What If Spain Joined the Axis?
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- Опубліковано 14 бер 2024
- #possiblehistory #ph
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Carefree Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Hi.
What app are you using for the maps?
Love your content! Idea: What if spain joined the allies
Is this the first sponsor? Woo Hoo
no
I hope there's an alternate universe somewhere in which somebody makes a "What if Spain never joined the Axis?" video which ends in a Total Axis Powers victory
"The resources saved from the disastrous Spanish campaign would tilt the battle for Stalingrad in the Axis' favor. With Cacausus oil secured...."
@@possiblehistory "With Cacususes Oil secured, the Germans would be able to launch a new summer offensive into the USSR, capturing Moscow and causing the Soviet Union to begin exploding internally, culminating in the assassination of Joseph Stalin and the complete capitulation of the USSR. With the Soviet Union defeated, the Germans would be able to transport oil across Eurasia to aid their Japanese ally against the Americans."
Lmao
"what if Gibraltar never fell" by some UA-camr in an alternative universe
You know, I know there's an alternate universe where Spain never joined the axis, but what if in an alternative universe Spain did join the axis?
@@possiblehistorycan you make a video what if everything went perfect for Britain please?
I love that Hearts of Iron 4 has almost standardized what colors countries have on the map during this period, like it's interesting how we've agreed that yellow means republican spain while the brown are the falangists
You mean nationalists?
@@llama878*Anakin Squinting*
Well what's the alternative? Yellow Prussia?
@@llama878 the falangists are the same as the nationalists.
@@kcinrennat2606oh god no, vainilla vic2 should be considered a form of torture
The Churchill encirclement reddit post is comedy gold
True
I got an idea: "What if FDR died before the Yalta Conference?" and "What if FDR retired after his second term?"
Great ideas! Hope to sees these as videos eventually
IS THAT A TNO REFENRNFCE! KROAHJF(* WHOLSSEOM SABLIN WHOLSOEM SABILM
help
Is that a TNO REFERENC-
@@comicman3173 NO, SHUT UP AND GO AWAY!!!
@@comicman3173 NO! GO AWAY!!!
4:46 "Churchill was a big proponent of the southern strategy".
*Dixieland plays*
“Look at my double encirclement” Churchill in Hoi4 😂
Two leaders with one ball makes a worse axis 😔
1 + 1 = 2
Wait franco only had one ball?
@@mappingshaman5280 yeah I was wondering that to lol
@@mappingshaman5280 I was wondering that too but from a quick Google search yes
@@mappingshaman5280 true a consecuence of the war in Africa
You seemed to have completely ignored Portugal in this scenario. Although it's possible they could have stayed out, or otherwise been occupied, keeping Spain out of the war was a big reason why Portugal was not asked for aid in terms of military assistance per the Anglo-Portuguese Treaty.
You also said ultranationalism would be crushed in Europe with the defeat of Franco, again ignoring Portugal that would still be under Salazar for another thirty years.
Yeah, even great content creators like him have biases and historical errors. For a while I knew he believed that the Soviets could somehow win without lend lease lol
@@SubtotalStar850-uh8pg no biases, no historical mistakes. Only haters reported for toxicity and spam.
He ignored Portugal because Portugal is Americas vassal-It is NOTHING.
Just saying salazar’s a badass name ngl
@Rofflestomper The fact Hitler planned to invade the USSR a year later so 1942 had Spain joined the war shows me how much research this scenario got, so basically nothing his assumptions, basically he seams to think Spain joined and nothing changed yet the consequences for the British are devastating, 2 to 3× longer it takes for transportation of goods, at a time they are short on militery hardware.
Part of the agreement to join was the Canary Island and Morocco to have Germany bases for subs/ u-boats. Franco agreed in 1940, so why he suddenly changed his mind is nonsense, not to mention he literally asked Hitler to help defend them and build navy bun defence on many as part of the agreement.
Not to mention Spain resources, it produced 1.5 million to 2 million tones of iron ore each year of the war.
Wolfram, which was a vital resource for the war effort, would all totally be sold or given to Germany, not half to Germany and the other half to the UK.
Iron ore = more steel
Wolfram = more ammunition/ tungsten/ armour piercing ammunition.
Mercury = pharmaceutical and ammunition detonators, etc.
Spain also produces mercury, copper along with other resources that was traded to both Germany and the allies something that would have help the German's war effort yet apparently it didn't do anything because why no lol!
The whole point of Spain joining was to use trains to transport men and equipment and travel the short distance from Spain to Africa then build up infrastructure to the front with the British who wouldn't be able to hold on, not to mention the link up with Iran and Iraq who were pro axis and got invade by the British and Soviets to secure oil for the British and stop any oil getting sent to Germany.
There is a small mistake in the video, Spain would become a constitutional monarchy, since there were negotiations between the Spanish monarchists in exile and the allies so that when WW2 was won the monarchy would be restored
Idea: What if FDR lived to see his 4th term to completion?
What if he stayed president till today?
He could have made it if he didn't have Polio that's really what ended up killing him. He wasn't getting rest during the war and his disability made it much harder for his body to properly function. I have a similar disability and if I didn't sleep for 4 years it would probably kill me too and I'm only 20 lol
There's been like 2 (funni clock man) commets under here, all silenced
@@SubtotalStar850-uh8pg We don't know if he actually had Polio. He likely had Guillain-Barre syndrome. A different change could be him not being a chain-smoker. That severely hurt his health, just like for LBJ (although he stopped for 14 years from 1955-69).
@SubtotalStar850-uh8pg i have a rare form of rheumatoid arthritis at age 20 myself and while my health certainly isnt anything *as bad* as FDR's condition, if i go a week or two chronically without rest or enough sleeo my health and even my mobility is hindered compared to when im resting well and have time to take care of my health regarding diet, exercise etc. Who knows when FDR wouldve passed if he didnt have the stress of being president at such a time.
this morning i was having breakfast and suddenly thought "hmm, what if spain joined the axis?" and now i see this. it's definitely a message sent by the universe. or the youtube algorithm spying on my thoughts. these days, both options are equally possible...
Certainly a “bruh moment” indeed
That was bruhmoment5305
One issue: Spain actually did get some aid (about 1b) with the pact of Madrid in 1953. Sure it could still be higher in the alternate timeline, but it wasn’t as though Franco-Spain didn’t get any aid at all.
While that is true, the Marshall plan gave European countries much much more money (e.g. France 25 billion, UK 33 billion, Italy 15 billion, West Germany 14 billion, Greece 7 billion). And also, at least I think, the general greater integration into the European economy would leave Spain much better off in this world.
@@element5584 Honestly, Franco did pretty well in his reconstruction efforts in OTL, given the sheer amount of destruction and the fact that even before the war Spain was incredibly far behind the rest of Europe. It's possible that if a weaker government took over then Spain would become similar to real life Greece or Portugal.
S-tier thumbnail
I don't think a single rational person will say that spian could cause a axis victory
Read more...
More for fun than realism
@@FelidaeEnjoyer fair
You underestimate the amount of people that are willing to bypass realism for “muh Hitler wins”
@@somehistorynerd true
The literal point of alternate history is that there’s no “realistic” alternate history.
Changing one event can perfectly cause Lincoln to be the most racist scumbag of East Louisiana.
I don't think it would be quite that simple, though. Malta was an important base for the British that sunk most of the supplies sent to Axis forces in North Africa. With the Strait of Gibraltar closed, the Siege of Malta will be far worse as Allied convoys will face a far longer route to supply forces on the islands. Malta's defenses could have been degraded to the point that Operation Herkules, the Axis invasion of the islands, could have been launched. If Malta falls into Axis hands, they would have far more success against the Allies in Egypt. Will it help in the long run? Probably not.
Even if Rommel overruns Alexandria and Mussolini rides his white horse through Cairo, the Axis now have to defend against Allied forces in the Sinai and the Middle East beyond, and against forces further up the Nile, stretching their forces and resources even if they aren't being sunk by Allied subs from Malta. And once the US joins in the invasion of North Africa back in Morocco and Algeria, the bulk of Axis forces will be shifted back west and they'll get pushed back in Egypt as well. In the end, same outcome but taking a bit longer, more of Egypt wrecked in the fighting, and Malta and its residents not having the legend status they have in OTL and having to endure an Italian occupation before they either face another invasion by Allied forces, or Malta is bypassed by the invasion of Italy and starved into submission until Mussolini's fall and the forces on Malta surrender.
idk if italy would be fast enough into egypt the british may agree on a peace of some sort, after all imagine by 1941 seeing your empire lose all the mediterranean, its not like bcs churchill did a good speech that the morale of the empire wouldnt be influenced by such a defeat
And if the situation in north Africa is better italy might stay longer in the war, and also with Axis Gibraltar control conquering Algeria is more difficult. In my opinion torch makes no sense at this point. They would simply go for Spain directly. Of course the Axis, would lose in Spain eventually, but it all slows down the war
Don't forget the link up with pro axis Iran and Iraq and the oil it produced, the British and Soviets didn't just invade them for no reason.
An Englishman wrote this
@@BellUH-1IroquoisBellThey've lost the Channel Islands, Malaya, Borneo, Singapore, western Egypt and two of their new battleships by 1941. I doubt Malta would contribute much to British morale. Perhaps the idea of even Gibraltar falling might shake some British folk, but I would expect British people to care about Britain more than anything else. Without Sealion, a Churchill led UK isn't surrendering
"What If Spain Joined the Axis?" 3rd Spanish Republic
The assumption that the loss of Gibraltar would not impact the North Africa campaign is fundamental to this alternate history, and is completely ludicrous. Without Gibraltar, Malta or Suez, there is no possible way that the allies could supply or sustain a beachhead in North Africa, nor in Spain. It would be 1945 before the USA would have enough carriers to even attempt to provide air cover for all of the supplies that would need to go into maintaining a bridgehead, let alone supply an offensive operation by dozens of divisions.
Thank you, I was looking for a comment regarding the impact of no Gibraltar that is butterflied away in the video. It would have made Operation Torch untenable in 1942. Also, if no British shipping can enter the Med safely, then Malta is less valuable to hold if the Axis attempted an invasion or launched concerted air attacks to shut it down operationally. The British would likely abandon it after demolishing the naval and air infrastructure long before the Allies gained the upper hand in North Africa. Also, given the obvious disparity in the quality of the Spanish armed forces vs their German and Italian counterparts, it seems inexplicable for Franco to refuse the stationing of at least the air and naval forces of Germany and Italy in Morocco, especially given the known amphibious capabilities of the Allies. This video went nowhere for me after these two issues were butterflied away.
@@ppalchinsky8301 Absolutely. If Spain joins, Gibraltar is gone. If Gibraltar is gone, Malta is gone AND Torch is impossible. Also, if Malta is gone, then Suez becomes untenable. Without Suez, the infrastructure of the region will not support any major land force supplied through the Gulf of Oman. The Axis south and southeast flanks would be absolutely secure.
At hte end of 1942 The allies could have landed in the A) Canary Islands /Dakar - then Western Sahara (EL Aioun and Bojador harbours) - Casa Blanca and Tangier. B) Ethiopia - Egypt /Yemen /Arabia and then ... D) 1943 South Spain and Portugal , Get to Tunissia and Sicily , Sardinia , Corsica and Southn of France
Even if Spain took Gibraltar, the Axis still loses. It's estimated that if Spain joined the war they would've run out of resources in 4 months at most. Spain would become another Italy constantly relying on Germany for aid, further stretching German troops and supplies
@@oliversherman2414 Yes but Germany could support Spain indefinitely fighting the British and not invading the USSR, the plan was to take Egypt who grain and oil production was sufficient to cover Spain's demands, then to link up with Iran and Iraq who were pro axis and got invade due to that and there large amount of oil for the British and to stop any getting sent to Germany.
Hitler literally planed to delay operation Barbarossa by a year to secure the Mediterranean and oil and a potential new front against the USSR later on.
The oil Iran and Iraq produced at the time would have solved the German's oil problems and the axis as a whole in Europe.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention that the Axis might see increased success in North Africa as British shipping in the Mediterranean would be so much harder with the strait of Gibraltar cut off. The British might even abandon Malta to Italy. While I still don’t think they’d be able to take Suez, they might contest the Nile Delta. With the entry of the US, the African Front is doomed, but the Axis might hold out for longer. Italy may be more effective as the Allies would be also dealing with Spain, so they may not surrender as quickly, with Mussolini holding out until late 1943 early 1944. Because of this, Germany would not have to bail out and take over Italy like they did in our timeline until much later, the Allies also may not advance as far into Italy and so it would be less of a concern. In fact, the diversion of German troops to the Balkans and Italy was one of the key reasons for the Soviet victory in the Battle of Kursk. The Soviet advance into Eastern Europe may be a lot slower. But yeah by 1944 the German collapse outlined in the video would happen, with 1945 going basically the same as it did in our timeline, maybe with Albania falling into western influence rather than Soviet.
The Soviet victory in Kursk is pretty much guaranteed lol. You're talking about 1944 Germany as they were running out of gas - even if they had some coming from Iraq (if Syria wasn't taken by the allies). With how defended the Kursk salient was, they'd just lose the extra few divisions they'd have without Mussolini's surrender. German hold on Eastern Ukraine would collapse, and the Eastern Front is probably delayed by just a couple of days.
Who knew being an Axis power could be a good thing for the people.
wdym?
The arguement is the extra destruction is better because of the extra help after the war.
The issue i have with this video is operation torch. Without access to the west mediterran the operation would have been impossible. So the war would have dragged on for longer but with the same end results.
Great video! I also think that maybe around near/just before such an Allied invasion of Spain, I do think the British would invoke slightly more Portuguese assistance from their longstanding treaty & alliance as Spain would be the axis - I don't think the Portuguese would fully join or allow Allied armies to use Portugal as a front, but instead of just allowing a few airbases in their Atlantic islands, I do think they could lease more major ports, airbases, and facilities to Allied access, and be incredibly more lenient on any fleeing Jews or Spanish Anti-Francoists, increased privileges for Allied spies & downed planes or sunk seaman and overall more socio-political cooperation. Even if Portugal wouldn't really accept to this, I do Salazar would eventually realize (sort of like Franco OTL) that cooperation with the Allies was not only necessary to his continued government but probably way more profitable, stable, and internationally respected
Great work as always!
Another interesting cool video! Great job!
I would also think that the problem with Western Sahara and Morocco would be fixed if France annexed Spanish Sahara into French Morocco, which I would asume they would.
There also probably wouldn't be tension between Morocco & Spain, as Ceuta & Melilla would also probably go to Morocco. Maybe even the Canaries as well.
@@masonsmith3452 The Canaries would probobly stay with Spain, considering they had been part of spain for around 600 years at that point...
@@masonsmith3452 why?
@@SimonDman More or less the same with Ceuta and Melilla
@@alvaro701 Yeah but those are connected to the African continent
Göring put forth the 'south strategy' in June 1940. If Gibraltar were to be closed, that concept could become a reality. I'm curious if the Afrika Korps arrived in August 1940 and proceeded 600 miles further east than it did historically, thus closing the Suez Canal. This would pave the way for Rommel's advance towards Damascus, Baghdad, and Basra, driven by the pursuit of oil.
The question then arises: in such a scenario, would Hitler still have launched Barbarossa? And if not, how long could the German Empire have held out against the formidable American forces from 1943 onwards?
There's the plan, and there's what would realistically happen. I mean, if we do some suspend disbelief and say that they were able to just knock the British out of Egypt, it's a bottleneck where the British could definitely keep the Axis from advancing until the Americans take Morocco.
@@milesperhour9256 I don't believe that was possible in August-September 1940. The scant British armored forces had been destroyed at Dunkirk. It wasn't until December 1940 that they reappeared in Egypt, with 40,000 men and a few invaluable Matilda II tanks. Rommel had no reason to venture into the Nile Delta; he could turn south and find a crossing point somewhere around Cairo. The delta itself allows for the formation of a credible defensive line with the Italians, shielded from flanking maneuvers by German tanks. That was his usual tactic. Then he could turn north towards Port Said. Done.
I was waiting for this
Suggestion: What if there was no war of austrian succession? Charles Vi son leopold survives
What if Bohemia annexed Austria?
W video, always wondered about this scenario
Can we all agree that this video is 10 minutes of roasting Spain.
This video massively underrates the value of Gibraltar. Without Gibraltar Egypt would have fallen in 1941 and the whole British support for Greece, Crete and Malta in 1940 would have been impossible.
The thing is Franco’s Spain was in such a rickety position a British landing would probably have caused the complete collapse of the country. Spain was economically devastated, undergoing a severe famine, and much if not most of the population was openly hostile to the regime. There was ongoing insurgency in the countryside which irl lasted into the 1950s. And that’s not even counting the abysmal state of the Spanish Army.
So even if Gibraltar had fallen, I don’t think it would have been that hard to get back.
@@TonyGModesto Hitler wouldve for sure forced Wehrmacht troops to participate in the garrison of Malta, so it wouldnt be easy per se, mightve actually ended up like Bordeaux or other Nazi strongpoints in France. No reason to take a city if you can just cut it off, and wait for the garrison to surrender
Doubt.
@@funnymustacheman That's assuming Egypt would even fall. And that's assuming Spain is even competent enough to capture and hold Gibraltar.
Lol, Not Spain would have taken Gibraltar but Germany of course.@@42carlos
Your videos are awesome 🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤
Very nice video, I loved it.
I'd like to add a few things too though.
First, instead of Morocco having to fight the Sahrawi Arab Republic for decades in order to conquer Western Sahara, Morocco would've already gotten Western Sahara from WW2 and thus would enjoy more peace.
Secondly, Ceuta and Melilla probably are given away to Morocco too, making sure that they wouldn't suffer from the modern-day migrant crisis like they do in our timeline and thus would never be walled to prevent immigration since probably people would tend to go away from Ceuta and Melilla rathern than towards them.
Lastly, Spanish Guinea is so small that it'd be annexed into French Equatorial Africa, and later, Gabon. On one hand, this might be better for them since they wouldn't have to fall under the psycothic dictatorships they've been put under in our own timeline by both Franco and the first president/dictator of Equatorial Guinea, but on the other hand the fact that people in former Spanish Guinea,who speak Spanish, are now under the Francophone country of Gabon might lead to some revolts or even the creation of a breakaway republic, kind of like with Cameroon and the Anglophone territories within it.
Ceuta and Melilla where considered part of Spain proper, so they where not integrated into the Riffian protectorate, so in this timeline they may or may not remain in Spanish hands.
Another thing is the restoration of the Free City of Tanger, which was occupied by Spanish troops after the fall of France, they will integrate into Morroco when decolonization happens.
Cool to see a new sponsor
Spain and italy could do more for Germany by staying neutral. They could trade with Germany and avoid the blockade. Most of these what-ifs are just Germany getting a few more seconds above water before drowning
Great video!
Make a video about Turkey joining Allies/Axis.
Allies: Makes countering Barbarossa easier
Axis: They either get Overrun by the Brits after El Alamein, get bulldozed by the USSR, or get a Finland esque seperate peace.
Rewriting history and another channel already did that not too long ago
@@minestar2247 wdym
I found the best thumbnail on UA-cam
Thank you.
I am once again asking for a "What if everything went perfect for Bohemia" video
Spaniard here!
First of all, I think It's very clear that Spain could have been a horrible ally, mostly because the sources that kept the population alive came from UK in those years, so even allow military acces to the Axis would be a major problem, because, practically, all resources would stop arriving to Spain.
That's why the Operation "Félix" (The plan of the Axis occupation of Gibraltar in 1941) never succeded. Furthermore, if Spain had chosen to enter the war, moreover Gibraltar, a war against Portugal could have happened. I know all the subject of Salazar and Franco's relation was good (Even more than the Franco's relation with Hitler), but if we consider the polarization of this alternative timeline, Portugal would be a nice port and a useful headquarter for the USA army if Salazar felt threatened enough; I think It's a little exaggerated imagine this scenario, but is a possibility wich we can't take down.
Anyways, in or out, Spain was an absolute dissaster that years (and decades too), so any risky politic decision could be the self destruction (even more) of the country.
- Ahora que Franco ha ganado la guerra
+ RUMBALARUMBALARUM
Bro completely forgot about Portugal. It was instrumental in keeping Spain out of the war, and the Allies were content with portuguese neutrality while this stood up. If it didn't, it's likely that the British would force Salazar's hand with the Luso-English alliance of 1386 (!), or at the very least, get an much more cooperative portuguese government earlier in the war. The Battle of the Atlantic would be over earlier with the Azores and Madeira, you mentioned the tungsten, although not much would change.
I'd be curious to see what happens next. You said that there were no more bastions of totalitarianism, but there is one, Portugal! Maybe the allies would force Portugal to democraticise, or maybe they would respect Salazar due to his help. Don't know
One thing that you forget is that if Gibraltar fall probably Malta also fall, and that will cause that the axis had a better logistic and maybe with that the Rommel ofensive against Egypt will be succesfull
Sorry if something of what I said dosn't undestand, I'm istill learning english
i really like how focused this video is on spain (i know you are reading this algorithm)
I think you should try to end all Alternative ww2 scenarios first And THEN ww1 or something (we would like that:3)
Franco knew how to play the game
That was a 10/10 double encirclement
I thought this would be a set-up for/turn into just a video explaining the lore behind the HOI IV mod. that is TNO.
Speaking of TNO, have you ever considered reviewing some Hoi IV alternate history mods to see how realistic they might be?
I feel like you'd largely forgotten about Portugal. Britain considered their wartime neutrality important for keeping Spain neutral, there were real fears that bringing Portugal into the Allies would scare Spain into the Axis. With Spain already in the Axis, there's no further reason to keep Portugal on a leash. I reckon they'd have joined during the southern thrust strategy as this timing carries the least risk of full mainland occupation and the best chance of close British support.
Very nice video, did you get a new mic? sounds good
Cool, I wanted to buy a Sleeping Mask for a long time. I bought it❤
Hey bro, are your channel is monetized? Perfect video!
Yo my boy has finally got himself sponsors :)
I feel like you ignored Portugal which is a major mistake.
Wouldn't the UK get Portugal's help for the invasion of Spain? They were allied. From what I've heard the main reason Portugal wasn't asked to join WW2 was that it may have caused Spain to join. Spain already joined. I think a Spain in the Axis would likely try to do a pre-emptive strike on Portugal because that's a massive threat of the Allies invading through Portugal. Which would be a really big change if the Allies try to defend it. If Spain tried to do it on their own then the Allies could definitely defend Portugal, and push back into Spain until Germany diverts forces to it. Sounds interesting.
If Spain doesn't attack Portugal then that just makes the Allied invasion of Spain a lot easier than even you said it would be.
Can you do What if everything went perfect for italy next?
Great video idea have you done what if Spain joined the central powers ?
When is the new viewer poll video coming out????
LOL at HOI Churchill posting screenshot of his grand encirclement...
Day 15 Asking for "What if Everything Went Perfect for Romania"
What if Switzerland had a civil war during WW1?
Do a fuhrerredux-style video on what if Spain didn’t join
In my view, Franco would be too smart to do that. Good video!
5:16, what music is playing there?
pov: playing nationalist spain in hoi4
you should do a alt history video about right now using one of your alts as a jumping off point
As a Spaniard and a fan of alternative history, I highly doubt such a scenario.
If Hitler accepted Franco's initial demands (not only territorial as Gibraltar, French Morocco and French Cameroon, but also economic, since at that time Spain required wheat and oil, supplies coming mainly from the other side of the Atlantic), the war would begin to focus on the Iberian Peninsula from that moment on.
On the one hand, the situation in Gibraltar would be unsustainable (the British garrison could take shelter in the tunnels of the Rock for months, but the port and airport are perfect targets for any artillery attack), probably causing the later fall of Malta due to the lack of supplies before the Americans arrived in North African theater (which could cause Rommel to reach the Nile and the Suez Canal before Montgomery could stop him).
On the other hand, the British always had a plan prepared for the eventual Spanish entry into the Axis: the invasion of the Canary Islands, where they would place a puppet government (which could be a monarchical one in the name of Infante Juan, heir of the exiled Alfonso XIII; or the exiled government of the Second Spanish Republic, led by the Canarian pro-Soviet socialist Juan Negrin, last prime minister of the defeated republic in 1939). Most experts declare that a successful invasion of the archipelago would require a week or 10 days, so even before Spain officially entered the war, the Germans could have landed enough troops and material to make that landing impossible (in fact, Operation Felix planned an important landing of German troops and material in the Canary Islands before Spain announced its entry into the war with the planned attack on Gibraltar).
There would be serious doubts about the outcome of the British landing (many would not want to live under Franco's dictatorship, but many more did not want to live again under Republican chaos and PSOE tyranny, since the PSOE (the Spanish socialist party) of that time had Bolshevik behavior and was clearly pro-Soviet, discarding any internal element that today we would consider social democratic, true reason why Great Britain and France committed themselves to the Committee of Non-Intervention during the Spanish Civil War), but, personally, the most possible scenario in my opinion is that the British failed thanks to the timely arrival of the Germans, especially their artillery and their submarines, which would make Churchill and his cabinet see that they urgently needed the entry of the Americans in the war, something that will only happen after Pearl Harbor, causing the next Operation Torch to focus on an Anglo-American landing on the Canary Islands.
However, in any case, the British would be forced to occupy the Portuguese archipelagos in the Atlantic (Azores, Madeira and Cape Verde) to ensure their maritime traffic in that area, which would cause a crossroads for the corporatist dictatorship of Salazar that governed Portugal.
On the one hand, the Salazar government would protest the occupation of its Atlantic archipelagos by its oldest ally, but on the other, it would know that it did not have enough navy to do anything against the British and had to focus on the fact that the Germans would already have troops in Spain in the event of any eventuality with neutral Portugal. Most likely, the Germans considered the Portuguese response to that British attack as ambiguous and decided to invade together with Spanish troops to control the entire Iberian Peninsula. To convince Franco, he would be convinced that in the medium term, Hitler would support the realization of an Iberian Anschluss where Spain would annex Portugal and all its colonies after the Axis victory.
As for the danger of pissing off Vichy France, Hitler could try to compensate them with the promise of some British colonies to be given to them after the end of the war. They would also remember how the British recently treated the French, with their treacherous attack on Mers-el-Kebir a few days after the signing of the armistice with Germany, which caused among many French an outrageous response similar to that which the American people had after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Meanwhile, Spain's entry into the war would cause greater emphasis on the Atlantic Wall that would extend to Dakar, the capital of French West Africa under Vichy control that already resisted an Allied landing in September 1940. Furthermore, it is very likely that the war involved the active participation of an industrial company with a long history of war machine in the Axis war effort: the Spanish Hispano-Suiza, with factories in Spain and France and a great history in the manufacture of cars, trucks , planes, tanks and cannons. In fact, its president at that time was a personal friend of Franco and was the first mayor of Barcelona after the victorious entry of Franco's troops at the beginning of 1939 into the Spanish Civil War (he was mayor until 1945).
On the other hand, if Spain entered the war, the Germans would have made "recommendations" so that the Spanish economy would be more efficient for the war effort and not only focus on the extraction of tungsten necessary for German armor. It is also very possible that Spain contributes something more on the Eastern Front (at least one army corps, although if Spain saw little action at first, it is possible that many young Spaniards would have wanted to participate as volunteers in the anti-communist crusade that began with Operation Barbarossa).
Interesting how you abandoned the wheat and oil requirements as if these weren't fulfilled it's likely Spain would begin to starve especially seeing how much of their wheat was imported form the US and UK.
@@julienvalley28Germany could cover them not to mention the requirements would have been less later on especially for grain as local production increased, and the plan was to take Egypt who grain and oil production would cover Spain needs totally and still have large amount spare, with that Spain would have had more oil then Italy at least in out time line the plan was to link up with Iran and Iraq who oil production would have covered the Germany's and the Axis in Europe short fall and still had tens of thousands of barrels spare.
@felippe_818 Hitler was furious with Franco due to his demands of oil and grain.
You're more than welcome to research it. They meet from the top of my head 3 times, and government officials at least 4 other times every time they meet Spain/ Franco ask for more oil and more grain considerably more, Hitler planed for spain to join in January/ February 1941, Hitler became frustrated because they said yes basically then Spain wouldn't join then next time they meet he would ask for more and not give an answer for when he would join.
I have the numbers of grain and oil if you would like, to give you some perspective.
Idk how bankrupt they were.
I've seen many claims Germany was in the late 1930s and had to go to war, yet it was 40 billion Reich marks in dept to itself but the Germans economy at the time was 110 billion Reich marks.
I am more than happy for you to supply any information on the economy of Spain as for that I'm not sure but I'm positive it was that bad.
@felippe_818 Territory was of little concern. As I said, Hitler was furious with Franco as he kept asking for more grain and oil considerably more.
They had what 3 meeting about it in person, and each time Franco asked for more the first two times from memory, Hitler agreed, but Franco made no promises, so Hitler didn't deliver the goods.
Hitler had planned for Franco to join the war in January/ February 1941 when it became clear he wasn't Hitler moved on with oparation Barbarossa.
Was Spain really bankrupt, or is that just an over the top assumption that keeps happening with most ww2 stances.
For example, people say that about Germany in what 38/ 1939 yet what was it 40 billion Reich marks in dept to itself yet it's economy at the time was 110 billion and growing even though it was claimed to be starting to stagnate yet no evidence of that exsist....
@felippe_818 September 1940 Spain asked for.
1. Germany must deliver 400,000 to 700,000 tons of grain to be delivered in full before it could join the war.
2. Germany is to deliver all the fuel or 600,000 tons / almost 4.4 million barrels.
However, only 400,000 tons of that was gasoline or about 3 million barrels. The rest was fuel oil.
3. All the military equipment was to be delivered that was promised.
Along with other demands.
So, in short
Originally, Franco told Mussolini that after the fall of France, he would join the war for 100,000 tons of grain, he later changed that to 600,000 tons and later 1,300,000 tons and in 1941 he changed it to over 2,400,000 tons Hitler was furious yelling after there meeting.
Fuel requirements went from 600,000 tons to almost 900,000 tons.
For some context, France and Germany each were producing about 3 million tonnes of bread grain a year and a similar number of grain for feed for live stock about 4 million each.
Spain local production was about 1.6 million tonnes and over 2 million in 1941, again in 1943 and agian in 1945.
1:15
I SWEAR TO GOD I WAS ABOUT TO EXPLODE
Ok, but what if turkey Joined the axis in ww2?
you know those vote videos what if "war ended" would be intresting if you did something difrent meybe an alt hist scenario like a german victory in either of the world wars? (just a suggestion)
I hate that i thought the same before the Hoi4 reddit post appeared, and still I laughed
PLEASE make an everything perfect for denmark. How much could they realistically hold on to
There’s a timeline on the alternate history forum called España No Ha Muerto that goes along with this purpose (excluding the colonial gains from Vichy France)
Good video, though the exile government and many of the parties in the popular front were more close to the russians diplomatically than to the western allies. It would be interesting to explore a scenario where the spanish republic after the war were to join the warsaw pact instead of the american sphere of influence, creating a gap in the iron curtain.
Did you forget about the Every Empires series?
Ok, interesting video, but how does this affect the creation of bernd das brot?
Can I suggest that you use a lighter hue of blue for the allies, say, something closer the hue 195 or 210? It's just that the current hue is really dark, and difficult to make out from the axis
Yo Possible History Please Do What If Stalin Lived Longer!
He did this as part of the scenario “what if the Soviet Union won the Cold War.”
how do you make your maps
Can you people do alternate history video about, what if Greece made the decision to join the central powers?
Please do what if everything went perfect for italy
ive always wondered for scenarios like this, whats the chance the basque and/or catalans get independence after the war?
I think Spain joining can only benefit the Axis if other “what if” scenarios are employed. Some that come to mind would be, what if the Germans had successfully captured the French Fleet, and/or what if Taranto went differently for the Italians? If the Naval forces of the Axis can be spared/enhanced, and Spain add its ships plus the capture of Gibraltar, could we then see the fall of Malta and Crete? What does that do to the North Africa campaign? Can a combined German/French, Italian and Spanish Fleet challenge the RN for superiority in the channel? What would losing Gibraltar, Malta, Crete and maybe even Egypt with a pending invasion of the home islands do for British morale? Could we see an armistice in the West? I agree that Spain just joining the Axis and everything else proceeding as before just stretches the Germans out and hastens defeat, but I think in concert with other changes and it could make for an interesting scenario.
Now what if spain manged to conquer china
So this is the world where maps show data for area of Western Saharan Arab Republic
If Spain joined the axis it would be like a 30 years war but short and non-religious
Is it possible to collaborate on another alternate post-world war 1 and world war 2 scenario, specifically involving Hungary?
i like that us hoi4 players have completely influenced country colours for this time
What if Norway found oil??
(Please do a what if everything went perfect for Norway scenario)
everthing went already perfect for norway
its a incredible rich and democratic country, for decades
Theres oil in svalbard
This makes an interesting scenario for “What if Italy never joined the axis”
thank god that we voted on this thumbnail
Given how obsessed Hitler was about 'not one step back', there's no way he would have pulled forces back from Spain until it was already too late.
scenario idea: what if Genoa didnt sell Corsica to France and Napoleon became an Italian General instead
Anybody know the song name at the beginning?
The axis made a hoi4 encirclement 😂
The biggest benefit I see to Spain joining the war is the the Axis might be able to starve Malta out. Costal guns on both sides of the Strait of Gibraltar will effectively shut down British supplies through there, meaning there could be up to a month-long delay in replacement planes and other supplies.
While hurting for the allies, Britain still has Egypt and the allies would retake it before any action in Italy commences.
Take a shot for every time someone has done this trope
Let me simplify this video. If Spain did join the war, the axis would lose faster.
Is "Highlighted comment" a good thing?
video idea: what if spain joining the central power in ww1 I mean they are both monarches
PH you mostly do like world war II or world war I or like 18th century alternate histories but I have a few ideas for more modern ones and some older alternate history ideas what if Boris Yeltsin Lost Black October what if the LA riots turned into a full-on revolt what if the UK elected a swedish king I don't remember when but I remember they elected a king at one point I forgot when this was though also at that same time what if they elected a Dutch queen or king also another one is what if the Franco Prussian war ended in a stalemate also what if the West actually supported the Hungarian uprising with weapons
Suggestion alt history: what if the German empire survived in Africa after ww1 essentially a empire on exile.