Plato vs. Machiavelli on Political Philosophy
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- Опубліковано 8 бер 2023
- In this lecture series, Dr. Peter Kreeft examines key ideas in philosophy by comparing and contrasting two representative philosophers in each episode.
In lecture 2, Dr. Kreeft examines the importance of finding and defining the fundamental differences between Plato-whose logic is inductive, deductive, and seductive-and Machiavelli -who, 2,000 years after Plato, set out a radical alternative to Plato’s ideal city and ruler.
To learn more about these philosophers and the other major philosophers who helped shape the world, check out Dr. Kreeft's book series, "Socrates' Children: An Introduction to Philosophy from the 100 Greatest Philosophers": books.wordonfire.org/socrates...
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I am obsessed with these lectures after having been an undergraduate theology student for a few years. It also supplements my Jesuit education from high school. I can't find anything like this on youtube or anywhere else. I am so thankful for Word on Fire Institute, as a member!! Thank you Dr. Peter Kreeft!!!!
Try @PhilosophyforthePeople or Philosophy for the People. They have some great guys over there explaining basic concepts in Catholic philosophy and secular philosophy as well.
These + Jordan B Cooper’s makers of the modern world + Michael Sugrue Philosophy series + John Vervaeke’s awakening from the meaning crisis + Jonathan Pageau’s Universal History… and baby you got a stew goin
I’d recommend Arthur Holmes from Wheatland College.
I am a 72yo INJF Pentecostal fundamentalist originally trained in biology, medicine, and pediatrics. Plato's Cave is atheistic scientific materialism taught in school.
1) Evolution is false on an eighth-grade rational man level. The evolutionary theory fits into the exact shape of a classic snow cone just replace the ice chips with new species and positive mutations which do not exist but should be commonplace. At the point of the snow cone is the "origins of life" which after over fifty years they do not have a mechanism for a self-replicating protein. The canning industry puts all the parts into a can billions of times a year and depends on neo-biogenesis not occurring. Information science shows that DNA can only degrade. Currently, we are in the sixth extinction crisis, that of large animals such as the lion, cheetah, and giraffe. Extinction crises are not predicted by the evolutionary theory but rather more and more new species. Creation is an upside-down snow cone that is devolving through entropy to the extinction of the biosphere just as we are seeing. The computer modelers of biological systems cannot reproduce Darwinian Evolution using Darwin's parameters either. This gives evolutionary psychology and especially psychiatric theory a false foundation. God bless you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Kent J. Nauman ex-MD (axis I schizophrenia (chronic))
2) ua-cam.com/video/fk4YqPtvJao/v-deo.html which is Under The Dome - Full Documentary
3) ua-cam.com/video/1TjIyXJoJOw/v-deo.html which is Howard Pittman's Testimony and other YouTubs videos, compare to "Man as a Machine" where the mind is the product of the brain as per the mind-body problem of philosophy
4) ua-cam.com/video/Xig257v-v8o/v-deo.html which is The Book of Giants (A History of Eugenics) compare to evolutionary theory and Genesis 6.
5) ua-cam.com/video/vuINhmT3V8Y/v-deo.html which is Nikola Tesla - The secrets hidden in the pyramids of Egypt compare to Genesis 6:16 A window (Zohar, inflatable light source) shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. and ua-cam.com/video/3yS03x3j71Y/v-deo.html which is newearth 038 When the Atlantis survivors wake up, pt 38 (Russian Archeology)
6) ua-cam.com/video/aDRj3MsNNO0/v-deo.html which is September 23, 2017 - Part 1: The Revelation 12 Sign - Unlocking Daniel's Sealed Prophecies by God's Roadmap to the End compare to Bullinger's the Witness of the Stars.
7) No one has to struggle with sin instead pray specific sanctification prayers over yourself in the name of Jesus Christ. Here is a starter list that I come into agreement with you on in the name of Jesus Christ. 1) Psalms 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Psalms 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Psalms 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. 2) Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 3) Psalms 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me. 4) John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 5) John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 6) Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; 7) Prayer and tithing go together like water and cement powder this is based on Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven (REVELATION), and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. and Act 10:4 And when he (Cornelius) looked on him (the angel), he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a MEMORIAL before God.
The following prayer is not in the Bible, as far as I know, but is based on John 16:13. This prayer works well for condemning thoughts in your head that are actually demonic revelations. Pray to God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for a Holy Spirit block in your head to stop the devil or any of his evil spirits from talking to you that you only want to talk with and obey the Holy Spirit. This prayer cleaned out my head really well about 35 years ago.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh (5 senses) do mind the things of the flesh (5 senses); but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded (5 senses) is death (separation from God like Adam did); but to be spiritually minded is life (G2222, Zoe, like together with God) and peace.
Download E-sword which is free at www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
The best study bible is in the public domain, Ethyl Bert Bullinger's Companion Bible. Here is a sample of his work levendwater.org/companion/append164.html while the best places to start reading and praying the Bible over yourself are John chapters 14-17 and the church epistles which are Romans through Thessalonians.
A very simple yet lovely book is Bullinger's Witness of the Stars, which explains that the first Bible was the Zodiac before men's memories deteriorated to the point that God had to give Moses a written Bible. The paper version is the best because of the map at the very back which you should pull out before you start reading the book. www.google.com/search?q=bullinger+witness+of+the+stars&oq=Bullinger%27s+Wit&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30.9354j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
@@Eusebeia7 Do you mean Plato's parable of the Cave is atheism/materialism or that the actual cave in that parable is? The 2nd is correct. All too many young (and old people) are locked up in a materialist whole, doped by video games. Any idealistic notion are then poisoned by identity politics and the alphabet mafia.
However, I cannot agree that Evolution is 8th grade false- maybe just a variation dumbed down to 8th grade, in which it supposedly explains the origin of life (it doesn't and never claimed that).
The phrase that converted me to philosophy completely was Plato’s “Phaedo”, in which Socrates says, “The study of philosophy is preparation for death and dying.” It struck me so strongly that I changed my whole major just because of it. I have never regretted it.
Did Socrates really say this? I have read Montaigne when he quoted Cicero on this and that Cicero had Socrates in mind.
One semester of business ethics at my state university did not provide a single paragraphs worth of wisdom that was offered by this man's lecture. What an amazing presentation.
Probably because there isnt too much ethics in doing business. Examples abound of that as an oximoron.
@@rafffa26 it was held in the humanities department by one of the philosophy professors
Never have I ever felt and been in peace after a lecture. I dont know but Prof Kreeft's peaceful and spiritual energy just transcended through this youtube barrier and put me in this zen mood---- grateful for his existence. He makes it easy.
“Advertising is the world’s oldest profession. It was invented in the Garden of Eden by Machiavelli’s father.” 😂 Fantastic lecture, Doctor. Thank you! ❤
Advertise against men's true purpose, using any means necessary but most importantly men's weakness WOMEN'S lol
can you elaborate that--- I could not understand.
So savage
Peter Kreeft is a treasure for the whole world
What an inspiring scholar and philosopher! I wish I had had the chance to study with Prof. Kreeft in my youth. Thank you for posting these wonderful lectures. You bring both clarity and comfort to corners you cannot possibly imagine. 💝
I’m also in awe of these lectures. When Dr Kreeft makes profound comparison between these philosophers and with the injection of Christ, it illuminated our understanding further. Thank you Dr Kreeft 🙏🏼
I love these lectures man Dr. Kreeft is just amazing, God bless him, you can feel his true love for philosophy
I like his talks but am wary of his outlook .
@@trentw.3566 Approved. His outlook is extremely culturally limited.
@@cinikcynic3087 One might say it's exuberantly delusive, wonderful that he gets such energy from it, but we are supposed to be grappling with the truth and not evading it.
Very intellectually stimulating. Dr Kreeft can convey complex topics in very a understandable and engaging way.
I find it amazing how people can be very successful and happy with no knowledge of philosophy. I do believe philosophy would help everyone. It should be taught in public schools . It would need to be worded and simplified at grade school level.
About 5 years ago i was stating that philosophy was more important than science to my friend’s quizzical looks.
Happy to see it getting some traction. Lord knows we need some wisdom.
Love his description of the Logos. Another stellar lecture!!!
The word LOGOS, it's albanian or illyrian or pelasgian it's the same.
Log, it is called the place where men gathered for assembly, for discussion, even today in the Albanian mountains in the north it has remained as a tradition, everyone can study this now. I say this because I am also a former student of Political Science, and we discussed it with the professors. Without knowing the Albanian language, no foreigner here understands, we Albanians are the living heirs of the old Greeks or more precisely of the Pelasgians. Old Greek is Albanian, or today's Albanian is a descendant of Pelasgian, while today's Greek has nothing to do with the Greek of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:28 📜 Plato's philosophy is foundational; he asked significant questions and provided classic answers.
01:23 📚 Plato's dialogues are engaging and psychologically profound, teaching self-knowledge and logical reasoning.
02:32 🏛️ "The Republic" is a profound work covering justice, ethics, politics, human nature, and metaphysics.
03:42 📚 Plato's writings, including "The Republic," can have transformative impacts on readers' lives.
05:47 🌍 Comparing Plato's "The Republic" and Machiavelli's "The Prince" is like comparing different worlds.
07:55 🧠 Plato's anthropology explains the three powers of the soul: reason, spirited will, and desires.
09:23 🏛️ Plato's just state has three classes: rulers with wisdom, enforcers with courage, and abiders with moderation.
11:03 🎓 Plato's Academy established liberal arts education that aimed for knowledge and not just career success.
12:26 👑 Plato favored aristocracy by the wise, while Machiavelli introduced practical political pragmatism.
14:21 🌌 Plato's theory of Forms (Ideas) asserts objective realities as standards, impacting ethics, epistemology, and metaphysics.
16:56 🕊️ The divine presence and Christ's wisdom resonate within Plato's metaphysical framework.
18:45 🌍 The stark contrast between Plato's "The Republic" and Machiavelli's "The Prince" defines their philosophical approaches.
21:13 👥 Machiavelli's political philosophy disregards innate moral virtue, emphasizing power, materialism, and nominalism.
23:48 📜 Machiavelli's focus on practical success over ethics marked the foundation of modern political philosophy.
25:14 🏆 Unlike Plato, Machiavelli considers success as the criterion for goodness and morality in societies.
26:53 🌐 Machiavelli's principles apply to both individual rulers and broader political entities, impacting democracy as well.
27:20 📜 Machiavelli's concept of success is based on efficient causality and force, not moral ideals or final causality.
28:02 💡 Machiavelli's image of success involves conquering fortune through force, similar to Francis Bacon's idea of man's conquest of nature.
29:11 🌍 Machiavelli and Bacon use strikingly similar images of hitting and beating in their descriptions of achieving success through applied science and force.
30:06 🤔 Modern philosophy has moved away from final and formal causes, focusing on material and efficient causes due to their compatibility with science.
31:16 🎭 Machiavelli contrasts Plato's idealism by emphasizing practicality and reality in political philosophy.
32:11 🌟 Machiavelli's principle of foresight and mental power over physical power is consistent with ancient wisdom found in other traditions.
33:47 💔 Machiavelli's argument that it's better to be feared than loved is based on the idea of controlling fear as opposed to relying on unpredictable love.
34:56 🎭 Machiavelli advises rulers to prioritize appearances over reality, highlighting the importance of controlled perception.
35:39 💡 Machiavelli's cynicism about ruling and virtue contrasts with Plato's emphasis on wisdom and virtue.
36:47 🕊️ Plato's wisdom and virtue are exemplified by Socrates, whose legacy transcends death, while Machiavelli's examples of success ended in misery.
37:31 🌓 Plato's realism encompasses both good and evil, while Machiavelli's philosophy lacks the full understanding of human nature.
38:14 📚 Plato's notion that goodness triumphs over evil resonates in works like "The Lord of the Rings," highlighting the profitability of righteousness.
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💎 ❤
Please WORD ON FIRE drop the background music. Dr. Kreeft's lectures are not Poetry lessons. Or at least keep merely the waterfall sound but pls do eliminate the lullaby music. Thank you.
God bless you n Dr. Kreeft!!
As someone who is finally dipping their toe into philosophy, these lectures are a fascinating well to dive into 🥰
Excellent lecture series. One obstacle for enjoyment is the constant loop of water and birds in the background. To establish a tone of tranquility, it would suffice for it to be noticed at the beginning and then faded out shortly thereafter. When I concentrate and my hearing opens up, the birds and water clash at times with Keeft's words making them like noise and throwing me out of a student's meditative state for learning. Please remove this background noise or at the very least, do not include it with following lecture productions. Classrooms don't have artificial water and bird noises for a reason. :)
It's as though they are trying so hard to attract listeners. Such is not the way though! These lectures will catch fire on its own without these backround music.
I like those sounds and I demand that they leave them and continue using them!! 😂 Hmm who will they listen to. You or me? Quite the dilemma.
@@flipgsp 😂not really
@@flipgspLOL I love the bg sound too 😂
My deepest appreciation to you Dr. Kreeft
30:17 I like the comparison of Machiavelli's push from behind and below to Plato's pull from the Logos. One thing, though: The push from behind must come from the past/is backward-looking. In Machiavelli's view, we move forward not because we are attracted by the Good, but because we are harried by either our betters or our own notions and harrying of other men. He thinks the forward-looking pull to the Logos is imaginary. Well, of course it is: All the future for man is imagined. Every goal we have is imagined in the future, it must be: The past is lost to those of us not equipped with time machines. All the past can do for us, then, is give us examples and peel away that which does not work. A Good in the past can only serve as a forward-looking model for what we imagine will be the outcomes of our own actions in the present. Thus, I find Machiavelli's view both true and superfluous. Man is always making decisions based on what he believes to be the Good, we are pulled in its direction because we cannot be "pushed" from an utterly impotent and inaccessible past. All our pondering of the Good within the past, all our job experience, can only model for us what our future might be if we perform a given action in the present (The present being the only place anyone can do anything). We are powerless to use it otherwise.
If the world and man's place in it is compared to a man in a boat, drifting down a river toward a waterfall, then Machiavelli proposes that man's focus ought to be on preparing the boat as well as possible for the conditions of the water based on his experience of the various twists and bends up the river behind him. Plato, on the other hand, asks whether the direction of the river is good for the man at all, and understands that rivers might be crossed (no pun intended) as well as traversed.
Hell is what pushes us from behind. Christians believe that Satan is the prince of this world, and this gives him power over it. But it also ties him to it. The Logos stands across time, it is the model for those in any present, as that is the only place we can ever find ourselves. And because this Good exists in the future as well, as it will for all time, as perfect now as it was a billion years ago, it is the only thing that could possibly be within our reach.
BRAVO my wise man. Enjoyed your presentation.
So brilliant !!! I am so much richer for hearing Dr Kreefts' lecture.
Bravo! Will be watching more! Thank you for the fantastically clear explanation.
I was drawn to his writings at seminary. Now I remember why - brilliant, humbling.
This teaching is helping me to understand more of myself thankyou
I enjoyed this presentation ❤ Thank you!
Priceless lecture, clear, concise, touching. Thank you so much professor Kreeft
These are great lectures, thank you
This was brilliant. Thank you 🙏
Thank you for this!
These kinds of videos here in the chanell is like water to my parched throat.
Thanks for sharing this 😘 have a great rest of the day
This was an excellent lecture. Dr. Kreeft is really engaging.
This idea of doing a “vs” is super interesting too, I’ve never seen it done that way.
Thank you for this❤
Really appreciate this video.
Fantastic presentation
Thankyou for this presentation.
I love Dr. Kreeft lectures. {What does a profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffer the lost of his own soul}
Very engaging consideration - thank you
Truly stimulation I wish I heard this during undergrad, thank you for sharing
Excellence in Presentation, to understand one, it must be clearly contrasted with another. Just as the brilliance of a bright color stands out most against a dark background.
These lectures are making me question why we don't teach philosophy in high school
It's not so much WHAT is being taught, but HOW it is being taught. I'm so glad that I didn't study philosophy in school, but studied it on my own. For, an advanced soul has his ear open to the Source, and learns that which young souls don't understand and cannot teach properly. This particular lecturer (Dr. Kreeft) is an advanced soul, and he understands. And I'm the prophesied return of the biblical prophet Elijah. (I correspond only through my contact page.)
@@tomrhodes1629 agreed. I was the same as you. Glad i learned on my own.
Excellent, Brilliant , Fantanstic ❤❤
I would absolutely love to see Peter kreeft have a conversation with John vervake!
Thanks for the beautiful reading 🩷💭🗨️🩵🌠
thank you so much!!
Thank you Dr. Kreeft 🙏
Huh?
what a Masterpiece 🔥🔥🔥
Interesting knowledge to end one evening.
Thank you 🙏
Lol that emmerson quote. “Plato IS the platonic ideal of philosophy” :^)
The most illuminating thing that the professor said was in calling attention to the titles of the major works of the two philosophers: the republic, which is addressed to all, and the prince, which is addressed only to the tyrant.
Very interesting , great voice and rythm too. :)
The content of these lectures is excellent and Prof. Kreeft is a wonderful explicator of that content. But, for the love of God, get rid of the music and running water in the background. Those sounds are annoying, unnecessary and highly distracting. WoF usually has such estimable production values that I confess I'm a bit disappointed at these audio foibles. The water sounds like a broken toilet, and it might induce an unfortunate urge to micturate in some listeners.
Absolutely 'The Prince' by Niccolo Machiavelli and its influence on political philosophy have had a significant impact on human society throughout history.
Thank you Jesus
I've always thought of justice in the Greek Sense. I never once thought of it as only a system of awards and punishments.
It is extremely dense!! Kreeft is a sheer genius unlike most of his listeners like myself. He should delude the mixture a bit and follow one clear path. Explaining different philosophers and on top of that finding connections to Christianity results in extremely complex text which, IMHO, no layman without knowing basics of philosophy and Christianity can fully enjoy.
I like the background ❤
ڀاءُ شھريار علي! صفا اصل ھيانء جي پاڙن ۾ ھٿ وجھو پيا ماڻھن جي........❤❤❤
سدائين آباد رھو شال
Jesuit in Carmichael CA. The older I become the more I wish I listened. A way of life...
And look how well that all worked out!!!👿👿👿
Waooo what a speech
Is there a lecture about the Trinity? I will filter through the videos
This is interesting
In Genesis 2:17, “you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil”, but Dr Kreeft said we must have knowledge of the good through moral reasoning. Is there a contradiction there?
Hallelujah
22:31 Define state though, whether the state is natural or artificial in nature depends on what we mean by the state.
It would be great to see a rap battle between Machiavelli and Confucius.
The first Academy was in Africa… also a very popular Greek intellectual spent 12 years in Africa to learn lol he stayed at Carthage.
I loved this...
so. much.
Here's another example of these two viewpoints; Sith vs. Jedi. We all know which is which.
These are excellent lectures. The only downside is the water and music in the background - a bit distracting and sometimes hard to hear the presentation. Otherwise these are quite beneficial
That's exactly my thought. Haha i'm not alone :))
I love the water and music and Kreeft's bald head shining in a mystical light.
P}
I love it and it's not distracting to me at all. Not a downside for me at all. 😂 What was the point of your comment. Did you want them to immediately say oh no some lady named Deborah doesn't like it. We must re release them without the sounds. Can't have have Deborah unhappy. The world revolves around her opinions. We must not let her down. 😂
I feel like some of the comments made here about Machiavelli fail to take the Discourses into account and therefore don't adequately represent his views. For example, Machiavelli wrote a book called the Prince, true, but like Plato he also wrote a book called the Discourses which focuses on Republics, amd is substantially longer than the Prince. So to imply Machiavelli was unconcerned about res publica is unfair.
I gotta be honest…when I saw the format, I was thinking…🤔 ummm, I guess I’ll give it 5 minutes.
This was BROAD,
This was POINTED,
This was INTERESTING,
AND the speaker, format, and substance KEEPS your ATTENTION! 😀
THIS WAS AWESOME!
Strips down and BOTTOM LINES the TWO OPPOSING IDEOLOGIES or ways of observing human action/interaction.
Superb - but almost ruined by the unnecessary background sound effects
Somebody commented here the notion of Logos, un itself, is different to what the Greeks thought about it.
Here is my answer:
In some respect what you said is true. But the real difference is only the difference between WHAT and WHO Logos is. While the Greeks investigated and come close to understand the former, the Hebrew--particularly the New Testament writers especially St. John the Evengelist--knew Logos interms of the latter, the WHO part. So what the Greeks speculated, the New Testament believers affirmed. This is why reason and faith go hand in hand like two longing lovers. The unity of the two is what gives meaning and life. It's the unity of truth and love. And philosophically it's the unity of essence and existence. It's this unity that God shared in a límited way to Greeks i.e. His essence without revealing Who He is until He revealed Himself to Jews in the fullness of time. This is why Christianity, most particularly Catholicism, is the only true religión for it reveals this unique mystery.
God bless you!!
In Machiavelli's defense he probably ment the prince to be interpreted ironically or satiricaly as a way to highlight the disadvantages of monarchy as he actually favored republicanism.
Znakomity wywiad o poziom przygotowania pana redaktora zadającego pytanie prof Nowak ponownie pokazuje że jest jednym z niewielu erudytów którzy pozostali na świecie
Machiavelli was in Florence at a time when Italy wasn't a unique entity. There were small kingdoms, and there were wars between them and within them. It is in this environment that in 1315, he wrote The Prince. For that purpose, he has read thinkers of that time. The central question he intended to address is what unites a nation?
Of course, Machiavel has been misinterpreted by the apostles of dictatorship.
Not even Machiavelli's great great grandfather was born in 1315.
And no, he has not been misread. If you condone tyranny for a cause you perceive good, then you cannot deny others to do the same, even if their good is just selfish (and they are not the worst set of tyrants). And "uniting the nation" is such a shallow goal.
@st r Indeed. It was a mistake. The Prince is 1513 and not 1315.
This deserves a good discussion or debate. Cant say Plato's take is right and Machiavelli's take is wrong or vice versa. To me its only a matter of how and when to utilise either. Sometimes a Plato has to become a Machiavelli dethrone a wicked ruler. And shouldnt remain a Machiavelli after the deed is done. Machiavelli advised that in his book 'The Prince'. This is not a simple 'Plato is right and Machivelli is wrong' type of judgement.
A video on my two favourite people ?
holy shit that was intense
Or those Incapable of grasping what is always able to be available for anyone so interested in someone or something other than SELF.
There is a way of reading Plato's Republic that makes him sound Machiavellian. I have never heard an instructor explicitly explore the possibility of reading between the lines of Plato's conception of the Guardian Class as a warning for the rest of us regarding them. That we must give the thumotic lanes in which they can compete and feel as though they are being honored, and even then it is never enough, but if you make them believe they are "on top", you keep them out of everyone else's business. They cannot help but to destroy any society they don't feel they control. Look at Peter Thiel, say. Just can't stop trying to live out a super self-flattering narrative, just can't be happy to live his own life, must always plot how to have more control over other people. Can't stop. This is not a new problem.
Great presentation, so you'll probably dislike me for the following, but I'd just like to point out, without discussing whether Plato or Machiavelli are in fact good or evil, that at 25:00 when mentioning Mother Theresa, I'd say that Mother Therese had, as far as I know, closer to Machiavelli than to Plato. That's not a criticism of Dr. Kreeft's presentation, or of Mother Theresa, as it's obvious Mother Theresa reached her aims - whether with god's help or by exploiting human nature is to decide up to everyone.
Socrates Plato Aristotle. It's all there people
Kreeft Machiavelli 'N'.... Socracheez is the best I could do
Plato vs Machiavelli? Methinks you err in these determinations, however when you find “The Christ” in there too I see absolute genius. Keep up the good work.
Isn’t the 48 laws of power not just extracts of Machiavelli’s philosophy then?
Skip to 20:35 for our Daddy Machiavelli. But seriously, people need to stop fixating on "The Prince." "Discorsi" is superior!
Thus he takes
the responsibility voluntarily, overcoming the lower rationality.
Machiavelli was a political realist. Plato was an idealist.
Machiavellian followers are the reason we are where we are in our world. Fundamentally evil rules.
Bold claim.
@@TheSublimeLifestyle But true. Plato was a reactionary, he hated democracy and advocated for a “philosopher king” which is totally unrealistic. Plato - and his mentor, Socrates - had contempt for the people. He was an aristocrat.
I don't think Machiavelli denied Logos. I think he's one of the few philosophers in history who knew it so basically, and so intrinsically. You find in DIscourses on Livy Machiavelli proving God exists, and ruminating on the hand of providence.
I think Machiavelli is a misunderstood author. He wasn't advocating cruelty, but was advocating pragmatic state craft. I think Machiavelli would understand the wisdom of Plato, and would never want citizens, other than the prince, to be acting like that. The Prince, Machiavelli would argue, has a different social role than the citizen. But, in a democracy, Machiavelli alludes to the fact that it's good when the two classes are fighting among one another.
Like, Machiavelli is very pragmatic, yes, but he did believe in God---knew God exists, is more the word, there, as he's one of only a few people in history who could say that---but his philosophy is about doing what's necessary to create stability, and not have complete disorder. There is a precedent, even in the Bible, of leaders using pragmatic methods over idealized methods. Even King David himself. Even Christ at the end, comes with a sword. I don't think Machiavelli is an opposite of Plato, but rather compliments Plato where Plato lacks. Just like Plato compliments Machiavelli, where Machiavelli lacks. One necessarily is true in peace, while the other is necessary in war or civil disorder.
I always saw Machiavelli advocating for pragmatism in a leader, and recognizing a leader needs to make peace with the fact he need to perform acts of "necessary cruelty." Things that aren't nice but need to be done for the sake of the state
He was speaking against the very overly idealized moralistic views of how leaders and politicians need to conduct themselves that were prevalent at his time. He was trying to be the one saying "yeah those ideas are nice, but we live in the real world."
@@nickchavez720 I don't think so. I think the real world needs to be governed by the Laws of Plato. I think in the introduction of the Prince, Machiavelli makes exception for his role.
Like, you and I are not Princes, (Or at the very least I'm not) nor ought we (I) behave like such. Machiavelli would understand that doing so, would create chaos, and pull apart the bands of civilization.
A Prince is in such a position, that he doesn't live in the real world. He lives in a constant state of angst and anomie, and certainly lives in an artificial bubble. In no way, should the pragmatism of a Prince and the necessary duties, be expected from the people. I think Machiavelli explicitly states that, somewhere in his treatise.
@@nickchavez720 But, still, a Prince needs to understand equity. In either case, they have to be benevolent toward their people, and make sure the rule of law presides over their country.
Light and darkness are NOT compliments. CHOOSE one or the other. And Light shows you that the darkness is an illusion, for the darkness (of Machiavelli) disappears in the Light of Truth - as shone by Jesus Christ, one of whose forerunners was Socrates. I'm the prophesied return of the biblical prophet Elijah, and I correspond only through my contact page.
@@tomrhodes1629 Why is Machiavelli dark? He probably knew God exists better than you do. He was also exiled, and lived the latter portion of his life in poverty. He wanted the region to be stabilized, and for the violence and war to end.
So, if you were a prophet, you'd know that
Jesus says through the Apostle Paul, "5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)"
And you judge Machiavelli, which by all my study of him, showed him to be an upright man. Let the LORD judge.
What about Marcus Aurelius vs Machiavelli or Kant vs Machiavelli…😳😳😳🧮⚖️✨
Word.
I am starting to see the contrast between “right” and “the right side of history”.
To my knowledge though, Machiavelli was a republican through and through. He wrote The Prince as a cut through, no bullshit guide on how to maintain power as a ruler, and it was more of a job application to the Medici.
He didn’t want to live under such a prince though.
Am i wrong?
It is rue that Mciavelli was a republican. Yet he longed to serve the state again. And so he was obviously keen to serve even the Medici family who had him tortured for alleged conspiracy.
So prince is an English translation of an Italian word which means something to Principle: as in the Principle of a State or Executive of State. A very formal way of saying the head of state. So this is meant for anyone who happens to be leader, be they a prince or otherwise.
@@nickchavez720 Il Principe doesn't mean "Principle" at all. It means, just as the English word "Prince", the first in a community, a ruler, leader. Machiavelli's Prince is not compatible with a free republic.
@themirrorflattersnot No, you're not wrong.
It will help if you read Discourses on Livy. Machiavelli was a republican through and through. The Prince has been characterized improperly for years and I have no other explanation than people want to use it as a treatise for their own power grab.
❤
Actually, it is a series of footnotes to Socrates, as well as owing something of a debt to the ancient philosophies of India and China.
Plato changed my life. How? Before, I read to absorb. Plato I absorbed, but then I found myself questioning even him, in just the same way Socrates questioned things. It had a transformative effect on my actual brain, gave me a sense of autonomy I thought I had before but only realized had been absent upon receiving it in actuality. It was Jesus who later gave me back my sense of agency, but only after the work of the Father, which involved the use of Plato.
Someone out there will understand this..
Plato is almost a philosophical John the Baptist who prepares the way. The logos of reason preparing the way for the logos of revelation. Thanks for sharing your experience and insight.
Follow religion and be the lamb. Turn to philosophy and be the lion.
Discard the Hebrew scrolls into the fiery pit and hold forth the crown of wisdom.
Take the owl’s nest upon your head and study philosophy.
Netanyahu Cleary read Machiavelli and Bacon - as did most of our western leaders. Striking beating and overpowering- very sad 😢
Plato and Kabbalah sound very similar in their pointing to certain immutable attributes in our logos that exist in transcendent state higher than man rooted in God.