extra items bring the price up to the $500 range. My pro gear is from the 80s and 90s and STILL performs without missing a beat. Not ready to give up my muscle car just yet. And I mean my Camaro. LOL!
That really is the big advantage of a good class D design - besides size, weight, and efficiency.
They sound so neutral and clean, it can seem "too clean" and "dry" to some people whose ears are used to higher distortion of older class A and AB designs. And you can easily get those characteristics to the exact point you prefer by using different preamp stages in front of the class D power stage.
It's really the most versatile design currently possible. Any desired sound characteristic can be done relatively cheap and easy.
Does this mean that in the near future I can buy a fifty thousand dollar amp of today for a hundred bucks.
Cool
My front speakers are powered by a class D Hypex-based monoblocks, and I'm very satisfied by the SQ as well as the very low heat they produce even after many hours of high SPL listening. As Gene said, the era of the class D is here to stay!
I have nothing against class d amps. they’ve come a long way since their inception. That being said, I have 9 channels of linear amps, 2 being very good monoblocks. None if them are going anywhere…
Very Interesting!!!! An eye opener! Been an audiophile for 60years. I remember going to the McIntosh amplifier clinic (in the tube days) with my tube amplifier (Bell 2200C) to get it tested. I did buy a Class D power amp years ago. It was trash. I also was aware that there has been continuous R & D work in that area. It's nice to know that Class D has come of age. The results you show are startling. Kudos to you for the testing. Keep it up the great work.
we've had this (ultra high quality class D and class T) for 10+ years but we welcome you to the club. it can also be had for 1/10 the price of the amp he shows here.
Also check out AudioScienceReview, they have measurements/reviews of lots of them. The size and (low) price of some is amazing. Unless you want a piece of art to look at, there is now no need for large boxes/high prices.
@@Artcore103 👍
Every time something changed in audio and I ran out and purchased, I would go broke!
I'll stick to what I have thank you!
Thanks for the info Gene, I'll keep it in mind just in case one of my amps kick the bucket. 👍✌️☝️
One person behind all this Class D magic , both Hypex and Purifi : Bruno Putzeys !
I love Class A amps that cause the lights around the whole city to dim when you turn it on!
How interesting ... 🤔 Each time I have replaced my Class AB amplifiers with extremely "good" Class D amps, I've lost interest in listening to my music. ALL of them just lack soul, and leave me wanting my Class AB amp back in my system asap. Just my experience
Could be a cognitive bias against new tech or maybe the Class D you're buying isn't very good.
@@Audioholics Very good thoughts! I've been selling hifi since 1980. Placebo and cognative bias doesn't enter in any more. I have a total of 5 different systems at my home, and friends with their own. I bought ALL of the newest and best digital amps. Not one to try.
They are AMAZING in every way!!!! Except to anyone who listens to a LOT of live music as I do. See, I'm a recording engineer with my own studio. So I'm pretty set up to evaluate equipment. I even sold all of the ORIGINAL Classe equipment in my own hifi stores.
I am SO blessed to have the experience I do, and that I chose this field for a profession.
But the experience has taught me what real live music sounds like intimately .... The very best digital amps just don’t bring the emotional joy of live music, like quality AB amps do. Pick up a used BEL MK1001 Class AB amp for about $750 used.
NO DIGITAL AMP made can convey music playback even close to as well. BUT I am on the conatant search for a digital amp that DOES actually sound like music with soul! When it does arrive, I am all in happily!
I've tried Purifi, Gan, Hypex, Ice ... it sounds GREAT!!! But not realistic to live music .....
but how would I know? I only have the ability to record and play my own instruments, my own voice, on my own mics and equipment, in ky own recording studio and play that back. If an audio component doesn't play it back FAITHFULLY .... it is not up to my reference recordings standard.
I currently own 31 different amplifiers, dating back to the 60s.
I personally support class D completely!!! But the chase for lowest noise floor and best SNR has left the sound quality magic behind. Low noise floor and high SNR doesn't equal good sound quality! It just means you can hear the less of the inferior sound quality.
Lastly ... all good OLDER hifi salesmen know Pass waa 90% reputation and 10% accuracy! If you would like to contact me ever, I'd happily share a list of sub $2,000 class AB amplifiers which sound considerably better than any class D amp at any price. It's not a matter of comparing noise floors. It's a matter of what gets your foot stomping and your head bobbing. Think this isn't true? It's how I made my living in Hi-Fi as the number one salesman everywhere I went for 40 years nearly. People want good sound in the end. They spend countless hundreds of thousands trying to find it while looking for the new and greatest. Now people are going back to CDs in favor of streaming. New is not always better. This is my message.
You’re no musician I can tell you that..
@@drummerdoingstuff5020 And you are no clairvoyant, lol. Musician since 1980.
Now drum away off beat, 😆.
@@cdgee6399 😂 sure
I just built and set up a Class a amp and I have never heard such fine sound. Our ears do the critical measurements.
Class D is a bad excuse to make a cheap amplifier!
Just look at the power supply it’s a switch mode. How long do you think that will last before it’s fail?
They all sound analytic, and the sound the same ….
So I keep my 25 kg heater and 2 x 30 watts in class a😉
Class a a/b is a living amplifier and not cold 🥶 to the touch
Thanks for breaking it down Gene. I have long been victim to the 'magical thinking' that bigger, hotter, more energy wasteful parts somehow must sound better because, well, they cost more and use more 'juice' right? Thats just not how sound works lol. Also, I think speakers are more than 80% of what you hear and you should spend around that as a portion of your system budget
How is with complex load , speaker are not resistor, can it driver 6uF capacitive load???.
Many say Class-D causes listening fatigue. How is that when their measurements are so good?
Class D are very effecient! The problem is when the amplifier circuit get busted u have to spend a lot of money for the chip. Not like the linear amp, u can get what parts u want to replace anytime anywhere at a very low price.
I used to be a class D naysayers until I heard the Bel Canto Ref600M class D monoblocks on my big Psb Imagine T3 towers. I couldn't believe how they brought my speakers to a whole different level with absolutely NO audible distortion! The use the Hypex Ncore module. Class D is going to be the new norm as many amplifier manufacturers are coming out with class D amplifiers.
I have a pair of those beauties. Youre exactly right...they are phenomenal.
There is one class D power amp called the Starkesound and it's supposed to sound a bit like tubes.
@@ajzepp8976 They are excellent amplifiers and very powerful!
@@samitch61 A buddy if mine is a high end audio dealer, and initially I had bought a pair of Gold Note monoblocks. My Magnepans ate them alive, which surprised me. I sent them back, and he happened to mention he had a demo pair of 600m monos for a bit more. Hooked them up, and wow...beautiful pairing with the Maggies. Like you said, plenty of power, and really brought them to life. Hope to have them for years to come, bc i surely cant afford to replace them lol
Play the birthday massacre, their latest released song... I'd almost 💯 guarantee it will distort. Crazy thing it won't distort on class a/b.
Good points. But what about affordable amps for the masses? Is there an affordable Class-D for reasonable money?
Great class AB amps with discrete construction are heirloom type products. Even great Class D amps are disposable products. Prices should reflect this. Right now they don't.
Ok, got it, when my current Emotiva XPA -1 generation 2 class a a/b 600 watt mono blocks die then I will look at a good class d amp. But not going to go right out and buy a class d just because they measure great. But good to know that high $ amps like the pass labs linear amps are nothing to covet. Sure look impressive though. Like the Dan Dagostino gear sure looks like audio nirvana but would never spend that kind of money on an amp.
I think if you have an amplifier no more than twenty-thirty years old, you probably should not worry of upgrading amplifier at all. And if you just need to buy one, it doesn't matter if it AB or D class, any modern amplifier do their job equally well, I'm pretty sure because I had three quite inexpensive amps from pioneer and yamaha, and I never even thought to upgrade them, was completely satisfied, and, which is more important, there is no difference in sound between them. Say, if you have problems with your loudspeakers, none amplifier will solve this. If you don't have such problems, there's no reason to upgrade amplifier. The only worthy reason to prefer D class over that it is much more "green friendly", as it doesn't waste any energy on heat.
We've been developing our own active studio monitor and have gone with Hypex N-core class D for the amplification. I would NEVER go back to AB now! Great video, thanks Gene!
Yeah. I went with a active three way with hypex power and I'm a happy camper.
Been using a hypex ncore nc502mp to power my klipsch forte i after doing much research on measurements.
There are a number of manufacturers producing class D amplifiers modules like Hypex, Purifi etc. These amps are typically sold to manufacturers that incorporate them into an amplifier design, As a consumer, it's not at all easy to discern who the manufacturers are that are producing class D amps and whose class D module they are using. It would be really helpful to see Audioholics or another publisher research this and produce a current list of class D amp makers and who they source the amp component from. I know from researching this a bit myself that NAD, ATI, PS Audio and a long list of smaller domestic and foreign manufacturers are building switching amplifiers but it's by no means a complete list. Some of the manufacturers disclose whose amp module they're using and whether it's a stock or modified version but not all do. I'm also curious about the reliability and longevity or class D amps compared to class AB amplification. For example, I'm interested in NAD's M 33 amplifier, but I noted that NADs warranty on this product is 3 years. That's not terribly reassuring for a product that lists for $5999. Class AB amp builders like Bryston, Luxman, and McIntosh have warranties that are 20 years and that tells me they trust their build and intend to stand behind it. Last but not least, I have followed the availability of NAD's products for over a year now and it's perfectly clear they have serious supply chain issues as their products, particularly their class D products, are often out of stock for months on end with no expected delivery date. I am definitely interested in class D but I am willing to wait awhile to see how these perform over time and whether or not manufacturers of these products begin to offer more reassuring warranties.
Look for threads on ASR as well as videos here with Dylan of Buckeye amps. I think you'll be impressed with his passion for quality. He seems to be a master of class D amps even though his PhD is in Immunology.
I will build a Nilai soon!😊
NAD has be on top of their game for some time now! Their measurements are extremely good also based on ASR test
I am one that prefers an 1977 Trans-Am over a new Tesla any day of the week. It is the same when it comes to Class D versus Class A, A-B, or Valve amplifiers. In listening, I get bored with Class D's clear, pristine, pleasantness. Do not get me wrong it is wonderful technology and there are several I really enjoyed listening to so this is not Class D amp bashing. However, I do like a little grunge and personality within my system, so for now I will stick with the old school technologies despite their many quirks and failings. I just find a big, beefy, Mac much more fun to listen to than a Bel Canto.
So you like vintage for nostalgia, not for performance, gotcha
A 6.6L engine with 180 Horsepower. My wife’s small SUV has 185.
@@povertime6381 Exactly my point! I never said it was a vehicle that was capable of ultimate performance. Many modern vehicles are better engineered, more reliable, and much safer. You enjoyed them for their looks and sense of mystique. How collectible will the SUV be when it has seen 40 plus years? In short, the experience of driving a Trans-Am is for fun, not utility. That being said, GM did not want to be seen as continuing to produce gas guzzlers. When these were being built it was the start of the fuel crisis. So to keep the government off their backs, they and other manufactures often underrated the HP their engines could actually produce.
What a load of rubbish class d will never take over linner amps and readings etc only tell a bit of the story how it sounds obviously will always matter never ever compare on measurements
Yeah I would agree for Home theater, but not for 2.0 channel HiFi. Linear A/B will continue for those. Not selling my 2 ch. Parasound JC 5.
Class A is hard to beat when it comes to wasting energy. Fully agree.
@@Audioholics LoL that’s why A/B is what I prefer for music and my electric bill. Class D for Home theater I can go for that.
A comment on the Nelson Pass amplifier: Nelson Pass does not design his amplifiers for lowest measurable distortion. He voices them for a specific distortion spectrum, that created on purpose after a series of listening tests.
So, there you are not measuring unwanted artefacts, it is not mediocrity. It is specific design, which yielded more positive subjective listening tests versus the lowest distortion baseline.
So they know what they are doing. I would call pass labs musical sounding and relatively neutral.
I have a class D amp that uses MOSFET with no feedback or filters and it makes a difference over my Clara A/B amps.
My belief system was shattered when Powersoft put linear amps on life support in the pro sound /touring markets. Dinosaurs are holding on to linear because they need the bulk and size to justify the crazy prices . Then there's the imaginary "sound" which usually got snuffed in a blind test. It hurt me to admit that my McIntosh space heater was getting smoked by a Crown XLS. My NS-1000Ms and wallet couldn't be happier. Letting go is really hard after spending so much money over the years. For myself I just had admit that my Mac loyalty was more mental gymnastics and cost bias than anything coming through my speakers.
Great video man!!!!!
Yeah man, Class D today is the way to go for sure! I have been interested in it ever since the diy hypex ncore nc400 modules came out and smoked the floor out of other designs. My wish now is for Onkyo/Denon, etc to make an AVR with a good class D module that could provide true 100wpc all channels driven that’s easy to move into position and it’s affordable. Sadly, I believe we are still a numer of years away from that
Yeah, I'd love to see a Class D with support for 7-8 channels (7 you can bi-amp LR, 8 you can bi-amp LCR) so that you can get high quality 5.1. I'd like to see Denon and Marantz do it but I'm not happy with their current pricing. I'd rather see Onkyo and Pioneer make a strong comeback with a fantastic product or a newcomer like Emotiva and Monolith enter the AVR market.
Forget all that Atmos nonsense - we can just put it behind us and move forward.
@@techsamurai11 They say run more power than your speakers are rated and of course listen. I just like to see loudspeakers potentials. Now that I am older? I never listen to headphones or car audio. I prefer silence until the time comes. Preserving my hearing.
Atmos nonsense , ya right !! My Hi Fi journey began in 1966 In a PX in Cu Chi S. Viet Nam about the time that Hi Fi turned into Stereo ! In 1967 I went to Hong Kong and bought a Dual TT w/Shure M 44-7 cartridge . I chased tech . every year since and around 1972 I was cutting edge with 4 channel sound ! I then spent over 13 years in the consumer electronics business managing a 27 retail chain of CE stores in California , before starting my own chain of stores . I have never left this hobby for a moment and count among the people that I hung with as Saul Marantz , FFloyd Toole ,Albert Von Scheikert and Kevin Deal . You would be hard pressed to find someone that has loved this hobby and adapted as much as I have . I waited for front projection to mature and enjoyed front projection from the begining with a Panasonic LCD projector before graduating to A Pioneer Elite ,JVC clone and now have a Last generation LCOS JVC projector that throws a great 4 k image to my next JVC laser 8 k projector ! I have a dedicated Home Theater that is in a seperate building that is a 7/4/2 system and am anxiously waiting for my order of a Buckeye 3 channel 1A400 Purifi system (class D ) to power my LCR fronts . I retired in 2009 and live on a couple of acres in Maui to spare my neighbors of the reference level sound that my system outputs ! The DTSX /Atmos sound of everything that is put through my AV/ system is breathtaking and everyone that experiences it is shocked (in a good way ) ! Don't trash anything that you have not experienced ! You a alot of cool stuff to look forward Too !!
K @@techsamurai11
Would love a blindfolded group listening comparison between the Class D NAD, Monololith, ATI and Class A/B McIntosh, ATI, Krell.
The Pass amp is rated at 25 watts per channel is it not? So why show any problems above 25 watts. Maybe did not see the chart correctly. Thanks
Was there a follow up video comparing sound quality of the NAD M23 with other amplifiers like PASS Labs?
I want to know the same thing
That's why I use all NAD now in my system!
Yep. Screw the haters. Class D is the future, and is NOW.
Class-D audio power amps have totally taken over live sound production. Ten years ago, you could still find linear Crown, JBL, QSC, and Yamaha power amps, but they were relegated to permanent rack-mounted installations that demanded utmost reliability. Early generations of Class D amps had a reputation for sudden infant death syndrome, particularly when their output terminals were shorted. Nowadays, networked remote control DSP features have been fully integrated into professional power amps, simplifying monitoring and maintenance of power amp racks.
The Coda Audio line array I got for my new venue has 7 4-channel amps at 3500 watts per channel. I can't even imagine how large and heavy the amplifier stack would be to put out the same power with class AB.
@@Roof_Pizza Exactly, And? Sound Reinforcement & Studio Monitoring is different from Home Stereo.
I've been present at all three. From live concerts to in studio monitoring / recording process. I use to hangout in studios in NYC with my musician friends.
What I find surprising still, is most musicians don't necessarily own High-End gear? Although, nowadays studio & home gear are becoming a blur.
"Focal" makes some really Great Active(D amplification) & passive speakers.. that are comfortable in either environments.
Focal is not the only ones either. JBL has of recent years, attempting to recapture its glory with their very nice Blue baffle monitors. I don't think JBL has dabbled into "Active" yet?
Studio playback is closer to Home listening. Thanks to the use of XLR options.
I go back to when JBL & Altec Lansing (which are cousins, if not brothers so to speak) ruled studio monitor scene.
That was the choice of playback we wanted at home. Mostly all our 70s artist were mastered using them!
Sound Reinforcement is a totally different animal. Most of the robust electronics have noisy built in fans for cooling & reliability purposes.
@@alex_stanley Probably a ton? LOL
But, as we have learned power isn't the whole story. Early car amps made that clear with their actual power rating & distortion claims checked.
@@Roof_Pizza @roof pizza And you now have some more info to work with? Read between the lines.
@@jamiesmith6838 Thankfully the latest class D can give high power with very low distortion.
EV is not the future. Battery industry is too polluting
Gene, I'm sitting here laughing. I put together a Purifi from parts with a Ghent Case and a Hypex Smps. It cost me all of $1200, and I'm certain it's performance numbers at least equal NAD's. I'm using it to drive LS 50 Meta, with a SVS SB2000 sub to supplement the bass. The whole thing is part of a 5.1 channel system run by an OCTO Research DAC 8, and it's server is a fanless Mele Quieter 3 with multichannel Dirac Live 3 to make everything work and play nice together.
I'm an audiophile of 47 years, and if someone would have told me even 10 years ago, I would one day be able to put together an audiophile multichannel system of this quality, that works this well for both stereo and 5.1 channel, for around $5k, I would have told them they were nuts.
We are truly in a golden age of audio. We just need to be careful not to slip on the snake oil certain vendors have spilled along the path.
Incredible indeed!
You got to it near the end, one of the biggest benefits of Class D is one most appreciated by my back.
My wallet is reluctant of new tech😂
Will they be cheaper than the current class A/B?
This is your answer; ua-cam.com/video/Eahh4Czp-ko/v-deo.html ... :)
Great post. I think GaNfets are also going to take Class D to another level. Please post your listening tests using the various high end amps you have.
Well stated, but people choose amps based on personal preferences not just impressive lab measurements. It's the reason that tube amps are still popular, and why people prefer certain name brand foods, wines, clothing, watches, cars, etc. over other products that appear to be technically superior.
True indeed. Brand preference and style preference
Yeah but nothing sounds as good as a camed hemi
Thank you for this excellent video. Couldn't agree more. Once these amps start using GaNFET's instead of MOSFET's it's going to be the final nail in the coffin for linear amps. PS Word is, is that McIntosh is working on a D amp.
Agree
There is not only Class D. At high power and voltage levels, "Class I, BCA" by Crown audio (Gerald Stanleys patent used in I-Tech and XTI 6002 amps) will avoid reverse recovery of the MOSFET's body diode vs. standard Class D at the expense of more complexity. Very clever design and the patent will expire soon, so expect to see more amps of those topology in the coming years.....
OMG We got a blow out…man for three…she’s breaking up. We can rebuild it…make it better than before….better…stronger…faster…
I'd like to hear the new crop of GaN class d amps. They seem to be a vast improvement over my 2012 class D audio amp. That had a P/s hum and a bit of a vague treble. It was promising because the bass and mids were very good. I hope class D pushes overweight class A and a/b amps back to the archives of audio. I remember when the audio community raged against class A/B, yet-i've heard too soft class A amps.
Good video- its amazing how well it measured. Did you happen to measure IMD? Will be sure to watch follow up of how it sounds. The only negative I see is seviceability if its built simuliar to the older ones I've looked at. You cant just replace a couple transistors to fix a channel since they use modules which are probably very costly. The switching supply to be that clean would likely be designed simuliar to something in a top end PC which are very complex internally.
Yes and IMD almost always better than THD+N
@@Audioholics Good to know. Thanks
The modules themselves sourced from Hypex, Purifi and others are not overly expensive all things considered.
But regarding proprietary tech introduced by OEM manufacturers YMMV. That will depend on the manufacturer's track record.
I'm sticking with "plain vanilla" for the time being. Swapping amp modules (if ever you should need to) will not bankrupt you.
@@juanmillaruelo7647 Thats good they are available. As long as mfgrs keep parts for up to 10 years after launch I'm OK with it.
Gene I agree, I sold my Class AB amp and am shopping for a class D. I did compare some Class D (Peachtree Gan400, M23, Starkrimson, AHB2 and while they are 80 % of the expensive amps (JC1 Krell etc) they aren't quite as good. Almost though. What is the best class D you have ever listened to?
Re: Pass Labs measurements, did you look at the spectra of the distortion profile? Low-order harmonic distortion is much more pleasing than higher-order of the same magnitude. Nonetheless, explains why you enjoyed listening to it more than measuring it. ;)
Yes the Pass Labs FFT is really nasty even with the higher order spectra. Still, it sounded much better than it measured.
An update on my little big guy TPA3255 amp. It sounds better with a linear PS!
Try a line level booster on it... ;-)
@@michaelwright1602 i used a minimalist tube preamp that's also tube rectified. I'm a happy camper..
Sorry, EV cars are not the future. They are a scam.
Tesla is overpriced but competition will make them more affordable and we are heading there...
John Davis Electric vehicles are the future whether you like it or not! The amount of pollution from vehicles is enormous to the climate and on every humans health!
Already lots of electric buses on public transport. In the not to distant future all buses will be electric or hydrogen fuel cells.
Will take a while longer for cars, vans, lorrys etc. But in 50 years time the majority of vehicles will be electric or non petrol.
@@C--A Doesn't matter what I like or dislike. EV's are not the savior.
Class D amp are light and efficient and don't sound great in upper frequencies. That is of course they are improving and one day soon it will all be Class D
Yes I noticed this with the Audiophonics hpa-T400ET. High frequencies sounded harsh on my Focals. So I sent it back and now my mind is telling me to stay away from class D.
Not true. Change your speaker !
@@r423sdex My speakers are just fine. Sopra 1. Extremely linear. On AND off axis. Never had any issue when playing AB amps. Harshness with class D in treble region. I heard it, and my girlfriend confirmed without me telling her anything. Just asked "what do you think". Tried improving with eq but still sounds bad.
Bass was very good. But the high frequencies sucked. Screamy. Inaudible.
I have the NAD M33 and have read some negative reviews over the past few months. I use them with Klipsch La Scala II speakers and I am blown away with the clarity and detail of this amp.
Auditioned an M33 a few weeks ago. It's almost eerie how good that thing sounds (at least in that room with that content - local high end hifi old school dinosaur style shop)
I auditioned the Nad m33 against the lyngdorf tdai 3400 against my old Yamaha as3000. The Nad was the superior amp. I ultimately chose the lyngdorf only because I preferred roomperfect to Dirac.
Class D amplifiers only measure better than class AB but they do not sound better!! Do not be deceived by all this rubbish. Class D are not fit for true high end audio.
Couldn't agree more. Measurements only tell a small portion of the story. No doubt Class D has come along way, good enough for HT multi channel for average budget setups. But I would still use AB for higher end setups with Separates.
It isn't the class of amplifier that matters, it's how it SOUNDS. Class D has come a long way in the last few years and I daresay will sound better than a similar Class A or AB design. Unfortunately many audiophiles praise the benefits of listening to amplifiers rather than measuring them but then make sweeping statements about an entire class of equipment without listening...
@@chrisantoniou4366 Class D can sound better and measure better in some cases against A/B. But A/B will most likely sound better if they are higher quality. Class A is rare but more likely will sound better. Class D wins the value to price badge in many cases.
@@BrianGarside By definition a "higher quality" amplifier wil sound better, no matter what the class, and that was my point. It's not the "class" it's the quality.
@@chrisantoniou4366 Perhaps, still think Class D apples to apples to A/B wont be as good in certain frequency bands. But for Home theater I'm not too fussy so I can live with D in that setup.
I have tried the Hypex UCD modules and those are garbage for hifi as they give me listening fatigue. But I guess that they are okay for rear channels in a surround setup og a subwoofer.
With which speakers? What amp are you using now instead?
@@ThePentosin My speakers are a pair of Ekta Grande, designed by Troels Gravesen (3 way, with Scan-speak revalator drivers). Now I’m using a Gryphon power amp to drive them. I have also used a NAD S300 integrated amplifier which sound similar to the Gryphon power amp that I now use.
@@3Dmaking Well, ucd is over 10 years old. So it fall i line with the point of the video.
Your speakers going down to 3ohm might exacerbate the issues with it.
Would be interesting to know if the newer ncore would satisfy you.
good for a subwoofer
@@ThePentosin I know. The other amps that I use are +20years. But the impedance load in nothing special from a 4 Ohm speaker. The next amplifier is not going to be anything nCore, but most likely a Parasound Halo JC5 😁
Love my muscle cars Gene, but I am going class D. Dipping my toes with a 3-channel Class D very soon here. As always, thank you for uploading these videos for newbies in Audio like myself.
Gene would you agree that it is precisely this lack of harmonic distortion results in a sterile or lean sound?
Possibly, yes.
Where can I dump my Pass X600.5's? ;-) That picture of the Pass amp that you showed is not the setreo X350.5 AB amp but a Pass XA200.5, 200 Watts Class A monaural amp weighing in at 160 lbs per channel taking in 700 Watts when idling.
NAD M23 Review will be great.
Makes me think of a major loss we had this year in the death of Tommy O'Brien at Digital Amplifier Company. Made one of the best Class D amps for the money, if not the best. Find them used if you can.
Very sad indeed. Tommy was a good guy.
I am sorry, I like tube.
With Preamp Tube and Power monoblock tube
Finish ❤🙏
How about your opinion Sir..? 🙏
everybody thinks class D is still the same trash it was in the early 2000's.... I have been using class D krk monitors on my desktop for several years and have been blown away with them.... PK sound a stage audio company has been using class D for years as well and they blow my mind with what they can do. There are bad Class A amps and there are bad Class D amps.
Class D has been bringing us high power, now it is doing it with refinement. A friend is running a Crown XLS2500 to run his beefy system. The Crown has stupid power and, much to my surprise, it didn't sound rough. His 2500 might not be the most refined thing, but it is good, and as for sheer bang for the buck, the Crowns are hard to beat. The NAD M33 has my full attention though. Power and top notch refinement and fidelity. What is not to like?
Have tested Crown XLS 1502 on KEF R11, Arendal 1723 Tower, Sonus Faber Nova V and sounds wonderful on all. The KEF and Arendals previously powered by Denon 8805HA and the Sonus Faber powered by the excellent ATI NCore. Couldn't hear ANY degradation in sound quality...in fact changing out the denon for the much more powerful Crown brought new life into the KEF and Arendals. There impact on the Arendal was much bigger due to those towers being VERY power hungry and rated @ 400watts 4OHM. Am I saying the Crown are the last word in quality....absolutely NOT. But you will really struggle to find better value in the high power segment. Purifi is the aim but just cannot make myself spend the money to get equivalent.
Another thought is to sell my denon 8805HA and buy the new denon 3800 which apparently will support Audyessy & Dirac and 4 independent subs and use it as a processor with crowns powering bed layer. Interestings times ahead for value driven people.
@@pumpituphomeboy Excellent! Agree 100%. The newer Crowns also incorporate cool features, really amazing for their price. Gain controls, integrated crossover, active cooling and LEDs indicating over temp and clipping. Seeing the clipping or temp LEDs activate would take some doing on a home audio system. Likely the house would suffer structural damage first 😆
Another good 2 channel bang for the buck class D amp to look at is Parasound's ZoneMaster 2350. Match it to their P6 Preamp for a nice system for a fraction of the cost of the comparable PS Audio setup.
Shhhh! Nobody can know about this until my AB amps are sold...
Have listened to icepower, hypex, ganfet, they can be quite good but my class A krell is still better tnan all of them. No worries about the weight (i never move it) and heat ( i heat my listening room 8 months of the year, im paying for the heat anyway 😂
Class D has grown up beautifully the last years. You can now get stereo Hypex amplifiers with 2x200W @4Ohm that measure almost as good as the Purifi based NAD you've shown.
For 500 moneys. 500W monoblocks for the same money, or 4ch ones for 1000. Stellar performance in absolute terms, and value for money is completely ridiculous.
We live in great times, and it's only going to get better. Stellar performance has become affordable for almost everyone! ❤
And now, in late 2024, we're seeing ~$100 class d chip-amps posting crazy good results as well. Not quite to Purifi/Hypex levels of performance, but damn near. So good it's hard to justify spending more.
I have burnt my hand twice in class D
1. Chinese non branded class D from Singapore
2. NAD
And high frequency sounded synthetic. Also hard to describe hollow in low end (bass)
I need clarity and details not power. Also learnt class D uses sampling which is kind of digital type processing.
However blind listening to class D vs class AB,, AB was clear winner
Switched back to pure analogue Class AB and very happy.
Hmmm. I have an M28 on Polk Legend series. I want to test a good A/B up against it. Will provide feedback on your comment. Any particular tracks you want me to use to test?
@@Wozzaatwozza I use Momo (Mindi Abair) and for vocals I will always love you (WHitney Houston) and also Subba Laksmi song from Devudu Chesina Manushulu
@@MrUttammaru thanks.
I’ve been using SACDs Brothers in Arms, Runours, Hotel California, and Love Box. I compare these to regular CD versions and Apple TV. Also Pink Floyd Division Bell Blu Ray. One track I really love for testing music is Faithless ‘The Garden’ from Sunday 8PM CD
@@MrUttammaru just listened to I will always love you. Haven’t heard it for a few years. I used Tidal playback at 88.2k. I heard noise on her mic in the quiet section at the beginning, the sax is clean.
Momo is awesome, 🙏 the bass rocks, so many instruments, I love the percussion. Nice guitar and bass guitar. Thx. It’s a very good recording.
@@Wozzaatwozza thanks i also use Hotel California but the live version I don't have in floc or wav
I moved to class d AGD Gran Vivace because of the impressive measurements and initially very impressive sound/listening, BUT, I still prefer the experience, the musical/emotional poor measuring connection I get from my Line Magnetic 845 premium tubes, Border Patrol 300B tubes. So after an impressive, but less enjoyable 18 months, the AGD’s are gone and I’m looking for class A to provide the tube like musicality with SS kick, as well as being stable at under 2 ohm (speaker choice), I’m not aware of any class D or tube amp that can do that. Good for those who can get their fix from Class D, I’m happy for you. Hopefully I’ll be able to return some day.
I wish I could find a lower-wattage Class D guitar amp just for practice purposes. The lowest wattage I see in all my Googling is 50W, which I feel is way too much just for bedroom or small garage use. Even as efficient as D's are, no use in letting all that power go to waste, or having to get an attenuator for hundreds more dollars.
Gene, would you put the ATI class D amps in the same recommended category as the NAD and Monolith? I have a local dealer who would likely give me a deal on the ATI and according to Monolith/Monoprice, they won't offer fewer channels in their class D amps until some time in 2023.
I using class D amp since 2012 and I’m very much satisfied. It’s pioneer sc LX 82. Which has B&O ice module and have the possibility to active bi-amping . I’m Running a pair of TAD S1-EX ( Pioneer), a very difficult speaker to drive. I know I should have gone for a pair of Belcanto monoblock, in future maybe I will. I had pre-power from Copland, and some other power hungry amps, but at the end I’ve sold them and stay with something more efficient. Trust me electricity in Europe is very expensive and if I can get almost same satisfaction from a class D then it’s better to stick with it.
I love my nCore amp, but wouldn’t throw out and Accuphase or Luxman.
Colleague, if you compare with analog amplifiers, you need to focus on the best models. Here is one of them: ua-cam.com/video/3w3kLuS-gck/v-deo.html . Obviously, the "D" class needs to grow to the best representatives of the "AB" class of the mid-80s
Anyone here ACTUALLY running Martin Logan ELECTROSTATIC speakers with the newer type of class D amps (Hypex NcoreX NCx500 or Purifi 1ET7040)? I just want to know how these amps "sound" driving large electrostatic speakers, not just easy to drive surround speakers.
I have a Nad M2 - still going strong, very happy with it, neutral and clean.
So I guess you're not familiar with the measurements of the Topping LA90 amp. Class A/B
I can't find any measurements besides the manufacturer's claim, can you point me to any review? Looks good indeed. I wonder what's inside the box. A separate power supply - that's cheating, though. That's why the enclosure is so small.
@@VioletGiraffe Check audio science review...
i dont care about classes i only care about sound... and weight.. must save my back you know
Years ago I used to think an audiofile was someone interested in reproduction of music or sound exactly as it originally is, but apparently people spend lots of bucks to alter the signal to a more pleasurable sound, thus coloration or distortion rather that transparency or (garbage in garage out) reproduction.
I used to be into the religion of tube amplification, believing it was neutral in signal reproduction.
I had a vicious exchange with a guy who claimed valves were superior but eventually he admitted the "warmness" that tube amps could best present was distortion technically.
I guess I want to hear a Ravel symphony exactly as it originally sounds, for the least amount of money.
Sorry guys, I guess if that means digital into a class D amp, I guess I'm HiFi not audiofile.
I understand my bass amps, (for upright and bass guitar ), color the sound as preferred or not by musicians, but I will rank them in order of most transparent to least.
1. Ampeg SVT pro 4
1200 watts into 4 ohms. Class AB solid state.
As clean or transparent as a good quality stereo receiver, lots of headroom and great for reproduction of upright bass or loud rock .
Heavy as hell 41 pounds. Impractical to gig with small combos.
3. Old Ampeg V4 tube amp. 100 watts
Fairly transparent if retubed every two years , if not mushy.
Yes expensive to maintain.
50 or 60 pounds, with such limited headroom.
Sits on shelf.
4. Some model Peavy, donated to school because of weird colorations that sound cool for some kinds of rock. Strange that it sounds the least transparent considering it's AB solid state.
110 Watts into 4 ohm and only 20 pounds, easy to carry.
So what about #2?
2. Genz Benz 900 watt into 4 ohm class D amp.
I've done an A-B comparison between this amp and the Ampeg SVT4Pro amp and I believe the ampeg is only slightly more transparent but probably cleaner when driven hard.
The thing is that this Genz Benz amp, being class D, weighs only around 6 pounds!
When I first purchased it, before I turned it on, I assumed it had to be a white van special.
I've got an old jvc receiver in one listening room that sounds fine but unnatural, I'll replace it with the best sounding integrated amp in my price range and it won't be a tube hybrid and may be Class B.
I apologize if I offended anyone's component religion, but just my opinion.
Great video by the way
Any reviews coming for the Monoprice Monolith Hypex amps?
Yeah I've been hearing Class D, or Class UDF (Panasonic invented?) for the high end type of sound quality while reducing the power you need. (for the audiophile?) here lately. And surprised to not hear about the Class UDC amplifiers till a few years ago. Probably because I just wasn't buying the hype. To get great to exceptional sound quality has been power, power, and more power. Speakers are just terribly inefficient devices, but really who cares if they sound great right? I'll pay the electric bill to have quality music. But if Class D with their higher efficiency could match Class A/B, or I've heard beat "the best" SQ amplifier which many believe are a Class B/H amplifier would be nice.But just not sure that can really happen. I know Class D gets regulated to subwoofers for the most part. And do well in that environment because of their very narrow frequency band. So I'll keep an open mind. Just don't expect me to hold my breath. LOL
Great for active crossovers, not so great with passive. High damping aspect too does not work well with some designs that benefit from a bass overhang.
"bass overhang" sounds like distortion to me - it sounds like the "design" is a flaw... you want the woofer to not follow the output signal but smooth or round it out? i think you're wrong. better control over the woofers is better. if this results in somewhat less full sounding bass / less spl at certain frequencies, EQ it back in. the amp should ideally be in perfect 1:1 control of the speaker position at all times in theory. if i'm missing something do explain i'm open to it.
So true, class D is KING! LOVE MY CROWN XLS1502 2x 525W at 4ohm!!! eat that
But how does it sound Gene? I need a global warming amp. It's going to be 110F today here in the Central Valley in CA. I have to have a fan blow into my room to keep it comfortable enough even with central air on. My JC5 idles at 225 watts
For AV application, agree class D is very appropriate; however, as an owner of several class D amps and class A/B amps, I cannot take the sound of class D for listening into music (i.e. really listening into the music not just background sound) for periods of time over an hour. It just sounds too artificial to me. I like/prefer D for surround application, but not stereo. My D amps are decently high end and I've been to audio shows listening to some of the "best" D amps on the market, and still have the same impression. It is great to look at my power conditioner and see the class D pulling a meer 0.6 amps as compared to a chunky A/B which idles at 1.8 amps. For now I need to have both D and A/B in my lineup as D still butchers the midrange of music, yet has excellent control over bass drivers. In time some form of D topology will probably do it all, particularly if it can be made to sound "tubie" for those of us who love the holographic sound of tube amplifiers.
I don’t mind embracing new tech. Good shout. But time to dump that old tech? Hmmm, ok Gene… hey by the way, is that a turntable we can see over your right shoulder?
It shouldn't be about old tech or new tech, it's about sound quality. Even if you decide that yes, the new amp is far superior, you still need to decide for yourself if changing over is worth the money.
@@chrisantoniou4366 What I agree with in the video is that people should try to look past there preconceptions. What I disagreed with was that they should dump their old gear. I know Gene was just saying that to get a rise and didn’t mean it literally but a lot of followers hang on his every word so I thought I’d point out the very old tech sat behind him. And on ‘tech’, particularly distortion, once it’s below a certain threshold it may still be technically audible by our ear/brain (which is why perhaps why odd vs even harmonics are important) but the majority of us aren’t going to notice it. The level present is a sign perhaps of a good design but also an excuse to charge a premium. At the end of the day, as you say, it comes down to how it sounds and are you due an upgrade.
@@asx1248 Agree. In the end it's YOUR money and if it's worth it to your ears, then upgrade.
I have a Peachtree Nova 300 (class D) on one of my systems, and two Parasound Monoblocks (ClassA/B) for the other. I love both but have never noticed a significant difference in quality.
yours is the kind of input this conversation needs
Bullshit.
But thanks for posting.
Bullshit. But thanks for your post !
Really like the Hypex / IcePower Class-D amps. As long as you have 150W per channel of
I don't disagree the hypex stuff is good, but 1%? i only look to see how high the power goes before it hits the corner and starts a steep climb, and consider it's power to be whatever it puts out at 1 or 2 orders of magnitude less distortion than that. you could argue .1% i'll accept that. plenty of amps out there with good power at .01% (as he showed here). 1% is kind of high. my ta-3020 based amp is doing over 100w at like .02%.
@Audioholics let me add that Hi-End Audio is Dead along with Transistor Amps