Why i love your channel is because i get so many exciting modern researched books on Islam by young Erudite modern Muslim scholars who either scientifically updates past scholarly works of those genius past scholars or throw more light on their writings which authenticated the truth of Islam as the final religion sent to Mankind and the Djinn.
The problem with these UA-cam channels is that they promote any topic even when they don’t believe in it themselves. I very much doubt that Paul is a Salafi who believes in apostasy laws
What genius scholars are you babbling about. If the Salafi so called “scholars” of the past were geniuses then the Islamic world wouldn’t be in the dark ages
All that these genius scholars and people like hamza tzortis bring you is more darkness and distort the Quran with false Hadith on apostasy that directly contradict the Quran
One hundred percent! You completely get lost in thought here, not knowing how many hours you spent listening/watching because you are so amazed and intellectually nourished
@@Saa42808 it is false assumption. Courage can have many forms in different fields. TRUE COURAGE IS SAYING TRUTH When needed. IT IS FIght for truth when needed.
@@johnbrzykcy3076we Humans need to stop associating Great Wisdom with Old age, Wisdom is taught and can be taught to anyone of Any age. We must stray away from this weak thinking! may Allah bless us all with more Wisdom ❤️
@@VelociJX I actually tend to agree with you. Because some young people seem to have a lot of wisdom. And another good example, although not necessarily pertaining to age, was Jesus Christ Himself. His wisdom was remarkable. By the way, I should mention that I'm not Muslim. I'm a simple Christian believer. My lack of wisdom is probably influenced by heredity and environment. I've had cancer twice and it seems like my brain cells are deteriorating. So I'm wondering if I'd have the intellectual ability to understand the Quran ? ( Especially since I don't know Arabic language ). Do you need wisdom to understand the Quran? Anyhow, I appreciate your honesty. Respectfully..
Salaams, brother Paul, and thank you ❤ Another amazing talk. Sincere thanks for all your guidance. I will be going to London soon to take my Shahada with my muslim family members. I will always remember you in my dua. I feel so happy ❤
None of the ayats you mention are defining concepts of Islam. One can enter a garden and be impressed by the beauty around, or one can enter it and with a magnifying glass look for the worms and the beasties in it. @komrij1944
@@komrij1944 We are not here to waste time, friend. If you are serious and want to learn and understand that is something else. If we answer your questions, whatever they are, are you going to embrace Islam, if not, don't waste our time. Greetings from Scandinavia.
The quality of their discourse is outstanding, showcasing exceptional intelligence and depth. Our precious brother Paul brings the best of the best to us. Jazak Allahu khair Hamza Tzortzis and Paul.
Such a robust argument, brother Hamza is a lovely gem for the Ummah. I'd also love to see you invite the brother mentioned to discuss Islamic law vs applied Islamic law, it seems like a very interesting topic that isn't covered much at all.
Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood. 1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. 🙏
Apostasy law is not based on the holy Qur'an but based on the jurisprudence developed during the early and medieval age of Islam. These types of laws are branded as shariah law has created radical mindsets in Muslim societies, as a result Muslims with different understanding of the Qur'an and religion than the conventional understanding have been suffering persecution in the hands of fellow Muslims.
Welcome to the incredible methodology of Islamic law where the methodology included is extracted by the source material open and with elaborate step by step proofs. This is not your christian or any other religions like secularisms whim based rule makings. I recommend to still your ignorance about the topic by reading a jurisprudence methodology book. There should even free lectures available on UA-cam. For short your premise has a wrong assumption plus your second conclusion doesnt follow logically and is historical inaccurate. Learn before you talk. And be sincere before you learn.
@@l3ll5l I’m muslim. I just don’t belive that Islam kills people who chose not te believe, nor that Islam stones people when they commit zina. They get punished though as stated in the Quran. I read a lot of fiqh books. But you worship old scholars. I bet you can’t understand arabic and you need a translation. I recommend that tou learn arabic and read for yourself. Hadith is not Quran and it can be wrong. Not that rassoul allah (saaws) was wrong but people lied about him. On this particular topic, this man have ISIS ideology.
@@l3ll5l Thank you for your offer to educate me. My above comment on apostasy law is not based on assumptions but based on my considered opinion as a student of the holy Qur'an and theology. As per my understanding apostasy, blasphemy etc are sins not crimes, therefore, punishment for these types of sins are beyond the mandate of a society or state. Only Allah SWT will decide the fates of those sinners on the day of judgment. Capital punishment for crimes other than murder and anarchy are extra Qur'anic, hence, it is not obligatory for Muslims to accept and endorse those punishments.
When you say that liberalism has its own intolerances, your right. But islam has its own intolerances as well. The point that many want to make is that Islam creates its own parallel society within western culture that runs nearly opposite in value structure. How are we supposed to have common rules if one side is playing chess and the other is playing checkers? What you end up with is cultures running into eachother. You know, I wasnt in support of what the rioters did to the mosques in the UK. Im definitely in support of those who peacefully protested. People need to have more open discussions instead of trying to suppress tensions between communities. This is probably going to boil over again if people don't start trying to have an open dialogue with eachother.
Brother Hamza is one of the best in understanding Islamic thoughts in dept truly amazing! Brother Paul did really good, it's always a struggle to interview knowledgeable people in Hamza's scale! So much respect to you both ❤ 👏, learned something anytime I listened to/watched anyone of you, may Allah SWT reward you for your generosity in sharing knowledge, Aamin 😊
Historically, the concept of apostasy has evolved. During the last year of the Muslim Prophet life, actions that would later be termed as apostasy were initially labeled as 'hypocrisy' (nifāq). This indicates that religious interpretations, especially concerning apostasy, have shifted over time. The early 'wars of apostasy' further muddled the understanding of this term by intertwining it with political implications. Mixing religious beliefs with political goals has strongly shaped how Arab-Muslims view apostasy. For instance, the clans, tribes, and individuals mentioned by al-Zamakhsharī were not persecuted merely for renouncing their faith. Instead, the consequences they faced were largely due to the broader political implications of their decisions on the Muslim community. The Qur'an does address apostasy, primarily emphasizing the spiritual consequences of turning away from faith. However, it's crucial to note that the Qur'an does not explicitly prescribe the death penalty for apostasy. The historical narrative paints a more complex picture. For instance, during the reign of Abū Bakr, the treatment of apostates was influenced by the political ramifications of their actions rather than purely their religious choices.
I'm really in haste, but probably next time, and yes, on one side of the spectrum, you're right, I wish I could share more insights on this topic here, however, thanks for the take
In Islam, you can not force a kafir to become a Muslim, which is clear in the Qur'an and Sunnah. However, the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam, said, whoever changes his religion, kill him. The Sahabah, Tabe'een, and At-ba'a Tabe'een, and the leading Scholars, until today, all of them acted upon the Command of the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam. An apostate fuels widespread disorder and confusion. His apostasy prompts others to question their beliefs. He is the seed of imbalance. Hence, it is better to uproot the mischief before it is deep rooted in the ground. For example, if there is a basket of apples wherein there is one rotten apple, what will the owner of the apples do? He will get rid of the rotten apple to preserve the rest of the apples. If he keeps the rotten apple merely because it is an apple, he will be deemed foolish. In the very same manner, an apostate carries rotten beliefs, he must be removed from the basket of the world to preserve the spiritual welfare of others. Anything which is a threat to Eeman will be uprooted. Greetings from Scandinavia.
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992brother we are talking about ideas here. You are comparing spreading ideas to spreading rot in society. Don't you see that this principle can be just as easily applied to the idea of Dawah? Should daiis be killed by non muslims to prevent the spread of Islam?
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992 How do we know the Hadith of whomever changes his religion kill him was a general statement and not a statement related to specific circumstances going on at the time?
Yet there has been no persecution by exmuslims, only persecution of exmuslims. If an ideology kills people who reject it, then logic dictates that it is a poor ideology.
@mozenwrath4u Most Muslim majority countries are run by liberal dictators. Ex-Muslims are presidents, and Muslims are second-class citizens in Muslim majority countries.
With all respect, there's a problem here regarding the equality principle. I'd really love if someone can reply to this: Brother Hamza said that the equality principle was not violated because leaving Islam is not the same case as leaving other religions. Okay, but you justified the actual law by saying: an apostate breaks social cohesion, therefore there can be punishment for that. So, why is breaking social cohesion not equal for Muslims and non-muslims who change their religions?! It's not the same religion. True. But, it's the same fundamental act that you said is justified to be punished (breaking social cohesion)!!
very good question. The law of apostasy is that hamza is presenting about is an exclusively Islamic law. Put another way, this only apply to muslims within Islam as they are the subjects of the Islamic law. It is self defeating to say “well apply apostasy law if a Christian leaves Christianity” its outside the fold of application
Video recommendation : it may take a long time to get this together but I'd love to see the applied law part. I feel too many people can't understand the difficult parts in this video. It's quite a scholarly topic
Excellent defence by our brother Hamza Tzortzis. I spotted one segment, the equality section, in which the liberal position could have been better represented, although it wasn't a strawman per se. Liberals may concede that worldviews are not ontologically equal, but maintain that there should be a kind of pragmatic (limited) legal equality on the basis that liberalism is not the ontological ideology of an ideological group, but a meta-political-ideology that segments of all ideological groups can agree to adhere to in the interests of advancing a kind of peace whereby none of the less dominant ideological groups feel the need to take up arms to defend their survival or their honour or their ability to fairly advance their ideas in the marketplace of ideas or whatever else. (There's plenty to say on this, but I just wanted it to be noted in the interest of bringing it to Hamza's attention so he can strengthen his defence of Islam for the next time he gives this presentation, in sha' Allah).
He did a free webinar during covid pandemic lockdown time. May Allah bless brother Hamza Tzortzis. His book The Devine Reality is very nice. He has always been humble (mashAllah) about his work too. He had mentioned how classical scholars of Islam had already debunked atheism and scholars back in the day didn't even entertain this idea in a debate, bcs of its lack of logic/sense etc. ....Fast forward, here we are. Humans can be weird huh?! ..but Alhumdolillah Allah gave us brother Tzortzis for writing in modern language about this topic.
This is very good. As soon as we hear ‘apostasy’ we tend to imagine harsh punishments however emphasising mercy and showing how this is the sunnah of the Prophet is so good to hear
The impossible state book by wael hallaq explains the point why we cannot apply sharia in a modern nation state and why its impossible very well. Hamza makes the same point in the first part of the video. I recommend to watch paul's playlist of that book or read it urself to understand this particular point in more detail.
I recommend reading Dr. Sherman Jackson's Islamic Secular book (2024) where he pushes back against some of Wael Hallaq's framings and conclusions (though D.r Jackson acknowledges the deficiency and inadequacy of the nation-state).
I made a dua to Allah to make me a better listener and now brother Hamza strongly recommended a book to be a better listener. Alhamdulillah. Allah is always listening.
Muhammad Al Massari invited Hamza to discuss apostasy on his podcast, he didn’t accept. It would have shown him the other side which rejects apostasy (while also being grounded in tradition.)
No, they won't engage with any qualified Muslims who can challenge the teachings of their ideology. Their sect is rather cult like. They do however like engaging.with people who know nothing about Islam but are experts in Physics even though they are not lol.
Great talk with many good insights. Though other commentors have already stated this (and Ustadh Hamza touched on it), there have been examples in Islamic history where not only have apostates not been dealt with, some were out into positions of leadership. The potential of rebellion and allegiance is one thing I wish Ustadh Hamza had gone more into. That is key element that gives more human reality to the shariah.
The Taqeen Insitute article by JB basically argues that, it's super well written Ibn Humām spells this out clearly when he explains, “It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with God.” A foundational textbook in the Shafi’i school of law (the Muhadhdhab of Abū Isḥāq al-Shīrāzī, d. 1083) listed ridda not under criminal punishments (Hudud) but under the chapter on dealing with rebellion (al-Bughāt). Some proof it was considered a treason and political thing It would be impossible for the Qur’an to affirm human beings’ freedom of choice in more than two hundred verses, then punish those who exercise this freedom with such a stern penalty, particularly when they have done nothing to hurt anyone but themselves Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis - Taha Jabir Alalwani
What the man in long beard says hardly makes any sense. Just hollow words with few Arabic jargons. What he says means that Islam was and continues to be a fascist political military ideology in the garb of religion. It has hardly any spiritual message for welfare of humanity or any philosophical depth..
I found this to be a good overall presentation. It covered social conhesion, hikmah of the law and a proper contextual comparison. However, there is one thing it did not cover and that is sentencing. In his defence, Hamza did mention this right at the very end regarding law and applied law. The law is different to sentence. From what I understand and have been led to believe is that a sentence can be relaxed given pervading circumstances. It is not always the case that the Hadd punishment - which literally means limit - must be used - it infers the penal system in Islam is not absolute, but prescribes limits of penalties ascribed to different types of crimes. It does not prevent the judge of sentencing with lesser punishment than the prescribed limit. Hadd.
Yeah it's probably because this was only intended to defend the law itself based on Islamic sources. Since we haven't had a khilaafat in a while and far from our current political world, we haven't experienced it to know the nuances of what the applied law would look like. I feel like an empathetic immersion into what it would be like living in such a world is important, otherwise we only scratch the surface with theoretics
Brother Paul has become a professional interviewer in the english speaking muslim circle, whoever has to discuss something important, they come to Blogging Theology :)
AllahuAkbar....A very robust arguement from Brother Hamza. One of the best thing I ever heard regarding Apostasy Law. My questions were answered. May Allah bless u Brother Paul for bringing so much interesting content. Allah is guiding me through ur channel.
I quote what the Qur'an says regarding this issue, since the Qur'an overrules any other source: لَآ إِكْرَاهَ فِى ٱلدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ ٱلرُّشْدُ مِنَ ٱلْغَىِّ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِٱلطَّـٰغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنۢ بِٱللَّـهِ فَقَدِ ٱسْتَمْسَكَ بِٱلْعُرْوَةِ ٱلْوُثْقَىٰ لَا ٱنفِصَامَ لَهَا وَٱللَّـهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ There is no compulsion in doctrine; sound judgment has become clear from error. So whoso denies idols and believes in God, he has grasped the most firm handhold which has no break; and God is hearing and knowing. (2:256) إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ٱزْدَادُوا۟ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ ٱللَّـهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلَا لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلًۢا Those who heed warning; then deny; then believe (note they weren't killed for apostasy); then deny; then increase in denial: God will not forgive them, nor guide them on a path. (4:137) The punishment of apostasy is not being guided and going to hell after you die. If that is not punishment enough according to the sects...
The issue of defending apostasy law on the basis it provides social cohesion (or the offender is breaking social contract) is that by that logic pagan apostasy like that of the companions (sahabas) is also condemnable.
@@Shakur24434 My aim was not to go through the entire argument in the YT comments section. That's highly impractical. I just wanted to comment on what I thought was the strongest argument. Ipso ergo, no disingenuousness was intended and you need to check your presumptiousness.
@@Shakur24434 It is you're fault as you're making the assumption. You need to remedy that before jumping on someone's throat in the future. Anyways, let's make this constructive. I noticed you didn't bother furnishing any argument you thought was noteworthy. You just conceded that the one argument I cited is deficient on it's own. In that case, what am I missing that bolsters the strength of the argument?
Dear Paul, I noticed my previous comments were removed. I just wanted to express my appreciation for all the hard work you put into your content. I understand that my comments were critical in nature, discussing the premises of the argument made in the video. If my analysis was off or not clear, I’d appreciate any clarification or further refinement. As student of knowledge , I believe constructive criticism is a vital part of expanding our understanding.
There is no such thing as “apostasy laws” in Islam. The Quran clearly allows the freedom to choose whatever religion you want to follow, and Quran forbids forcing religion on people
@@RosewiththornsRWT still the Quran gives anyone the freedom to leave the religion whenever he or she wants. The Hadith that contradict the Quran on this topic of apostasy are all false and come from ikrima son of abujahl
There are 2 contesting ideas: a. Believe refers to believing that God is the only source of truth, therefore the voices of god, the clerics, cannot be questioned b. Believe refers to believing that God is the ever present witness, since there is a witness there is responsibility (Judgement Day) If you want evidence for b, look for the word Imaan/believe in the Quran, nearby you will see 3 things: god, witness, Judgement Day. That is to say, disbeliever refers to people who doesn't believe there is a witness, therefore they will be demanded responsibility, not simply not believing there is a god (the one god). They will do whatever they want, say whatever they want, breaking promises and social expectations.
I propose that the Abrahamic religions start with a creature that is both obedient and rebellious. Therefore they have conflicts and also compromises. And there is a witness. Since there is a witness, there is responsibility. Therefore the Judgement Day. In that order of cause and effect. Instead of hell as a punishment for disobeying god, god is completely neutral, he is just a witness. Nothing you do will benefit Him.
Why do we need any apostasy law anytime in the human history? its the religion that needs to defend itself from critics and skeptics and the not the clerical authority. Only religions with no confidence in itself will have these lame apostasy, blasphemy and heresy laws to make life miserable for the society.
You talk from a comfort zone inside an industrial civilization were you never needed to end someone's life to keep living or defend your family. You don't live in fear of nearby states raiding your hometown and ending everyone's life. Religions are not entities nor states that need to have confidence. What kind of argument is this? Islam is based on reason and a lot of laws that are based on the Quran adapt to the time the people are living in. No law is implemented because of confidence or lack of it, that's not the basis of law. This is nonsense. We are not a secular country that invents laws to persuade people or to make them happy to placate them based on whims. In the time of the Prophet every tribe, village and country surrounding them wanted to end them because they threatened the status quo. They had to flee their home because of persecution. If around and inside your home you had possible traitors who would be capable of betraying everyone, sell their location and endanger your family would you let them get off the hook that easily?
@@CanalDelLibro So would you be okay if United kingdom and other western countries had a similar law where denying the trinity or blaspheming the holy spirit would be punishable by imprisonment or banning the preaching of other religions except christianity and similar laws in countries like north korea where people are imprisoned for practicing religion. I am sure many muslims would not have any conversations about their religion if these laws were implemented so why these double standards.
@@surendirenparthasarathy9087 You, like many people that don't bother to study what they criticize, are mixing modern politics with the core laws of religion. There's zero place in the Quran or Sunnah where what you say is mentioned. There are zero laws that talk about imprisoning for talking bad about Islam. Give evidence , don't talk based on your ignorance. Where does the Quran ban the preaching of religions? Or the Sunnah? Islam since it's conception permitted Muslims, Christians and Jews to live together, with all their problems they still lived together. It was always like this. You just don't read history and all your reasoning is based on media consumption. What fault does Islam have that a country like Saudi imprisons people? What fault does the Bible has that some priests 4buse children? You mix countries behavior with sacred laws. The countries you mention are secular, their laws are not based 100% on God's law, that's why they have stupid laws like the ones you mentioned.
The Qur’an does not approve of apostasy, but at the same time, it makes no provision for the execution of apostates. In fact it could be surprisingly lenient toward those who reneged on Islam, as in Q. al-Baqara 2:109, which urges forgiveness of individuals who depart the Muslim community without any clear expectation of their returning… This more lenient attitude is also attested in precanonical ḥadīth collections…" (Sahner, Christian Martyrs Under Islam, 35-36) When did this "liberal attitude" change? "It did not take long for this liberal attitude to give way to fierce opposition. The change was owed to several factors, among them the experience of the Ridda Wars (ca. 11-12/632-33), when numerous Arab tribes ‘apostatized’ following Muḥammad’s death, refusing to pay taxes to his successor, Abū Bakr. In the wake of this tumult, a strong consensus emerged that apostasy was inadmissible and should be punished by d
I'm very disappointed. I thought this channel was about learning different Islamic viewpoints. Instead, it has become a mouthpiece of wahabism. At least bring on guests with whom you disagree to allow for a vigrous debate given how contentious this issue is.
@@BloggingTheology Here is the problem Paul we are stuck in these 4 schools and we made them the go to every time we have an issue. The book has answered everything a generation might face and we just can't read with our own eyes we instead rely on historic literature (which i respect) but we far advanced in knowledge and we can find our own solution without relying on the 4 schools. There is no Apostasy in the Book of Allah.
@@Sdplaya01 i didn't say we need a new one i said we don't need one at all. When prophet (pbuh) was alive was there any madhab ? I am just saying that these madahib are causing more harm then good as it is dividing the community. Of course it is fault as we make the madhab holy then the book itself and without a madhab we are bunch of dump people who are not able to understand a message sent to them.
The host is, as always, gracious and well-informed, the guest is obviously intelligent and articulate, BUT the effort or inclination to stifle, indeed to punish, personal or public mockery of the prophet or Allah or Islam does not demonstrate courage but rather weakness. A long time ago, there was a highly controversial exhibit in an American museum which required people to step on the Stars and Stripes, draped on the floor, if they wanted to approach and experience the exhibit. A short letter to the editor of a local newspaper made the perfect response to the flood of criticism and condemnation, culminating in "patriotic" demands that the exhibit be removed. "The only flag worth fighting for is one you're free to step on."
Ibn Humam writes: It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with Allah. This punishment is specifically for those who wage war and this is for the man.For this reason, the Prophet prohibited killing women because they do not fight. Source: Fath ul-Qadeer volume 6 page number 68
Haven't watched the video yet (though I intend to) but I would recommend the book "Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis" by Taha Jabir Al-Alwani. He's a Sunni Muslim scholar (graduated from Al-Azhar) and his book demonstrates fairly well that apostasy laws are not really "part of the religion" per se. The apostasy rulings in the 4 schools were just responses to various situations the Muslims found themselves in at certain points in history. I went into the book somewhat skeptical, but he made a decent case.
There are no apostasy laws in Islam. To clarify this point, we must first differentiate between Hadith and Tradition. The hadith, no matter what anyone says, is a set of stories told by people who claim the hadiths are from the Prophet P.B.U.H. Hadiths have to be authenticated and can only be authenticated if the Quran endorses them. Only those who know the Quran well enough can determine whether a hadith is authentic. The Quran is otherwise known as "FORQAN" which means "Criterion". If one knows the Quran well enough, then one knows the law, and in that case, there is no point in the hadith and so a hadith can at best be a suggestion or note to point out something about a verse. A hadith cannot be taken as law and equal to the Quran and draw jurisdiction out of it. A tradition, however, is what has been passed down from generation to generation and the Quranic revelation forms the base of it, and we use the example of the prophet to clarify some points within that Quranic revelation. The Prophet P.B.U.H Did Not receive two sets of revelations, one public and one private. The Prophet only received one Quran. Tradition is the interpretation of the prophet of a certain verse that we all have access to and for it to be accepted, there must be consensus about it among all scholars. A good example of a Tradition is the daily prayer. We are instructed to pray, and we are told about the times of prayer and about the ablutions we must perform for the prayer, but we refer to the Tradition of the Prophet P.B.U.H to know how many rak'as to say for each prayer and what should be said. The Tradition of the Prophet is very limited and again the origin of it must be in the Quran. Regarding apostasy laws, there are none. If we believe in the Quran and the following verse 2:256 then we know that every soul is free to choose his/her faith and live by it free from persecution. In the Quran 10:108, the prophet is instructed to tell people that he is not " a keeper over people". Furthermore, the prophet P.B.U.H in 3:103, 29:18, and many more tell us that the prophet did not persecute anyone for not accepting Islam and there is no record of anybody being persecuted for leaving Islam. The apostasy laws appear in some sects, which are minority sects and are afraid of losing their relatively small group of followers, their assertions are certainly un-Islamic and unlawful. If we find a hadith that indicates otherwise, it is false and is contrary to God's law. There is no apostasy law in the Quran and we do not have an example of the prophet persecuting anyone for his regression.
at 45:32 "We would argue that we have the most coherent understanding of society because it is based on ____ sociological studies..." Whose sociological studies was being referred to there? didn't catch that.
Hadith like Sahih al-bukhari 1883 Sunan an-nasa’i 4048 prove my point
Imam al-buti rh said if he doesn’t fight us we don’t kill him in his book al-jihad Page number 212 where he defines to cases of apostasy the non fighter is treated as a normal kaffir where he isn’t killed also not forced to Islam (2:256) The prophet never forced anyone to follow his religion like ibn al-Qayim said, al-Shāfī’ī adds some people have believed then disbelieved but the prophet didn’t kill them the prophet never killed any apostate
WELL DONE !! If there is just ONE OTHER HADITH that said that a NORMAL PEACEFUL apostate DID NOT fight back or cause trouble and he was not KILLED or FORCED into Islam, ( in other word, he was able to live his live peacefully after that )........... then we MUST GO BACK to the QURAN again ( 2:256 )..........and there WE HAVE IT !!!
اللَّهُمَّ أَعِنِّيْ عَلَى ذِكْرِكَ وَشُكْرِكَ وَحُسْنِ عِبَادَتِكَ Allahumma a inni Ala Zikrik Wa Shukrika Wa Husni Ibadatika O Allah, help me remember You, to be grateful to You, and to worship You,
It is sunnah to recite {Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus} 3 times after the Witr prayer, while elongating the words in the third time. سُبْحَانَ الْمَلِكِ الْقُدُّوسِ Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus, Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus, Subhaanal-Malikil-Qudduuuuuuuus (or Subhaaaaanal-Malikil-Quddus). Sunan an-Nasa’i 1729
Whoever asks Allah (s.w.t) Paradise three times, Paradise says: 'O Allah, admit him into Paradise', and whoever seeks refuge from the Fire three times, the Fire says: 'O Allah, save him from the Fire.'" اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ الْجَنَّةَ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنَ النَّارِ
There are no apostasy laws in Islam. Apostasy law is a man made law because I am myself a former apostate who was saved by Allah S.W.T from these extremists and he guided me to his final message Alhamdulillah and today I do great Dawah and most people love the beautiful Islam I represent.
@BloggingTheology brother Hamza is a dishonest person because he lied to me twice on live streams. I disagreed with him about a fabricated Hadithe, and he asked me to call him on his phone and talk to him, but he never responded to me on the phone or email because he new he can't defend that fabricated Hadithe about killing all lizards. The second time again, when I succeed to talk to him on a live stream, again he removed me. I wrote that I am a former apostate, but Alhamdulillah, I wasn't killed by these extremists, and Allah S.W.T. guided me to his beautiful message. If they are correct and they have the right knowledge in Islam, then why do all of them run away from debating me? I have many videos where I try to debate them, but they remove me immediately. Could you please arrange a debate between me and Hamza?
@@BloggingTheology @BloggingTheology brother Hamza is a dishonest person because he lied to me twice on live streams. I disagreed with him about a fabricated Hadithe, and he asked me to call him on his phone and talk to him, but he never responded to me on the phone or email because he new he can't defend that fabricated Hadithe about killing all lizards. The second time again, when I succeed to talk to him on a live stream, again he removed me. I wrote that I am a former apostate, but Alhamdulillah, I wasn't killed by these extremists, and Allah S.W.T. guided me to his beautiful message. If they are correct and they have the right knowledge in Islam, then why do all of them run away from debating me? I have many videos where I try to debate them, but they remove me immediately. Could you please arrange a debate between me and Hamza?
@@BloggingTheology I divide my message in two. @BloggingTheology brother Hamza is a dishonest person because he lied to me twice on live streams. I disagreed with him about a fabricated Hadithe, and he asked me to call him on his phone and talk to him, but he never responded to me on the phone or email because he new he can't defend that fabricated Hadithe about killing all lizards.
It should be ban, people should have the right to choose to believe or not. If you force them to stay in a religion then they dont actual believe in it and it only makes them a hypocrite. And yes i am a Muslim but i also realized not everything the prophet or the companions did more than a thousand years ago needs to be followed. It was a different times and circumstances.
I hope no new convert listens to this video. This is wrong on so many levels. It goes against the word of god in the Quran about Apostasy. You have no courage, You simply agree with the majority of old scholars, where’s the courage in that?
No ridda law. Just read the Quran. Punishmnet is in teh afterlife. Yes at the time of war special laws can be adopted, but not at the time of peace. Traditional scholars got many things wrong.
Says TikTok-cake lacking even the basic grammatical skills to write a few sentences- but oh watch out the traditional Ulama (ra) had it wrong. Beat it twerp!
What is your thoughts on Mosaic law vs The Code of Hammurabi. A lot of people are saying Old Testament law was copied from The Code of Hammurabi. Please do a reading on this. Thank you
@graysonbrockk Grayson, you had questions about apostasy. This video with Hamza Tzortzis should clarify many topics. It's broad. Much broader than liberalised Muslims might imply. Paul William's Blogging Theology is a gem of information.
When apostasy continues to persist in disbelief and increases in it, they are moving away from success and guidance towards the right path. as this Quranic verse indicates " Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way. " Quran 4 : 137
Individualism vs. Islamic cohesion, basically. But what about *competing forms of cohesion*? How would they ever form if not through a small number of discrete individuals, at least initially? But then, this is a defense of Islam, first. It's secondly a broader critique of atomization vs. communitarianism, a thoroughly secular conversation. So I'm essentially missing the point... If you truly, truly believe that apostates are going to hell, then yes, you'd be remiss not so spare them that. But of course that just looks like an excuse to hold someone hostage if they don't buy one's particular *way* of claiming one will go to hell without correcting course, even putting aside an *actual* rejection of Islam, and which may just be an interpretive dispute. (I'm actually curious how many people accused of leaving Islam would themselves agree that's what they're doing, contra just being Islamic in their own way.)
Why i love your channel is because i get so many exciting modern researched books on Islam by young Erudite modern Muslim scholars who either scientifically updates past scholarly works of those genius past scholars or throw more light on their writings which authenticated the truth of Islam as the final religion sent to Mankind and the Djinn.
This is so well put and completely nails the uniqueness of Paul's channel allahumma barik!
The problem with these UA-cam channels is that they promote any topic even when they don’t believe in it themselves. I very much doubt that Paul is a Salafi who believes in apostasy laws
What genius scholars are you babbling about. If the Salafi so called “scholars” of the past were geniuses then the Islamic world wouldn’t be in the dark ages
It’s these supposed “genius” Salafis scholars and imams that destroyed the golden age of Islam that was created by the philosophers like ibn Sina
All that these genius scholars and people like hamza tzortis bring you is more darkness and distort the Quran with false Hadith on apostasy that directly contradict the Quran
This channel is like an islamic library Ma shaa Allah.
One hundred percent! You completely get lost in thought here, not knowing how many hours you spent listening/watching because you are so amazed and intellectually nourished
The channel is like a click bait for naive uneducated Salafis
What a wonderful saying " What is the point of being an intellectual if you are going to be a coward " 👍
Top level intellectalism is common sense with courage
FACTS
He should be a president
Actually Intellectualism doesn’t teach you to be bold rather thoughtful otherwise all the army generals would have been intellectuals. 🤔
@@Saa42808 it is false assumption. Courage can have many forms in different fields. TRUE COURAGE IS SAYING TRUTH When needed. IT IS FIght for truth when needed.
Salam from Penang. Super! Thanks for this great session. Need more from Hamza T of different topics...
wa alaikum assalam
Paul, I just want to say I love you, may Allah protect you and grow you and your work.❤
First met Hamza when had just taken his Shahada, he was always a very nice person, May Allah Bless him
Wow. When was that?!
Can’t believe Hamza is just 45, he has the wisdom of a 70 or 80 year old.
He is 44.
I'm 70 but I don't feel like I possess much wisdom. But I can keep hoping.
Respectfully
@@johnbrzykcy3076we Humans need to stop associating Great Wisdom with Old age, Wisdom is taught and can be taught to anyone of Any age. We must stray away from this weak thinking!
may Allah bless us all with more Wisdom ❤️
@@VelociJX Do you have wisdom? Do you want wisdom?
@@VelociJX I actually tend to agree with you. Because some young people seem to have a lot of wisdom. And another good example, although not necessarily pertaining to age, was Jesus Christ Himself. His wisdom was remarkable.
By the way, I should mention that I'm not Muslim. I'm a simple Christian believer.
My lack of wisdom is probably influenced by heredity and environment. I've had cancer twice and it seems like my brain cells are deteriorating.
So I'm wondering if I'd have the intellectual ability to understand the Quran ? ( Especially since I don't know Arabic language ). Do you need wisdom to understand the Quran?
Anyhow, I appreciate your honesty. Respectfully..
Salaams, brother Paul, and thank you ❤ Another amazing talk. Sincere thanks for all your guidance. I will be going to London soon to take my Shahada with my muslim family members. I will always remember you in my dua. I feel so happy ❤
wa alaikum assalam that is wonderful alhamdulilah!
@@BloggingTheology Thank you 😊 🙏
None of the ayats you mention are defining concepts of Islam. One can enter a garden and be impressed by the beauty around, or one can enter it and with a magnifying glass look for the worms and the beasties in it. @komrij1944
@@komrij1944 We are not here to waste time, friend.
If you are serious and want to learn and understand that is something else.
If we answer your questions, whatever they are, are you going to embrace Islam, if not, don't waste our time.
Greetings from Scandinavia.
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992why this condition to accept Islam? Will you leave Islam if you can't answer the questions?
Another great video Paul, great dedication to put out these long-length quality videos.
poor paul is sick and still did that: May allah give u a long life and health
I am much better now alhamdulillah
@@BloggingTheology
@@BloggingTheologyAlhumdullilah
we love you guys for the sake of Allah ❤
Brother Paul I always look forward to your videos. Thanks for providing us with great videos.
Glad you like them!
@@BloggingTheologyThanks for making this video Paul
I did ask you a while back
Fantastic episode with an amazing guest
The quality of their discourse is outstanding, showcasing exceptional intelligence and depth. Our precious brother Paul brings the best of the best to us. Jazak Allahu khair Hamza Tzortzis and Paul.
Jazakallah.As usual a very thought provoking discussion.Again May Allah reward you immensely brother Paul
Very informative video. I understand this law much better! Jazak Allah.
Allah Bless you Paul and Hamza
It's always a pleasure seeing ustadh Hamza
I occasionally listen to Br Hamza and can't help to notice the excellent use of gestures in explanation. Brilliant!!
Such a robust argument, brother Hamza is a lovely gem for the Ummah. I'd also love to see you invite the brother mentioned to discuss Islamic law vs applied Islamic law, it seems like a very interesting topic that isn't covered much at all.
May Allah Bless and Reward Both of you in this Life and in the Hereafter.
Aameen
@ZakManga Unfortunately, Allah wants non-believers to inherit the hellfire. He is the enemy of unbelievers. He doesn't love them.
I just ordered the book “you’re not listening”. Can’t wait to read it. JazakAllaahu khair. May Allaah preserve you both.
Mash'Allah an excellent talk on an important topic, by Hamza Tzortzis.
May Allah reward you for your efforts.
Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood. 1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. 🙏
Apostasy law is not based on the holy Qur'an but based on the jurisprudence developed during the early and medieval age of Islam.
These types of laws are branded as shariah law has created radical mindsets in Muslim societies, as a result Muslims with different understanding of the Qur'an and religion than the conventional understanding have been suffering persecution in the hands of fellow Muslims.
I totally agree! He talks about courage but he is just bringing the extreme view of Islam.
💯
Welcome to the incredible methodology of Islamic law where the methodology included is extracted by the source material open and with elaborate step by step proofs. This is not your christian or any other religions like secularisms whim based rule makings. I recommend to still your ignorance about the topic by reading a jurisprudence methodology book. There should even free lectures available on UA-cam.
For short your premise has a wrong assumption plus your second conclusion doesnt follow logically and is historical inaccurate. Learn before you talk. And be sincere before you learn.
@@l3ll5l I’m muslim. I just don’t belive that Islam kills people who chose not te believe, nor that Islam stones people when they commit zina. They get punished though as stated in the Quran. I read a lot of fiqh books. But you worship old scholars. I bet you can’t understand arabic and you need a translation. I recommend that tou learn arabic and read for yourself. Hadith is not Quran and it can be wrong. Not that rassoul allah (saaws) was wrong but people lied about him. On this particular topic, this man have ISIS ideology.
@@l3ll5l
Thank you for your offer to educate me.
My above comment on apostasy law is not based on assumptions but based on my considered opinion as a student of the holy Qur'an and theology.
As per my understanding apostasy, blasphemy etc are sins not crimes, therefore, punishment for these types of sins are beyond the mandate of a society or state. Only Allah SWT will decide the fates of those sinners on the day of judgment.
Capital punishment for crimes other than murder and anarchy are extra Qur'anic, hence, it is not obligatory for Muslims to accept and endorse those punishments.
Alhamdulillah great to see hamza and yourself sir Paul jazak Allahu khair. Great works.
When you say that liberalism has its own intolerances, your right. But islam has its own intolerances as well. The point that many want to make is that Islam creates its own parallel society within western culture that runs nearly opposite in value structure. How are we supposed to have common rules if one side is playing chess and the other is playing checkers?
What you end up with is cultures running into eachother. You know, I wasnt in support of what the rioters did to the mosques in the UK. Im definitely in support of those who peacefully protested. People need to have more open discussions instead of trying to suppress tensions between communities. This is probably going to boil over again if people don't start trying to have an open dialogue with eachother.
2 men of Integrity. May Allah reward you both for all the good that you do.
I don’t think you understand what the word integrity means
what?
Brother Hamza is one of the best in understanding Islamic thoughts in dept truly amazing!
Brother Paul did really good, it's always a struggle to interview knowledgeable people in Hamza's scale! So much respect to you both ❤ 👏, learned something anytime I listened to/watched anyone of you, may Allah SWT reward you for your generosity in sharing knowledge, Aamin 😊
Historically, the concept of apostasy has evolved. During the last year of the Muslim Prophet life, actions that would later be termed as apostasy were initially labeled as 'hypocrisy' (nifāq). This indicates that religious interpretations, especially concerning apostasy, have shifted over time.
The early 'wars of apostasy' further muddled the understanding of this term by intertwining it with political implications. Mixing religious beliefs with political goals has strongly shaped how Arab-Muslims view apostasy. For instance, the clans, tribes, and individuals mentioned by al-Zamakhsharī were not persecuted merely for renouncing their faith. Instead, the consequences they faced were largely due to the broader political implications of their decisions on the Muslim community.
The Qur'an does address apostasy, primarily emphasizing the spiritual consequences of turning away from faith. However, it's crucial to note that the Qur'an does not explicitly prescribe the death penalty for apostasy. The historical narrative paints a more complex picture. For instance, during the reign of Abū Bakr, the treatment of apostates was influenced by the political ramifications of their actions rather than purely their religious choices.
I'm really in haste, but probably next time, and yes, on one side of the spectrum, you're right, I wish I could share more insights on this topic here, however, thanks for the take
In Islam, you can not force a kafir to become a Muslim, which is clear in the Qur'an and Sunnah.
However, the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam, said, whoever changes his religion, kill him.
The Sahabah, Tabe'een, and At-ba'a Tabe'een, and the leading Scholars, until today, all of them acted upon the Command of the Prophet Muhammed, salalahu aleyhi wa salam.
An apostate fuels widespread disorder and confusion. His apostasy prompts others to question their beliefs. He is the seed of imbalance. Hence, it is better to uproot the mischief before it is deep rooted in the ground. For example, if there is a basket of apples wherein there is one rotten apple, what will the owner of the apples do? He will get rid of the rotten apple to preserve the rest of the apples. If he keeps the rotten apple merely because it is an apple, he will be deemed foolish. In the very same manner, an apostate carries rotten beliefs, he must be removed from the basket of the world to preserve the spiritual welfare of others. Anything which is a threat to Eeman will be uprooted.
Greetings from Scandinavia.
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992brother we are talking about ideas here. You are comparing spreading ideas to spreading rot in society. Don't you see that this principle can be just as easily applied to the idea of Dawah? Should daiis be killed by non muslims to prevent the spread of Islam?
@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992 How do we know the Hadith of whomever changes his religion kill him was a general statement and not a statement related to specific circumstances going on at the time?
@@simplyhuman2213Because that's how thousands of scholars understood it for thousands of years.
I stopped feeling uncomfortable about apostasy law in Islam after seeing how hate-filled all online murtads are. Islam is right about apostasy 💪
Yet there has been no persecution by exmuslims, only persecution of exmuslims. If an ideology kills people who reject it, then logic dictates that it is a poor ideology.
@mozenwrath4u Most Muslim majority countries are run by liberal dictators. Ex-Muslims are presidents, and Muslims are second-class citizens in Muslim majority countries.
@@swgg2887so u think they should have their lives ended cuz they hurt your feelings
No wonder you think Islam is true
So if someone converts to islam from Other religion would it be justified to kill them
What if all religions have their own laws for killing apostate, we enter into zombie world 🤦
Spot on as always. Many thanks for you Paul and Hamza, the author of the.great book, The Divine Love".
This is an amazing lecture. Jazakumullahu khair Hamza and Paul.
Great presentation from brother Hamza❤
With all respect, there's a problem here regarding the equality principle. I'd really love if someone can reply to this:
Brother Hamza said that the equality principle was not violated because leaving Islam is not the same case as leaving other religions.
Okay, but you justified the actual law by saying: an apostate breaks social cohesion, therefore there can be punishment for that.
So, why is breaking social cohesion not equal for Muslims and non-muslims who change their religions?!
It's not the same religion. True. But, it's the same fundamental act that you said is justified to be punished (breaking social cohesion)!!
very good question. The law of apostasy is that hamza is presenting about is an exclusively Islamic law. Put another way, this only apply to muslims within Islam as they are the subjects of the Islamic law. It is self defeating to say “well apply apostasy law if a Christian leaves Christianity” its outside the fold of application
Video recommendation : it may take a long time to get this together but I'd love to see the applied law part. I feel too many people can't understand the difficult parts in this video. It's quite a scholarly topic
Paul is a great man. And he always able to choose the best guests.
Excellent defence by our brother Hamza Tzortzis. I spotted one segment, the equality section, in which the liberal position could have been better represented, although it wasn't a strawman per se.
Liberals may concede that worldviews are not ontologically equal, but maintain that there should be a kind of pragmatic (limited) legal equality on the basis that liberalism is not the ontological ideology of an ideological group, but a meta-political-ideology that segments of all ideological groups can agree to adhere to in the interests of advancing a kind of peace whereby none of the less dominant ideological groups feel the need to take up arms to defend their survival or their honour or their ability to fairly advance their ideas in the marketplace of ideas or whatever else.
(There's plenty to say on this, but I just wanted it to be noted in the interest of bringing it to Hamza's attention so he can strengthen his defence of Islam for the next time he gives this presentation, in sha' Allah).
Great point
He did a free webinar during covid pandemic lockdown time. May Allah bless brother Hamza Tzortzis. His book The Devine Reality is very nice. He has always been humble (mashAllah) about his work too. He had mentioned how classical scholars of Islam had already debunked atheism and scholars back in the day didn't even entertain this idea in a debate, bcs of its lack of logic/sense etc. ....Fast forward, here we are. Humans can be weird huh?! ..but Alhumdolillah Allah gave us brother Tzortzis for writing in modern language about this topic.
The point that Hamza made on minute 1:05:32 is excellent.
This is very good. As soon as we hear ‘apostasy’ we tend to imagine harsh punishments however emphasising mercy and showing how this is the sunnah of the Prophet is so good to hear
The impossible state book by wael hallaq explains the point why we cannot apply sharia in a modern nation state and why its impossible very well. Hamza makes the same point in the first part of the video. I recommend to watch paul's playlist of that book or read it urself to understand this particular point in more detail.
Hmm I wonder if the radicals might slaughter for the wrong interpretation of the holy book
I recommend reading Dr. Sherman Jackson's Islamic Secular book (2024) where he pushes back against some of Wael Hallaq's framings and conclusions (though D.r Jackson acknowledges the deficiency and inadequacy of the nation-state).
@@Reewnat Thanks , it looks like an interesting read I'll definitely read it.
I made a dua to Allah to make me a better listener and now brother Hamza strongly recommended a book to be a better listener. Alhamdulillah. Allah is always listening.
إنه من الرائع أن نشهد الأخ حمزة تزورتزس على قناتك المحترمة
جزاكم الله خيرا عن سائر المسلمين
Who else would love to see a discussion between Jordan Peterson and Hamza Tzortzis?
Would be a total waste of Hamza's time. 😂
Thank you Brothers❤ may Allah rewards you:)
Wonderful episode!! we need more of brother Hamza's videos !
Jazaakumullaahu khairan brother Paul
10:08, 11:45
13:44
H18:55
25:22
34:37
36:30
1 48:08, 49:08, 49:50
2 1:00:48, 1:03:02
Contention 1:04:32, 1:07:48
Muhammad Al Massari invited Hamza to discuss apostasy on his podcast, he didn’t accept. It would have shown him the other side which rejects apostasy (while also being grounded in tradition.)
No, they won't engage with any qualified Muslims who can challenge the teachings of their ideology. Their sect is rather cult like. They do however like engaging.with people who know nothing about Islam but are experts in Physics even though they are not lol.
Great talk with many good insights. Though other commentors have already stated this (and Ustadh Hamza touched on it), there have been examples in Islamic history where not only have apostates not been dealt with, some were out into positions of leadership. The potential of rebellion and allegiance is one thing I wish Ustadh Hamza had gone more into. That is key element that gives more human reality to the shariah.
The Taqeen Insitute article by JB basically argues that, it's super well written
Ibn Humām spells this out clearly when he explains, “It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with God.”
A foundational textbook in the Shafi’i school of law (the Muhadhdhab of Abū Isḥāq al-Shīrāzī, d. 1083) listed ridda not under criminal punishments (Hudud) but under the chapter on dealing with rebellion (al-Bughāt).
Some proof it was considered a treason and political thing
It would be impossible for the Qur’an to affirm human beings’ freedom of choice in more than two hundred verses, then punish those who exercise this freedom with such a stern penalty, particularly when they have done nothing to hurt anyone but themselves
Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis - Taha Jabir Alalwani
Correct
@@abdullahobaid1463 I agree in this kind of analysis of Islamic history.
@@PedroJrArceno Read my replies too, I posted more evidences
What the man in long beard says hardly makes any sense. Just hollow words with few Arabic jargons. What he says means that Islam was and continues to be a fascist political military ideology in the garb of religion. It has hardly any spiritual message for welfare of humanity or any philosophical depth..
I found this to be a good overall presentation. It covered social conhesion, hikmah of the law and a proper contextual comparison. However, there is one thing it did not cover and that is sentencing. In his defence, Hamza did mention this right at the very end regarding law and applied law.
The law is different to sentence. From what I understand and have been led to believe is that a sentence can be relaxed given pervading circumstances. It is not always the case that the Hadd punishment - which literally means limit - must be used - it infers the penal system in Islam is not absolute, but prescribes limits of penalties ascribed to different types of crimes. It does not prevent the judge of sentencing with lesser punishment than the prescribed limit. Hadd.
Yeah it's probably because this was only intended to defend the law itself based on Islamic sources. Since we haven't had a khilaafat in a while and far from our current political world, we haven't experienced it to know the nuances of what the applied law would look like. I feel like an empathetic immersion into what it would be like living in such a world is important, otherwise we only scratch the surface with theoretics
Brother Paul has become a professional interviewer in the english speaking muslim circle, whoever has to discuss something important, they come to Blogging Theology :)
MashAllah... Dawah deserves nothing but support..
This is an advert against Islam. It does a disservice to Palestinians.
Apostasy laws were primitive even in the seventh century.
AllahuAkbar....A very robust arguement from Brother Hamza. One of the best thing I ever heard regarding Apostasy Law. My questions were answered. May Allah bless u Brother Paul for bringing so much interesting content. Allah is guiding me through ur channel.
I quote what the Qur'an says regarding this issue, since the Qur'an overrules any other source:
لَآ إِكْرَاهَ فِى ٱلدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ ٱلرُّشْدُ مِنَ ٱلْغَىِّ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِٱلطَّـٰغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنۢ بِٱللَّـهِ فَقَدِ ٱسْتَمْسَكَ بِٱلْعُرْوَةِ ٱلْوُثْقَىٰ لَا ٱنفِصَامَ لَهَا وَٱللَّـهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ
There is no compulsion in doctrine; sound judgment has become clear from error. So whoso denies idols and believes in God, he has grasped the most firm handhold which has no break; and God is hearing and knowing.
(2:256)
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ءَامَنُوا۟ ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا۟ ثُمَّ ٱزْدَادُوا۟ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ ٱللَّـهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلَا لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلًۢا
Those who heed warning; then deny; then believe (note they weren't killed for apostasy); then deny; then increase in denial: God will not forgive them, nor guide them on a path.
(4:137)
The punishment of apostasy is not being guided and going to hell after you die.
If that is not punishment enough according to the sects...
53:50 If this was in a lecture hall, you'd receive a standing ovation for this statement. Allahumma barik. 😂
Thanks to Allah and Paul for hosting hamzah Asadullah may Allah make him worthy of the title.
Why was this video not recommended to me by UA-cam? I would have clicked on it instantly
great discussion ❤❤
The issue of defending apostasy law on the basis it provides social cohesion (or the offender is breaking social contract) is that by that logic pagan apostasy like that of the companions (sahabas) is also condemnable.
@@Shakur24434 My aim was not to go through the entire argument in the YT comments section. That's highly impractical. I just wanted to comment on what I thought was the strongest argument. Ipso ergo, no disingenuousness was intended and you need to check your presumptiousness.
@@Shakur24434 It is you're fault as you're making the assumption. You need to remedy that before jumping on someone's throat in the future. Anyways, let's make this constructive. I noticed you didn't bother furnishing any argument you thought was noteworthy. You just conceded that the one argument I cited is deficient on it's own. In that case, what am I missing that bolsters the strength of the argument?
Dear Paul,
I noticed my previous comments were removed. I just wanted to express my appreciation for all the hard work you put into your content.
I understand that my comments were critical in nature, discussing the premises of the argument made in the video. If my analysis was off or not clear, I’d appreciate any clarification or further refinement. As student of knowledge , I believe constructive criticism is a vital part of expanding our understanding.
it was probably auto delete
@@Synocra Noted; Thanks
Nice! Comments are deleted!! Here goes the freedom of speech. I didn't expect from Br. Paul.
There is no such thing as “apostasy laws” in Islam.
The Quran clearly allows the freedom to choose whatever religion you want to follow, and Quran forbids forcing religion on people
Islam is a nuanced way of life. There are rules that apply etc. You're wrong in making such a blanket statement.
@@RosewiththornsRWT still the Quran gives anyone the freedom to leave the religion whenever he or she wants. The Hadith that contradict the Quran on this topic of apostasy are all false and come from ikrima son of abujahl
@@RosewiththornsRWT it’s the Quran that gave a blanket statement on the topic of apostasy and the freedom of religion
@@RosewiththornsRWT there is no nuance in the Quran on apostasy.
It’s very clear “there is no compulsion in religion”
I believe you found one of the many contradictions in the Quran. 8:38,39
Love your channel Paul..one thing I would suggest is to maybe have more women Islamic scholars on your show.
There are 2 contesting ideas:
a. Believe refers to believing that God is the only source of truth, therefore the voices of god, the clerics, cannot be questioned
b. Believe refers to believing that God is the ever present witness, since there is a witness there is responsibility (Judgement Day)
If you want evidence for b, look for the word Imaan/believe in the Quran, nearby you will see 3 things: god, witness, Judgement Day.
That is to say, disbeliever refers to people who doesn't believe there is a witness, therefore they will be demanded responsibility, not simply not believing there is a god (the one god).
They will do whatever they want, say whatever they want, breaking promises and social expectations.
I propose that the Abrahamic religions start with a creature that is both obedient and rebellious.
Therefore they have conflicts and also compromises.
And there is a witness.
Since there is a witness, there is responsibility.
Therefore the Judgement Day.
In that order of cause and effect.
Instead of hell as a punishment for disobeying god, god is completely neutral, he is just a witness.
Nothing you do will benefit Him.
Similar to other laws 1:14:02
Influence: 1:15:23
3 1:20:08
May Allah give you more power Brothers
Why do we need any apostasy law anytime in the human history?
its the religion that needs to defend itself from critics and skeptics and the not the clerical authority.
Only religions with no confidence in itself will have these lame apostasy, blasphemy and heresy laws to make life miserable for the society.
You talk from a comfort zone inside an industrial civilization were you never needed to end someone's life to keep living or defend your family. You don't live in fear of nearby states raiding your hometown and ending everyone's life.
Religions are not entities nor states that need to have confidence. What kind of argument is this? Islam is based on reason and a lot of laws that are based on the Quran adapt to the time the people are living in. No law is implemented because of confidence or lack of it, that's not the basis of law. This is nonsense. We are not a secular country that invents laws to persuade people or to make them happy to placate them based on whims.
In the time of the Prophet every tribe, village and country surrounding them wanted to end them because they threatened the status quo. They had to flee their home because of persecution. If around and inside your home you had possible traitors who would be capable of betraying everyone, sell their location and endanger your family would you let them get off the hook that easily?
@@CanalDelLibro So would you be okay if United kingdom and other western countries had a similar law where denying the trinity or blaspheming the holy spirit would be punishable by imprisonment or banning the preaching of other religions except christianity and similar laws in countries like north korea where people are imprisoned for practicing religion. I am sure many muslims would not have any conversations about their religion if these laws were implemented so why these double standards.
@@surendirenparthasarathy9087 You, like many people that don't bother to study what they criticize, are mixing modern politics with the core laws of religion.
There's zero place in the Quran or Sunnah where what you say is mentioned. There are zero laws that talk about imprisoning for talking bad about Islam. Give evidence , don't talk based on your ignorance.
Where does the Quran ban the preaching of religions? Or the Sunnah?
Islam since it's conception permitted Muslims, Christians and Jews to live together, with all their problems they still lived together. It was always like this. You just don't read history and all your reasoning is based on media consumption.
What fault does Islam have that a country like Saudi imprisons people? What fault does the Bible has that some priests 4buse children?
You mix countries behavior with sacred laws.
The countries you mention are secular, their laws are not based 100% on God's law, that's why they have stupid laws like the ones you mentioned.
Can we get more content and material on breaking down secularism, liberalism, no harms principle, etc? This is great content
The Qur’an does not approve of apostasy, but at the same time, it makes no provision for the execution of apostates. In fact it could be surprisingly lenient toward those who reneged on Islam, as in Q. al-Baqara 2:109, which urges forgiveness of individuals who depart the Muslim community without any clear expectation of their returning… This more lenient attitude is also attested in precanonical ḥadīth collections…" (Sahner, Christian Martyrs Under Islam, 35-36) When did this "liberal attitude" change? "It did not take long for this liberal attitude to give way to fierce opposition. The change was owed to several factors, among them the experience of the Ridda Wars (ca. 11-12/632-33), when numerous Arab tribes ‘apostatized’ following Muḥammad’s death, refusing to pay taxes to his successor, Abū Bakr. In the wake of this tumult, a strong consensus emerged that apostasy was inadmissible and should be punished by d
I'm very disappointed. I thought this channel was about learning different Islamic viewpoints. Instead, it has become a mouthpiece of wahabism. At least bring on guests with whom you disagree to allow for a vigrous debate given how contentious this issue is.
Hamza is defending the normative Islamic position as articulated by the 4 schools: the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali madhhabs.
@@BloggingTheology Here is the problem Paul we are stuck in these 4 schools and we made them the go to every time we have an issue. The book has answered everything a generation might face and we just can't read with our own eyes we instead rely on historic literature (which i respect) but we far advanced in knowledge and we can find our own solution without relying on the 4 schools. There is no Apostasy in the Book of Allah.
@@rabiibrahimi what is the need for a new Madhab, when the old is sufficient?
@@Sdplaya01 i didn't say we need a new one i said we don't need one at all. When prophet (pbuh) was alive was there any madhab ? I am just saying that these madahib are causing more harm then good as it is dividing the community. Of course it is fault as we make the madhab holy then the book itself and without a madhab we are bunch of dump people who are not able to understand a message sent to them.
@@Sdplaya01 who said we need a new one. Those madahib became so sacred even more than the Book itself. We need to read the Book with our own eyes.
A hallmark of totalitarian systems is that you are not allowed to express yourself if you have a deviant opinion.
Yep. That's why I hate secularism so much.
We dont care. Mind your own business
@@javidseyadahmed6917
"We dont care."
I know, this is why Islam will go down the gutter more quickly than you think.
@@javidseyadahmed6917
"We dont care."
especially about facts, and this is precisely the reason why Islam is on it's way out.
You don't get killed for refusing liberalism@@akeel6328
The host is, as always, gracious and well-informed, the guest is obviously intelligent and articulate, BUT the effort or inclination to stifle, indeed to punish, personal or public mockery of the prophet or Allah or Islam does not demonstrate courage but rather weakness. A long time ago, there was a highly controversial exhibit in an American museum which required people to step on the Stars and Stripes, draped on the floor, if they wanted to approach and experience the exhibit. A short letter to the editor of a local newspaper made the perfect response to the flood of criticism and condemnation, culminating in "patriotic" demands that the exhibit be removed. "The only flag worth fighting for is one you're free to step on."
Ibn Humam writes:
It is necessary to punish apostasy with death in order to avert the evil of war, not as punishment for the act of unbelief, because the greatest punishment for that is with Allah. This punishment is specifically for those who wage war and this is for the man.For this reason, the Prophet prohibited killing women because they do not fight.
Source: Fath ul-Qadeer volume 6 page number 68
Haven't watched the video yet (though I intend to) but I would recommend the book "Apostasy in Islam: A Historical and Scriptural Analysis" by Taha Jabir Al-Alwani. He's a Sunni Muslim scholar (graduated from Al-Azhar) and his book demonstrates fairly well that apostasy laws are not really "part of the religion" per se. The apostasy rulings in the 4 schools were just responses to various situations the Muslims found themselves in at certain points in history. I went into the book somewhat skeptical, but he made a decent case.
What you wrote is enough to deter one from reading such a deviant's book.
Modern scholarship has concluded that there is no basis for apostasy in the Quran and it was developed later and back projected onto the prophet.
Beautiful video
جزاك.الله خيرا
Nobody who watches this good channel is a coward
There are no apostasy laws in Islam. To clarify this point, we must first differentiate between Hadith and Tradition. The hadith, no matter what anyone says, is a set of stories told by people who claim the hadiths are from the Prophet P.B.U.H. Hadiths have to be authenticated and can only be authenticated if the Quran endorses them. Only those who know the Quran well enough can determine whether a hadith is authentic. The Quran is otherwise known as "FORQAN" which means "Criterion". If one knows the Quran well enough, then one knows the law, and in that case, there is no point in the hadith and so a hadith can at best be a suggestion or note to point out something about a verse. A hadith cannot be taken as law and equal to the Quran and draw jurisdiction out of it. A tradition, however, is what has been passed down from generation to generation and the Quranic revelation forms the base of it, and we use the example of the prophet to clarify some points within that Quranic revelation. The Prophet P.B.U.H Did Not receive two sets of revelations, one public and one private. The Prophet only received one Quran. Tradition is the interpretation of the prophet of a certain verse that we all have access to and for it to be accepted, there must be consensus about it among all scholars. A good example of a Tradition is the daily prayer. We are instructed to pray, and we are told about the times of prayer and about the ablutions we must perform for the prayer, but we refer to the Tradition of the Prophet P.B.U.H to know how many rak'as to say for each prayer and what should be said. The Tradition of the Prophet is very limited and again the origin of it must be in the Quran. Regarding apostasy laws, there are none. If we believe in the Quran and the following verse 2:256 then we know that every soul is free to choose his/her faith and live by it free from persecution. In the Quran 10:108, the prophet is instructed to tell people that he is not " a keeper over people". Furthermore, the prophet P.B.U.H in 3:103, 29:18, and many more tell us that the prophet did not persecute anyone for not accepting Islam and there is no record of anybody being persecuted for leaving Islam. The apostasy laws appear in some sects, which are minority sects and are afraid of losing their relatively small group of followers, their assertions are certainly un-Islamic and unlawful. If we find a hadith that indicates otherwise, it is false and is contrary to God's law. There is no apostasy law in the Quran and we do not have an example of the prophet persecuting anyone for his regression.
at 45:32 "We would argue that we have the most coherent understanding of society because it is based on ____ sociological studies..." Whose sociological studies was being referred to there? didn't catch that.
Hadith like Sahih al-bukhari 1883 Sunan an-nasa’i 4048 prove my point
Imam al-buti rh said if he doesn’t fight us we don’t kill him in his book al-jihad
Page number 212 where he defines to cases of apostasy the non fighter is treated as a normal kaffir where he isn’t killed also not forced to Islam (2:256)
The prophet never forced anyone to follow his religion like ibn al-Qayim said, al-Shāfī’ī adds some people have believed then disbelieved but the prophet didn’t kill them the prophet never killed any apostate
WELL DONE !!
If there is just ONE OTHER HADITH that said that a NORMAL PEACEFUL apostate DID NOT fight back or cause trouble and he was not KILLED or FORCED into Islam,
( in other word, he was able to live his live peacefully after that )...........
then we MUST GO BACK to the QURAN again ( 2:256 )..........and there WE HAVE IT !!!
اللَّهُمَّ أَعِنِّيْ عَلَى ذِكْرِكَ وَشُكْرِكَ وَحُسْنِ عِبَادَتِكَ
Allahumma a inni Ala Zikrik Wa Shukrika Wa Husni Ibadatika
O Allah, help me remember You, to be grateful to You, and to worship You,
It is sunnah to recite {Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus} 3 times after the Witr prayer, while elongating the words in the third time.
سُبْحَانَ الْمَلِكِ الْقُدُّوسِ
Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus,
Subhaanal-Malikil-Quddus,
Subhaanal-Malikil-Qudduuuuuuuus
(or Subhaaaaanal-Malikil-Quddus).
Sunan an-Nasa’i 1729
Whoever asks Allah (s.w.t) Paradise three times, Paradise says: 'O Allah, admit him into Paradise', and whoever seeks refuge from the Fire three times, the Fire says: 'O Allah, save him from the Fire.'"
اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ الْجَنَّةَ وَأَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنَ النَّارِ
Barak'Allah feekom
Masha Allah ❤❤❤
There are no apostasy laws in Islam. Apostasy law is a man made law because I am myself a former apostate who was saved by Allah S.W.T from these extremists and he guided me to his final message Alhamdulillah and today I do great Dawah and most people love the beautiful Islam I represent.
There are apostasy laws in Islam. If you watch the video you will see the evidence.
@BloggingTheology brother Hamza is a dishonest person because he lied to me twice on live streams. I disagreed with him about a fabricated Hadithe, and he asked me to call him on his phone and talk to him, but he never responded to me on the phone or email because he new he can't defend that fabricated Hadithe about killing all lizards. The second time again, when I succeed to talk to him on a live stream, again he removed me. I wrote that I am a former apostate, but Alhamdulillah, I wasn't killed by these extremists, and Allah S.W.T. guided me to his beautiful message. If they are correct and they have the right knowledge in Islam, then why do all of them run away from debating me? I have many videos where I try to debate them, but they remove me immediately. Could you please arrange a debate between me and Hamza?
@BloggingTheology
My answer to you gets deleted by UA-cam.
@@BloggingTheology
@BloggingTheology brother Hamza is a dishonest person because he lied to me twice on live streams. I disagreed with him about a fabricated Hadithe, and he asked me to call him on his phone and talk to him, but he never responded to me on the phone or email because he new he can't defend that fabricated Hadithe about killing all lizards. The second time again, when I succeed to talk to him on a live stream, again he removed me. I wrote that I am a former apostate, but Alhamdulillah, I wasn't killed by these extremists, and Allah S.W.T. guided me to his beautiful message. If they are correct and they have the right knowledge in Islam, then why do all of them run away from debating me? I have many videos where I try to debate them, but they remove me immediately. Could you please arrange a debate between me and Hamza?
@@BloggingTheology I divide my message in two.
@BloggingTheology brother Hamza is a dishonest person because he lied to me twice on live streams. I disagreed with him about a fabricated Hadithe, and he asked me to call him on his phone and talk to him, but he never responded to me on the phone or email because he new he can't defend that fabricated Hadithe about killing all lizards.
It should be ban, people should have the right to choose to believe or not. If you force them to stay in a religion then they dont actual believe in it and it only makes them a hypocrite. And yes i am a Muslim but i also realized not everything the prophet or the companions did more than a thousand years ago needs to be followed. It was a different times and circumstances.
I hope no new convert listens to this video. This is wrong on so many levels. It goes against the word of god in the Quran about Apostasy. You have no courage, You simply agree with the majority of old scholars, where’s the courage in that?
No ridda law. Just read the Quran. Punishmnet is in teh afterlife. Yes at the time of war special laws can be adopted, but not at the time of peace. Traditional scholars got many things wrong.
Says TikTok-cake lacking even the basic grammatical skills to write a few sentences- but oh watch out the traditional Ulama (ra) had it wrong. Beat it twerp!
What is your thoughts on Mosaic law vs The Code of Hammurabi. A lot of people are saying Old Testament law was copied from The Code of Hammurabi.
Please do a reading on this.
Thank you
جزاكم الله عنا كل خير
Defending something of such a mamoth scale with no basis in the Quran
My guess is the TLDW is that the laws are good because islam is true.
May ALLAH bless you both. Amin
@graysonbrockk
Grayson, you had questions about apostasy. This video with Hamza Tzortzis should clarify many topics. It's broad. Much broader than liberalised Muslims might imply.
Paul William's Blogging Theology is a gem of information.
When apostasy continues to persist in disbelief and increases in it, they are moving away from success and guidance towards the right path. as this Quranic verse indicates " Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way. " Quran 4 : 137
May Allah bless you all brother's ❤
Individualism vs. Islamic cohesion, basically.
But what about *competing forms of cohesion*? How would they ever form if not through a small number of discrete individuals, at least initially?
But then, this is a defense of Islam, first. It's secondly a broader critique of atomization vs. communitarianism, a thoroughly secular conversation. So I'm essentially missing the point...
If you truly, truly believe that apostates are going to hell, then yes, you'd be remiss not so spare them that. But of course that just looks like an excuse to hold someone hostage if they don't buy one's particular *way* of claiming one will go to hell without correcting course, even putting aside an *actual* rejection of Islam, and which may just be an interpretive dispute.
(I'm actually curious how many people accused of leaving Islam would themselves agree that's what they're doing, contra just being Islamic in their own way.)
" What is the point of being an intellectual if you are going to be a coward "
- Proceed to catering salafis 😅but anyway, good discussions. thanks