@@Ezvil504 just under the vid; Thumb Up/Down Share Download *Thanks* Save Click the Thanks. in the pop up; write your message, drag the dot along the bar to set amount (from $2 - $500) clicky-clicky Buy and Send Next pop up is CC details and so forth... 🙂👍
I wish I could do it just so I could support you in other ways than hitting the like button. (I am subscribed)! But that is unfortunately all I can do right now. Maybe I can become a member soon though!
TBF, the OHP was basically a missile sponge for screening the carriers, so their purpose has been fulfilled. Can I just say... I spent most of my time on a VLS Tico, so I'm happy. The Slavas and, of course, the Kirov, were a bit terrifying to look at (think that was the point) but glad we had a good chance of prevailing if shit hit the fan.
Spent two years on the Stark soon after they got hit. Helped rebuild her in the yards in Pascagoula. Leading GMM and LPO. Based on what I saw in her cabilities during my time onboard made me never want to go into combat on that platform. Especially with the radar and without a tail. Sitting duck.
@@howardstotler616 Oh crap..... I remember when the Stark was hit. I was a senior in HS. I was baffled we didn't hit Iraq like we hit Iran after the Sammy B hit a mine. They were all "Ooops! Sorry we touched your boat ... please don't kill us"
@@rudi_ghuliani in my job, we got regular intel updates on the readiness of the soviet (and post-soviet) navy. There was a precipitous decline in readiness that just accelerated. So your assessment may have a lot of truth.
@@rudi_ghulianiThat’s.. not true to reality. I think you misunderstand how much money they sink into their Kirovs. I don’t think you wanna find out if a modernized Kirov works or not, I sure as hell wouldn’t.
So these have been enjoyable, but I think there's a flaw - You've spoken about not wanting to use the 90's update for the US boats because it makes them too powerful, which makes sense. That being said, I'd argue the same thing is happening here in favor of the Soviets. The Soviets invested heavily in missile boats specifically because they never really invested in a true carrier fleet. The US, on the other hand, HEAVILY built up their carrier fleets, and all of these US boats were designed to be part of those fleets. Effectively, you're forcing the US to fight the Soviet's fight - not what they were built for.
It's not a flaw since the point was merely to test firepower. But as a duel yeah, doesn't work. I'd like to see a proper versus, whatever that would be.
Well, the Soviet naval doctrine was defensive, while American was and is offensive. To follow that, Soviets should have their subs, coastal missile batteries and tactical bombers like tu-22 available. While the Americans should also have subs, plus carriers. In this case it would be whole another story.
@@VikingTeddy it would be kirov or slava based SAG's vs a US carrier task force, though the russians would likely be fighting on the defense and thus have land based Tu-22 support, which would be the real danger to our carriers
I completely with your points. US surface combat vessel was never intended to seek out and sink other ships. In their naval doctrine, they were primarily there to defend the aircraft carrier which is their main striking force. Hell, I even say that today modern USN don't even have the same offensive capabilities as the Soviet back then until the advent of LRASM
In the entirety of WestPac '81, we saw precisely one Krivak class Frigate. We saw it a lot and those lunatics were always up for a bit of naughty fun (yes, shots were fired), but we never saw any formations of anything. While we were out, a Kresta and two Krivaks decided to go play by the US west coast, but nothing came of it other than a bunch of freaked out newscasters. We never saw four of any Soviet ship or combination of Soviet ships. Their offensive strategy (being hideously outnumbered on the seas at all times) was for a single ship to shadow the US fleet and call in aircraft.
@trentvlak It is possible, probably they tought they were not detectable, the Ukrainian radar detected the Moskva because of a meteorological anomaly that allowed the radar to see much farther beyond the horizon and launch the Neptune missiles, a bad strategy to use EMCON in such case, the Slava was designed to intercept sea skimming subsonic missiles like the Neptune, it could easily have dealed with them, EMCON should only be used in exceptional cases, not when you have strategical superiority.
One thing you have to understand is that the SPS-67 surface search radar can detect and track surface ships AS WELL AS low flying aircraft and cruise missiles out to 56 miles, and submarine periscopes, navigation buoys and other navigational hazards out to 12 miles. So arguably, at least for the larger vessels, they are seeing these missiles coming at them practically almost immediately in this tournament. It’s just that their missiles don’t necessarily have the range to take advantage of this. Remember, the RIM-66 SM-1 and -2 missiles used by the American vessels in this tournament will have at most maybe 40 miles. The VLS equipped Ticos on the other hand, are most likely using the RIM-67 SM-2ER, which depending on the block model, have ranges between 65-200 miles. Hence the Ticos firing interceptors almost immediately in this video Edit: late model SM-2MR’s have a range of about 85 miles. Ticos didn’t carry SM-2ER
@ maybe for tactical and self-defense length VLS but the Ticonderoga’s were outfitted with strike length VLS which was specifically designed for both Tomahawk and RIM-67
@@lightspeedvictory even the strike length cells are too short for RIM-67's. Newer extended range missiles like SM-6 and SM-3 can just barely fit into strike length cells by using a much shorter and wider finless booster. Tico's *can* carry SM-2ER's but not RIM-67's, only the RIM-156A (SM-2ER Block IV) that the shorter booster was developed for, but these didn't enter the fleet until 1999 and only in very limited numbers before the program was cancelled.
Those are SM-2MR, but they're newer blocks, good out to 85nm. The latest even have active radar homing, and could actually be fired at the Slavas right off the drop. (I think the NTU mod models Block IIIa, which doesn't have any OTH capabilities.)
I definitely would be curious to see someone submit a group of ships 100% dedicated to AA defense. Just to see what happens when you take the absolute best AA ships in the entire game and see if they can hold out against everything thrown at them.
I’m not sure why it is not modeled but the harpoons normally do arrive at the same time. Each one takes a dog leg route to the target ship. The first missile has a large dog leg and subsequent dog leg is smaller so they all arrive there at the same time.
In general, I haven't been a fan of sea power on account of how slow naval battles are and then how abruptly they're over, but this tournament sounds pretty cool.
Would the cool to see a mixed fleet if possible, of both the Kirov and Iowa 8 ships total 4 kirovs and 4 Iowas vs the NTU Ticonderoga 8 ships Just as a for fun battle
@@filipearthur5379 Yeah, that might be it. Interestingly it's pretty shit at defending itself against it's own missiles if you do Slava vs Slava and give both AWACS. Eventhough their missiles are slower.
haven't seen the battle yet, (i'm betting on OHP, gotta love an underdog) but it would be cool to see the overall winner fight a combined force of each of the first-round losers, to see if they could come together in their suckiness to overcome the champ. keep up the great work, Cap.
Incorrect. The Slava that was sunk simply was operating EMCON, so that would suggest the systems worked as they should.. but if they’re deactivated, then they’re obviously useless. It wasn’t the fault of the systems itself.
@@demanischaffer I’ve spoken with two sailors previously who were onboard the Slava, and they had no warnings of the Neptunes, nor did the CIWS engage anything, which they absolutely would have for subsonic missiles, indicating everything was shut off. The AK-630’s rely on their own systems being active to engage targets, and if those were shut off.. well, you know the rest.
Ryzen 5 2600x or i5 8600k according to the steam page for the game, should run on any recent CPU Ryzen 3 and Intel i3 and above from the past 2-3 years and any Ryzen 5 and Intel i5 and above from the past 5-6 years
If memory serves i think the OHP was designed for convoy escort, a cheap single screw design that was easy to mass produce. I think they were the first ships to use gas turbines as their main propulsion.
OHP entered service 2 years after Spruance which had gas turbines. The Coast Guard actually beat the Navy to gas turbines by 10 years. The first warship to use solely gas turbines for propulsion was actually the Soviet Kashin-class destroyer in 1962
the moskva wasnt sunk by 2 harpoons. it was hit by 2 neptune missiles which are bigger than harpoons and have a higher range. also most likely a bit faster but still sub sonic. and officially the defense systems of the moskva wasnt activated or didnt work either because of bad crew training or radar failure.
Moskva ought to have bene able to defend against at least 12 neptunes within the engagement window from them cresting the radar horizon. Its defenses were almost certainly not active.
@@egoalter1276Yep, I have managed to speak with two Russian sailors who were onboard that day. From what they claim, they were ordered from higher command to go completely EMCON. They simply didn’t know until the first missile hit, and then when they tried to activate their surface and air search radars, they were too heavily damaged, at which point.. they were a sitting duck. More or less the fault of the high command staff, not the crew itself.
@@rebelliousfew Oh wow thats... But why?! Why would they tell them to do that and then go:" Just sail through this active warzone. I'm sure nothing will happen".
@@firstname8637 The equivalent of walking into a boxing match and covering your eyes thinking if I can't see them they can't see me. But also, why enter the boxing ring with that idea/plan in the first place?!
@@firstname8637 Yeah.. not sure what their command staff were drinking that day. They have the strategic and firepower advantage.. yet decided to go completely EMCON. Pure stupidity on their part. I pity the sailors who had to suffer through such horrible decision making.
The new competition sounds great! However, one suggestion. Keep the fleets to be NATO or Warsaw Pact themed, not a complete mix-and-match. What's really interesting is seeing how NATO ships could have been built into particular task forces, same for the Warsaw Pact. What could the navies have done with the "chess pieces" they had at the time to make the most effective groups? NATO and WP fleets had unique philosophies, would be cool to see creative ways of making them work. Also, it's more cool seeing different philosophies of ship design fight each other. It's like in WH40K, you want to see the best Imperial Guard mix for 1000 points versus the best Ork mix. It's strange watching a battle where it's a mix of Imperial Guard and Ork units together against another mix of IG and Orks.
With the points system as set up, I vote for a fleet of 3x Slava + 2x Udaloy + 1x Leahy68. Main offense comes from the Slavas. While long range defense comes from the combined 18 fcr-channel Slavas and 4 fcr-channel Leahy68, plus short range defense from the combined 16 fcr-channel Udaloys and 4 fcr-channel Slavas.
You have probably read all the comments, but may I recommend a larger grid than 10 miles. I would want anti-air pickets in my fleet farther than 10 miles... that would be my one suggestion.
The ship Moskva went down less due to the missiles and more due to the lack of defense and poor damage control, I mean, who in the right and gave the orders to turn of defenses in an active war, not that the defenses could have done better, but still could have a chance, and the damage control parties lacked training and performed atrociously. It was a shameful display, and that's the truth.
Precisely. Had the air and surface search radars been on, they would’ve absolutely destroyed the Neptune missiles. Absolutely shameful that the only reason it was sunk was because they thought they should go EMCON. Pure stupidity when you have the strategic advantage of having a navy and your enemy does not.
She was due for scrapping the same year. The radars were corroded and none of the equipment worked. She hadn’t been maintained since the Soviet Union fell. They didn’t do damage control because she wasn’t worth it in short. Slava was sunk the moment they decided to sail her as some bluff/ decoy. Target. Notice how they didn’t do the aggressive Patrol with the admiral or Gorschov. They’re brand new boats. The Patrol could also have been done by a Submarine.
@@jugganaut33 That is.. factually incorrect. I spoke with two sailors on board the Moskva that day.. and everything worked as intended, the only problem though is that they were completely EMCON, so they had no prior warning to the missiles. To say she was never serviced or maintained since the fall of the USSR is a pure lie. On December 3rd, 2009, she was put in dry dock PD-30 for scheduled interim overhaul and maintenance, and in June of 2019, left port to perform testing of her combat systems and main propulsion. On July 3rd of 2020 had then completed two and a half months of repairs and maintenance intended to allow her to remain in active service until 2040.. so no they were no where close to scrapping her. She even fired the newer P-1000 Vulkan missiles in April 2021. Pays to do some research, huh?
idk if this final round proved much other than a cruiser will generally beat a destroyer and a frigate. But I would have enjoyed a final galleon battle here!
So one big thing that should be comsidered in the next round of these battles is that each individual class of ship was built to specialize in a certain type of warfare. For imstance, the OHPs were designed as anti-submarine warfare ships, and the Tico's as anti-aircraft warfare ships. On the Soviet side, the Slavas were meant to be anti-surcace combatants, while ships like the Udaloys were anti-submarine, and the Krestas were (i think) anti-air. So putting one type against a different makes things not fully fair. Don't really know how that could be realistically accounted for in a bracket style competition like this, but it is definitely something to consider.
Now we just need the same series, but with much more realistic scenarios that comply with the naval doctrines of both the USSR and US. That would truly test their skills and abilities.
1) the Kirov is stronger than the Slava, you just didn't put them against each other, the iowa beating Kirov and not Slava is just a random mess 2) the modded ships are probably over modeled, it is not just the VLS change, the soviet ships have VLS too, it is the radars and missiles 3) the range was too short for the missiles of the Slava, the missiles flying high on the early part of their journey is to conserve fuel, they would obviously launch them low for such a short range engagement 4) the Sovremenny would probably be a better option than the Kirov/Slava when fighting the modded Tico at such a short range because of 3)
Yep, those were my initial thoughts. I knew the Slavas would lose simply because the P-500’s fly high initially. Had they sea-skimmed, the Slavas would’ve had a much more fair and equal chance.
Disagree with the mod being overmodeled, it's not just VLS like you said but Aegis is still, to this day, the single most powerful and capable radar system ever installed on a ship. The Mk26 crippled the capabilities of Aegis. Just on the unclassified side of things, Aegis is capable of directing 32 friendly missiles to target simultaneously (as in, terminal guidance to kill, not just populating link data) and tracking up to 250 objects.
@Reniconix That is basically a fairytale comment, the aegis and every other similar system have never been tested so someone can be sceptical about the performance Every other SAM system in the base game underperforms, the modded aegis is the only exception in the game. The tico cruisers are so outdated that according to the navy generals they cannot even track the current Chinese missiles with their AESA radars, they are still in service as vls carriers for political reasons, they depend on the modern Burkes for protection. The Tico has 4 AN/SPG-62 radars, this means that in the best case scenario it can engage 4 targets. (In most directions 2 or 3), so the SM2 spam seen in the video wouldn't work. If the enemy missiles flew lower instead of the stratosphere the SM2s wouldn't even be able to engage. The SM6 entered service in 2013 and doesn't require the illuminator radar, that said there is a very limited amount of the SM6 per ship, 500 have been produced in total and shared between 3 countries.
@@Reniconix The Aegis is a very general term, we cannot know if it is the best since it has never been used in actual combat, neither has any other system of that class. The Aegis on the Tico cruisers is old, even the original non-VLS Ticos had the Aegis. Even the most modern Tico cruisers today are outdated, the navy is constantly trying to throw them away while the government keeps the operational for political reasons (total VLS count will drop very fast and the politicians see that as weakening of the navy). Navy generals talk shit about these ships because they are falling apart and their radars cannot even track the current Chinese threats. If we go back to 1990, the only option for the Tico is the SM2 (SM6 entered service in 2013 and even today in very small numbers). The SM2 requires the ship to illuminate the target with an AN/SPG-62, the Burke has 3 of these while the Tico has 4. This means that in the best case scenario the Tico can engage 4 different targets with SM2 missiles. This also means that if the enemy missiles fly low (under the horizon) the ship cannot engage with SM2, even if they know where the missiles are via AWACS. This is basically how semi-active homing missiles work, most of the Russian missiles work the same way, S300 and S400. This is also the reason why the "smart" soviet anti-ship missiles worked in a pact with one observer missile popping up over the horizon to see the ship and transfer the data to the rest. They could in theory rotate the role and pop in and out of the radar rendering any launched SM2s wasted (unless the new observer missile is close to the previous one so the SM2 can re-engage). Actual modern air defense systems have active radar homing interceptors, for example, the Aegis has the SM6 (only 500 produced and shared between 3 countries) and the ESSM block2 (block1 was semi-active), the Russians have the the S350 (shorter range but has active radar homing missiles) on their modern ships and in Europe there is the Aster family which is active radar homing. So if I had to choose between an Aegis ship with old ESSMs and SM2s or a ship full of Aster 30 then I would of course pick the European ship. The S400 also has the 9M96, 9M96E, 9M96E2 and 9M100E which are all active radar homing, they are not used on naval platforms but I mention them because in this channel they were never shown in any of the S400 theoretical scenarios and the S400 was basically shown as a semi-active only system with the excuse that these missiles are in very low numbers. Well, the same could be said for the Aegis which still depends on the SM2 while the SM6 is a special weapon which costs a lot and is in tiny amounts.
@@grimreapers Maybe it should just be more of a series of experiments rather than a competition.. After all, the very aim of warfare is to give get an advantage.. F22 vs soviet jets is a great example.. Is it fair? No, but its warfare..
Just figured I would mention that. They certainly have offensive Capabilities, but literally no Air-Defense from their Navy as if they never seen a missile/Drone coming...
LOL. My poor OHP's. A true David vs. Goliath scenario. IRL, we'd have gotten the hell out of there and back to the battle group we were intended to operate with.
That was fun! But now we kinda need to know how many core-game Slava's it would take to defeat a single VLS Ticonderoga, don't we? And can a single VLS Tico take on an entire Soviet carrier group? And vice versa of course, since that is essentially what the Slava's were designed to do. Take out US carrier groups.
I hope you have a fight between a US carrier strike group and Soviet Kiev Carrier strike group. If they start off at 500nm range it will be a very interesting fight because if the Soviets close the distance they have the advantage. It’s like Tyson VS Lennox Lewis.
The reason slava sank is because she’d never seen a days maintenance since 1990. 32 years by the time of her sinking. She was due for scrapping the same year. Nothing on the ship worked. Even to hit Bayraktar drones she was having to fire 3 X S300 missiles. Because they haven’t been maintained either and the radar was corroded. At the time she put to sea with freshly oiled, greased and sealed equipment she would have been lethal.
Slava only has 3 channel for target engagement, each channel can support 2 missile at the same target. Ticos on the other hand can keep many SM2 in flight since it uses midcourse updates from the SPY-1. the 4 SPG-62 is only needed for the last few secs of intercept.
If you choose an American carrier, should you not automatically get the use of an E-2? They are a part of the air wing, and the air wing is the offensive of a carrier.
One thing i dont like is the fact is that there were not a huge amount of TASMS made IRL. A tico would not be carrying 20 of them and as soon as the cold war ended they were retired
I don't know if this is something you can do or not. My old man was aboard the USNS Santa Barbra (AE-28) during the 1991 gulf war. He always said that the biggest concern for the navy at the time was if Iraq were to have launched the Scud ballistic missiles with chemical or biological warheads against the ships. Now being an ammunition ship his was lightly defended but would have been part of the fleet but also not very close to other ships because if it went up it would have been a very big boom. So, can you simulate a land-based attack against a US navy fleet of the time with a lightly defended ship a few miles away from the fleet and see if anything would get through?
If that's the case and it's OK with you will send on PayPal . That way i know you are getting it and not just a % of it the rest swallowed without trace by some middle man money broker . Think i still have your PayPal add .
I was under the impression those SM-2s were SARH? Can a Tico guide infinity SM-2s at once? If so that is very impressive but it seems like bad modeling from the mod
I understand that you like to do fair fights.. But you ask any military member if they want a fair fight or not.. Most will say If you are in a fair fight you lost..
I don’t at all approve of adding the modernised American assets without other modernised red assets. But what would be interesting in seeing this re done with human tactics. Can the GR team change the game with human controlled fleets? I also might suggest, the Slavs in 20222 may not have been a perfectly commanded and crewed ship, and Ukraine may have been using targeting data that was not their own, and therefore couldn’t be shot down. In seapower we compare the equipment, not the crew.
I was just wondering as when i went to buy a super thanks this comes up . Price £83.33 VAT £16.67 Total today £100.00 So i was wondering just how much you get in the end ?
Sea Power simulates a fictional Redfor fighting a fictional Bluefor; any similarities to historical assets or events, past or present are unintentional and should not be read into for historical interpretation. The devs are trying to deliver a fun and exciting gameplay experience, rather than any statement relating to reality. No one gets very upset when the bad guys win a fictional space battle - this is much the same. From that perspective, thank you for demonstrating the in-game behavior of SP's more impressive units when pitted against each other.
Thanks, Cap! I enjoyed this.
Thanks
Wait there’s a way to pay on UA-cam
@@Ezvil504 just under the vid; Thumb Up/Down Share Download *Thanks* Save
Click the Thanks. in the pop up; write your message, drag the dot along the bar to set amount (from $2 - $500) clicky-clicky Buy and Send
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Thanks Cap, love your videos!
Go the reapers, thanks Cap, cheers Mate
I can’t wait to see the upcoming competition!
I dare you to enter it.
I wish I could do it just so I could support you in other ways than hitting the like button. (I am subscribed)! But that is unfortunately all I can do right now. Maybe I can become a member soon though!
TBF, the OHP was basically a missile sponge for screening the carriers, so their purpose has been fulfilled. Can I just say... I spent most of my time on a VLS Tico, so I'm happy. The Slavas and, of course, the Kirov, were a bit terrifying to look at (think that was the point) but glad we had a good chance of prevailing if shit hit the fan.
Spent two years on the Stark soon after they got hit. Helped rebuild her in the yards in Pascagoula. Leading GMM and LPO. Based on what I saw in her cabilities during my time onboard made me never want to go into combat on that platform. Especially with the radar and without a tail. Sitting duck.
@@howardstotler616 Oh crap..... I remember when the Stark was hit. I was a senior in HS. I was baffled we didn't hit Iraq like we hit Iran after the Sammy B hit a mine. They were all "Ooops! Sorry we touched your boat ... please don't kill us"
Soviets made some mean looking ships but I imagine irl those tube doors would be rusted shut 🤣
@@rudi_ghuliani in my job, we got regular intel updates on the readiness of the soviet (and post-soviet) navy. There was a precipitous decline in readiness that just accelerated. So your assessment may have a lot of truth.
@@rudi_ghulianiThat’s.. not true to reality. I think you misunderstand how much money they sink into their Kirovs. I don’t think you wanna find out if a modernized Kirov works or not, I sure as hell wouldn’t.
Great video and i appreciate all the fun other videos u made too. Also thanks for all the time and effort put into the content
So these have been enjoyable, but I think there's a flaw - You've spoken about not wanting to use the 90's update for the US boats because it makes them too powerful, which makes sense. That being said, I'd argue the same thing is happening here in favor of the Soviets. The Soviets invested heavily in missile boats specifically because they never really invested in a true carrier fleet. The US, on the other hand, HEAVILY built up their carrier fleets, and all of these US boats were designed to be part of those fleets. Effectively, you're forcing the US to fight the Soviet's fight - not what they were built for.
It's not a flaw since the point was merely to test firepower.
But as a duel yeah, doesn't work. I'd like to see a proper versus, whatever that would be.
Well, the Soviet naval doctrine was defensive, while American was and is offensive. To follow that, Soviets should have their subs, coastal missile batteries and tactical bombers like tu-22 available. While the Americans should also have subs, plus carriers. In this case it would be whole another story.
@@VikingTeddy it would be kirov or slava based SAG's vs a US carrier task force, though the russians would likely be fighting on the defense and thus have land based Tu-22 support, which would be the real danger to our carriers
I completely with your points.
US surface combat vessel was never intended to seek out and sink other ships. In their naval doctrine, they were primarily there to defend the aircraft carrier which is their main striking force. Hell, I even say that today modern USN don't even have the same offensive capabilities as the Soviet back then until the advent of LRASM
Yup fair point, that's why in my next series there will be large mixed fleets which will address the problem.
Thanks!
Thanks
I like how you can see every individual missile silo on the Slava's VLS open up to fire, I never noticed that.
The beauty of AEGIS and VLS.
Happy Belated Birthday Cap!
thx
Great series CAP!!!
Was fun BUT next will will be 1000 times better.
In the entirety of WestPac '81, we saw precisely one Krivak class Frigate. We saw it a lot and those lunatics were always up for a bit of naughty fun (yes, shots were fired), but we never saw any formations of anything. While we were out, a Kresta and two Krivaks decided to go play by the US west coast, but nothing came of it other than a bunch of freaked out newscasters. We never saw four of any Soviet ship or combination of Soviet ships. Their offensive strategy (being hideously outnumbered on the seas at all times) was for a single ship to shadow the US fleet and call in aircraft.
In real life Slava class "Moskva" anti-air defenses were off for some reason, so you can't judge the Slava class for that event
they were using the emcon tactic 😆
@trentvlak It is possible, probably they tought they were not detectable, the Ukrainian radar detected the Moskva because of a meteorological anomaly that allowed the radar to see much farther beyond the horizon and launch the Neptune missiles, a bad strategy to use EMCON in such case, the Slava was designed to intercept sea skimming subsonic missiles like the Neptune, it could easily have dealed with them, EMCON should only be used in exceptional cases, not when you have strategical superiority.
@@Maverick966sorry, but Moskva went down because of inner malfunction causing fire, he was never hit.
“No, it wasn’t sunk by enemy missiles, it was sunk by itself setting itself on fire!”
OK, but that’s worse. You understand how that’s worse, right?
@@jimmymcgoochie5363 pretty much. Why?
One thing you have to understand is that the SPS-67 surface search radar can detect and track surface ships AS WELL AS low flying aircraft and cruise missiles out to 56 miles, and submarine periscopes, navigation buoys and other navigational hazards out to 12 miles. So arguably, at least for the larger vessels, they are seeing these missiles coming at them practically almost immediately in this tournament. It’s just that their missiles don’t necessarily have the range to take advantage of this. Remember, the RIM-66 SM-1 and -2 missiles used by the American vessels in this tournament will have at most maybe 40 miles. The VLS equipped Ticos on the other hand, are most likely using the RIM-67 SM-2ER, which depending on the block model, have ranges between 65-200 miles. Hence the Ticos firing interceptors almost immediately in this video
Edit: late model SM-2MR’s have a range of about 85 miles. Ticos didn’t carry SM-2ER
Tico's never carried RIM-67's, they're too long to fit in a VLS cell.
@ maybe for tactical and self-defense length VLS but the Ticonderoga’s were outfitted with strike length VLS which was specifically designed for both Tomahawk and RIM-67
@@lightspeedvictory even the strike length cells are too short for RIM-67's. Newer extended range missiles like SM-6 and SM-3 can just barely fit into strike length cells by using a much shorter and wider finless booster. Tico's *can* carry SM-2ER's but not RIM-67's, only the RIM-156A (SM-2ER Block IV) that the shorter booster was developed for, but these didn't enter the fleet until 1999 and only in very limited numbers before the program was cancelled.
Those are SM-2MR, but they're newer blocks, good out to 85nm. The latest even have active radar homing, and could actually be fired at the Slavas right off the drop. (I think the NTU mod models Block IIIa, which doesn't have any OTH capabilities.)
@@logansorenssen now it makes sense…
You're right cap. Without the chance of loosing, victory means nothing!
It wasn't blind luck, the P-500s are "smart" they can coordinate and change targets to make sure every ship is hit
I thought it was the P-700 that introduced the datalink guidance?
@@grimreapers It was on the P-500s first in a sort of "trial-run", though the datalink wasn't as advanced as the P-700s.
New Tico vs missle boat swarm!?
OK
I was thinking similar. This battle was 1:1, how about 1 Tico vs. 4 Slavas?
Another w video.
That was fun and interesting, Cap. Next competition should be really fun!
Though it is several days late, I would like to say "Happy Birthday to you! Cap." I adore your videos very much.
I definitely would be curious to see someone submit a group of ships 100% dedicated to AA defense. Just to see what happens when you take the absolute best AA ships in the entire game and see if they can hold out against everything thrown at them.
You just did they lost
Agreed, that would be interesting
New competition rules look fun
I’m not sure why it is not modeled but the harpoons normally do arrive at the same time. Each one takes a dog leg route to the target ship. The first missile has a large dog leg and subsequent dog leg is smaller so they all arrive there at the same time.
Great fun Cap, cheers.
Loving this Capt!
You should see how many Armed Business Jets it takes to beat the various classes
"Lots of poo in the channel."
What's that about?
In general, I haven't been a fan of sea power on account of how slow naval battles are and then how abruptly they're over, but this tournament sounds pretty cool.
Would the cool to see a mixed fleet if possible, of both the Kirov and Iowa 8 ships total 4 kirovs and 4 Iowas vs the NTU Ticonderoga 8 ships
Just as a for fun battle
I think I know who would win but it would be an interesting fight :)
Interesting! A few days ago I also ran a Slava vs. Sovremenny 1v1. And the Slava was able to intercept all 8 missiles shot at her.
If both have AWACS Slava would problably do that, since the SA-6 have a grater range. But the ship Radar cant see the low flying missile alone.
@@filipearthur5379 Yeah, that might be it. Interestingly it's pretty shit at defending itself against it's own missiles if you do Slava vs Slava and give both AWACS. Eventhough their missiles are slower.
Belated happy birthday Cap :)
Thanks!
haven't seen the battle yet, (i'm betting on OHP, gotta love an underdog) but it would be cool to see the overall winner fight a combined force of each of the first-round losers, to see if they could come together in their suckiness to overcome the champ.
keep up the great work, Cap.
If the slava was modeled properly, all the weapons would fail to work, and the ship would blow up for no reason.
Sea Power doesn't simulate smoking accidents
lol yes probably.
Incorrect. The Slava that was sunk simply was operating EMCON, so that would suggest the systems worked as they should.. but if they’re deactivated, then they’re obviously useless. It wasn’t the fault of the systems itself.
@@rebelliousfew even in total EMCON, the CIWS failed to intercept two subsonic missiles?
@@demanischaffer I’ve spoken with two sailors previously who were onboard the Slava, and they had no warnings of the Neptunes, nor did the CIWS engage anything, which they absolutely would have for subsonic missiles, indicating everything was shut off. The AK-630’s rely on their own systems being active to engage targets, and if those were shut off.. well, you know the rest.
Quite a difference 2-3 years of technology development makes.
Great game, Hat do I need for a CPU?
Ryzen 5 2600x or i5 8600k according to the steam page for the game, should run on any recent CPU Ryzen 3 and Intel i3 and above from the past 2-3 years and any Ryzen 5 and Intel i5 and above from the past 5-6 years
Did not expect the VLS Ticonderoga to literally just unleash a tsunami of missiles
If memory serves i think the OHP was designed for convoy escort, a cheap single screw design that was easy to mass produce. I think they were the first ships to use gas turbines as their main propulsion.
OHP entered service 2 years after Spruance which had gas turbines. The Coast Guard actually beat the Navy to gas turbines by 10 years. The first warship to use solely gas turbines for propulsion was actually the Soviet Kashin-class destroyer in 1962
It would be fun to see a matched tonnage fight between OHP and soviets
the moskva wasnt sunk by 2 harpoons. it was hit by 2 neptune missiles which are bigger than harpoons and have a higher range. also most likely a bit faster but still sub sonic. and officially the defense systems of the moskva wasnt activated or didnt work either because of bad crew training or radar failure.
Moskva ought to have bene able to defend against at least 12 neptunes within the engagement window from them cresting the radar horizon. Its defenses were almost certainly not active.
@@egoalter1276Yep, I have managed to speak with two Russian sailors who were onboard that day. From what they claim, they were ordered from higher command to go completely EMCON. They simply didn’t know until the first missile hit, and then when they tried to activate their surface and air search radars, they were too heavily damaged, at which point.. they were a sitting duck. More or less the fault of the high command staff, not the crew itself.
@@rebelliousfew Oh wow thats... But why?! Why would they tell them to do that and then go:" Just sail through this active warzone. I'm sure nothing will happen".
@@firstname8637 The equivalent of walking into a boxing match and covering your eyes thinking if I can't see them they can't see me. But also, why enter the boxing ring with that idea/plan in the first place?!
@@firstname8637 Yeah.. not sure what their command staff were drinking that day. They have the strategic and firepower advantage.. yet decided to go completely EMCON. Pure stupidity on their part. I pity the sailors who had to suffer through such horrible decision making.
well done
I like the idea for creating fleets, hopefully the GR team will bring some fleets of their own along with some trash talk.
Fantasy football, or whatever, with ships.
Roger, I'll make a fleet and enter it.
The new competition sounds great! However, one suggestion. Keep the fleets to be NATO or Warsaw Pact themed, not a complete mix-and-match. What's really interesting is seeing how NATO ships could have been built into particular task forces, same for the Warsaw Pact. What could the navies have done with the "chess pieces" they had at the time to make the most effective groups? NATO and WP fleets had unique philosophies, would be cool to see creative ways of making them work.
Also, it's more cool seeing different philosophies of ship design fight each other. It's like in WH40K, you want to see the best Imperial Guard mix for 1000 points versus the best Ork mix. It's strange watching a battle where it's a mix of Imperial Guard and Ork units together against another mix of IG and Orks.
With the points system as set up, I vote for a fleet of 3x Slava + 2x Udaloy + 1x Leahy68. Main offense comes from the Slavas. While long range defense comes from the combined 18 fcr-channel Slavas and 4 fcr-channel Leahy68, plus short range defense from the combined 16 fcr-channel Udaloys and 4 fcr-channel Slavas.
You have probably read all the comments, but may I recommend a larger grid than 10 miles. I would want anti-air pickets in my fleet farther than 10 miles... that would be my one suggestion.
The ship Moskva went down less due to the missiles and more due to the lack of defense and poor damage control, I mean, who in the right and gave the orders to turn of defenses in an active war, not that the defenses could have done better, but still could have a chance, and the damage control parties lacked training and performed atrociously. It was a shameful display, and that's the truth.
It mostly went down because of fire out of malfunction.
Precisely. Had the air and surface search radars been on, they would’ve absolutely destroyed the Neptune missiles. Absolutely shameful that the only reason it was sunk was because they thought they should go EMCON. Pure stupidity when you have the strategic advantage of having a navy and your enemy does not.
She was due for scrapping the same year. The radars were corroded and none of the equipment worked. She hadn’t been maintained since the Soviet Union fell.
They didn’t do damage control because she wasn’t worth it in short.
Slava was sunk the moment they decided to sail her as some bluff/ decoy. Target.
Notice how they didn’t do the aggressive Patrol with the admiral or Gorschov. They’re brand new boats.
The Patrol could also have been done by a Submarine.
@@jugganaut33 That is.. factually incorrect. I spoke with two sailors on board the Moskva that day.. and everything worked as intended, the only problem though is that they were completely EMCON, so they had no prior warning to the missiles. To say she was never serviced or maintained since the fall of the USSR is a pure lie. On December 3rd, 2009, she was put in dry dock PD-30 for scheduled interim overhaul and maintenance, and in June of 2019, left port to perform testing of her combat systems and main propulsion. On July 3rd of 2020 had then completed two and a half months of repairs and maintenance intended to allow her to remain in active service until 2040.. so no they were no where close to scrapping her. She even fired the newer P-1000 Vulkan missiles in April 2021. Pays to do some research, huh?
Hmm, I thought it was because of bad weather, the radars didn't detect an incoming Neptune?
hang on, why th egentlemens agreement to let the slower missile fire first? speed of the missile is part of a ships capabilities
It's to help me film both sets of launches. It's only a few seconds it will make almost no difference.
@@grimreapers Ah, makes sense. thanks
The poor OHP's with the one arm bandits never stood a chance lmao
Would be neat to have a fleet on fleet action with the best of the best from both sides.
idk if this final round proved much other than a cruiser will generally beat a destroyer and a frigate.
But I would have enjoyed a final galleon battle here!
So one big thing that should be comsidered in the next round of these battles is that each individual class of ship was built to specialize in a certain type of warfare. For imstance, the OHPs were designed as anti-submarine warfare ships, and the Tico's as anti-aircraft warfare ships. On the Soviet side, the Slavas were meant to be anti-surcace combatants, while ships like the Udaloys were anti-submarine, and the Krestas were (i think) anti-air. So putting one type against a different makes things not fully fair. Don't really know how that could be realistically accounted for in a bracket style competition like this, but it is definitely something to consider.
The point system makes it so the ships with the big anti-surface loadout cost the most.
Now we just need the same series, but with much more realistic scenarios that comply with the naval doctrines of both the USSR and US. That would truly test their skills and abilities.
Fair is better. How will we know how to improve? Right?
I like these
Yeah, this if fun, doesn’t matter the realism. This is a test of firepower. Tactics are another thing which another scenario.
1) the Kirov is stronger than the Slava, you just didn't put them against each other, the iowa beating Kirov and not Slava is just a random mess
2) the modded ships are probably over modeled, it is not just the VLS change, the soviet ships have VLS too, it is the radars and missiles
3) the range was too short for the missiles of the Slava, the missiles flying high on the early part of their journey is to conserve fuel, they would obviously launch them low for such a short range engagement
4) the Sovremenny would probably be a better option than the Kirov/Slava when fighting the modded Tico at such a short range because of 3)
Yep, those were my initial thoughts. I knew the Slavas would lose simply because the P-500’s fly high initially. Had they sea-skimmed, the Slavas would’ve had a much more fair and equal chance.
Disagree with the mod being overmodeled, it's not just VLS like you said but Aegis is still, to this day, the single most powerful and capable radar system ever installed on a ship. The Mk26 crippled the capabilities of Aegis. Just on the unclassified side of things, Aegis is capable of directing 32 friendly missiles to target simultaneously (as in, terminal guidance to kill, not just populating link data) and tracking up to 250 objects.
@Reniconix That is basically a fairytale comment, the aegis and every other similar system have never been tested so someone can be sceptical about the performance
Every other SAM system in the base game underperforms, the modded aegis is the only exception in the game.
The tico cruisers are so outdated that according to the navy generals they cannot even track the current Chinese missiles with their AESA radars, they are still in service as vls carriers for political reasons, they depend on the modern Burkes for protection.
The Tico has 4 AN/SPG-62 radars, this means that in the best case scenario it can engage 4 targets. (In most directions 2 or 3), so the SM2 spam seen in the video wouldn't work. If the enemy missiles flew lower instead of the stratosphere the SM2s wouldn't even be able to engage.
The SM6 entered service in 2013 and doesn't require the illuminator radar, that said there is a very limited amount of the SM6 per ship, 500 have been produced in total and shared between 3 countries.
@@Reniconix
The Aegis is a very general term, we cannot know if it is the best since it has never been used in actual combat, neither has any other system of that class. The Aegis on the Tico cruisers is old, even the original non-VLS Ticos had the Aegis.
Even the most modern Tico cruisers today are outdated, the navy is constantly trying to throw them away while the government keeps the operational for political reasons (total VLS count will drop very fast and the politicians see that as weakening of the navy). Navy generals talk shit about these ships because they are falling apart and their radars cannot even track the current Chinese threats.
If we go back to 1990, the only option for the Tico is the SM2 (SM6 entered service in 2013 and even today in very small numbers). The SM2 requires the ship to illuminate the target with an AN/SPG-62, the Burke has 3 of these while the Tico has 4. This means that in the best case scenario the Tico can engage 4 different targets with SM2 missiles. This also means that if the enemy missiles fly low (under the horizon) the ship cannot engage with SM2, even if they know where the missiles are via AWACS. This is basically how semi-active homing missiles work, most of the Russian missiles work the same way, S300 and S400.
This is also the reason why the "smart" soviet anti-ship missiles worked in a pact with one observer missile popping up over the horizon to see the ship and transfer the data to the rest. They could in theory rotate the role and pop in and out of the radar rendering any launched SM2s wasted (unless the new observer missile is close to the previous one so the SM2 can re-engage).
Actual modern air defense systems have active radar homing interceptors, for example, the Aegis has the SM6 (only 500 produced and shared between 3 countries) and the ESSM block2 (block1 was semi-active), the Russians have the the S350 (shorter range but has active radar homing missiles) on their modern ships and in Europe there is the Aster family which is active radar homing. So if I had to choose between an Aegis ship with old ESSMs and SM2s or a ship full of Aster 30 then I would of course pick the European ship.
The S400 also has the 9M96, 9M96E, 9M96E2 and 9M100E which are all active radar homing, they are not used on naval platforms but I mention them because in this channel they were never shown in any of the S400 theoretical scenarios and the S400 was basically shown as a semi-active only system with the excuse that these missiles are in very low numbers. Well, the same could be said for the Aegis which still depends on the SM2 while the SM6 is a special weapon which costs a lot and is in tiny amounts.
Heres a lil idea for another "mini sea battle" .. Subs vs anti sub ships!
Working on it. Difficult to make the sub battles "fair", if that makes sense?
@@grimreapers Oh it does, maybe it'll be more of a "Which (if any) anti sub ships actually works"-competition
@@grimreapers Maybe it should just be more of a series of experiments rather than a competition.. After all, the very aim of warfare is to give get an advantage.. F22 vs soviet jets is a great example.. Is it fair? No, but its warfare..
I'd love a losers bracket and then match the winner of that(Kirov) can take on the winner of the winners bracket.
Roger, just recorded a Kirov battle.
Just figured I would mention that. They certainly have offensive Capabilities, but literally no Air-Defense from their Navy as if they never seen a missile/Drone coming...
LOL. My poor OHP's. A true David vs. Goliath scenario.
IRL, we'd have gotten the hell out of there and back to the battle group we were intended to operate with.
That was fun! But now we kinda need to know how many core-game Slava's it would take to defeat a single VLS Ticonderoga, don't we? And can a single VLS Tico take on an entire Soviet carrier group? And vice versa of course, since that is essentially what the Slava's were designed to do. Take out US carrier groups.
Udaloys are a bargain for air defense. I'd run at least 3-4 in any formation. They're also great as missile sponges oriented towards the threat axis.
The points system sounds like setting up a W40K game :)
You can get so many ships with VLS you should try them out
Same problem I found, makes game too easy for US fleet.
@ they have a mod to balance the Soviet fleet out as well, making it on par with the modern American fleet
@@bradyboy7092 Whats it called? Might want to install it myself.
@@firstname8637 give me a bit. I’ll find it for you.
@@firstname8637 the one for the Soviets is the MRU mod
I hope you have a fight between a US carrier strike group and Soviet Kiev Carrier strike group. If they start off at 500nm range it will be a very interesting fight because if the Soviets close the distance they have the advantage. It’s like Tyson VS Lennox Lewis.
are the carriers planes solely representaed in the class column? and the BBs guns?
The reason slava sank is because she’d never seen a days maintenance since 1990.
32 years by the time of her sinking. She was due for scrapping the same year. Nothing on the ship worked. Even to hit Bayraktar drones she was having to fire 3 X S300 missiles. Because they haven’t been maintained either and the radar was corroded.
At the time she put to sea with freshly oiled, greased and sealed equipment she would have been lethal.
Also should mención some of the Slava cruisers have been maintained and are still deadly
is the 1960s Oklahoma City CLG on the list?? Can it use the anti radar version of Talos? If it can I would like to see it vs a Slava.....
I'd be curious to see the original core game Russian SSKs (Submarine diesel) and SSNs (Submarine nuclear) versus the updated US forces CBG.
Pretty sure that the NTU VLS is overmodeled like hell. There's no way it's able to launch sm-2s that quickly
*sad vatnik noises*
Mk41 can fire 1 missile per second normally but fire rates can always be increased if you ignore safeguards to prevent chainfire or magazine fires
Just for my culture, why is the slava's S-300 not firing at the same rate as a VLS tico?
No idea, I don't have control of it.
Very good question. They have a fairly rapid sustained rate of fire.
It doesn't have as many missile tracking channels as a Tico. A fast RoF doesn't do you much good if you can't guide your missiles in.
Slava only has 3 channel for target engagement, each channel can support 2 missile at the same target. Ticos on the other hand can keep many SM2 in flight since it uses midcourse updates from the SPY-1. the 4 SPG-62 is only needed for the last few secs of intercept.
@@xpk0228a very clear answer, thank you
Ive read alot of comments about the different naval doctrines during th cold war. Maybe you should do a US carrier fleet vs a Soviet missile fleet?
No broadside battle? 😢😢😢😢
If you choose an American carrier, should you not automatically get the use of an E-2? They are a part of the air wing, and the air wing is the offensive of a carrier.
That's a good point, I'll speak the boys.
Sorry. That should have been offensive arm of a carrier.
Doesnt the nimitz carrier start with 3 e2s on board that the player can launch
@namsangi1231 Yes it does, and if you're going to spend 33 points to get it, I think it is only fair you get the full use of it.
@@wulfwalker2514 yeah you can use it, just freaking launch the e2
One thing i dont like is the fact is that there were not a huge amount of TASMS made IRL. A tico would not be carrying 20 of them and as soon as the cold war ended they were retired
I miss hearing "I'm gonna pop!!!" what happened to him?
I don't know if this is something you can do or not. My old man was aboard the USNS Santa Barbra (AE-28) during the 1991 gulf war. He always said that the biggest concern for the navy at the time was if Iraq were to have launched the Scud ballistic missiles with chemical or biological warheads against the ships. Now being an ammunition ship his was lightly defended but would have been part of the fleet but also not very close to other ships because if it went up it would have been a very big boom. So, can you simulate a land-based attack against a US navy fleet of the time with a lightly defended ship a few miles away from the fleet and see if anything would get through?
Is there somewhere we can download the list Cap? :) This could be great for players to play their own battles with friends using your system :)
on the VLS Tico the 8 rgm84s are still fired from the 8 cannisters on the stern EDIT I think the early Tico is a bit nerfed IMO
Does it matter that the Sovremenny were set to EMCON in the first battle?
New Russian Modernization mod exists now!
If sending money by super thanks . How much of it do you get ?
Honestly I have no idea and no obvious way of finding out, sorry.
If that's the case and it's OK with you will send on PayPal . That way i know you are getting it and not just a % of it the rest swallowed without trace by some middle man money broker . Think i still have your PayPal add .
Is it just me, or were the OHPs turned such that they couldn't fire their CWIS?
I was under the impression those SM-2s were SARH? Can a Tico guide infinity SM-2s at once? If so that is very impressive but it seems like bad modeling from the mod
Why are Tikanderoga's tamahawks faster? In the previous battle, everyone was shot down, but the Uticanderogs all made it?
Light carrier and air group vs Slava swarm
Hmm 10 Kirov and 20 Slave and the rest in what ever was the 2nd most effective in this series.
I understand that you like to do fair fights.. But you ask any military member if they want a fair fight or not.. Most will say If you are in a fair fight you lost..
Cap, try the MRU mod. It mods the Soviet’s Kirov, Slava, Soverenmy, Orel and Udaloy. And put it against the NTU.
Да красиво. Жизнь показала что "Слава" утонула от двух ракет "Нептун".
I don’t at all approve of adding the modernised American assets without other modernised red assets. But what would be interesting in seeing this re done with human tactics. Can the GR team change the game with human controlled fleets? I also might suggest, the Slavs in 20222 may not have been a perfectly commanded and crewed ship, and Ukraine may have been using targeting data that was not their own, and therefore couldn’t be shot down. In seapower we compare the equipment, not the crew.
How about an USN Sub Group, take on a carrier battle fleet of USSR/Russia
The slava that was sunk was probably because of crew quality.
22:15 Do I hear BOSS MUSIC?
I would try 4v1 against NTU
I was just wondering as when i went to buy a super thanks this comes up . Price
£83.33
VAT
£16.67
Total today
£100.00
So i was wondering just how much you get in the end ?
Ive has 1 tico run 4 slavas out of missiles before getting boaten by guns
Someone needs to mod in modern Neptunes 😊
Cap, can you say outloud that I will never win the lottery?
erm, I believe there is almost no chance you will be a winner.
@@grimreapers It worked! Just like in the video!! Thank youuu
Sea Power simulates a fictional Redfor fighting a fictional Bluefor; any similarities to historical assets or events, past or present are unintentional and should not be read into for historical interpretation. The devs are trying to deliver a fun and exciting gameplay experience, rather than any statement relating to reality. No one gets very upset when the bad guys win a fictional space battle - this is much the same. From that perspective, thank you for demonstrating the in-game behavior of SP's more impressive units when pitted against each other.