"It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." -- Billy Graham
Billy himself I believe involved himself in politics more than he should have later in life. Just stick with preaching the gospel and warn people not to mix partisan politics with it.
@@duanemiller6678 How dies that work, tho? The gvmnt provides services based on right or wrong. Is it right for immigrants to find refuge in our land? Is it right to wear seatbelts & impose speed limits? Politics is grounded in ethics/morality. Everyone, incldg you, votes based on what he/she is best. I'm not a Maga. Trump gives me hives. And I'm aware of all the fakers, & pure abhorrent & blasphemy from many who call themselves Christian. (Those prosperity preachers& the "prophets" ESPECIALLY drive me up a wall). I don't follow a donkey nor an elephant; I follow a LAMB. That said; which of the commandments, the golden rule, etc., do you believe should not be also be law of the land? Even if one doesn't believe God exists, I cannot fathom any argument, but I'm open to your thoughts (as long as you don't attack me, of course). I won't argue with you. I won't even respond. I'm genuinely just curious about where some ppl think God got it wrong.
I appreciate this conversation so much. Most of my closest friends are very heavily influenced by fearful apocalyptic type churches now that are also very political and very pro Trump. It has made me feel very misunderstood and alone. It’s so nice to listen to other believers with thoughtful and intelligent conversation about this. When I do talk to my friends them about it, it falls on deaf ears. I was in that type of movement and thinking for much of my adult life but when I saw the embrace of Trump within the American Church, something broke inside of me and I started asking questions. A part of me thinks I just should not engage in those issues and just allow the Holy Spirit to work in their hearts and minds. It’s so hard to know how to navigate these relationships.
Another good discussion. However, I disagree with the sweeping generalizations about crisis pregnancy workers. My experience is limited and anecdotal, but from what I have seen, the goal is to prevent an abortion by any means necessary, including manipulation, harassment, and something that resembles illegal detention. Tim, I think this would be a good topic for some investigative journalism and possible published piece.
at this time, a mother whos baby will die at birth went to court to get permission. she recieved that permission. yet the state supreme court stayed it, and the attorney general promised to charge her husband and doctors. tell me again that this is about life. tell me again this is about god.
While it doesn't overtly come from the pulpit in my church, there is an overwhelming insinuation of politics in my (former?) church. The vast majority of people at my church are good people, but their political views kept slipping into our Sunday School conversations. There were open Covid-deniers and anti-maskers. There were people who jumped on board with Mike Lindell and his false election claims. I have little doubt that 75% plus percentage of them voted for and will vote for Trump again, making excuses for him or falling his ruse that he is a Christian. In the past, I could live alongside with Christian conservatives, but it seems that equation has switched. Now, they are Conservative-Christians, who let their worldview be lead by their politics and not by their faith. For so long, I went with Romans 12:18, which states, “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” Then it got to be too much. I feared my silence equaled assent and I couldn't live with it. So, I left that church. I know there is a great concern about the decline in people coming into the Christian faith, and people inside the church are concerned and upset about it. They say it is the result of the "evil" world, but they refuse to look at their actions and hypocrisy as a reason why so many young people don't come to Christ. In my limited conversations on this topic with fellow churchgoers, they tend to disregard the idea that their actions are the reason for the decline in those coming to faith and it makes me sad.
Unfortunately some in the Evangelical church use worship as a platform for outreach rather than worship, all to be “relevant.” Since when is the worship of God to be relevant!? Fortunately, a traditional liturgy sets up guardrails for worship. We don’t make worship in our image but is derived from Scripture and the understanding of the historic church.
What is the connection between all of this to the teaching concerning the 7 mountains of influence? From someone who once believed this and then understood it was a deception, it gave christians a false ‘revelatory’ justification to radicalise around the sphere they felt called to. But then, because all of those depend upon government policies, it narrowed down to radicalising around one, politics. Becoming christlike and radical in service to Him and the gospel is a far harder journey to undertake. To radicalise around politics does not require you to change your inner heart and outward conduct. Just shout louder, become more aggressive, more divisive and divided, the opposite of Jesus.
Mark 8:15 Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.” This is the age old Religious Spirit and Political Spirit ... Neither of which bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You shall know a tree by its fruit... Anyone?
Politicians will not let Roe be the end of their putting more and more culture issues out in the public arena that has to be addressed, the next I think will be gay rights, these culture wars has been the cash cow for them to ever stop finding grievances to raise money and getting votes.
What gay rights do the Republicans want to stifle? Do you really think they'll try to bring back the Sodomy Laws? Or try to keep gays from marrying? I don't see that. I think they might want the gays to not do sex acts in public but that's about it.
@@2wheelz3504 Let's clime down from our pedestal for just a bit, in reference to the political world it is not to be confused with a persons personal faith because one must realise politicians will drop their moral facade for votes any day, let voters turn against an anti abortion stance, and you will see a complete reversal on the subject of abortion, if it means holding on to their power, and you should hold on to what the Bible says to you, but the political world is anchored in this kingdom, and not the one to come.
I kind of like my pedestal. Christians are to influence the culture and part of the culture is the political world when that world steps into the moral world. @@ella5319
@@2wheelz3504mind your business. Leave the rest of us alone. I’m not a member of he LGBT community, but y’all need to stop persecuting them. It’s gross.
What about Romans 13:1? How is it Christian or American to disobey the government? We hippies of the ‘60’s felt MLK’s nonviolent civil disobedience, and going to jail as a consequence, was okay-but just “ for the sake of it disobedience?”
The “politics” of talking about anything right leaning as possibly dangerous, and anything left leaning as “just having a conversation” is what is ruining the church. That’s Moore’s MO, and that’s the current big problem
The end of Roe v Wade may be both a victory lap for Trump’s last term…and a rallying cry for his re-election. …one of a growing number of rallying cries for his re-election.
People are drawn to political issues. It's a great way to get people into the Church! It's something that people can see where Jesus can actually make a difference! It's a GOOD thing!
@@ezbody The Evangelical churches where politics is popular are growing while the mainstream old school liberal churches which tend not to be so political are the ones that are drastically losing members.
I guess it depends on why you are a Christian.....is it because of Jesus Christ (eg. Sermon on the Mount) committment to living His values, OR living for 'winning popularity/politically/phyical bodies in a church!
Why would we want to hand back more of our sick culture to people in the the church? Our very liturgical church ( only a couple of years old and in North Idaho, of all places) is growing by leaps and bounds, because we adhere to an historical liturgy and tradition that has been shaped by the church down through the centuries outside of culture, preferences, felt need of the moment, and has focused on the triune God, the saving story of God throughout history. Why would we give up that richness and tradition of the historic for current politics?? No way!
@@ezbody Our church is full of those who have fled the toxicity of some of their evangelical churches and refer to themselves as “recovering evangelicals”. I grew up in the evangelical church, and I’m grateful for what I learned there but I’ve moved into a liturgical sacramental church in the last 10 years. it has been a deeper conversion for both me and my husband, a pastor in evangelical churches and now a priest in the Anglican Church.
Yes, they have disregarded the Gospel, and traded for power. Our Lord kneeled to wash the feet of His disciples to teach them humility, something modern Christians dosen't have today.
I found this episode because I was digging around online wondering what Tim Alberta was writing about to in recent months. And, in recent years, I have come to know a bit about Russell Moore and I will note that I am an atheist African American woman who appreciates Russell Moore very much. His courage and decency gives me a glimmer of hope.
😢😢😢thank you for sharing so honestly. I am sorry you don't believe the gospel. That word means "good news"" because it is the news that there is a God, and he is both transcendent and personal, but even more hopeful is that his essence, exactly who he is consists of perfect love. I am old, but the older I get the more certain my hope is because of who Jesus is and what he did. If he could come down here in this messy, dark place where broken humanity finds all sorts of ways to hurt itself and one another and bring light, healing and hope, then it will be okay if we trust and believe. I have never met an atheist before who wasn't deeply wounded by the brokenness in this world. I once had a student who was an atheist. She was from another country. There she had been date raped and afterwards stalked by this man. She finally came to understand that God hated what had happened to her and that Jesus wanted to heal her broken heart. Her like now, after some 25 years, is very different and very good. Thanks for reading this and thanks for sharing your heart so honestly.
I disagree that the "end times" expectation currently a fever in Evangelical churches is not about Jesus. In fact, it's very much about the Jesus of contemporary, religiously ignorant Christians. They envision a sort of "collaborative eschatology" where Jesus will burst through the clouds and establish his reign if they will just do their part to create mayhem in staving off the evils of democrats. I live in the middle of this madness and have for decades.
What is intriguing to me is the fictional series Christian's have held to, as if fact, speak of an anti-Christ but if I recall it is someone the church follows after and are fooled by in large part. Sound familiar?
Haven't read the book, but I hope Alberta and like say what they know: it all revolves around Dispensationalism, and the (political) powers around it. Protestants should talk about Dispensationalists like they talk about Catholics.
I work as a respiratory therapist and was watching people die on a daily basis. The conspiracy theories that were being shared and believed by the far right led to an increased death rate among that group. I had Christian friends who didn’t believe in the pandemic, they believed there was a chip in the vaccine. They still believe that the risks from the vaccine were worse than that of the disease. They believed that horse wormer was more effective than the treatments that were shown to be effective by double blind studies. I could go on.
In the Crisis Pregnancy Centers, are they pro-the-abundant life of the pregnant woman? And also, just curious, are they, like us Episcopalians and Roman Catholics, against the death penalty as alsopro-life?
Great interview, it's both discouraging when you see where things are going, but it is incredibly inspiring to see people I've admired and respected my entire adult life standing up against the darknesa of peer pressure we see around people who claim to share the same political ideology and spiritual values. Between the two Moores (Beth and Russell), Andy Stanley, and David French, i am grateful to know people like me have leaders we can turn to for advice amd guidance.
Civic organizations' membership is declining also. People just aren't joining formal groups in the numbers they once did-- perhaps one of the reasons we as a culture are experiencing painful loneliness.
So glad I found this podcast. People could learn so so much from these gentlemen if they only took the time to listen and then cared enough to see how important it is to be deeply concerned.
Tim is absolutely right to worry the implications of that, and he should worry first about people like Russel Moore for making this such a “hard” issue to deal with.
Russell Moore unbiblical uses the bible to hide because he is a coward . Keeping politics out of the Church is not biblical. Moore shouldn't even consider himself a Christian. How he has strayed from what's important to the heart of God. Shame on you for not standing up for the most vulnerable. It is sad, if people you never thought would be speaking at your funeral then that says how much you have strayed . I'd hate to be you and stand before God. We should be political. The church should speak loud on ethical issues. You have this so so wrong and the implications of that causes many yo lose their life, namely the unborn.
"It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." -- Billy Graham
Sadly, that wisdom did not reach the next generation of Grahams...jt
Billy himself I believe involved himself in politics more than he should have later in life. Just stick with preaching the gospel and warn people not to mix partisan politics with it.
@@duanemiller6678 How dies that work, tho? The gvmnt provides services based on right or wrong. Is it right for immigrants to find refuge in our land? Is it right to wear seatbelts & impose speed limits? Politics is grounded in ethics/morality. Everyone, incldg you, votes based on what he/she is best.
I'm not a Maga. Trump gives me hives. And I'm aware of all the fakers, & pure abhorrent & blasphemy from many who call themselves Christian.
(Those prosperity preachers& the "prophets" ESPECIALLY drive me up a wall).
I don't follow a donkey nor an elephant; I follow a LAMB.
That said; which of the commandments, the golden rule, etc., do you believe should not be also be law of the land?
Even if one doesn't believe God exists, I cannot fathom any argument, but I'm open to your thoughts (as long as you don't attack me, of course).
I won't argue with you. I won't even respond. I'm genuinely just curious about where some ppl think God got it wrong.
Wow, what a great quote.
Sadly what we all feared happened but from the left and the government.
I appreciate this conversation so much. Most of my closest friends are very heavily influenced by fearful apocalyptic type churches now that are also very political and very pro Trump. It has made me feel very misunderstood and alone. It’s so nice to listen to other believers with thoughtful and intelligent conversation about this. When I do talk to my friends them about it, it falls on deaf ears. I was in that type of movement and thinking for much of my adult life but when I saw the embrace of Trump within the American Church, something broke inside of me and I started asking questions. A part of me thinks I just should not engage in those issues and just allow the Holy Spirit to work in their hearts and minds. It’s so hard to know how to navigate these relationships.
Agreed. Most of my family are pro-Trump and have been influenced by the far-right conspiracy theories. It’s a lonely place to be.
I am a fan of Dr. Russell Moore. Glad to see he has a podcast.
Another good discussion. However, I disagree with the sweeping generalizations about crisis pregnancy workers. My experience is limited and anecdotal, but from what I have seen, the goal is to prevent an abortion by any means necessary, including manipulation, harassment, and something that resembles illegal detention. Tim, I think this would be a good topic for some investigative journalism and possible published piece.
at this time, a mother whos baby will die at birth went to court to get permission. she recieved that permission. yet the state supreme court stayed it, and the attorney general promised to charge her husband and doctors. tell me again that this is about life. tell me again this is about god.
While it doesn't overtly come from the pulpit in my church, there is an overwhelming insinuation of politics in my (former?) church. The vast majority of people at my church are good people, but their political views kept slipping into our Sunday School conversations. There were open Covid-deniers and anti-maskers. There were people who jumped on board with Mike Lindell and his false election claims. I have little doubt that 75% plus percentage of them voted for and will vote for Trump again, making excuses for him or falling his ruse that he is a Christian.
In the past, I could live alongside with Christian conservatives, but it seems that equation has switched. Now, they are Conservative-Christians, who let their worldview be lead by their politics and not by their faith. For so long, I went with Romans 12:18, which states, “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” Then it got to be too much. I feared my silence equaled assent and I couldn't live with it. So, I left that church.
I know there is a great concern about the decline in people coming into the Christian faith, and people inside the church are concerned and upset about it. They say it is the result of the "evil" world, but they refuse to look at their actions and hypocrisy as a reason why so many young people don't come to Christ. In my limited conversations on this topic with fellow churchgoers, they tend to disregard the idea that their actions are the reason for the decline in those coming to faith and it makes me sad.
Unfortunately some in the Evangelical church use worship as a platform for outreach rather than worship, all to be “relevant.” Since when is the worship of God to be relevant!? Fortunately, a traditional liturgy sets up guardrails for worship. We don’t make worship in our image but is derived from Scripture and the understanding of the historic church.
a great time to look into the Anabaptists and Quakers
Unfortunately, many Anabaptist congregations have fallen for these conspiracy theories, hook line and sinker. It’s really sad.
What is the connection between all of this to the teaching concerning the 7 mountains of influence? From someone who once believed this and then understood it was a deception, it gave christians a false ‘revelatory’ justification to radicalise around the sphere they felt called to.
But then, because all of those depend upon government policies, it narrowed down to radicalising around one, politics.
Becoming christlike and radical in service to Him and the gospel is a far harder journey to undertake.
To radicalise around politics does not require you to change your inner heart and outward conduct. Just shout louder, become more aggressive, more divisive and divided, the opposite of Jesus.
I left a megachurch after 43:08 founding pastor brought HIS politics in to pulpit. Politics is a preference, it shouldn't be treated as a gospel
MTG recently divorced is rude in her committee.
the division today is about living out the result from revolution about personal opinion, that everyone's opinion should be valued!
Mark 8:15
Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.” This is the age old Religious Spirit and Political Spirit ... Neither of which bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
You shall know a tree by its fruit... Anyone?
Politicians will not let Roe be the end of their putting more and more culture issues out in the public arena that has to be addressed, the next I think will be gay rights, these culture wars has been the cash cow for them to ever stop finding grievances to raise money and getting votes.
What gay rights do the Republicans want to stifle? Do you really think they'll try to bring back the Sodomy Laws? Or try to keep gays from marrying? I don't see that. I think they might want the gays to not do sex acts in public but that's about it.
Homosexuality and abortion are cultural issues to the ungodly. To believers, they are biblical issues.
@@2wheelz3504 Let's clime down from our pedestal for just a bit, in reference to the political world it is not to be confused with a persons personal faith because one must realise politicians will drop their moral facade for votes any day, let voters turn against an anti abortion stance, and you will see a complete reversal on the subject of abortion, if it means holding on to their power, and you should hold on to what the Bible says to you, but the political world is anchored in this kingdom, and not the one to come.
I kind of like my pedestal. Christians are to influence the culture and part of the culture is the political world when that world steps into the moral world. @@ella5319
@@2wheelz3504mind your business. Leave the rest of us alone. I’m not a member of he LGBT community, but y’all need to stop persecuting them. It’s gross.
I wonder if the real problem is that many Christians have lost confidence in Christ's supremacy over all creation . See Colossians 1 verses 15 to18
What about Romans 13:1? How is it Christian or American to disobey the government? We hippies of the ‘60’s felt MLK’s nonviolent civil disobedience, and going to jail as a consequence, was okay-but just “ for the sake of it disobedience?”
Tim, too late. The church of old has gone bonkers.
The “politics” of talking about anything right leaning as possibly dangerous, and anything left leaning as “just having a conversation” is what is ruining the church. That’s Moore’s MO, and that’s the current big problem
I wish I had found this a year ago.
The end of Roe v Wade may be both a victory lap for Trump’s last term…and a rallying cry for his re-election. …one of a growing number of rallying cries for his re-election.
Oh my goodness, I didn't know Mr. Alberta was from Brighton, totally makes sense lol. I am from the Mt. Pleasant area.
Brighton isn't big, but it's certainly not as small as Ithaca or Shephard lol.
People are drawn to political issues. It's a great way to get people into the Church! It's something that people can see where Jesus can actually make a difference! It's a GOOD thing!
What are you talking about? People are leaving their churches in droves precisely because of toxic, Christ-less politics.
@@ezbody The Evangelical churches where politics is popular are growing while the mainstream old school liberal churches which tend not to be so political are the ones that are drastically losing members.
I guess it depends on why you are a Christian.....is it because of Jesus Christ (eg. Sermon on the Mount) committment to living His values, OR living for 'winning popularity/politically/phyical bodies in a church!
Why would we want to hand back more of our sick culture to people in the the church? Our very liturgical church ( only a couple of years old and in North Idaho, of all places) is growing by leaps and bounds, because we adhere to an historical liturgy and tradition that has been shaped by the church down through the centuries outside of culture, preferences, felt need of the moment, and has focused on the triune God, the saving story of God throughout history. Why would we give up that richness and tradition of the historic for current politics?? No way!
@@ezbody
Our church is full of those who have fled the toxicity of some of their evangelical churches and refer to themselves as “recovering evangelicals”. I grew up in the evangelical church, and I’m grateful for what I learned there but I’ve moved into a liturgical sacramental church in the last 10 years. it has been a deeper conversion for both me and my husband, a pastor in evangelical churches and now a priest in the Anglican Church.
Modern Christianity is the largest obstacle to the gospel
I am worried my family are owned by Satan and his tool😢 $
Yes, they have disregarded the Gospel, and traded for power. Our Lord kneeled to wash the feet of His disciples to teach them humility, something modern Christians dosen't have today.
Love that
no the gospel is the biggest opstacle to modern Christianity
it cannot be taken down
Yes, these guys are exactly that. Tim is in his 30s so hopefully he’ll learn.
I found this episode because I was digging around online wondering what Tim Alberta was writing about to in recent months. And, in recent years, I have come to know a bit about Russell Moore and I will note that I am an atheist African American woman who appreciates Russell Moore very much. His courage and decency gives me a glimmer of hope.
I can see atheists liking Russell!
Lord have mercy, only Believe ( think about the sparrow) ❤
Most Church's in w. central Florida are filled with many Hippocrates, especially the 2 front pews. 😮 ❤
The fact that what Russell Moore says makes you comfortable as an atheist is what I have against his message.
😢😢😢thank you for sharing so honestly. I am sorry you don't believe the gospel. That word means "good news"" because it is the news that there is a God, and he is both transcendent and personal, but even more hopeful is that his essence, exactly who he is consists of perfect love. I am old, but the older I get the more certain my hope is because of who Jesus is and what he did. If he could come down here in this messy, dark place where broken humanity finds all sorts of ways to hurt itself and one another and bring light, healing and hope, then it will be okay if we trust and believe. I have never met an atheist before who wasn't deeply wounded by the brokenness in this world. I once had a student who was an atheist. She was from another country. There she had been date raped and afterwards stalked by this man. She finally came to understand that God hated what had happened to her and that Jesus wanted to heal her broken heart. Her like now, after some 25 years, is very different and very good. Thanks for reading this and thanks for sharing your heart so honestly.
I disagree that the "end times" expectation currently a fever in Evangelical churches is not about Jesus. In fact, it's very much about the Jesus of contemporary, religiously ignorant Christians. They envision a sort of "collaborative eschatology" where Jesus will burst through the clouds and establish his reign if they will just do their part to create mayhem in staving off the evils of democrats. I live in the middle of this madness and have for decades.
What is intriguing to me is the fictional series Christian's have held to, as if fact, speak of an anti-Christ but if I recall it is someone the church follows after and are fooled by in large part. Sound familiar?
@@deloresbread622 It does sound familiar.
THANK YOU FOR THIS GREAT DISCUSSION
Haven't read the book, but I hope Alberta and like say what they know: it all revolves around Dispensationalism, and the (political) powers around it. Protestants should talk about Dispensationalists like they talk about Catholics.
The poison is the laughable belief in an invisible sky fairy.
I would desperately wish to unhear the part about planning the speakers of one's own eulogies.
Dr. Moore, tell us what you mean by the Covid conspiracy? I would love for you to do a show on this now and look retrospectively.
Seeing how the church was the mouthpiece of the government in the COVID messaging along with other items should put the church on notice.
I work as a respiratory therapist and was watching people die on a daily basis. The conspiracy theories that were being shared and believed by the far right led to an increased death rate among that group. I had Christian friends who didn’t believe in the pandemic, they believed there was a chip in the vaccine. They still believe that the risks from the vaccine were worse than that of the disease. They believed that horse wormer was more effective than the treatments that were shown to be effective by double blind studies. I could go on.
@@enrique967 agree
In the Crisis Pregnancy Centers, are they pro-the-abundant life of the pregnant woman? And also, just curious, are they, like us Episcopalians and Roman Catholics, against the death penalty as alsopro-life?
You guys are forgetting that this is about women’s health care needs and should be more thought about BOTH men and women!!
Wonderful-Blessed 🙏
Great interview, it's both discouraging when you see where things are going, but it is incredibly inspiring to see people I've admired and respected my entire adult life standing up against the darknesa of peer pressure we see around people who claim to share the same political ideology and spiritual values. Between the two Moores (Beth and Russell), Andy Stanley, and David French, i am grateful to know people like me have leaders we can turn to for advice amd guidance.
Andy's taking a hit from Evangelicals lately! I can't stand him!
@@joeking433
Is there even anything/anyone that Evangelicals do not hate? 😏
@@ezbody Yeah, Jesus.
@@joeking433 and in that you defy him, and sully his name. you have warped all he stood for, todays american church my as well be hamas.
@@sorejack Nah! You're just a crazy dude.
You mentioned seminaries!! Exactly what has happened in Catholic Church!
Civic organizations' membership is declining also. People just aren't joining formal groups in the numbers they once did-- perhaps one of the reasons we as a culture are experiencing painful loneliness.
So glad I found this podcast. People could learn so so much from these gentlemen if they only took the time to listen and then cared enough to see how important it is to be deeply concerned.
Russell Moore is a true Christian.
Tim is absolutely right to worry the implications of that, and he should worry first about people like Russel Moore for making this such a “hard” issue to deal with.
Hostility is 🎯 the perfect word. Thanks 🙏
Russell Moore unbiblical uses the bible to hide because he is a coward . Keeping politics out of the Church is not biblical. Moore shouldn't even consider himself a Christian. How he has strayed from what's important to the heart of God. Shame on you for not standing up for the most vulnerable. It is sad, if people you never thought would be speaking at your funeral then that says how much you have strayed . I'd hate to be you and stand before God. We should be political. The church should speak loud on ethical issues. You have this so so wrong and the implications of that causes many yo lose their life, namely the unborn.
Politics are the things of this world, friend. "Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil." - Proverbs 4:27
You sound very Gracious and Spiritual.