Incredible that Yvonne Strahovski improvised that dive to the ground to shout in her face. That terrified me when I first saw it, and it did in this video as well. Bravo to that acting.
Definitely improved on the role. As much as I loved the book, I definitely think this casting choice made her character far more dynamic than in the book where she was less of a character and more an aspect of the environment.
Yvonne's acting is one of the best thing of this show. Most of the time Yvonne's acting is more believable than Elisabeth's. Just my opinion. Emmy snubbed Yvonne.
Have you observe/lived through up close abuse like this ? You do disappear, push down emotions and sometimes events trigger You back to your fighting spirit which gets horrifyingly crushed. But life cries through and picks through with such rage sometimes.. She does it amazingly because it Is hard to grasp, how playing along is sometimes as much of a weapon of survival and little death, ends of your sense of self.. pushing back brings a risk of showing another part of you to kill and crush. She is hugely strong for everything her character goes through.
@@marionmetathink3234 who r u talking about? Elizabeth? If u're talking about Elizabeth's acting i totally agree of all u said, is just i think in some scenes Yvonne did slightly better for me.
I don't mind the change, actually, but that explanation? Ugh. "The only thing I lacked was direct competition between the two women" is such a guy thing to say, such a masculine perspective. I think the book version was not a coincidence since in that world the handmaids were owned and used by the elite, both male and female, they were not their equals, so that's why they couldn't be considered competition in that sense.
I agree it sounds pervy. But I also agree with him to an extent. It's not competive on Junes side, But I can see how someone in Serenas position could be threatend by a woman coming in and giving her husband something she can't and fear that dynamic could threaten her marriage even by a slimey husband.
However, if Mrs Waterford is past menopause there would not be a doubt about why no children are born in that household. The show inserted a twist by discussing who actually causes the childlessness, men or women. This would not have been as possible with an elderly couple getting a handmaid.
I understood it less of him wanting competition between them because they're two women, but because stories are driven by conflict. It's what gives energy to scenes and actors something to play with.
Having a younger Serena Joy makes her look more tragic and helpless, stuck at home all day with her hair in a bun and no sex. All that rage building up inside her. It's also more relevant to America 2017 where girl-next-door types rather than old dames are ambassadors of the alt-right. Just look at France's beautiful blonde Marie-Marechal Le Pen as the face of the French far-right
yeah the serena in the movie and in the books seems to portray a woman who's youth and fertility have escaped her. With a younger Serena it seems more tragic. All the things she could be doing but can't now because of her own deeds.
Totally, having her not being able to get pregnant not because of age but Destiny/God is a far better choice, also her being an author rather than a televangelist works better cause it shows she's intelligent, this is not Tammy Baker, this is Tommy Lahren/a young Ann Coulter
BUT what happens when Ann Coulter/Tommi whatsherface get replaced with a younger, subservient...ie perfect woman, in this New Order they have help create and they have to live in a house with this woman? THAT was what was so fascinating about an older Serena Joy. She was old enough to realize "Crap...I am not young and pretty anymore and I helped make this happen!"
It makes sense that Serena and Fred are younger in this version because we see such a young, highly (militantly) conservative regressive influence that’s generating online right now (you know exactly who I’m talking about). Making them old and grey would show that they represent something from the past that the youth (the Handmaid’s, the resistance, June’s friends and young family) would’ve immediately rejected and not fit in with- there would be too clear of a distinction. We see now that the scariest statements and ideologies are coming from these increasingly popular young pundits because their regressive ideas can’t be attributed to their upbringing/ era/ power they’ve generated over time. While making Serena an older televangelist works in a 1980’s mindset of a dystopian future, Serena being a young, attractive fundamentalist author who did press tours and had social media devoted to her cause is more affective in a post-2018 context. Serena is a complex character in that she built part of the cage she’s in. She’s educated and successful and thought she’d maintain some level of intellectual respect and power over Gilead. She quickly learned that all she did was dig her own grave. Her ideas about liberation for women through traditional (and archaic) roles backfired and her struggle with her beliefs/ insecurity is incredible to watch. I wonder a lot about how women on a similar crusade will feel down the line.
In a way it makes sense to have Serena Joy be in that age bracket where even her own biology is screaming at her to have a baby, it gives realism and pressure to the situation.
Reason for Serena Joy to be younger - they are selling a tv show. Duh. This guy with the "you feel like I'd love to see them in a cage match." Um no, not really.
misstigermilk yeah this dude kinda creeped me out lol his description felt just a little belittling to the actresses. I wouldn't have even noticed it if the show wasn't so fundamentally about patriarchy so even the little comments feel massively inappropriate
I think having a younger Serena Joy just makes it all the more difficult, she's not past her typical time yet. She is a young woman who has been disadvantaged in fertility. Being older would suggest Serena had a chance, maybe somewhere at some point to become pregnant, but being younger, she never had that chance, and that's why it may become more emotional and explosive in her performance.
I think he touches on the real reason and just didn't elaboriate. The cage match thing was ridiculous but with Serena being younger you DO feel like they might be friends in other circumstances but in this world it's just not going to happen and THAT is sad and give me feels.
A 40 to 45 year old Serena Joy could have been an attractive, more believable in her past and past prime fertility. The producers just want younger women.:-/
Why? It legitimately was a fair comment - he's literally saying they're both formidable forces, and is considering who would win in a fight. TF is wrong with that?
Because its creepily voyeuristic and references a kind of female competition specifically designed for male titillation. I think his interpretation of their relationship is way off mark--luckily, though, Elisabeth and Yvonne know what they're doing--in that he is applying almost a catfight-style competition to them, rather than the dynamic power relationship the actors have created. I think, as well, he should have just been honest. They cast a younger actor because sex sells.
Wow you took that last sentence whyyy too literal, it's in the same mind frame of "they go at it like cats and dogs". Or when people say " I'd hate to see those two go one-on-one". He's talking about how both characters are in this consist battle and he'd like to see who would win. And don't we all want to see who wins at the end of this story?
Although I also don't feel sorry for her, what do you mean she is at fault for everything wrong in her life? One of the biggest miseries of her life is that she's infertile, how is she to blame?
That's the same misery that millions of other women in her world also suffer from. She's not alone or special in that agony. But Serena's answer to this problem was kidnap women who CAN have babies, kill their husbands, steal their children away from them, brainwash them, torture them, enslave them, rape them, force them to bare children that she will then take away from them by force. She's a goddamn monster. SHOULD she really be a mother? Does she DESERVE a child?
I had a little sympathy for her right until episode 10, the sympathy is no longer there at all. She is deranged in her own disadvantaged world she created.
I recall the flashback when their previous handmaid killed herself and she asks Fred, "what did you THINK would happen?" Looking at the disconnection and the lack of intimacy and basic consideration in her marriage and her husband's sexual pursuit of the handmaids, one would ask, when she decided non-procreative sex between married spouses should be illegal and you should bring other women into the home to replace you in bed, what did she THINK would happen? Seems stupid to cry about it now.
Ugh. I love Serena joy's character so much. She had previously been very intelligent and a leader but even she was affected by Gilead and everything she worked hard to achieve was stripped from her
Victoria Yost Have you read the book though? She pretty much drafted her own downfall. She just didn't imagine what she sold would actually turn against her one day. The bitter conclusion to a Phyllis Schlafly-like character, if you will.
She fought so hard to achieve Gilead. That was her mission. I just don’t think she envisioned how little she’d be involved. I think that’s why she rules the house in the manner she does. She’s used to being strong, powerful, and having people follow her; now she has to play the housewife and treating June the way is the only way she gets to feel a glimpse of her former self. I don’t think she’s happy one bit, I think she’s just on the better side of a bad situation so she’s playing the cards she’s dealt. Remember, the alternative would be the colonies or becoming a Handmaid herself.
Of course she does. She's the reason there are handmaids in the first place. This was her vision... Well... It was her vision that brought all of this about I should say, which I think is one of the HUGE ironies in the book/show. A WOMAN inflicted this fate upon women!!!
Victoria Yost That’s the whole point: she fought for this to happen. She *WANTED* this to happen. It looked great on paper. What she didn’t factor in, though, is how it would actually make her feel. I think one of the most chilling things in regards to her story is when they brought up that she can’t even read her own book she wrote. Regardless, I don’t feel bad for her in the slightest. She brought this upon herself. “I didn’t think they would eat MY face” said the woman who voted for the giraffes-eating-peoples’-faces party...
Ugh, me too. It’s ironic. He’s working on a show that deals with the horrors of extreme sexism, yet he manages to come across as incredibly sexist. It’s creepy.
Wow you took that last sentence whyyy too literal, it's in the same mind frame of "they go at it like cats and dogs". Or when people say " I'd hate to see those two go one-on-one one". He's talking about how both characters are in this consist battle and he'd like to see who would win. And don't we all want to see who wins at the end of this story?
They casted a younger actress because it's a heckin TV series, it's just what they do. In the novel, the Commander is an old man with grey hair and not in the slightest way attractive yet they cast a younger, hot guy for the show. Because the opposite wouldn't make sense and would be weird to watch on TV. And I also feel like there was no need whatsoever to have "competition" between Offred and Serena Joy because in my understanding, the characters' relationship in the novel wasn't at all based on that. But I understand the need for romanticizing and dramatizing things a lot more in TV. I love this series regardless and think it's a great adaptation.
But these are the differences from the book that makes it look less like a lesser form of the book and more like its own thing with its own fans and own discussion
Part of me agrees with you and part of me doesn't. There is more competition between Serena and Offred because you feel more emotion from Serena. She wants a baby but really hates offred because she can offer Fred what she can't. With an older Serena there's not much competition because she's old so her not being able to have children could be due to her age so there isn't much hatred coming from her.
I had to study the handmaids tale novel for school. The reimagining and new creation that the show has done is absolutely stunning. It gives a new life to Margret Atwood’s novel.
The age is a side issue. What I want to know is why they took away the great ironic heart of the character, namely that before the war, Serena Joy was a famous televangelist. This situation wasn't something that was cooked up for the war - Serena had spent YEARS advocating exactly this kind of thing. There's a line in the book that sums it all up perfectly, when Ofglenn is thinking about how Serena is just as imprisoned as herself, "How furious she must have been to have been taken at her word." Now that most basic bitterness - having all her fame and power stripped away by getting what she demanded, and then finding out it's hell - is gone, and that's too bad, because it was one of the best things about the book, in my opinion. (I really don't get some of the changes made, some of them make little sense, and some seem to be made solely to keep from upsetting somebody.)
They touched on that when they had Serena say in a conversation with her husband 'I helped you write it' when talking about the constitution of Giliad. But yes, I agree, that Serena played a much bigger part in the creation of her downfall than is being shown.
Didn't you watch episode 6? Or did you watch the show at all? This Serena was an author and wrote "a woman's place" advocating for "domestic feminism" She even helped write the laws of Gilead! We saw that in both ep 6 and 10. That is a lot more ironic, than the book Serena, that was _only_ a televangelist.
I think Serena thought that she was going to be an exception, that she would be one of the few worthy women allowed a place of power, and I think she never imagined that her husband would come to disregard and disrespect her. She seemed to think they would maintain a level of emotional and intellectual equality within their proscribed genderized roles and Fred would confer and strategize with her and didn't see it coming. It didn't seem to dawn on her that he would internalize his compatriots ideas about women's places and apply it literally and directly to his own marriage. It should have, but it somehow it didn't. Nor did she realize Fred's capacity for moral hypocrisy. It isn't that far fetched, though, for people to get exactly what they thought they wanted and then find out they hate it. That doesn't ring false at all.
+Kowalski K Didn't you read the BOOK? No, it's not more ironic. An author is not in front of her readers, right there on the screen, talking to them. She was FAMOUS, as in "people know your face" famous. As in "people think you love them because you talk to them through the TV" famous. In this day and age, NO author can compete with a media personality when it comes to fame, recognition, and power. SHE HAD ALL THREE. Really, I understand you like the series, but don't be ridiculous.
+moonlilly1 I didnt' say it rang false. I said her character's irony was greatly diminshed because she lost EVERYTHING SHE HAD. She lost all the power (among fundamentalists, the televangelists have a considerable amount of power), she lost the recognition (of which she had A LOT, because televangelist), she lost the prestige (ditto). It was not a matter of "my husband thinks I'm not all that anymore". It was a PUBLIC humiliation, a stripping of her PUBLIC power, the loss of any influence that was WELL KNOWN. There's a huge difference between your husband deciding you don't get to do things and the ENTIRE SOCIETY deciding that.
Look, I could give you a million reasons why it's better from a storytelling and visual perspective to have younger characters, and why I understand his use of the term "competition", but you would just put your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala".
John Palermo it's not the violence, it's the male fantasy of women physically interacting; if it's not direct sex it's fighting (where clothes and hair get torn).
Of course I mean interacting in a sexual way, otherwise I wouldn't have used the word fantasise. I was choosing to be polite, but now, you've decided to nitpick and put words into my mouth. Of course I don't mean to include gay men. But you've decided to pounce on every little way you can turn my statement on its head, haven't you? Like ALL HETEROSEXUAL NEOLIBERAL MEN do. Just like I predicted you would. You won't enjoy me calling you out on this, I assume. Which is why I enjoy doing it oh so very much.
I agree with you. I love the show, but I almost feel as if it has succeeded despite this man's vision. I feel he completely missed the point of the tension between the older Serena Joy, who is past her prime, and the young Offred, who is still there to replace her and is a constant reminder to Serena of her inadequacies (i.e. infertile, arthritic, etc). Why else did Atwood make these choices for that character? I am disappointed by this man's frankly typical male gaze.
id like to know why a man saying "i'd like to see [two women] go toe-to-toe in a cage match" and "the thing that i am lacking is competition between two women" is directing a show about FEMALE EMPOWERMENT.
First of all, he's not the director, he's the showrunner, so if you liked season one, you should thank him. Secondly, it's possible to have more than one thought in your head you know. It may be about female empowerment for you, but you don't have the right to dictate what the show means to me or anyone else for that matter. And regardless, it is still a drama show, and it's fiction, and without drama and fiction, no one will watch.
S Rebecca He thinks feeling sorry for Serena Joy is a seemingly impossible task. Serena Joy isn't the villan of the story. She's another victim who happened to have a hand in creating her current situation. Just because she has an elevated role for a woman in this society, doesn't change the fact that she has little control over her own life. She responds to her new role in life by acting out in the only way she can; by being cruel to those with less status than her.
Oh I think shes a villain She helped CREATE the nightmare. She is not at all a victim of it as a result. She is getting the consequences of her acts. Oh, dont forget in the movie she was in on all the terrorist attack plans...pretty evil to me.
Serena is interesting because she's as much a victim as a villain. She helped create it, but she obviously didn't think it through. Her main goal was to get women to "embrace their biological destiny" and stop putting their careers first. What she is caught up in now is something she didn't expect to be so terrible. We see her try to make it better when the commander is in the hospital, we ser her genuine concern for the babies. We also see her get violent, selfish and out of control. She is so "gray", it's very interesting.
S Rebecca Villain is too simple of a term for her. Her character is complex. That's why I loveeee the series. Serena has done TERRIBLE, UNSPEAKABLE things. That is a fact. But she isn't maniacal. She initially believed in the cause. And sometimes in life, bad things happen on the path to bring forth crucial change or good (i.e. war). Countries interfere with others countries in the name of "helping" or "preventing harm" all the time. And interfering countries will always be seen as enemies to some and hero's to others. So in her mind, she 'did what she had to do.' While still believing (at least moderately) in the cause, she eventually starts to act "villainy" in Gilead- still not out of twisted enjoyable malice- but in a way that fiercely protects her, belief, pride, guilt, shame and pysche. In short, she's in survival mode. This is not at all to say she is in the right. Right and wrong isn't really what I'm addressing in this comment. Rather her motives or reasoning. I love Serena because she isn't just good or bad, as with so many tv or movie characters. She's just like 'real life' humans. There is good and bad in everyone. Sometimes we go in and out of phases where we veer closer to one side of the spectrum or the other. So it's near impossible to sum anyone up as purely good or bad. I can loathe, pity and root for Serena all at the same time (ever have a loved one or friend who did not so great things, yet you still felt connected to and invested in them because you knew them beyond the bad things they did?) She's just a very conflicted and broken woman, who operates in her present world not with a drive to hurt, rather a drive for self-preservation & to preserve what she still believes in, a drive to find meaning and happiness, as well as a drive to protect herself and the justifications for the world she helped create (Gilead). Hurting others is a byproduct of her motives and existence. Again, not saying it's excusable. We have to face the consequences for our actions, regardless of intentions. But she isn't simply a villain. Nearly all of the characters in the series are far from simple or one dimensional. Even Fred has some dimension 😅
for those of you who read the book, specifically the epilogue... isn’t it quite ironic how a man changed certain chatacters from the novel so his perception of situations would be “better” in his eyes? think it all ties in rlly interestingly with the overall themes of atwoods book..
Yvonne deserves all the Awards! In this season 2 she went beyond! A M A Z I N G...and Serena is such a great great character, that will surprise us all even more, I'm sure.
I came to this series pretty late. I'm only on episode 3 but I'm loving it. Something fundamental that I don't get is what role these supreme leaders think stress might play in effecting conception? Isn't it known now that of your undergoing life threatening stress and you simultaneously have fertility issues the two are probably related? Why then would they design a system where they inflict massive amounts of psychological and physical stress on bodies they are hoping will bear children in a future dystopia where no one can get pregnant? Seems immensely counterproductive.
It's because they don't care about the women's feelings. They don't understand that women under stress are less likely to be able to reproduce. They don't care about how stressed the women are, because they don't think women's feelings are valid. All the women in this society are dehumanized by everyone around them, thus the "womb on legs" comparison.
If they cared about the women it would be a different society. And lots of babies are born from mothers under extreme stress. In America, a huge part of the population are descendants of raped slaves. The history of the US bears witness that it is possible to use and rape a woman and not care for her, and to choose to care for, or to just use the child. The Handmaiden is a story put together from things that have happened or happens, and some of these things right at your doorstep.
They justify their view/treatment of women from old testament scripture. God put them there to reproduce so whether they are stressed or not, it is their duty. Also on that notion, many children are conceived at times of stress and conflict. Stress affects fertility and conception but only by a little. If you are truly fertile not much will stop you from conceiving. You could have a fertile woman kidnapped, shackled, raped daily, and kept in tarp tents and she could and would still conceive children.
I sort of get what he means about the age thing - an older Serena cannot bear children, so the competition is more direct if the character is younger. But he's so wrong about us not being able to empathise with her unless she's a young woman - even Offred feels sorry for her in the book! Whatever her age is, and however awful she is to Offred, she too is trapped in a horrifying situation with no escape. Also, cutting the televangelist background is really missing a trick there, it makes her circumstances even more ironically tragic.
I actually liked this change from the book. At first seeing a younger Mr. and Mrs. Waterford looked weird to me. But their acting is amazing and once I got into it, I totally agree with this adaptation.
Not getting the hate over his last comment. Having both characters younger makes the conflict more physical, perhaps more visceral. Just a different dynamic. If it's so controversial what he said, why is women's combat sport a thing? Certainly there are male fans of that as well
Everyone is taking his cage match comment WAY out of context - YOU'RE all sexualizing it, he clearly wasn't. He was just expressing in a lamen's way of saying both of the women are incredibly strong in their own right, their characters are forces to be reckoned with, and he's saying in a simplistic way that "whoa, they're so tough I wonder who would win in a fight?" It's just an offhanded simple comment, some of you are turning into this whole other thing it doesn't need to be.
He didn't make the comment in a vacuum. He's perfectly aware of the connotations of female cage matches, and of the sexualized nature of performative fighting by women for men. And if you watch the show or read the book and think "who would win in a fight," you've missed the point of it entirely. "Cage-match competition" is so not the relationship between Offred and Serena, and instead reflects a stereotypical catfight image that resonates with the exact ideology of Gilead. It's a good thing Yvonne and Elisabeth did their research and are both amazing actors, because the male-led production team is lost.
The show did not change the character, even in the books Serena Joy is meant to show the readers that all women are victims not just the handmaids, and that it is not simply about fertility its about the patriarchy, and men wanting power and wanting to dominate women, the book is meant to show the dangers of extremism; not one women is portrayed as evil in the book not even aunt Lydia, in the book Offred reflects on that infact and says she was probably indoctrinated just like she herself was. Yes maybe Serena Joy had grey hair in the book but she is still a victim just as much as Offred is...
Maria Ciappara nope serena will never be a victim ..... any woman who is ok with another woman’s repeated rape , a woman who encourages her husband to rape another pregnant woman to induce the pregnancy , a woman who helped made the law of handmaids is a truly despicable animal . Women like serena are the true monstrous villains for other women ....
Director: "I'd like to see them toe to toe in a cage match." Man this is the very statement that defines the patriarchy which is the central the of the story
There didn't need to be a direct competition between the two characters. Serena Joy was the oppressor, the antagonist. In making Serena Joy younger for this reason the writers ignore a fundamental criticism of the novel, they strip the motivations and self worth of women to be solely directed by their need/ability to bear children.
I like that they changed it, I think it adds more colour to the story and makes it more realistic. We still get to see that situation you're talking about with Ofwarren and her Mrs. and another side to it with the first Ofglen after she became Ofsteven(Emily) and her Mrs. who is old but nice to her, even willing to fake an illness to get her out of Ceremony night.
Call me Your Dai5y Yea but nobody is just pure evil. There is a deeper element to seeing Serena Joy be vulnerable. To not establish that in the book is ok, but in a show or movie, we see more defined characteristics of each person. It is a very successful fleshing out of the character that we see how she took part in building her own guilded cage. She is a repressor but she is still repressed as well. It makes for a more complex and deeply troubled character.
As I recall,there are hints here and there in the book of Serena's vulnerabilities--in her first conversation with Offred, for instance, she says something to the effect that "My husband is just that, MY husband, off limits for you". Also, there's a later moment of Offred, reflecting about Serena's role in designing Gilead, says "She's become voiceless, how furious she must be to be taken at her word."
This is cool and the acting turned out amazing but I definitely don’t agree that Serena needed to be younger so there could be “competition”. I think that decision was about what they thought was good TV and men liking this idea of women competing- hence the whole cagematch comment. No woman would ever make that comment. I also think that having an older Serena is also extremely powerful because she has a whole history that is so interesting and complex. It adds a lot to the plot, her as a person and her dynamic with Offred. And it adds to the intensity and complexity of the book. Not having Serena be older makes it easy to not have to deal with that nuanced, difficult discussion
I don't think the similar age worked for many reasons...and I am almost certain that the main reason the TV show changed the age was that they wanted attractive actors. An important part of the relationship dynamic in the book is the age difference.
I feel like a lot of people misinterpreted the character of Serena Joy. They just see her as this evil b****, instead of a woman with a complex psychology. All the other characters in the show are either good or evil, Serena is the only one that has some depth, the only was that isn't one-dimensional. People should really show more understanding for her character, because she embodies the women-hating woman, and we have a lot of those in this world and I think it's important to try to understand them and help them because in the end, how miserable do you have to be in order to hate your own sex?
Yup, its ageism. "We wanted a physically intimidating actress" It's such a bullshit justification, cause you know an older woman could not be physically intimidating- Jessica Lange or Laurie Metcalf could not have pulled off the creepy sensitivity- give me break.
It's not Offred's fault that she is not pregnant nor is it's Serena Joys Character's fault either. It's probably Fred, Offfred's commander who is probably infertile. It's probably his fault that Offred is not pregnant.
I wondered (with the premise of her being younger) if in fact Serena could get pregnant. I guess she would have been tested but wouldn't be we weird if Serena slept with someone else and got pregnant.
However, the generational shift also works - as you had the book's Serena Joy based on Phyllis Schafly, who fought against the ERA... and Suzanne Venker - Phyllis's niece, and where aunt and niece cowrote The Flipside of Feminism - real-world A Woman's Place. Yvonne is playign an expy of Venker.
Im very surprised by the lack of common sense from some of the people in the comment section. The guy in the video made a comment about going toe to toe which is a common phase, hes saying he'd like to see who's gonna win. And his comment about the confrontations between the two actresses makes sense, it is very hard bc they both have to keep in all of their emotions and pretend they are cold when inside you know june wants to scream and run and say how she feels and vice versa for Serena.
I think the real reason it was important for the change for the Serena character to be younger was to show an issue we are having in todays society.Many of today's women are having a harder time having babies and finding alternate, sometimes drastic options in order to accomplish your human right to become a mother.This heartbreak and real experience is relevant to audience.
Loved it. This show is so rich. And those two female caracthers in particular are so well developed and represented. I think the most important part about that constantly iminent fight, is that evil is not self-proclaimed.
Yeah it is really creepy that sometimes you see they may be friends in a normal world. I felt it during watching the show, but now I understand my emotional state about those two.
i dont see the problem with the cage match statement. its not like he was talking about it in a sexualized context. its pretty clear he was talking about serena's physical strength over june. the fact that he compares her to a linebacker is clear his mind isnt on a sexy mud fight. he's talking about yvonne's height and how she gets in June's face and about how physically intimidating serena is because shes younger than her book counter part. she wouldnt break a hip trying to fight june and because she's stronger than june she poses a physical threat to her if June ever tries something. Serena could very well kick june's ass.
He was talking about her being physically intimidating ie staring her down up close, forcing her to look up to her. He never said intimidating means being physically imposing. It is a type of intimidation. I could go deeper but if you don't get it by now there's no point.
Anthony Cheeseborough "[Yvonne] is quite tall, and that works really well with [Elisabeth] who is more small" - he says this right before talking about her being intimidating. Also, it seems you've missed _my_ point. Intimidation doesn't have to physical. In the book, Serena Joy is a middle aged woman but she's still intimidating because she has power over Offred.
I will never connect with the television series in the same way that I did with the novel, I just don’t feel as though they accurately captured the character of Serena Joy in the way the Atwood created her and intended her it be
I wish there were a Handmaid's Tale club I could attend biweekly. I've seen it 3 times, and am bordering on obsessed with the show.... will def need to read the book someday!
I liked the choice to make Serena Joy younger, but not for the reasons he describes. His comments made me cringe a bit due to him not realizing how misogynistic and ableist it sounded because of his wording. I like the idea of making Serena Joy younger and almost the same age as Offred because it shows the extreme dichotomy between the two and the differences between their lives, before and after Gilead. It makes it interesting because the only thing keeping Serena from being a handmaid herself is if she wasn’t married, infertile, and one of the people trying to create Gilead. Their positions could have easily been switched if those factors were not in place, and it is a great way of symbolizing how rich, conservative anti-choice women are complicit in the policing and commodification of other women’s bodies who are of a different social or class status than them.
All these comments about this guy just shows how toxic the state of modern feminism is. A man says something about the two characters fighting each other for control and you take it out of context and crucify the dude. Why can’t we (men) watch this, appreciate the characters, recognize the struggle, and enjoy the show without being vilified simply for our gender?
Sorry, but I can't empathize with her. She's responsible not only for the sexual and labor exploitation and oppression of June but of everyone else's. This tactic of building this forced empathy between June and Serena (empathy not very reciprocal, by the way) almost made lose all sympathy for June because it's so naive of her to expect that the woman who exploits and assaults her will feel sorry and empathy for her. That scene from S02 where June slips away and gives up on killing both Fred and Serena made much more angry than empathetic.
Most of the comments here are about that last sentence and I feel like everyone is not interpreting it right. First of all, he is the showrunner, did amazing so far and works with mostly women to make this happening. Saying he doesn't get what the show is about, doesn't line up. Before his last sentence, he talks about how Yvonne and Elisabeth are both strong. I think it's clear he's not talking about physical strength. The relation between June and Serena is shifting constantly and there is always some kind of tension. Both are held back, though. Serena can't really hurt June or send her away. June can't speak too much, or she will face consequences. I think he meant to say that it would make an interesting scene if the restrictions for both are gone and they could really say and do what they want, especially due to the actresses talent. It's a metaphor, not a comment to bring women down.
Serena Joy is my favorite character on the show because I feel she accurately depicts so many women in today's world. Women who are oppressed have so much anger inside of them and they are not allowed to express it, so unfortunately they express it through the only outlet they feel they can- towards other women or towards children. People who they can lash out at without as much consequence; and in season 1 we've seen Serena is a threat to women AND to children. This is why if you'll notice, so many overly religious women are so catty with one another and often judge each other more harshly than they do the men. It's clearest in islam, the muslim women of certain countries are often more terrible to one another than you can imagine. It's not simply that they are evil, it's that they will not face or acknowledge the true origin of the justifiable anger within them. This causes a vulnerability and confusion that comes out in very ugly ways.
Lord, only a man would say "I'd love to see them go toe to toe." I'd love for Serena to feel what the handmaids are feeling!!! I bet she would change, quickly!
Fast forward to season 2... and they're basically working together... Serena has evolved into a complex character, and it seems more likely that she will eventually disrupt and revolt.
I'm so happy I'm not the only liberal (or left-leaning person) who feels they can say Serena is a victim even when the possibility of "bad" liberals metaphorically jumping us is so high.
I think his comments missed the audience, but in a way I understand somewhat what he means, still poor wording. with an older “wife” there isn’t much of a threat. they share different roles. where a younger serena has the same strength, and highlights the ownership she wants over June’s reproductive rights rather than mixing it with messages of youth.
I read the book and it’s one of the few instances where I prefer the television version to the book. The ending of the book was lazy and offred just accepts her fates and sleeps with the garden boy. Plus the book is short so the story is mostly world building and memories of days old.
I disagree with him on the physical intimidation. The original Serena, Faye Dunaway could kick some ass. This is heresy. I feel like we should put him up onstage with Aunt Lydia and have all the Handmaids tear him apart for this.
@@srebecca3571 I think Faye Dunaway was a good balance. Not so old that she came across as just a crotchety old grandma but not so young that she doesn't come across as world-weary. Because I think Serena Joy is world-weary. And bitter. And unwilling to show empathy to people. I think Dunaway captures it really well in the original.
@@mcwyman7928 Faye Dunaway was brilliant...but the role as written by Atwood would have called for someone crotchety and older. I like both actresses interpretation of Serena, Yvonne had more to go on as there was far more backstory.
I was moved to tears when Serena got all up in June's face. My mother did that to me all the time. It quite frightened me as a child, and it seems like it scared the crap outta June as well...
Everyone in the comments is acting like he's making it out as a sexist thing, the whole 'cage match' thing. But I think the meaning behind that is, them facing off, really facing off, and facing each other as just two women, two sides of the same tarnished coin; once silver and new but now bent and without it's shine. Serena is not a woman of status and June is not a symbol of a government's power. They're just two women. "Maybe we could have been colleagues," from season 2 where June and Serena work together while Fred is in the hospital. One of the big things as the series progresses is that we come to realize how similar these women are. They both are basically owned by the government and by the same man. Only, Serena is Mrs. Waterford, the beautiful obedient wife of Commander Fred Waterford, and June is Offred, his vital property. Both are controlled by their gender and the status of their fertility. Both have learned to manipulate certain men and situations to get what they're after, and both have learned how to survive the world they have to live in. Yes, Serena wrote that world, but she didn't realize the prison she had locked herself in to the keys were kicked away from her reach. They are reflections of each other; twisted reflections, of what the other woman could've been. What if June had been the one who married a man of power, of 'God and His word', and what if Serena had been the fertile one who didn't have a place in society? How different would things be, really? The Handmaid's Tale is such a raw, invigorating story about women and roles and the 'what if' of if those things were things of nightmares.
I know Serena will end up tragically in the finale but if they brave enough to keep this character open ended and do a spin-off movie, that would be so much astonishing and entertaining like Cruella.
I wondered about this for a sec, but then I visualised Rhonda Rousey vs serena fighting for her marriage (and remaining dignity) or vs june fighting for access to her daughter, husband and freedom and thought, yeah, maybe it's a tribute to female physical strength rather than the male gaze. Just a thought. Maybe I'm feeling optimistic today.
The reason why they casted her with this age, skill and beauty is clearly that they know June herself is not enough to carry the show to this depth with a group of supporting actors. They didn’t want to take that risk. Serena character has shown tremendous effect in doing so within the limited range of scenes she got as a supporting actor. I said what i said. 🤷♀️
Incredible that Yvonne Strahovski improvised that dive to the ground to shout in her face. That terrified me when I first saw it, and it did in this video as well. Bravo to that acting.
She was absolutely in the zone.
Definitely improved on the role. As much as I loved the book, I definitely think this casting choice made her character far more dynamic than in the book where she was less of a character and more an aspect of the environment.
Not crazy about her not informing her co-actor, though ... you need to trust her ability to act, too.
That scene took me aback. I was like holy shit that's a scary woman!"
I think if she planned on doing something dangerous/more physical then she definitely would have said something.
Yvonne's acting is one of the best thing of this show. Most of the time Yvonne's acting is more believable than Elisabeth's. Just my opinion. Emmy snubbed Yvonne.
Not this year
Have you observe/lived through up close abuse like this ? You do disappear, push down emotions and sometimes events trigger You back to your fighting spirit which gets horrifyingly crushed. But life cries through and picks through with such rage sometimes.. She does it amazingly because it Is hard to grasp, how playing along is sometimes as much of a weapon of survival and little death, ends of your sense of self.. pushing back brings a risk of showing another part of you to kill and crush. She is hugely strong for everything her character goes through.
Well, Elizabeth Moss is amazing too.
@@shreyasingh117 agree
@@marionmetathink3234 who r u talking about? Elizabeth? If u're talking about Elizabeth's acting i totally agree of all u said, is just i think in some scenes Yvonne did slightly better for me.
I don't mind the change, actually, but that explanation? Ugh. "The only thing I lacked was direct competition between the two women" is such a guy thing to say, such a masculine perspective. I think the book version was not a coincidence since in that world the handmaids were owned and used by the elite, both male and female, they were not their equals, so that's why they couldn't be considered competition in that sense.
I agree it sounds pervy. But I also agree with him to an extent. It's not competive on Junes side, But I can see how someone in Serenas position could be threatend by a woman coming in and giving her husband something she can't and fear that dynamic could threaten her marriage even by a slimey husband.
He missed that point of the book.😕
However, if Mrs Waterford is past menopause there would not be a doubt about why no children are born in that household. The show inserted a twist by discussing who actually causes the childlessness, men or women. This would not have been as possible with an elderly couple getting a handmaid.
@@Fidi987 I think your comment should have the amount of likes as the man comment! One of the few that it didn't go straight over your head.
I understood it less of him wanting competition between them because they're two women, but because stories are driven by conflict. It's what gives energy to scenes and actors something to play with.
This show is so dark and depressing. And I love it.
You should read the book.
But isn't it also about hope in a way? With the women refusing to give up and constantly fighting back?
I LOVE YVONNE STRAHOVSKI
Having a younger Serena Joy makes her look more tragic and helpless, stuck at home all day with her hair in a bun and no sex. All that rage building up inside her. It's also more relevant to America 2017 where girl-next-door types rather than old dames are ambassadors of the alt-right. Just look at France's beautiful blonde Marie-Marechal Le Pen as the face of the French far-right
Lets not degrade ourselfs to judging womens appearance on a video about a series with sexism.
yeah the serena in the movie and in the books seems to portray a woman who's youth and fertility have escaped her. With a younger Serena it seems more tragic. All the things she could be doing but can't now because of her own deeds.
Totally, having her not being able to get pregnant not because of age but Destiny/God is a far better choice, also her being an author rather than a televangelist works better cause it shows she's intelligent, this is not Tammy Baker, this is Tommy Lahren/a young Ann Coulter
BUT what happens when Ann Coulter/Tommi whatsherface get replaced with a younger, subservient...ie perfect woman, in this New Order they have help create and they have to live in a house with this woman? THAT was what was so fascinating about an older Serena Joy. She was old enough to realize "Crap...I am not young and pretty anymore and I helped make this happen!"
Maybe Serena Joy will feel that way in comparison to Eden
It makes sense that Serena and Fred are younger in this version because we see such a young, highly (militantly) conservative regressive influence that’s generating online right now (you know exactly who I’m talking about). Making them old and grey would show that they represent something from the past that the youth (the Handmaid’s, the resistance, June’s friends and young family) would’ve immediately rejected and not fit in with- there would be too clear of a distinction. We see now that the scariest statements and ideologies are coming from these increasingly popular young pundits because their regressive ideas can’t be attributed to their upbringing/ era/ power they’ve generated over time. While making Serena an older televangelist works in a 1980’s mindset of a dystopian future, Serena being a young, attractive fundamentalist author who did press tours and had social media devoted to her cause is more affective in a post-2018 context. Serena is a complex character in that she built part of the cage she’s in. She’s educated and successful and thought she’d maintain some level of intellectual respect and power over Gilead. She quickly learned that all she did was dig her own grave. Her ideas about liberation for women through traditional (and archaic) roles backfired and her struggle with her beliefs/ insecurity is incredible to watch. I wonder a lot about how women on a similar crusade will feel down the line.
This explanation is perfect 👌✨
I agree, and in the decade when this show began, Serena reminded me of all the young girls leaving Europe to join ISIS and get husbands.
In a way it makes sense to have Serena Joy be in that age bracket where even her own biology is screaming at her to have a baby, it gives realism and pressure to the situation.
Agreed, and she'd be happy if only she could have the child (or many, many more) that she wants and has always wanted.
Reason for Serena Joy to be younger - they are selling a tv show. Duh. This guy with the "you feel like I'd love to see them in a cage match." Um no, not really.
misstigermilk yeah this dude kinda creeped me out lol his description felt just a little belittling to the actresses. I wouldn't have even noticed it if the show wasn't so fundamentally about patriarchy so even the little comments feel massively inappropriate
I think having a younger Serena Joy just makes it all the more difficult, she's not past her typical time yet. She is a young woman who has been disadvantaged in fertility. Being older would suggest Serena had a chance, maybe somewhere at some point to become pregnant, but being younger, she never had that chance, and that's why it may become more emotional and explosive in her performance.
I think he touches on the real reason and just didn't elaboriate. The cage match thing was ridiculous but with Serena being younger you DO feel like they might be friends in other circumstances but in this world it's just not going to happen and THAT is sad and give me feels.
A 40 to 45 year old Serena Joy could have been an attractive, more believable in her past and past prime fertility. The producers just want younger women.:-/
Nerdee79 in what other circumstances exactly? She was psycho before the change and she helped passed legislation to ensure her subjugation.
Yvonne is STUNNING as Serena.
yep. Nice acting and still NO emmy.
No! Not that last sentence! No, please don't have said that terrible sentence!
cnj67
the womenz get triggered.
Why? It legitimately was a fair comment - he's literally saying they're both formidable forces, and is considering who would win in a fight.
TF is wrong with that?
Because its creepily voyeuristic and references a kind of female competition specifically designed for male titillation. I think his interpretation of their relationship is way off mark--luckily, though, Elisabeth and Yvonne know what they're doing--in that he is applying almost a catfight-style competition to them, rather than the dynamic power relationship the actors have created.
I think, as well, he should have just been honest. They cast a younger actor because sex sells.
Wow you took that last sentence whyyy too literal, it's in the same mind frame of "they go at it like cats and dogs". Or when people say " I'd hate to see those two go one-on-one". He's talking about how both characters are in this consist battle and he'd like to see who would win. And don't we all want to see who wins at the end of this story?
cnj67 He said it because he knows he's producing a form of violent pornography.
I don't feel sorry for Serena Joy. Everything that's wrong in her life, she made it that way, but she took everyone else down with her too.
Although I also don't feel sorry for her, what do you mean she is at fault for everything wrong in her life? One of the biggest miseries of her life is that she's infertile, how is she to blame?
That's the same misery that millions of other women in her world also suffer from. She's not alone or special in that agony. But Serena's answer to this problem was kidnap women who CAN have babies, kill their husbands, steal their children away from them, brainwash them, torture them, enslave them, rape them, force them to bare children that she will then take away from them by force. She's a goddamn monster. SHOULD she really be a mother? Does she DESERVE a child?
I had a little sympathy for her right until episode 10, the sympathy is no longer there at all. She is deranged in her own disadvantaged world she created.
I recall the flashback when their previous handmaid killed herself and she asks Fred, "what did you THINK would happen?" Looking at the disconnection and the lack of intimacy and basic consideration in her marriage and her husband's sexual pursuit of the handmaids, one would ask, when she decided non-procreative sex between married spouses should be illegal and you should bring other women into the home to replace you in bed, what did she THINK would happen? Seems stupid to cry about it now.
I feel sorry for Serena. Deep down she is a hurting person and there still is good in her
Ugh. I love Serena joy's character so much. She had previously been very intelligent and a leader but even she was affected by Gilead and everything she worked hard to achieve was stripped from her
Victoria Yost Have you read the book though? She pretty much drafted her own downfall. She just didn't imagine what she sold would actually turn against her one day. The bitter conclusion to a Phyllis Schlafly-like character, if you will.
She fought so hard to achieve Gilead. That was her mission. I just don’t think she envisioned how little she’d be involved. I think that’s why she rules the house in the manner she does. She’s used to being strong, powerful, and having people follow her; now she has to play the housewife and treating June the way is the only way she gets to feel a glimpse of her former self. I don’t think she’s happy one bit, I think she’s just on the better side of a bad situation so she’s playing the cards she’s dealt. Remember, the alternative would be the colonies or becoming a Handmaid herself.
Of course she does. She's the reason there are handmaids in the first place. This was her vision... Well... It was her vision that brought all of this about I should say, which I think is one of the HUGE ironies in the book/show. A WOMAN inflicted this fate upon women!!!
Victoria Yost That’s the whole point: she fought for this to happen. She *WANTED* this to happen. It looked great on paper. What she didn’t factor in, though, is how it would actually make her feel. I think one of the most chilling things in regards to her story is when they brought up that she can’t even read her own book she wrote. Regardless, I don’t feel bad for her in the slightest. She brought this upon herself. “I didn’t think they would eat MY face” said the woman who voted for the giraffes-eating-peoples’-faces party...
She helped write the law , did it to herself
I hated his last comment
raquelideh
it could also mean a metaphor. but sure. believe what you want to believe.
Ugh, me too. It’s ironic. He’s working on a show that deals with the horrors of extreme sexism, yet he manages to come across as incredibly sexist. It’s creepy.
Some men love to see women fight. Repulsive.
Wow you took that last sentence whyyy too literal, it's in the same mind frame of "they go at it like cats and dogs". Or when people say " I'd hate to see those two go one-on-one one". He's talking about how both characters are in this consist battle and he'd like to see who would win. And don't we all want to see who wins at the end of this story?
raquelideh agreed.
They casted a younger actress because it's a heckin TV series, it's just what they do. In the novel, the Commander is an old man with grey hair and not in the slightest way attractive yet they cast a younger, hot guy for the show. Because the opposite wouldn't make sense and would be weird to watch on TV. And I also feel like there was no need whatsoever to have "competition" between Offred and Serena Joy because in my understanding, the characters' relationship in the novel wasn't at all based on that. But I understand the need for romanticizing and dramatizing things a lot more in TV. I love this series regardless and think it's a great adaptation.
Rita Carvalho The commander needed to be sexy for people understand that hot,handsome e cult men RAPE
Nicolas Costas I don't think so...
But these are the differences from the book that makes it look less like a lesser form of the book and more like its own thing with its own fans and own discussion
I don't know if it would be weird. The rape scenes would be uncomfortable either way.
Part of me agrees with you and part of me doesn't. There is more competition between Serena and Offred because you feel more emotion from Serena. She wants a baby but really hates offred because she can offer Fred what she can't. With an older Serena there's not much competition because she's old so her not being able to have children could be due to her age so there isn't much hatred coming from her.
I had to study the handmaids tale novel for school. The reimagining and new creation that the show has done is absolutely stunning. It gives a new life to Margret Atwood’s novel.
The age is a side issue. What I want to know is why they took away the great ironic heart of the character, namely that before the war, Serena Joy was a famous televangelist. This situation wasn't something that was cooked up for the war - Serena had spent YEARS advocating exactly this kind of thing. There's a line in the book that sums it all up perfectly, when Ofglenn is thinking about how Serena is just as imprisoned as herself, "How furious she must have been to have been taken at her word." Now that most basic bitterness - having all her fame and power stripped away by getting what she demanded, and then finding out it's hell - is gone, and that's too bad, because it was one of the best things about the book, in my opinion. (I really don't get some of the changes made, some of them make little sense, and some seem to be made solely to keep from upsetting somebody.)
They touched on that when they had Serena say in a conversation with her husband 'I helped you write it' when talking about the constitution of Giliad. But yes, I agree, that Serena played a much bigger part in the creation of her downfall than is being shown.
Didn't you watch episode 6? Or did you watch the show at all?
This Serena was an author and wrote "a woman's place" advocating for "domestic feminism" She even helped write the laws of Gilead! We saw that in both ep 6 and 10. That is a lot more ironic, than the book Serena, that was _only_ a televangelist.
I think Serena thought that she was going to be an exception, that she would be one of the few worthy women allowed a place of power, and I think she never imagined that her husband would come to disregard and disrespect her. She seemed to think they would maintain a level of emotional and intellectual equality within their proscribed genderized roles and Fred would confer and strategize with her and didn't see it coming. It didn't seem to dawn on her that he would internalize his compatriots ideas about women's places and apply it literally and directly to his own marriage. It should have, but it somehow it didn't. Nor did she realize Fred's capacity for moral hypocrisy. It isn't that far fetched, though, for people to get exactly what they thought they wanted and then find out they hate it. That doesn't ring false at all.
+Kowalski K Didn't you read the BOOK? No, it's not more ironic. An author is not in front of her readers, right there on the screen, talking to them. She was FAMOUS, as in "people know your face" famous. As in "people think you love them because you talk to them through the TV" famous. In this day and age, NO author can compete with a media personality when it comes to fame, recognition, and power. SHE HAD ALL THREE.
Really, I understand you like the series, but don't be ridiculous.
+moonlilly1 I didnt' say it rang false. I said her character's irony was greatly diminshed because she lost EVERYTHING SHE HAD. She lost all the power (among fundamentalists, the televangelists have a considerable amount of power), she lost the recognition (of which she had A LOT, because televangelist), she lost the prestige (ditto). It was not a matter of "my husband thinks I'm not all that anymore". It was a PUBLIC humiliation, a stripping of her PUBLIC power, the loss of any influence that was WELL KNOWN. There's a huge difference between your husband deciding you don't get to do things and the ENTIRE SOCIETY deciding that.
I love all these comments pointing out Miller's sexism and ageism.
Charlotte
sjw just like to point out something that isn't there.
But it is true!!!
Look, I could give you a million reasons why it's better from a storytelling and visual perspective to have younger characters, and why I understand his use of the term "competition", but you would just put your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala".
That are themselves amazingly sexist and ageist. hypocrisy has made irony obsolete.
"Toe to toe in a cage match"??? Really?? Only a man would say that.
John Palermo it's not the violence, it's the male fantasy of women physically interacting; if it's not direct sex it's fighting (where clothes and hair get torn).
When he paused after saying "I'd love to see them..." I thought he was going to say something completely different
Of course I mean interacting in a sexual way, otherwise I wouldn't have used the word fantasise. I was choosing to be polite, but now, you've decided to nitpick and put words into my mouth. Of course I don't mean to include gay men. But you've decided to pounce on every little way you can turn my statement on its head, haven't you? Like ALL HETEROSEXUAL NEOLIBERAL MEN do. Just like I predicted you would. You won't enjoy me calling you out on this, I assume. Which is why I enjoy doing it oh so very much.
Elyssa Truman... so did i. i was thinking "please dont say jelly wrestling, please lord, dont say pillow fight"
I agree with you. I love the show, but I almost feel as if it has succeeded despite this man's vision. I feel he completely missed the point of the tension between the older Serena Joy, who is past her prime, and the young Offred, who is still there to replace her and is a constant reminder to Serena of her inadequacies (i.e. infertile, arthritic, etc). Why else did Atwood make these choices for that character?
I am disappointed by this man's frankly typical male gaze.
I love Yvonne. I love how much better she makes this show and i like her 19176198 better than the Serena from the book. She brought Serena to life
id like to know why a man saying "i'd like to see [two women] go toe-to-toe in a cage match" and "the thing that i am lacking is competition between two women" is directing a show about FEMALE EMPOWERMENT.
First of all, he's not the director, he's the showrunner, so if you liked season one, you should thank him. Secondly, it's possible to have more than one thought in your head you know. It may be about female empowerment for you, but you don't have the right to dictate what the show means to me or anyone else for that matter. And regardless, it is still a drama show, and it's fiction, and without drama and fiction, no one will watch.
ainsley exe yeah that was disturbing.
Rampant systemic sexism in the film industry and also society at large
ainsley exe I was thinking the same thing.
Really gross.
Glad “K” was here to mansplain things 🙄
i thought this too. didn’t make a whole lot of sense to me
Hearing a dude explain it, feels almost like he didn't get it.
Seems like he understood it perfectly, to me.
S Rebecca He thinks feeling sorry for Serena Joy is a seemingly impossible task. Serena Joy isn't the villan of the story. She's another victim who happened to have a hand in creating her current situation. Just because she has an elevated role for a woman in this society, doesn't change the fact that she has little control over her own life. She responds to her new role in life by acting out in the only way she can; by being cruel to those with less status than her.
Oh I think shes a villain She helped CREATE the nightmare. She is not at all a victim of it as a result. She is getting the consequences of her acts. Oh, dont forget in the movie she was in on all the terrorist attack plans...pretty evil to me.
Serena is interesting because she's as much a victim as a villain. She helped create it, but she obviously didn't think it through. Her main goal was to get women to "embrace their biological destiny" and stop putting their careers first. What she is caught up in now is something she didn't expect to be so terrible. We see her try to make it better when the commander is in the hospital, we ser her genuine concern for the babies. We also see her get violent, selfish and out of control. She is so "gray", it's very interesting.
S Rebecca Villain is too simple of a term for her. Her character is complex. That's why I loveeee the series. Serena has done TERRIBLE, UNSPEAKABLE things. That is a fact. But she isn't maniacal. She initially believed in the cause. And sometimes in life, bad things happen on the path to bring forth crucial change or good (i.e. war). Countries interfere with others countries in the name of "helping" or "preventing harm" all the time. And interfering countries will always be seen as enemies to some and hero's to others. So in her mind, she 'did what she had to do.'
While still believing (at least moderately) in the cause, she eventually starts to act "villainy" in Gilead- still not out of twisted enjoyable malice- but in a way that fiercely protects her, belief, pride, guilt, shame and pysche. In short, she's in survival mode. This is not at all to say she is in the right. Right and wrong isn't really what I'm addressing in this comment. Rather her motives or reasoning.
I love Serena because she isn't just good or bad, as with so many tv or movie characters. She's just like 'real life' humans. There is good and bad in everyone. Sometimes we go in and out of phases where we veer closer to one side of the spectrum or the other. So it's near impossible to sum anyone up as purely good or bad. I can loathe, pity and root for Serena all at the same time (ever have a loved one or friend who did not so great things, yet you still felt connected to and invested in them because you knew them beyond the bad things they did?)
She's just a very conflicted and broken woman, who operates in her present world not with a drive to hurt, rather a drive for self-preservation & to preserve what she still believes in, a drive to find meaning and happiness, as well as a drive to protect herself and the justifications for the world she helped create (Gilead). Hurting others is a byproduct of her motives and existence. Again, not saying it's excusable. We have to face the consequences for our actions, regardless of intentions. But she isn't simply a villain. Nearly all of the characters in the series are far from simple or one dimensional. Even Fred has some dimension 😅
I love this show sooo much. Great production, acting, story. So strong and eye opening to me.
May the Lord open...
for those of you who read the book, specifically the epilogue... isn’t it quite ironic how a man changed certain chatacters from
the novel so his perception of situations would be “better” in his eyes? think it all ties in rlly interestingly with the overall themes of atwoods book..
@Hans Kopf no its not
Serena Joy is my favourite character. Not because she's a good person, lol. But she's sooo complicated.
Yvonne deserves all the Awards! In this season 2 she went beyond! A M A Z I N G...and Serena is such a great great character, that will surprise us all even more, I'm sure.
I came to this series pretty late. I'm only on episode 3 but I'm loving it. Something fundamental that I don't get is what role these supreme leaders think stress might play in effecting conception? Isn't it known now that of your undergoing life threatening stress and you simultaneously have fertility issues the two are probably related? Why then would they design a system where they inflict massive amounts of psychological and physical stress on bodies they are hoping will bear children in a future dystopia where no one can get pregnant? Seems immensely counterproductive.
Marieda Parellio so let's not make any good TV in case the characters get stressed? 😉
It's because they don't care about the women's feelings. They don't understand that women under stress are less likely to be able to reproduce. They don't care about how stressed the women are, because they don't think women's feelings are valid. All the women in this society are dehumanized by everyone around them, thus the "womb on legs" comparison.
If they cared about the women it would be a different society. And lots of babies are born from mothers under extreme stress.
In America, a huge part of the population are descendants of raped slaves. The history of the US bears witness that it is possible to use and rape a woman and not care for her, and to choose to care for, or to just use the child. The Handmaiden is a story put together from things that have happened or happens, and some of these things right at your doorstep.
They justify their view/treatment of women from old testament scripture. God put them there to reproduce so whether they are stressed or not, it is their duty. Also on that notion, many children are conceived at times of stress and conflict. Stress affects fertility and conception but only by a little. If you are truly fertile not much will stop you from conceiving. You could have a fertile woman kidnapped, shackled, raped daily, and kept in tarp tents and she could and would still conceive children.
Also keep in mind they are convinced it is the woman’s fault if they don’t get pregnant. Stress or no stress
Cage match -- really! Stupid shallow comment. All men do NOT think this way. One stereotype is as bad as another.
I sort of get what he means about the age thing - an older Serena cannot bear children, so the competition is more direct if the character is younger. But he's so wrong about us not being able to empathise with her unless she's a young woman - even Offred feels sorry for her in the book! Whatever her age is, and however awful she is to Offred, she too is trapped in a horrifying situation with no escape. Also, cutting the televangelist background is really missing a trick there, it makes her circumstances even more ironically tragic.
I wanted to like you, Miller, but then you opened your mouth and ruined it.
@Hans Kopf Yeah it's probably that.
I actually liked this change from the book. At first seeing a younger Mr. and Mrs. Waterford looked weird to me. But their acting is amazing and once I got into it, I totally agree with this adaptation.
Not getting the hate over his last comment. Having both characters younger makes the conflict more physical, perhaps more visceral. Just a different dynamic. If it's so controversial what he said, why is women's combat sport a thing? Certainly there are male fans of that as well
Don't ever feel sorry for Serena Joy. Ever.
How about now? 😅
@@patmagd No, not even now. She's the Irma Griese of A Handmaids' Tlae.
Omg so much emotion from watching this serie, you really feel shivers watching Serena! I just feel so bad for Offred
I loved this series because of Serena joys performance ✨
Everyone is taking his cage match comment WAY out of context - YOU'RE all sexualizing it, he clearly wasn't.
He was just expressing in a lamen's way of saying both of the women are incredibly strong in their own right, their characters are forces to be reckoned with, and he's saying in a simplistic way that "whoa, they're so tough I wonder who would win in a fight?"
It's just an offhanded simple comment, some of you are turning into this whole other thing it doesn't need to be.
He didn't make the comment in a vacuum. He's perfectly aware of the connotations of female cage matches, and of the sexualized nature of performative fighting by women for men. And if you watch the show or read the book and think "who would win in a fight," you've missed the point of it entirely. "Cage-match competition" is so not the relationship between Offred and Serena, and instead reflects a stereotypical catfight image that resonates with the exact ideology of Gilead. It's a good thing Yvonne and Elisabeth did their research and are both amazing actors, because the male-led production team is lost.
Callie S I think you are confusing boxing caged matches with mainstream wrestling. One being a sport and one..well not
@@callies8907 Have you ever watched an MMA match between women? there is nothing sexual.
The show did not change the character, even in the books Serena Joy is meant to show the readers that all women are victims not just the handmaids, and that it is not simply about fertility its about the patriarchy, and men wanting power and wanting to dominate women, the book is meant to show the dangers of extremism; not one women is portrayed as evil in the book not even aunt Lydia, in the book Offred reflects on that infact and says she was probably indoctrinated just like she herself was. Yes maybe Serena Joy had grey hair in the book but she is still a victim just as much as Offred is...
Maria Ciappara nope serena will never be a victim ..... any woman who is ok with another woman’s repeated rape , a woman who encourages her husband to rape another pregnant woman to induce the pregnancy , a woman who helped made the law of handmaids is a truly despicable animal . Women like serena are the true monstrous villains for other women ....
Director: "I'd like to see them toe to toe in a cage match." Man this is the very statement that defines the patriarchy which is the central the of the story
There didn't need to be a direct competition between the two characters. Serena Joy was the oppressor, the antagonist. In making Serena Joy younger for this reason the writers ignore a fundamental criticism of the novel, they strip the motivations and self worth of women to be solely directed by their need/ability to bear children.
I like that they changed it, I think it adds more colour to the story and makes it more realistic. We still get to see that situation you're talking about with Ofwarren and her Mrs. and another side to it with the first Ofglen after she became Ofsteven(Emily) and her Mrs. who is old but nice to her, even willing to fake an illness to get her out of Ceremony night.
Call me Your Dai5y Yea but nobody is just pure evil. There is a deeper element to seeing Serena Joy be vulnerable. To not establish that in the book is ok, but in a show or movie, we see more defined characteristics of each person. It is a very successful fleshing out of the character that we see how she took part in building her own guilded cage. She is a repressor but she is still repressed as well. It makes for a more complex and deeply troubled character.
As I recall,there are hints here and there in the book of Serena's vulnerabilities--in her first conversation with Offred, for instance, she says something to the effect that "My husband is just that, MY husband, off limits for you". Also, there's a later moment of Offred, reflecting about Serena's role in designing Gilead, says "She's become voiceless, how furious she must be to be taken at her word."
Cheryl Mason u
The latter quote was excellent. Serena dug her own grave.
This is cool and the acting turned out amazing but I definitely don’t agree that Serena needed to be younger so there could be “competition”. I think that decision was about what they thought was good TV and men liking this idea of women competing- hence the whole cagematch comment. No woman would ever make that comment. I also think that having an older Serena is also extremely powerful because she has a whole history that is so interesting and complex. It adds a lot to the plot, her as a person and her dynamic with Offred. And it adds to the intensity and complexity of the book. Not having Serena be older makes it easy to not have to deal with that nuanced, difficult discussion
I don't think the similar age worked for many reasons...and I am almost certain that the main reason the TV show changed the age was that they wanted attractive actors. An important part of the relationship dynamic in the book is the age difference.
Honestly this is one of the best creative choices they've made. The show wouldn't be as good without Yvonne as Serena.
I love how they changed it, the thinking and time spent behind this show is amazing.
I feel like a lot of people misinterpreted the character of Serena Joy. They just see her as this evil b****, instead of a woman with a complex psychology. All the other characters in the show are either good or evil, Serena is the only one that has some depth, the only was that isn't one-dimensional. People should really show more understanding for her character, because she embodies the women-hating woman, and we have a lot of those in this world and I think it's important to try to understand them and help them because in the end, how miserable do you have to be in order to hate your own sex?
no, its because TV does not hire older women!
not true..the aunts are older
Yup, its ageism. "We wanted a physically intimidating actress" It's such a bullshit justification, cause you know an older woman could not be physically intimidating- Jessica Lange or Laurie Metcalf could not have pulled off the creepy sensitivity- give me break.
True
Ann Dowd is only 21....wait no
Because they're aunts...
It's not Offred's fault that she is not pregnant nor is it's Serena Joys Character's fault either. It's probably Fred, Offfred's commander who is probably infertile. It's probably his fault that Offred is not pregnant.
Caroline Lynch It is his fault. Offered needs Nick's help.
Yes, but as is explained, it can't be the men who are at fault - it MUST be the women.
I wondered (with the premise of her being younger) if in fact Serena could get pregnant. I guess she would have been tested but wouldn't be we weird if Serena slept with someone else and got pregnant.
This is suggested in the book. But as noted below, the patriarchy can't take responsibility, so they lay the blame on the women.
However, the generational shift also works - as you had the book's Serena Joy based on Phyllis Schafly, who fought against the ERA... and Suzanne Venker - Phyllis's niece, and where aunt and niece cowrote The Flipside of Feminism - real-world A Woman's Place.
Yvonne is playign an expy of Venker.
Yvonne scared the shit outta me, she's amazing lol
very impressive!
Amazing actresses. Such a great show. Always giving me goosebumps
Im very surprised by the lack of common sense from some of the people in the comment section. The guy in the video made a comment about going toe to toe which is a common phase, hes saying he'd like to see who's gonna win. And his comment about the confrontations between the two actresses makes sense, it is very hard bc they both have to keep in all of their emotions and pretend they are cold when inside you know june wants to scream and run and say how she feels and vice versa for Serena.
He made it much worse with the "cage match" part. If it wasn't for that you would have been more right.
I think the real reason it was important for the change for the Serena character to be younger was to show an issue we are having in todays society.Many of today's women are having a harder time having babies and finding alternate, sometimes drastic options in order to accomplish your human right to become a mother.This heartbreak and real experience is relevant to audience.
this is brilliant, I'm impressed
Loved it. This show is so rich. And those two female caracthers in particular are so well developed and represented. I think the most important part about that constantly iminent fight, is that evil is not self-proclaimed.
I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't like her and never has. The actress is amazing though i agree.
Marina no i also hate serena
Yvonne's skills are truly unmatchable!
Yeah it is really creepy that sometimes you see they may be friends in a normal world. I felt it during watching the show, but now I understand my emotional state about those two.
i dont see the problem with the cage match statement. its not like he was talking about it in a sexualized context. its pretty clear he was talking about serena's physical strength over june. the fact that he compares her to a linebacker is clear his mind isnt on a sexy mud fight. he's talking about yvonne's height and how she gets in June's face and about how physically intimidating serena is because shes younger than her book counter part. she wouldnt break a hip trying to fight june and because she's stronger than june she poses a physical threat to her if June ever tries something. Serena could very well kick june's ass.
Yes... If Yvonne was shorter than Elizabeth it would be really really weird lol
lol. imagine that happen...
Of course a man would think that intimidating means being physically imposing.
Leave it up to a woman to entirely miss the point.
Anthony Cheeseborough Please enlighten me as to what point that would be.
He was talking about her being physically intimidating ie staring her down up close, forcing her to look up to her. He never said intimidating means being physically imposing. It is a type of intimidation. I could go deeper but if you don't get it by now there's no point.
Anthony Cheeseborough "[Yvonne] is quite tall, and that works really well with [Elisabeth] who is more small" - he says this right before talking about her being intimidating.
Also, it seems you've missed _my_ point. Intimidation doesn't have to physical. In the book, Serena Joy is a middle aged woman but she's still intimidating because she has power over Offred.
that might be one of my favorite scenes on season 1
Yvonne is such an amazing actor, she makes you both love and hate her at the same time. You feel conflicted. You've done Australia proud Yvonne !
I will never connect with the television series in the same way that I did with the novel, I just don’t feel as though they accurately captured the character of Serena Joy in the way the Atwood created her and intended her it be
Both women are so beautiful. I love this version of the Handmaid's tale.
I wish there were a Handmaid's Tale club I could attend biweekly. I've seen it 3 times, and am bordering on obsessed with the show.... will def need to read the book someday!
I liked the choice to make Serena Joy younger, but not for the reasons he describes. His comments made me cringe a bit due to him not realizing how misogynistic and ableist it sounded because of his wording. I like the idea of making Serena Joy younger and almost the same age as Offred because it shows the extreme dichotomy between the two and the differences between their lives, before and after Gilead. It makes it interesting because the only thing keeping Serena from being a handmaid herself is if she wasn’t married, infertile, and one of the people trying to create Gilead. Their positions could have easily been switched if those factors were not in place, and it is a great way of symbolizing how rich, conservative anti-choice women are complicit in the policing and commodification of other women’s bodies who are of a different social or class status than them.
Prince Seokjin ableist how????
All these comments about this guy just shows how toxic the state of modern feminism is. A man says something about the two characters fighting each other for control and you take it out of context and crucify the dude. Why can’t we (men) watch this, appreciate the characters, recognize the struggle, and enjoy the show without being vilified simply for our gender?
Sorry, but I can't empathize with her. She's responsible not only for the sexual and labor exploitation and oppression of June but of everyone else's. This tactic of building this forced empathy between June and Serena (empathy not very reciprocal, by the way) almost made lose all sympathy for June because it's so naive of her to expect that the woman who exploits and assaults her will feel sorry and empathy for her. That scene from S02 where June slips away and gives up on killing both Fred and Serena made much more angry than empathetic.
I love the character of Serena Joy so much. Yvonne did an excellent job
Most of the comments here are about that last sentence and I feel like everyone is not interpreting it right. First of all, he is the showrunner, did amazing so far and works with mostly women to make this happening. Saying he doesn't get what the show is about, doesn't line up.
Before his last sentence, he talks about how Yvonne and Elisabeth are both strong. I think it's clear he's not talking about physical strength. The relation between June and Serena is shifting constantly and there is always some kind of tension. Both are held back, though. Serena can't really hurt June or send her away. June can't speak too much, or she will face consequences.
I think he meant to say that it would make an interesting scene if the restrictions for both are gone and they could really say and do what they want, especially due to the actresses talent. It's a metaphor, not a comment to bring women down.
Sooooo... this is before she got on the Normandy?
yes. Before being a Cerberus Cheerleader.
I genuinely hated June and wanted to see her on the wall
Serena Joy is my favorite character on the show because I feel she accurately depicts so many women in today's world. Women who are oppressed have so much anger inside of them and they are not allowed to express it, so unfortunately they express it through the only outlet they feel they can- towards other women or towards children. People who they can lash out at without as much consequence; and in season 1 we've seen Serena is a threat to women AND to children. This is why if you'll notice, so many overly religious women are so catty with one another and often judge each other more harshly than they do the men. It's clearest in islam, the muslim women of certain countries are often more terrible to one another than you can imagine. It's not simply that they are evil, it's that they will not face or acknowledge the true origin of the justifiable anger within them. This causes a vulnerability and confusion that comes out in very ugly ways.
Lord, only a man would say "I'd love to see them go toe to toe." I'd love for Serena to feel what the handmaids are feeling!!! I bet she would change, quickly!
Fast forward to season 2... and they're basically working together... Serena has evolved into a complex character, and it seems more likely that she will eventually disrupt and revolt.
I'm so happy I'm not the only liberal (or left-leaning person) who feels they can say Serena is a victim even when the possibility of "bad" liberals metaphorically jumping us is so high.
I think his comments missed the audience, but in a way I understand somewhat what he means, still poor wording. with an older “wife” there isn’t much of a threat. they share different roles. where a younger serena has the same strength, and highlights the ownership she wants over June’s reproductive rights rather than mixing it with messages of youth.
I love Lena Headey as Cersei Lannister but seeing Yvonne in this role is how I have always pictured Cersei when I’m reading the series.
I read the book and it’s one of the few instances where I prefer the television version to the book. The ending of the book was lazy and offred just accepts her fates and sleeps with the garden boy. Plus the book is short so the story is mostly world building and memories of days old.
Serena joy for sure has layers to her and even though she has done many bad things you do feel for her
It's good to see great actresses
it was a very powerful scene. i was surprized she would act like that
I disagree with him on the physical intimidation. The original Serena, Faye Dunaway could kick some ass. This is heresy. I feel like we should put him up onstage with Aunt Lydia and have all the Handmaids tear him apart for this.
Even Faye Dunaway was too young and pretty for the role as written by Atwood.
S Rebecca but she was still amazing. Her smoky, intimidating demeanor perfected it
@@srebecca3571 I think Faye Dunaway was a good balance. Not so old that she came across as just a crotchety old grandma but not so young that she doesn't come across as world-weary. Because I think Serena Joy is world-weary. And bitter. And unwilling to show empathy to people. I think Dunaway captures it really well in the original.
@@mcwyman7928 Faye Dunaway was brilliant...but the role as written by Atwood would have called for someone crotchety and older. I like both actresses interpretation of Serena, Yvonne had more to go on as there was far more backstory.
Something Weinsteiny about the guy????
Excluded Artists no. he's amazing.
absolutely
What.? How...
Got a Hand Maids Tale ad before the video 😂
I was moved to tears when Serena got all up in June's face. My mother did that to me all the time. It quite frightened me as a child, and it seems like it scared the crap outta June as well...
I'm sorry that happened to you... and I know how it feels. I hope that you're out of the way of any harm. xoxo
Everyone in the comments is acting like he's making it out as a sexist thing, the whole 'cage match' thing. But I think the meaning behind that is, them facing off, really facing off, and facing each other as just two women, two sides of the same tarnished coin; once silver and new but now bent and without it's shine. Serena is not a woman of status and June is not a symbol of a government's power. They're just two women. "Maybe we could have been colleagues," from season 2 where June and Serena work together while Fred is in the hospital. One of the big things as the series progresses is that we come to realize how similar these women are. They both are basically owned by the government and by the same man. Only, Serena is Mrs. Waterford, the beautiful obedient wife of Commander Fred Waterford, and June is Offred, his vital property. Both are controlled by their gender and the status of their fertility. Both have learned to manipulate certain men and situations to get what they're after, and both have learned how to survive the world they have to live in. Yes, Serena wrote that world, but she didn't realize the prison she had locked herself in to the keys were kicked away from her reach. They are reflections of each other; twisted reflections, of what the other woman could've been. What if June had been the one who married a man of power, of 'God and His word', and what if Serena had been the fertile one who didn't have a place in society? How different would things be, really? The Handmaid's Tale is such a raw, invigorating story about women and roles and the 'what if' of if those things were things of nightmares.
I know Serena will end up tragically in the finale but if they brave enough to keep this character open ended and do a spin-off movie, that would be so much astonishing and entertaining like Cruella.
A cage match?!? Sexiest much?!?!!!!!!
Sexist
Sexist
Taryn Mallard-Reid agreed. It exemplifies the male gaze.
Stop putting me in a box you sexist shithead.
I wondered about this for a sec, but then I visualised Rhonda Rousey vs serena fighting for her marriage (and remaining dignity) or vs june fighting for access to her daughter, husband and freedom and thought, yeah, maybe it's a tribute to female physical strength rather than the male gaze.
Just a thought. Maybe I'm feeling optimistic today.
SERENA JOY IS MY FAVORITE CARACHTER OF THE MOVIE BY FAR
Not a good reason.
The reason why they casted her with this age, skill and beauty is clearly that they know June herself is not enough to carry the show to this depth with a group of supporting actors. They didn’t want to take that risk. Serena character has shown tremendous effect in doing so within the limited range of scenes she got as a supporting actor.
I said what i said. 🤷♀️
This guy is creepy. It’s like he wants Yvonne and Elizabeth to mud wrestle. Some weird twisted fantasy.
Those were your words, not his. Stop projecting yourself onto him...or don't, I guess
He said "cage match". Look up MMA on youtube.
Goodbye.
that scene with serena made me hate her the most in this show
but the acting is fenomenal
Whats the background music?
MischievousMischief I came to the comments looking for the answer to this question..
well shit XD I didn't find it through shazam either…
Where theeeee hell is her Emmy at
Sarah Walker!
Thank god there is no bloody clickbait.....
Give me Faye Dunaway any day!
Serena is perfect. and so pretty and mean too. lol