When I heard the Taliban blew up those opposing religious structures, it was sorrowful because they’re destroying humanities rich heritage. Not because I actually believed that particular religion.
As an atheist, I enjoy visiting cathedrals. I tend to ignore the religious aspects of the buildings and view them instead as monuments to the people in centuries past who were able to conceive and build such beautiful edifices. It's clear that many talented craftsmen were inspired to make wonderful things for us to enjoy nearly (or more than) a millennia later. The fact they were inspired by belief in a deity is irrelevant for the most part. No god ever picked up a chisel or installed a piece of stained glass. Places like Notre Dame are less symbols of church power today than museums of a portion of our shared history and heritage, either for good or bad. If I go to the Temple of Karnac in Egypt, I don't have to believe in Ra to enjoy the architecture. I don't have to believe in Juno to appreciate the design of the Parthenon. Likewise, I don't have to believe in Jesus to mourn the loss of history in Notre Dame.
If we're all just wet bags of cells that got here by chance, how come there is even such a thing as a beauty? Shouldn't your position be "stuff happens, then other stuff happens, move on"? Why is the beauty of this collection of objects created by people who are just random expressions of the universal engine even relevant to an Atheist's life??
@@treblepet Why do you need god to think something aestheticly pleasing? Why do ypu need god to appreciate the History, the hard work and achievements of building something like Notre Dame. These are "just things" but atheists still have emotions and feelings as do all human beings. God isn't needed for that.
@@Pedantic_Brit Your feelings are but electrical impulses you can't control. It's all predestined in the fact you are but a domino falling against other dominoes. You think something is pleasing to you, but it's an illusion of electricity and proteins in a hapless chemical soup of meaninglessness. If you think you are enjoying something, or you think something is beautiful, it's simply your arrangement of brain cells triggering to impulses. It means nothing at all.
@@jackflackers8326 HAHAHA oh c'mon hahahaha it's hahahahaaaaa fucking hahahaha funny! Whaaahaa he haha he hahaha he actually DID say hahahahaaaaa something nice WHOEHAAAAHAAA!!!
French atheist here. I might be donating to rebuild the cathedral, if what has been raised so far isn't enough. I am gutted by the loss of such an irreplaceable cultural asset. I am disgusted by the morons who try to turn this into a political/religious argument. But I do find it funny how some religious people are desperate to find a miracle in all this mess, while others see some kind of message from God. Basically if the cathedral stands for 800 years, it's a sign of God's might, if it burns down, it's a sign of God's wrath, if some part is saved, it's a miracle, and so on. As you often say, it really is "heads I win, tails you lose". The "raking the attic" joke was absolutely hilarious, though. What a worldwide embarrassment Trump is. Please vote him out in 2020, I think the world's had enough winning for the rest of the 21st century
Well, the cathedral is a Catholic monument. The Catholic Church could have given money to the poor but they decided to use their wealth to build a Cathedral instead.
It's worth considering the number of jobs that will be available, the small businesses supported, and the help it will give to a major French industry (tourism).
Damien, This cathedral is a major tourist attraction in Paris. Don't know how much it'll cost to rebuild, but in sure they'll pay it. The cathedral is insured, too.
Ari MF Shapiro it will cost 100s of millions of euros and a couple of French billionaires in France have already pledged millions of euros (not the catholic church). The pope is busy sending thoughts and prayers.
I was an art history major in my first year in college. Notre Dame was one of my professor's favorite pieces of architecture and we studied it extensively. Watching it burn..was like watching the loss of an old friend. 😔
Notre Dame is far more than just a religious building; it is one of the pinnacles of human achievement in art, architecture and engineering. Many lifetimes of skilled labour have been devoted to its construction and maintenance over many centuries. There is no joy to be taken in such a tragic fire. However, as a true Brit, I am a firm believer in the value of laughter in the face of adversity. I've not heard any jokes about the fire, but if I hear a good one, I shall take joy in the joke, NOT in the damage to the cathedral. Taking a longer term view, the cathedral will be rebuilt. A new generation of craftsmen and women will have an opportunity to make their contribution to this great building, and in a few hundred years, it will be seen as just another episode in its great history. Incidentally, fire broke out in the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem within hours of the Notre Dame fire. It seems to have been doused fairly quickly and I hope no major damage has been done.
Thanks for posting this well thought-out commentary on this tragic event and explaining how humor can be a useful way for people to cope after-the-fact and not. I especially appreciate how you explored all angles involved and how much care you took in communicating your position.
@@machintelligence And for the next couple of years the hunchback will be living in his hatchback. Edit: And I know that was a dumb joke. I'm a dad. It comes with the territory.
Thanks for speaking out, Matt. Humor is a way to cope with difficult situations. By its very nature it is edgy and pushes boundaries, and it's true that we have to be careful how we wield it. I was genuinely saddened to see history burning, and was hugely relieved to hear that nobody was hurt (and, secondly, that the damage to irreplaceable artifacts was limited). I also joked about it a little with my friends. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Visit some old churches in Latin America, as I have done (ad nauseum) admire the enormous local resources, particularly the golf-leaf on statues and icons required to build these useless monoliths, then consider the neglect and poverty all around and the corruption and indifference of the Catholic church industry.
@drdavid Well the Catholics might stop being encouraged to "breed for god" just for starters. Your paradigm is a bit bleak even for a Dystopian. Cheer up mate.
Hitchens mentions his appreciation of churches in God Is Not Great. He also does the Philip Larkin poem, "Churchgoing." Read it here: www.shigeku.org/xlib/lingshidao/waiwen/larkin.htm
@@Longtack55 It's a sad truth that every significant monument was built out of suffering. It's only when most wealth and power is concentrated in a few people that you have the resources to build things like the pyramids, cathedrals, and even the Empire State Building.
I already saw an article about how a cross was left standing after the blaze and people are already proclaiming the power of Jesus and such... Just had to roll the eyes and move along.
I love old arctecture. There is something humbling to walk through an old building regardless. This is a piece of that era's culture. I'm sad about the loss of that. However I do enjoy a good joke. So I can both be sad for the loss and appreciate the irony of a church burning just before easter
I've only visited the Cologne cathedral. And documentaries I have watched, all the cathedrals are as gigantic and amazing, particularly that some still stand because of the poor building on some, and the historical destructive moments they survived. Would be as sad if the Hagia Sophia were to be ruined or any other historical building, or any ruins of historical buildings like Athens Parthenon or leaning tower of Pisa were to collapse more. These structures are reminders of humanities' past in the present for us to ponder the future. For them to be destroyed by whatever cause, leaves an emptiness and uncertainty in the present and immediate future. Like the eventually complete loss of Library of Alexandria and its associated depository, so much was lost and will never be recovered, how far did that set back human technology and morality? It just sucks. Was horrified when various radicals were toppling and blowing up ruins of Palmyra. It's tantamount to burning books. To see any of these places and things destroyed is a tragedy for humanity, a self inflicted or just by misfortune of a natural disaster, a human brainectomy.
IF YOU REALLY DONT BELIEVE IN GOD.... THEN TAKE A LIE DETECTOR TEST FOR THE WORLD TO SEE THE RESULTS.... SEE IF YOU'RE LYING OR NOT WHEN IT COMES TO BELIEVING IN GOD'S EXISTENCE... YOU KNOW THAT GOD EXIST...
Matt, I have listened to most of your videos from the atheist experience. And some other debates on other programs. And I become a huge fan of yours every time. Much respect to you!
It is a building. A piece of cultural and artistic heritage. The damage is painful, but jokes are a good way of dealing with pain, and pricking ideological bubbles that can exploit pain, if well judged. It is up to each individual to judge this well, and call out others who do not.
@@dignerds Utterly wrong. Many jokes are a moral good, bringing more happiness than they cause pain. There was a joke denigrating Nazis using a pug that was utterly hilarious, and worthy of the sort of things those going to face (and be killed by) the Nazis used to keep morale up. It got a comedian a criminal record (as a hate criminal) such that he will never get a decent job again. See Count Dankula. That is why I had the second clause, as ridiculing bad stuff is a vital correction mechanism, that identity politics tries to ban.
I'd say that the French actually might be able to use that defense. But not anybody else. There is no possible way for us, people living in different parts of the world, to comprehend the horror they must have been going through. If _they_ need to resort to comedy, sure, that's their prerogative. But for everyone else this is just laughing at someone's suffering, pure schadenfreude. For us to laugh at it, is just punching down. Gallows humor is when you're able to laugh while you're at your own execution. For everyone else, it's just laughing at someone getting killed. For the same reason, Dankula doesn't get to train a pug to do a nazi salute. A Jew might be able to get away with it. But not a guy living in a privileged position of having the luxury to be unable to comprehend the horrors of the nazi regime.
@@Arrakiz666 I am able to empathise with different people. Can an admirer of architecture, who is not French, feel the same things? Presumably not. Can a non-Buddhist be pained by the Taliban blowing up statues? Or a non-Babylonian by DAESH trashing relics? Should I never tell Trump or Clinton jokes, because I'm not American? This is why I included my clause about ideological bubbles: I am sick of being told I can't share the thoughts of my fellow humans who are irrelevantly different in some arbitrary way. From this follow demands for special treatment and separate 'representation'.
Although I'm not religious, I can appreciate the history of the building and even visited it when it was intact. The fire is nothing to joke about in my opinion.
I have a deep dislike for religious ideas, but love the shapes n forms found within their sacred buildings. Some people struggle to separate one from the other. I love Matt a little more today. 😁
As I was watching coverage about the Notre Dame fire on the national evening news yesterday, I couldn't help but think to myself similar comments such as the ones Matt referenced like "why would your god let this happen?". That same though carried over into a later news story about the killer tornados the struck the other day. I woman who survived a tornado that destroyed her house was being interviewed by a reporter while standing in the decimated remains of her home. She stated that she took shelter under the wooden stairs as her house literally exploded all around her but thanked her god for saving her life after she prayed for it to spare her. Again, I'm thinking to myself "why would your god let this happen?". She claimed that, out of this tragedy, her future is now brighter than ever before. My mouth is just hanging open in disbelief.
If something good happens, praise god, he cause it. If something bad happens, praise god, it could’ve been worse. It’s really a sad state of mental pretzeling they put themselves through. God wins no matter what happens!
Maybe she struggled with materialism, and God allowed that to happen to make her appreciate and understand, that her life is much more valuable than things. Or, maybe it was for a completely different reason, that is still for her good. We don’t know the big picture. But, God does.
They thank god instead of doctors too. Frustrating to listen to. No thanks to the carpenters who designed the staircase. No thanks to the researchers, nurses, doctors, janitors, etc. who make the medicine and the hospital possible. Idiots.
Whenever one slips into sadness or lament over this, (knowing it will be resurrected) he/she must entertain the mass murder and war carried on in the name of this institution. The artists who gave their time, talent, blood, sweat and tears to its completion either cost-free, while under coercion or out of complete necessity are those we should revere. Thank you, @Matt Dillahunty
I don't think that's useful. Those are criticisms to the institution, not to the monument. To what extent it was built by extortion (or with many of the great Wonders, downright slavery) I think is nothing to dwell on. Nobody's helped by such thoughts, and often such thoughts inspire anger and the wish for destruction. Which imo would merely double the tragedy.
@@sorsocksfake ignoring History gets us no where good and that is a fact. Anger, and the wish for destruction, I would consider that passion. Passion gains change... and the Roman Catholic church needs CHANGE.... it needs to die imho
@@sorsocksfake You can't separate the historical monument from it's history, or the history surrounding it's building. We shouldn't discard history, we need to learn from it, and learn that given the chance the Catholic Church would be a force for evil again in the world. We should never forget history, else we're doomed to repeat it. However, you can also enjoy the architecture and craftsmanship for it's own sake, but never forget that that cathedral does represent oppression, murder and death, because of the institution that it was a part of. Catholicism, as well as Christianity in general, has a lot to answer for.
My 12year old son for a project at school, painstakingly hand built an intricate small scale model of the Duomo di Milano Cathedral, only for yours truly to accidentally destroy it reversing the car into the garage where he'd left it for me to take it to the school for assessment. He is still devastated about it 14 months later. So I can only imagine how the caretakers of Notre dame must be feeling right now.🤷🏽♂️
Ad Lockhorst you have a point regarding the tourism aspect of its worth. Sure, it’s 100% worthless as far as whether or not it’s a “holy” building, but it brings France a lot of money!
I mock not because of strategy or anything like that. Mostly because of the irony. But definitely because now they understand the loss that our world felt when they burned libraries and other locations simply for not agreeing with them.
@Oners82 it's the irony that's funny, read the comment. He doesn't "revel" because the building was severly damaged, it's a tragic incident with a lot of humor surrounding it.
@Free Thought Pittsburgh - Are you really that incredibly ignorant, or are you that spectacularly biggoted? Maybe instead of just spewing your hate and ignorance, you should educate yourself with truth and knowledge. The comment that you have stated sounds just like those ignorant and vile religious zealots. Read a book instead of making idiotic assertions on the internet.
@Oners82 No, I was bringing the focus back to the Catholic Church because the responsibility was deflected. I understood exactly what you were saying, I just used a subtle twist in your point to make a statement against it. As a previous commenter pointed out, the original commenter did not revel in it as you said, he mocked it because of irony and that is not the same thing as actively destroying monuments out of bigotry and hate. The reasoning isn't even the same. The commenter was laughing at the irony. ISIS and the Catholic Church have literally destroyed monuments. The commenter has not. Also, ISIS and the Catholic Church didn't destroy monuments because they thought it was ironic lol. What, are they a bunch of hipsters or something? Also, ISIS isn't destroying monuments because the Catholic Church did it too. They are destroying other religion's monuments because they have a deep seeded belief in their ideology that compels them to destroy them in the name of their God. Same as the Catholic Church did. My guess is that you have an religious attachment to the cathedral and it hurt you when someone wasn't as sad about it as you. You recognize that the Catholic Church has done some horrible stuff but you still want to defend what you believe is sacred. So you attempted to discredit his point by trying to tie him to the horrible acts of ISIS and the Catholic Church. Unfortunately for you, I read your point and annihilated it.
@Oners82 "If you want to talk about the Catholic Church and it's crimes that's fine, but don't say that that was my point when you know very well it wasn't; that is just dishonest." I didn't say that you said it. I said I TWISTED the POINT around TO MAKE FUN of what you said. What part of this do you not understand? "What I said is that anybody who takes glee in the situation because they dislike the church is using the same REASONING as ISIS when they destroy artefacts" My rebuttal was in the paragraph that I wrote that begins with "The reasoning isn't even the same....". You said it was red herrings when I literally compared the two motivations side by side and showed that they aren't the same. This is a directly addresses your statement "because they disagree with the institution it represents is using exactly the same perverse reasoning that ISIS does". You said it was the same, I compared them and showed that they were in fact not the same. On what planet are you living on? "And did I say that mocking the situation was the same as actively destroying artefacts?" Word play, you expect us to believe that you had NO INTENTION of making an equivalency when you LITERALLY said "That is the kind of insane reasoning that ISIS uses to destroy ancient buildings and artefacts that are now lost forever." NO INTENTION? Do you really think ANYONE with a brain is going to believe that bullshit? "And I'm not defending the church in any way, I just happen to love gothic architecture and it is a tragedy when we lose it" Ok, so remove "religious attachment" and just substitute sentimental attachment and just replay my statement. Keep it coming, I'll knock this shit out the park all day
I haven't searched for, or seen any jokes about the fire. But I've seen things I concider a joke. 1) People praying for the church, during the fire 2) Conspiracies about it being an insider joke 3) That they had saved the "crown" supposedly worn by Christ when he hang on the cross 4) That is is a terrorism act done by muslims. The latter, the "terrorist act" is a joke, because it can not be a terrorist act. At the most it can be vandalism. Even if done by radical people. My feelings about the fire: It's a church, I don't care. But it's a historic building and that's sad. Btw., I have a problem with the incident being called a tragedy as this normally involves hurting people.
Surely you didn't look hard enough. I saw people joking about "race wars", though technically it would be a sectarian one. People joking about how Macron did it and will have yellow vests pay for it. And it is a tragedy... a monument to human ability, stood for 850 years... you are on point about the crown though..
Just noting that while technically true, the "terrorism" statement likewise applies to 9/11. Terrorists, technically, try to extort political concessions from threat; that's not the case in these. But in a broader definition, we tend to include destruction of monuments, major symbols of a state for ideological/political reasons, which would qualify here if it were the cause. To be clear: I don't believe that. And it is a tragedy: it is a major loss of culture and art. Whether or not you personally care for it, surely you can accept that for a great many people that's something we value. Personally I may be a bit twisted on it, but I recall with ISIS it hurt me [even] more when they destroyed thousands-years old art, than the countless people they murdered. Not sure why, but it feels like ripping out the soul from a society.
Thanks Matt for your thoughts on this magnificent building. I'm sad because of France's, indeed the world's loss. Your points about jokes are right on!
It says a lot when people will mourn the loss of a building but ignore the tragedies happening around the globe. A building can be conceptualized while human suffering is far more uncomfortable and doesn't have an obvious end. It's just easier to feel sad about a structure, than face the complexities of human inequality, war, famine, disease, and ultimately mortality. Mourning the loss of history, as if it wasn't already dust with no one left to remember... We are a strange species. We conceptualize mortality in our buildings and avoid seeing it in the eyes of those suffering.
I’m an atheist and do not care for religion whatsoever. But, the fire yesterday, I just looked at it like a museum burned down. Ben Shapiro’s tweet seems to have landed him in some hot water. While I thought it was some what funny, I know if the tables are turned on him he’d freak out and be calling for a public hanging.
Shapiro and the woman who called him out are equal parts asshole and attention whores. He did contribute to an overall environment of "our great western culture is better than yours and our religion is important" but he didn't actually attack anyone. More of an indirect lobbing of a moltatov cocktail that fizzled out, than bomb throwing. He's an idiot and a jerk, and so are the people spending more time listening to him, and commenting on his comments, than actually addressing the real issues they're complaining about.
Matt, I say that you nailed it! Everything you said in this video is spot on. I'm a huge fan of yours, and a fan of Tracie's as well. I love the show, it's both entertaining, and educational, and it's WONDERFUL. I am an Atheist, Anti-theist, and can't believe anything for which there is no evidence. THis is one of the most refreshing videos you've ever done, My respect and admiration for you and the Atheist Experience team is incredible! I thank you for everything you've done to expand the cause of Atheism, if it can be called a 'cause'!
"Send $$$, not prayers." - Your Church. Seriously though, I was lucky enough to visit Notre Dame, it is one of the most amazing cathedrals I was into, it played important part in European history (and literature). And it was magnet for tourists. I hope it gets rebuilt, but I would like it to be reborn as historical monument rather than church.
Wow, Matt - Thank you! I have just now watched your reading of the birthday letter from your parents (mostly from your mum, it seems) and it almost made me cry. It is so consoling to know, that I am not the only one to live with this sort of bull crap. At times I feel like the loneliest person in the world. My religious upbringing has been a major source of the depressions, that have been following me throughout my half life (I'm 44). Living in Denmark, there is the extra dimension to the problem, that religion is pretty rare here, and therefore it is also rare to meet people who understand. I mostly meet it in younger muslims who have turned their backs on the bull crap.
I think the jokes are fine... depending on the joke. A joke a made yesterday during class wasn’t serious and my friends understood that. We were listening to a news broadcast and one of the reporters was quoting a bystander who said that god has protected the cathedral and said, “well not good enough it seems.” It was an easy joke to make. I think that the loss of architecture and art that has been around for 800 years is shitty and it sucks. I was incredibly bummed about it when I heard. Thankfully the structure is still there so renovation is possible.
@@anphor1a , no, it's not an English paper, but it is a place that you're trying to communicate your thoughts to others. If you can't be bothered to make the tiny effort required to do so clearly, why do it at all?
My husband and I are both Atheists and have been Atheists for over 40 years. He had the opportunity to see Notre Dame in person when he was in his teens; he was upset because it is a wonderful structure and to see something that old being destroyed is hard. The building is an awe inspiring building as it has incredible cultural and architectural significance. The architectural techniques used to over come structural engineering problems shows the genius that is man and for that reason alone it is a tragedy.
Don't know that I'd go as far as "tragedy." Shit happens. It's a 850 year old building. As long as people didn't die, it's just wood and stone. What raises my eyebrow is that they've raised $800mil in less than 16hr to rebuild that cathedral....but 3500-4000 homeless people also living in Paris according to a census done in March (not including refugee camps moved away from Paris). Get some perspective...it's just an old pretty building.
@@johndavid4007 it's true tho.. it's an old building, there are other things that have more value, like people or nature... and it seems like society don't care when those get damaged.
@@J0Etj That's true. On the other hand, over $1Billion (last report I saw) donated for the building at the same time 3500 people sleep rough in the same city DOES imply that people who donated to the building at the VERY LEAST donate in much smaller measures to causes like homelessness, etc. And you and I both know there are a lot of donors to the cathedral rebuild, that have never donated to any other charitable causes in a similar amount. We can pretend that they might (because we have no proof that any individual didnt), but the numbers, news reports and a governmental plan (formed and announced in less than 2 days) tell us everything we need to know about priorities. (And don't get me wrong, I don't blame Frenchmen more than any other human...they just provide a stark example this week.)
I have family photos taken whilst we visited Notre Dame , also at Salisbury Cathedral, Winchester, York , Chichester, St Vitus in Prague, the great Pyramids and a small Church in Poland, amongst other places. They are all wonderful monuments to human endeavour, and worthy of our support.
I suspect that you may well be wrong, it could be that even more come to see the ruins, even more come to see the rebuilding, then to top up the vatican funds, yet more come to see the finished product after reconstruction. Wonder why the vatican, the richest nation on the planet (per head of population) is relying on public support to rebuild, could they not afford insurance, or was it perhaps that they erroneously thought that the guy in the sky would look after that side of the business?????
@butch oblick As I write it would appear that something like half a billion has been raised to help with the rebuilding. That is great as it is indeed a historic building (but once rebuilt, will it still be?), however it makes me wonder if people are willing to pay this towards brick and mortar, then why o why not do something for the good of humanity instead, the owner of the building has more than enough money conned out of the gullible to build thousands of places to worship the sky fairy? EDIT Ps. gawd loves OUR money.
@butch oblick We share our type of location, I also am in a developing country and I know what even a little money can do to change people's lives, a little money and a shitload of education works wonders.
@butch oblick I was quite disgusted by the difference in the amounts of money that are raised for saving lives, curing disease, helping people build and rebuild towns and getting drinking water and the money raised for a freaking building in just a few days and then the tax returns of 50 to 90% on that. I get that culture is important and worth some effort, but what the hell? Since when is it worth more than a human life? Maybe those people donated even more to other good causes, but something stops me from believing that France donated an amount just shy of one third of their GDP to saving lives.
Several abandoned churches here in the UK are converted into really cool looking apartments. As regards ND, what frustrated me was that there was so much focus on the loss of the building people were forgetting the sterling job the emergency services did in getting it out and preventing it spreading to nearby homes and businesses, and preventing the loss of a single life. My joke was about Quasimodo saying "the bells" and Sam le Pompier (the French version of Fireman Sam) replying "No, it's our sirens!"
Waiting for charlie hebdo's drawings. Now personally i don't understand why it's a tragedy. It's not someone's house/home, not an orphanage/shelter and most importantly no human lives were lost. It will be rebuilt. What is to be made of the yellow vest movement, which has been going on for the past 5 months or so, if the notre dame church is such a tragedy?
It's not a tragedy, well except for the tourism industry. As for the yellow vest movement, the tragedy is in the continual destructions and negations of individual rights that are made in new laws by the actual governement. Or in the continual impoverishment of the lower middle class and the lower class that are concerned by the original movement. As fort the Charlie Hebdo's drawings, you may be very disapointed: since the last real tragedy in that place, the content is far more tame. And it already was a few years before the now famous drawings. Among the deceased of that day, many had extremely critical views of religion in general, and yet, there was a mass in their honor in - here is the twist - Notre Dame Cathedral. I don't know if families or authorities didn't care about their personal wishes, or if the victims had changed their minds along the years, but in fine, there was this big commemoration (that I found quite hypocritical). So how will it play now ? I don't know. But the futur drawings you are anticipating could very well be anything but funny.
- it’s always a tragedy, when an 859 yr old architectural splendour is destroyed. I’m an atheist but I love history, especially medieval historical buildings. Yes many are religious but the architectural styles are amazing.
_It's not a tragedy, well except for the tourism industry._ This. And it's a good way for the president to show that he cares about people's incomes, even though tourism wouldn't decrease because of it, but who the fuck cares, it's almost time for elections. And it's a good way for larger companies to show that they care about people's incomes, even though they get somewhere between 66%-90% back of their donations from tax money. It's sad, but a tragedy would be if they spend a third of France's GDP on self promotion instead of actually improving and saving lives and yes, that is exactly what happens. Almost a billion dollars in tax money will be paid to the donators and the GDP of France is 2.9 billion.
I wept for the church of Notre Dame, because it's was a mark of human history. It wasn't built by a god, no matter what you believe. It was constructed by human minds and hands unified on a single goal, producing such a marvelous work of art, and that's what makes my atheist heart weep.
We have to cross the beams! Care bears, beam! With your powers combined, I AM Captain PLanet! Oh, I had a BBQ that day and I sacrificed a stack of lambs and asked god if he could make it a sunny day. Sorry mate. Sacrifice > prayers. You should read the bible more :p
I wept to see this magnificent human cultural achievement in flames. I am an ex Catholic atheist but this wonderful building has gone beyond religion. Notre Dame its building and contents are part of the glory of western culture. TED
I was fortunate enough to visit Norte Dame some years ago, and was astounded by the artistic beauty of the building and objects it contained. It’s a really tragedy that it burned.
@@grumpyotter Well, that's a lot better than what i first thought I read:' You have got to go and see the Notre Dame when it was stationed in Germany...' I don't have dyslexia, but it's not far off XD
Anyone else find the instant raising of $.5 billion to fix this more than a little insulting to the traditional targets of charity (you know, humans)? I mean, is Notre Dame REALLY worth more than the MILLIONS OF LIVES that could be helped by that money??
I have been there many years ago and the historical value is awesome. I am an agnostic but was very sad for what happened. In my opinion this has nothing to do with religion.
It's refreshing to see someone who isn't saying "Don't make jokes". I don't have any that come to mind, nor do I care to fashion any, but it's nice to see that you recognize humor isn't inherantly malicious
I am an atheist and have visited the Notre Dame, I was so pleased I did visit it, I will never forget the work that was involved in building it, The stairs to the place where the priest stands up there and prays, was something I will never forget, the work was literally out of this world and I do not believe that they can build it the way it was, I hope they can.
Like millions of other people, I've been to Notre Dame. I loved the stained glass windows, the structure, the artifacts. I considered in amazement the effort involved in creating this massive structure and its contents. What's more important is what time in history this was accomplished. They didn't have petroleum powered vehicles. They improvised technology. They had sheer manpower. It is remarkable for that reason alone. I felt the power of mankind that could create such a structure. But I never felt the hand of God in this effort. That didn't diminish my amazement.
All jokes aside... What a beautiful piece of historical architecture that was destroyed. The billion plus dollars raised could be used far better than to rebuild a building used for lies and deception I am glad noone was lost their life... however how many people were killed in the name of the religion worshipped within the walls of that building? And over the 800+ years on the grounds where the building sits how many in the name of god! And all the lies told within the walls. All the news feeds are saying here are that the priceless artifacts (including the crown of thorns that jesus ACTUALLY WORE) were saved. How many people have been sucked in to tithe for these outragous lies! Thank god noone died!
Completely agree. I often say leave the jokes to the professionals. That being written I was triggered when someone from msnbc announced that thankfully the crown of thorns worn by Jesus during his crucification was saved. Now in all fairness they said a symbolic crown but did go on to say that it did contain one REAL thorn from the original. Well, I lost it after hearing that. How can one not shake their head at such nonsense?
My first response was who cares because I hate the Catholic Church.. but I realized it was short sighted and it’s sad to see.but to be honest if the same thing happened to Vatican City I would genuinely be happy and I couldn’t care less what anyone thinks
In the 80s a group called Meibion Glyndwr (Sons of Glyndwr - a famous Welsh leader) started torching unoccupied holiday cottages bought by foreigners, which had the effect of inflating house prices beyond the reach of some locals. At the same time there was a Calor advert with the tagline "Come home to a real fire." This prompted the joke "Come home to a real fire... Buy a cottage in Wales!" I still find that funny. BTW... The police in France were inundated with calls about a potential suspect. Though they weren't quite certain who he is, his name does ring a bell.
Lol I always notice this too! Lol I was a Christian until I was about 38, so that number is always noticed. But I also notice 420, 69, 25, and even numbers on comments 😋
Church or not, Notre Dame is an incredible example of architecture and history. As an atheist, I appreciate how much of a monumental loss this is for civilization. Mostly just grateful no one was injured.
Historic cathedrals should be preserved, like the Buddhas of Bamyan. The average little church or mosque should eventually be bulldozed or converted to a useful purpose though.
I think this demonstrates how messed up the world is when people are far more concerned about inanimate objects than human lives (ie money donated to have it rebuilt, rather than for other tragedies where people are losing their lives). It reminds me of the Burt Lancaster movie ‘The Train’. In that film a Nazi German Colonel was trying to move stolen art out of Paris and into Germany; murdering unarmed civilians in the process.
A billion dollar building now... Ah well... science, education and health are overrated anyway. When we're dead the building will still be there! I'm so glad I'm not French. I would probably donate half my income to causes that actually matter, just out of shame.
“Laughs are exactly as honorable as tears. Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion, to the futility of thinking and striving anymore. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Palm Sunday: An Autobiographical Collage That being said: French fire investigators have found that the fire was started by sunlight being magnified through a discarded bottle which ignited sandwich and biscuit wrappers left by workers…the cause was the Lunchpack of Notre Dame …
I teared up when I heard it burned because of its place in the history of Europe, but specifically in the history of Western music. I don't know how well this has been covered because I haven't been paying much attention, but I bet that most people don't know how -- if walls could talk -- the walls of Notre Dame would tell of the very beginnings of what we have come to understand as "Western Music", where the church provided the space and the context and the educational resources for monks to codify and study the various theories of how music worked and to propose the "rules" that became the modes and diatonic scales still dominant in every popular music today, and turned with terror and awe at what it meant to have two different notes sung together at the same time.. There was magic connected to intervals and melodic bits that could turn language (and people's names) into sequences of tones in a way that would seem very natural to the aliens of Close Encounters. You could easily argue that these conversations and roots of music had been occurring for a long time and even at this particular time were happening throughout Europe in various ways. But during the beginnings of Notre Dame's importance, you'd be wrong -- or at least giving too much weight to advances in musical knowledge not headquartered in that building. I'm not sure how many buildings contain walls that might deliver this kind of first-hand testimony of the seeds of a musical language without which no Beethoven or Bach, Ives or Aguilera would produce the same pitches. It's an oversimplification, I know, but too often the modern human takes for granted how general and accessible knowledge is and it's easy to forget that before the internet, and before the printing press and before education was funded by anything but the church, there were loci of accelerated knowledge that covered in years what might otherwise have taken centuries, and these spots were few and far between and this building was one of them. Of course, this isn't to excuse the tyranny of the church or how the church held humanity back in matters of science and philosophy by a minimum of 1000 years, but that's for another thread and it's not the most notable thing about this particular building, so...
But it has everything to do with religion. While some of the things you said i agree with, there are certain things that i do not. For instance, where does the money that is assembled in the church from millions of tourists go to? You also talked about the value of the church being a historic monument. How many “monumentally historic” churches we have around the world, churches that do not pay taxes and expand assets to advance religion? Think about this. I did not make any jokes. However i stated that perhaps it shouldn’t be rebuilt.
drdavid not if you want to see the crypt and the spire. I am not sorry for not finding value in a building (no matter how old it is). There is a high poverty crisis in France.
drdavid thank you for the statistics. You are then saying that spending 300 million euros on restoring a building is more important and more pressing than other social issues? Ok. Thank you. No need to continue our discussion. Have a great life.
How many of those churches make money for their cities? Paris considers this one important to its civic life. It brings in revenue. It's initial construction cost has long since been covered. And if its church membership chooses to keep giving money to an organization that needs it, that is their business. IF France wants to tax its churches, it is again, their business. Some countries have taxes their religiuos institutions. I won't be giving them my money, but if there was an historic church like that in my town, we'd probably agree to a tax levy to repair it, for the TOURISM dollars, not to mention historicity. After all, the Alamo was a Mission, and no one bitches about maintaining that. It serves a similar purpose, lending it's architectural style and story to the city and drawing visitors.
The cathedral is a demonstration of what humanity can achieve. Notre Dame is no less an achievement than a Bach mass or a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem. The fact that it was built as a religious monument is important, but that reminds us where we've come from and how much we were able to accomplish at that stage of human development. Regarding jokes, humor that punches up is feels a lot better upon reflection than humor that punches down.
regardless of the use of notre dame it was a beautiful building and some 800 years old? it is a link to our history and regardless it's use should be saved and loved and admired... i mean fuck this thing survived ww2... most people should be sad that this thing caught fire...
There have been many fires, loss of beautiful architecture and housing. What are your priorities? My choice would be to help those most in need who are without clean water and a safe place to live.
"Donating for something, does not imply that you don't donates for other things." "Donating for something, does not imply that it's your priority and that you don't care about anything else."
Great post, Matt. I'm one of those atheists that wept. Art is my work/passion. My college art history classes were the final thing that de-converted me from religion actually. Getting a solid education about how intertwined religion/politics/art were during that period... and throughout history, prompted me to re-assess what lingering beliefs I was holding on to. But human achievement when it comes to beautiful things, places built for community gatherings, care taken in art/architecture are all valuable to me. Notre Dame matters to me as a cultural landmark. Didn't need any religious belief or attachment to be very emotional seeing the fire and damage (which thankfully was less than feared).
I'm not religious but its sad to see a historical building like this burn. What makes me more sad is how much money that has been donated already! Where were the donations when Grenfell tower burnt down, where people lost loved ones and their homes?
I did make a couple of jokes, simply because of the irony of it all. There's been numerous people burned in front of that church throughout history, beginning with Knights Templars I believe. And then there was stupid stuff like: oh good, at least the "crown of thorns" has been saved and calling this a tragedy in the media even though no human lives were lost. All in all...it's a catholic church and I can't pretend to really care. Thankfully, the Louvre is still standing.
Last time I heard, Trump suggested that they should store enough wood in the Notre Dame cathedral so that it can be rebuilt the next time there's a fire.
It wasn’t the fire that made me weep, but the people outside who formed a street choir and sang for the firefighters that got me. I’ll never forget that
The money it takes to make such a grand cathedral is about religion. The amount of waste done through religion is an issue for some. A building burns down and there was no loss of life. Is that really a tragedy? The money was already wasted. More money will be wasted. I fail to see the tragedy other than that of the religion itself.
Any building of that scope during the time it was built requires lots of money. Regardless of it’s religious roots, it was an amazing building that carries a lot of historical and cultural significance. Even if something contains religious symbolism doesn’t mean it is worthless, I mean look at the Egyptian pyramids and tombs for example. Moreover it was a culturally (and economically-it drew in lots of tourists) significant building to the French, even for those who are non-religious, and I emphasize with their loss.
I heard about the fire and all I thought was "damn that sucks. Such a historic and beautiful structure destroyed." the thought of any divine punishment never crossed my mind at all.
i think the joke is thinking the French Care what American's think :D "you can keep your freedom fries!" plus the french aren't sure what "Notter daym" is
I think an ironic tragedy is that Notre Dame Cathedral has survived 800 years of use and existence through medieval times and a modern-day renovation, with all of the technology we have today, has damaged it so severely.
Jokes help us deal with tragedy. We tell them to help us better cope with the grief we suffer. One of my favorite stories has to do with Lenny Bruce doing his first show three days after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a national tragedy that lives in the minds of many today. Lenny walked up to the microphone to start the show and said, "Wow! Poor Vaughn Meader". Saying it, Lenny helped start us back on track to recovery.
My joke was the former pope, a couple of days ago, blamed the 1968ers generation for the abuse in the church and WHOosh, god incinerates the biggest church ;) (but I posted it after I heard that noone died in the fire) I have been there and it is a very impressive peice of architecture and hearing of the fire shocked me as much as everyone else.
fire destroyed a major landmark in Paris yesterday and there was notre dame thing they could do about it.
That's pretty funny.
Madison not to make jokes and you go ahead and make a joke? Seems lame to me
@@Knight-Night who's Madison?
This is an example of a harmless joke. Zero nastiness or vitriol. Just a play on words. Someone will get bent out of shape over it though. 😁
A witness reported seeing a man starting the fire. He said he wasn't sure who the man was, though he did have a hunch.
You really have a unique way of articulating what so many of us are thinking. So glad you're one of our strongest voices.
I so appreciate Matt’s pragmatism and reason. Thank you!
I thank God for Jesus saving me from hell. I will answer to God on judgement day not matt.👍👍👍👍👍!!!!!
When I heard the Taliban blew up those opposing religious structures, it was sorrowful because they’re destroying humanities rich heritage.
Not because I actually believed that particular religion.
Ditto
As an atheist, I enjoy visiting cathedrals. I tend to ignore the religious aspects of the buildings and view them instead as monuments to the people in centuries past who were able to conceive and build such beautiful edifices. It's clear that many talented craftsmen were inspired to make wonderful things for us to enjoy nearly (or more than) a millennia later. The fact they were inspired by belief in a deity is irrelevant for the most part. No god ever picked up a chisel or installed a piece of stained glass. Places like Notre Dame are less symbols of church power today than museums of a portion of our shared history and heritage, either for good or bad. If I go to the Temple of Karnac in Egypt, I don't have to believe in Ra to enjoy the architecture. I don't have to believe in Juno to appreciate the design of the Parthenon. Likewise, I don't have to believe in Jesus to mourn the loss of history in Notre Dame.
If we're all just wet bags of cells that got here by chance, how come there is even such a thing as a beauty? Shouldn't your position be "stuff happens, then other stuff happens, move on"? Why is the beauty of this collection of objects created by people who are just random expressions of the universal engine even relevant to an Atheist's life??
@@treblepet Why do you need god to think something aestheticly pleasing? Why do ypu need god to appreciate the History, the hard work and achievements of building something like Notre Dame. These are "just things" but atheists still have emotions and feelings as do all human beings. God isn't needed for that.
@@treblepet i was just trying to explain the meaning of ignorant to my grand children ,
i just showed them your post , and now they know. cheers
@@garymilne8900 Onya Gary. Never address the topic, go directly for insulting the person. Your "grand children" will be proud.
@@Pedantic_Brit Your feelings are but electrical impulses you can't control. It's all predestined in the fact you are but a domino falling against other dominoes. You think something is pleasing to you, but it's an illusion of electricity and proteins in a hapless chemical soup of meaninglessness. If you think you are enjoying something, or you think something is beautiful, it's simply your arrangement of brain cells triggering to impulses. It means nothing at all.
I made a joke at Fox news , they deleted , but all I say was , (I'm glad Jesus wasn't home so he didn't have to die again ), they got mad lol
that's a shite joke.
@@jackflackers8326 I think it's funny as hell :D
Lol
Brilliant.
@@jackflackers8326 HAHAHA oh c'mon hahahaha it's hahahahaaaaa fucking hahahaha funny! Whaaahaa he haha he hahaha he actually DID say hahahahaaaaa something nice WHOEHAAAAHAAA!!!
French atheist here. I might be donating to rebuild the cathedral, if what has been raised so far isn't enough.
I am gutted by the loss of such an irreplaceable cultural asset. I am disgusted by the morons who try to turn this into a political/religious argument. But I do find it funny how some religious people are desperate to find a miracle in all this mess, while others see some kind of message from God. Basically if the cathedral stands for 800 years, it's a sign of God's might, if it burns down, it's a sign of God's wrath, if some part is saved, it's a miracle, and so on. As you often say, it really is "heads I win, tails you lose".
The "raking the attic" joke was absolutely hilarious, though. What a worldwide embarrassment Trump is. Please vote him out in 2020, I think the world's had enough winning for the rest of the 21st century
Well, the cathedral is a Catholic monument. The Catholic Church could have given money to the poor but they decided to use their wealth to build a Cathedral instead.
It's worth considering the number of jobs that will be available, the small businesses supported, and the help it will give to a major French industry (tourism).
As an atheist, I think you are an idiot. But go ahead and donate.
Damien,
This cathedral is a major tourist attraction in Paris. Don't know how much it'll cost to rebuild, but in sure they'll pay it. The cathedral is insured, too.
Ari MF Shapiro it will cost 100s of millions of euros and a couple of French billionaires in France have already pledged millions of euros (not the catholic church). The pope is busy sending thoughts and prayers.
My personal favourite joke about Notre Dame is that while authorities are investigating the cause of the fire Quasimodo has a hunch about it .
I was an art history major in my first year in college. Notre Dame was one of my professor's favorite pieces of architecture and we studied it extensively. Watching it burn..was like watching the loss of an old friend. 😔
Notre Dame is far more than just a religious building; it is one of the pinnacles of human achievement in art, architecture and engineering. Many lifetimes of skilled labour have been devoted to its construction and maintenance over many centuries. There is no joy to be taken in such a tragic fire. However, as a true Brit, I am a firm believer in the value of laughter in the face of adversity. I've not heard any jokes about the fire, but if I hear a good one, I shall take joy in the joke, NOT in the damage to the cathedral. Taking a longer term view, the cathedral will be rebuilt. A new generation of craftsmen and women will have an opportunity to make their contribution to this great building, and in a few hundred years, it will be seen as just another episode in its great history. Incidentally, fire broke out in the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem within hours of the Notre Dame fire. It seems to have been doused fairly quickly and I hope no major damage has been done.
Jon Paddick you mean pinnacles of French achievement right? (Sorry I’m French, we don’t have many things we can brag about but when we have, we do ^^)
@@puyopuyo75 Well yes, a pinnacle of French achievement, but do you not think that, greater even than that, it's a pinnacle of human achievement?
@@puyopuyo75 Last time i checked, the French were human...😜
Jon Paddick agreed I was kinda joking
Ray thanks for noticing😉
I'm just glad they saved the religious relics. The crown of thorns, holy spear, piece of the cross, holy grail, you know, all that real stuff.
Yes! Thank God for guiding that evidence to safety.
Best joke. Great delivery.
Thanks for posting this well thought-out commentary on this tragic event and explaining how humor can be a useful way for people to cope after-the-fact and not. I especially appreciate how you explored all angles involved and how much care you took in communicating your position.
Look, I'm just glad Quasimodo made it out unscathed.
He was the one responsible...
They asked him how the fire started and he said he didn't know, but he had a hunch.
@@machintelligence lmao. So silly. But I giggled like an idiot.
"SANCTUARY!"
@@machintelligence And for the next couple of years the hunchback will be living in his hatchback.
Edit: And I know that was a dumb joke. I'm a dad. It comes with the territory.
Thanks for speaking out, Matt. Humor is a way to cope with difficult situations. By its very nature it is edgy and pushes boundaries, and it's true that we have to be careful how we wield it. I was genuinely saddened to see history burning, and was hugely relieved to hear that nobody was hurt (and, secondly, that the damage to irreplaceable artifacts was limited). I also joked about it a little with my friends. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
@drdavid I didn't know that...that sucks. Could have easily been far worse though
Sounds like I'm not the only atheist who loves old churches. Good job, Matt!
Visit some old churches in Latin America, as I have done (ad nauseum) admire the enormous local resources, particularly the golf-leaf on statues and icons required to build these useless monoliths, then consider the neglect and poverty all around and the corruption and indifference of the Catholic church industry.
@drdavid Well the Catholics might stop being encouraged to "breed for god" just for starters. Your paradigm is a bit bleak even for a Dystopian. Cheer up mate.
Hitchens mentions his appreciation of churches in God Is Not Great. He also does the Philip Larkin poem, "Churchgoing." Read it here: www.shigeku.org/xlib/lingshidao/waiwen/larkin.htm
@@Longtack55 It's a sad truth that every significant monument was built out of suffering. It's only when most wealth and power is concentrated in a few people that you have the resources to build things like the pyramids, cathedrals, and even the Empire State Building.
Not a fan of religion or old churches but Matt is awesome to the subject at hand
I already saw an article about how a cross was left standing after the blaze and people are already proclaiming the power of Jesus and such... Just had to roll the eyes and move along.
Yea, I was afraid that was going to happen... "this or that survived, it is a miracle and now our religion has been validated.."
I love old arctecture. There is something humbling to walk through an old building regardless. This is a piece of that era's culture. I'm sad about the loss of that. However I do enjoy a good joke. So I can both be sad for the loss and appreciate the irony of a church burning just before easter
I've only visited the Cologne cathedral. And documentaries I have watched, all the cathedrals are as gigantic and amazing, particularly that some still stand because of the poor building on some, and the historical destructive moments they survived.
Would be as sad if the Hagia Sophia were to be ruined or any other historical building, or any ruins of historical buildings like Athens Parthenon or leaning tower of Pisa were to collapse more.
These structures are reminders of humanities' past in the present for us to ponder the future.
For them to be destroyed by whatever cause, leaves an emptiness and uncertainty in the present and immediate future. Like the eventually complete loss of Library of Alexandria and its associated depository, so much was lost and will never be recovered, how far did that set back human technology and morality?
It just sucks. Was horrified when various radicals were toppling and blowing up ruins of Palmyra. It's tantamount to burning books.
To see any of these places and things destroyed is a tragedy for humanity, a self inflicted or just by misfortune of a natural disaster, a human brainectomy.
@@jmitterii2 absolutely
Architecture.
@@Multi1628 thx for looking out LoL. Retyped it out like three different times and was like...fuck it... Close enough loli
IF YOU REALLY DONT BELIEVE IN GOD.... THEN TAKE A LIE DETECTOR TEST FOR THE WORLD TO SEE THE RESULTS.... SEE IF YOU'RE LYING OR NOT WHEN IT COMES TO BELIEVING IN GOD'S EXISTENCE... YOU KNOW THAT GOD EXIST...
Matt, I have listened to most of your videos from the atheist experience. And some other debates on other programs. And I become a huge fan of yours every time. Much respect to you!
Thank you Matt for this. Explanations like this help our cause, I believe.
Matt, you're such a voice of reason.
It is a building. A piece of cultural and artistic heritage. The damage is painful, but jokes are a good way of dealing with pain, and pricking ideological bubbles that can exploit pain, if well judged. It is up to each individual to judge this well, and call out others who do not.
No jokes are good, no matter how you try and angle that position...
@@dignerds - Never insult a building people care deeply about, right? It's sooo mean. Huh? Lol
@@dignerds Utterly wrong. Many jokes are a moral good, bringing more happiness than they cause pain.
There was a joke denigrating Nazis using a pug that was utterly hilarious, and worthy of the sort of things those going to face (and be killed by) the Nazis used to keep morale up.
It got a comedian a criminal record (as a hate criminal) such that he will never get a decent job again. See Count Dankula.
That is why I had the second clause, as ridiculing bad stuff is a vital correction mechanism, that identity politics tries to ban.
I'd say that the French actually might be able to use that defense. But not anybody else. There is no possible way for us, people living in different parts of the world, to comprehend the horror they must have been going through. If _they_ need to resort to comedy, sure, that's their prerogative. But for everyone else this is just laughing at someone's suffering, pure schadenfreude. For us to laugh at it, is just punching down.
Gallows humor is when you're able to laugh while you're at your own execution. For everyone else, it's just laughing at someone getting killed.
For the same reason, Dankula doesn't get to train a pug to do a nazi salute. A Jew might be able to get away with it. But not a guy living in a privileged position of having the luxury to be unable to comprehend the horrors of the nazi regime.
@@Arrakiz666 I am able to empathise with different people.
Can an admirer of architecture, who is not French, feel the same things? Presumably not.
Can a non-Buddhist be pained by the Taliban blowing up statues? Or a non-Babylonian by DAESH trashing relics?
Should I never tell Trump or Clinton jokes, because I'm not American?
This is why I included my clause about ideological bubbles: I am sick of being told I can't share the thoughts of my fellow humans who are irrelevantly different in some arbitrary way. From this follow demands for special treatment and separate 'representation'.
Although I'm not religious, I can appreciate the history of the building and even visited it when it was intact. The fire is nothing to joke about in my opinion.
Isn't that what Joan of Arc said?
As the flames rose to her Roman nose and her Walkman started to melt?
Da roof, da roof, da roof is on fire.
Edit: Oh shit, I just remembered the rest of the lyrics XD Joke's on me I guess XD Ah well, a joke is a joke :D
I have a deep dislike for religious ideas, but love the shapes n forms found within their sacred buildings. Some people struggle to separate one from the other. I love Matt a little more today. 😁
@Ad Lockhorst Just as well I don't follow any religion then, eh. What is your point?
~ Thank you, Matt, for speaking on this - greatly appreciated. Cheers, DAVEDJ ~
As I was watching coverage about the Notre Dame fire on the national evening news yesterday, I couldn't help but think to myself similar comments such as the ones Matt referenced like "why would your god let this happen?". That same though carried over into a later news story about the killer tornados the struck the other day. I woman who survived a tornado that destroyed her house was being interviewed by a reporter while standing in the decimated remains of her home. She stated that she took shelter under the wooden stairs as her house literally exploded all around her but thanked her god for saving her life after she prayed for it to spare her. Again, I'm thinking to myself "why would your god let this happen?". She claimed that, out of this tragedy, her future is now brighter than ever before. My mouth is just hanging open in disbelief.
If something good happens, praise god, he cause it.
If something bad happens, praise god, it could’ve been worse.
It’s really a sad state of mental pretzeling they put themselves through. God wins no matter what happens!
Maybe she struggled with materialism, and God allowed that to happen to make her appreciate and understand, that her life is much more valuable than things. Or, maybe it was for a completely different reason, that is still for her good. We don’t know the big picture. But, God does.
@@crystalrauh7541 God doesen´t know shit, same as you.
They thank god instead of doctors too. Frustrating to listen to. No thanks to the carpenters who designed the staircase. No thanks to the researchers, nurses, doctors, janitors, etc. who make the medicine and the hospital possible. Idiots.
man I'm so glad he decided to start pronouncing it correctly partway through the video. Great video Matt! Keep up the good work!
The only joke that occurred to me was "whoever is responsible is going to have to do 5 million Hail Mary's after this!"
Thanks, this made me rethink a wise crack I made while watching the news a few days after the fact.
Whenever one slips into sadness or lament over this, (knowing it will be resurrected) he/she must entertain the mass murder and war carried on in the name of this institution. The artists who gave their time, talent, blood, sweat and tears to its completion either cost-free, while under coercion or out of complete necessity are those we should revere. Thank you, @Matt Dillahunty
I don't think that's useful. Those are criticisms to the institution, not to the monument. To what extent it was built by extortion (or with many of the great Wonders, downright slavery) I think is nothing to dwell on. Nobody's helped by such thoughts, and often such thoughts inspire anger and the wish for destruction.
Which imo would merely double the tragedy.
@@sorsocksfake ignoring History gets us no where good and that is a fact. Anger, and the wish for destruction, I would consider that passion. Passion gains change... and the Roman Catholic church needs CHANGE.... it needs to die imho
@@sorsocksfake You can't separate the historical monument from it's history, or the history surrounding it's building. We shouldn't discard history, we need to learn from it, and learn that given the chance the Catholic Church would be a force for evil again in the world. We should never forget history, else we're doomed to repeat it.
However, you can also enjoy the architecture and craftsmanship for it's own sake, but never forget that that cathedral does represent oppression, murder and death, because of the institution that it was a part of. Catholicism, as well as Christianity in general, has a lot to answer for.
Great video Matt, awesome message. From one of your French follower: merci beaucoup!
My 12year old son for a project at school, painstakingly hand built an intricate small scale model of the Duomo di Milano Cathedral, only for yours truly to accidentally destroy it reversing the car into the garage where he'd left it for me to take it to the school for assessment. He is still devastated about it 14 months later. So I can only imagine how the caretakers of Notre dame must be feeling right now.🤷🏽♂️
Spending billions of dollars to rebuild it is a disgrace and that money could be used in such better ways to help the poor and homeless
Ad Lockhorst you have a point regarding the tourism aspect of its worth. Sure, it’s 100% worthless as far as whether or not it’s a “holy” building, but it brings France a lot of money!
I mock not because of strategy or anything like that. Mostly because of the irony. But definitely because now they understand the loss that our world felt when they burned libraries and other locations simply for not agreeing with them.
@Oners82 it's the irony that's funny, read the comment. He doesn't "revel" because the building was severly damaged, it's a tragic incident with a lot of humor surrounding it.
@Oners82 So your point is that the Catholic Church was pretty much like ISIS before it was moderated by the secular world....
@Free Thought Pittsburgh - Are you really that incredibly ignorant, or are you that spectacularly biggoted? Maybe instead of just spewing your hate and ignorance, you should educate yourself with truth and knowledge. The comment that you have stated sounds just like those ignorant and vile religious zealots. Read a book instead of making idiotic assertions on the internet.
@Oners82 No, I was bringing the focus back to the Catholic Church because the responsibility was deflected. I understood exactly what you were saying, I just used a subtle twist in your point to make a statement against it. As a previous commenter pointed out, the original commenter did not revel in it as you said, he mocked it because of irony and that is not the same thing as actively destroying monuments out of bigotry and hate.
The reasoning isn't even the same. The commenter was laughing at the irony. ISIS and the Catholic Church have literally destroyed monuments. The commenter has not. Also, ISIS and the Catholic Church didn't destroy monuments because they thought it was ironic lol. What, are they a bunch of hipsters or something? Also, ISIS isn't destroying monuments because the Catholic Church did it too. They are destroying other religion's monuments because they have a deep seeded belief in their ideology that compels them to destroy them in the name of their God. Same as the Catholic Church did.
My guess is that you have an religious attachment to the cathedral and it hurt you when someone wasn't as sad about it as you. You recognize that the Catholic Church has done some horrible stuff but you still want to defend what you believe is sacred. So you attempted to discredit his point by trying to tie him to the horrible acts of ISIS and the Catholic Church. Unfortunately for you, I read your point and annihilated it.
@Oners82 "If you want to talk about the Catholic Church and it's crimes that's fine, but don't say that that was my point when you know very well it wasn't; that is just dishonest."
I didn't say that you said it. I said I TWISTED the POINT around TO MAKE FUN of what you said. What part of this do you not understand?
"What I said is that anybody who takes glee in the situation because they dislike the church is using the same REASONING as ISIS when they destroy artefacts"
My rebuttal was in the paragraph that I wrote that begins with "The reasoning isn't even the same....". You said it was red herrings when I literally compared the two motivations side by side and showed that they aren't the same. This is a directly addresses your statement "because they disagree with the institution it represents is using exactly the same perverse reasoning that ISIS does". You said it was the same, I compared them and showed that they were in fact not the same. On what planet are you living on?
"And did I say that mocking the situation was the same as actively destroying artefacts?"
Word play, you expect us to believe that you had NO INTENTION of making an equivalency when you LITERALLY said "That is the kind of insane reasoning that ISIS uses to destroy ancient buildings and artefacts that are now lost forever." NO INTENTION? Do you really think ANYONE with a brain is going to believe that bullshit?
"And I'm not defending the church in any way, I just happen to love gothic architecture and it is a tragedy when we lose it"
Ok, so remove "religious attachment" and just substitute sentimental attachment and just replay my statement.
Keep it coming, I'll knock this shit out the park all day
I haven't searched for, or seen any jokes about the fire. But I've seen things I concider a joke.
1) People praying for the church, during the fire
2) Conspiracies about it being an insider joke
3) That they had saved the "crown" supposedly worn by Christ when he hang on the cross
4) That is is a terrorism act done by muslims.
The latter, the "terrorist act" is a joke, because it can not be a terrorist act. At the most it can be vandalism. Even if done by radical people.
My feelings about the fire:
It's a church, I don't care. But it's a historic building and that's sad.
Btw., I have a problem with the incident being called a tragedy as this normally involves hurting people.
Surely you didn't look hard enough. I saw people joking about "race wars", though technically it would be a sectarian one. People joking about how Macron did it and will have yellow vests pay for it. And it is a tragedy... a monument to human ability, stood for 850 years... you are on point about the crown though..
@@marinaproger2324 - I didn't look for any jokes at all. I don't see the point.
@@akyhne don't even need to look... I was watching a livestream and Europeans were saying it in chat. Europe is messed up something terrible.
Pretty much how I feel about it. I've been so lucky as to have seen comments saying the fire has the 'globalists' dancing in the streets
Just noting that while technically true, the "terrorism" statement likewise applies to 9/11. Terrorists, technically, try to extort political concessions from threat; that's not the case in these.
But in a broader definition, we tend to include destruction of monuments, major symbols of a state for ideological/political reasons, which would qualify here if it were the cause.
To be clear: I don't believe that.
And it is a tragedy: it is a major loss of culture and art. Whether or not you personally care for it, surely you can accept that for a great many people that's something we value.
Personally I may be a bit twisted on it, but I recall with ISIS it hurt me [even] more when they destroyed thousands-years old art, than the countless people they murdered. Not sure why, but it feels like ripping out the soul from a society.
Thanks Matt for your thoughts on this magnificent building. I'm sad because of France's, indeed the world's loss. Your points about jokes are right on!
It says a lot when people will mourn the loss of a building but ignore the tragedies happening around the globe. A building can be conceptualized while human suffering is far more uncomfortable and doesn't have an obvious end. It's just easier to feel sad about a structure, than face the complexities of human inequality, war, famine, disease, and ultimately mortality.
Mourning the loss of history, as if it wasn't already dust with no one left to remember... We are a strange species. We conceptualize mortality in our buildings and avoid seeing it in the eyes of those suffering.
I’m an atheist and do not care for religion whatsoever. But, the fire yesterday, I just looked at it like a museum burned down.
Ben Shapiro’s tweet seems to have landed him in some hot water. While I thought it was some what funny, I know if the tables are turned on him he’d freak out and be calling for a public hanging.
Ben Shapiro seems to act like a hypocritical asshole more than not. I don't trust him at all.
Shapiro and the woman who called him out are equal parts asshole and attention whores. He did contribute to an overall environment of "our great western culture is better than yours and our religion is important" but he didn't actually attack anyone. More of an indirect lobbing of a moltatov cocktail that fizzled out, than bomb throwing. He's an idiot and a jerk, and so are the people spending more time listening to him, and commenting on his comments, than actually addressing the real issues they're complaining about.
Matt, I say that you nailed it! Everything you said in this video is spot on. I'm a huge fan of yours, and a fan of Tracie's as well. I love the show, it's both entertaining, and educational, and it's WONDERFUL. I am an Atheist, Anti-theist, and can't believe anything for which there is no evidence. THis is one of the most refreshing videos you've ever done, My respect and admiration for you and the Atheist Experience team is incredible!
I thank you for everything you've done to expand the cause of Atheism, if it can be called a 'cause'!
"Send $$$, not prayers." - Your Church.
Seriously though, I was lucky enough to visit Notre Dame, it is one of the most amazing cathedrals I was into, it played important part in European history (and literature). And it was magnet for tourists. I hope it gets rebuilt, but I would like it to be reborn as historical monument rather than church.
Makes me a little sad to think that some of the most incredible architecture was inspired by nonsense.
Wow, Matt - Thank you! I have just now watched your reading of the birthday letter from your parents (mostly from your mum, it seems) and it almost made me cry. It is so consoling to know, that I am not the only one to live with this sort of bull crap. At times I feel like the loneliest person in the world. My religious upbringing has been a major source of the depressions, that have been following me throughout my half life (I'm 44). Living in Denmark, there is the extra dimension to the problem, that religion is pretty rare here, and therefore it is also rare to meet people who understand. I mostly meet it in younger muslims who have turned their backs on the bull crap.
I think the jokes are fine... depending on the joke. A joke a made yesterday during class wasn’t serious and my friends understood that. We were listening to a news broadcast and one of the reporters was quoting a bystander who said that god has protected the cathedral and said, “well not good enough it seems.” It was an easy joke to make. I think that the loss of architecture and art that has been around for 800 years is shitty and it sucks. I was incredibly bummed about it when I heard. Thankfully the structure is still there so renovation is possible.
@Oners82 I don't think they do. Everything is about STEM now.
Fellas, I get it, I could’ve worded it better. This isn’t a fucking English paper.
@@anphor1a , no, it's not an English paper, but it is a place that you're trying to communicate your thoughts to others. If you can't be bothered to make the tiny effort required to do so clearly, why do it at all?
wunnell
I’ve already fixed it, what more do you want? I’m sorry I don’t proofread a comment on UA-cam.com before clicking send, my bad.
@@anphor1a
*"what more do you want?"*
For you to not complain about legitimate criticism and to try to avoid similar mistakes in future.
My husband and I are both Atheists and have been Atheists for over 40 years.
He had the opportunity to see Notre Dame in person when he was in his teens; he was upset because it is a wonderful structure and to see something that old being destroyed is hard. The building is an awe inspiring building as it has incredible cultural and architectural significance. The architectural techniques used to over come structural engineering problems shows the genius that is man and for that reason alone it is a tragedy.
Don't know that I'd go as far as "tragedy." Shit happens. It's a 850 year old building. As long as people didn't die, it's just wood and stone. What raises my eyebrow is that they've raised $800mil in less than 16hr to rebuild that cathedral....but 3500-4000 homeless people also living in Paris according to a census done in March (not including refugee camps moved away from Paris). Get some perspective...it's just an old pretty building.
What stunning and willful ignorance.
@@johndavid4007 it's true tho.. it's an old building, there are other things that have more value, like people or nature... and it seems like society don't care when those get damaged.
I totally agree.
"Donating for something, does not imply that you don't donates for other things."
;)
@@J0Etj That's true. On the other hand, over $1Billion (last report I saw) donated for the building at the same time 3500 people sleep rough in the same city DOES imply that people who donated to the building at the VERY LEAST donate in much smaller measures to causes like homelessness, etc. And you and I both know there are a lot of donors to the cathedral rebuild, that have never donated to any other charitable causes in a similar amount. We can pretend that they might (because we have no proof that any individual didnt), but the numbers, news reports and a governmental plan (formed and announced in less than 2 days) tell us everything we need to know about priorities. (And don't get me wrong, I don't blame Frenchmen more than any other human...they just provide a stark example this week.)
I have family photos taken whilst we visited Notre Dame , also at Salisbury Cathedral, Winchester, York , Chichester, St Vitus in Prague, the great Pyramids and a small Church in Poland, amongst other places. They are all wonderful monuments to human endeavour, and worthy of our support.
As an atheist, even I am saddened because hundreds if not thousands of people have lost their income.
It sucks.
I suspect that you may well be wrong, it could be that even more come to see the ruins, even more come to see the rebuilding, then to top up the vatican funds, yet more come to see the finished product after reconstruction.
Wonder why the vatican, the richest nation on the planet (per head of population) is relying on public support to rebuild, could they not afford insurance, or was it perhaps that they erroneously thought that the guy in the sky would look after that side of the business?????
@butch oblick As I write it would appear that something like half a billion has been raised to help with the rebuilding. That is great as it is indeed a historic building (but once rebuilt, will it still be?), however it makes me wonder if people are willing to pay this towards brick and mortar, then why o why not do something for the good of humanity instead, the owner of the building has more than enough money conned out of the gullible to build thousands of places to worship the sky fairy?
EDIT Ps. gawd loves OUR money.
@butch oblick We share our type of location, I also am in a developing country and I know what even a little money can do to change people's lives, a little money and a shitload of education works wonders.
@butch oblick I was quite disgusted by the difference in the amounts of money that are raised for saving lives, curing disease, helping people build and rebuild towns and getting drinking water and the money raised for a freaking building in just a few days and then the tax returns of 50 to 90% on that. I get that culture is important and worth some effort, but what the hell? Since when is it worth more than a human life?
Maybe those people donated even more to other good causes, but something stops me from believing that France donated an amount just shy of one third of their GDP to saving lives.
Several abandoned churches here in the UK are converted into really cool looking apartments.
As regards ND, what frustrated me was that there was so much focus on the loss of the building people were forgetting the sterling job the emergency services did in getting it out and preventing it spreading to nearby homes and businesses, and preventing the loss of a single life.
My joke was about Quasimodo saying "the bells" and Sam le Pompier (the French version of Fireman Sam) replying "No, it's our sirens!"
Waiting for charlie hebdo's drawings.
Now personally i don't understand why it's a tragedy. It's not someone's house/home, not an orphanage/shelter and most importantly no human lives were lost.
It will be rebuilt.
What is to be made of the yellow vest movement, which has been going on for the past 5 months or so, if the notre dame church is such a tragedy?
It's not a tragedy, well except for the tourism industry. As for the yellow vest movement, the tragedy is in the continual destructions and negations of individual rights that are made in new laws by the actual governement. Or in the continual impoverishment of the lower middle class and the lower class that are concerned by the original movement.
As fort the Charlie Hebdo's drawings, you may be very disapointed: since the last real tragedy in that place, the content is far more tame. And it already was a few years before the now famous drawings. Among the deceased of that day, many had extremely critical views of religion in general, and yet, there was a mass in their honor in - here is the twist - Notre Dame Cathedral. I don't know if families or authorities didn't care about their personal wishes, or if the victims had changed their minds along the years, but in fine, there was this big commemoration (that I found quite hypocritical). So how will it play now ? I don't know. But the futur drawings you are anticipating could very well be anything but funny.
- it’s always a tragedy, when an 859 yr old architectural splendour is destroyed. I’m an atheist but I love history, especially medieval historical buildings. Yes many are religious but the architectural styles are amazing.
_It's not a tragedy, well except for the tourism industry._
This. And it's a good way for the president to show that he cares about people's incomes, even though tourism wouldn't decrease because of it, but who the fuck cares, it's almost time for elections.
And it's a good way for larger companies to show that they care about people's incomes, even though they get somewhere between 66%-90% back of their donations from tax money.
It's sad, but a tragedy would be if they spend a third of France's GDP on self promotion instead of actually improving and saving lives and yes, that is exactly what happens. Almost a billion dollars in tax money will be paid to the donators and the GDP of France is 2.9 billion.
I wept for the church of Notre Dame, because it's was a mark of human history. It wasn't built by a god, no matter what you believe. It was constructed by human minds and hands unified on a single goal, producing such a marvelous work of art, and that's what makes my atheist heart weep.
I sent my thoughts and prayers to put out the fire....... didn't work.
We have to cross the beams! Care bears, beam! With your powers combined, I AM Captain PLanet!
Oh, I had a BBQ that day and I sacrificed a stack of lambs and asked god if he could make it a sunny day. Sorry mate. Sacrifice > prayers. You should read the bible more :p
On a positive note, perhaps more positive than stuff surviving the fire, are the bees that were living on the Notre Dame roof that survived.
I wept to see this magnificent human cultural achievement in flames. I am an ex Catholic atheist but this wonderful building has gone beyond religion. Notre Dame its building and contents are part of the glory of western culture. TED
Nice and thoughtful as almost always...
How about this joke, "man did you hear about that service at Notre dame, I heard it was lit"
I was fortunate enough to visit Norte Dame some years ago, and was astounded by the artistic beauty of the building and objects it contained. It’s a really tragedy that it burned.
Got to see Notre Dame when I was stationed in Germany and I cried when I saw it burning.
So I assume you visited France while you were stationed in Germany?
@@grumpyotter Well, that's a lot better than what i first thought I read:' You have got to go and see the Notre Dame when it was stationed in Germany...'
I don't have dyslexia, but it's not far off XD
Anyone else find the instant raising of $.5 billion to fix this more than a little insulting to the traditional targets of charity (you know, humans)?
I mean, is Notre Dame REALLY worth more than the MILLIONS OF LIVES that could be helped by that money??
I have been there many years ago and the historical value is awesome. I am an agnostic but was very sad for what happened. In my opinion this has nothing to do with religion.
It's refreshing to see someone who isn't saying "Don't make jokes". I don't have any that come to mind, nor do I care to fashion any, but it's nice to see that you recognize humor isn't inherantly malicious
Jokes are simply one of the ways we deal with tragedy.
Guys, this was just an old building burning down. No one was killed. The only sad thing about it is all the hunchbacks who were made homeless.
What breaks my heart is we lost a very important piece of architectural art. I love art☹☹☹....
I am an atheist and have visited the Notre Dame, I was so pleased I did visit it, I will never forget the work that was involved in building it, The stairs to the place where the priest stands up there and prays, was something I will never forget, the work was literally out of this world and I do not believe that they can build it the way it was, I hope they can.
Matt, thank-you for weighing in with compassion and rationality.
Compassion toward a building? Ok.
Like millions of other people, I've been to Notre Dame. I loved the stained glass windows, the structure, the artifacts. I considered in amazement the effort involved in creating this massive structure and its contents. What's more important is what time in history this was accomplished. They didn't have petroleum powered vehicles. They improvised technology. They had sheer manpower. It is remarkable for that reason alone. I felt the power of mankind that could create such a structure. But I never felt the hand of God in this effort. That didn't diminish my amazement.
All jokes aside...
What a beautiful piece of historical architecture that was destroyed. The billion plus dollars raised could be used far better than to rebuild a building used for lies and deception
I am glad noone was lost their life... however how many people were killed in the name of the religion worshipped within the walls of that building? And over the 800+ years on the grounds where the building sits how many in the name of god!
And all the lies told within the walls. All the news feeds are saying here are that the priceless artifacts (including the crown of thorns that jesus ACTUALLY WORE) were saved. How many people have been sucked in to tithe for these outragous lies!
Thank god noone died!
Completely agree. I often say leave the jokes to the professionals. That being written I was triggered when someone from msnbc announced that thankfully the crown of thorns worn by Jesus during his crucification was saved. Now in all fairness they said a symbolic crown but did go on to say that it did contain one REAL thorn from the original. Well, I lost it after hearing that. How can one not shake their head at such nonsense?
My first response was who cares because I hate the Catholic Church.. but I realized it was short sighted and it’s sad to see.but to be honest if the same thing happened to Vatican City I would genuinely be happy and I couldn’t care less what anyone thinks
I wonder how much public money will go to help rebuild? The vatican has more money than god, shouldn't they pay for it all?
In the 80s a group called Meibion Glyndwr (Sons of Glyndwr - a famous Welsh leader) started torching unoccupied holiday cottages bought by foreigners, which had the effect of inflating house prices beyond the reach of some locals.
At the same time there was a Calor advert with the tagline "Come home to a real fire."
This prompted the joke "Come home to a real fire... Buy a cottage in Wales!"
I still find that funny.
BTW... The police in France were inundated with calls about a potential suspect. Though they weren't quite certain who he is, his name does ring a bell.
My thumbs up puts the numbers at 666, ooooh!
P.S. Great little speech Matt. Love your work.
Lol I always notice this too! Lol I was a Christian until I was about 38, so that number is always noticed. But I also notice 420, 69, 25, and even numbers on comments 😋
Carrie W Thanks. Yes I find it odd that things always seem to happen in threes to me. Cognitive bias I guess.
Church or not, Notre Dame is an incredible example of architecture and history. As an atheist, I appreciate how much of a monumental loss this is for civilization. Mostly just grateful no one was injured.
Historic cathedrals should be preserved, like the Buddhas of Bamyan. The average little church or mosque should eventually be bulldozed or converted to a useful purpose though.
Jokes aren't there to help efforts and they are irrelevant to your feelings about them. They're just jokes. Don't overthink it.
I think this demonstrates how messed up the world is when people are far more concerned about inanimate objects than human lives (ie money donated to have it rebuilt, rather than for other tragedies where people are losing their lives). It reminds me of the Burt Lancaster movie ‘The Train’. In that film a Nazi German Colonel was trying to move stolen art out of Paris and into Germany; murdering unarmed civilians in the process.
It's only a building. Old one for sure, but still just a building.
A billion dollar building now... Ah well... science, education and health are overrated anyway. When we're dead the building will still be there!
I'm so glad I'm not French. I would probably donate half my income to causes that actually matter, just out of shame.
It's cultural heritage as well.
“Laughs are exactly as honorable as tears. Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion, to the futility of thinking and striving anymore. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Palm Sunday: An Autobiographical Collage
That being said: French fire investigators have found that the fire was started by sunlight being magnified through a discarded bottle which ignited sandwich and biscuit wrappers left by workers…the cause was the Lunchpack of Notre Dame …
In other news Quasimodo Renamed Hunchback of Nearby Holiday Inn.
So clever. I'm jealous I wasn't able to to come up with that on my own
@@davidoshea5598
Don't feel bad, I totally stole it.
HOLLY SMOKES! That was a good joak. Lol.
best one yet! LOL
I teared up when I heard it burned because of its place in the history of Europe, but specifically in the history of Western music. I don't know how well this has been covered because I haven't been paying much attention, but I bet that most people don't know how -- if walls could talk -- the walls of Notre Dame would tell of the very beginnings of what we have come to understand as "Western Music", where the church provided the space and the context and the educational resources for monks to codify and study the various theories of how music worked and to propose the "rules" that became the modes and diatonic scales still dominant in every popular music today, and turned with terror and awe at what it meant to have two different notes sung together at the same time.. There was magic connected to intervals and melodic bits that could turn language (and people's names) into sequences of tones in a way that would seem very natural to the aliens of Close Encounters. You could easily argue that these conversations and roots of music had been occurring for a long time and even at this particular time were happening throughout Europe in various ways. But during the beginnings of Notre Dame's importance, you'd be wrong -- or at least giving too much weight to advances in musical knowledge not headquartered in that building. I'm not sure how many buildings contain walls that might deliver this kind of first-hand testimony of the seeds of a musical language without which no Beethoven or Bach, Ives or Aguilera would produce the same pitches. It's an oversimplification, I know, but too often the modern human takes for granted how general and accessible knowledge is and it's easy to forget that before the internet, and before the printing press and before education was funded by anything but the church, there were loci of accelerated knowledge that covered in years what might otherwise have taken centuries, and these spots were few and far between and this building was one of them.
Of course, this isn't to excuse the tyranny of the church or how the church held humanity back in matters of science and philosophy by a minimum of 1000 years, but that's for another thread and it's not the most notable thing about this particular building, so...
But it has everything to do with religion. While some of the things you said i agree with, there are certain things that i do not. For instance, where does the money that is assembled in the church from millions of tourists go to?
You also talked about the value of the church being a historic monument. How many “monumentally historic” churches we have around the world, churches that do not pay taxes and expand assets to advance religion?
Think about this. I did not make any jokes. However i stated that perhaps it shouldn’t be rebuilt.
drdavid not if you want to see the crypt and the spire. I am not sorry for not finding value in a building (no matter how old it is). There is a high poverty crisis in France.
Ad Lockhorst the reality is that after the fire, it lost its “architectural value”. Rebuilding it is not going to restore work from 800 years ago.
drdavid yeah but you are diverging from my point Dr.
drdavid thank you for the statistics. You are then saying that spending 300 million euros on restoring a building is more important and more pressing than other social issues? Ok. Thank you. No need to continue our discussion. Have a great life.
How many of those churches make money for their cities? Paris considers this one important to its civic life. It brings in revenue. It's initial construction cost has long since been covered. And if its church membership chooses to keep giving money to an organization that needs it, that is their business. IF France wants to tax its churches, it is again, their business. Some countries have taxes their religiuos institutions. I won't be giving them my money, but if there was an historic church like that in my town, we'd probably agree to a tax levy to repair it, for the TOURISM dollars, not to mention historicity. After all, the Alamo was a Mission, and no one bitches about maintaining that. It serves a similar purpose, lending it's architectural style and story to the city and drawing visitors.
Salut from France, I enjoy your videos and point of view.
I came for jokes, got reasonable discourse instead...
The cathedral is a demonstration of what humanity can achieve. Notre Dame is no less an achievement than a Bach mass or a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem. The fact that it was built as a religious monument is important, but that reminds us where we've come from and how much we were able to accomplish at that stage of human development.
Regarding jokes, humor that punches up is feels a lot better upon reflection than humor that punches down.
regardless of the use of notre dame it was a beautiful building and some 800 years old? it is a link to our history and regardless it's use should be saved and loved and admired... i mean fuck this thing survived ww2... most people should be sad that this thing caught fire...
Why wouldn't it survive WW2? France barely fought in it at all
Paris wasn't bombed during WWI. Notre-Dame did, however get badly damaged during the Revolution.
Making a suggestion on how to fight the fire, good or bad, is overwhelmingly better than sending thoughts and prayers.
Quick, pray to extinguish the fire! = Funny joke.
tbh I giggled while reading your comment. So at least I found it funny
Atheist here and I love those old churches!
There have been many fires, loss of beautiful architecture and housing. What are your priorities? My choice would be to help those most in need who are without clean water and a safe place to live.
"Donating for something, does not imply that you don't donates for other things."
"Donating for something, does not imply that it's your priority and that you don't care about anything else."
Great post, Matt. I'm one of those atheists that wept. Art is my work/passion. My college art history classes were the final thing that de-converted me from religion actually. Getting a solid education about how intertwined religion/politics/art were during that period... and throughout history, prompted me to re-assess what lingering beliefs I was holding on to.
But human achievement when it comes to beautiful things, places built for community gatherings, care taken in art/architecture are all valuable to me. Notre Dame matters to me as a cultural landmark. Didn't need any religious belief or attachment to be very emotional seeing the fire and damage (which thankfully was less than feared).
I'm surprised trump didn't suggest building a wall around the fire
I'm not religious but its sad to see a historical building like this burn. What makes me more sad is how much money that has been donated already! Where were the donations when Grenfell tower burnt down, where people lost loved ones and their homes?
This tragedy isn't about religion. It's about black metal.
I can hear Varg laughing..
businessoldier21 by the way does anyone know about The Duke’s whereabouts prior to the fire? 🤭
I did make a couple of jokes, simply because of the irony of it all. There's been numerous people burned in front of that church throughout history, beginning with Knights Templars I believe.
And then there was stupid stuff like: oh good, at least the "crown of thorns" has been saved and calling this a tragedy in the media even though no human lives were lost.
All in all...it's a catholic church and I can't pretend to really care.
Thankfully, the Louvre is still standing.
Last time I heard, Trump suggested that they should store enough wood in the Notre Dame cathedral so that it can be rebuilt the next time there's a fire.
People here in Europe are laughing over Trumps stupid suggestions, regarding the fire.
Should they do it before or after using planes to throw several tons worth of water over Paris to quench _one_ fire?
@@Arrakiz666 Well, if they do it before, the water that they stored might get water damaged. So they should do it afterwards.
It wasn’t the fire that made me weep, but the people outside who formed a street choir and sang for the firefighters that got me. I’ll never forget that
The money it takes to make such a grand cathedral is about religion. The amount of waste done through religion is an issue for some. A building burns down and there was no loss of life. Is that really a tragedy? The money was already wasted. More money will be wasted. I fail to see the tragedy other than that of the religion itself.
Any building of that scope during the time it was built requires lots of money. Regardless of it’s religious roots, it was an amazing building that carries a lot of historical and cultural significance. Even if something contains religious symbolism doesn’t mean it is worthless, I mean look at the Egyptian pyramids and tombs for example. Moreover it was a culturally (and economically-it drew in lots of tourists) significant building to the French, even for those who are non-religious, and I emphasize with their loss.
I heard about the fire and all I thought was "damn that sucks. Such a historic and beautiful structure destroyed." the thought of any divine punishment never crossed my mind at all.
i think the joke is thinking the French Care what American's think :D
"you can keep your freedom fries!"
plus the french aren't sure what "Notter daym" is
Thankfully no one was injured or killed in this fire. My thoughts are with you France!
I think an ironic tragedy is that Notre Dame Cathedral has survived 800 years of use and existence through medieval times and a modern-day renovation, with all of the technology we have today, has damaged it so severely.
GREAT AND RATIONAL AS ALWAYS
Jokes help us deal with tragedy. We tell them to help us better cope with the grief we suffer. One of my favorite stories has to do with Lenny Bruce doing his first show three days after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a national tragedy that lives in the minds of many today. Lenny walked up to the microphone to start the show and said, "Wow! Poor Vaughn Meader". Saying it, Lenny helped start us back on track to recovery.
My joke was the former pope, a couple of days ago, blamed the 1968ers generation for the abuse in the church and WHOosh, god incinerates the biggest church ;)
(but I posted it after I heard that noone died in the fire)
I have been there and it is a very impressive peice of architecture and hearing of the fire shocked me as much as everyone else.
Burn in Hell, Fr. Noone.