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I knew about the abuse of Cave Fang already but I didn't know Stalactites had no friendly damage. So it doesn't require selective metamagic? I had Camellia use Cave Fangs on autocast and I was taking friendly damage so guess I had "Stalagmites" on instead. Anyway this spell is beyond stupid. Compare this to Call Lightling Storm where each activation is a standard action which is just terrible. Both need to be changed to swift action imo.
Stalactictes mode doesn't have friendly fire and also even has a small aoe, but considering it requires Mark of Justice since everything in Wrath has physical DR, the aoe doesn't really make much of a difference.
This fight demonstrates how obscenely powerful the enemies are on Unfair. With enduring spells you get 144 cave fangs, each deals 3d6 damage plus the caster's CHA modifier, that is 436d6 plus 144 times CHA modifier damage, and that still only did about 2/3 of Deakari's HP. How are you supposed to beat him without cheese strats like this on Unfair?
Well, while it is true Unfair is well, unfair, starting from mid game the balance starts to shift heavily in the players favor, at that point we are the ones who become the true Unfair to the enemies. Buffing of course is an absolute must, together with party synergy. Some Mythics will certainly have an easier time than others such as merged Angel & Lich. I have videos here 1 rounding Unfair bosses such as Deskari by just using melee with Trickster party for example: ua-cam.com/video/x_rj_7uCUIc/v-deo.html And Nocticula at Mythic Rank 7 so before level 20/Mythic 9: ua-cam.com/video/X0zh_XVS7zs/v-deo.html
This is just an oversight because this spell is definitely not working as intended. I expect it to be patched soon. (It'll probably become a swift action)
I suppose it could be changed later, but so far it works per the description (which is different than the tabletop version so they adapted it). They could indeed change it to a swift action, although that would change the spell from OP to downright useless. I'm not really sure if Owlcat particularly cares about nerfs (unlike other devs) unless it's an oversight or bug. My guess is if they ever reduce the power, they'll probably change the duration or per use cost to prevent so many stalactites being spammed in a single round, as opposed to just making it once/round (swift).
@@cRPGBro I probably would hard cap the uses to +1 every 4(?) the caster level so it can be used 5-8 times per round before recasting. which could deal about 180-300 damage per round, which is pretty strong for a level 5 spell.
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not? Camellia: I am helpful, am I not? Camellia: I am helpful, am I not? Camellia: I am helpful, am I not? Camellia: I am helpful, am I not? Camellia: I am helpful, am I not? Camellia: I am helpful, am I not? ...
Oh I was wondering how to make it work. I play a druid and I got the 24 hour amount but it kept doing zero damage on higher difficulties like hard and unfair. I didn't realize you needed Mark of Justice!
Yes! Unfortunately many demons have high phys DR, and Cave Fangs does physical damage. I have not tried, but I believe you can also use the ring that turns all damage into force damage for 1 round, but you are still going to lose the bonus damage from Mark of Justice, ideally you should use both!
@@cRPGBro Oh thank you for your response. So I can use the ring instead of having a paladin as I really don't like Seelah, lol. Where can I get this ring? Thanks! Edited: Okay I see the ring is from crusade mode which I turned off =(. Is there any other way other than using a Paladin to bypass DR?
Yes, you forgot something ... arcane trickster can add a sneak attack to this magic :) There will be at least + 12d6, one trap is enough for the mob to die running on it, there is damage from the trap + sneak attack for every step
You are right! I forgot about that ring when making this video. Will give it a try to see if it works with Cave Fangs. I have already tried Arcane Trickster but sadly it doesn't seem like we can add Sneak Attack damage to it even with the level 10 ability.
@@smoklares9791 it's a relic from Crusade Mode, you can get it from a map crusade encounter, then do "The Fate of the Phylactery of Stevanius the Rotten" Crusade Decree, and choose the ring option, for a ring called Bane of Spirit.
@@cRPGBro In general to use sneak attack damage with a spell, it has to be 1) single target (usually), and 2) has to require an attack roll (Hellfire ray, scorching ray, acid arrow). AOEs and auto-hit stuff (magic missile) usually can't apply it. :)
@@Shadraen1 Indeed, but in that case I tried it with the Arcane Trickster last ability, that allows even spells like Magic Missile and Fireball to sneak attack, unfortunately it doesn't work with Cage Fangs for even bigger cheese!
Interesting combo. I recall Liquidplays/Arcane Agent showing a Mystic Theurge druid build from Kingmaker that used cave fangs. This is clearly at the next level.
Well can't prebuff with both mites and tites any more but you can still use tites. No clue why they left that one ss a free action instead of making both swifts
It works exactly per the description, though. Might be considered an oversight perhaps (maybe they didn't think on it working with Mark of Justice), but we are also taking about the game where you can deal more than 2 thousand damage in a single attack with Vital Strike or a thousand irresistible damage with Bolt of Justice in 1 round that also bypasses SR and anything the enemy might have. I'm not sure if Owlcat really cares so long as it's not a bug or a legit oversight considering all the other obscenely powerful stuff we have.
@@cRPGBro not sure if the spell is patched or I did something wrong, on my second playthrough it always says "Playful Darkness evades the effect of Caving Fangs" and no damage is taken unless its reflex saves fails edit: nvm, I reloaded the last save and casted evil eye saving throws on it (from Ember) and it worked out like a charm
@@cRPGBro i'm not complaining, the insane depth the pathfinder system has is probably the main reason why im on my 3rd playthrough right now, and I like dnd 5 but it still feels like it's missing so much stuff that this has
I had to peak at this in tabletop. Costs 150 gp, lasts a day per level, triggers like a trap, entangles in a square of difficult terrain. Not quite as... potent... I guess I could see it being useful if you were planning on beating up a wizard or something. Still for a 5th level spell... lol
How can you use that amount number of the spell? Your cammelia only has 2 copy of it in her spell book so isn't that means you can only use 2 times? And why is there a duration for the spell when it only deal damage the moment you cast it? I am sorry I don't really understand how skill/spell in the game work
Cave Fangs works in a special way. Once you cast it and choose Stalactites, you can keep using Stalactites as long as you have spell duration left, and each use spends 10 minutes of spell duration. Because of Enduring Spells Mythic ability, we get it to last 24 hours, so we have something like ~144 uses per cast, as each Stalactites use costs 10m.
@@cRPGBro I see. So basically you can beat everything with this as long as your cammelia reaches spell book level 5 and 1 mythic rank? Do smite even needed if you can casts it near infinite amount of time or just for faster kill?
@@KKKuma Smite from Mark of Justice is needed, because the spell by default deals low damage that will mostly be absorbed by all demons as they tend to have 10-20 DR that's only pierced by Good or Cold Iron, and the spell also allows a save for half damage. Smite lets you bypass the DR and also add paladin level to damage of the spell, it's a necessity.
Why is conjuration school so OP... Is that intentional? Creeping doom, cave fangs, Glitterdust, the pits... It makes evocation school looks like a joke LOL
Conjuration has always been one of the most powerful & versatile schools in tabletop. Very strong aoe effects, summons, damage, CC, utility... and the best part: usually, Conjuration spells completely bypass Spell Resistance! It was even better in Kingmaker, as most enemies would fall prey easily to either Grease or the dreaded Stinking Cloud. In Wrath, Grease is still very useful, but some winged demons are immune to prone, meanwhile they are all immune to poison, sadly! Would love an Ascendant Poison Mythic ability to bypass that!
@@cRPGBro I feel like Glitterdust doesn't get enough recognition... It actually blinds the targets, which makes them flat-footed for the duration and also they have high miss chance due to enforced concielement + the dust removes any concielement they might have. Also you could raise the DC of that spell quite a lot... Blindness is one of the most OP conditions in this game, together with fear in my opinion
@@zyfryth Glitterdust has always been one of my favorite Conjuration spells as well, the triad being Grease (1st), Glitterdust (2nd) and then Stinking Cloud (3rd). Conjuration is so good because it always has an useful spell on every level, and for the ones it doesn't, you can just Heighten the previous three! And yes, bypassing SR + AoE Blind against Will is super strong. In my Kingmaker run, my main character was actually a Thassilonian Conjurer for this reason.
It's by no means an exploit, the spell is functioning as intended. It's just a matter of mythic being extremely powerful and causing stupidity powerful interactions like this. Without enduring spells this spell isn't nearly as good, though still powerful. Anything involving mythic gets stupidity imbalanced even in pen and paper.
@@Unknown_Web_User I'm in agreement with you. It would be intellectually dishonest for anyone to look at this and say, "Oh yeah clearly the devs would be okay with this." I think by that jurisdiction it can be categorized as an exploit. The fact that this interaction is an oversight on the devs doesn't discount that anyone with at least five brain wrinkles could come to the conclusion that the Owlcat developers would not want to see people playing their game like this. Although I'm sure they'd see this and laugh at themselves for such an oversight. This is a funny interaction to see though, regardless.
I don't understand why people want to keep nerfing a PvE game. Maybe there's some pride in fighting a very specific and approved way in a single player game. If you think this is powerful, you should learn playing with merged spellbooks. Maybe that should be nerfed too....
@@SoulfurySaga All due respect, terrible argument for a few reasons. 1) We're discussing the functionality of something performing in a manner which is a clear oversight of the dev team. Normally this wouldn't be the case but the rules of the game aren't fully dev-inspired as they're based on a comparable TTRPG which players can refer to. 2) PvE games get nerfed all the time in our current world of "release now, patch later." You're starting to see this commonly in RPGs. The devs of the game Outward, for example, nerfed PvE interactions several times all the time while saying, "We didn't realize during development how this interaction might occur or how crafty our players might be. After we saw the data, we realized these mechanics were not how we intended the game to be played." Now look, I'm all about letting people wanting to play how they want to play. I know this cave fangs interaction works but I refuse to use it on my playthroughs. If someone else wants to use it, that's fine and their own business if that's the experience they want. But the argument still stands that this very clearly isn't what the devs intended for this game. Unfair difficulty is meant to be a .01% of people can achieve this type of challenge, not something that they would intend to be trivialized by going into turn-based mode and using infinite rounds of 3d8 damage until everything around you is dead.
Still works! I just found out Zippy magic from Azata Superpowers adds 2d6 + mythic rank in force damage, which almost doubles the damage. I just dropped the Umbral Dragon in act 4 on Core in a single round.
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Imagine ur a demon lord and 6 guys run up to you and suddenly hundreds of cave spikes start raining from the sky and impale you within a minute
too funny
DMs used to say "rocks fall, everyone dies"
This is the PCs getting access to this power...
I knew about the abuse of Cave Fang already but I didn't know Stalactites had no friendly damage. So it doesn't require selective metamagic? I had Camellia use Cave Fangs on autocast and I was taking friendly damage so guess I had "Stalagmites" on instead. Anyway this spell is beyond stupid. Compare this to Call Lightling Storm where each activation is a standard action which is just terrible. Both need to be changed to swift action imo.
Stalactictes mode doesn't have friendly fire and also even has a small aoe, but considering it requires Mark of Justice since everything in Wrath has physical DR, the aoe doesn't really make much of a difference.
This fight demonstrates how obscenely powerful the enemies are on Unfair. With enduring spells you get 144 cave fangs, each deals 3d6 damage plus the caster's CHA modifier, that is 436d6 plus 144 times CHA modifier damage, and that still only did about 2/3 of Deakari's HP. How are you supposed to beat him without cheese strats like this on Unfair?
Well, while it is true Unfair is well, unfair, starting from mid game the balance starts to shift heavily in the players favor, at that point we are the ones who become the true Unfair to the enemies. Buffing of course is an absolute must, together with party synergy. Some Mythics will certainly have an easier time than others such as merged Angel & Lich.
I have videos here 1 rounding Unfair bosses such as Deskari by just using melee with Trickster party for example:
ua-cam.com/video/x_rj_7uCUIc/v-deo.html
And Nocticula at Mythic Rank 7 so before level 20/Mythic 9:
ua-cam.com/video/X0zh_XVS7zs/v-deo.html
This is just an oversight because this spell is definitely not working as intended. I expect it to be patched soon. (It'll probably become a swift action)
I suppose it could be changed later, but so far it works per the description (which is different than the tabletop version so they adapted it).
They could indeed change it to a swift action, although that would change the spell from OP to downright useless.
I'm not really sure if Owlcat particularly cares about nerfs (unlike other devs) unless it's an oversight or bug.
My guess is if they ever reduce the power, they'll probably change the duration or per use cost to prevent so many stalactites being spammed in a single round, as opposed to just making it once/round (swift).
@@cRPGBro I probably would hard cap the uses to +1 every 4(?) the caster level so it can be used 5-8 times per round before recasting. which could deal about 180-300 damage per round, which is pretty strong for a level 5 spell.
Well kineticist has also unblockable large damage (deadly earth and cloud). All unblockable damage sources are superb.
Indeed, Kineticist also has very powerful no hit roll damage, both single target & aoe.
I tried it now - amount of free uses actually equals to your caster level, so it's not infinite. But still very powerful.
Well, it's not "infinite" but you have more than hundreds of uses with each cast + Greater Enduring Spells!
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not?
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not?
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not?
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not?
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not?
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not?
Camellia: I am helpful, am I not?
...
Well, she sure is when she's spamming cave machinegun 😁
Oh I was wondering how to make it work. I play a druid and I got the 24 hour amount but it kept doing zero damage on higher difficulties like hard and unfair. I didn't realize you needed Mark of Justice!
Yes! Unfortunately many demons have high phys DR, and Cave Fangs does physical damage.
I have not tried, but I believe you can also use the ring that turns all damage into force damage for 1 round, but you are still going to lose the bonus damage from Mark of Justice, ideally you should use both!
@@cRPGBro Oh thank you for your response. So I can use the ring instead of having a paladin as I really don't like Seelah, lol. Where can I get this ring? Thanks!
Edited: Okay I see the ring is from crusade mode which I turned off =(. Is there any other way other than using a Paladin to bypass DR?
That's some awesome extra sharp cheddar!
It sure is!
Nothing like machinegunning Demon Lords with a bunch of cave spikes!
It's even worse if you cast it from your Druid or Nature Oracle Azata with Zippy magic - 2d6 + mythic rank of damage per cast.
Yep, I really like finding ways of making Cave Machinegun even more OP 😁
Yes, you forgot something ... arcane trickster can add a sneak attack to this magic :) There will be at least + 12d6, one trap is enough for the mob to die running on it, there is damage from the trap + sneak attack for every step
Worth noting that there is a ring, a relic I think, that can turn your damage into force damage via standard action.
You are right! I forgot about that ring when making this video. Will give it a try to see if it works with Cave Fangs. I have already tried Arcane Trickster but sadly it doesn't seem like we can add Sneak Attack damage to it even with the level 10 ability.
Where i can get this ring and what name?
@@smoklares9791 it's a relic from Crusade Mode, you can get it from a map crusade encounter, then do "The Fate of the Phylactery of Stevanius the Rotten" Crusade Decree, and choose the ring option, for a ring called Bane of Spirit.
@@cRPGBro In general to use sneak attack damage with a spell, it has to be 1) single target (usually), and 2) has to require an attack roll (Hellfire ray, scorching ray, acid arrow). AOEs and auto-hit stuff (magic missile) usually can't apply it. :)
@@Shadraen1 Indeed, but in that case I tried it with the Arcane Trickster last ability, that allows even spells like Magic Missile and Fireball to sneak attack, unfortunately it doesn't work with Cage Fangs for even bigger cheese!
Interesting combo. I recall Liquidplays/Arcane Agent showing a Mystic Theurge druid build from Kingmaker that used cave fangs. This is clearly at the next level.
Well can't prebuff with both mites and tites any more but you can still use tites. No clue why they left that one ss a free action instead of making both swifts
Yep, kinda suprised me as well they nerfed one mode but let the other one remain OP just fine 😀
Deskari: I've got cookies!
Cave: Om Nom Nom!
When machinegunning one million spikey cave boys in the breadth of 5 seconds is enough to defeat even a Demon Lord!
killing a demon lord with overgrown rocks lol
You could say we were the Unfair ones all along.
The official description reads that casting is a standard action, not a free action. So the implementation here may just be wrong.
Casting it is standard indeed, but once you hover over the actual result (Stalagmite or Stalactite) they show as free actions.
RIP Cave Fangs - changed to swift action in the latest beta patch
Let's see how it will be at the final version of the patch!
That’s amazing! You have a new sub!
0:56 Ah, that explains it. I tried using it a couple times and nearly TPKd myself.
Yep, casting the friendly fire version can be dangerous.
Looks like more of an OP bug that was overlooked than an actual strongest spell in the game
It works exactly per the description, though.
Might be considered an oversight perhaps (maybe they didn't think on it working with Mark of Justice), but we are also taking about the game where you can deal more than 2 thousand damage in a single attack with Vital Strike or a thousand irresistible damage with Bolt of Justice in 1 round that also bypasses SR and anything the enemy might have.
I'm not sure if Owlcat really cares so long as it's not a bug or a legit oversight considering all the other obscenely powerful stuff we have.
So after being abused by this game for 100 hrs (no TRPG experience at all), the most OP spell is right under my nose this whole time
Yep, it does require proper setup and help from another class, but it is crazy how absurd Cave Fangs can be!
@@cRPGBro not sure if the spell is patched or I did something wrong, on my second playthrough it always says "Playful Darkness evades the effect of Caving Fangs" and no damage is taken unless its reflex saves fails
edit: nvm, I reloaded the last save and casted evil eye saving throws on it (from Ember) and it worked out like a charm
mfw your active buffs list looks like an excel spreadsheet
The joys of D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder!
@@cRPGBro i'm not complaining, the insane depth the pathfinder system has is probably the main reason why im on my 3rd playthrough right now, and I like dnd 5 but it still feels like it's missing so much stuff that this has
Cave machine gun
I had to peak at this in tabletop. Costs 150 gp, lasts a day per level, triggers like a trap, entangles in a square of difficult terrain. Not quite as... potent... I guess I could see it being useful if you were planning on beating up a wizard or something. Still for a 5th level spell... lol
It was even nerfed in the game, but only one of the modals... the other one is still at full power, hah! 😃
love ur vids
Thank you for the support!
Is this still a thing after so many patches?
Nope, Cave Fangs was nerfed to be a Swift Action instead of Free Action, thus highly limiting the damage potential.
Love the 🧀 😂
How can you use that amount number of the spell? Your cammelia only has 2 copy of it in her spell book so isn't that means you can only use 2 times? And why is there a duration for the spell when it only deal damage the moment you cast it? I am sorry I don't really understand how skill/spell in the game work
Cave Fangs works in a special way.
Once you cast it and choose Stalactites, you can keep using Stalactites as long as you have spell duration left, and each use spends 10 minutes of spell duration.
Because of Enduring Spells Mythic ability, we get it to last 24 hours, so we have something like ~144 uses per cast, as each Stalactites use costs 10m.
@@cRPGBro I see. So basically you can beat everything with this as long as your cammelia reaches spell book level 5 and 1 mythic rank? Do smite even needed if you can casts it near infinite amount of time or just for faster kill?
@@KKKuma Smite from Mark of Justice is needed, because the spell by default deals low damage that will mostly be absorbed by all demons as they tend to have 10-20 DR that's only pierced by Good or Cold Iron, and the spell also allows a save for half damage.
Smite lets you bypass the DR and also add paladin level to damage of the spell, it's a necessity.
@@cRPGBro I see, thank you
Why is conjuration school so OP... Is that intentional? Creeping doom, cave fangs, Glitterdust, the pits... It makes evocation school looks like a joke LOL
Conjuration has always been one of the most powerful & versatile schools in tabletop.
Very strong aoe effects, summons, damage, CC, utility... and the best part: usually, Conjuration spells completely bypass Spell Resistance!
It was even better in Kingmaker, as most enemies would fall prey easily to either Grease or the dreaded Stinking Cloud.
In Wrath, Grease is still very useful, but some winged demons are immune to prone, meanwhile they are all immune to poison, sadly!
Would love an Ascendant Poison Mythic ability to bypass that!
@@cRPGBro I feel like Glitterdust doesn't get enough recognition... It actually blinds the targets, which makes them flat-footed for the duration and also they have high miss chance due to enforced concielement + the dust removes any concielement they might have. Also you could raise the DC of that spell quite a lot... Blindness is one of the most OP conditions in this game, together with fear in my opinion
@@zyfryth Glitterdust has always been one of my favorite Conjuration spells as well, the triad being Grease (1st), Glitterdust (2nd) and then Stinking Cloud (3rd).
Conjuration is so good because it always has an useful spell on every level, and for the ones it doesn't, you can just Heighten the previous three!
And yes, bypassing SR + AoE Blind against Will is super strong.
In my Kingmaker run, my main character was actually a Thassilonian Conjurer for this reason.
Yeah …. that needs a patch
its not the strongest spell, it a damn exploit and should be patched
It's by no means an exploit, the spell is functioning as intended. It's just a matter of mythic being extremely powerful and causing stupidity powerful interactions like this. Without enduring spells this spell isn't nearly as good, though still powerful. Anything involving mythic gets stupidity imbalanced even in pen and paper.
@@zuloph Bro, i dont wanna be rude, but if spell not wasting action points, its exploit, unless its a 0 lvl spell (trick)
@@Unknown_Web_User I'm in agreement with you. It would be intellectually dishonest for anyone to look at this and say, "Oh yeah clearly the devs would be okay with this." I think by that jurisdiction it can be categorized as an exploit. The fact that this interaction is an oversight on the devs doesn't discount that anyone with at least five brain wrinkles could come to the conclusion that the Owlcat developers would not want to see people playing their game like this. Although I'm sure they'd see this and laugh at themselves for such an oversight. This is a funny interaction to see though, regardless.
I don't understand why people want to keep nerfing a PvE game. Maybe there's some pride in fighting a very specific and approved way in a single player game. If you think this is powerful, you should learn playing with merged spellbooks. Maybe that should be nerfed too....
@@SoulfurySaga All due respect, terrible argument for a few reasons. 1) We're discussing the functionality of something performing in a manner which is a clear oversight of the dev team. Normally this wouldn't be the case but the rules of the game aren't fully dev-inspired as they're based on a comparable TTRPG which players can refer to. 2) PvE games get nerfed all the time in our current world of "release now, patch later." You're starting to see this commonly in RPGs. The devs of the game Outward, for example, nerfed PvE interactions several times all the time while saying, "We didn't realize during development how this interaction might occur or how crafty our players might be. After we saw the data, we realized these mechanics were not how we intended the game to be played."
Now look, I'm all about letting people wanting to play how they want to play. I know this cave fangs interaction works but I refuse to use it on my playthroughs. If someone else wants to use it, that's fine and their own business if that's the experience they want. But the argument still stands that this very clearly isn't what the devs intended for this game. Unfair difficulty is meant to be a .01% of people can achieve this type of challenge, not something that they would intend to be trivialized by going into turn-based mode and using infinite rounds of 3d8 damage until everything around you is dead.
Does that still work? Or did they fix it? xD
Still works! I just found out Zippy magic from Azata Superpowers adds 2d6 + mythic rank in force damage, which almost doubles the damage. I just dropped the Umbral Dragon in act 4 on Core in a single round.
@@neiska25 Jebus Kripst. xD
🧀
Only the best, tastiest cheese!
I consider it a broken spell. Its not even close to what the spell is in normal pathfinder.
Yeah, you might indeed call it that, although it also requires a proper combo with Mark of Justice to truly become OP.
Lol this is so broken
Yep, and also don't forget you can turn the whole Cave Fang damage into Force (irresistible) from the Bane of Spirit Crusade Relic ring!