what did it look like when the breakdown happened, did it explode like a bomb and did you manage to stop without injury, once upon a time I saw when a carbon rim broke because it hit a deep hole in the road, they collected teeth from riders on the road
@@makantahi3731this wheel’s rim has a fairing on the rim. The spokes connect to an alloy rim like a more standard wheel. The spokes were fully in tact. I heard bang noise about 9 miles into a 10 mile race. I thought that sounds strange there was no vibration or buckle in the wheel. As hambini has stated I didn’t realise anything mechanical had happened till I got back to my car!
@@jiyon167 Im pretty surprised the wheel didn't completely go out of true, I mean you didn't even notice this happened. Wtf. Is that something to praise? I still think the hubs are trash, but I can't get over that fact. Can someone explain this?
Update: Since this video dropped and the threat of legal action ensued, Aerocoach has finally responded to the customer after a whopping 6 months of ghosting. It shouldn't take a video like this to force a manufacturer to own up to their screw-ups.
I don't understand this kind of customer service. You deal with it swiftly and appropriately and it will never devolve into this mud slinging situation where everyone's really unhappy. I think the very likely explanation is that Aerocoach drank their own koolaid and think they are now significantly above all paying customers. Heck, it's only ONE unit you have to handle.
I don't even know what Hub that looks like that even a cheap Chinese ones have better material and design in that even at Walmart is better design than that
All the people on here trying to find micro fault with the reaming …..ignoring that Aerocoach ignored the customer for 6 months. That alone condemns them for me
Who cares if it was 6 months or 6 days? The real issue here is that these clowns are obviously marketing some cheap dime store fabbed hubs as if they are some amazing piece of Porsche F1 Development team engineered product and it is somehow giving you some imaginary huge performance benefit when it most certainly is not. This looks like yet another pure snake oil cycling product being sold for a nosebleed price for no logical reason other than the pure gullibility of fools that are easily marketed to.
I agree, Of all my defective parts, i consider the ones that ghosted me the worst...like my novatec hub that lasted two rides before cracking in 8 places....another death trap.
As a MTBer I am not into any thing with Aero in it, so I had a good laugh when I googled these things and second thing than comes up in the search is pictures of this hub broken bits clear as day... nice work Hambini highlighting these issues may save someone a trip to the A&E
Great vid, mate. Very informative. I've worked on bikes and motorcycles as good as all my life, 73 years old now, and I'm still learning something new.
For those who usually say "Oh yeah you can see the machining marks, it is not a big deal", but those marks (surface roughness) actually contributs to the fatigue of a part!
Just to add, the product doesn't need to be UK manufactured or branded by a UK company to make a claim. If a product is bought into the UK by a distributor or even a specialist company/individual under the Act they ultimately have the responsibility to ensure the product complies with the CCA. If you have no joy in resolving an issue with say, your local bike shop, you can go directly to the UK agent for resolution.
@phil -d An arguable point ….. but point of sale as I understand it is key , they are the legally responsible party with statutory duties as set out in the Consumer Protection Act 2015 ……..anyone who sells in the ‘course of a business’ (as opposed to a private individual), so arguable you can pull the wholesaler in as well, IMO a potential but secondary inclusion…… but always an option, especially if the LBS has had the misfortune to have closed the doors, as you say. . Distinguish any manufacturer’s ‘Guarantee’ which is an entirely separate matter based not on statute but contract law. Personal view only …………….for obvious reasons .
There’s nothing quite like a manufacturer trying to send you to an early grave both financially and physically with their cheap for them manufacturing.
This used to happen in the 90s when CNC machining of bicycle parts was first a thing. Then they figured out for hubs they had to at least start with a forged cylinder, not an oblong shape. The flange isn't pulled on evenly which messes up the bearing surface as well.
I'll never forget visiting Campagnolo in Vicenza where the PR wizard reached into a bin, pulled out forged blank for a hub and gave it to me as a gift. Wish I still had it. Ya really gotta wonder WTF the lesson that hubs should be forged hasn't been learned? Morons/suckers are born every day, as they say!
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 even Campy used to warn "NO!" regarding radial lacing front wheels. (Sadly, saw that warning AFTER destroying a Record hub by radially lacing it.)
@@joebolan4082 But much later they sold plenty of radial laced front wheels that worked just fine. I have a few though now of course disc brakes make the idea a no-go like it always was for rear wheels.
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 yes, and I have one (16-spoke Zonda). Engineered for radial lacing with more material in the direction of the radial pull, perhaps also different in the material as well. In any case, the hub must be engineered for radial lacing.
Unfortunately I had this exact same thing happen to my 3 year old Chris King front disc brake hub. I laced it 3X. I contacted Chris King about it. They asked for the serial number, I gave it to them, and they said it was out of warranty. I plan on buying some replacements as soon as I can afford to. Thanks.
Does ANYONE who knows metallurgy/design ever get consulted BEFORE crap like this is made...and SOLD? Back in my bike retail daze CNC'd aluminum junk anodized in pretty colors was the rage - cranks, hubs, stems, seatposts, etc. A lot of it failed which always brought me to ask the customer whose mellow was harshed "WTF happened to the perfectly good, FORGED alloy component you yanked off to replace it with this POS? Why don't you put it back on?" But too many times they wanted another one under warranty!!! I just scratched my head and let them know they'd been warned. I tried to get the shop owner to stop selling the junk. to no avail. "Fools and their money" as they say! Some things never change - marketing is king!
If the end caps are locked to the axle, the bearings get no preload when clamped up… or do you do up the axle and then tighten the grub screwed? Not practical for wheel changes.
Someone correct me if they know better, but my understanding is that the caps first get tightened, previously pushing them against the bearings with minimal force. Once that is tight, you tighten the skewer and that adds the remaining preload. I don't think it's pretty but it's been working out well for me (using some basic novatec hubs, which one of you two should def get your hands on and review)
Maybe they assume that either the grub screws are secure enough that they can maintain the preload (when you tighten them after the skewer) or that they are insecure enough that they don't meaningfully interfere with the preload from the skewer. Not sure I would trust either to be reliable.
I don't know if I missed it, but another issue with the radially laced flange is the effective thickness of material that resists the spoke load is smaller than it would be in a cross laced hub flange.
I installed aero bars tt extensions) a customer bought from aero coach, the first set had such poor carbon compaction we couldn’t thread the gear cables through, the second set had massive voids visible at the end of the tube, we advised the customer against running them but he asked us to install them anyway:( , I’ll never buy anything from aero coach
That's a situation where we'd get the customer to sign what we called an "Unsafe Bicycle Notice" that noted they'd been told the thing as-is was unsafe and releasing us of any liability. Didn't happen often and we never got sued by anyone forced to sign 'em.
No spoke design is meant to hold any compressive load. A 1mm dia. spoke is going to buckle either way, dosn't matter if it is crossed or not, but also dosn't matter at all, because there is always a spoke in tension above to stop it taking a compressive load. Also there is no way you are looking at grain boundaries with the naked eye, polish it, etch it and get it under a microscope if you want to make claims there, otherwise just say it's a manufactuing defect (and tbh even there you should compare it to another one from the same company to see if it is design or manufacture)
there's a bun in power point - the distance is not 0.15mm but 0.15mm/2 also to be fair for such a deep wheel the spokes' angle is higher than for a shallow wheel, so in theory you can put flanges closer together to obtain same angle like for 20mm deep rim
Yes, building a radially-spoked wheel for a disc or driven wheel is a non-starter but radial front wheels have been successfully implemented with rim brakes. Crossed-spoke wheels have a huge advantage in that the radial pull on the hub flanges is very small. A 28-spoke 3-cross build, for example, has almost perfectly tangential spokes at the hub flange. The flanges have much more strength (resistance to spokes pulling-out) when the spoke tension is applied tangentially rather than radially.
Hub manufacturer typically tell the customer in the manual /data sheet if hubs are allowed for radial pattern. I PUT M8000 XT hubs into my MTB wheels this year, which are robust hubs, and they are not allowed for radial pattern.
The weight penalty for 3x or 2x relative to radial is so insignificant that it makes zero sense to do it with J-spokes. From an aero perspective, I would guess that once you're outside of the first 100mm of radius (where the crossings are) then a crossed wheel would be equivalent to the radially spoked wheel.
A properly-tensioned wheel should never or very rarely have spokes acting in compression. It's like the opposite of prestressed concrete. If spokes were used in compression like you're showing, they would all fatigue and break in short order, no matter how radial or tangential.
Exactly, nothing wrong with a radial front rim brake wheel as long as the hub can resist the forces through the spoke hole. Even the narrow flanges aren't a big deal, it just reduces the lateral stiffness
At least, if some spokes goes in compression, the main problem may be detensioning, witch may produce loosing of linkage to the hub, if some other conditions occurs. But, anyway, only tensioned spokes may give real contribute to wheel resistance and stability. In fact, correct way to model this kind of objects in any structural calculation software is using tie elements witch have only traction resistance and stiffness and both zero under compression loads. In MBT are now present some kind of fabric spokes that, obviously, are able to react only to axial tensioning. By the other side crossing spokes may produce (small but useless) benefit in spokes lateral stability (in Italian we call this "sbandamento", we can translate this as "drifting") only if spokes are mutually connected in their intersection, but this rarely occurs.
Spokes can physically never be compressed. They nipple at the rim is just sitting in its eyelet, so if you pushed on the spoke it will just push into the rim.
Anyone that would pay $1,100 for a hub is simply a fool looking hard to be separated from their cash for a nonsensical marketing claim. That is true even if the hub was not defective.
I saw a pair of their Ornix bars. They felt stiff and they're an interesting design. No failure (yet), but the guy was getting his bartape redone ... completely non-uniform thickness at the drop ends and huge creases inside as far as the light from the torch would shine. If the hubs are anything to go by, and these bars weren't an exception, they do things to the lowest price possible.
I hope he does not only goes for money back but also puts in a claim for endangering his life/health. The only way companies like this ever learn if it hurts them badly.
I don't think anyone is entitled to compensation for damages other than what actually was damaged. But I do think a forced recall of the product should be in the judgment by a court. This is not going to be a one-off situation if these are manufacturing and design flaws.
@@d_mac3233What happened is that they knowingly sold a product that wouldn't be safe. I.e. because they used sub-par production methods. It's just going to be hard to prove convincingly. So a major question is whether they did some kind of certification to test it's reliability/safety.
@@yspegel Yes attempted murder is a crime but I think we can safely say that this company didn't/don't intend to kill or injure any of their customers.
I have no interest in road bikes, I'm a mountain biker but I do love your vids Hambini. You stand up for the riders and brutally roast shoddy workmanship.
Hello Hambini, I think that it's worth reviewing and maybe improving your reaming a little bit. Regarding the fracture: the lines that you describe as grain boundaries (17:26) are rather beach marks of fatigue fracture rather than grain boundaries. The color and smoothness of metal between them differ depending of distance from initiation point at spoke hole, as the areas closer to initiation point rub against each other and are exposed to the elements for longer period of time before the final failure. The line drawn in 17:30 divides the crack between fatigue crack propagation area and fast (catastrophic) area, and the grain orientation in this two area are probably the same despite the fact that they look completely different on the fracture. Typically to reveal grain boundaries you need to gradually polish the surface of metal to the mirror finish and etch it with specific chemical. On fracture you can also sometimes see the grains if the fracture is intergranual, but I don't think it's the case in this hub's fatigue propagation area. Regarding column buckling, I disagree with your statement in 16:58: "that isn't susceptible to column buckling at all". I would say that it's even more susceptible to column buckling than vertical column on the left. Imagine you have 2 arrangements: 2 ultra thin (spoke like) vertical "columns" hinged on both sides and two the same ultra thin columns hinged on both sides, but placed at angle. If in both arrangements the columns are in compression, compression forces in tilted columns would be larger, and the tilted columns are longer. Both of this factors make the second arrangement much weaker in terms of buckling resistance. If you would draw the columns as spokes connected to the rim, you would also show that radial spokes are creating triangles between hub and rim. And in cross patterned wheels, since the spokes push on each other, the spokes are never really straight, which makes them even more useless in terms of compression stiffness and strength. Best regards, Adam
Spokes should always have enough tension to make potential behaviour as columns irrelevant since they are far too slender for such a purpose whether straight or cross laced.
@BorasadPL Crack propagation: 10/10, spoke theory... you and Hambini are kind of missing the point that spokes are meant to stay in tension. Not that I'm defending radially laced wheels, they often seem to cause more problems than they solve.
@@AndrewRasmussenRides, @SteveSmith-bq9rk , Yes, I agree with you absolutelly, for sure spokes aren't meant to work in compression and doesn't work that way, I only meant to address the "column buckling" theory itself.
Spokes don't carry any significant compression, they are tension-only members. Radial lacing gives a harsher ride but minimises spoke length, so it might have a small aero benefit, hence it being commonly used on TT front rim brake wheels.
Yeah, Hambini wandered of his talking points when he started mentioning compression loads on spokes. I'm positive he knows better. A number of good wheels have been laced up with cord, for heaven's sake!
Dr H I’d say, it was designed by someone at Aerocoach not conforming to hub design, and got manufactured somewhere else by some CNC operator who doesn’t know too. The flanges did not have required taper on outer surface radially beyond spoke holes to clear angled spoke arms. The flanges snapped off by not only radial pull from spokes, but also cantilever bending by angled spokes at two contact points; spoke hole and circumference of flange where angled spokes touch.
Hi Hambini - thanks for examining this POS and warning us from the engineering point of view. I did notice you struggled a bit with the science communication on radial lacing not being able to supply very good braking or acceleration torques. When I teach students physics I like to explain to them that there is no component of the spoke tension in the direction you need to generate a braking/acceleration torque when radially laced spokes are used. I draw a picture so they can see r X F (vector product) has r and F parallel and sin(0) = 0. Therefore under braking, the spoke is forced to become non-radial (effectively forming that triangulation for cross-lacing you mention) to supply any spoke tension component tangential to the rim. Get enough cycles of that going on given the spoke hole surface geometry you drew and... *frets away* Sealed X-rated section - given the small angle approximation is sin(theta)= theta (in rad) the braking force is directly proportional to the required sideways force component and spoke deflection angle. From what you said that's many kg-force not an insignificant fraction of the total spoke tension in any given spoke. Also keep up the good work!
Hmmm. I have these very same wheels, and I bought them about 4 years ago. I use them on my triathlon bike, which I use nearly exclusively on flat courses as well as training so weight has never been an issue for me. I’ve put roughly 3k miles per year on the Aeox wheels without issue. I’ve been quite satisfied with them given the price, which is half of what a pair of DT Swiss, Enve, or Zipp competitors were at the time I bought them. For me, they’ve definitely been faster mainly because they are 80mm wheels. For what they are priced at, and the end user they are intended for, which are triathletes and time-trial enthusiasts I think they’re okay. Of course if I wanted to upgrade in quality and aerodynamics I might look at some revolver wheels for racing, or another brand but for my niche running a low-cost rim brake TT bike the Aeox wheels have suited me well.
to disable that right click panel popup when pressing & holding your pen: windows button + Q > search control panel > hardware & sound > pen & touch > disable "pen & hold" action.
The issue with buckling is not as bad as you put it. In the example you made the plates are flat but in a wheel the rim is round and it adds its own resistance against compression. This is even more true for deep section carbon rims. This you can feel when adjusting the radial trueness in a deep section carbon rim. It’s very hard due to rim stiffness. Plus spokes normally have a tension of 1200N and hopefully at least 24 spokes in the front which means you need a lot of force to completely de-tension them. A well built wheel with good components lasts a life time even with radial spokes. But with those hubs clearly not!
The point about buckling isn't right anyway. There is no triangulationbas hambini implies, because the spokes are not joint in the crossing. If at all, the crossed laced spokes are longer and are therefore more prone to buckling than the radial spokes. But as the nipple can't transfer pressure to the spokes, this is a false argument anyways. The weight of the rider is supported by the upper spokes, not by the ones facing the road
@@oekmontb.9814Yeah it's unfortunate that the whole part about lacing was bollocks. I'm pretty sure hambini knows it so I don't understand why he included that demonstration that is purposefully pointless (maybe watch time idk)
Bit late to the party but - back in the 90’s when I was serious about building Harley chops some bright spark started the fashion for radial spoke - to get over the short comings they ended up using huge hubs and spokes the diameter of tree trunks or add more spokes (up to 240 in a wheel I saw) - it died a death thank goodness - appreciate the point on forged hubs - just sold a mid 90’s siesmic mtb hub which had not been used for years but had suffered catastrophic flange failure- I’d put it down to over tensioned spokes but now not so sure anyway it’s away to be remade for the next mtb what’s old is new again
So many design and manufacturing issues. I always thought energing was about building in redundancy. This feels like the opposite. 'what is the least amount of engineering we can put into a product for it to function.
I have Royce hubs on one of my bikes. The owner, Cliff, responds very quickly to emails. The workmanship is excellent. I'd like to see what Hambini thinks of a Royce hub, just to compare with his other reviews.
@@Hambini sadly not, was about 7 years ago. I have just dug up a photo though. I'll fire it over on email. Also have an email from wattshop stating that they had seen loads of these aerocoach armrests snapping.
Junk in junk out. In this day and age there is no excuse for poor quality machining, let alone materials. Shocking customer service. They deserve everything they get in backlash!
"no excuse for poor quality machining, let alone materials." Until the suckers stop buying it there's a big excuse called PROFIT. As the people who made good stuff used to say "Strong, light, cheap. Pick two."
A classic Hambini roasting! As we are told, aero is everything and weight no longer matters. How Aerocoach managed to make something so heavy, yet structuraly insufficient is just amazing! No doubt the hub was fixtured in the wind tunnel without the spokes, wheels, or bicycle. By some fluke, it had less aero drag compared to a Shimano XT front hub!
The most important part of this is the bit at the end about consumer rights. I’ll just add that the court will expect an attempt at mediation and so, first, inform the company in your notification letter that you are happy to do that (there’s a small fee). This is highly unlikely to be entered into in this situation with the outcome that the court will take the failure to mediate into account (almost automatic loss).
poor design, no tests, but MAGIC aero ppl are just stupid, buy stuff to befew seconds faster on 10km distance hilarious how did ppl even race 10-20 years ago ? todays bikers would be doomed
As for hubs I'm officially retro grouch. For track wheels I choose mass made Taiwan made forged hubs instead of boutique hubs CNC'd from a billet piece exactly for shown reasons, also price is a factor. I generally stay away from hubs marketed as super light or machined into meshed women underwear because of durability concerns. I'm also suspicious of aluminum axles with internal threads using bolts to secure wheel in frame.
@@bonbonflippers4298 But if you ask me - WI hubs are rather cycling jewellery than commodity. Quality bling which serves one well once money is spent on 'em. As for me, I look for serviceability and hardware - WI source every tiny bit you'd want to replace when damaged or worn out. Price isn't low but these things can be serviced and parts are available. If you value this aspect, go for them. Otherwise hubs are just hubs. Any hub with forged body made to tolerances and fitted with decent or good bearings without no nonsense engineering will do job. Hub has to provide holes for spokes, keep attached to frame/forks and interface to mount cog or cassette. Or disc, in case of disc brakes. Details make hub great, good or bad but any decently made hub is just fine. No fancy and expensive hubs make one faster.
I’ve got DT Swiss 240 hubs (S-Works branded) which did this - both front and rear. Looks like a radial wheel failure. Mine both broke while laced radially. That hub looks like it would have been fine if it was built with a crossed apple pattern.
A question with a preface - I completely agree with all you said about the strength of the narrow flange spacing and radial lacing. But, won't this be more aerodynamic?
Yes,and lighter,and less strong and puts loads of strain on the parts.As a mtber first and foremost and occasional road rider and have actually done a proper road race or two ,just don't bother with radial and pedal harder lol , especially with the state of NHS dentistry these days .(27 years building wheels and avoiding radial as much as I can ,when I ve done it it's been a DT hub designed for it and in a light rider and for race day only)
There is nothing in particular wrong with radial lacing on a front, rim break wheel. But, the hub needs to be designed to handle the forces. It wasn't uncommon in the early days of mountain biking for people to build radial spoked front wheels with hubs designed for 3 cross, only to have them fail just as this has. Not acceptable for an off the shelf product.
The mechanical principle of radial vs cross laced spokes was demonstrated incorrectly. A spoke behaves like a wire than can only be loaded axially in tension. The load from a radially laced spoke is therefore perpendicular to the rim and cannot transfer a tangential force. A cross laced spoke, due to its angle with the rim, is able to transfer both a radial and a tangential load, as required for cassettes and disc brakes.
In the commentary, I stated a radial spoke could not take a couple or pure moment because the support at the flange allowed rotation. It's not a built in support. It's more like a pin in one plane
And I would add that a cross-laced wheel results in lower tension transferred to the top spokes, say when you go over a bump, with the load being distributed across at least two spokes.
I have cheap $3 drive shafts from AliExpress from my RC car that weighed 13 lb that has better better Machining and it's made out of carbon steel and it's still 49 G or 50 g and it's still built better than that ugly looking hub that just looks like pot metal it doesn't look like sand casting or diecast at all
This is better than going to a live comedy gig. And its free. And i am learning stuff as well. I just had to replace my first set of bearings from my hambini special BB bought in 2018. They were stock bearings. It was my sunny only bike and i rode a few thousand miles a year on that. Only in sunshine. No rain. IVe got other bikes for that. Buy a hambini BB. You will not be disappoited and the bearing slast a really long time.
why even make the fairings out of solid aluminum??? some nice nylon or high quality plastic would be so much lighter and would allow for a better aero profile
It looks like the guy who specified the PCD of the spoke holes and the guy who designed the hub have a similar relationship to Hambini and his ex misses; they never talk to each other.
Also, by using radial lacing, the distance between the edge of the hole and the edge of the flange is smaller compared to cross lacing. If they were cross laced, there would be more 'meat' on the flange to divert the tension.
This is UA-cam so interactions and the information provided within the videos can be entertaining. From what I gather so far, this wheel and hub combo supposedly failed during a 10 mile race. I am also not sure, but I am also under the impression that the failure was from an impact or bump in the road. So this guy doesn't appear to like straight laced spoke. He also illustrates other hubs that are less weight. I went directly to their web sight. This wheels is priced at 829 euros. They have a wheel that costs less with the type of hub maker of this video points out. But what I also noticed. The wheel is specified for use in a velo drome. It does not say that it will not work on the street, but it is specified for velodrome. Those surfaces are very smooth. Probably very minimal bumps at all. The front wheel is also 2.3 Lbs without tire. Pretty light, but I wouldn't know if there are lighter or how light in comparison this one is.
Hey Hambini how much axial preload should a 6802 bearing have? I have some dt swiss hubs that seem to have too much. I'm thinking about turning down the shoulders on the axle on my lathe but need a number to shoot for.
As I understand it, the end bits are the "aero" modifications.... why on earth are those not made from plastic to save weight... and cost. Secondly... why are the spokes mounted so far from the hub spindle? Surely it would be less weight if it was closer to the hub spindle? $1100!? That's the cost of my bike, I have no name brand hubs on there and zero issues after thousands of miles!!
The criticism of this wheel is not only exaggerated, but also borders on disinformation. Whether it stems from Hambini’s supposed ignorance (which is highly doubtful given his background) or more likely a personal vendetta against Xavier Disley, the reality is that the design behind this wheel is not that bad. The weight is a non-issue-this is a TT product who cares? The extra 100g is like a fifth of a Watt on the flat. A decent engineer would have pointed out that the 100mm rim weight and its effect on angular momentum could impact handling, but the hub weight itself is irrelevant in this context. The ERD is tiny due to deep rims, and the hub flanges are super high on top of that, so the spoke bracing angle ends up being fine. The flange-to-center distance on the disc side of a DT350 front hub is 21mm, and those are laced up to rims with much larger ERDs/lower profiles. The buckling and radial argument is also busted: There’s no significant torque applied from the hub through the spokes to the rim (no pedaling or disc force). The Millennium Wheel in London is radially spoked with cables, also has torque applied to the "rim" to spin, and works fine. Spokes don’t act as columns; there's enough tension that even under load, all spokes stay in tension. Polymer (Berd) spokes wouldn’t work if that were the case. The nipples and spoke heads are designed to only handle tension and would come loose under compression. From an aero perspective, they were good enough for Ganna in 2021, so I suspect they’re actually quite effective: www.rennrad-news.de/news/pinarello-bolide-tt-filippo-ganna/. Even Hambini’s own data shows that deeper rims are better, and hiding more of the spokes with the narrow hubs behind the rim also makes sense. The machining on the hubs in this specific example is horrendous, the spoke interface is bad every and the customer service abysmal. But this video is also clearly a load of fluff. This is a cottage industry product, it actually works, pros are still using the latest iterations of this product, nobody got hurt. Chill out.
On Brooks cycles website they have old pics of wheels still, they are out of stock now don't seem to be getting made these ones now,wonder why? but still show very good close ups of the spokes in the hubs and they are ALL sitting at an angle downwards! Its only the bottom of the spoke head in contact with the hub the top end if floating! Says (please not not in current production)
Aero coach could probably have had these made by someone like 9velo and still sold them at the same price for profit. It’s either a poor choice of factory or purely financially driven, which is ironic in either case when you’re claiming to sell high performing wheels.
a tri spoke wheel I think is in order,I had 4 toilet flush handles fail and the grain of the metal was horrendous, but each time I bought a new one,like an idiot,should have complained item was faulty, but the questions
I don't think there is any problem with radial lacing in appropriate applications. I've got two sets of Mavic rim brake wheels (kysyrium and aksium) with 20 spoke radial lacing on the fronts. I appreciate that they might look flimsy to contemporary riders who are used to disc brake bikes but they've both done thousands of miles with me and I'm sure multiple millions as a product.
I'm not sure I fully under all of the engineering science here, as I'm only 7, what I do know it should not have happened, It's clearly a piss poor quality product. Hambini, keep up the good work!
It's just a guess without seeing exactly how they machined it or seeing the part closer up, but if your coolant isn't just right on aluminum you can get galling that builds up on the tip of the tool and causes it to cut deeper than usual. If that galling pops off mid-cut it can leave a step like that and it tends to leave a pretty crap finish while it's still stuck. You can usually avoid most of that by having a separate rougher and finisher though, and if the operators and inspectors are any fucking good though they should be flagging and scrapping those parts.
Who laces a radial wheel with spokes on the inside of the flange. They should be spoke on outside with angled flange to support the lead out from the elbow. Seems like we forgot about this somewhere along the line.
It's less 'aero' to have the spokes routed in a direction that better helps them carry the wheel load. I'm pretty sure that explains some of the other stupidity in this design as well.
I would think it depends upon the flange. I have a Specialized Stumpjumper from mid 90’s with radial front wheel laced on the inside, it’s been ridden hard and put away wet many times, took many trips down a BMX track as I was teaching kids that sport, and now serves duty as a shopping bike. So far it’s holding up.
When there are already two chunks broken out of the rim flanges, you could have conveniently used the notches they created to rest the hub so it wouldn't roll off the scale when weighing😉.
Spokes have zero strength under compression. When you are on the bike, the spokes at the bottom have practically zero load. The spokes at the top are in tension and carrying your weight.
the wedge shape flange might not be a problem if the spoke holes is countersunk properly. Then the spoke head will have a flat surface to bear against even if the flange is wedge shaped. And i don't see machining the hub from bar stock as a big problem. I bet most company's does that, and don't take the extra expense of making forgings. As long as you have enough material to take the load it should be no problem.
What an absolute joke of a hub in the spirit of that absolute purple company’s products. The front bearings can’t even be preloaded except through the front skewer. The flanges are straight out of the 1970’s😂. In 2024 I would expect that we can at least get the fro t hub right
I remember that Zipp used to build rear wheels withvradially laced spokes on the drive side... The flanges on these exploded in the very same fashion without having any manufacturing defects like these atrpcious pieces of crap.
Except in Mavic Rsys (with atrocious results) or bounded spokes there's no way spokes can buckle. Nipples would just just move into the rim (allowing them to unscrew what should sufficiently worrying). You can't say that a spoke is a cantilever beam with a fixed End. Each ends can rotate a bit. Radial lacing is bad because any torque would generate a force in the spokes around X/sin0° Newton. 😅(Aka infinity) Design is suspicious but machining is definitively inadequate .
I was the owner of this deathtrap!
@@jiyon167 keep us up to date on how the claim goes. Glad you are ok.
what did it look like when the breakdown happened, did it explode like a bomb and did you manage to stop without injury, once upon a time I saw when a carbon rim broke because it hit a deep hole in the road, they collected teeth from riders on the road
@@makantahi3731 I saw in the video that he discovered the damage after riding, so the wheel stayed upright and no accident fortunately 🙂
@@makantahi3731this wheel’s rim has a fairing on the rim. The spokes connect to an alloy rim like a more standard wheel. The spokes were fully in tact. I heard bang noise about 9 miles into a 10 mile race. I thought that sounds strange there was no vibration or buckle in the wheel. As hambini has stated I didn’t realise anything mechanical had happened till I got back to my car!
@@jiyon167 Im pretty surprised the wheel didn't completely go out of true, I mean you didn't even notice this happened. Wtf. Is that something to praise?
I still think the hubs are trash, but I can't get over that fact. Can someone explain this?
Update: Since this video dropped and the threat of legal action ensued, Aerocoach has finally responded to the customer after a whopping 6 months of ghosting. It shouldn't take a video like this to force a manufacturer to own up to their screw-ups.
I don't understand this kind of customer service. You deal with it swiftly and appropriately and it will never devolve into this mud slinging situation where everyone's really unhappy.
I think the very likely explanation is that Aerocoach drank their own koolaid and think they are now significantly above all paying customers.
Heck, it's only ONE unit you have to handle.
wait for shill channel to counter attack
Maybe AB will follow suit😅 ahahah Don't talk rubbish Richard😂
I don't even know what Hub that looks like that even a cheap Chinese ones have better material and design in that even at Walmart is better design than that
Have they sent in a replacement to get rid of him once and for all?
Man, this is some classic Hambini reams right here. What a refreshing upload.
... these* are* reams
All the people on here trying to find micro fault with the reaming …..ignoring that Aerocoach ignored the customer for 6 months. That alone condemns them for me
Shimano does the same sh@t. Their customer service is atrocious!!
@@kalijasin my one warranty case with Shimano was flawless, mtb Saint pedals replaced quickly and no questions asked
Who cares if it was 6 months or 6 days? The real issue here is that these clowns are obviously marketing some cheap dime store fabbed hubs as if they are some amazing piece of Porsche F1 Development team engineered product and it is somehow giving you some imaginary huge performance benefit when it most certainly is not. This looks like yet another pure snake oil cycling product being sold for a nosebleed price for no logical reason other than the pure gullibility of fools that are easily marketed to.
@@axiomicok, then its a 50-50 chanche that they will ignore you or not
I agree, Of all my defective parts, i consider the ones that ghosted me the worst...like my novatec hub that lasted two rides before cracking in 8 places....another death trap.
As a MTBer I am not into any thing with Aero in it, so I had a good laugh when I googled these things and second thing than comes up in the search is pictures of this hub broken bits clear as day... nice work Hambini highlighting these issues may save someone a trip to the A&E
You know it is a good reaming, when the shit-counter is two-digit after the first 5 minutes.
Great vid, mate. Very informative. I've worked on bikes and motorcycles as good as all my life, 73 years old now, and I'm still learning something new.
For those who usually say "Oh yeah you can see the machining marks, it is not a big deal", but those marks (surface roughness) actually contributs to the fatigue of a part!
... those marks actually contribute* ...
@@einundsiebenziger5488 autistic grammar nazi is* in da hous
Just to add, the product doesn't need to be UK manufactured or branded by a UK company to make a claim.
If a product is bought into the UK by a distributor or even a specialist company/individual under the Act they ultimately have the responsibility to ensure the product complies with the CCA.
If you have no joy in resolving an issue with say, your local bike shop, you can go directly to the UK agent for resolution.
@phil -d An arguable point ….. but point of sale as I understand it is key , they are the legally responsible party with statutory duties as set out in the Consumer Protection Act 2015 ……..anyone who sells in the ‘course of a business’ (as opposed to a private individual), so arguable you can pull the wholesaler in as well, IMO a potential but secondary inclusion…… but always an option, especially if the LBS has had the misfortune to have closed the doors, as you say. . Distinguish any manufacturer’s ‘Guarantee’ which is an entirely separate matter based not on statute but contract law. Personal view only …………….for obvious reasons .
@kevinfrost1579 I have been successful in such, when the PoS was no longer in a position to help.
There’s nothing quite like a manufacturer trying to send you to an early grave both financially and physically with their cheap for them manufacturing.
This used to happen in the 90s when CNC machining of bicycle parts was first a thing. Then they figured out for hubs they had to at least start with a forged cylinder, not an oblong shape. The flange isn't pulled on evenly which messes up the bearing surface as well.
I'll never forget visiting Campagnolo in Vicenza where the PR wizard reached into a bin, pulled out forged blank for a hub and gave it to me as a gift. Wish I still had it.
Ya really gotta wonder WTF the lesson that hubs should be forged hasn't been learned? Morons/suckers are born every day, as they say!
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 even Campy used to warn "NO!" regarding radial lacing front wheels. (Sadly, saw that warning AFTER destroying a Record hub by radially lacing it.)
@@joebolan4082 But much later they sold plenty of radial laced front wheels that worked just fine. I have a few though now of course disc brakes make the idea a no-go like it always was for rear wheels.
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 yes, and I have one (16-spoke Zonda). Engineered for radial lacing with more material in the direction of the radial pull, perhaps also different in the material as well. In any case, the hub must be engineered for radial lacing.
Hi consider removing the Rudolph mat as the camera focus on it 99% of the time. Your object essentially becomes less than 240p regardless of HD.
Unfortunately I had this exact same thing happen to my 3 year old Chris King front disc brake hub. I laced it 3X. I contacted Chris King about it. They asked for the serial number, I gave it to them, and they said it was out of warranty. I plan on buying some replacements as soon as I can afford to. Thanks.
Does ANYONE who knows metallurgy/design ever get consulted BEFORE crap like this is made...and SOLD? Back in my bike retail daze CNC'd aluminum junk anodized in pretty colors was the rage - cranks, hubs, stems, seatposts, etc. A lot of it failed which always brought me to ask the customer whose mellow was harshed "WTF happened to the perfectly good, FORGED alloy component you yanked off to replace it with this POS? Why don't you put it back on?" But too many times they wanted another one under warranty!!! I just scratched my head and let them know they'd been warned. I tried to get the shop owner to stop selling the junk. to no avail. "Fools and their money" as they say! Some things never change - marketing is king!
If the end caps are locked to the axle, the bearings get no preload when clamped up… or do you do up the axle and then tighten the grub screwed? Not practical for wheel changes.
Me and my homies love preload
Crap design anyway. Horrible to look at and pointless. But that's AERO-COCK-ROACH for ya! 😅
Horrible to look at crap design and pointless. CAMPAGNOLO are better.😊
Someone correct me if they know better, but my understanding is that the caps first get tightened, previously pushing them against the bearings with minimal force. Once that is tight, you tighten the skewer and that adds the remaining preload.
I don't think it's pretty but it's been working out well for me (using some basic novatec hubs, which one of you two should def get your hands on and review)
Maybe they assume that either the grub screws are secure enough that they can maintain the preload (when you tighten them after the skewer) or that they are insecure enough that they don't meaningfully interfere with the preload from the skewer. Not sure I would trust either to be reliable.
I don't know if I missed it, but another issue with the radially laced flange is the effective thickness of material that resists the spoke load is smaller than it would be in a cross laced hub flange.
Good observation!
I installed aero bars tt extensions) a customer bought from aero coach, the first set had such poor carbon compaction we couldn’t thread the gear cables through, the second set had massive voids visible at the end of the tube, we advised the customer against running them but he asked us to install them anyway:( , I’ll never buy anything from aero coach
Any pics?
That's a situation where we'd get the customer to sign what we called an "Unsafe Bicycle Notice" that noted they'd been told the thing as-is was unsafe and releasing us of any liability. Didn't happen often and we never got sued by anyone forced to sign 'em.
@@Hambinisent via website , hoping files weren’t too big
No spoke design is meant to hold any compressive load. A 1mm dia. spoke is going to buckle either way, dosn't matter if it is crossed or not, but also dosn't matter at all, because there is always a spoke in tension above to stop it taking a compressive load.
Also there is no way you are looking at grain boundaries with the naked eye, polish it, etch it and get it under a microscope if you want to make claims there, otherwise just say it's a manufactuing defect (and tbh even there you should compare it to another one from the same company to see if it is design or manufacture)
there's a bun in power point - the distance is not 0.15mm but 0.15mm/2
also to be fair for such a deep wheel the spokes' angle is higher than for a shallow wheel, so in theory you can put flanges closer together to obtain same angle like for 20mm deep rim
Yes, building a radially-spoked wheel for a disc or driven wheel is a non-starter but radial front wheels have been successfully implemented with rim brakes. Crossed-spoke wheels have a huge advantage in that the radial pull on the hub flanges is very small. A 28-spoke 3-cross build, for example, has almost perfectly tangential spokes at the hub flange. The flanges have much more strength (resistance to spokes pulling-out) when the spoke tension is applied tangentially rather than radially.
Hub manufacturer typically tell the customer in the manual /data sheet if hubs are allowed for radial pattern.
I PUT M8000 XT hubs into my MTB wheels this year, which are robust hubs, and they are not allowed for radial pattern.
The weight penalty for 3x or 2x relative to radial is so insignificant that it makes zero sense to do it with J-spokes. From an aero perspective, I would guess that once you're outside of the first 100mm of radius (where the crossings are) then a crossed wheel would be equivalent to the radially spoked wheel.
A properly-tensioned wheel should never or very rarely have spokes acting in compression. It's like the opposite of prestressed concrete. If spokes were used in compression like you're showing, they would all fatigue and break in short order, no matter how radial or tangential.
Exactly, nothing wrong with a radial front rim brake wheel as long as the hub can resist the forces through the spoke hole. Even the narrow flanges aren't a big deal, it just reduces the lateral stiffness
At least, if some spokes goes in compression, the main problem may be detensioning, witch may produce loosing of linkage to the hub, if some other conditions occurs. But, anyway, only tensioned spokes may give real contribute to wheel resistance and stability. In fact, correct way to model this kind of objects in any structural calculation software is using tie elements witch have only traction resistance and stiffness and both zero under compression loads. In MBT are now present some kind of fabric spokes that, obviously, are able to react only to axial tensioning. By the other side crossing spokes may produce (small but useless) benefit in spokes lateral stability (in Italian we call this "sbandamento", we can translate this as "drifting") only if spokes are mutually connected in their intersection, but this rarely occurs.
Spokes can physically never be compressed. They nipple at the rim is just sitting in its eyelet, so if you pushed on the spoke it will just push into the rim.
The Reaming bingo card is full with this one ❤ - superlatives and innuendoes excellently delivered ❤😂
Other innuendos as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. 😂
Anyone that would pay $1,100 for a hub is simply a fool looking hard to be separated from their cash for a nonsensical marketing claim. That is true even if the hub was not defective.
"Aerooach" above, maybe you intended to write "Aeroouch"
Or "Aeroroach"
Classic Hambini, life saving, reaming. Excellent😄👍👍👍
I saw a pair of their Ornix bars. They felt stiff and they're an interesting design. No failure (yet), but the guy was getting his bartape redone ... completely non-uniform thickness at the drop ends and huge creases inside as far as the light from the torch would shine. If the hubs are anything to go by, and these bars weren't an exception, they do things to the lowest price possible.
I hope he does not only goes for money back but also puts in a claim for endangering his life/health. The only way companies like this ever learn if it hurts them badly.
Is suing someone for what might have happened even a possibility?
I don't think anyone is entitled to compensation for damages other than what actually was damaged. But I do think a forced recall of the product should be in the judgment by a court. This is not going to be a one-off situation if these are manufacturing and design flaws.
@@d_mac3233What happened is that they knowingly sold a product that wouldn't be safe. I.e. because they used sub-par production methods. It's just going to be hard to prove convincingly. So a major question is whether they did some kind of certification to test it's reliability/safety.
@@d_mac3233 attempt murder is a thing isn't it? They put you knowingly in harms way.
@@yspegel Yes attempted murder is a crime but I think we can safely say that this company didn't/don't intend to kill or injure any of their customers.
Great job Hambini.
I have no interest in road bikes, I'm a mountain biker but I do love your vids Hambini. You stand up for the riders and brutally roast shoddy workmanship.
Hello Hambini, I think that it's worth reviewing and maybe improving your reaming a little bit. Regarding the fracture: the lines that you describe as grain boundaries (17:26) are rather beach marks of fatigue fracture rather than grain boundaries. The color and smoothness of metal between them differ depending of distance from initiation point at spoke hole, as the areas closer to initiation point rub against each other and are exposed to the elements for longer period of time before the final failure. The line drawn in 17:30 divides the crack between fatigue crack propagation area and fast (catastrophic) area, and the grain orientation in this two area are probably the same despite the fact that they look completely different on the fracture. Typically to reveal grain boundaries you need to gradually polish the surface of metal to the mirror finish and etch it with specific chemical. On fracture you can also sometimes see the grains if the fracture is intergranual, but I don't think it's the case in this hub's fatigue propagation area.
Regarding column buckling, I disagree with your statement in 16:58: "that isn't susceptible to column buckling at all". I would say that it's even more susceptible to column buckling than vertical column on the left. Imagine you have 2 arrangements: 2 ultra thin (spoke like) vertical "columns" hinged on both sides and two the same ultra thin columns hinged on both sides, but placed at angle. If in both arrangements the columns are in compression, compression forces in tilted columns would be larger, and the tilted columns are longer. Both of this factors make the second arrangement much weaker in terms of buckling resistance. If you would draw the columns as spokes connected to the rim, you would also show that radial spokes are creating triangles between hub and rim. And in cross patterned wheels, since the spokes push on each other, the spokes are never really straight, which makes them even more useless in terms of compression stiffness and strength.
Best regards, Adam
Spokes should always have enough tension to make potential behaviour as columns irrelevant since they are far too slender for such a purpose whether straight or cross laced.
@BorasadPL Crack propagation: 10/10, spoke theory... you and Hambini are kind of missing the point that spokes are meant to stay in tension. Not that I'm defending radially laced wheels, they often seem to cause more problems than they solve.
@@AndrewRasmussenRides, @SteveSmith-bq9rk , Yes, I agree with you absolutelly, for sure spokes aren't meant to work in compression and doesn't work that way, I only meant to address the "column buckling" theory itself.
Spokes don't carry any significant compression, they are tension-only members. Radial lacing gives a harsher ride but minimises spoke length, so it might have a small aero benefit, hence it being commonly used on TT front rim brake wheels.
Yeah, Hambini wandered of his talking points when he started mentioning compression loads on spokes. I'm positive he knows better. A number of good wheels have been laced up with cord, for heaven's sake!
11:45 Very rude of that guy to keep interrupting you.
It's your impeccable timing
We don't mind ,we know your desperate for the hair dressers number 😉
It's nice to listen to a clever man.
Tell us what you really think! 😂
Dr H
I’d say, it was designed by someone at Aerocoach not conforming to hub design, and got manufactured somewhere else by some CNC operator who doesn’t know too.
The flanges did not have required taper on outer surface radially beyond spoke holes to clear angled spoke arms.
The flanges snapped off by not only radial pull from spokes, but also cantilever bending by angled spokes at two contact points; spoke hole and circumference of flange where angled spokes touch.
Hi Hambini - thanks for examining this POS and warning us from the engineering point of view.
I did notice you struggled a bit with the science communication on radial lacing not being able to supply very good braking or acceleration torques. When I teach students physics I like to explain to them that there is no component of the spoke tension in the direction you need to generate a braking/acceleration torque when radially laced spokes are used. I draw a picture so they can see r X F (vector product) has r and F parallel and sin(0) = 0.
Therefore under braking, the spoke is forced to become non-radial (effectively forming that triangulation for cross-lacing you mention) to supply any spoke tension component tangential to the rim.
Get enough cycles of that going on given the spoke hole surface geometry you drew and... *frets away*
Sealed X-rated section - given the small angle approximation is sin(theta)= theta (in rad) the braking force is directly proportional to the required sideways force component and spoke deflection angle. From what you said that's many kg-force not an insignificant fraction of the total spoke tension in any given spoke.
Also keep up the good work!
Hmmm. I have these very same wheels, and I bought them about 4 years ago. I use them on my triathlon bike, which I use nearly exclusively on flat courses as well as training so weight has never been an issue for me. I’ve put roughly 3k miles per year on the Aeox wheels without issue. I’ve been quite satisfied with them given the price, which is half of what a pair of DT Swiss, Enve, or Zipp competitors were at the time I bought them. For me, they’ve definitely been faster mainly because they are 80mm wheels. For what they are priced at, and the end user they are intended for, which are triathletes and time-trial enthusiasts I think they’re okay. Of course if I wanted to upgrade in quality and aerodynamics I might look at some revolver wheels for racing, or another brand but for my niche running a low-cost rim brake TT bike the Aeox wheels have suited me well.
to disable that right click panel popup when pressing & holding your pen: windows button + Q > search control panel > hardware & sound > pen & touch > disable "pen & hold" action.
Thanks very much!
Why would anybody know this?
@@svgs650r clearly you are not as intimate with your pen as i am with mine
Pen-is in, pen-is out. Shake it all about!
The issue with buckling is not as bad as you put it. In the example you made the plates are flat but in a wheel the rim is round and it adds its own resistance against compression. This is even more true for deep section carbon rims. This you can feel when adjusting the radial trueness in a deep section carbon rim. It’s very hard due to rim stiffness. Plus spokes normally have a tension of 1200N and hopefully at least 24 spokes in the front which means you need a lot of force to completely de-tension them. A well built wheel with good components lasts a life time even with radial spokes. But with those hubs clearly not!
The point about buckling isn't right anyway. There is no triangulationbas hambini implies, because the spokes are not joint in the crossing. If at all, the crossed laced spokes are longer and are therefore more prone to buckling than the radial spokes. But as the nipple can't transfer pressure to the spokes, this is a false argument anyways. The weight of the rider is supported by the upper spokes, not by the ones facing the road
@@oekmontb.9814Yeah it's unfortunate that the whole part about lacing was bollocks. I'm pretty sure hambini knows it so I don't understand why he included that demonstration that is purposefully pointless (maybe watch time idk)
Bit late to the party but - back in the 90’s when I was serious about building Harley chops some bright spark started the fashion for radial spoke - to get over the short comings they ended up using huge hubs and spokes the diameter of tree trunks or add more spokes (up to 240 in a wheel I saw) - it died a death thank goodness - appreciate the point on forged hubs - just sold a mid 90’s siesmic mtb hub which had not been used for years but had suffered catastrophic flange failure- I’d put it down to over tensioned spokes but now not so sure anyway it’s away to be remade for the next mtb what’s old is new again
I feel you've held back. Don't be afraid to speak your mind.
So many design and manufacturing issues. I always thought energing was about building in redundancy. This feels like the opposite. 'what is the least amount of engineering we can put into a product for it to function.
Bad design plus bad machining equals all kinds of badness. Well explained, Hambini.
thanks from sunny Vienna, Scott
Five minutes in and I wanted to hit that Like Button at least three times!
I have Royce hubs on one of my bikes. The owner, Cliff, responds very quickly to emails. The workmanship is excellent. I'd like to see what Hambini thinks of a Royce hub, just to compare with his other reviews.
They refused responsibility for my TT arm rests splitting in two mid ride. Sold as carbon, were not carbon!
Have you still got them?
@@Hambini sadly not, was about 7 years ago. I have just dug up a photo though. I'll fire it over on email. Also have an email from wattshop stating that they had seen loads of these aerocoach armrests snapping.
@@jameseastwood402I have a set of the prone to snapping armrests 👀
Junk in junk out. In this day and age there is no excuse for poor quality machining, let alone materials. Shocking customer service. They deserve everything they get in backlash!
"no excuse for poor quality machining, let alone materials."
Until the suckers stop buying it there's a big excuse called PROFIT. As the people who made good stuff used to say "Strong, light, cheap. Pick two."
A classic Hambini roasting! As we are told, aero is everything and weight no longer matters. How Aerocoach managed to make something so heavy, yet structuraly insufficient is just amazing! No doubt the hub was fixtured in the wind tunnel without the spokes, wheels, or bicycle. By some fluke, it had less aero drag compared to a Shimano XT front hub!
The sarcasm!
The most important part of this is the bit at the end about consumer rights. I’ll just add that the court will expect an attempt at mediation and so, first, inform the company in your notification letter that you are happy to do that (there’s a small fee). This is highly unlikely to be entered into in this situation with the outcome that the court will take the failure to mediate into account (almost automatic loss).
When junk is designed and manufactured to be “just good enough.” What a piece of crap hub.
poor design, no tests, but MAGIC aero
ppl are just stupid, buy stuff to befew seconds faster on 10km distance
hilarious
how did ppl even race 10-20 years ago ?
todays bikers would be doomed
@@statom985that’s descriptive of most bike industry.
Is that all the Bike industry is producing now, complete junk? 🤦♀
As for hubs I'm officially retro grouch. For track wheels I choose mass made Taiwan made forged hubs instead of boutique hubs CNC'd from a billet piece exactly for shown reasons, also price is a factor. I generally stay away from hubs marketed as super light or machined into meshed women underwear because of durability concerns. I'm also suspicious of aluminum axles with internal threads using bolts to secure wheel in frame.
What about white industries hubs with steel axles?
WI hubs are good....and expensive.
@@bonbonflippers4298 But if you ask me - WI hubs are rather cycling jewellery than commodity. Quality bling which serves one well once money is spent on 'em. As for me, I look for serviceability and hardware - WI source every tiny bit you'd want to replace when damaged or worn out. Price isn't low but these things can be serviced and parts are available. If you value this aspect, go for them. Otherwise hubs are just hubs. Any hub with forged body made to tolerances and fitted with decent or good bearings without no nonsense engineering will do job. Hub has to provide holes for spokes, keep attached to frame/forks and interface to mount cog or cassette. Or disc, in case of disc brakes. Details make hub great, good or bad but any decently made hub is just fine. No fancy and expensive hubs make one faster.
I experienced the same failure on a Mavic 32 spoke front hub; this was about 30 years ago.
I’ve got DT Swiss 240 hubs (S-Works branded) which did this - both front and rear.
Looks like a radial wheel failure. Mine both broke while laced radially. That hub looks like it would have been fine if it was built with a crossed apple pattern.
A question with a preface - I completely agree with all you said about the strength of the narrow flange spacing and radial lacing. But, won't this be more aerodynamic?
Yes,and lighter,and less strong and puts loads of strain on the parts.As a mtber first and foremost and occasional road rider and have actually done a proper road race or two ,just don't bother with radial and pedal harder lol , especially with the state of NHS dentistry these days .(27 years building wheels and avoiding radial as much as I can ,when I ve done it it's been a DT hub designed for it and in a light rider and for race day only)
There is nothing in particular wrong with radial lacing on a front, rim break wheel. But, the hub needs to be designed to handle the forces. It wasn't uncommon in the early days of mountain biking for people to build radial spoked front wheels with hubs designed for 3 cross, only to have them fail just as this has. Not acceptable for an off the shelf product.
The mechanical principle of radial vs cross laced spokes was demonstrated incorrectly. A spoke behaves like a wire than can only be loaded axially in tension. The load from a radially laced spoke is therefore perpendicular to the rim and cannot transfer a tangential force. A cross laced spoke, due to its angle with the rim, is able to transfer both a radial and a tangential load, as required for cassettes and disc brakes.
In the commentary, I stated a radial spoke could not take a couple or pure moment because the support at the flange allowed rotation. It's not a built in support. It's more like a pin in one plane
And I would add that a cross-laced wheel results in lower tension transferred to the top spokes, say when you go over a bump, with the load being distributed across at least two spokes.
Fantastic intro, well done...
I have cheap $3 drive shafts from AliExpress from my RC car that weighed 13 lb that has better better Machining and it's made out of carbon steel and it's still 49 G or 50 g and it's still built better than that ugly looking hub that just looks like pot metal it doesn't look like sand casting or diecast at all
This is better than going to a live comedy gig. And its free. And i am learning stuff as well. I just had to replace my first set of bearings from my hambini special BB bought in 2018. They were stock bearings. It was my sunny only bike and i rode a few thousand miles a year on that. Only in sunshine. No rain. IVe got other bikes for that. Buy a hambini BB. You will not be disappoited and the bearing slast a really long time.
Oh dear, well think I will stick with my DT Swiss non death trap hubs.
why even make the fairings out of solid aluminum??? some nice nylon or high quality plastic would be so much lighter and would allow for a better aero profile
You would expect exceptional design and customer service for that price
I’ve seen vintage campagnolo hubs fail in the same way. I just assumed this was a common failure even in decent hubs.
By radially lacing, a hypothetical force from the hub would result in a infinite force in the spoke (some forces divided by cos(90°)).
It looks like the guy who specified the PCD of the spoke holes and the guy who designed the hub have a similar relationship to Hambini and his ex misses; they never talk to each other.
Also, by using radial lacing, the distance between the edge of the hole and the edge of the flange is smaller compared to cross lacing. If they were cross laced, there would be more 'meat' on the flange to divert the tension.
This is UA-cam so interactions and the information provided within the videos can be entertaining. From what I gather so far, this wheel and hub combo supposedly failed during a 10 mile race. I am also not sure, but I am also under the impression that the failure was from an impact or bump in the road.
So this guy doesn't appear to like straight laced spoke. He also illustrates other hubs that are less weight.
I went directly to their web sight. This wheels is priced at 829 euros. They have a wheel that costs less with the type of hub maker of this video points out. But what I also noticed. The wheel is specified for use in a velo drome. It does not say that it will not work on the street, but it is specified for velodrome. Those surfaces are very smooth. Probably very minimal bumps at all. The front wheel is also 2.3 Lbs without tire. Pretty light, but I wouldn't know if there are lighter or how light in comparison this one is.
the Golden Turd Awards must become a thing !!
Ok I'll try anything once, but Alfredo may not be down with it. Alfredo cuts my hair.
Oh, its that Company with the funny odd shaped handlebars, oh dear oh dear and some more "oh dear" and "oh no".
Hey Hambini how much axial preload should a 6802 bearing have? I have some dt swiss hubs that seem to have too much. I'm thinking about turning down the shoulders on the axle on my lathe but need a number to shoot for.
Love your sense of humor
First minute was absolutely brutal😂😂😂
As I understand it, the end bits are the "aero" modifications.... why on earth are those not made from plastic to save weight... and cost. Secondly... why are the spokes mounted so far from the hub spindle? Surely it would be less weight if it was closer to the hub spindle? $1100!? That's the cost of my bike, I have no name brand hubs on there and zero issues after thousands of miles!!
He’s back!!!!!! Love it!
The criticism of this wheel is not only exaggerated, but also borders on disinformation. Whether it stems from Hambini’s supposed ignorance (which is highly doubtful given his background) or more likely a personal vendetta against Xavier Disley, the reality is that the design behind this wheel is not that bad.
The weight is a non-issue-this is a TT product who cares? The extra 100g is like a fifth of a Watt on the flat. A decent engineer would have pointed out that the 100mm rim weight and its effect on angular momentum could impact handling, but the hub weight itself is irrelevant in this context.
The ERD is tiny due to deep rims, and the hub flanges are super high on top of that, so the spoke bracing angle ends up being fine. The flange-to-center distance on the disc side of a DT350 front hub is 21mm, and those are laced up to rims with much larger ERDs/lower profiles.
The buckling and radial argument is also busted:
There’s no significant torque applied from the hub through the spokes to the rim (no pedaling or disc force). The Millennium Wheel in London is radially spoked with cables, also has torque applied to the "rim" to spin, and works fine.
Spokes don’t act as columns; there's enough tension that even under load, all spokes stay in tension. Polymer (Berd) spokes wouldn’t work if that were the case. The nipples and spoke heads are designed to only handle tension and would come loose under compression.
From an aero perspective, they were good enough for Ganna in 2021, so I suspect they’re actually quite effective: www.rennrad-news.de/news/pinarello-bolide-tt-filippo-ganna/. Even Hambini’s own data shows that deeper rims are better, and hiding more of the spokes with the narrow hubs behind the rim also makes sense.
The machining on the hubs in this specific example is horrendous, the spoke interface is bad every and the customer service abysmal. But this video is also clearly a load of fluff. This is a cottage industry product, it actually works, pros are still using the latest iterations of this product, nobody got hurt.
Chill out.
On Brooks cycles website they have old pics of wheels still, they are out of stock now don't seem to be getting made these ones now,wonder why? but still show very good close ups of the spokes in the hubs and they are ALL sitting at an angle downwards! Its only the bottom of the spoke head in contact with the hub the top end if floating! Says (please not not in current production)
Aero coach could probably have had these made by someone like 9velo and still sold them at the same price for profit. It’s either a poor choice of factory or purely financially driven, which is ironic in either case when you’re claiming to sell high performing wheels.
a tri spoke wheel I think is in order,I had 4 toilet flush handles fail and the grain of the metal was horrendous, but each time I bought a new one,like an idiot,should have complained item was faulty, but the questions
I don't think there is any problem with radial lacing in appropriate applications.
I've got two sets of Mavic rim brake wheels (kysyrium and aksium) with 20 spoke radial lacing on the fronts.
I appreciate that they might look flimsy to contemporary riders who are used to disc brake bikes but they've both done thousands of miles with me and I'm sure multiple millions as a product.
16:44 spokes wont bend if you apply pressure like this. they just would pop into the rim or out of their sockets
I'm not sure I fully under all of the engineering science here, as I'm only 7, what I do know it should not have happened, It's clearly a piss poor quality product. Hambini, keep up the good work!
It's just a guess without seeing exactly how they machined it or seeing the part closer up, but if your coolant isn't just right on aluminum you can get galling that builds up on the tip of the tool and causes it to cut deeper than usual. If that galling pops off mid-cut it can leave a step like that and it tends to leave a pretty crap finish while it's still stuck. You can usually avoid most of that by having a separate rougher and finisher though, and if the operators and inspectors are any fucking good though they should be flagging and scrapping those parts.
Who laces a radial wheel with spokes on the inside of the flange. They should be spoke on outside with angled flange to support the lead out from the elbow. Seems like we forgot about this somewhere along the line.
It's less 'aero' to have the spokes routed in a direction that better helps them carry the wheel load. I'm pretty sure that explains some of the other stupidity in this design as well.
I would think it depends upon the flange. I have a Specialized Stumpjumper from mid 90’s with radial front wheel laced on the inside, it’s been ridden hard and put away wet many times, took many trips down a BMX track as I was teaching kids that sport, and now serves duty as a shopping bike. So far it’s holding up.
That's BS. Pretty much every rimbrake aero frontwheel has inside radial lacing if straight pulls aren't used (which have other disadvantages).
Lost sale for Xavier, more for the way he handled it. You expect good customer service from small businesses
When there are already two chunks broken out of the rim flanges, you could have conveniently used the notches they created to rest the hub so it wouldn't roll off the scale when weighing😉.
Hambini mate, you really should come off of that fence! ;)
Spokes have zero strength under compression. When you are on the bike, the spokes at the bottom have practically zero load. The spokes at the top are in tension and carrying your weight.
Rony Kuba shared his fair share of issues using Aero Coach’s stuff on his UA-cam channel.
the wedge shape flange might not be a problem if the spoke holes is countersunk properly. Then the spoke head will have a flat surface to bear against even if the flange is wedge shaped. And i don't see machining the hub from bar stock as a big problem. I bet most company's does that, and don't take the extra expense of making forgings. As long as you have enough material to take the load it should be no problem.
I thought there was something about machined hubs not being suitable for radial lacing, but can't remember exactly why.
They probably paid $150 for 1000 of them on alibaba 😂
What an absolute joke of a hub in the spirit of that absolute purple company’s products. The front bearings can’t even be preloaded except through the front skewer. The flanges are straight out of the 1970’s😂. In 2024 I would expect that we can at least get the fro t hub right
I remember that Zipp used to build rear wheels withvradially laced spokes on the drive side... The flanges on these exploded in the very same fashion without having any manufacturing defects like these atrpcious pieces of crap.
Santander Cycles have taken an anti aero stance.
Today you can sell anything as long it's got the magic word "aero" in the name ...
It'll be bars of chocolate next!
@@chrisb5824 I hereby copyright the name "Aerobar"©️ !☝🏻😊
Truly shocking on all counts.
That's the worst finish I've seen on any bike product in the last 25 years. Mind blowing bad 😲
Except in Mavic Rsys (with atrocious results) or bounded spokes there's no way spokes can buckle. Nipples would just just move into the rim (allowing them to unscrew what should sufficiently worrying).
You can't say that a spoke is a cantilever beam with a fixed End. Each ends can rotate a bit. Radial lacing is bad because any torque would generate a force in the spokes around X/sin0° Newton. 😅(Aka infinity)
Design is suspicious but machining is definitively inadequate .
Even Mavic eventually stopped having radial spokes on the drive side of their rear wheel.
Friday afternoon specials on daily order's these days shocking!