@america_is_done "coming to Jesus" in the passage; is for this life. We don't have to believe in Jesus before we die in order to go to Heaven. God is in complete charge of our redemption (not us!)
There is your answer. Once again, knowledge of your Bible has reduced a half-hour talk to one line. Read the criteria that Jesus Himself gave in Matt. 25:31-46. To complete the picture, I can only quote from the parable of the Good Samaritan: "Go, and do likewise."
@@douglaidlaw740 Criteria with sheep and goats is those that reject Christ and those that don't. All can hear the gospel, all can get convicted, God's will is that they are convicted but not all will.
Actually unless the Father draws them to the Son they won’t come to the Son. So does He draw all ? Of cards not or they would all be saved. If He drew all and they didn’t get saved then that would make John 6 a false statement and we all know that’s not possible. If God wanted to save the whole world don’t you think He would
I have a family member who is a devout Calvinist. He led what appeared to be a pretty materialistic family (from what I could tell, anyway). His wife and daughter were always pretty rogue, and at one point he told them that they clearly aren't elect and might as well stop attending church. Not surprisingly, his daughter grew up to vehemently hate Christians (and blamed him) and is now involved in witchcraft. My aunt continued her wayward life, ultimately doing some pretty awful extra marital things before finally leaving the marriage. She was pretty much ostracized from the family, and I wrote her off and didn't give it much thought until it was put on my heart to pray for her and love her. Long story short, she got saved and is living for Jesus now. She is very vocal about her faith, and isn't afraid to boldly proclaim that He is Lord in Facebook posts. It is such a joy to see such an unlikely person come to a genuine faith in Jesus later in life. I'm not sure how God worked behind the scenes, and I probably am not capable of understanding such a thing. However, we need to be careful not to let Calvinism or any other man made doctrine or interpretation become front and center in our faith. I can only imagine the damage that could have been saved if she wasn't told she was unsavable.
That is not Calvinism. Man, I even doubt if that guy is a follower of Christ, for there are many among us will perish when the Lord come because they are never truly with us.
Calvinism with all certainty is not about US judging who is or isn’t saved! It’s absurd any Christian or self called Christian to say that this person seems to be saved and that doesn’t. We all have difficult moments in life and moments that we fall or go astray from the path, but God sees the bigger picture, He and only He knows our lives from the beginning to the end and He did not give us the permission to make this kind of judgement.
What I noticed about Calvinists is that are often arrogant, pompous, and wanna be intellectuals. They have no love for the unsaved. They look down on the the non-Calvinists, which happen to be the majority of Christianity. All the verse Calvinists use to support Calvinism are always taken out of context.
It's not for us to know who will be saved and who won't. Only God knows, and it's between God and the individual. Our absolute commitment is to Jesus and to preach the gospel to all nations with prayers and fasting in obedience to Him. Trusting God in all things and leaving everything in His perfect care.
Dear God, in times where I am at a crossroad in my life, I ask that you will give me the counsel that will help me make the right decision. I do not desire to go in the way that is not pleasing to you, Lord. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen Shalom.
@@tbuitendykI don't think the person you responded to asked an unreasonable question, do you? Depending on the issues the original post is referring to, having accountability partners displays spiritual maturity. I have been an accountability partner for fellow believers, and I've needed help from the brethren to overcome difficult circumstances. This is a primary way the Lord works in our lives. If you need anything, don't hesitate to ask the body. In Romans 1:12, Paul states that he longs to be with them in person so he can help to establish them. This is why we meet in a church setting, to sharpen one another. Many blessings friend, I hope this message finds you well.
I’ve prayed almost exact same prayers. I’m shrouded in the worst darkness I ever could’ve imagined. And idk if I will ever be set free by God. Good luck may the odds ever be in your favor
This is a very easy question to answer. Christ commands us: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”” Matthew 28:19-20 . God, in his infinite knowledge, knows who will choose Him (the elect), and who will not. But we can not know who is truly elect and who is not. Even those who have committed to Christ can turn away. So we must evangelize everyone, and pray that God’s grace brings people to faith in Christ, leading them to follow Christ’s commandments as He instructed in the great commission.
We should be slow to speak, quick to listen. Not the other way around. After comparing your answer with Pipers, there is more study needed to understand. This is a direct assault to the idea of free will yes. But the Bible sometimes smacks us in the face.
It's not necessarily an assault on the idea of free will. I think one thing about God that can be hard to wrap our head around is the fact that he isn't limited by time in the same way we are. We can only exist in one moment at a time, but He can see past, present, and future all at once. So when he knows our choices before we make them, it's simply because he has already seen us make them. They are still our own decisions.
For the record, God's choosing has ALL to do with Him doing what pleases Him and NOTHING to do with Him knowing who would choose Him (No one would choose God... we can't because we're fallen) and then therefore making His decision off of what he knew in advance about us. That would be an affront to His sovereignty and give power to the objects (us) needing to be saved.
Let's not forget Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this; they began to rejoice and glorified the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS BEEN ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
The Tyndale Bible published in 1526 says that the people believed: as many as were ordained unto eternal life. (Paraphrased) When the people believe in God they are made part of a Royal Priesthood. The day you believe is the day you are ordained as priest! Have you ever watched a ceremony where priests get ordained? If it was talking about predestination it would have said Foreordained. ❤❤ I am praying for you💖💖.
nd as many as were ordained to eternal life believed In the controversies on predestination and election this sentence has constantly been brought forward. But it is manifestly unfair to take a sentence out of its context, and interpret it as if it stood alone. In Act 13:13 we are told that the Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, and all that is meant by the words in this verse is the opposite of that expression. The Jews were acting so as to proclaim themselves unworthy; the Gentiles were making manifest their desire to be deemed worthy. The two sections were like opposing troops, ranged by themselves, and to some degree, though not unalterably, looked upon as so arranged by God on different sides. Thus the Gentiles were ordering themselves, and were ordered, unto eternal life. The text says no word to warrant us in thinking that none could henceforth change sides.
I was never saved based on conviction but through FEAR. I am the first in my family to be a born again christian. I never heard the word of Christ till I was 16 (came from a different religious background: SIKHS). I, immediately, rejected it out of anger which I didn’t know why since it was giving me turmoil and fear of the idea of hell. About a year later, I heard the gospel, again and started questioning in my head, “why do I even care?” For whatever reason, it led me to ask around. I knew if I died I’d go to hell- even though, I didn’t know Christ, at all. …Weird, right? When I finally accepted Jesus Christ, the fear and anger left, immediately. I got hungry for the Bible but I didn’t attend to church till 5 years later where I had all of my answers given-as if Christ read my mind. I also felt and wondered if I would lose my salvation and the answer is NO- since I had never chose him for he loved me first. My life was fine before Christ. Why would I need him? Who in the world ever says, “I’m glad I chose Christ over the desires of this world.” No one would because we are dead in our sins but some of us been chosen to be redeemed for his kingdom. CONCLUSION: There is NOTHING special about us; Ultimate justice would be all of us to be damned. Yet, Jesus went out of his way to come down without ever asking. …If that isn’t a true hero rescuing and wanting to be with us then I don’t know what is; Nothing can beat that. That’s why sinners hate him because he is the ultimate good guy (God). PLEASE, REPENT YOUR SINS TO JESUS CHRIST BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. 😞
I was baptized Catholic, went to a Catholic school and Catholic church. Somehow at a very early age, I think 4th grade. I remember being in religion class and it came over me that I didn't need a "go between" and I could have a direct relationship with God. Even as a small child I would talk to God in my head daily. I consider myself a simple non-denominational Christian that believes Jesus died on the cross for my sins and that he and he alone is my path to eternity with him.
@@CoolioMoDee thank you for the kind words. Truly, I hope I am his because- otherwise- why is he always on my mind? Never thought of him before my conversion. I know he’s real and I do hope he continues to love me.
You can lose salvation and it is written. God did choose you but you also choose Him as well because if you did not you will not do what you have done. You have free will to walk away anytime or to deny Him by living sinfully
@@warriorofthelord4142 INCORRECT; the book of Ephesians and Romans/ tracing all the way back to Isaiah speaks of the NEW covenant. You DO NOT have free will but free choice of sin(s). There’s no where in the Bible that speaks of free will but only God’s will. When you convert you don’t “choose” Jesus but you accept him, instead. You don’t have the power to go against Christ- even though, you can rebel but will live in misery. In other words, there is nothing special about any of us. Ultimate justice would be for us to all be damned. It was Jesus’s mercy who decided to come down and die for us; it is HE who chooses for we all chose against him. Otherwise, my testimony is useless.
It says that “many are called yet few are chosen”. Then you need to ask yourself why God would call someone that is not chosen? It’s because after they are called they would not believe so therefore they could not be chosen. It’s like being called to try out for a basketball team. They try out because they were called to try out. Doesn’t necessarily mean they will be chosen. The ones that are qualified are chosen. Well, not everyone who claims to believe, truly believe from their heart. It says that you must confess with your mouth and believe in your HEART that He is Lord. You have to say it out of your mouth and believe it in your heart and not one without the other.
But you are implying that them being chosen was based on their "belief". "The ones that are qualified are chosen". The only way to qualify is to be chosen. Calvinist doctrine says only God can regenerate the wicked heart of the sinner and grant repentance thus God chooses who will believe (have saving faith not professing faith) and who won´t.
@@Romans8-9 who cares what Calvin said. It's God's clear doctrine. #2 the analogy of the team tryout is not being chosen for belief, but implying efforts/skills over the others, as in Works. Please, before you think you are lead by the Spirit to comment or correct others, be sure you are seeing/discerning clearly yourself.
As stated already to another who even wrongly evaluated your analogy, it's still your analogy that is mistaken. "Qualified to be chosen" in a team sport tryout is those "qualified" by their skill and efforts. I.e. their Works. That is Blasphemy towards God where this analogy is trying to be applied.
This is heart breaking to listen too and to read in the comments. I've spent years studying both sides of the spectrum and still find this difficult to wrestle with when one brings the vast amount of texts on this topic. The apparent paradox is not hidden but instead it is seen from both sides. I am a seminary student and this topic was one that drew me to seminary. I'm still found wrestling with this. I do want to state that if you are drawn close to Christ, listen to the Holy Spirits conviction and grow in your relationship with Him and his word. Everything else can be secondary. God bless you all!
When reading the scriptures with elect and chosen replace your thought of it referring to “salvation” with “service”. Once we believe and become saved we are chosen for salvation.
I have believed the doctrines of Grace since I was saved and I have never thought that evangelism was to focus on people who show some sign of interest in God. I was showing no interest in God when my boss/friend asked me one evening, “Larry, are you saved?” There is no indication a person is elect until they call on His name and begin following Him. So those of us who believe in the Doctrines of Grace or sometimes called Calvinism believe we need to and have to preach the gospel to all. For God saves through the foolishness of preaching.
Yes People choosing not to preach to someone, only do so because they're lazy and uncaring, so use predestination for their reason not to share the gospel. They don't realize the Bible actually states that person's blood shall be required of the Christian who didn't share the gospel with them, on the day of judgement.
The best explanation of Romans 9 that I've heard. Now it doesn't sound like a death sentence to me anymore. God is sovereign and loving and merciful. Praise the Lord 🙏
Romans 9 is a response to Jewish objections and is in regard to national election. Even Calvin said so before talking out of the other side of his mouth and committing the error that it is about personal election. Seven counter-arguments. And Paul interprets his own writing at the end of Romans 9, so...
@@tbuitendyk Romans 9 has to do with national election..the vessels of wrath are physical Israel. Trace all of the references down to the Old Testament. He is not talking about individuals. Jesus took the Kingdom from them and gave it to a "nation that will bear the fruits thereof." Paul was answering Jewish objections.
Sometimes I worry that in my heart I don't truly belive. But at the same time I do believe and i want to. I pray everyday that I grow closer to Jesus but since I over think, I doubt myself.
If you feel the Holy Spirit in your heart, giving you love for people, and you see His working in your life helping you to want the things of God & reject the sins of the world, then you can know you are saved. If you do not see any evidence of God working in your life, then earnestly seek God’s grace, praying for the Holy Spirit to work in your life, and submit yourself & everything you have to serve God.
Romans 11 explains Romans 9; you cannot stop at Romans 9:23 In Romans 11:6-11 Paul explains how the non elect have stumbled and been blinded- but then asks ‘have they stumbled beyond recovery?’ The answer: NO they have not. Further into Romans 11 we see all Israel is saved but not before the fullness of the Gentiles, and thus God binds all to stubbornness (disobedience) so He can have mercy on all. It’s good news - all will be saved, both the elect & the non-elect. This is analogous to 1 Tim 4:10 God is the saviour of all, especially believers. The elect are saved first, but all will be saved. Salvation is not left to ‘chance’ …. Salvation is of GOD
A little humility about one's relationship to God would go a long way to securing our place: He who humbles himself will be exalted, he who exalts himself wil be humbled. (Don't make me look up that verse, I'm pretty sure it exists though!) 😀
@@mattr.1887 No, I think the goal is to stay humble. What it says though is that the humble can be exalted, though that's not the goal. We tend to prefer to be lifted up, but usually in doing that, we can get put in our place in unpleasant ways. If we seek humility, sometimes there is an unexpected reward. Sometimes that reward is just knowing we did something humbling, or just slipped in a good deed that earned us no notice (because we rightly planned it that way, or never gave it a second thought), and we just get a sense good sense that we accomplished something good for someone. Or you can even do something you never gave a second thought about, you just do it and someone ends up singing your praises, and you never even would have thought twice about what you did.
This is exactly what I needed to hear today. I've been subconsciously grappling with this issue, on account of a discussion I had with my atheist friend about election 🙏
Piper’s answer was simply a dishonest answer. The answer in Calvinism is; no, the non-elect do not have a chance to repent. If all the elect were chosen prior to the foundation of the world how could one conclude the non-elect have a chance at repentance. Especially when repentance is a gift effectually given by God to the elect. Christ is the only one elected before the foundation of the world. It is in Him that we are chosen. You are not elect until you are in Him. It’s about Christ and what we have in Him. Not about YOU or I being chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Everyone has been granted repentance, both Jew and Gentile, it is up to us whether we suppress the truth in unrighteousness or fall on our knees and repent of our sin and trust in Jesus for our salvation.
@@WoodrowKlassen7 I am familiar with the Calvanist answer, however I am not convinced of it, especially after weighing different prominent theologians' arguments for and against the Calvanist position. If you are open to considering a reasonable objection against the Calvanist approach - I'd recommend Mike Winger's UA-cam videos. They are thorough, well researched and strictly scripture based. Thank you for reaching out x
@@nix6959 hey Brother, I reached out because I thought you were blessed by Piper’s answer. That concerned me because it was a dishonest answer in light of Calvinist soteriology. Calvinist’s issue is they misinterpret Eph 1:4 to be about them being chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world when it is actually about the spiritual blessing we have in Christ. (Eph 1:3) Jesus is the only one chosen before the foundation of the world, a lamb without blemish or defect. (1 Peter 1:19-20) We are included in Christ when we believe. (Eph 1:13) Therefore, in Christ, we are chosen to be holy and blameless in His sight. And as Christ was without blemish or defect before the foundation of the world, we also are included in that, holy and blameless in the sight of God. In other words, He remembers our sins no more! (Hebrews 10:17) This is a spiritual blessing we have in Christ! Calvinists often accuse every other soteriology of being man centered. Yet their interpretation of Eph 1:4 is about as man centered as you can get. It’s not about what we have before the foundation of the world, but what we have in Christ! It’s Christ centered. Christ is the elect one, we are included in Him when we repent and put our faith and trust in His cross and resurrection for our salvation. I enjoy Mike Winger as well. Beyond the Fundamentals is another good channel to learn from.
Would you say we only have free choice of sin(s) instead of free will? Since no man is good nor can choose salvation unless the Lord permits himself to to choose us?
It's not. You believe a false gospel. The gospel means “good news”. The gospel is the proclamation of who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only. The entire Bible (Old testament and New Testament) foreshadows and proclaims who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only (John 5:39, Luke 24:44). Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), fully God and fully man (John 1:1 & 1:14) and second person in the Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17). The gospel is God’s testimony concerning Jesus as revealed in the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit which proclaims how Jesus the Christ (John 1:41, Matthew 16:16) was born of a virgin (Matthew 1:23) and born under the law to redeem His elect who were under the law and save His elect from their sins (Matthew 1:21, Galatians 4:4). God’s elect /sheep are the people past, present and future from every tribe, tongue and nation God actively chose to redeem/ justify/save based on Christ. God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world was laid according to the good pleasure of His will for His glory (Revelations 5:9, Ephesians 1:4-5). God actively created and chose a people from every tribe, tongue and nation before they were born for salvation whom God has always loved because of Christ and only Christ (Romans 8). God’s elect are vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory to make known the riches of His glory (Romans 9). God’s elect/sheep are God’s chosen vessels of mercy that are Jews and Gentiles because of Christ. (John 10, Romans 9:23-26, Hosea 2:23) God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). God’s law is holy and good (Romans 7:12). The law of God demands perfection in word, thought, and deed at all times (James 2:10). The law was given through Moses (John 1:17). The law condemned all mankind and brought knowledge of sin (Romans 3:19-20). All people are under sin and none are righteous (Romans 3:9-18). Sin entered the world through Adam and death through sin and death spread to all mankind because all sinned. (Romans 5:12-13). Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb without blemish (1 Peter 1:19) for His elect by God’s sovereign grace (1 Corinthians 5:7). Just as the Israelites were released from Egypt after the death of the firstborn (Exodus 11-13) - Jesus Christ the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) justified all His elect at the cross from the wrath of God(Romans 5:9-11). Jesus willingly went to the cross (Philippians 2:8) and offered one sacrifice for all time for His elect He sanctified (Hebrews 10:11-14) as their representative and High priest. Jesus was crucified for the elect’s sin and raised for their justification (Romans 4:25). It pleased God the Father to crush His only begotten Son( Isaiah 53:10) and God the Father accepted Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on behalf of His sheep( Acts 2:23) . Jesus paid His elect’s sin debt and there is now no condemnation for those who are married to Christ (Romans 7-8). By Christ’s knowledge He justified all His elect (Isaiah 53:11) and finished His mission (John 19:30). All of God’s sheep will believe God’s testimony concerning Christ because Jesus justified them by His perfect sacrifice on the cross. Not one sheep Jesus died for will perish. Jesus is the good shepherd. Faith(believing God’s testimony concerning Jesus) is the fruit of what Jesus accomplished for His sheep. God’s sheep are righteous before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ provided at the cross as prophesied in Psalm 32 and fulfilled in John 19. All Jesus died for are regenerated at God’s appointed time to believe God’s testimony concerning Christ on who Christ is and what He did at the cross( Acts 13:48).
@@thestace7777 Simple answer to your question : No. A deeper response : Faith is NOT the absence of doubt,faith is BELIEVING EVEN THROUGH THE DOUBT! Jesus died for doubters,thinkers like me,robbers,liars ect and many more.. Doubting your salvation in Christ is a deep thing which I can’t solidly resolve for you but I can share some information with you to help you in your walk. I have also doubted my salvation. Why have I? I will answer that in many ways including other possibilities among many others as well. #1 Doubting your salvation is usually (not always) because of sin that is either unnoticed and not acknowledged or most cases is noticed but kept down or hidden or not released to God. Will God throw His child into the fire even after he has been redeemed by the FINISHED WORK of Christ and regenerated by the Power of His death and resurrection? No way! He said that all the Father has given to Him will come to Him and it is not His will that any of them be lost. If one wanders won’t He leave the 99 to rescue that wanderer?? The fact that you acknowledge that you are a sinner and you are speaking of God’s elect shows that you believe that it’s all true. Now,if you doubt your salvation does that mean you are not saved or elected by God? Generally speaking ,since I don’t know you, no.. Once Jesus enters your heart after repenting and turning to Him as the only way to Life in Full,once one believes in His resurrection and throws their sin on Him in faith (“throwing” as in metaphorically..not heaping or chucking) that person will not turn away because God will haunt you the rest of your earthly life convicting you of your sin or doubt.. God will not leave anyone who is confessing their SIN and ASKING Him to save them whilst having a believing heart,sincerely! He will not accept you as a son one day and the next throw you into the pit as a reprobate!! We need to understand that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)! God will finish what He has started in a believers heart and life for His glory and because He loves His special and chosen people. I don’t know how this all works in the Sovereign mind of God but neither do I understand electricity 100%, much less do I even know exactly what IT is! Although,the fact that I don’t know it all will not stop or prevent me from using a light-bulb when I need light to see! It’s the same with Christ. We need His Light to see but we want to know how it all works together. We can’t! I have tried and searched and researched and studied and read and listened and prayed and cried and screamed and fell on my knees in the presence of God’s Sovereignty with heart-wrenching sincere tears in my eyes when wrestling with God’s Sovereignty and human free will! I realize this : I can’t understand eternity or how there NEVER was a beginning (as we know it) with God. He has ALWAYS been and ALWAYS will be! How??? I don’t know..but I do believe it is true! Anyways #2 Over-thinking and being human can cause even believers to doubt our salvation. Believers are STILL humans and sinners so we feel convicted by our own selves a lot of the time but Jesus died for us so we do not need to judge ourselves,although it is spiritually nourishing to evaluate these things within your own life and examine your heart.. we should search ourselves like Paul said but just because you’re doubting your salvation that was BOUGHT for you on the cross does not mean you are not saved anymore but rather it could simply be God’s holy conviction upon you as His child..or it could (NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU) mean that one was never saved in the first place but I do not think that is the case with most people who doubt their salvation. I believe it is more of a human deficiency that we are naturally susceptible and prone to since we are gods or our own minds which is why we need to depend on His Holy Spirit to control our minds and direct our thoughts! # 3 Not gathering with believers can also be a cause/factor or drifting away and having self-doubt. We NEED to gather with the church for So Many Reasons as Paul said as well. “Let us not be in the habit of not gathering with the church as so many are in the habit of doing but let us encourage one another as we see the day approaching.” Hebrews 10:25. Golly we NEED each other because we are a body!! A body is one just as the Father and Spirit and Son are One! That is also why God hates divorce because marriage is a resemblance of Christ as the Bridegroom and us as the Bride of Christ. He hates to see family separate! Conclusion : It’s the same with staying connected to the church-body of Christ! Why mutilate the body of Christ for the sake of staying home fulfilling our own desires or interests? If we “mutilate” or “separate” ourselves from the church we are,in essence,separating ourselves from Christ! Does that mean we lose our salvation? No but it does mean one is terribly mistaken and will be convicted by the Holy Spirit! Once we are Christ’s we are Christ’s and no one can snatch us from His hand. God bless!
@@Mark-qd6ub amen at most of what you said,my friend,although I’d like to know who you were referring to when you said “You believe a false Gospel” because I don’t see anything relevant or related to that statement or any valid reason to say that to The Bible Story ⬆️. Maybe I’m mistaken and the person had been deleted and his/her response is no longer visible anymore...idk
@@nicholascarter6543 I want to thank you so very much for taking the time to answer my question!! God bless you!!! I just don’t understand myself-why it is that out all of the comforting things you wrote-my mind wants focus on the part where you write that ‘maybe’ I may not have been saved in the first place. I ask myself, “What is wrong with me, why can’t I just rest in the joy and peace of salvation that other believers seem to enjoy???”
I’m reminded in Deuteronomy that some things are only for God to know. That some mysteries are for him and him alone. We may not understand on why he has mercy on some and not some people. But he has his reasons. This is known for him alone. And by the very nature of who God is, he knows all, is aware of all from beginning to end. And for this, his decisions are impossible for us to incapsulate in our mind. Rest assured everyone.. he makes his choices for his glory yes.. but also because he is aware of things that we are not.
One of the reasons my wife claims led her to renounce her faith was the question, "Why, if God is sovereign, would he even create a world in which the possibility of going to hell would even exist for creatures who did not ask to be created only to be subject to a sinful nature that would ultimately not permit them to see the glory of God and repent unless his grace intervened?" my answer for her is, who are you, same as Romans 9. but the reality remains, and sometimes it feels like thats not enough to satisfy the question. Just being transparent. I trust the Lord knows better than I do.
@@rajankhurana3412 Because the Calvinistic view of things will do that. Its depressing and makes God seem cruel and indifferent and hypocritical for asking us to love our enemies. Read later in Romans 11 where it says they can be grafted in if they abide not in unbelief. With God all things are possible. God is a God of hope and according to Scripture He would rather they be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 22:30. Limited atonement is depressing.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132 While I do believe the calvinistic approach offers the most consistent theological framework, I don't believe it's without its pitfalls. If one isn't careful, it can lead to a rigid fatalistic understanding of reality. that being said, I have all the hope in the world that God can save anyone. and since the Word of God never returns void, I preach and plead with people to repent and believe. I know from scripture he is holding his hand out to anyone who would take it.
@@gabereal87 Your wife would not be struggling if someone told her the TRUTH about Romans 9, and she will not get that from Piper (nice man though he may seem to be) or any other Calvinist. The truth is that Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual salvation or reprobation, except that it is part of Paul's treatise to the church in Rome dealing with God's choice of Israel as His chosen people through whom the messiah would be born...the messiah who would die in our place. The hardening and blinding of Israel that Paul describes are clearly both corporate and temporary so that Jesus could be crucified for the sins of the world. (1 John 2:2) Romans 9 leads into Romans 11, in which Paul declares of both Jews and Gentiles: "so they (Jews) too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you (Gentiles). For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have MERCY on EVERYONE. " (Romans 11:31, 32) The truth is, God is better, kinder, more gracious, more loving, and more just than The Calvinists would have you believe. God is not limited, neither is His atonement. The blood of Jesus is a sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the world, just as the Bible says. Please share this good news with your wife. Her final destination has everything to do with her belief about the nature of God and, consequently, her faith in the blood of Jesus to atone for her sins, and nothing to do with some unchangeable decree by God predetermining her salvation or reprobation. The faith that produces salvation is not simply a faith in the existence of God, or even of Jesus (the demons believe and tremble according to James)...it is faith in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross as the propitiation for HER sins...that is a faith that reformed theology has robbed many people of having who have been swayed by the Calvin's noxious TULIP. The sad fact is, Calvinism has created far more athiests then converts...that alone tells you the fruit is rotten, and it is NOT the gospel (good news).
I've thought about this so much over the years, and the best way I came to terms with it was this - Not that I could even imagine for a second God's position and intention on it all, I do know that He creates everything for a purpose. Once you couple this with the fact He is the creator of and therefore outside of time, you understand that even though some will never repent they are still created, God knows their beginning and end. This may lead you to think he might be unmerciful or cruel for doing so, but if you have read the Bible and know the character of Jesus - what he did for us, you know that he is the ultimate judge and the embodiment of justice. To reduce it down to something even more basic and analogous , it's like a sports game - you watch knowing there will be winners and losers but everyone has their place in the game to make it happen. I don't believe God would ever force anyone who didn't want to be with Him to do so.
@@andrewlawrencei3239 I agree.. even though we might not like it or understands it, God does exactly what he wants.. He chooses to save some and destroy others as simple as that
Exactly, and as Piper stated God predestines in such a way that the unrepentant will know that they are guilty, while keeping Himself blameless. In His sovereignty we cannot fully comprehend His decisions. What some may see as contradictory, God in His infinite wisdom comprehends entirely.
@@armajay86 That's not what the bible says. The few scriptures that have to do w/ election are far outweighed by the many that say "whosoever will may come".
@Sozo no, because "draw" does not equate to "save". "Drawing" means "to save" only if you think this drawing will be infallable. That's a set of lenses calvinists have. I might try to draw a bear with honey and berries, that does not mean I will catch him. Me drawing the bear says nothing about catching him. The "draw" in John 6 that the Father does is the same greek word as the draw in John 12:32. Since you know universalism is not true, YOU have to reconcile the meaning of "draw" with your doctrine. God's patience and love wants to bring all men to salvation (2 Peter 3:9), all men to repent, all men to come to the knowledge of the truth... yet, not all will be saved, therefore the drawing is resistible.
@Sozo you have to set a definition of the word DRAW, and then see if it fits both John 6 abd John 12. If you need to explain an axiomatic word, like "ALL", to someone, to allow your doctrine to work, it means you are in false doctrine territory. Listen, all false doctrines have the same problem and it is this: the need to explain a super simple word like ALL, FIRST, LAST, NONE and so on.... These words are the foundation of communication, and the foundation of LOGIC. You need to explain "ALL" because the definition of something MORE COMPLEX (draw) does not reconcile scriptures. This is a red flag my friend. It is simple, before Jesus was lifted up, the Father was doing the drawing. After Jesus was lifted up, Jesus is doing the drawing. It is as simple as that. It is the same drawing. ALLLLLLL humans will have a shot to salvation, and Jesus Christ will try to DRAW THEM TO THE LIGHT... Him... The light... But not ALL will come... You know why? Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Okay, so, the intent of God is to draw everyone to Him... but most will refuse to come... Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! You see, God wanted to draw Israel near Him... they refused... The interpretation you gave of John 12:32 is typical of those holding on to the doctrine of the TULIP... Have a good day
@Sozo the definition of "draw" in john 6 must be the same as John 12, without you twisting the word "all". Nobody needs an explanation of what "all" means... So, do not adopt a weird view of "all", because your definition of draw would lead to universalism in John 12. You need to revisit what "draw" means.
for those who sitll struggle with this subject, know that there are pretty serious and devout scholars that disagree with Piper. He puts it in such a black and white way and talks with such a high level of confidence, that you get scared even to dare to see what's out there. But the truth is that there is no consensus about that matter and you can hold to a different take on that and STILL be a christian.
@MrAndyhdz to say that "all biblical scholars talk like this" by taking McArthur shows that you need to go a bit beyond pastors that hold a phd. Perhaps we can agree that McArthur's phd served only to inflate his ego, but no academic relevance whatsoever.
Notice how Piper pretends to answer the question, but doesn't. He really only perpetuates the confusion by stating the same dissonant situation which makes people ask the question in the first place.
Tear down the strongholds of the devil that keep men from finding God. The kingdom of darkness is set up for that very purpose, to keep us from finding the TRUTH which in turn would create great hindrances to it's evil purposes. Mankind needs all the help it can get to survive and much more intervention individually to be saved.
@@philipbenjamin4720 Romans 9:17-20 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
@@ssstankkka For a reading of Romans 9 which doesn't amount to concluding that God creates people only to hate them - making him the author of evil (while according to the Calvinist remaining unchanging in mercy) see either or both of the videos below: ua-cam.com/video/GOA1p3NaJ1c/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/7y4yjSwEkfY/v-deo.html
I really don't know how you conclude from that R. C. Sproul quote that God created men to hate them. We are sinners because we are the children of Adam and Eve and we are made after their likeness. No one got a choice before being conceived into this world to decide to be a sinner or not. By the justice of God, we deserve punishement. God saves some from that punishement, hence exercising his mercy, but we all deserve to die according to justice.
The question to ask is who are the Non-Elect? No one knows, only God. Salvation is for everyone! It is our duty to preach the Gospel to everyone on earth.. Thank you Pastor No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 NKJV
@The Righteousness of God In Christ Jesus You believe a false gospel. The gospel means “good news”. The gospel is the proclamation of who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only. The entire Bible (Old testament and New Testament) foreshadows and proclaims who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only (John 5:39, Luke 24:44). Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), fully God and fully man (John 1:1 & 1:14) and second person in the Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17). The gospel is God’s testimony concerning Jesus as revealed in the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit which proclaims how Jesus the Christ (John 1:41, Matthew 16:16) was born of a virgin (Matthew 1:23) and born under the law to redeem His elect who were under the law and save His elect from their sins (Matthew 1:21, Galatians 4:4). God’s elect /sheep are the people past, present and future from every tribe, tongue and nation God actively chose to redeem/ justify/save based on Christ. God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world was laid according to the good pleasure of His will for His glory (Revelations 5:9, Ephesians 1:4-5). God actively created and chose a people from every tribe, tongue and nation before they were born for salvation whom God has always loved because of Christ and only Christ (Romans 8). God’s elect are vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory to make known the riches of His glory (Romans 9). God’s elect/sheep are God’s chosen vessels of mercy that are Jews and Gentiles because of Christ. (John 10, Romans 9:23-26, Hosea 2:23) God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). God’s law is holy and good (Romans 7:12). The law of God demands perfection in word, thought, and deed at all times (James 2:10). The law was given through Moses (John 1:17). The law condemned all mankind and brought knowledge of sin (Romans 3:19-20). All people are under sin and none are righteous (Romans 3:9-18). Sin entered the world through Adam and death through sin and death spread to all mankind because all sinned. (Romans 5:12-13). Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb without blemish (1 Peter 1:19) for His elect by God’s sovereign grace (1 Corinthians 5:7). Just as the Israelites were released from Egypt after the death of the firstborn (Exodus 11-13) - Jesus Christ the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) justified all His elect at the cross from the wrath of God(Romans 5:9-11). Jesus willingly went to the cross (Philippians 2:8) and offered one sacrifice for all time for His elect He sanctified (Hebrews 10:11-14) as their representative and High priest. Jesus was crucified for the elect’s sin and raised for their justification (Romans 4:25). It pleased God the Father to crush His only begotten Son( Isaiah 53:10) and God the Father accepted Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on behalf of His sheep( Acts 2:23) . Jesus paid His elect’s sin debt and there is now no condemnation for those who are married to Christ (Romans 7-8). By Christ’s knowledge He justified all His elect (Isaiah 53:11) and finished His mission (John 19:30). All of God’s sheep will believe God’s testimony concerning Christ because Jesus justified them by His perfect sacrifice on the cross. Not one sheep Jesus died for will perish. Jesus is the good shepherd. Faith(believing God’s testimony concerning Jesus) is the fruit of what Jesus accomplished for His sheep. God’s sheep are righteous before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ provided at the cross as prophesied in Psalm 32 and fulfilled in John 19. All Jesus died for are regenerated at God’s appointed time to believe God’s testimony concerning Christ on who Christ is and what He did at the cross( Acts 13:48).
Michael you believe a false gospel.The gospel means “good news”. The gospel is the proclamation of who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only. The entire Bible (Old testament and New Testament) foreshadows and proclaims who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only (John 5:39, Luke 24:44). Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), fully God and fully man (John 1:1 & 1:14) and second person in the Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17). The gospel is God’s testimony concerning Jesus as revealed in the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit which proclaims how Jesus the Christ (John 1:41, Matthew 16:16) was born of a virgin (Matthew 1:23) and born under the law to redeem His elect who were under the law and save His elect from their sins (Matthew 1:21, Galatians 4:4). God’s elect /sheep are the people past, present and future from every tribe, tongue and nation God actively chose to redeem/ justify/save based on Christ. God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world was laid according to the good pleasure of His will for His glory (Revelations 5:9, Ephesians 1:4-5). God actively created and chose a people from every tribe, tongue and nation before they were born for salvation whom God has always loved because of Christ and only Christ (Romans 8). God’s elect are vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory to make known the riches of His glory (Romans 9). God’s elect/sheep are God’s chosen vessels of mercy that are Jews and Gentiles because of Christ. (John 10, Romans 9:23-26, Hosea 2:23) God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). God’s law is holy and good (Romans 7:12). The law of God demands perfection in word, thought, and deed at all times (James 2:10). The law was given through Moses (John 1:17). The law condemned all mankind and brought knowledge of sin (Romans 3:19-20). All people are under sin and none are righteous (Romans 3:9-18). Sin entered the world through Adam and death through sin and death spread to all mankind because all sinned. (Romans 5:12-13). Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb without blemish (1 Peter 1:19) for His elect by God’s sovereign grace (1 Corinthians 5:7). Just as the Israelites were released from Egypt after the death of the firstborn (Exodus 11-13) - Jesus Christ the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) justified all His elect at the cross from the wrath of God(Romans 5:9-11). Jesus willingly went to the cross (Philippians 2:8) and offered one sacrifice for all time for His elect He sanctified (Hebrews 10:11-14) as their representative and High priest. Jesus was crucified for the elect’s sin and raised for their justification (Romans 4:25). It pleased God the Father to crush His only begotten Son( Isaiah 53:10) and God the Father accepted Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on behalf of His sheep( Acts 2:23) . Jesus paid His elect’s sin debt and there is now no condemnation for those who are married to Christ (Romans 7-8). By Christ’s knowledge He justified all His elect (Isaiah 53:11) and finished His mission (John 19:30). All of God’s sheep will believe God’s testimony concerning Christ because Jesus justified them by His perfect sacrifice on the cross. Not one sheep Jesus died for will perish. Jesus is the good shepherd. Faith(believing God’s testimony concerning Jesus) is the fruit of what Jesus accomplished for His sheep. God’s sheep are righteous before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ provided at the cross as prophesied in Psalm 32 and fulfilled in John 19. All Jesus died for are regenerated at God’s appointed time to believe God’s testimony concerning Christ on who Christ is and what He did at the cross( Acts 13:48).
uh... you just disproved your own point with scripture. If no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him salvation is NOT for everyone... only those whom the Father calls (elects).
@@wiredogdoghouse6006 Salvation is for everyone, its is for you to choose to receive it or not. The Bible clearly states that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 KJV So He says whosoever, this means that anybody who believes. It is sure that not everybody will believe, The Father only draws those who believe. This does not mean that salvation is not for everyone! We have a free will to choose our path.
@@Mark-qd6ub Rather than concluding that i believe a false gospel why not ask God for wisdom when He meant His elect. God's elect are those who out of their own free will have chosen the path of righteousness. When He says no one can come to Him except the Father draws them, He is talking about those that believe. When you believe, He draws you to Him.
@@DD-ld1xqyou didn’t perish? Coming to faith is the day you perish. The day you perish is the day you come to faith. You were once an unbeliever. You heard the gospel & perished. Those who die in their sins will also perish the moment they come to faith. “That all who look upon the Son shall see Him & live.” Everyone will stand before the Son & look upon Him & live. All will confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Confession is made unto salvation.
Piper lied in this video. The true gospel is the good news of the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, it is concerning who Christ is and what He did to save His elect only. The gospel includes the how and why, which can only be seen by faith. It is a message that declares how the eternal Son of God came down, took on a body of sinless flesh (John 1:14) as He was born of a virgin (Mat 1:23). He was both God and man in one Person. He was born under the Law to keep and fulfill it (Mat 5:18, Gal 4:4). He did that, not for Himself, but for all those He represented because they could not keep it themselves. The word of God calls these people the elect or His sheep, among several other names. His obedient life also included the part of dying. He took on the sin of His people as both a Substitute and Representative of those people. The Bible said He was "made to be sin" (II Cor 5:21) and the way that was done is by God imputing (legally reckoned or charged to the account of) sin to Christ. That means all the sin of all those people God chose was "laid on Him" (Isaiah 53:6). This sin was legally transferred to His account and He then owned it in such a way to be guilty of it all. God the Father poured out His wrath and hatred toward sin on His Son and had pleasure (Isaiah 53:10) in doing so, in that, He was completely satisfied in Christ as a Sacrifice that met all the demands of His strict Law and inflexible justice. Christ finished the work of paying the penalty of the Law and then said " It is finished" (John 19:30). He secured salvation for all God’s chosen people that would even be born. His resurrection is evidence of the acceptance of His sacrifice to the Father. The combined work of His obedience to the Law and His obedience unto death on the cross was considered establishing righteousness. This is what one of the Old Testament prophets prophesied as "bringing in an everlasting righteousness" (Daniel 9:24) as Christ died effectually and exclusively for those chosen of God before the world began (Eph 1:4). This righteousness is what God imputes to His people in the context of giving the life to believe in Christ. This puts them in a state called "Justification" and as a result they are eternally secure, in Christ. This is the gospel (Rom 1:16-17). All this takes place in such a way to show God as both a God of justice and a Savior. This is how grace reigns through righteousness (Rom 5:21)
That's a gorgeous answer! The Lord woos everybody through the Gospel and natural means. He is no less gracious and merciful if a person rejects that wooing. They have effectively made their choice. I just pray that everyone will call on The Lord while He still can be found lovingly pursuing them.
The contradiction is clear...if all people are born totally depraved and have no way of coming to God unless God sovereigly and effectually 'elects' them they can not be held accountable for their sin because they have no 'choice' to do otherwise. as Calvin himself said the preaching of the gospel is fruitless to the non-elect. There is no choice to do other than what the sinful nature determines them to be and so no moral accountability for those choices.
First, no one is innocent, both the elect and non-elect. Forgiveness and repentance are the only difference. Second, the parable in Matthew 13:23-30 shows us only God can discern between the two groups. It's clearly above our pay grade as mankind to distinguish because we would inadvertently uproot the precious wheat when we try to gather up the tares. The Lord tells us to let them grow up together until the harvest. Everyone should be shared the Gospel for the same reason, we can't tell before harvest time which is which.
In this video Piper in essence says that *up is down* and *black is white* and then surrounds these blatant contradictions in a lot of theological language so it's more digestible. *God only gives the ability to repent to some but those who don't repent are blameworthy.* -- I cannot possibly think of a better excuse to give to the "non-elect" than the excuse Piper gives to them here. 1. God hated the elect before birth 2. God determined their every sinful desire and action 3. God determined their total inability to believe and respond to God 4. God commands them to repent while refusing to give them an ability to 5. God then condemns them to eternal hell fire for not doing the very thing he decisively caused them to do, wanted them to do and unchangeably decreed them to do And yet... *"It's their fault."* He is calling up down, black white, and blanketing an objectively obvious injustice and contradiction in a lot of theological language so that it sounds like he is providing an answer to this question while in actuality he is simply re-stating the need for this question to be asked in the first place. I love Piper and I believe he is a good man. But this is absurd and untenable on so many levels. >>> ua-cam.com/video/7d1pk9Omfak/v-deo.html
Wait, read your own item 1 to yourself. I believe you meant to type "the non-elect." lol. Also, I went to the link to your video, and I commented quite a bit in reply to others' comments there. You're wrong about Calvinism; it's purely Biblical, and just because Piper does a horrible job in not actually answering the question here, doesn't negate Calvinism nor the doctrine of limited atonement. I happen to think Piper just chickened out, was afraid of the blowback/loss of popularity if he stuck to actual TULIP doctrine. Even Calvin himself waffled on the issue when he was attacked over it. But that's typical of humans. People in general tend more toward the feel-good "God is love" false gospel than the actual Biblical "God is wrath and hatred and mercy and love" true gospel.
Salvation is a message. Not a choice. Not an ultimatum. It’s God declaring He saved you by His grace through His Son. Jesus is the universal way truth & life. All come to the father thru Him. “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN unto Me.” “Through 1 Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN resulting in justification of life.”
Amen.👍👍👍 “Non-elects” just are those who don't really trust in GOD The LORD, The SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Since some sinners or "believers" love and do sins more than trusting in GOD. And the devils also against GOD and always try to kill human by tempting them to evils. Anyone who really trusts in GOD can be saved by JESUS CHRIST. And we can have abundant eternal life if we trust in and obey the Trinity GOD sincerely. For those who never have chance to hear the gospel, I can't judge they are “non-elects”. Only GOD judge in the eternity. I am just a blessed sinner and I know that everyone needs the Precious JESUS CHRIST and Christians have to preach the Good News as much as we can. And I know the Lovingly GOD is totally Righteous and Holy. GOD's judge is the best and much better than any human. Don't be afraid, Don't be doubtful, Don't against and refuse the Salvation from JESUS CHRIST, But Only Trust In ADONAI The GOD. Praise our HEAVENLY FATHER. Shalom. Happy Christmas ⛪🎄🎹🎶🏴🌎🌏🌍💞
Salvation is a message. Not a choice. Not an ultimatum. It’s God declaring He saved you by His grace through His Son. Jesus is the universal way truth & life. All come to the father thru Him. “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN unto Me.” “Through 1 Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN resulting in justification of life.”
@@BingoNamo-gb8pz Greatly appreciate Your reply. My simplistic answer is still the above even though this topic is not so easy🙂Stay well & Shalom 杉哢🌍🌏🌎✡️🕎✝️☮️🏥🕊️🎄🌴♻️🌳✨🌤️💒😇🌙
In the NT, the vessel of wrath is Jerusalem: [Deu 32:34-35 NASB95] 34 'Is it not laid up in store with Me, Sealed up in My treasuries? 35 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.' [Luk 21:20-24 NASB95] 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. [Heb 10:30 NASB95] 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." The vessel of mercy is the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (IE: the Northern Kingdom): [Mat 15:21-28 NASB95] 21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and [began] to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and [began] to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once. The vessels of wrath were hardened in their unbelief: [Jhn 12:40 NASB95] 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." "Hardening" is a term from pottery. Clay is malleable until it is "fired." Once fired, it cannot be reworked. God made murderers of them instead: [Mat 23:31-38 NASB95] 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure [of the guilt] of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? 34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! This hardening was lifted when Christ and his raptured saints on white horses appeared over Jerusalem at the siege of 70 AD/CE: [Mat 23:39 NASB95] 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" [Zec 12:10 NASB95] 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. [Rev 1:7 NASB95] 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. [Rom 11:11-27 NASB95] 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will [their] acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece [of dough] is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, [remember that] it is not you who supports the root, but the root [supports] you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." Per Revelation, the mass conversion of Jews took place as Jerusalem burned. Applying the paradigm of Romans 9-11 to modern times is inappropriate.
Jesus Christ went to the cross and now lives to set sinful you free from death and hell. Repent and turn your heart to Him before it’s too late. If He calls your heart, say yes!
This most certainly does not address the question and it's extremely frustrating. How is someone who is not elect ever going to humble themselves before God? THEY HAVE NO CHANCE!
Good question. It will be done via the symbolic and temporary Lake of Fire: --------------- "[The Lake of Fire's] 'sulfur' originally referred to fire from heaven ... it was used in pagan religious rites for purification. Pre-Roman civilizations used it as a medicine, a fumigant, a bleaching agent and in incense. And the Romans used sulfur or fumes from its combustion as an insecticide, and to purify a sick room to cleanse its air of evil. The term translated torment originally referred to the action of an inspector who sought to test the quality of gold and silver coins. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving. For the apostle John who authored the book of Revelation, and for his readers in the ancient world, the Lake of Fire was not a place of unending torture. It was not a place with no purpose other than to inflict pain. *It was a refiner's fire. Its purpose was to purify and cleanse from evil in the age to come. God is good. His punishments have a good purpose.* " -- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017 --------------- "The original idea of [torment ( _basanizo_ in Greek)] is 'to put to the test by rubbing on a touchstone,' to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. The meaning and usage harmonizes with the idea of divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change in the sufferer ... Sulphur [brimstone] was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's _Iliad_ [about a quarter of the way through Book 16], one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with [brimstone]. The verb derived from _Theion_ is _Theioo_ , which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (see _Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon,_ 1897 Edition). *To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.'* ” -- Charles Pridgeon, _Is Hell Eternal?,_ 1931 --------------- "But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? *For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.* He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and *he will purify* the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord." --Malachi 3:2-3, 400 B.C. --------------- The Total Victory of Christ videos go into more detail, especially "Refined in the Lake of Fire." (15 minutes) God bless!
Also, why the insistence that "sovereignty" means meticulous theistic determinism? Are we saying that the only way God can accomplish his purposes is to determine human actions? So the only way God can win is if he plays both sides of the chessboard? That seems to be a very narrow understanding of God's omnipotence.
I was perplexed for many years why I could accept the Gospel without any proof but so many couldn't see what I clearly saw. Then I watched this video where it's said that the sovereign grace of God enabled me to believe. The the next part, loving sin more than God, is a struggle I have. I have two natures at war with one another. I both love and hate the sinful things I do. For example, I drink too much alcohol on occasion, stop, and then come back to it again. I even look forward to a worldly celebration, knowing it's wrong, and then do it. And then I'm back in deep reflection over what I've done and pray yet again for my will to align with God's will. From what I understand, the Christian life is a constant struggle, a sometimes excruciating hell on earth, until we receive our reward.
I've noticed that when calvinist explains the arminian view they often use a strawman argument. Arminians do the same when they argue against the calvinist view. I believe we would do good to drop the labels and just preach the text.
Calvin wouldn’t even know what you were talking about if you told him about tulip or Calvinism. Arminians had 5 points and so took 5 points from his work in the the 16th century and named it after him. Everyman must be drawn to God, it’s very clear In the Bible, and to repent he must draw you, otherwise your still hostile and would never repent, we see these people constantly. The reason people like Arminianism is because it makes them feel like they are the captain of their own soul, really it’s just trying to take glory from God and make you a part of his finished work. God is the soul reason you are saved. We should just be thankful and get over our egos. You want a book that will completely persuade you with scripture? Read John Owens death to death, and it’s free online. Calvinism is biblical and it was biblical before it was ever name Calvinism. What we need to do is change the name so people realize it’s not a violation of following a man, a really common strawman argument.
I once heard two preachers arguing about theology and one made the statement that he doesn't label himself like others do. The other preacher said "you had better label yourself or others will do it for you".. The reason we use labels is to distinguish good and sound theology from theology that isn't. To say that we don't use labels and just preach the text is to say the same thing as practically every other person who claims to have God honoring theology when in fact we know that a lot don't.. Better to label one self than to be labeled by others wrongly. It has nothing to do with "following a man" as I've often heard it put. That's an elementary way of seeing it.. It's to identify with a system of theology. Theology matters.. In fact it's a matter of life and death.. While the argument can be made that there could have been better coinage for these labels, we shouldn't lose sight of the forest because of the trees..
@@15RunAway the only label I care about is Bible believing Christian. The Bible teaches both the sovereignty of God and the limited freewill of man. To be overly zealous of either side will lead to an unbalanced view.
@@fantheflame304 Did you read my post? Your reply doesn't see like you did, or didn't understand the logic of it or something. Not trying to be contentious. Just seems like you missed something. My post wasn't even about what the bible teaches.
The promises are great TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME. This isn't a trivial or small feat. When you are an overcomer God opens the doors of Heaven to you. It's a privilege to serve Jesus
Here's what I think is the bottom line. We're told to preach the Gospel to all. All are commanded to repent and believe. We cannot grasp fully anything of God as we are finite and He is infinite. We fearfully and humbly seek to understand God's Word and trust Him to help us as Jesus has given us The Helper. It is one thing to try to understand, but it is easy in doing so to become contentious, unfaithful, hard, causing strife, etc. If the answer one way or the other would change how you obey/disobey the commandments we are given, you have quite a problem.
His words ooze with emotion and passion. While emotions themselves are meant to be felt, passions are what we do battle against. God is everywhere present and fillest all things. We participate in his election. We are all in his image.
Amen. Salvation is a message. Not a choice. Not an ultimatum. It’s God declaring He saved you by His grace through His Son. Jesus is the universal way truth & life. All come to the father thru Him. “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN unto Me.” “Through 1 Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN resulting in justification of life.”
If you want to repent and come to Jesus you are elect. Honor him by opening the Bible every single day and get to know him as Lord and Savior. Ask God to give you a discerning ear not to fall for false teaching. If you’re truly dedicated to knowing the Bible, God will honor you with discernment. Your desire to really know Him glorifies him!
Acts 17:26-31 'And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”'
Rom. 9...John 1 to start...John 3 the Spirit does what He wants in bringing those to the new birth. No one is able to come to unless it has been granted to him by my father. No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and to whom He chooses to reveal Himself too. So go and be witnesses to all the world and I will be with you always.
I feel the same. Jesus is EVERYTHING to me! I love Him and think about Him most of the day, talking to Him often. And now this pastor is saying that I may not be saved because God didn't choose me? So I live my life for Christ, trusting in His blood atonement, thinking I have forgiveness of sins, only to end up in hell???? This just seems so wrong.
But he doesn’t answer the question here: If we believe that repentance is a gift of grace, then all who don’t repent are unable to repent because God has not given them that ability…”God must grant them repentance”
“He who is forgiven much loves much.” Is this why God loves us? Because we have to forgive God for all the evil He created & allowed into the world & He refuses to give those who are evil the ability to change just so we can forgive Him? This is how the Calvinists always depict God. Some evil monster who refuses to change us all so we all continue to suffer as a result. I have to love everyone, forgive everyone, show mercy to everyone but God can punish them & torment them for eternity in hell despite being the one who created them & could have changed them with His love but refused to grant them mercy.
There is no mention of freewill anywhere in the Bible? God clearly holds us accountable to our actions. God is fully just. I struggle to understand how God could hold someone accountable for an action if He intended them to make it and they have no choice but to make do that action. I’ve grown up Armenian. Please could someone explain this to me.
Armenians believe God wants to save everyone, but He can only save those who choose to be saved. Calvinists believe God can save everyone, but He does not want to therefore He chooses not to. Universalists believe God can save everyone & He wants to save everyone therefore He chooses to save everyone. Here is why I am a universalist: Luke 3:6 Romans 5:18 Romans 10:6-13 Romans 11:32 Ephesians 4:6 Ephesians 4:25 Philippians 2:11 Colossians 1:16-20 1 Timothy 2:1-6 1 Timothy 4:10 2 Peter 3:8-10 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 1 John 2:2
_"God now commands_ *all men everywhere* _to repent"_ Acts 17:30 God is not calling you to something He hasn't also enabled you to do. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees like John Piper.
@@eeman1335 what about the GREATEST command, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength????? Huh??? Who on Earth can do that for a split second of any day???????
@@alihoussney7870 In your own strength...impossible. The flesh profits nothing (John 6:63). However, _"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."_ -Phil 4:13
I DO pray that you will find repentance and faith, Amber. God loves you, and you DO have the choice to accept Him or reflect Him. Don't listen to this false teaching known as Calvinism.
Don't listen to the nonsense calvinist stuff. Open your heart to God and pray for wisdom and mercy. Place your faith in God and repent of your sins and let God do the rest
Haven’t listened to the poscast; will do in a minute. But my answer would be that the non-elect never give repentance so much as a moment’s consideration. They are not in the slightest bit interested. At all.
A few hundred years ago, there were still parts of the world in which people hadn't heard of Jesus, and had no knowledge of the Christian gospel message. It might seem unfair that lots of people are born without any hope of salvation, but only sinners end up in hell. The difference between a sinner that goes to heaven and a sinner that goes to hell, is grace. It is by grace that we are saved. Grace is a gift, and God is free to give grace to whoever He chooses. I struggled with this truth for a few years. Now I'm amazed that God is willing to save ANY of us sinners!
We, the saved, are told to go out to tell all the world about Jesus’ message (Acts ch1 v8 and Mat ch28 v19-20). Also, Ezekiel ch3 vv.16-21 give us a dire warning about not telling people to repent; we must also tell them to believe in Jesus and ALL his teachings (John ch3 v16; 1st letter of John ch5 vv.7-12 and 2nd letter of John vv.9-11).
But the unbelievers are accountable even if nobody witnesses to them. How many churches do unbelievers drive past in their life? How many times do they hear the phrase jesus saves? How many art masterpieces do they view of jesus? How many pamplets do they find laying out in public telling of salvation that they quickly throw down? How many times do they see christmas cards and ignore the manger scene? Is not ezekiel 3:16 telling of an appointed prophet's responsibility to tell israel? Or do i misunderstand it?
@@KC-dr4qz Nobody told me anything during my life. One day when I wanted to know the truth. I found out about it and on the way to it encounter some demons also
Calvinist don’t understand they also believe in regeneration that we are dead and so depraved that we can’t believe until we are regenerated which we know is false and that scripture about hardening some means he can harden someone’s heart when he needs to like the pharaoh but they take it out of biblical context. If it was only for the elect then we wouldn’t even have to preach the gospel because God would just tell them in revelation or dreams and visions like he did the whole Bible the apostles paul Elijah Elisha Saul Samuel but we are told to preach the gospel to everyone and who so ever shall believe will be saved the gospel is the power unto our salvation. This teaching is very sound and very Good❤️🙏💯
To sum it up: 1. God has chosen a people for himself, not everyone, and in His sovereignty He has overcome His elect's resistance to Him 2. All who perish, perish because of their sin for which they are blameworthy and morally accountable 3. No one who wants Christ as their savior is lost (he carefully leaves out the part where Calvinists believe that only the elect are capable of wanting Christ as their savior due to irresistible grace - everyone else is dead in their sin and thus incapable of desiring God or placing their faith in Him) 4. No innocent people perish (a useless non-point, because within any Christian theological system, no one is innocent before God) 5. Man's moral accountability in sin is not negated by God's sovereignty in all things, including salvation 6. In other words, God's final and decisive governance in salvation is compatible with human moral accountability 7. The only reason people "reject the idea of God's sovereignty" is because they cannot reconcile sovereignty in salvation with human moral accountability. They therefore reject the notion of God's sovereignty by assuming an idolatrous pre-commitment to the notion of human free will. 8. "Free will" is not taught in Scripture. God's sovereignty and human moral accountability are, therefore they fit together with no contradiction (he does not even attempt an explanation at how this seeming contradiction could be possible, he just states it as a fact and leaves it to us to try and reconcile it since he is obviously incapable of reconciling it himself). 9. All are wooed and invited by God every day - whether through natural revelation, conscience, or Gospel truth. These revelations ARE their chance of salvation if only people would humble themselves (again he carefully leaves out the part where Total Depravity within Calvinism means that you are actually incapable of humbling yourself apart from the effectual call of God. He also leaves out the part where God has elected only some and says that God is wooing and inviting all.) 10. If you believe in God, this is only due to the sovereign and effectual call by means of God's grace 11. If you do not believe, it is only because of your own hardness (again leaving out the Calvinistic part where God determines all things - including human desires - and hardens who he wills) So basically he just gave a uselessly verbose and more "theological" sounding restatement of the question, filled with contradictions, and no explanations. The listener who asked the question understood perfectly the implications of Calvinist doctrine, and while I appreciate Piper's attempt to soften Calvinism a bit, there is no getting away from the fact that if God is sovereign in salvation and only some are elect, this necessarily means that God has predestined some for reprobation without hope. Even Calvin himself did not flinch from this fact. So if you are a Calvinist you have to believe that God ordains the circumstances of someone's birth (i.e. does not give them a choice in whether or not their soul comes into existence), knows full well that they will be born into sin through no fault of their own, knows full well that He does not intend to call them effectually, knows full well that he intends to destroy them in eternal conscious torment for the sin that He did not give them a choice about being born into, and that this predestining for reprobation, sin, judgement and destruction is a means by which He glorifies himself and puts His holiness on display. Also God is not abusive and wants all to be saved and is always outstretching his hands to everyone. If any human behaved this way, we would put them in an institution. But not only is this okay for God, it is actually a demonstration of his holiness and perfection. Calvinism in a nutshell.
If you actually LISTEN to what John Piper is saying, he is addressing the concerns of people. For example, you say "no one is innocent before God - a useless point because everyone has sinned (paraphrased)." Don't you see? THAT is the fear of humans, that 'innocent' people might not go to heaven? It's important to reassure a CHRISTIAN, who he is responding to, that no seemingly innocent people are unelect. Yes, no one is innocent before God, everyone is a sinner, but that's not the main point here. You could turn everything into a huge sermon spinning off into every which way. John responds giving context, but GENTLENESS. That's important. Sounds like you just wanted him to go "yes, unelected cannot repent in God. Next question." It's obvious by his reply what the answer is. But he ministers in a gentle way to someone who might be struggling. You can speak the same truth in different ways to people. I'm sure others in with their assertion and abrasion would demand a instant quick 3 second answer. Perhaps they'd get it. But I feel you wouldn't be happy with the answer either way.
Would it be better if God didn't know or He knew but still gave them an ineffective "free-will" that had no power to override anything? In the way I see it, either God is omniscient or He isn't. If you say God gives people free-will to decide to become saved or not, then the final roster of who will be saved is not fully updated or names are getting deleted everyday. When it says that angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner who repents then that's sort of a temporary party cause that sinner could then unrepent cause it's not a done-deal and angels are always in a state of flux not knowing whether someone is actually truly repenting or faking it. The Biblical view is that God knows those that are His (2 Timothy 2:19) and He knew them before the foundation of the earth (Ephesians 1:4) a hard teaching for a finite mind to comprehend, that rightfully draws ire from finite minds trying to ascertain the infinite. The far more comforting thing (which would be the unbiblical thing) would be to come up with a system that you can comprehend that helps you sleep better at night.
What I hear is John Piper taking a Calvinist verse and answering it with a comfortable Armenian conclusion which feels like a relief ( because phew, God isn’t cruel, making some people destined for no option but hell)…. But it doesn’t explain the verse! In fact Piper’s conclusion contradicts the verse. I really can’t see how he can hold his Calvinist beliefs together with his hope and work for the lost…. Clearly he does, but I don’t get it, and I’m afraid this talk didn’t really help me get it.
So grace is resistible then… 😅 it would be contradictory to Calvin’s view on Irresistible grace….. Because if everyone is wooed and invited by general revelation or the gospel, and they can choose to believe or not… than the grace of God is not forcefully made people to believe, like they don’t have any other option but to believe…. And if so… why God choose the elect at the first place? It doesn’t make any sense I think the best view on this is the corporate salvation… God elect Christ… so whosoever believes in Him will be saved.
This is a question I’ve been contemplating recently. Just the other day I asked my Pastor and he recommended reading ‘Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God’ by JI Packer. Any thoughts on that book?
@@MrNobodylj Augustine got it from the Manichaeans (Christian gnostics/neoPtatonists), a sect which he was part of for 10 years prior to his conversion to Christianity. Though Augustine did say he repudiated gnosticism right after his conversion, he continued to refer to the Manichaeans as "brother". As be became older, he began incorporating more and more gnostic teachings in his writings. The stoic/deterministic philosophy of the Manichaeans was exactly mirrored in Augustine's writings regarding predestination. Calvin got it from Augustine. There is a multitude of research sources which bear this out. If you like, I can share some of them here.
Here's who God will have mercy on: " *God* has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. … From him and through him and to him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36a). "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, *but because of him who subjected it,* in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:20-21). --------------- John 12:32, 17:2, Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36a, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2,17c, Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3, the Total Victory of Christ videos.
I always appreciate Pastor Piper’s heart. That being said, the more I’ve considered the predeterminism of Calvinism the more I think it’s unbiblical and wrong. There is only God’s grace in providing salvation from His end, not in making it possible only for some on our end. To say that all people are actually accountable and capable of obeying their conscience, repenting and having faith is a bit disingenuous because according to Calvinism 0.0000% of people will actually do this unless God effectually and irresistibly causes them to. And all the mental acrobatics in the world to try to harmonize God’s absolute sovereignty and man’s accountability because of their legitimate ability to naturally and freely respond ends up being a contradiction regardless of how many times it’s said that it’s not a contradiction. Either God is responsible or man is response-able.
It's a very hard message to consume, very hard indeed. Even though it be true, we still cry to God to have mercy upon those who reject Him. Obviously we (often) don't know who is definitely elect or not. But the idea that not everyone has a 'chance' worries us men of self determination. A sobering realisation that God is absolute and sovereign, so sobering in fact that to ponder it more brings no happy answer for all, which depresses us.
Take comfort in the fact that God’s judgement will be perfect, right, and true, and that the lost will all be mercifully destroyed, not suffering eternal conscious torment as Satan has propagated for over a millennium. Trust God’s word, not the traditions of men and what they’ve told you. Scripture is clear from Genesis to Revelation that the “…wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23). God alone is immortal (1Timothy 6:16,) and so immortality is a gift for those in Christ, not something we already possess, and it’s just a matter of where we spend eternity. John 3:16 doesn’t state that the options are between everlasting life in either Heaven or Hell, but between everlasting life, or everlasting death, perishing. It was Satan who first introduced the doctrine of the immortality of the soul when he told Eve she surely would not die, but become immortal, and that lie is still being taught in churches to this day. God had an angel guard the Tree of Life specifically so that they would not become immortal! Yet in Revelation, Jesus states “To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God.” So, the consequence of their sin was being cast out, prevented from eating of the fruit from the Tree of Life, and as a result so died. And so we all die, and hence Jesus paid the price for our sins by dying, and in rising, conquering death, the first fruits of the promise, that we may inherit everlasting life. Neither Paul nor any other apostle ever once mentions nor warns anyone at any time of such a place of eternal conscious torment. In Acts, many are shown the way of salvation, yet not one at any time is warned of an alternative being eternal conscious torment in Hell. That’s a major oversight if the traditional view is correct. The word “Hell” as traditionally defined appears nowhere in Scripture. “Hades” and “Sheol” merely refer to the grave, while “Gehenna” is only used by Jesus when speaking with Jews in or around Jerusalem, as it was an actual place where all manners of filth were continually being destroyed by fire, reduced to ash. Scripture states that the wicked will be as ash, as stubble, as wax before a flame, be as if they never were, be no more forever, be left neither root nor branch, suffer the punishment of everlasting *destruction* , be consumed, perish, be destroyed, vanish like the splendor of meadows, be destroyed both body and soul, the soul that sins shall die, etc. etc. For the hundreds of verses which speak to the lost being completely, absolutely, and permanently destroyed, there are a small number of proof texts used to support eternal conscious torment, and the main ones come from the middle chapters of Revelation-the least literal in all of Scripture by far. ECT is a doctrine of demons, which maligns the character of our gracious and loving God, who, yes, is a God of wrath, too, but His wrath from Genesis to Revelation is always shown to be absolute destruction. Martin Luther listed the doctrine of the immortality of the soul among the “…monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals-“ He saw clearly in Scripture that immortality was conditional upon being in Christ. Wycliffe and Tyndale who first translated Scripture into English also saw clearly in Scripture that the immortality of the soul was a pagan lie, first spread by Satan himself in the Garden. It’s time for the Reformation work be complete and we truly trust in Scripture alone, and not the traditions of men. “Convince me by Scripture, or not at all!” -Martin Luther
@@mattr.1887 Yes, bro. De. 32:36 is just one scriptural example of many times God tells His people that if repentance haps, He must do it on our behalf. When there are cases where God tells man to repent, it is either that He has already done it for us, or to show them that they cannot repent. It all depends on whether you believe in the free will of man or as Luther put it, The Bondage of the Will. In Jer. 10:23, it says that it is not in man that walk-through to direct his own steps.
@BingoNamo-gb8pz I will have to study to answer what you say about God giving repentance to all. But indeed, the goodness of God does lead to repentance. But there is the cycle of unsaved men who sin, then repent, and repeat the process over and over again. This is what error the Catholic Church thrives on to keep people coming back and confessing their sins. But true Christians repent once unto born againness, and need not ever repent again because they cease all sinning at conversion.
I love Pastor John, but his answer here skips right over the fact that God 'hardens' the hearts of the non-elect. If we take the text at face-value, they cannot believe because they've been hardened. Why are they hardened? Because God hardens whom He will. It would seem, then, that due to God's hardening of their hearts they never got a real chance to believe on Him and be saved. They can't be 'wooed' by revelation, through the Bible or nature. They can never respond because God has removed that ability from them.
This is an illogical answer, and John is skirting around the issue of double-predestination. In the calvinistic system of faith, if God doesn't choose you for salvation then He "made you for destruction" and therefore predestined you for destruction... that is not, however, the point I believe is being made in Romans 9 but it is the logical conclusion of Mr. Piper's position
That is exactly what Romans 9 teaches, that some have been prepared/made for destruction. It is a simple teaching but one that requires deep understanding.
I’m not sure what would concern me more. A God who desires “all” to be saved, yet hasn't the ability to achieve that desire or a God that has the ability to save “all” yet chooses not to. Peace
I hope you are as encouraged by this as I am ... Here's how it will end for you, for those you're praying for, for me, and for everybody: "... at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue *confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11) "...every knee shall bow to me [God], and every tongue shall *confess* to God." (Romans 14:11) "Turn to me and be *saved* , all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall *swear allegiance* . Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. In the Lord *all* the offspring of Israel shall be *justified* and shall *glory* ." (Isaiah 45:22-25) The Greek word for *confess* in the two NT verses, "exomologeomai," is also used by Christ to praise His Father in Matthew 11:25 & Luke 10:21. It's never used in any verse to mean forced praise, which is what many are forced by their theology to argue it means here. The implications are enormous. The righteous will inherit heaven, while the unrighteous will first have to spend some time in the lake of fire being punished and purified. (Rev. 21:7-8, Malachi 3:2-3, Rev. 22:14-15,17c) --------------- ua-cam.com/video/p79qrM2JYxQ/v-deo.html
Definitely pray; however; If the prayers yield good results (salvation). The difference is "knowing" or "not knowing" of the cross of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. All are going to heaven because of Christ
It's good that Desiring God chooses to answer a Calvinism question. However as usual the discussion never gets to the heart of the issue. He says "no innocent person perishes". But that's not the issue - the issue is was their non-innocence due to God being the author of their evil? I wonder - will we EVER get to the point where John Piper addresses the issues at the foundations of Calvinism? It seems not. It's as if he is predestined to think only about ideas which are part of his worldview instead being able to see the views of others and respond to them. If there a lots of questions about Romans 9 why not make a video where John Piper presents his view as to its meaning and also explains why the non-Calvinist view that this passage is about God wanting to harden those who are ethnic Israel in order to INCLUDE both Jews and Gentiles in salvation - is not a more coherent reading - in the light of God being unchanging in mercy and never externally influenced. Has no-one yet asked John Piper - the world's most prominent Calvinist - how if God predestines all that happens he can be anything other than the author of evil?
"the issue is was their non-innocence due to God being the author of their evil? "But scripture says God is not the author of evil. James 1:13-14. The easiest way to understand it is that all men deserve hell but God only intervenes to save the elect.
@@Romans8-9 Hello, Thanks for your reply. Your solution doesn't help. With your solution the problem becomes bigger - since God then becomes responsible for making everyone unable to turn to him instead of just the non-elect (even if he then reverses his decision with some). It amounts to his making God the author of evil across the board. Which then contradicts the verses that you helpfully raise - James 1:13-14 - these verses PROVING that Calvinism cannot be correct. To have a coherent view we must be able to explain how our view is not inconsistent with ANY contentious passage in the Bible (the contentious verses being put forward by both Calvinist and non-Calvinist). So for example the Calvinist would need to explain how Acts 10:34-35 is compatible with their view (I have not managed to find any example of the Calvinist addressing these verses online): ESV So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him". I hope that you will allow my words to change your path if you need to change path - that you will not consider yourself to have a view until you can explain how it conforms with ALL difficult passages. As part of holding myself to that standard I offer you the chance to present verses which you believe are incompatible with the non-Calvinist position. I found the following video to be very helpful in understanding how predestination can be perfectly compatible with non-Calvinism: ua-cam.com/video/48q-i3JuLUk/v-deo.html And I found the following videos present a reading of Romans 9 which makes more sense - since they reveal a God seeking to INCLUDE people in his salvation plan instead of exclude - which is the picture throughout all of scripture. ua-cam.com/video/7y4yjSwEkfY/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/7y4yjSwEkfY/v-deo.html
@@philipbenjamin4720 Absolutely. I love John Piper and his teaching, except on this topic. It doesn't make sense. And they never really answer the question, are people sinning because they're predestined to sin from eternity or not? There was no sinful human before the foundation of the world, unless God sovereignly willed it.
@@mofe620 Yes Mofe, I love his teaching too. It's really important to say (what we like and what we simply cannot make sense of). I wish he would break ranks - just come out and say that he got things wrong in this area - and be freed to help a generation of emerging pastor/teachers around the world. Wouldn't that be awesome? Merry Christmas mate.
For me, it all comes down to this; If regeneration precedes faith (Episode 1774), how could someone come to want the things of God if he was not regenerated? It seems to me that this is our default position, to be dead in our trespasses. We go on living our lives the way we always had and we don't come to faith. As Paul said in 1 Cor 6:11, "and such were some of you". Which one of us was inclined to God before the Holy Spirit opened our hearts? Not me.
What I hear is hyper calvanist exegesis but with an Armenian conclusion! God is wooing everyone every day and his will is irresistible but only some believe and only those who resist God's will go to hell. I listen as carefully as I am able and that is what I hear John saying. No matter. John desires and devotes himself to saving the lost. Thank you Pastor John for putting your loving servant heart on display.
Romans 9:22-23 is one of the most mistranslated passages of Scripture. This issue is covered in the Harvard Theological Review Article, "Vessels of Wrath and God's Pathos: Potter/Clay Imagery in Rom 9:20-23". Romans 9 as a whole is very often misunderstood. Realize that Paul addresses ethnic Israelite believers from Romans 7:1 up until 11:13. Knowing who Paul is addressing changes how to understand these chapters. As for Romans 9:19, the tense in Greek is in the 'empirical perfect tense' (ἀνθέστηκεν). This means the question is properly translated, "For who has resisted His will?" The answer to this question? Israel has resisted. That's the narrative of the Old Testament. Stephen says as much in Acts 7:51. Also, consider Ephesians 1. This chapter is commonly mistaught because modern Christians do not know who "us/we" is in Ephesians 1. By "we/us", Paul is referring to "the apostles". Paul uses "we/us" in the introduction to Ephesians 1 just like he uses "we/us" in Colossians 1, Galatians 1, Romans 1, 1 Thessalonians 1, and 2 Thessalonians 1. Understanding that "we/us" is the apostles in Ephesians 1 completely changes how to understand Ephesians 1. Look at 1:12, "we who were the first to hope in Christ" is the apostles. Also consider 1:8-9, "In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will." Who did God make known the mysteries? The apostles! The Bible says so in John 14:26, 1 Peter 1:10-12, Luke 10:21-24, Matthew 13:10-17, and 1 Corinthians 2:7-16. To bring this all together, the Doctrine of Predestination taught since the Reformation is the result of not knowing Paul's audience in Romans 9 and not knowing that "we/us" is about the apostles in Ephesians 1.
In order for man to be “accountable”, he must have a “free will” to choose. We have a will and the scriptures address both our willfulness and unwillingness.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132 Would God be unjust to save no one but allow all to suffer the wage of sin: eternal death? The hope is found in Christ alone, by grace alone-completely unmerited, undeserved, unattainable by human will or exertion. Eternal conscious torment is a doctrine of devils found nowhere in Scripture. The wage of sin is death. God guarded the Tree of Life specifically so that Adam and Eve would not have immortality, and so the wage of their sin was separation from God, and final separation in death. In Revelation, Jesus states “To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God.” Neither Paul nor any other apostle ever once warns of nor mentions a place of eternal conscious torment. In Acts, many are told the way of salvation and had the gospel shared with them. Not one is ever told of a place of eternal conscious torment. Major oversight if such a place exists. The word “Hell” as traditionally defined appears nowhere in Scripture. The words translated as “Hell” Hades and Sheol merely refer to the grave, while Gehenna is only mentioned to Jews in or around Jerusalem as it was an actual place where trash and carcasses were in a state of perpetual burning. The closest to the traditional view is “Tartarus,” only used twice and never when referring to the fate of the lost. Scripture is clear that God alone has immortality, and that it is a gift for those in Christ, not something we already possess. John 3:16 clearly states the options: everlasting life in Christ, or death in sin, perishing, not everlasting life in either Heaven or Hell. Jesus paid the price for sin by dying, and in rising again, defeating death, the first fruits of the promised inheritance. The wage of sin is and has always been death. There are vessels prepared for glory, and vessels prepared for destruction. The Greek word for destruction used means “To bring to an absolute and complete end; to destroy completely; to bring to a permanent end.” May the Spirit lead us into all understanding, according to His will. Amen
@@warriorofthelord4142 The natural person without the Spirit cannot even comprehend the things of God let alone accept them, according to Scripture. Without God’s initiating work of regeneration, no one can come to Christ. “This is why I told you no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them first.” -Jesus
@@TheBenevolentDictatorship What is the natural person? And what if someone right now want to follow God will Father draw him to Him and show him the right way to do it?
I spent years struggling with this topic but I believe the fundamental issue is that we don’t truly see human beings evil at the core before we are born again. If we don’t trust the Bible, and believe that we are wicked, of course it will be unjust for God to send us to hell. Rather, we should trust what God tells us about ourselves. The fact is that not one person deserves to be saved. The question isn’t why doesn’t God save everyone, it’s why would God save anyone? It is purely his gracious mercy why any are saved
Do NOT worry IF you are elect----just come to Jesus. HE said " him that cometh to ME l will in NO wise cast out "
Yes.
This right here. People make it too complicated. Just turn to Jesus with a genuine and repentant heart.
@@305dave
Just accept the finished work that Jesus accomplished for salvation.
Our repentance is so poor but Jesus paid our entire sin debt
@@Over-for-now Agreed
@america_is_done "coming to Jesus" in the passage; is for this life. We don't have to believe in Jesus before we die in order to go to Heaven. God is in complete charge of our redemption (not us!)
“It is not his will that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.”
Amen. Also God commands all to repent so why would he command something they can't do.
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
There is your answer. Once again, knowledge of your Bible has reduced a half-hour talk to one line. Read the criteria that Jesus Himself gave in Matt. 25:31-46. To complete the picture, I can only quote from the parable of the Good Samaritan: "Go, and do likewise."
@@douglaidlaw740 Criteria with sheep and goats is those that reject Christ and those that don't. All can hear the gospel, all can get convicted, God's will is that they are convicted but not all will.
Actually unless the Father draws them to the Son they won’t come to the Son. So does He draw all ?
Of cards not or they would all be saved. If He drew all and they didn’t get saved then that would make John 6 a false statement and we all know that’s not possible. If God wanted to save the whole world don’t you think He would
I have a family member who is a devout Calvinist. He led what appeared to be a pretty materialistic family (from what I could tell, anyway). His wife and daughter were always pretty rogue, and at one point he told them that they clearly aren't elect and might as well stop attending church.
Not surprisingly, his daughter grew up to vehemently hate Christians (and blamed him) and is now involved in witchcraft. My aunt continued her wayward life, ultimately doing some pretty awful extra marital things before finally leaving the marriage.
She was pretty much ostracized from the family, and I wrote her off and didn't give it much thought until it was put on my heart to pray for her and love her. Long story short, she got saved and is living for Jesus now. She is very vocal about her faith, and isn't afraid to boldly proclaim that He is Lord in Facebook posts.
It is such a joy to see such an unlikely person come to a genuine faith in Jesus later in life. I'm not sure how God worked behind the scenes, and I probably am not capable of understanding such a thing. However, we need to be careful not to let Calvinism or any other man made doctrine or interpretation become front and center in our faith. I can only imagine the damage that could have been saved if she wasn't told she was unsavable.
Yes! This! Amen! Great testimony
That is not Calvinism. Man, I even doubt if that guy is a follower of Christ, for there are many among us will perish when the Lord come because they are never truly with us.
Calvinism with all certainty is not about US judging who is or isn’t saved! It’s absurd any Christian or self called Christian to say that this person seems to be saved and that doesn’t. We all have difficult moments in life and moments that we fall or go astray from the path, but God sees the bigger picture, He and only He knows our lives from the beginning to the end and He did not give us the permission to make this kind of judgement.
What I noticed about Calvinists is that are often arrogant, pompous, and wanna be intellectuals.
They have no love for the unsaved.
They look down on the the non-Calvinists, which happen to be the majority of Christianity.
All the verse Calvinists use to support Calvinism are always taken out of context.
That's the mindset, "God will save them if they are his" and its a badly damaging doctrine in the body of christ.
It's not for us to know who will be saved and who won't. Only God knows, and it's between God and the individual. Our absolute commitment is to Jesus and to preach the gospel to all nations with prayers and fasting in obedience to Him. Trusting God in all things and leaving everything in His perfect care.
Dear God, in times where I am at a crossroad in my life, I ask that you will give me the counsel that will help me make the right decision. I do not desire to go in the way that is not pleasing to you, Lord. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen Shalom.
What support do you have?
@@tbuitendykI don't think the person you responded to asked an unreasonable question, do you?
Depending on the issues the original post is referring to, having accountability partners displays spiritual maturity. I have been an accountability partner for fellow believers, and I've needed help from the brethren to overcome difficult circumstances. This is a primary way the Lord works in our lives. If you need anything, don't hesitate to ask the body. In Romans 1:12, Paul states that he longs to be with them in person so he can help to establish them. This is why we meet in a church setting, to sharpen one another. Many blessings friend, I hope this message finds you well.
Michael --- THE ONLY way to please God is to accept HIS beloved SON and the FINISHED work of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation
I’ve prayed almost exact same prayers. I’m shrouded in the worst darkness I ever could’ve imagined. And idk if I will ever be set free by God. Good luck may the odds ever be in your favor
@@Over-for-nowLol if it were only that simple
This is a very easy question to answer. Christ commands us: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”” Matthew 28:19-20 . God, in his infinite knowledge, knows who will choose Him (the elect), and who will not. But we can not know who is truly elect and who is not. Even those who have committed to Christ can turn away. So we must evangelize everyone, and pray that God’s grace brings people to faith in Christ, leading them to follow Christ’s commandments as He instructed in the great commission.
0j
If you're elected you're elected because God knows you will always abide in him that's why he chose you at the start.
We should be slow to speak, quick to listen. Not the other way around. After comparing your answer with Pipers, there is more study needed to understand. This is a direct assault to the idea of free will yes. But the Bible sometimes smacks us in the face.
It's not necessarily an assault on the idea of free will. I think one thing about God that can be hard to wrap our head around is the fact that he isn't limited by time in the same way we are. We can only exist in one moment at a time, but He can see past, present, and future all at once. So when he knows our choices before we make them, it's simply because he has already seen us make them. They are still our own decisions.
For the record, God's choosing has ALL to do with Him doing what pleases Him and NOTHING to do with Him knowing who would choose Him (No one would choose God... we can't because we're fallen) and then therefore making His decision off of what he knew in advance about us. That would be an affront to His sovereignty and give power to the objects (us) needing to be saved.
Let's not forget Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this; they began to rejoice and glorified the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS BEEN ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
The Tyndale Bible published in 1526 says that the people believed: as many as were ordained unto eternal life. (Paraphrased)
When the people believe in God they are made part of a Royal Priesthood. The day you believe is the day you are ordained as priest!
Have you ever watched a ceremony where priests get ordained?
If it was talking about predestination it would have said Foreordained. ❤❤
I am praying for you💖💖.
nd as many as were ordained to eternal life believed In the controversies on predestination and election this sentence has constantly been brought forward. But it is manifestly unfair to take a sentence out of its context, and interpret it as if it stood alone. In Act 13:13 we are told that the Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, and all that is meant by the words in this verse is the opposite of that expression. The Jews were acting so as to proclaim themselves unworthy; the Gentiles were making manifest their desire to be deemed worthy. The two sections were like opposing troops, ranged by themselves, and to some degree, though not unalterably, looked upon as so arranged by God on different sides. Thus the Gentiles were ordering themselves, and were ordered, unto eternal life. The text says no word to warrant us in thinking that none could henceforth change sides.
And did you believe on that day as well? If not, then I guess you weren’t ordained.
I was never saved based on conviction but through FEAR. I am the first in my family to be a born again christian. I never heard the word of Christ till I was 16 (came from a different religious background: SIKHS). I, immediately, rejected it out of anger which I didn’t know why since it was giving me turmoil and fear of the idea of hell. About a year later, I heard the gospel, again and started questioning in my head, “why do I even care?” For whatever reason, it led me to ask around. I knew if I died I’d go to hell- even though, I didn’t know Christ, at all. …Weird, right?
When I finally accepted Jesus Christ, the fear and anger left, immediately. I got hungry for the Bible but I didn’t attend to church till 5 years later where I had all of my answers given-as if Christ read my mind. I also felt and wondered if I would lose my salvation and the answer is NO- since I had never chose him for he loved me first. My life was fine before Christ. Why would I need him? Who in the world ever says, “I’m glad I chose Christ over the desires of this world.” No one would because we are dead in our sins but some of us been chosen to be redeemed for his kingdom.
CONCLUSION: There is NOTHING special about us; Ultimate justice would be all of us to be damned. Yet, Jesus went out of his way to come down without ever asking. …If that isn’t a true hero rescuing and wanting to be with us then I don’t know what is; Nothing can beat that. That’s why sinners hate him because he is the ultimate good guy (God).
PLEASE, REPENT YOUR SINS TO JESUS CHRIST BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. 😞
I was baptized Catholic, went to a Catholic school and Catholic church. Somehow at a very early age, I think 4th grade. I remember being in religion class and it came over me that I didn't need a "go between" and I could have a direct relationship with God. Even as a small child I would talk to God in my head daily. I consider myself a simple non-denominational Christian that believes Jesus died on the cross for my sins and that he and he alone is my path to eternity with him.
@@CoolioMoDee thank you for the kind words. Truly, I hope I am his because- otherwise- why is he always on my mind? Never thought of him before my conversion. I know he’s real and I do hope he continues to love me.
@@johnpyle8027 yep, we have direct communication since Holy Spirit is our middle ground.
You can lose salvation and it is written. God did choose you but you also choose Him as well because if you did not you will not do what you have done. You have free will to walk away anytime or to deny Him by living sinfully
@@warriorofthelord4142 INCORRECT; the book of Ephesians and Romans/ tracing all the way back to Isaiah speaks of the NEW covenant. You DO NOT have free will but free choice of sin(s). There’s no where in the Bible that speaks of free will but only God’s will. When you convert you don’t “choose” Jesus but you accept him, instead. You don’t have the power to go against Christ- even though, you can rebel but will live in misery. In other words, there is nothing special about any of us. Ultimate justice would be for us to all be damned. It was Jesus’s mercy who decided to come down and die for us; it is HE who chooses for we all chose against him. Otherwise, my testimony is useless.
It says that “many are called yet few are chosen”. Then you need to ask yourself why God would call someone that is not chosen? It’s because after they are called they would not believe so therefore they could not be chosen. It’s like being called to try out for a basketball team. They try out because they were called to try out. Doesn’t necessarily mean they will be chosen. The ones that are qualified are chosen. Well, not everyone who claims to believe, truly believe from their heart. It says that you must confess with your mouth and believe in your HEART that He is Lord. You have to say it out of your mouth and believe it in your heart and not one without the other.
But you are implying that them being chosen was based on their "belief". "The ones that are qualified are chosen". The only way to qualify is to be chosen. Calvinist doctrine says only God can regenerate the wicked heart of the sinner and grant repentance thus God chooses who will believe (have saving faith not professing faith) and who won´t.
The few is referring to the jews that saved at that time. "Salvation is of the Jews"
Chosen are not same as called and both groups of them belong to the Lord. Chosen ones or elect are part from 144k and all others are called ones
@@Romans8-9 who cares what Calvin said. It's God's clear doctrine.
#2 the analogy of the team tryout is not being chosen for belief, but implying efforts/skills over the others, as in Works.
Please, before you think you are lead by the Spirit to comment or correct others, be sure you are seeing/discerning clearly yourself.
As stated already to another who even wrongly evaluated your analogy, it's still your analogy that is mistaken.
"Qualified to be chosen" in a team sport tryout is those "qualified" by their skill and efforts. I.e. their Works. That is Blasphemy towards God where this analogy is trying to be applied.
This is heart breaking to listen too and to read in the comments. I've spent years studying both sides of the spectrum and still find this difficult to wrestle with when one brings the vast amount of texts on this topic. The apparent paradox is not hidden but instead it is seen from both sides. I am a seminary student and this topic was one that drew me to seminary. I'm still found wrestling with this.
I do want to state that if you are drawn close to Christ, listen to the Holy Spirits conviction and grow in your relationship with Him and his word. Everything else can be secondary. God bless you all!
When reading the scriptures with elect and chosen replace your thought of it referring to “salvation” with “service”. Once we believe and become saved we are chosen for salvation.
Good comment.
Your encouragement to "listen to the Holy Spirit" indicates that we have the CHOICE to do so or not, which refutes Calvinism.
I have believed the doctrines of Grace since I was saved and I have never thought that evangelism was to focus on people who show some sign of interest in God. I was showing no interest in God when my boss/friend asked me one evening, “Larry, are you saved?” There is no indication a person is elect until they call on His name and begin following Him. So those of us who believe in the Doctrines of Grace or sometimes called Calvinism believe we need to and have to preach the gospel to all. For God saves through the foolishness of preaching.
Amen to all the above, you don’t know who is elect until you see the next to you worshiping God in heaven
Yes
People choosing not to preach to someone, only do so because they're lazy and uncaring, so use predestination for their reason not to share the gospel.
They don't realize the Bible actually states that person's blood shall be required of the Christian who didn't share the gospel with them, on the day of judgement.
Every Knee Will Bow and Every Tongue Will Confess that Jesus Christ is Lord Hallelujah God Bless ✌
The best explanation of Romans 9 that I've heard. Now it doesn't sound like a death sentence to me anymore. God is sovereign and loving and merciful. Praise the Lord 🙏
If you were chosen to be a vessel of mercy and not destruction ….
@@brandonvonbo9708 seriously. Bummer for the non-elect. They are the victims here.
I couldn’t disagree more.
Romans 9 is a response to Jewish objections and is in regard to national election. Even Calvin said so before talking out of the other side of his mouth and committing the error that it is about personal election. Seven counter-arguments.
And Paul interprets his own writing at the end of Romans 9, so...
@@tbuitendyk Romans 9 has to do with national election..the vessels of wrath are physical Israel. Trace all of the references down to the Old Testament. He is not talking about individuals. Jesus took the Kingdom from them and gave it to a "nation that will bear the fruits thereof."
Paul was answering Jewish objections.
Sometimes I worry that in my heart I don't truly belive. But at the same time I do believe and i want to. I pray everyday that I grow closer to Jesus but since I over think, I doubt myself.
If you feel the Holy Spirit in your heart, giving you love for people, and you see His working in your life helping you to want the things of God & reject the sins of the world, then you can know you are saved. If you do not see any evidence of God working in your life, then earnestly seek God’s grace, praying for the Holy Spirit to work in your life, and submit yourself & everything you have to serve God.
Amen!!! Pastor sir... You're blessed amongst men for bringing to light this great doctrinal truth
Romans 11 explains Romans 9; you cannot stop at Romans 9:23
In Romans 11:6-11 Paul explains how the non elect have stumbled and been blinded- but then asks ‘have they stumbled beyond recovery?’ The answer: NO they have not.
Further into Romans 11 we see all Israel is saved but not before the fullness of the Gentiles, and thus God binds all to stubbornness (disobedience) so He can have mercy on all.
It’s good news - all will be saved, both the elect & the non-elect. This is analogous to 1 Tim 4:10 God is the saviour of all, especially believers. The elect are saved first, but all will be saved.
Salvation is not left to ‘chance’ …. Salvation is of GOD
A little humility about one's relationship to God would go a long way to securing our place: He who humbles himself will be exalted, he who exalts himself wil be humbled. (Don't make me look up that verse, I'm pretty sure it exists though!) 😀
Amen
I think that verse is Luke 14:11
It is super easy to look up parts of verses now. You can just plug that into search and the verse will come right up on on the online bibles.
So the goal is to be exalted?
@@mattr.1887 No, I think the goal is to stay humble. What it says though is that the humble can be exalted, though that's not the goal. We tend to prefer to be lifted up, but usually in doing that, we can get put in our place in unpleasant ways. If we seek humility, sometimes there is an unexpected reward. Sometimes that reward is just knowing we did something humbling, or just slipped in a good deed that earned us no notice (because we rightly planned it that way, or never gave it a second thought), and we just get a sense good sense that we accomplished something good for someone. Or you can even do something you never gave a second thought about, you just do it and someone ends up singing your praises, and you never even would have thought twice about what you did.
This is exactly what I needed to hear today. I've been subconsciously grappling with this issue, on account of a discussion I had with my atheist friend about election 🙏
Piper’s answer was simply a dishonest answer. The answer in Calvinism is; no, the non-elect do not have a chance to repent. If all the elect were chosen prior to the foundation of the world how could one conclude the non-elect have a chance at repentance. Especially when repentance is a gift effectually given by God to the elect.
Christ is the only one elected before the foundation of the world. It is in Him that we are chosen. You are not elect until you are in Him. It’s about Christ and what we have in Him. Not about YOU or I being chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world. Everyone has been granted repentance, both Jew and Gentile, it is up to us whether we suppress the truth in unrighteousness or fall on our knees and repent of our sin and trust in Jesus for our salvation.
@@WoodrowKlassen7 I am familiar with the Calvanist answer, however I am not convinced of it, especially after weighing different prominent theologians' arguments for and against the Calvanist position. If you are open to considering a reasonable objection against the Calvanist approach - I'd recommend Mike Winger's UA-cam videos. They are thorough, well researched and strictly scripture based. Thank you for reaching out x
@@nix6959 hey Brother, I reached out because I thought you were blessed by Piper’s answer. That concerned me because it was a dishonest answer in light of Calvinist soteriology.
Calvinist’s issue is they misinterpret Eph 1:4 to be about them being chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world when it is actually about the spiritual blessing we have in Christ. (Eph 1:3) Jesus is the only one chosen before the foundation of the world, a lamb without blemish or defect. (1 Peter 1:19-20) We are included in Christ when we believe. (Eph 1:13) Therefore, in Christ, we are chosen to be holy and blameless in His sight. And as Christ was without blemish or defect before the foundation of the world, we also are included in that, holy and blameless in the sight of God. In other words, He remembers our sins no more! (Hebrews 10:17) This is a spiritual blessing we have in Christ!
Calvinists often accuse every other soteriology of being man centered. Yet their interpretation of Eph 1:4 is about as man centered as you can get. It’s not about what we have before the foundation of the world, but what we have in Christ! It’s Christ centered. Christ is the elect one, we are included in Him when we repent and put our faith and trust in His cross and resurrection for our salvation.
I enjoy Mike Winger as well. Beyond the Fundamentals is another good channel to learn from.
John Hagee preaches that there are 7 types of people God can't save 😮😮😢😢
Shalom qodesh mishpacha!! All esteem to Abba YAHWEH b'YAHSHUA ha'Maschiach!! HalleluYAH!! Amein!!
I always struggle with the concept of free will as a believer in God's sovereignty, now I understand why.
Would you say we only have free choice of sin(s) instead of free will? Since no man is good nor can choose salvation unless the Lord permits himself to to choose us?
@@CoolioMoDee Isn’t that what I’m saying?
@@CoolioMoDee ok, cool. That’s what I assumed. I wrote out my testimony, on here. Have a look.
@@CoolioMoDee it's a terrible system, if it's real.
Seems like a solid biblical answer to a difficult question. I suppose one day we will all understand fully and be praising God for this too.
It's not. You believe a false gospel.
The gospel means “good news”. The gospel is the proclamation of who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only. The entire Bible (Old testament and New Testament) foreshadows and proclaims who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only (John 5:39, Luke 24:44).
Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), fully God and fully man (John 1:1 & 1:14) and second person in the Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17).
The gospel is God’s testimony concerning Jesus as revealed in the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit which proclaims how Jesus the Christ (John 1:41, Matthew 16:16) was born of a virgin (Matthew 1:23) and born under the law to redeem His elect who were under the law and save His elect from their sins (Matthew 1:21, Galatians 4:4).
God’s elect /sheep are the people past, present and future from every tribe, tongue and nation God actively chose to redeem/ justify/save based on Christ. God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world was laid according to the good pleasure of His will for His glory (Revelations 5:9, Ephesians 1:4-5). God actively created and chose a people from every tribe, tongue and nation before they were born for salvation whom God has always loved because of Christ and only Christ (Romans 8). God’s elect are vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory to make known the riches of His glory (Romans 9). God’s elect/sheep are God’s chosen vessels of mercy that are Jews and Gentiles because of Christ. (John 10, Romans 9:23-26, Hosea 2:23)
God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). God’s law is holy and good (Romans 7:12). The law of God demands perfection in word, thought, and deed at all times (James 2:10). The law was given through Moses (John 1:17). The law condemned all mankind and brought knowledge of sin (Romans 3:19-20). All people are under sin and none are righteous (Romans 3:9-18). Sin entered the world through Adam and death through sin and death spread to all mankind because all sinned. (Romans 5:12-13).
Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb without blemish (1 Peter 1:19) for His elect by God’s sovereign grace (1 Corinthians 5:7). Just as the Israelites were released from Egypt after the death of the firstborn (Exodus 11-13) - Jesus Christ the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) justified all His elect at the cross from the wrath of God(Romans 5:9-11). Jesus willingly went to the cross (Philippians 2:8) and offered one sacrifice for all time for His elect He sanctified (Hebrews 10:11-14) as their representative and High priest. Jesus was crucified for the elect’s sin and raised for their justification (Romans 4:25). It pleased God the Father to crush His only begotten Son( Isaiah 53:10) and God the Father accepted Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on behalf of His sheep( Acts 2:23) . Jesus paid His elect’s sin debt and there is now no condemnation for those who are married to Christ (Romans 7-8).
By Christ’s knowledge He justified all His elect (Isaiah 53:11) and finished His mission (John 19:30). All of God’s sheep will believe God’s testimony concerning Christ because Jesus justified them by His perfect sacrifice on the cross. Not one sheep Jesus died for will perish. Jesus is the good shepherd. Faith(believing God’s testimony concerning Jesus) is the fruit of what Jesus accomplished for His sheep. God’s sheep are righteous before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ provided at the cross as prophesied in Psalm 32 and fulfilled in John 19. All Jesus died for are regenerated at God’s appointed time to believe God’s testimony concerning Christ on who Christ is and what He did at the cross( Acts 13:48).
@@Mark-qd6ub I struggle with the assurance of my salvation from God. Does this mean that I’m one of the non elect?
@@thestace7777 Simple answer to your question : No.
A deeper response : Faith is NOT the absence of doubt,faith is BELIEVING EVEN THROUGH THE DOUBT! Jesus died for doubters,thinkers like me,robbers,liars ect and many more.. Doubting your salvation in Christ is a deep thing which I can’t solidly resolve for you but I can share some information with you to help you in your walk. I have also doubted my salvation. Why have I?
I will answer that in many ways including other possibilities among many others as well. #1 Doubting your salvation is usually (not always) because of sin that is either unnoticed and not acknowledged or most cases is noticed but kept down or hidden or not released to God. Will God throw His child into the fire even after he has been redeemed by the FINISHED WORK of Christ and regenerated by the Power of His death and resurrection? No way! He said that all the Father has given to Him will come to Him and it is not His will that any of them be lost. If one wanders won’t He leave the 99 to rescue that wanderer?? The fact that you acknowledge that you are a sinner and you are speaking of God’s elect shows that you believe that it’s all true. Now,if you doubt your salvation does that mean you are not saved or elected by God? Generally speaking ,since I don’t know you, no.. Once Jesus enters your heart after repenting and turning to Him as the only way to Life in Full,once one believes in His resurrection and throws their sin on Him in faith (“throwing” as in metaphorically..not heaping or chucking) that person will not turn away because God will haunt you the rest of your earthly life convicting you of your sin or doubt.. God will not leave anyone who is confessing their SIN and ASKING Him to save them whilst having a believing heart,sincerely! He will not accept you as a son one day and the next throw you into the pit as a reprobate!! We need to understand that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)! God will finish what He has started in a believers heart and life for His glory and because He loves His special and chosen people. I don’t know how this all works in the Sovereign mind of God but neither do I understand electricity 100%, much less do I even know exactly what IT is! Although,the fact that I don’t know it all will not stop or prevent me from using a light-bulb when I need light to see! It’s the same with Christ. We need His Light to see but we want to know how it all works together. We can’t! I have tried and searched and researched and studied and read and listened and prayed and cried and screamed and fell on my knees in the presence of God’s Sovereignty with heart-wrenching sincere tears in my eyes when wrestling with God’s Sovereignty and human free will! I realize this : I can’t understand eternity or how there NEVER was a beginning (as we know it) with God. He has ALWAYS been and ALWAYS will be! How??? I don’t know..but I do believe it is true!
Anyways #2 Over-thinking and being human can cause even believers to doubt our salvation. Believers are STILL humans and sinners so we feel convicted by our own selves a lot of the time but Jesus died for us so we do not need to judge ourselves,although it is spiritually nourishing to evaluate these things within your own life and examine your heart.. we should search ourselves like Paul said but just because you’re doubting your salvation that was BOUGHT for you on the cross does not mean you are not saved anymore but rather it could simply be God’s holy conviction upon you as His child..or it could (NOT SAYING THIS IS YOU) mean that one was never saved in the first place but I do not think that is the case with most people who doubt their salvation. I believe it is more of a human deficiency that we are naturally susceptible and prone to since we are gods or our own minds which is why we need to depend on His Holy Spirit to control our minds and direct our thoughts! # 3 Not gathering with believers can also be a cause/factor or drifting away and having self-doubt. We NEED to gather with the church for So Many Reasons as Paul said as well. “Let us not be in the habit of not gathering with the church as so many are in the habit of doing but let us encourage one another as we see the day approaching.” Hebrews 10:25. Golly we NEED each other because we are a body!! A body is one just as the Father and Spirit and Son are One! That is also why God hates divorce because marriage is a resemblance of Christ as the Bridegroom and us as the Bride of Christ. He hates to see family separate! Conclusion : It’s the same with staying connected to the church-body of Christ! Why mutilate the body of Christ for the sake of staying home fulfilling our own desires or interests? If we “mutilate” or “separate” ourselves from the church we are,in essence,separating ourselves from Christ! Does that mean we lose our salvation? No but it does mean one is terribly mistaken and will be convicted by the Holy Spirit! Once we are Christ’s we are Christ’s and no one can snatch us from His hand. God bless!
@@Mark-qd6ub amen at most of what you said,my friend,although I’d like to know who you were referring to when you said “You believe a false Gospel” because I don’t see anything relevant or related to that statement or any valid reason to say that to The Bible Story ⬆️. Maybe I’m mistaken and the person had been deleted and his/her response is no longer visible anymore...idk
@@nicholascarter6543 I want to thank you so very much for taking the time to answer my question!! God bless you!!!
I just don’t understand myself-why it is that out all of the comforting things you wrote-my mind wants focus on the part where you write that ‘maybe’ I may not have been saved in the first place. I ask myself, “What is wrong with me, why can’t I just rest in the joy and peace of salvation that other believers seem to enjoy???”
I’m reminded in Deuteronomy that some things are only for God to know. That some mysteries are for him and him alone. We may not understand on why he has mercy on some and not some people. But he has his reasons. This is known for him alone. And by the very nature of who God is, he knows all, is aware of all from beginning to end. And for this, his decisions are impossible for us to incapsulate in our mind. Rest assured everyone.. he makes his choices for his glory yes.. but also because he is aware of things that we are not.
One of the reasons my wife claims led her to renounce her faith was the question, "Why, if God is sovereign, would he even create a world in which the possibility of going to hell would even exist for creatures who did not ask to be created only to be subject to a sinful nature that would ultimately not permit them to see the glory of God and repent unless his grace intervened?" my answer for her is, who are you, same as Romans 9. but the reality remains, and sometimes it feels like thats not enough to satisfy the question. Just being transparent. I trust the Lord knows better than I do.
That’s a hard one. I’m just now discovering this view that piper speaks on here and in Roman’s 9. Hard to grapple with but I trust God
@@rajankhurana3412 Because the Calvinistic view of things will do that. Its depressing and makes God seem cruel and indifferent and hypocritical for asking us to love our enemies. Read later in Romans 11 where it says they can be grafted in if they abide not in unbelief. With God all things are possible. God is a God of hope and according to Scripture He would rather they be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 22:30. Limited atonement is depressing.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132 While I do believe the calvinistic approach offers the most consistent theological framework, I don't believe it's without its pitfalls. If one isn't careful, it can lead to a rigid fatalistic understanding of reality. that being said, I have all the hope in the world that God can save anyone. and since the Word of God never returns void, I preach and plead with people to repent and believe. I know from scripture he is holding his hand out to anyone who would take it.
@The Righteousness of God In Christ Jesus Which one is that? forgive me, I havent revisited this thread in a while.
@@gabereal87 Your wife would not be struggling if someone told her the TRUTH about Romans 9, and she will not get that from Piper (nice man though he may seem to be) or any other Calvinist.
The truth is that Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual salvation or reprobation, except that it is part of Paul's treatise to the church in Rome dealing with God's choice of Israel as His chosen people through whom the messiah would be born...the messiah who would die in our place.
The hardening and blinding of Israel that Paul describes are clearly both corporate and temporary so that Jesus could be crucified for the sins of the world. (1 John 2:2)
Romans 9 leads into Romans 11, in which Paul declares of both Jews and Gentiles: "so they (Jews) too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you (Gentiles). For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have MERCY on EVERYONE. " (Romans 11:31, 32)
The truth is, God is better, kinder, more gracious, more loving, and more just than The Calvinists would have you believe. God is not limited, neither is His atonement. The blood of Jesus is a sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the world, just as the Bible says.
Please share this good news with your wife. Her final destination has everything to do with her belief about the nature of God and, consequently, her faith in the blood of Jesus to atone for her sins, and nothing to do with some unchangeable decree by God predetermining her salvation or reprobation.
The faith that produces salvation is not simply a faith in the existence of God, or even of Jesus (the demons believe and tremble according to James)...it is faith in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross as the propitiation for HER sins...that is a faith that reformed theology has robbed many people of having who have been swayed by the Calvin's noxious TULIP.
The sad fact is, Calvinism has created far more athiests then converts...that alone tells you the fruit is rotten, and it is NOT the gospel (good news).
I've thought about this so much over the years, and the best way I came to terms with it was this - Not that I could even imagine for a second God's position and intention on it all, I do know that He creates everything for a purpose. Once you couple this with the fact He is the creator of and therefore outside of time, you understand that even though some will never repent they are still created, God knows their beginning and end. This may lead you to think he might be unmerciful or cruel for doing so, but if you have read the Bible and know the character of Jesus - what he did for us, you know that he is the ultimate judge and the embodiment of justice. To reduce it down to something even more basic and analogous , it's like a sports game - you watch knowing there will be winners and losers but everyone has their place in the game to make it happen. I don't believe God would ever force anyone who didn't want to be with Him to do so.
I don’t agree with that statement, God election is God way not our way.
@@andrewlawrencei3239 I agree.. even though we might not like it or understands it, God does exactly what he wants.. He chooses to save some and destroy others as simple as that
@@armajay86 That’s what I said always, God said it very clearly . But most people in the world don’t agree with it
Exactly, and as Piper stated God predestines in such a way that the unrepentant will know that they are guilty, while keeping Himself blameless. In His sovereignty we cannot fully comprehend His decisions. What some may see as contradictory, God in His infinite wisdom comprehends entirely.
@@armajay86 That's not what the bible says. The few scriptures that have to do w/ election are far outweighed by the many that say "whosoever will may come".
John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So... has Jesus been lifted up from the earth already?
@Sozo no, because "draw" does not equate to "save". "Drawing" means "to save" only if you think this drawing will be infallable. That's a set of lenses calvinists have. I might try to draw a bear with honey and berries, that does not mean I will catch him. Me drawing the bear says nothing about catching him.
The "draw" in John 6 that the Father does is the same greek word as the draw in John 12:32. Since you know universalism is not true, YOU have to reconcile the meaning of "draw" with your doctrine.
God's patience and love wants to bring all men to salvation (2 Peter 3:9), all men to repent, all men to come to the knowledge of the truth... yet, not all will be saved, therefore the drawing is resistible.
@Sozo you have to set a definition of the word DRAW, and then see if it fits both John 6 abd John 12. If you need to explain an axiomatic word, like "ALL", to someone, to allow your doctrine to work, it means you are in false doctrine territory.
Listen, all false doctrines have the same problem and it is this: the need to explain a super simple word like ALL, FIRST, LAST, NONE and so on.... These words are the foundation of communication, and the foundation of LOGIC. You need to explain "ALL" because the definition of something MORE COMPLEX (draw) does not reconcile scriptures. This is a red flag my friend.
It is simple, before Jesus was lifted up, the Father was doing the drawing. After Jesus was lifted up, Jesus is doing the drawing. It is as simple as that. It is the same drawing. ALLLLLLL humans will have a shot to salvation, and Jesus Christ will try to DRAW THEM TO THE LIGHT... Him... The light... But not ALL will come... You know why?
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Okay, so, the intent of God is to draw everyone to Him... but most will refuse to come...
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
You see, God wanted to draw Israel near Him... they refused...
The interpretation you gave of John 12:32 is typical of those holding on to the doctrine of the TULIP...
Have a good day
@Sozo the definition of "draw" in john 6 must be the same as John 12, without you twisting the word "all". Nobody needs an explanation of what "all" means... So, do not adopt a weird view of "all", because your definition of draw would lead to universalism in John 12. You need to revisit what "draw" means.
@Sozo you can cite this verse all day long, it will not solve the problem you have with the word DRAW.
Wow, what an incredible presentation, thank you!
for those who sitll struggle with this subject, know that there are pretty serious and devout scholars that disagree with Piper. He puts it in such a black and white way and talks with such a high level of confidence, that you get scared even to dare to see what's out there. But the truth is that there is no consensus about that matter and you can hold to a different take on that and STILL be a christian.
That's the beauty of Christianity: everyone disagrees, but everyone gets to be right. The Bible backs everyone up too.
All biblical's scholars talk like this. MacArthur's hubris makes Piper look like a wilting flower.
@MrAndyhdz to say that "all biblical scholars talk like this" by taking McArthur shows that you need to go a bit beyond pastors that hold a phd. Perhaps we can agree that McArthur's phd served only to inflate his ego, but no academic relevance whatsoever.
Notice how Piper pretends to answer the question, but doesn't. He really only perpetuates the confusion by stating the same dissonant situation which makes people ask the question in the first place.
Who so ever call 's on Lord and believes for by Grace you are saved through faith then you become one of the elect
Tear down the strongholds of the devil that keep men from finding God. The kingdom of darkness is set up for that very purpose, to keep us from finding the TRUTH which in turn would create great hindrances to it's evil purposes.
Mankind needs all the help it can get to survive and much more intervention individually to be saved.
Like R. C. Sproul used to say, some will get mercy, some will get justice!
No-one will get justice if God made them so they had no choice but to sin. That's injustice.
@@philipbenjamin4720
Romans 9:17-20
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
@@ssstankkka For a reading of Romans 9 which doesn't amount to concluding that God creates people only to hate them - making him the author of evil (while according to the Calvinist remaining unchanging in mercy) see either or both of the videos below:
ua-cam.com/video/GOA1p3NaJ1c/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/7y4yjSwEkfY/v-deo.html
@@ssstankkka And see also the video below on hardening.
ua-cam.com/video/1QWoSqOCPL8/v-deo.html
I really don't know how you conclude from that R. C. Sproul quote that God created men to hate them. We are sinners because we are the children of Adam and Eve and we are made after their likeness. No one got a choice before being conceived into this world to decide to be a sinner or not. By the justice of God, we deserve punishement. God saves some from that punishement, hence exercising his mercy, but we all deserve to die according to justice.
The question to ask is who are the Non-Elect? No one knows, only God. Salvation is for everyone! It is our duty to preach the Gospel to everyone on earth.. Thank you Pastor
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 NKJV
@The Righteousness of God In Christ Jesus You believe a false gospel.
The gospel means “good news”. The gospel is the proclamation of who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only. The entire Bible (Old testament and New Testament) foreshadows and proclaims who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only (John 5:39, Luke 24:44).
Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), fully God and fully man (John 1:1 & 1:14) and second person in the Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17).
The gospel is God’s testimony concerning Jesus as revealed in the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit which proclaims how Jesus the Christ (John 1:41, Matthew 16:16) was born of a virgin (Matthew 1:23) and born under the law to redeem His elect who were under the law and save His elect from their sins (Matthew 1:21, Galatians 4:4).
God’s elect /sheep are the people past, present and future from every tribe, tongue and nation God actively chose to redeem/ justify/save based on Christ. God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world was laid according to the good pleasure of His will for His glory (Revelations 5:9, Ephesians 1:4-5). God actively created and chose a people from every tribe, tongue and nation before they were born for salvation whom God has always loved because of Christ and only Christ (Romans 8). God’s elect are vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory to make known the riches of His glory (Romans 9). God’s elect/sheep are God’s chosen vessels of mercy that are Jews and Gentiles because of Christ. (John 10, Romans 9:23-26, Hosea 2:23)
God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). God’s law is holy and good (Romans 7:12). The law of God demands perfection in word, thought, and deed at all times (James 2:10). The law was given through Moses (John 1:17). The law condemned all mankind and brought knowledge of sin (Romans 3:19-20). All people are under sin and none are righteous (Romans 3:9-18). Sin entered the world through Adam and death through sin and death spread to all mankind because all sinned. (Romans 5:12-13).
Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb without blemish (1 Peter 1:19) for His elect by God’s sovereign grace (1 Corinthians 5:7). Just as the Israelites were released from Egypt after the death of the firstborn (Exodus 11-13) - Jesus Christ the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) justified all His elect at the cross from the wrath of God(Romans 5:9-11). Jesus willingly went to the cross (Philippians 2:8) and offered one sacrifice for all time for His elect He sanctified (Hebrews 10:11-14) as their representative and High priest. Jesus was crucified for the elect’s sin and raised for their justification (Romans 4:25). It pleased God the Father to crush His only begotten Son( Isaiah 53:10) and God the Father accepted Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on behalf of His sheep( Acts 2:23) . Jesus paid His elect’s sin debt and there is now no condemnation for those who are married to Christ (Romans 7-8).
By Christ’s knowledge He justified all His elect (Isaiah 53:11) and finished His mission (John 19:30). All of God’s sheep will believe God’s testimony concerning Christ because Jesus justified them by His perfect sacrifice on the cross. Not one sheep Jesus died for will perish. Jesus is the good shepherd. Faith(believing God’s testimony concerning Jesus) is the fruit of what Jesus accomplished for His sheep. God’s sheep are righteous before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ provided at the cross as prophesied in Psalm 32 and fulfilled in John 19. All Jesus died for are regenerated at God’s appointed time to believe God’s testimony concerning Christ on who Christ is and what He did at the cross( Acts 13:48).
Michael you believe a false gospel.The gospel means “good news”. The gospel is the proclamation of who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only. The entire Bible (Old testament and New Testament) foreshadows and proclaims who Jesus is and what He did for His elect only (John 5:39, Luke 24:44).
Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), fully God and fully man (John 1:1 & 1:14) and second person in the Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17).
The gospel is God’s testimony concerning Jesus as revealed in the Holy Scriptures by the Holy Spirit which proclaims how Jesus the Christ (John 1:41, Matthew 16:16) was born of a virgin (Matthew 1:23) and born under the law to redeem His elect who were under the law and save His elect from their sins (Matthew 1:21, Galatians 4:4).
God’s elect /sheep are the people past, present and future from every tribe, tongue and nation God actively chose to redeem/ justify/save based on Christ. God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world was laid according to the good pleasure of His will for His glory (Revelations 5:9, Ephesians 1:4-5). God actively created and chose a people from every tribe, tongue and nation before they were born for salvation whom God has always loved because of Christ and only Christ (Romans 8). God’s elect are vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory to make known the riches of His glory (Romans 9). God’s elect/sheep are God’s chosen vessels of mercy that are Jews and Gentiles because of Christ. (John 10, Romans 9:23-26, Hosea 2:23)
God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). God’s law is holy and good (Romans 7:12). The law of God demands perfection in word, thought, and deed at all times (James 2:10). The law was given through Moses (John 1:17). The law condemned all mankind and brought knowledge of sin (Romans 3:19-20). All people are under sin and none are righteous (Romans 3:9-18). Sin entered the world through Adam and death through sin and death spread to all mankind because all sinned. (Romans 5:12-13).
Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb without blemish (1 Peter 1:19) for His elect by God’s sovereign grace (1 Corinthians 5:7). Just as the Israelites were released from Egypt after the death of the firstborn (Exodus 11-13) - Jesus Christ the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) justified all His elect at the cross from the wrath of God(Romans 5:9-11). Jesus willingly went to the cross (Philippians 2:8) and offered one sacrifice for all time for His elect He sanctified (Hebrews 10:11-14) as their representative and High priest. Jesus was crucified for the elect’s sin and raised for their justification (Romans 4:25). It pleased God the Father to crush His only begotten Son( Isaiah 53:10) and God the Father accepted Jesus’ perfect sacrifice on behalf of His sheep( Acts 2:23) . Jesus paid His elect’s sin debt and there is now no condemnation for those who are married to Christ (Romans 7-8).
By Christ’s knowledge He justified all His elect (Isaiah 53:11) and finished His mission (John 19:30). All of God’s sheep will believe God’s testimony concerning Christ because Jesus justified them by His perfect sacrifice on the cross. Not one sheep Jesus died for will perish. Jesus is the good shepherd. Faith(believing God’s testimony concerning Jesus) is the fruit of what Jesus accomplished for His sheep. God’s sheep are righteous before God by the imputed righteousness of Christ provided at the cross as prophesied in Psalm 32 and fulfilled in John 19. All Jesus died for are regenerated at God’s appointed time to believe God’s testimony concerning Christ on who Christ is and what He did at the cross( Acts 13:48).
uh... you just disproved your own point with scripture. If no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws him salvation is NOT for everyone... only those whom the Father calls (elects).
@@wiredogdoghouse6006 Salvation is for everyone, its is for you to choose to receive it or not. The Bible clearly states that
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16 KJV
So He says whosoever, this means that anybody who believes. It is sure that not everybody will believe, The Father only draws those who believe. This does not mean that salvation is not for everyone! We have a free will to choose our path.
@@Mark-qd6ub Rather than concluding that i believe a false gospel why not ask God for wisdom when He meant His elect. God's elect are those who out of their own free will have chosen the path of righteousness. When He says no one can come to Him except the Father draws them, He is talking about those that believe. When you believe, He draws you to Him.
Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that had been made.
That pretty much sums it up! 😊
Anyone can trust in Jesus Christ.
I'm not a Calvinist nor do I limit God's convicting ministry of reconciliation in the hearts of sinners.
Thank you for explaining this. ❤✝️🕊🙌
You are taking good questions and giving Honest Biblical answers. I'm Subbed.
God doesn't want anyone to perish,even though they don't love God
But rest assured, PERISH THEY SHALL!
@@DD-ld1xqyou didn’t perish? Coming to faith is the day you perish. The day you perish is the day you come to faith. You were once an unbeliever. You heard the gospel & perished. Those who die in their sins will also perish the moment they come to faith. “That all who look upon the Son shall see Him & live.” Everyone will stand before the Son & look upon Him & live. All will confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Confession is made unto salvation.
@@BingoNamo-gb8pzI wasn't destroyed body and soul, no. That's reserved for unbelievers in the lake of fire. Don't be such a pedant.
Man so good explained.. never heard it like that before, thank you!
we all should struggle with this and I love how skillfully piper explains how our perceptions of the text is what is wrong not the text itself
Piper lied in this video.
The true gospel is the good news of the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, it is concerning who Christ is and what He did to save His elect only. The gospel includes the how and why, which can only be seen by faith.
It is a message that declares how the eternal Son of God came down, took on a body of sinless flesh (John 1:14) as He was born of a virgin (Mat 1:23). He was both God and man in one Person.
He was born under the Law to keep and fulfill it (Mat 5:18, Gal 4:4). He did that, not for Himself, but for all those He represented because they could not keep it themselves. The word of God calls these people the elect or His sheep, among several other names.
His obedient life also included the part of dying. He took on the sin of His people as both a Substitute and Representative of those people. The Bible said He was "made to be sin" (II Cor 5:21) and the way that was done is by God imputing (legally reckoned or charged to the account of) sin to Christ. That means all the sin of all those people God chose was "laid on Him" (Isaiah 53:6). This sin was legally transferred to His account and He then owned it in such a way to be guilty of it all.
God the Father poured out His wrath and hatred toward sin on His Son and had pleasure (Isaiah 53:10) in doing so, in that, He was completely satisfied in Christ as a Sacrifice that met all the demands of His strict Law and inflexible justice. Christ finished the work of paying the penalty of the Law and then said " It is finished" (John 19:30). He secured salvation for all God’s chosen people that would even be born. His resurrection is evidence of the acceptance of His sacrifice to the Father.
The combined work of His obedience to the Law and His obedience unto death on the cross was considered establishing righteousness. This is what one of the Old Testament prophets prophesied as "bringing in an everlasting righteousness" (Daniel 9:24) as Christ died effectually and exclusively for those chosen of God before the world began (Eph 1:4).
This righteousness is what God imputes to His people in the context of giving the life to believe in Christ. This puts them in a state called "Justification" and as a result they are eternally secure, in Christ. This is the gospel (Rom 1:16-17).
All this takes place in such a way to show God as both a God of justice and a Savior. This is how grace reigns through righteousness (Rom 5:21)
That was just godless dribble.
Great questioin/response
Thank you
Praise GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!!
Reading some of the Parables regarding elections in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John can help clear things up
That's a gorgeous answer! The Lord woos everybody through the Gospel and natural means. He is no less gracious and merciful if a person rejects that wooing. They have effectively made their choice. I just pray that everyone will call on The Lord while He still can be found lovingly pursuing them.
The contradiction is clear...if all people are born totally depraved and have no way of coming to God unless God sovereigly and effectually 'elects' them they can not be held accountable for their sin because they have no 'choice' to do otherwise. as Calvin himself said the preaching of the gospel is fruitless to the non-elect. There is no choice to do other than what the sinful nature determines them to be and so no moral accountability for those choices.
First, no one is innocent, both the elect and non-elect. Forgiveness and repentance are the only difference. Second, the parable in Matthew 13:23-30 shows us only God can discern between the two groups. It's clearly above our pay grade as mankind to distinguish because we would inadvertently uproot the precious wheat when we try to gather up the tares. The Lord tells us to let them grow up together until the harvest. Everyone should be shared the Gospel for the same reason, we can't tell before harvest time which is which.
Amen, thank you Pastor John 🙏
In this video Piper in essence says that *up is down* and *black is white* and then surrounds these blatant contradictions in a lot of theological language so it's more digestible. *God only gives the ability to repent to some but those who don't repent are blameworthy.* -- I cannot possibly think of a better excuse to give to the "non-elect" than the excuse Piper gives to them here.
1. God hated the elect before birth
2. God determined their every sinful desire and action
3. God determined their total inability to believe and respond to God
4. God commands them to repent while refusing to give them an ability to
5. God then condemns them to eternal hell fire for not doing the very thing he decisively caused them to do, wanted them to do and unchangeably decreed them to do
And yet... *"It's their fault."*
He is calling up down, black white, and blanketing an objectively obvious injustice and contradiction in a lot of theological language so that it sounds like he is providing an answer to this question while in actuality he is simply re-stating the need for this question to be asked in the first place.
I love Piper and I believe he is a good man. But this is absurd and untenable on so many levels. >>> ua-cam.com/video/7d1pk9Omfak/v-deo.html
Exactly!! You described perfectly the grotesque, evasive double-speak Piper does in this so-called "answer."
Wait, read your own item 1 to yourself. I believe you meant to type "the non-elect." lol. Also, I went to the link to your video, and I commented quite a bit in reply to others' comments there. You're wrong about Calvinism; it's purely Biblical, and just because Piper does a horrible job in not actually answering the question here, doesn't negate Calvinism nor the doctrine of limited atonement. I happen to think Piper just chickened out, was afraid of the blowback/loss of popularity if he stuck to actual TULIP doctrine. Even Calvin himself waffled on the issue when he was attacked over it. But that's typical of humans. People in general tend more toward the feel-good "God is love" false gospel than the actual Biblical "God is wrath and hatred and mercy and love" true gospel.
Salvation is a message. Not a choice. Not an ultimatum. It’s God declaring He saved you by His grace through His Son. Jesus is the universal way truth & life. All come to the father thru Him. “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN unto Me.”
“Through 1 Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN resulting in justification of life.”
Repent confess your wrong doing with one another and be saved through the BLOOD of JESUS.
Godly repentance, not Judas repentance.
Amen.👍👍👍 “Non-elects” just are those who don't really trust in GOD The LORD, The SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Since some sinners or "believers" love and do sins more than trusting in GOD. And the devils also against GOD and always try to kill human by tempting them to evils. Anyone who really trusts in GOD can be saved by JESUS CHRIST. And we can have abundant eternal life if we trust in and obey the Trinity GOD sincerely. For those who never have chance to hear the gospel, I can't judge they are “non-elects”. Only GOD judge in the eternity. I am just a blessed sinner and I know that everyone needs the Precious JESUS CHRIST and Christians have to preach the Good News as much as we can. And I know the Lovingly GOD is totally Righteous and Holy. GOD's judge is the best and much better than any human. Don't be afraid, Don't be doubtful, Don't against and refuse the Salvation from JESUS CHRIST, But Only Trust In ADONAI The GOD. Praise our HEAVENLY FATHER. Shalom. Happy Christmas ⛪🎄🎹🎶🏴🌎🌏🌍💞
Salvation is a message. Not a choice. Not an ultimatum. It’s God declaring He saved you by His grace through His Son. Jesus is the universal way truth & life. All come to the father thru Him. “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN unto Me.”
“Through 1 Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN resulting in justification of life.”
@@BingoNamo-gb8pz Greatly appreciate Your reply. My simplistic answer is still the above even though this topic is not so easy🙂Stay well & Shalom 杉哢🌍🌏🌎✡️🕎✝️☮️🏥🕊️🎄🌴♻️🌳✨🌤️💒😇🌙
In the NT, the vessel of wrath is Jerusalem:
[Deu 32:34-35 NASB95] 34 'Is it not laid up in store with Me, Sealed up in My treasuries? 35 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'
[Luk 21:20-24 NASB95] 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
[Heb 10:30 NASB95] 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
The vessel of mercy is the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (IE: the Northern Kingdom):
[Mat 15:21-28 NASB95] 21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and [began] to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and [began] to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
The vessels of wrath were hardened in their unbelief:
[Jhn 12:40 NASB95] 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
"Hardening" is a term from pottery. Clay is malleable until it is "fired." Once fired, it cannot be reworked. God made murderers of them instead:
[Mat 23:31-38 NASB95] 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure [of the guilt] of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? 34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
This hardening was lifted when Christ and his raptured saints on white horses appeared over Jerusalem at the siege of 70 AD/CE:
[Mat 23:39 NASB95] 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"
[Zec 12:10 NASB95] 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
[Rev 1:7 NASB95] 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
[Rom 11:11-27 NASB95] 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will [their] acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece [of dough] is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, [remember that] it is not you who supports the root, but the root [supports] you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Per Revelation, the mass conversion of Jews took place as Jerusalem burned.
Applying the paradigm of Romans 9-11 to modern times is inappropriate.
Jesus Christ went to the cross and now lives to set sinful you free from death and hell. Repent and turn your heart to Him before it’s too late. If He calls your heart, say yes!
Fuck Jesus! There is no hate like Christian love.
This most certainly does not address the question and it's extremely frustrating. How is someone who is not elect ever going to humble themselves before God? THEY HAVE NO CHANCE!
Good question. It will be done via the symbolic and temporary Lake of Fire:
---------------
"[The Lake of Fire's] 'sulfur' originally referred to fire from heaven ... it was used in pagan religious rites for purification. Pre-Roman civilizations used it as a medicine, a fumigant, a bleaching agent and in incense. And the Romans used sulfur or fumes from its combustion as an insecticide, and to purify a sick room to cleanse its air of evil.
The term translated torment originally referred to the action of an inspector who sought to test the quality of gold and silver coins. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving.
For the apostle John who authored the book of Revelation, and for his readers in the ancient world, the Lake of Fire was not a place of unending torture. It was not a place with no purpose other than to inflict pain. *It was a refiner's fire. Its purpose was to purify and cleanse from evil in the age to come. God is good. His punishments have a good purpose.* "
-- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017
---------------
"The original idea of [torment ( _basanizo_ in Greek)] is 'to put to the test by rubbing on a touchstone,' to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. The meaning and usage harmonizes with the idea of divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change in the sufferer ... Sulphur [brimstone] was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's _Iliad_ [about a quarter of the way through Book 16], one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with [brimstone]. The verb derived from _Theion_ is _Theioo_ , which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (see _Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon,_ 1897 Edition). *To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.'* ”
-- Charles Pridgeon, _Is Hell Eternal?,_ 1931
---------------
"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? *For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.* He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and *he will purify* the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord."
--Malachi 3:2-3, 400 B.C.
---------------
The Total Victory of Christ videos go into more detail, especially "Refined in the Lake of Fire." (15 minutes) God bless!
Also, why the insistence that "sovereignty" means meticulous theistic determinism? Are we saying that the only way God can accomplish his purposes is to determine human actions? So the only way God can win is if he plays both sides of the chessboard? That seems to be a very narrow understanding of God's omnipotence.
All who love Jesus Christ will be faithful to Him.
To answer that lady’s question in a simple manner John 3:16.
What would have been nice is a yes or no..
@@pisstakecentral yes, the problem is truths in the bible are so profound that sometimes they are many angles to see it :(
Amen
@@omni1562 reread his name again
@@troywright359 irrelevant, pre judgment isn't needed here
Thank you for the explanation 😊
If you answer the call of Jesus, you are the elect. If you deny Jesus, you are not elect.
I was perplexed for many years why I could accept the Gospel without any proof but so many couldn't see what I clearly saw. Then I watched this video where it's said that the sovereign grace of God enabled me to believe. The the next part, loving sin more than God, is a struggle I have. I have two natures at war with one another. I both love and hate the sinful things I do. For example, I drink too much alcohol on occasion, stop, and then come back to it again. I even look forward to a worldly celebration, knowing it's wrong, and then do it. And then I'm back in deep reflection over what I've done and pray yet again for my will to align with God's will. From what I understand, the Christian life is a constant struggle, a sometimes excruciating hell on earth, until we receive our reward.
I've noticed that when calvinist explains the arminian view they often use a strawman argument. Arminians do the same when they argue against the calvinist view. I believe we would do good to drop the labels and just preach the text.
Calvin wouldn’t even know what you were talking about if you told him about tulip or Calvinism. Arminians had 5 points and so took 5 points from his work in the the 16th century and named it after him. Everyman must be drawn to God, it’s very clear In the Bible, and to repent he must draw you, otherwise your still hostile and would never repent, we see these people constantly. The reason people like Arminianism is because it makes them feel like they are the captain of their own soul, really it’s just trying to take glory from God and make you a part of his finished work. God is the soul reason you are saved. We should just be thankful and get over our egos. You want a book that will completely persuade you with scripture? Read John Owens death to death, and it’s free online. Calvinism is biblical and it was biblical before it was ever name Calvinism. What we need to do is change the name so people realize it’s not a violation of following a man, a really common strawman argument.
I once heard two preachers arguing about theology and one made the statement that he doesn't label himself like others do. The other preacher said "you had better label yourself or others will do it for you".. The reason we use labels is to distinguish good and sound theology from theology that isn't. To say that we don't use labels and just preach the text is to say the same thing as practically every other person who claims to have God honoring theology when in fact we know that a lot don't.. Better to label one self than to be labeled by others wrongly. It has nothing to do with "following a man" as I've often heard it put. That's an elementary way of seeing it.. It's to identify with a system of theology. Theology matters.. In fact it's a matter of life and death.. While the argument can be made that there could have been better coinage for these labels, we shouldn't lose sight of the forest because of the trees..
@@15RunAway Absolutely.
@@15RunAway the only label I care about is Bible believing Christian. The Bible teaches both the sovereignty of God and the limited freewill of man. To be overly zealous of either side will lead to an unbalanced view.
@@fantheflame304 Did you read my post? Your reply doesn't see like you did, or didn't understand the logic of it or something. Not trying to be contentious. Just seems like you missed something. My post wasn't even about what the bible teaches.
The promises are great TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME. This isn't a trivial or small feat. When you are an overcomer God opens the doors of Heaven to you. It's a privilege to serve Jesus
Inspiring thought.
Ephesians 2:8-10
Here's what I think is the bottom line.
We're told to preach the Gospel to all.
All are commanded to repent and believe.
We cannot grasp fully anything of God as we are finite and He is infinite.
We fearfully and humbly seek to understand God's Word and trust Him to help us as Jesus has given us The Helper.
It is one thing to try to understand, but it is easy in doing so to become contentious, unfaithful, hard, causing strife, etc.
If the answer one way or the other would change how you obey/disobey the commandments we are given, you have quite a problem.
Ezekiel 22:30 KJV.
His words ooze with emotion and passion. While emotions themselves are meant to be felt, passions are what we do battle against.
God is everywhere present and fillest all things. We participate in his election. We are all in his image.
Amen.
Salvation is a message. Not a choice. Not an ultimatum. It’s God declaring He saved you by His grace through His Son. Jesus is the universal way truth & life. All come to the father thru Him. “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN unto Me.”
“Through 1 Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN resulting in justification of life.”
If you want to repent and come to Jesus you are elect. Honor him by opening the Bible every single day and get to know him as Lord and Savior. Ask God to give you a discerning ear not to fall for false teaching. If you’re truly dedicated to knowing the Bible, God will honor you with discernment. Your desire to really know Him glorifies him!
Acts 17:26-31
'And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”'
Rom. 9...John 1 to start...John 3 the Spirit does what He wants in bringing those to the new birth. No one is able to come to unless it has been granted to him by my father. No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and to whom He chooses to reveal Himself too. So go and be witnesses to all the world and I will be with you always.
John 12:32
Quick question. If someone is not predestined, then how can they come to God through faith if there is a such thing as total depravity?
I'm worried I love God and hope that I am saved through His Son Jesus. But now I am feeling insecure!
You are save by faith In Christ
You are saved by faith. Pick up the shield of faith to protect yourself from those fiery darts from the enemy.
I feel the same. Jesus is EVERYTHING to me! I love Him and think about Him most of the day, talking to Him often. And now this pastor is saying that I may not be saved because God didn't choose me? So I live my life for Christ, trusting in His blood atonement, thinking I have forgiveness of sins, only to end up in hell???? This just seems so wrong.
@@karollisa7022 “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13)
Believe the Word.
Yes, that’s the awful thing about Calvinism. Calvinists believe no one can really know if they are saved or not.
Jesus is the way, believe in Him!!!
But he doesn’t answer the question here: If we believe that repentance is a gift of grace, then all who don’t repent are unable to repent because God has not given them that ability…”God must grant them repentance”
He seldom answers these difficult question. I like his eschatology, but he is often all hat and no cowboy answering questions like this.
“He who is forgiven much loves much.” Is this why God loves us? Because we have to forgive God for all the evil He created & allowed into the world & He refuses to give those who are evil the ability to change just so we can forgive Him? This is how the Calvinists always depict God. Some evil monster who refuses to change us all so we all continue to suffer as a result. I have to love everyone, forgive everyone, show mercy to everyone but God can punish them & torment them for eternity in hell despite being the one who created them & could have changed them with His love but refused to grant them mercy.
There is no mention of freewill anywhere in the Bible? God clearly holds us accountable to our actions. God is fully just. I struggle to understand how God could hold someone accountable for an action if He intended them to make it and they have no choice but to make do that action. I’ve grown up Armenian. Please could someone explain this to me.
My explanation:
You are correct. It's ridiculous. Calvinism is heresy.
Armenians believe God wants to save everyone, but He can only save those who choose to be saved.
Calvinists believe God can save everyone, but He does not want to therefore He chooses not to.
Universalists believe God can save everyone & He wants to save everyone therefore He chooses to save everyone.
Here is why I am a universalist:
Luke 3:6
Romans 5:18
Romans 10:6-13
Romans 11:32
Ephesians 4:6
Ephesians 4:25
Philippians 2:11
Colossians 1:16-20
1 Timothy 2:1-6
1 Timothy 4:10
2 Peter 3:8-10
1 Corinthians 15:20-28
1 John 2:2
_"God now commands_ *all men everywhere* _to repent"_ Acts 17:30 God is not calling you to something He hasn't also enabled you to do. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees like John Piper.
Drop your man-centered theology. Moral responsibility does NOT imply ability.
@@alihoussney7870 Yes, it does. And that's God centered, not man centered. Calvinism is a cult. That is man-centered.
@eeman1335 you wish.
@@eeman1335 what about the GREATEST command, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength????? Huh??? Who on Earth can do that for a split second of any day???????
@@alihoussney7870 In your own strength...impossible. The flesh profits nothing (John 6:63). However, _"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."_ -Phil 4:13
Pray Jesus will grant me repentance and faith. I’m 29. I guess he hated me before the universe begin
I DO pray that you will find repentance and faith, Amber.
God loves you, and you DO have the choice to accept Him or reflect Him. Don't listen to this false teaching known as Calvinism.
Don't listen to the nonsense calvinist stuff. Open your heart to God and pray for wisdom and mercy. Place your faith in God and repent of your sins and let God do the rest
Haven’t listened to the poscast; will do in a minute. But my answer would be that the non-elect never give repentance so much as a moment’s consideration. They are not in the slightest bit interested. At all.
A few hundred years ago, there were still parts of the world in which people hadn't heard of Jesus, and had no knowledge of the Christian gospel message. It might seem unfair that lots of people are born without any hope of salvation, but only sinners end up in hell. The difference between a sinner that goes to heaven and a sinner that goes to hell, is grace. It is by grace that we are saved. Grace is a gift, and God is free to give grace to whoever He chooses. I struggled with this truth for a few years. Now I'm amazed that God is willing to save ANY of us sinners!
those who never heard the Gospel, i believe God is the perfect judge, so i dont think these will be without mercy in some way.
We, the saved, are told to go out to tell all the world about Jesus’ message (Acts ch1 v8 and Mat ch28 v19-20). Also, Ezekiel ch3 vv.16-21 give us a dire warning about not telling people to repent; we must also tell them to believe in Jesus and ALL his teachings (John ch3 v16; 1st letter of John ch5 vv.7-12 and 2nd letter of John vv.9-11).
But the unbelievers are accountable even if nobody witnesses to them. How many churches do unbelievers drive past in their life? How many times do they hear the phrase jesus saves? How many art masterpieces do they view of jesus? How many pamplets do they find laying out in public telling of salvation that they quickly throw down? How many times do they see christmas cards and ignore the manger scene? Is not ezekiel 3:16 telling of an appointed prophet's responsibility to tell israel? Or do i misunderstand it?
@@KC-dr4qz Nobody told me anything during my life. One day when I wanted to know the truth. I found out about it and on the way to it encounter some demons also
Calvinist don’t understand they also believe in regeneration that we are dead and so depraved that we can’t believe until we are regenerated which we know is false and that scripture about hardening some means he can harden someone’s heart when he needs to like the pharaoh but they take it out of biblical context. If it was only for the elect then we wouldn’t even have to preach the gospel because God would just tell them in revelation or dreams and visions like he did the whole Bible the apostles paul Elijah Elisha Saul Samuel but we are told to preach the gospel to everyone and who so ever shall believe will be saved the gospel is the power unto our salvation. This teaching is very sound and very Good❤️🙏💯
To sum it up:
1. God has chosen a people for himself, not everyone, and in His sovereignty He has overcome His elect's resistance to Him
2. All who perish, perish because of their sin for which they are blameworthy and morally accountable
3. No one who wants Christ as their savior is lost (he carefully leaves out the part where Calvinists believe that only the elect are capable of wanting Christ as their savior due to irresistible grace - everyone else is dead in their sin and thus incapable of desiring God or placing their faith in Him)
4. No innocent people perish (a useless non-point, because within any Christian theological system, no one is innocent before God)
5. Man's moral accountability in sin is not negated by God's sovereignty in all things, including salvation
6. In other words, God's final and decisive governance in salvation is compatible with human moral accountability
7. The only reason people "reject the idea of God's sovereignty" is because they cannot reconcile sovereignty in salvation with human moral accountability. They therefore reject the notion of God's sovereignty by assuming an idolatrous pre-commitment to the notion of human free will.
8. "Free will" is not taught in Scripture. God's sovereignty and human moral accountability are, therefore they fit together with no contradiction (he does not even attempt an explanation at how this seeming contradiction could be possible, he just states it as a fact and leaves it to us to try and reconcile it since he is obviously incapable of reconciling it himself).
9. All are wooed and invited by God every day - whether through natural revelation, conscience, or Gospel truth. These revelations ARE their chance of salvation if only people would humble themselves (again he carefully leaves out the part where Total Depravity within Calvinism means that you are actually incapable of humbling yourself apart from the effectual call of God. He also leaves out the part where God has elected only some and says that God is wooing and inviting all.)
10. If you believe in God, this is only due to the sovereign and effectual call by means of God's grace
11. If you do not believe, it is only because of your own hardness (again leaving out the Calvinistic part where God determines all things - including human desires - and hardens who he wills)
So basically he just gave a uselessly verbose and more "theological" sounding restatement of the question, filled with contradictions, and no explanations. The listener who asked the question understood perfectly the implications of Calvinist doctrine, and while I appreciate Piper's attempt to soften Calvinism a bit, there is no getting away from the fact that if God is sovereign in salvation and only some are elect, this necessarily means that God has predestined some for reprobation without hope. Even Calvin himself did not flinch from this fact.
So if you are a Calvinist you have to believe that God ordains the circumstances of someone's birth (i.e. does not give them a choice in whether or not their soul comes into existence), knows full well that they will be born into sin through no fault of their own, knows full well that He does not intend to call them effectually, knows full well that he intends to destroy them in eternal conscious torment for the sin that He did not give them a choice about being born into, and that this predestining for reprobation, sin, judgement and destruction is a means by which He glorifies himself and puts His holiness on display. Also God is not abusive and wants all to be saved and is always outstretching his hands to everyone.
If any human behaved this way, we would put them in an institution. But not only is this okay for God, it is actually a demonstration of his holiness and perfection.
Calvinism in a nutshell.
What are you talking about ?
Exactly how can any sane person not see this these people are delusional
If you actually LISTEN to what John Piper is saying, he is addressing the concerns of people.
For example, you say "no one is innocent before God - a useless point because everyone has sinned (paraphrased)."
Don't you see? THAT is the fear of humans, that 'innocent' people might not go to heaven? It's important to reassure a CHRISTIAN, who he is responding to, that no seemingly innocent people are unelect. Yes, no one is innocent before God, everyone is a sinner, but that's not the main point here. You could turn everything into a huge sermon spinning off into every which way.
John responds giving context, but GENTLENESS. That's important. Sounds like you just wanted him to go "yes, unelected cannot repent in God. Next question." It's obvious by his reply what the answer is. But he ministers in a gentle way to someone who might be struggling.
You can speak the same truth in different ways to people. I'm sure others in with their assertion and abrasion would demand a instant quick 3 second answer. Perhaps they'd get it. But I feel you wouldn't be happy with the answer either way.
@@DashieNCheekie are you Christian? You'll find a lot more things than these delusional about God
Would it be better if God didn't know or He knew but still gave them an ineffective "free-will" that had no power to override anything? In the way I see it, either God is omniscient or He isn't. If you say God gives people free-will to decide to become saved or not, then the final roster of who will be saved is not fully updated or names are getting deleted everyday. When it says that angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner who repents then that's sort of a temporary party cause that sinner could then unrepent cause it's not a done-deal and angels are always in a state of flux not knowing whether someone is actually truly repenting or faking it. The Biblical view is that God knows those that are His (2 Timothy 2:19) and He knew them before the foundation of the earth (Ephesians 1:4) a hard teaching for a finite mind to comprehend, that rightfully draws ire from finite minds trying to ascertain the infinite. The far more comforting thing (which would be the unbiblical thing) would be to come up with a system that you can comprehend that helps you sleep better at night.
“who are you o man to question calvinistic cognitive dissonance invented by augustine from his former roots in gnosticism ?”
Great comment!😂
Thank you the clarity on answering this questions was very helpful. I hope you all had a Merry Christmas. God Bless.
What I hear is John Piper taking a Calvinist verse and answering it with a comfortable Armenian conclusion which feels like a relief ( because phew, God isn’t cruel, making some people destined for no option but hell)…. But it doesn’t explain the verse! In fact Piper’s conclusion contradicts the verse. I really can’t see how he can hold his Calvinist beliefs together with his hope and work for the lost…. Clearly he does, but I don’t get it, and I’m afraid this talk didn’t really help me get it.
So grace is resistible then… 😅 it would be contradictory to Calvin’s view on Irresistible grace…..
Because if everyone is wooed and invited by general revelation or the gospel, and they can choose to believe or not… than the grace of God is not forcefully made people to believe, like they don’t have any other option but to believe….
And if so… why God choose the elect at the first place? It doesn’t make any sense
I think the best view on this is the corporate salvation… God elect Christ… so whosoever believes in Him will be saved.
Thank you so much !
This is a question I’ve been contemplating recently. Just the other day I asked my Pastor and he recommended reading ‘Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God’ by JI Packer. Any thoughts on that book?
Yes, very good book for this issue. Slim, too!
Read the book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" by Ken Wilson, if you want to understand the history of this man-made doctrine.
Augustine got it from apostle Paul
@@MrNobodylj Augustine got it from the Manichaeans (Christian gnostics/neoPtatonists), a sect which he was part of for 10 years prior to his conversion to Christianity.
Though Augustine did say he repudiated gnosticism right after his conversion, he continued to refer to the Manichaeans as "brother". As be became older, he began incorporating more and more gnostic teachings in his writings. The stoic/deterministic philosophy of the Manichaeans was exactly mirrored in Augustine's writings regarding predestination.
Calvin got it from Augustine.
There is a multitude of research sources which bear this out. If you like, I can share some of them here.
@@genie2348 I'd love to hear some of your theology with scriptural backing
Here's who God will have mercy on:
" *God* has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. … From him and through him and to him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36a).
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, *but because of him who subjected it,* in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Romans 8:20-21).
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John 12:32, 17:2, Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36a, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2,17c, Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3, the Total Victory of Christ videos.
I always appreciate Pastor Piper’s heart. That being said, the more I’ve considered the predeterminism of Calvinism the more I think it’s unbiblical and wrong. There is only God’s grace in providing salvation from His end, not in making it possible only for some on our end. To say that all people are actually accountable and capable of obeying their conscience, repenting and having faith is a bit disingenuous because according to Calvinism 0.0000% of people will actually do this unless God effectually and irresistibly causes them to. And all the mental acrobatics in the world to try to harmonize God’s absolute sovereignty and man’s accountability because of their legitimate ability to naturally and freely respond ends up being a contradiction regardless of how many times it’s said that it’s not a contradiction. Either God is responsible or man is response-able.
Maybe you don’t see how wicked and rebellious man really is.
God bless,
SM
If we can choose God … don’t need a savior
@@MrNobodylj if we are elect from before the foundation of the world, we also don’t need a savior.
@@ShepherdMinistry we meet again 😂
@@WoodrowKlassen7 lol it appears so my friend. Let’s make this a brotherly convo. Anything I can pray for?
God bless,
SM
Matthew 13:30. We reach out to all because we do not know who the wheat are and who the tares are
It's a very hard message to consume, very hard indeed. Even though it be true, we still cry to God to have mercy upon those who reject Him. Obviously we (often) don't know who is definitely elect or not. But the idea that not everyone has a 'chance' worries us men of self determination.
A sobering realisation that God is absolute and sovereign, so sobering in fact that to ponder it more brings no happy answer for all, which depresses us.
Take comfort in the fact that God’s judgement will be perfect, right, and true, and that the lost will all be mercifully destroyed, not suffering eternal conscious torment as Satan has propagated for over a millennium. Trust God’s word, not the traditions of men and what they’ve told you. Scripture is clear from Genesis to Revelation that the “…wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23). God alone is immortal (1Timothy 6:16,) and so immortality is a gift for those in Christ, not something we already possess, and it’s just a matter of where we spend eternity. John 3:16 doesn’t state that the options are between everlasting life in either Heaven or Hell, but between everlasting life, or everlasting death, perishing.
It was Satan who first introduced the doctrine of the immortality of the soul when he told Eve she surely would not die, but become immortal, and that lie is still being taught in churches to this day. God had an angel guard the Tree of Life specifically so that they would not become immortal! Yet in Revelation, Jesus states “To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God.” So, the consequence of their sin was being cast out, prevented from eating of the fruit from the Tree of Life, and as a result so died. And so we all die, and hence Jesus paid the price for our sins by dying, and in rising, conquering death, the first fruits of the promise, that we may inherit everlasting life.
Neither Paul nor any other apostle ever once mentions nor warns anyone at any time of such a place of eternal conscious torment. In Acts, many are shown the way of salvation, yet not one at any time is warned of an alternative being eternal conscious torment in Hell. That’s a major oversight if the traditional view is correct. The word “Hell” as traditionally defined appears nowhere in Scripture. “Hades” and “Sheol” merely refer to the grave, while “Gehenna” is only used by Jesus when speaking with Jews in or around Jerusalem, as it was an actual place where all manners of filth were continually being destroyed by fire, reduced to ash.
Scripture states that the wicked will be as ash, as stubble, as wax before a flame, be as if they never were, be no more forever, be left neither root nor branch, suffer the punishment of everlasting *destruction* , be consumed, perish, be destroyed, vanish like the splendor of meadows, be destroyed both body and soul, the soul that sins shall die, etc. etc. For the hundreds of verses which speak to the lost being completely, absolutely, and permanently destroyed, there are a small number of proof texts used to support eternal conscious torment, and the main ones come from the middle chapters of Revelation-the least literal in all of Scripture by far.
ECT is a doctrine of demons, which maligns the character of our gracious and loving God, who, yes, is a God of wrath, too, but His wrath from Genesis to Revelation is always shown to be absolute destruction. Martin Luther listed the doctrine of the immortality of the soul among the “…monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals-“ He saw clearly in Scripture that immortality was conditional upon being in Christ. Wycliffe and Tyndale who first translated Scripture into English also saw clearly in Scripture that the immortality of the soul was a pagan lie, first spread by Satan himself in the Garden. It’s time for the Reformation work be complete and we truly trust in Scripture alone, and not the traditions of men. “Convince me by Scripture, or not at all!” -Martin Luther
Calvinism is hard, because it's unbiblical. The gospel is good news
@eddiesprain8243 Judas had a.chance to be saved?
The Lamb of GOD who is saviour of the WHOLE world.Meditate on this.
Isn't it 100% God's will and 100% free will and it is because of God's character that that is possible.
When God gives repentance, a person has become the elect.
God repents for you?
@@mattr.1887 Yes, bro. De. 32:36 is just one scriptural example of many times God tells His people that if repentance haps, He must do it on our behalf. When there are cases where God tells man to repent, it is either that He has already done it for us, or to show them that they cannot repent. It all depends on whether you believe in the free will of man or as Luther put it, The Bondage of the Will. In Jer. 10:23, it says that it is not in man that walk-through to direct his own steps.
God gives repentance to all because God is kind to all & His kindness leads all men to repentance, each in his own order.
@BingoNamo-gb8pz I will have to study to answer what you say about God giving repentance to all. But indeed, the goodness of God does lead to repentance. But there is the cycle of unsaved men who sin, then repent, and repeat the process over and over again. This is what error the Catholic Church thrives on to keep people coming back and confessing their sins. But true Christians repent once unto born againness, and need not ever repent again because they cease all sinning at conversion.
If the non-elect were to repent, surely they'd be the elect?
So by definition, they are the elect to begin with. Since God knows all future, past and present
The nonelect won't repent, though.
@@solideogloria6569 Exactly my point.
I love Pastor John, but his answer here skips right over the fact that God 'hardens' the hearts of the non-elect. If we take the text at face-value, they cannot believe because they've been hardened. Why are they hardened? Because God hardens whom He will.
It would seem, then, that due to God's hardening of their hearts they never got a real chance to believe on Him and be saved. They can't be 'wooed' by revelation, through the Bible or nature. They can never respond because God has removed that ability from them.
This is an illogical answer, and John is skirting around the issue of double-predestination. In the calvinistic system of faith, if God doesn't choose you for salvation then He "made you for destruction" and therefore predestined you for destruction... that is not, however, the point I believe is being made in Romans 9 but it is the logical conclusion of Mr. Piper's position
That is exactly what Romans 9 teaches, that some have been prepared/made for destruction. It is a simple teaching but one that requires deep understanding.
I’m not sure what would concern me more. A God who desires “all” to be saved, yet hasn't the ability to achieve that desire or a God that has the ability to save “all” yet chooses not to.
Peace
Insightful analysis. Thank you very much
I Certainly Hope So! Praying For My Unsaved Family Members And Friends.🌺🌺🌺🙏🙏🙏🇨🇦🇮🇱♾️🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲🦅🗽‼️
I hope you are as encouraged by this as I am ...
Here's how it will end for you, for those you're praying for, for me, and for everybody:
"... at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue *confess* that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11)
"...every knee shall bow to me [God], and every tongue shall *confess* to God." (Romans 14:11)
"Turn to me and be *saved* , all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall *swear allegiance* . Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. In the Lord *all* the offspring of Israel shall be *justified* and shall *glory* ." (Isaiah 45:22-25)
The Greek word for *confess* in the two NT verses, "exomologeomai," is also used by Christ to praise His Father in Matthew 11:25 & Luke 10:21. It's never used in any verse to mean forced praise, which is what many are forced by their theology to argue it means here. The implications are enormous.
The righteous will inherit heaven, while the unrighteous will first have to spend some time in the lake of fire being punished and purified. (Rev. 21:7-8, Malachi 3:2-3, Rev. 22:14-15,17c)
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ua-cam.com/video/p79qrM2JYxQ/v-deo.html
Definitely pray; however; If the prayers yield good results (salvation). The difference is "knowing" or "not knowing" of the cross of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. All are going to heaven because of Christ
It's good that Desiring God chooses to answer a Calvinism question. However as usual the discussion never gets to the heart of the issue.
He says "no innocent person perishes". But that's not the issue - the issue is was their non-innocence due to God being the author of their evil?
I wonder - will we EVER get to the point where John Piper addresses the issues at the foundations of Calvinism? It seems not. It's as if he is predestined to think only about ideas which are part of his worldview instead being able to see the views of others and respond to them.
If there a lots of questions about Romans 9 why not make a video where John Piper presents his view as to its meaning and also explains why the non-Calvinist view that this passage is about God wanting to harden those who are ethnic Israel in order to INCLUDE both Jews and Gentiles in salvation - is not a more coherent reading - in the light of God being unchanging in mercy and never externally influenced.
Has no-one yet asked John Piper - the world's most prominent Calvinist - how if God predestines all that happens he can be anything other than the author of evil?
"the issue is was their non-innocence due to God being the author of their evil? "But scripture says God is not the author of evil. James 1:13-14.
The easiest way to understand it is that all men deserve hell but God only intervenes to save the elect.
@@Romans8-9 Hello,
Thanks for your reply.
Your solution doesn't help. With your solution the problem becomes bigger - since God then becomes responsible for making everyone unable to turn to him instead of just the non-elect (even if he then reverses his decision with some). It amounts to his making God the author of evil across the board.
Which then contradicts the verses that you helpfully raise - James 1:13-14 - these verses PROVING that Calvinism cannot be correct.
To have a coherent view we must be able to explain how our view is not inconsistent with ANY contentious passage in the Bible (the contentious verses being put forward by both Calvinist and non-Calvinist).
So for example the Calvinist would need to explain how Acts 10:34-35 is compatible with their view (I have not managed to find any example of the Calvinist addressing these verses online):
ESV
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him".
I hope that you will allow my words to change your path if you need to change path - that you will not consider yourself to have a view until you can explain how it conforms with ALL difficult passages. As part of holding myself to that standard I offer you the chance to present verses which you believe are incompatible with the non-Calvinist position.
I found the following video to be very helpful in understanding how predestination can be perfectly compatible with non-Calvinism:
ua-cam.com/video/48q-i3JuLUk/v-deo.html
And I found the following videos present a reading of Romans 9 which makes more sense - since they reveal a God seeking to INCLUDE people in his salvation plan instead of exclude - which is the picture throughout all of scripture.
ua-cam.com/video/7y4yjSwEkfY/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/7y4yjSwEkfY/v-deo.html
@@philipbenjamin4720 Absolutely. I love John Piper and his teaching, except on this topic. It doesn't make sense.
And they never really answer the question, are people sinning because they're predestined to sin from eternity or not?
There was no sinful human before the foundation of the world, unless God sovereignly willed it.
@@mofe620 Yes Mofe, I love his teaching too. It's really important to say (what we like and what we simply cannot make sense of). I wish he would break ranks - just come out and say that he got things wrong in this area - and be freed to help a generation of emerging pastor/teachers around the world. Wouldn't that be awesome?
Merry Christmas mate.
@@philipbenjamin4720Yeahh, Merry Christmas 🎉🎄🌟
For me, it all comes down to this; If regeneration precedes faith (Episode 1774), how could someone come to want the things of God if he was not regenerated? It seems to me that this is our default position, to be dead in our trespasses. We go on living our lives the way we always had and we don't come to faith. As Paul said in 1 Cor 6:11, "and such were some of you". Which one of us was inclined to God before the Holy Spirit opened our hearts? Not me.
What I hear is hyper calvanist exegesis but with an Armenian conclusion! God is wooing everyone every day and his will is irresistible but only some believe and only those who resist God's will go to hell. I listen as carefully as I am able and that is what I hear John saying. No matter. John desires and devotes himself to saving the lost. Thank you Pastor John for putting your loving servant heart on display.
Romans 9:22-23 is one of the most mistranslated passages of Scripture. This issue is covered in the Harvard Theological Review Article, "Vessels of Wrath and God's Pathos: Potter/Clay Imagery in Rom 9:20-23". Romans 9 as a whole is very often misunderstood. Realize that Paul addresses ethnic Israelite believers from Romans 7:1 up until 11:13. Knowing who Paul is addressing changes how to understand these chapters. As for Romans 9:19, the tense in Greek is in the 'empirical perfect tense' (ἀνθέστηκεν). This means the question is properly translated, "For who has resisted His will?" The answer to this question? Israel has resisted. That's the narrative of the Old Testament. Stephen says as much in Acts 7:51. Also, consider Ephesians 1. This chapter is commonly mistaught because modern Christians do not know who "us/we" is in Ephesians 1. By "we/us", Paul is referring to "the apostles". Paul uses "we/us" in the introduction to Ephesians 1 just like he uses "we/us" in Colossians 1, Galatians 1, Romans 1, 1 Thessalonians 1, and 2 Thessalonians 1. Understanding that "we/us" is the apostles in Ephesians 1 completely changes how to understand Ephesians 1. Look at 1:12, "we who were the first to hope in Christ" is the apostles. Also consider 1:8-9, "In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will." Who did God make known the mysteries? The apostles! The Bible says so in John 14:26, 1 Peter 1:10-12, Luke 10:21-24, Matthew 13:10-17, and 1 Corinthians 2:7-16. To bring this all together, the Doctrine of Predestination taught since the Reformation is the result of not knowing Paul's audience in Romans 9 and not knowing that "we/us" is about the apostles in Ephesians 1.
In order for man to be “accountable”, he must have a “free will” to choose. We have a will and the scriptures address both our willfulness and unwillingness.
Amen its a hopeless doctrine they preach. 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4.
@@lionofjudahlambofgod9132
Would God be unjust to save no one but allow all to suffer the wage of sin: eternal death? The hope is found in Christ alone, by grace alone-completely unmerited, undeserved, unattainable by human will or exertion. Eternal conscious torment is a doctrine of devils found nowhere in Scripture. The wage of sin is death. God guarded the Tree of Life specifically so that Adam and Eve would not have immortality, and so the wage of their sin was separation from God, and final separation in death. In Revelation, Jesus states “To the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God.” Neither Paul nor any other apostle ever once warns of nor mentions a place of eternal conscious torment. In Acts, many are told the way of salvation and had the gospel shared with them. Not one is ever told of a place of eternal conscious torment. Major oversight if such a place exists. The word “Hell” as traditionally defined appears nowhere in Scripture. The words translated as “Hell” Hades and Sheol merely refer to the grave, while Gehenna is only mentioned to Jews in or around Jerusalem as it was an actual place where trash and carcasses were in a state of perpetual burning. The closest to the traditional view is “Tartarus,” only used twice and never when referring to the fate of the lost. Scripture is clear that God alone has immortality, and that it is a gift for those in Christ, not something we already possess. John 3:16 clearly states the options: everlasting life in Christ, or death in sin, perishing, not everlasting life in either Heaven or Hell. Jesus paid the price for sin by dying, and in rising again, defeating death, the first fruits of the promised inheritance. The wage of sin is and has always been death. There are vessels prepared for glory, and vessels prepared for destruction. The Greek word for destruction used means “To bring to an absolute and complete end; to destroy completely; to bring to a permanent end.” May the Spirit lead us into all understanding, according to His will. Amen
@@TheBenevolentDictatorship Can everyone be saved if they decide to do God’s will?
@@warriorofthelord4142
The natural person without the Spirit cannot even comprehend the things of God let alone accept them, according to Scripture. Without God’s initiating work of regeneration, no one can come to Christ.
“This is why I told you no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them first.”
-Jesus
@@TheBenevolentDictatorship What is the natural person? And what if someone right now want to follow God will Father draw him to Him and show him the right way to do it?
I spent years struggling with this topic but I believe the fundamental issue is that we don’t truly see human beings evil at the core before we are born again. If we don’t trust the Bible, and believe that we are wicked, of course it will be unjust for God to send us to hell. Rather, we should trust what God tells us about ourselves. The fact is that not one person deserves to be saved. The question isn’t why doesn’t God save everyone, it’s why would God save anyone? It is purely his gracious mercy why any are saved