I would LOVE an episode about Star Frontiers, which was the second RPG I played after B/X D&D. I also played TSRs Conan RPG which I thought was interesting in terms of character creation and "skill" based system instead of straight up "levelling". I'd love to see a video about that too! Keep going!
I'm glad that a lot of old stuff like this is available for PDF/POD for folks who either weren't around or who had to get rid of their copies back in the day. Cheers!
Yes! I think it was a year after the release of Star Frontiers that the line was "re-branded" as Star Frontiers "Alpha Dawn" (the base game, pretty much identical to the one shown in my video) and "Knight Hawks" which were the starship rules. So, they did add those rules eventually.
Another great video!!! Your information is second to none. I honestly think you should look into the first board games put out by TSR. That would be very interesting to me. I got Outdoor Survival recently, it’s not a TSR game, that game was actually mentioned in the 1st D&D printing for the map, but I had Dungeon! And The Awful Green Things from Outer Space, both TSR board games. Love your channel
Thank you so much! I really appreciate your support. And I can add the TSR board games to my list of potential future topics. That's really cool that you have a copy of Outdoor Survival!
Agree about winning conditions. When I teach new players about TTRPGs I tell them that there's no winner, the goal is to tell a good story. But that's the way they're usually played. As long as you're making decisions as your character would instead of how you would, it's role playing. I have a TTRPG one shot inspired by the game Clue, there's definitely ways to win that one.
The definitions get very muddy. I was thinking of something like Clue as well! You're definitely a "character" but I think the difference in that case is that the decisions you make to "play your character" have limited impact on the outcome. But it's only a few steps removed from role-playing, I think.
@@daddyrolleda1 Sure the board game isn't role playing. But the TTRPG I wrote does let you customize and the RP impacts it. It's a bit of a cross between, like a RP/board game
I used to own and play a copy of Star Probe. Silly little matrix game, but showed the open world potential of matrix tables to table top gaming. If anything, I think it would be a model for PC 4x games that have a touch of role playing, kind of like PC BBS games from the 1980s and 1990s when the internet was still a physically limited by data transfer speeds.
Man, this episode gave me a nostalgia blast, but from a completely unexpected source. You talking about "Just Say 50" in the bonus content made me think of all the other "Just Say..." CD compilations from Sire I used to collect in the 80s and 90s. Time to break out all those Depeche Mode remixes!
I found the interview with Gygax quite telling. By 1980 I was fed up with GG and his whole approach to RPGs. I found the Dungeon Master's Guide was full of (borderline control freak) asides about how to manage and control the players. I always found his approach too adversarial, which ultimately led me away from D&D in 1981 (I used Rolemaster for years). I have only just realized that I felt Gygax style D&D was like a SAW movie; led by a diabolical adversary laying out life-threatening traps and torturous puzzles. I always thought that it was just his wargamer background, but the idea that he saw the games as fundamentally more about solving challenges than story telling really brings the things I disliked about his rules into a new light. I had a whole Boot Hill campaign built around the outlaw trail (Four Corners, to Brown's Park, to the Arches). However, we mostly played one shots, like individual western movies. The main scenario cue was "100 years Ago Today," which in the late 1970s worked really well. Thanks again Martin, I really love your delivery and content.
As I've gotten older, I've come to quite like things like resource management and such that were big parts of the early game but which I discounted at the time. That said, there was a very early adversarial relationship between DM and Players that I was never quite fond of and to which I think you're referring in your comment. So, I agree with you. I love your SAW analogy! (Even though I've never seen any of the movies - I get the gist). After I moved, I discovered a new group of gaming friends who player Rolemaster in their youth because their moms wouldn't let them play D&D due to the supposed "satanic" overtones. They had no problem with Rolemaster, though, which I find hilarious. They always called it "Chartmaster." I remember the ads for the game in every single Dragon magazine! Thank you so much for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it.
@@daddyrolleda1RM was probably the best set of RPG ever created, says I; but the game was so complex and chart-bound none of my friends would play. The critical and fumble charts were so funny to skim over though; in one ludicrously bizarre moment we killed a charging horseman with the same archery critical roll: both his kidneys were shot out of his body. 😂 The watered down MERP was easier to cope with, and in ways more fun. With some of the best designed (but perhaps not the easiest to read) adventure books and scenarios out there.
I've not played it since the 1980's! So, nostalgia is definitely a factor for me. What specifically did you think didn't hold up? Thanks for watching and commenting!
There can be arguments that Empire of the Petal Throne (Tekumel) is a science fiction RPG game. But yeah... if you don't really consider Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha as science fiction, you will surely discount Tekumel, as well.
Yeah, I discuss the limited science-fiction elements in Empire of the Petal Throne in my video on that game (one of my first videos!) but that game isn't *played* as a science-fiction game. The setting is perhaps science-fiction but extrapolated to the point that it becomes fantasy again with spells and such. Thanks as always for watching and commenting!
Arneson's El Paucho character was in Duane Jenkin's Brownstone game in 1971 - this had nothing to do with Boot Hill other than possibly inspiring it. I don't know one way or the other if Arneson ever played Boot Hill, except to say he was never involved in any campaigns. Easy slip up to make Martin.
Thanks - someone else pointed this out, too. As you mentioned, it was a slip-up as I knew El Paucho was from Brownstone but I also for some reason had in the back of my mind that he'd played the same character in Boot Hill. But that could just be my mind playing tricks on me.
Thank you so much for sticking all the way through! Glad you enjoyed it! So much great music on this collection and it's really fun to listen to it in order and hear how the music was changing over the years. Cheers!
@40:26 It seems Gary agrees with my previous comment. RPing is about problem solving and exploration. Whether you use sword, spells, prayers, or stealth - the role you play - it's about a challenge. It isn't primarily a thespian activity. Play acting a personality (with voices) can and often does add to the gaming experience, but it isn't what was intended.
They are definitely different styles, and as you mention, adding them together often creates the best results. From what I've been told from folks who knew Dave Arneson, he was a little less focused on wanting to codify a specific set of rules but leave it more open, much more in line with a Braunstein type game. But yes, based on what Gary wrote, at least at the time, he was more focused on overcoming challenges than playing a role. The mixture of the two is what, I think, has given the game such legs throughout the decades.
I love the explanation and tie in of Star Probe to Gamma World and how to resolve character interaction and unknown or novel technology. I believe Mutant Crawl Classics has a similar mechanic.
I've not played Mutant Crawl Classics but I like a lot of what I've seen in the book, and a flowchart for resolving characters interacting with unknown technology seems like a perfect fit for that game!
Thanks. Interesting history of Star Probe and Star Empires. Just one note but I don't think Star Probe had a sheet of die cut counters as shown in the picture you had. It did have a set of counters with the space ship symbols for the game if I recall. (I still have my copy of Star Probe and the map but I have lost that third sheet so I cannot verify for sure.) Would be interested in hearing about Star Frontiers, especially if you could compare it to Traveller.
Thank you for this! I looked online and saw someone was offering a "complete" set of Star Probe on Ebay and it seemed to have some kind of counter sheet but I think it was just a bad picture and I didn't make it out properly. I think it was instead the spaceship symbols you referred to. I think a deeper dive into Star Frontiers will be coming in the future! Stay tuned, and thanks for your support of the channel!
I'm a fan of Classic Traveller, but I can well understand why it didn't really gel with the majority of RPGers. 1) The infamous death-during-chargen. 2) Too mathy. 3) Based on a somewhat obscure series of SF novels (E.C. Tubb's Dumarest Saga) 4) It suffers from Wall of Text syndrome: not enough eye-candy illustrations to suit people 5) Not based on Star Wars even remotely, despite coming out the same year. 6) The original setting is unapologetically humano-centric: alien species didn't get a release until later. 7) The plain black covers don't have "shelf appeal".
@@whiskeyvictor5703 You're viewing it from the lens of looking at it 40 years later. From 1977 to around the late 1980s it was the KING of sci fi TTRPGs and nothing even came close. I think Star Wars d6 is the first sci fi TTRPG game that really challenged it and arguably overtook it. Yes, it wasn't a perfect game but it was the king for at least a decade. Loved it. And it influenced every other TTRPG game that came after it. The real competition with sci fi TTRPGs has always been fantasy -- fantasy TTRPGs have always been more popular than sci fi TTRPGs.
Yes, Star Probe came in a plastic bag with map and counters. It was a fun 'primer' for Star Empires...now THAT was a game! WRT Star Frontiers; I always felt it hokey compared to the wonders of Traveller.
Yes, Star Frontiers is very different from Traveller. I think TSR kind of waited too long to get into the true Science-Fiction marketplace and Traveller was a good game that gained traction, so it was going to be very difficult to break into that market five years later. Thanks for watching and commenting!
El Pancho was with the game that occurred even before Blackmoor He may have carried it over in to boot Hill, but it was with the brownstone game that was run by Dwayne Jenkins. Loving the video so far, still watching . by the way, when brownstone ended pretty much black more began, although the two of them were talking about the rules on anything Braunstein and the potential of variants. Of course Dwayne was a western and Arneson was set into a fantasy medieval, not initially fantasy but definitely medieval. The fantasy stepped in when Bill Hoyt left Ian the fall of 1970 and immediately they started creeping it in. update: finished watching the video and you are spot on with the information. And also reflects my point of view. There is some interesting things that Dave had told me in regards to star pro and star Empire way back one. I think we kind of talked about it at little bit, but thought I’d draw your attention to it , when you get a chance, give me a call and I can explain
Thank you so much for this, Kevin. I'm so glad you liked the video and I appreciate the clarification on El Pancho being played in Brownstone as well! I think I knew that but it slipped my mind (as a lot of things do when I'm talking spontaneously off the top of my head). Thanks and we'll chat soon. Cheers!
I hope you enjoy it when you have a chance to watch it! I do very briefly mention Empire of the Petal Throne but I do have a whole video dedicated to that game as well - it's one of my very earliest videos!
I think Daddy Rolled a 1 really trying to say "universal sci-fi" system. Yes, do not agree with this claim that Science Fantasy is not Sci FI. Yes, EoPT is Science Fantasy and Metamorphosis Alpha is probably considered Science Fantasy or post-apocalyptic Sci-Fi and Gamma World is definitely post-apocalyptic Sc iFi. So yes -- technically if you consider Science Fantasy a sub-genre of Sci-fi then EoPT was TSR's first sci-fi TTRPG. It's a contested definition some people consider EoPT (1975) first, some people Metamorphosis Alpha (1976) and some Gamma World (1978). Even if you don't consider Science Fantasy a part of Sci Fi, I would still argue that Gamma World is definitely sci-fi (laser guns and mutants, etc.), i.e. post-apocalyptic sci-fi is definitely a sub-genre of sci fi. To say Gamma World is not sci-fi would be like arguing that the "Terminator" movie series is not sci-fi. It is.
This from Wikipedia on what is considered the first sci-fi TTRPG. The source of this information is from Shannon Applecline and his Designers & Dragons series that is using the Catalog of Copyright Entries as his source. So based on this source (The Catalog of Copyright Entries) it is August 1996 for Starfaring and November 1976 for Metamorphosis Alpha. (and as you notice MA would have been first but they didn't publish on time). "Several sources call Metamorphosis Alpha the first science fiction role-playing game, but others name Starfaring as the first. Designers & Dragons: The '70s, p. 25, and the Catalog of Copyright Entries. Third Series 1976: July-December, p. 2992 give the publication date of Metamorphosis Alpha as November 1976, while Catalog of Copyright Entries. Third Series 1976: July-December, p. 3051 give Starfaring a publication date of August 1976, several months earlier. RPG historian Stu Horvath, in his 2023 book Monsters, Aliens and Holes in the Ground (p. 14), notes that TSR planned to premiere Metamorphosis Alpha at Origins Game Fair in July 1976, hence the July 1976 date in the foreword, but due to production delays it was not released until November 1976."
@@daddyrolleda1 I don't agree re sci fantasy and sci fi. So for me Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World are in the mix. I can see an argument for EotPT being fantasy, as the sci fi element is very nebulous and mostly in the planet's history. With aliens being treated like fantasy races. However, you laid out you reasoning well, defined your parameters/definition and you can't argue with that. So via your definition I can see why you went with what you selected. You also highlighted some gems I need to have a read of.
@@trebormills I agree with you maybe, maybe I could see MA being categorized as science fantasy, but not Gamma World -- (post apocalyptic setting, advanced technology, robots, ray guns, mutants, etc. ) -- GW is definitely sci fi. Yes, "soft" sci fi -- but still sci fi.
Something about Star Frontiers would be interesting. Of itself, there was relatively little product support to sustain it as a line. D&D lines were prioritised above all else, but I do wonder whether basic system design or rules originally for Star Frontiers were repurposed for Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, and whether some original concepts were later used in Spell Jammer. Spell Jammer was very rapidly developed, and it seems like use of stuff from old notebooks the designers had around might happen.
I'm extremely familiar with the Buck Rogers XXVc game -- The Buck Rogers XXVc game used a variation of the 2nd Ed D&D rules. So, it actually plays a lot like D&D 2e but uses a space setting. Buck Rogers is not based on Star Frontiers. Buck Rogers gets a lot of negative reactions but is actually a pretty game. The setting is a little distopian but actually a good setting -- although I wish they's just use the setting from the 1st season of the Buck Rogers TV show and I think they would have done a lot better.
Yes, I was just chatting with another viewer/commenter about this. I ran S3 about ~12 years ago and my players HATED that chart!!! Thanks for watching and commenting, and also for your support of the channel. Cheers!
I hadn't heard of Europa until just a few years ago. I searched and searched for a copy of this particular issue with this quote/article by Gygax, but gave up after awhile. It'd be great to find them somewhere. So much old gaming history is being lost with the passing of the founders, but a lot of it can be kept if there could be a repository online of digital copies of this stuff! How did you even hear of Europa back then?! And, thanks for watching and commenting. Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1 WELL YOU SEE - I was a big Play By Mail Diplomacy player. And was part of many of the early and "famous" zines. I know somewhere in boxes, even after all the moves I have made as a military man, I probably have some of them around my storage areas of older hobby stuff. It was such a blast from the past to hear you bring it up.
Speculation: in Europa, Gygax may still have been pushing back against the assertion by some historical wargamers that games with fantasy elements weren't "serious". Do you know if Greg Bell *lifted* any of his Warriors of Mars artwork? I don't think convention scoring is the equivalent of a boardgames victory condition. Experience points are a "scoring" mechanism too of course. 1st ed Boot Hill *can* be engaged with as a role playing game, but needn't be. But I guess this debate won't run out of steam unless the term RPG gets a precise, shared definition. I'd happily listen to you talk about Star Frontiers for 60 min.😊 Reading "The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons". Page 197 reproduces a letter from Gary to Dave immediately before D&D goes to print. "Have John get on the Space Rules & think up a title."
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks has the same style tech mastery flow chart. But it does appear to be different -- like Gary couldn't get permission to use the same charts again???
I remember that chart from S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks! I ran that adventure about 10 years ago for my group. They HATED that chart! I know S3 was originally played as a tournament scenario at Origins in 1976, but I'm not sure if it used that same tech mastery flowchart (or even if it had one at all). I'll try to do some digging and see what I can find out. Thanks! I hope you enjoyed the video.
Who owns the publishing rights to these old TSR properties today? For example, who owns Role-Aides which is, to an extent. its own world separate from Mystara or Forgotten Realms.
The ownership of those old TSR properties is, at best, confusing and muddled. Obviously Dungeons & Dragons is owned now by Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro. When WotC purchased TSR in 1997, they purchased *all* of their licenses. Over the years, WotC has published some game material including Gamma World and a Star Frontiers setting for D20 Future called "Star Law." There is some "flexibility" with other trademarks. For example, Merle Rasmussen, who designed Top Secret, came out with a revised edition of the game (using, as I understand, entirely new mechanics) back in 2017, and that was allowed to proceed without WotC interfering. James Ward, who designed Metamorphosis Alpha, had always retained the rights to that game and continued to publish different editions by a variety of publishers over the years prior to his passing. A few years ago, some folks decided that they had the rights to use TSR's old logos, name, and properties that Wizards had abandoned them by failing to renew their ownership to them, as required, and began development of a new Star Frontiers game. Wizards of the Coast sued them claiming that, although they had not renewed the licenses in a timely fashion as required, they had continued to sell PDFs of the old products and using its old IP, including trademarks, which constituted "common law trademark rights." The new edition of Star Frontiers was quashed (which is really a good thing, considering the kind of content these other folks were adding to it). So, for now, that one is a mystery, as I don't see Wizards of the Coast doing anything with the license other than selling PDFs of the old stuff. That brings us to Role-Aids. As you may know, TSR acquired Mayfair's Role-Aids line in 1994 (I think it was 1994), so when TSR was acquired by Wizards of the Coast, that should mean those products now fall under Wizards/Hasbro. However, to my knowledge, the company has not done anything with those old products (they're not even for sale as PDFs on DriveThruRPG or DM Guild, etc.). Sorry that doesn't really help as far as "who owns the publishing rights" because it really is kind of confusing. My understanding is that if Wizards did not renew the trademarks of the Role-Aids stuff *and* if they haven't been selling it to maintain their ownership rights of the IP, it *might* be fair use for someone to publish them again, but I'm definitely not a lawyer and have no idea what the legal ramifications would be for doing such a thing.
@@daddyrolleda1 thanks for the quick response, your whole comment was as where my mind went because I’ve seen nothing for Role-Aides and it’s world is mostly different from the established stuff on Elves, Dwarves as Kobolds, etc.
Martin, another 20! It becomes more clear that your historian's hat did not come with a free bowl of soup. It is not "harping" that you emphasize what the text says. Gary, like any dedicated author chose his words. Words matter because their meaning forms ideas, and ideas have consequences. Armed with a clear understanding of the "rules", the guidelines that Gary published, one would tread lightly before they changed or discarded rules. It's the "campaign" from which subsequent editions of D&D moved. They moved toward the video game experience as that technology informed players' experiences and expectations. Too many of our generation were precocious - and that's great - but we got to playing and didn't necessarily read the texts carefully, or implement the rules (guidelines) as written. We forgot the forwards and intros, if we ever read them, and implemented "house rules" whimsically. If the system is corrupted or diluted it can seem "broken" or "unorganized" years later. Never mind decades. Gary and his circle labored over what they loved for several years. Not only were they pioneers in a niche realm, they took it to another level and published their play, transforming it to work. And they worked at it. And worked more. Role-playing, and the term itself evolved. In my opinion "role" refers primarily to Cleric, Fighter, MU, & Thief. Players then, instinctively, focused on personality for the role they played. Too much emphasis on the personality and the game-like experience begins to move toward what came to be known as LARPing. Think about our mundane lives at work. What role do you play for your company? You perform a job, tasks, with a goal. Your personality is not supposed to matter. You will more likely to be successful if you get along with your colleagues. You don't have to, but you should. Same with the roles in a D&D party. Thanks Martin, keep 'em coming. Hope your campaign with your girls is chugging along.
Thank you so much! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Very interesting perspective, and I do think you're right in that most folks didn't read (or didn't remember) the introductions and forewords to the various books. I do remember being fixated on playing but over time I spent more time reading and re-reading those introductions. There is a lot of interesting stuff in there if one takes the time to study it for context. My campaign with the girls is still rolling along but sadly the consistency of month-to-month has slowed due to more school-related things getting in the way. One of the players is in summer school to make up for some poor grades last school year and her "punishment" is no fun activities until her grades are up to at least passing, so we've not played since late May. I'm itching to get back to it soon!
@@daddyrolleda1 I can empathize with the girl. In 1985, I failed a Spanish class in middle school. 70 was passing for us (an accelerated program) and I got a 65. I was a 90+ avg. in all other classes. My mother confiscated my D&D books for the weekdays. I could only have them on weekends as long as all my assignments were done and quizzes passed. Never failed again! Im impressed they want to play at their age, in this day and age! Think of a different twist in the meantime to make the re-union exceptional.
another great video Martin... this might be a nice segue into what could easily be considered the 2nd greatest and most influential RPG of all time. Traveller. The ultimate Science Fiction RPG.. complete with the most notorious but hilarious gaming meme of all time. What vast differences in the flagship RPG games those two companies put out. Level based... skill based. Love what you do and the history of RPG's... perhaps at some point you might jump to what others were doing. Would love to hear your thoughts on those. You haven't really lived until ....
Thank you so much! I swear I had meant to mention this in my video. I can certainly add it to the list. I always feel a little gun-shy or even a tad disingenuous talking about non-TSR games, as I honestly didn't really play and/or even see them until much later! I was aware of other games via ads in Dragon Magazine, but where I lived, our shops only stocked TSR stuff. My first non-TSR game was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and that was around 7 years after I discovered D&D. I definitely know those other games and companies are important, but I don't want to let anyone down by doing a video that doesn't include all the nuances of having played the game! Hopefully that makes sense. But that said, I am strongly considering it!
@@daddyrolleda1 Better late than never perhaps to finally explore them. Especially Traveller. It has quite a colorful history, with colorful creators, that I think you might really dig and could really do justice with your videos. I didn't get into Traveller myself until recently. Sure I had heard of it, who hadn't back then, but never tried it. Until just recently but after I saw the Seth Skorkowsky introduction videos to Traveller I was like.. you know better late than never and took the plunge into the most recent version of it. He hit the nail on the head. Much as I came to think, perhaps you might. 'where has this game been my entire life' A fascinating game system. Especially with its absolutely boss character creation system. A game within a game.
@@michaelberry6016 The rules are available on Bundle of Holding as PDFs (some of the booklets). Lucky enough to have about 10 of the physical booklets. Fantastic game!!
Thank you so much! It was a lot of work to put together with so many different pieces, but I enjoyed the process. I really appreciate you watching and commenting, and also your support of the channel. Cheers!
I expected to see a video about Star Frontiers from the thumbnail -- sorry this is kind of clickbait. Yeah, sorry had to just skip to the conclusion and -- and in the end didn't really see a conclusion? What do you consider the first TTRPG from Tactical Studies Rules or TSR per the Title of your video? IMO it is Metamorphosis Alpha, it's basically a post-apocalyptic setting (which is a sub-genre of sci fi). I could consider EoPT (science fantasy) but I don't just because EoPT doesn't have laser guns (doesn't even have guns at all if I remember correctly). Science Fantasy is sci fi (what you can do is say "sci-fi excluding the science fantasy genre" -- that's one way of doing it) 🙂 Don't mean clickbait in a bad way (but you could have just said something like TSR pre-cursors to Star Frontiers or something like that -- which would have been much more accurate) -- just we all really wanted a Star Frontiers video -- please release a Star Frontiers video !
@@MarkCMG My problem with this is there is nothing wrong about a "Star Probe" video, but think it should have advertised as such -- not a loosey goosey discussion that Star Probe can maybe potentially be considered an RPG. No Star Probe is not a TTRPG! The other point is that I consider Metamorphosis Alpha sci-fi. (post-apocalyptic setting, spaceship, advanced technology, ray guns, robots, mutants). I think Martin (and I do enjoy most of his videos. Most of his videos are fact-based and really good!) should have been clearer that this video was based on some of his "opinions". Great I think to have "opinion" videos sometimes -- but just be super clear that they are "opinions". Curious what your opinion is? My opinion is that Metamorphosis Alpha is sci-fi and thus was TSR's first TTRPG. Although kind of an irrelevant point because first Sci-fi TTRPG (yes not a TSR TTRPG) was Starfaring by Ken St. Andrew, was published a few months before Metamorphosis Alpha.
These are absolutely some interesting videos. I do enjoy the history but this video can easily have 20 minutes cut as you tend to rehash and meander here and it's difficult to keep it straight as a viewer. You read a whole foreword you didn't need to read during a section about 'proving why a game can be considered roleplaying". This is very common in most of your videos and it can take multiple days for me to get through one of them. I almost didn't watch your 'From Imirrhos to Mystara: The Known World' video because it's almost 2 hours and it took me 3 days to get all the way through it. This video is the most evident one to date showing your disdain for Gary Gygax. I realize the history should be set straight but the tone is on the negative side. Maybe be more concise with your points and examples and also less trying to denounce every argument or counter-argument you've ever found about a particular subject. Or maybe there's a better way (visually?) to present fact vs. fiction for any particular issue or factoid.
There is no difference between Science Fantasy and Science Fiction. I'm so tired of this idea. Carl Sagan was a fiction writer. Fiction is fantasy. Please let this idea pass into the ether of the past.
Thank you for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel. I hope despite not liking my separation of science-fiction and science-fantasy that you enjoy the rest of the video. Cheers!
The definiton of these terms does change over time. E.G., when H. G. Wells and Jules Verne were writing, War of the Worlds and From the Earth to the Moon were labelled fantasy. Later they were considered Science Fiction. Science Fantasy as a genre didn't exist in the early 1900s, but things evolve.
I think there is a historical division between "hard" science fiction that was written to appeal to scientists and engineers versus the other types of science fiction that were focused on futurism and hand-waved technologies into existence with techno-bable. It would be like comparing science fiction like Arthur C Clarke and that of George Lucas or Roddenberry. And then there are fantasies with touches of deliberate science fiction pastiched onto the fantasy, like Greyhawk or Gene Wolfe or Anne McCaffery.
@@matthewludivico1714 Back in the day we used the term "hard" and "soft" to distinguish between them. Asimov would have been considered "hard" and some of Jack Vance "soft", etc.
I would LOVE an episode about Star Frontiers, which was the second RPG I played after B/X D&D. I also played TSRs Conan RPG which I thought was interesting in terms of character creation and "skill" based system instead of straight up "levelling". I'd love to see a video about that too! Keep going!
My first TTRPG was Star Frontiers. Let's go!
How fun! I hope you enjoy the video!
*fistbump* Ditto. I did play a lot of Dungeon! with my cousins and brother before that, but SF marked my first actual RPG.
I would also love an episode on Star Frontiers. It was the second role playing game I played and was very formative for me as a kid.
Only just bought my replacement POD 2 weeks ago of this!
I'm glad that a lot of old stuff like this is available for PDF/POD for folks who either weren't around or who had to get rid of their copies back in the day. Cheers!
I would love a Star Frontiers video.
I will add it to the list of potential future videos. Thanks!
Another well-researched, thoughtful discussion. Thank you for doing this.
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for letting me know. I appreciate it!
I seem to remember a Star Frontiers ship combat game, was that a thing?
Knight Hawks?
Yes! I think it was a year after the release of Star Frontiers that the line was "re-branded" as Star Frontiers "Alpha Dawn" (the base game, pretty much identical to the one shown in my video) and "Knight Hawks" which were the starship rules. So, they did add those rules eventually.
@@daddyrolleda1 thanks, again, outstanding research/presentation here.
I tried Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha with some friends.. it was a nice change of scenery.
Gamma World was the second RPG I ever played after D&D!
Thanks for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel!
"You don't need miniatures, but you do kinda need miniatures" 😂
I had a very similar reaction!
Another great video!!! Your information is second to none. I honestly think you should look into the first board games put out by TSR. That would be very interesting to me. I got Outdoor Survival recently, it’s not a TSR game, that game was actually mentioned in the 1st D&D printing for the map, but I had Dungeon! And The Awful Green Things from Outer Space, both TSR board games. Love your channel
Thank you so much! I really appreciate your support. And I can add the TSR board games to my list of potential future topics. That's really cool that you have a copy of Outdoor Survival!
Agree about winning conditions. When I teach new players about TTRPGs I tell them that there's no winner, the goal is to tell a good story. But that's the way they're usually played.
As long as you're making decisions as your character would instead of how you would, it's role playing. I have a TTRPG one shot inspired by the game Clue, there's definitely ways to win that one.
The definitions get very muddy. I was thinking of something like Clue as well! You're definitely a "character" but I think the difference in that case is that the decisions you make to "play your character" have limited impact on the outcome. But it's only a few steps removed from role-playing, I think.
@@daddyrolleda1 Sure the board game isn't role playing. But the TTRPG I wrote does let you customize and the RP impacts it. It's a bit of a cross between, like a RP/board game
Totally makes sense! I saw you mentioned you created a TTRPG Clue one-shot, and that sounds really fun!
I used to own and play a copy of Star Probe. Silly little matrix game, but showed the open world potential of matrix tables to table top gaming. If anything, I think it would be a model for PC 4x games that have a touch of role playing, kind of like PC BBS games from the 1980s and 1990s when the internet was still a physically limited by data transfer speeds.
Man, this episode gave me a nostalgia blast, but from a completely unexpected source. You talking about "Just Say 50" in the bonus content made me think of all the other "Just Say..." CD compilations from Sire I used to collect in the 80s and 90s. Time to break out all those Depeche Mode remixes!
Thank you so much for watching all the way through the bonus content!
You have just gained +10,000 XP.
Seriously, I really appreciate it. Cheers!
"Hocus Pocus" and "Blitzkrieg Bop" on the same side of the same LP is hilarious to me.
I found the interview with Gygax quite telling. By 1980 I was fed up with GG and his whole approach to RPGs. I found the Dungeon Master's Guide was full of (borderline control freak) asides about how to manage and control the players. I always found his approach too adversarial, which ultimately led me away from D&D in 1981 (I used Rolemaster for years). I have only just realized that I felt Gygax style D&D was like a SAW movie; led by a diabolical adversary laying out life-threatening traps and torturous puzzles. I always thought that it was just his wargamer background, but the idea that he saw the games as fundamentally more about solving challenges than story telling really brings the things I disliked about his rules into a new light.
I had a whole Boot Hill campaign built around the outlaw trail (Four Corners, to Brown's Park, to the Arches). However, we mostly played one shots, like individual western movies. The main scenario cue was "100 years Ago Today," which in the late 1970s worked really well.
Thanks again Martin, I really love your delivery and content.
As I've gotten older, I've come to quite like things like resource management and such that were big parts of the early game but which I discounted at the time. That said, there was a very early adversarial relationship between DM and Players that I was never quite fond of and to which I think you're referring in your comment. So, I agree with you.
I love your SAW analogy! (Even though I've never seen any of the movies - I get the gist).
After I moved, I discovered a new group of gaming friends who player Rolemaster in their youth because their moms wouldn't let them play D&D due to the supposed "satanic" overtones. They had no problem with Rolemaster, though, which I find hilarious. They always called it "Chartmaster." I remember the ads for the game in every single Dragon magazine!
Thank you so much for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it.
@@daddyrolleda1RM was probably the best set of RPG ever created, says I; but the game was so complex and chart-bound none of my friends would play. The critical and fumble charts were so funny to skim over though; in one ludicrously bizarre moment we killed a charging horseman with the same archery critical roll: both his kidneys were shot out of his body. 😂
The watered down MERP was easier to cope with, and in ways more fun. With some of the best designed (but perhaps not the easiest to read) adventure books and scenarios out there.
This is a topic I know little about. I’m looking forward to watching!
Thank you so much for this support! And I really hope you like this video. Cheers!
Star Frontiers was my go to RPG for years. Came back to it a couple of years ago. It didn’t hold up as well. Still love it for nostalgia purposes.
I've not played it since the 1980's! So, nostalgia is definitely a factor for me. What specifically did you think didn't hold up?
Thanks for watching and commenting!
I'd be up for a video devoted to Star Frontiers.
will definitely add it to the list! Thanks!
There can be arguments that Empire of the Petal Throne (Tekumel) is a science fiction RPG game. But yeah... if you don't really consider Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha as science fiction, you will surely discount Tekumel, as well.
Yeah, I discuss the limited science-fiction elements in Empire of the Petal Throne in my video on that game (one of my first videos!) but that game isn't *played* as a science-fiction game. The setting is perhaps science-fiction but extrapolated to the point that it becomes fantasy again with spells and such.
Thanks as always for watching and commenting!
Please do a video on Star Frontiers.
I have added it to the list!
Arneson's El Paucho character was in Duane Jenkin's Brownstone game in 1971 - this had nothing to do with Boot Hill other than possibly inspiring it. I don't know one way or the other if Arneson ever played Boot Hill, except to say he was never involved in any campaigns. Easy slip up to make Martin.
Thanks - someone else pointed this out, too. As you mentioned, it was a slip-up as I knew El Paucho was from Brownstone but I also for some reason had in the back of my mind that he'd played the same character in Boot Hill. But that could just be my mind playing tricks on me.
I loved Star Frontiers! I got giddy when I saw some of the races from SF show up in D20 Future.
Yes! Wasn't that cool? I thought the same thing!
bonus comment: Sire 50th collection, nice!
Sire/Mute basicly made the majority of the soundtrack to my life in the 80's. 😎👍🏼
Thank you so much for sticking all the way through! Glad you enjoyed it! So much great music on this collection and it's really fun to listen to it in order and hear how the music was changing over the years. Cheers!
Thanks for the video! As always, keen insights and observations!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching and commenting!
@40:26 It seems Gary agrees with my previous comment. RPing is about problem solving and exploration. Whether you use sword, spells, prayers, or stealth - the role you play - it's about a challenge. It isn't primarily a thespian activity. Play acting a personality (with voices) can and often does add to the gaming experience, but it isn't what was intended.
They are definitely different styles, and as you mention, adding them together often creates the best results. From what I've been told from folks who knew Dave Arneson, he was a little less focused on wanting to codify a specific set of rules but leave it more open, much more in line with a Braunstein type game. But yes, based on what Gary wrote, at least at the time, he was more focused on overcoming challenges than playing a role. The mixture of the two is what, I think, has given the game such legs throughout the decades.
Traveller came out in 1977.
@@whoobibi Yes, I know. I've talked about Traveller a few times here on the channel. Did I accidentally say the wrong year?
Fantastic game!! I love Traveller 1e.
I love the explanation and tie in of Star Probe to Gamma World and how to resolve character interaction and unknown or novel technology. I believe Mutant Crawl Classics has a similar mechanic.
I've not played Mutant Crawl Classics but I like a lot of what I've seen in the book, and a flowchart for resolving characters interacting with unknown technology seems like a perfect fit for that game!
I am 57 and re-bought the Dungeon Boardgame to play with my grandkids!
Thanks. Interesting history of Star Probe and Star Empires. Just one note but I don't think Star Probe had a sheet of die cut counters as shown in the picture you had. It did have a set of counters with the space ship symbols for the game if I recall. (I still have my copy of Star Probe and the map but I have lost that third sheet so I cannot verify for sure.)
Would be interested in hearing about Star Frontiers, especially if you could compare it to Traveller.
Thank you for this! I looked online and saw someone was offering a "complete" set of Star Probe on Ebay and it seemed to have some kind of counter sheet but I think it was just a bad picture and I didn't make it out properly. I think it was instead the spaceship symbols you referred to.
I think a deeper dive into Star Frontiers will be coming in the future! Stay tuned, and thanks for your support of the channel!
The art in Star Empires has a very clip-art look to it, in a good way.
I can see what you mean! I thought it was fun to see some non-fantasy art by Sutherland. Cheers!
All Science-Fiction RPG's take a back seat to the real sci fi 800 pound gorilla TRAVELLER....
I'm a fan of Classic Traveller, but I can well understand why it didn't really gel with the majority of RPGers.
1) The infamous death-during-chargen.
2) Too mathy.
3) Based on a somewhat obscure series of SF novels (E.C. Tubb's Dumarest Saga)
4) It suffers from Wall of Text syndrome: not enough eye-candy illustrations to suit people
5) Not based on Star Wars even remotely, despite coming out the same year.
6) The original setting is unapologetically humano-centric: alien species didn't get a release until later.
7) The plain black covers don't have "shelf appeal".
@@whiskeyvictor5703 You're viewing it from the lens of looking at it 40 years later. From 1977 to around the late 1980s it was the KING of sci fi TTRPGs and nothing even came close. I think Star Wars d6 is the first sci fi TTRPG game that really challenged it and arguably overtook it. Yes, it wasn't a perfect game but it was the king for at least a decade. Loved it. And it influenced every other TTRPG game that came after it.
The real competition with sci fi TTRPGs has always been fantasy -- fantasy TTRPGs have always been more popular than sci fi TTRPGs.
Yes, Star Probe came in a plastic bag with map and counters. It was a fun 'primer' for Star Empires...now THAT was a game! WRT Star Frontiers; I always felt it hokey compared to the wonders of Traveller.
Yes, Star Frontiers is very different from Traveller. I think TSR kind of waited too long to get into the true Science-Fiction marketplace and Traveller was a good game that gained traction, so it was going to be very difficult to break into that market five years later. Thanks for watching and commenting!
well, star probe and empire sounds like interesting games so does star frontiers - would love to see more about them
I will add them all to the list of potential future topics. Thank you so much for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it.
Greetings, Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League.... oh wait, sorry wrong universe 🙂.
El Pancho was with the game that occurred even before Blackmoor He may have carried it over in to boot Hill, but it was with the brownstone game that was run by Dwayne Jenkins.
Loving the video so far, still watching .
by the way, when brownstone ended pretty much black more began, although the two of them were talking about the rules on anything Braunstein and the potential of variants. Of course Dwayne was a western and Arneson was set into a fantasy medieval, not initially fantasy but definitely medieval. The fantasy stepped in when Bill Hoyt left Ian the fall of 1970 and immediately they started creeping it in.
update: finished watching the video and you are spot on with the information. And also reflects my point of view. There is some interesting things that Dave had told me in regards to star pro and star Empire way back one. I think we kind of talked about it at little bit, but thought I’d draw your attention to it , when you get a chance, give me a call and I can explain
Thank you so much for this, Kevin. I'm so glad you liked the video and I appreciate the clarification on El Pancho being played in Brownstone as well! I think I knew that but it slipped my mind (as a lot of things do when I'm talking spontaneously off the top of my head).
Thanks and we'll chat soon. Cheers!
The first sci fi rpg...EotPT? Metamorphosis Alpha? Gamma World? Surely not Star Frontiers.
Watch to find out
I hope you enjoy it when you have a chance to watch it! I do very briefly mention Empire of the Petal Throne but I do have a whole video dedicated to that game as well - it's one of my very earliest videos!
I think Daddy Rolled a 1 really trying to say "universal sci-fi" system. Yes, do not agree with this claim that Science Fantasy is not Sci FI. Yes, EoPT is Science Fantasy and Metamorphosis Alpha is probably considered Science Fantasy or post-apocalyptic Sci-Fi and Gamma World is definitely post-apocalyptic Sc iFi. So yes -- technically if you consider Science Fantasy a sub-genre of Sci-fi then EoPT was TSR's first sci-fi TTRPG. It's a contested definition some people consider EoPT (1975) first, some people Metamorphosis Alpha (1976) and some Gamma World (1978). Even if you don't consider Science Fantasy a part of Sci Fi, I would still argue that Gamma World is definitely sci-fi (laser guns and mutants, etc.), i.e. post-apocalyptic sci-fi is definitely a sub-genre of sci fi. To say Gamma World is not sci-fi would be like arguing that the "Terminator" movie series is not sci-fi. It is.
This from Wikipedia on what is considered the first sci-fi TTRPG. The source of this information is from Shannon Applecline and his Designers & Dragons series that is using the Catalog of Copyright Entries as his source. So based on this source (The Catalog of Copyright Entries) it is August 1996 for Starfaring and November 1976 for Metamorphosis Alpha. (and as you notice MA would have been first but they didn't publish on time).
"Several sources call Metamorphosis Alpha the first science fiction role-playing game, but others name Starfaring as the first. Designers & Dragons: The '70s, p. 25, and the Catalog of Copyright Entries. Third Series 1976: July-December, p. 2992 give the publication date of Metamorphosis Alpha as November 1976, while Catalog of Copyright Entries. Third Series 1976: July-December, p. 3051 give Starfaring a publication date of August 1976, several months earlier. RPG historian Stu Horvath, in his 2023 book Monsters, Aliens and Holes in the Ground (p. 14), notes that TSR planned to premiere Metamorphosis Alpha at Origins Game Fair in July 1976, hence the July 1976 date in the foreword, but due to production delays it was not released until November 1976."
@@daddyrolleda1 I don't agree re sci fantasy and sci fi. So for me Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World are in the mix. I can see an argument for EotPT being fantasy, as the sci fi element is very nebulous and mostly in the planet's history. With aliens being treated like fantasy races.
However, you laid out you reasoning well, defined your parameters/definition and you can't argue with that. So via your definition I can see why you went with what you selected. You also highlighted some gems I need to have a read of.
@@trebormills I agree with you maybe, maybe I could see MA being categorized as science fantasy, but not Gamma World -- (post apocalyptic setting, advanced technology, robots, ray guns, mutants, etc. ) -- GW is definitely sci fi. Yes, "soft" sci fi -- but still sci fi.
Something about Star Frontiers would be interesting. Of itself, there was relatively little product support to sustain it as a line. D&D lines were prioritised above all else, but I do wonder whether basic system design or rules originally for Star Frontiers were repurposed for Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, and whether some original concepts were later used in Spell Jammer. Spell Jammer was very rapidly developed, and it seems like use of stuff from old notebooks the designers had around might happen.
I'm extremely familiar with the Buck Rogers XXVc game -- The Buck Rogers XXVc game used a variation of the 2nd Ed D&D rules. So, it actually plays a lot like D&D 2e but uses a space setting. Buck Rogers is not based on Star Frontiers. Buck Rogers gets a lot of negative reactions but is actually a pretty game.
The setting is a little distopian but actually a good setting -- although I wish they's just use the setting from the 1st season of the Buck Rogers TV show and I think they would have done a lot better.
Dude, you're awesome.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate hearing stuff like this - it makes all the effort worth it. Cheers!
Similar flow chart in S3 Expedition to Barrier Peaks as well
Yes, I was just chatting with another viewer/commenter about this. I ran S3 about ~12 years ago and my players HATED that chart!!!
Thanks for watching and commenting, and also for your support of the channel. Cheers!
Oh my gosh. I used to get the Europa Zine. What a memory moment. ❤
I hadn't heard of Europa until just a few years ago. I searched and searched for a copy of this particular issue with this quote/article by Gygax, but gave up after awhile. It'd be great to find them somewhere. So much old gaming history is being lost with the passing of the founders, but a lot of it can be kept if there could be a repository online of digital copies of this stuff!
How did you even hear of Europa back then?!
And, thanks for watching and commenting. Cheers!
@@daddyrolleda1 WELL YOU SEE - I was a big Play By Mail Diplomacy player. And was part of many of the early and "famous" zines. I know somewhere in boxes, even after all the moves I have made as a military man, I probably have some of them around my storage areas of older hobby stuff. It was such a blast from the past to hear you bring it up.
Oh wow! That makes me feel great. I'm glad to have sparked some positive nostalgia for you. Thanks for letting me know!
Great video as usual.
You are the best! I am truly touched by your support of the channel. Thank you so much. Cheers!
I have 2 copies of Dungeon! that I found at thrift stores but have never had a chance to play it.
I hope you get a chance to play soon!
Speculation: in Europa, Gygax may still have been pushing back against the assertion by some historical wargamers that games with fantasy elements weren't "serious".
Do you know if Greg Bell *lifted* any of his Warriors of Mars artwork?
I don't think convention scoring is the equivalent of a boardgames victory condition. Experience points are a "scoring" mechanism too of course.
1st ed Boot Hill *can* be engaged with as a role playing game, but needn't be. But I guess this debate won't run out of steam unless the term RPG gets a precise, shared definition.
I'd happily listen to you talk about Star Frontiers for 60 min.😊
Reading "The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons". Page 197 reproduces a letter from Gary to Dave immediately before D&D goes to print. "Have John get on the Space Rules & think up a title."
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks has the same style tech mastery flow chart. But it does appear to be different -- like Gary couldn't get permission to use the same charts again???
I remember that chart from S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks! I ran that adventure about 10 years ago for my group. They HATED that chart!
I know S3 was originally played as a tournament scenario at Origins in 1976, but I'm not sure if it used that same tech mastery flowchart (or even if it had one at all). I'll try to do some digging and see what I can find out.
Thanks! I hope you enjoyed the video.
Are used to play a space RPG it was called gamma was a pretty good game, but they never really went anywhere.
Who owns the publishing rights to these old TSR properties today? For example, who owns Role-Aides which is, to an extent. its own world separate from Mystara or Forgotten Realms.
The ownership of those old TSR properties is, at best, confusing and muddled. Obviously Dungeons & Dragons is owned now by Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro. When WotC purchased TSR in 1997, they purchased *all* of their licenses. Over the years, WotC has published some game material including Gamma World and a Star Frontiers setting for D20 Future called "Star Law."
There is some "flexibility" with other trademarks. For example, Merle Rasmussen, who designed Top Secret, came out with a revised edition of the game (using, as I understand, entirely new mechanics) back in 2017, and that was allowed to proceed without WotC interfering. James Ward, who designed Metamorphosis Alpha, had always retained the rights to that game and continued to publish different editions by a variety of publishers over the years prior to his passing.
A few years ago, some folks decided that they had the rights to use TSR's old logos, name, and properties that Wizards had abandoned them by failing to renew their ownership to them, as required, and began development of a new Star Frontiers game. Wizards of the Coast sued them claiming that, although they had not renewed the licenses in a timely fashion as required, they had continued to sell PDFs of the old products and using its old IP, including trademarks, which constituted "common law trademark rights." The new edition of Star Frontiers was quashed (which is really a good thing, considering the kind of content these other folks were adding to it). So, for now, that one is a mystery, as I don't see Wizards of the Coast doing anything with the license other than selling PDFs of the old stuff.
That brings us to Role-Aids. As you may know, TSR acquired Mayfair's Role-Aids line in 1994 (I think it was 1994), so when TSR was acquired by Wizards of the Coast, that should mean those products now fall under Wizards/Hasbro. However, to my knowledge, the company has not done anything with those old products (they're not even for sale as PDFs on DriveThruRPG or DM Guild, etc.).
Sorry that doesn't really help as far as "who owns the publishing rights" because it really is kind of confusing. My understanding is that if Wizards did not renew the trademarks of the Role-Aids stuff *and* if they haven't been selling it to maintain their ownership rights of the IP, it *might* be fair use for someone to publish them again, but I'm definitely not a lawyer and have no idea what the legal ramifications would be for doing such a thing.
@@daddyrolleda1 thanks for the quick response, your whole comment was as where my mind went because I’ve seen nothing for Role-Aides and it’s world is mostly different from the established stuff on Elves, Dwarves as Kobolds, etc.
Martin, another 20! It becomes more clear that your historian's hat did not come with a free bowl of soup. It is not "harping" that you emphasize what the text says. Gary, like any dedicated author chose his words. Words matter because their meaning forms ideas, and ideas have consequences. Armed with a clear understanding of the "rules", the guidelines that Gary published, one would tread lightly before they changed or discarded rules. It's the "campaign" from which subsequent editions of D&D moved. They moved toward the video game experience as that technology informed players' experiences and expectations. Too many of our generation were precocious - and that's great - but we got to playing and didn't necessarily read the texts carefully, or implement the rules (guidelines) as written. We forgot the forwards and intros, if we ever read them, and implemented "house rules" whimsically. If the system is corrupted or diluted it can seem "broken" or "unorganized" years later. Never mind decades. Gary and his circle labored over what they loved for several years. Not only were they pioneers in a niche realm, they took it to another level and published their play, transforming it to work. And they worked at it. And worked more. Role-playing, and the term itself evolved. In my opinion "role" refers primarily to Cleric, Fighter, MU, & Thief. Players then, instinctively, focused on personality for the role they played. Too much emphasis on the personality and the game-like experience begins to move toward what came to be known as LARPing. Think about our mundane lives at work. What role do you play for your company? You perform a job, tasks, with a goal. Your personality is not supposed to matter. You will more likely to be successful if you get along with your colleagues. You don't have to, but you should. Same with the roles in a D&D party. Thanks Martin, keep 'em coming. Hope your campaign with your girls is chugging along.
Thank you so much! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Very interesting perspective, and I do think you're right in that most folks didn't read (or didn't remember) the introductions and forewords to the various books. I do remember being fixated on playing but over time I spent more time reading and re-reading those introductions. There is a lot of interesting stuff in there if one takes the time to study it for context.
My campaign with the girls is still rolling along but sadly the consistency of month-to-month has slowed due to more school-related things getting in the way. One of the players is in summer school to make up for some poor grades last school year and her "punishment" is no fun activities until her grades are up to at least passing, so we've not played since late May. I'm itching to get back to it soon!
@@daddyrolleda1 I can empathize with the girl. In 1985, I failed a Spanish class in middle school. 70 was passing for us (an accelerated program) and I got a 65. I was a 90+ avg. in all other classes. My mother confiscated my D&D books for the weekdays. I could only have them on weekends as long as all my assignments were done and quizzes passed. Never failed again! Im impressed they want to play at their age, in this day and age! Think of a different twist in the meantime to make the re-union exceptional.
another great video Martin... this might be a nice segue into what could easily be considered the 2nd greatest and most influential RPG of all time.
Traveller. The ultimate Science Fiction RPG.. complete with the most notorious but hilarious gaming meme of all time. What vast differences in the flagship RPG games those two companies put out. Level based... skill based. Love what you do and the history of RPG's... perhaps at some point you might jump to what others were doing. Would love to hear your thoughts on those. You haven't really lived until ....
Thank you so much! I swear I had meant to mention this in my video. I can certainly add it to the list. I always feel a little gun-shy or even a tad disingenuous talking about non-TSR games, as I honestly didn't really play and/or even see them until much later! I was aware of other games via ads in Dragon Magazine, but where I lived, our shops only stocked TSR stuff. My first non-TSR game was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and that was around 7 years after I discovered D&D.
I definitely know those other games and companies are important, but I don't want to let anyone down by doing a video that doesn't include all the nuances of having played the game! Hopefully that makes sense. But that said, I am strongly considering it!
@@daddyrolleda1 Better late than never perhaps to finally explore them. Especially Traveller. It has quite a colorful history, with colorful creators, that I think you might really dig and could really do justice with your videos. I didn't get into Traveller myself until recently. Sure I had heard of it, who hadn't back then, but never tried it. Until just recently but after I saw the Seth Skorkowsky introduction videos to Traveller I was like.. you know better late than never and took the plunge into the most recent version of it. He hit the nail on the head. Much as I came to think, perhaps you might.
'where has this game been my entire life'
A fascinating game system. Especially with its absolutely boss character creation system. A game within a game.
@@michaelberry6016 The rules are available on Bundle of Holding as PDFs (some of the booklets). Lucky enough to have about 10 of the physical booklets. Fantastic game!!
this is very good
Thank you so much! It was a lot of work to put together with so many different pieces, but I enjoyed the process. I really appreciate you watching and commenting, and also your support of the channel. Cheers!
I expected to see a video about Star Frontiers from the thumbnail -- sorry this is kind of clickbait. Yeah, sorry had to just skip to the conclusion and -- and in the end didn't really see a conclusion? What do you consider the first TTRPG from Tactical Studies Rules or TSR per the Title of your video? IMO it is Metamorphosis Alpha, it's basically a post-apocalyptic setting (which is a sub-genre of sci fi). I could consider EoPT (science fantasy) but I don't just because EoPT doesn't have laser guns (doesn't even have guns at all if I remember correctly). Science Fantasy is sci fi (what you can do is say "sci-fi excluding the science fantasy genre" -- that's one way of doing it) 🙂
Don't mean clickbait in a bad way (but you could have just said something like TSR pre-cursors to Star Frontiers or something like that -- which would have been much more accurate) -- just we all really wanted a Star Frontiers video -- please release a Star Frontiers video !
@@MarkCMG My problem with this is there is nothing wrong about a "Star Probe" video, but think it should have advertised as such -- not a loosey goosey discussion that Star Probe can maybe potentially be considered an RPG. No Star Probe is not a TTRPG!
The other point is that I consider Metamorphosis Alpha sci-fi. (post-apocalyptic setting, spaceship, advanced technology, ray guns, robots, mutants). I think Martin (and I do enjoy most of his videos. Most of his videos are fact-based and really good!) should have been clearer that this video was based on some of his "opinions". Great I think to have "opinion" videos sometimes -- but just be super clear that they are "opinions".
Curious what your opinion is? My opinion is that Metamorphosis Alpha is sci-fi and thus was TSR's first TTRPG. Although kind of an irrelevant point because first Sci-fi TTRPG (yes not a TSR TTRPG) was Starfaring by Ken St. Andrew, was published a few months before Metamorphosis Alpha.
These are absolutely some interesting videos. I do enjoy the history but this video can easily have 20 minutes cut as you tend to rehash and meander here and it's difficult to keep it straight as a viewer. You read a whole foreword you didn't need to read during a section about 'proving why a game can be considered roleplaying". This is very common in most of your videos and it can take multiple days for me to get through one of them. I almost didn't watch your 'From Imirrhos to Mystara: The Known World' video because it's almost 2 hours and it took me 3 days to get all the way through it. This video is the most evident one to date showing your disdain for Gary Gygax. I realize the history should be set straight but the tone is on the negative side. Maybe be more concise with your points and examples and also less trying to denounce every argument or counter-argument you've ever found about a particular subject. Or maybe there's a better way (visually?) to present fact vs. fiction for any particular issue or factoid.
There is no difference between Science Fantasy and Science Fiction. I'm so tired of this idea. Carl Sagan was a fiction writer. Fiction is fantasy. Please let this idea pass into the ether of the past.
I'm guessing that you never watched cherry 2000 and Species. Big difference between them and what you see on star trek and Doctor Who..
Thank you for watching and commenting, and for your support of the channel. I hope despite not liking my separation of science-fiction and science-fantasy that you enjoy the rest of the video. Cheers!
The definiton of these terms does change over time. E.G., when H. G. Wells and Jules Verne were writing, War of the Worlds and From the Earth to the Moon were labelled fantasy. Later they were considered Science Fiction.
Science Fantasy as a genre didn't exist in the early 1900s, but things evolve.
I think there is a historical division between "hard" science fiction that was written to appeal to scientists and engineers versus the other types of science fiction that were focused on futurism and hand-waved technologies into existence with techno-bable. It would be like comparing science fiction like Arthur C Clarke and that of George Lucas or Roddenberry. And then there are fantasies with touches of deliberate science fiction pastiched onto the fantasy, like Greyhawk or Gene Wolfe or Anne McCaffery.
@@matthewludivico1714 Back in the day we used the term "hard" and "soft" to distinguish between them. Asimov would have been considered "hard" and some of Jack Vance "soft", etc.
Terrible game.