Madsen M1896 Flaadens Rekylgevær: The First Military Semiauto
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2018
- After losing out in the 1888 trials, Madsen and Rasmussen continued to refine their rifle. They reduced the overall length and weight, and replaced the feeding clip with a more modern enclosed magazine (although it was still gravity fed, without a spring or follower). The mechanism was refined for more reliable functioning, including changing it to more positively control the position of cartridges as they were fed. The Martini-like rear charging lever was replaced with a more modern rotary handle on the right side of the receiver. Still, the basic mechanism remained the same.
This 1896 Madsen-Rasmussen rifle was again considered by the Danish Military, and deemed reliable enough to limited use. A total of 60 rifles were purchased and issued by the Danish Navy for use in defending coastal fortifications. They were never used in anger, but remained in the Danish inventory until 1932.
With the success of the 1896 model’s sale to the Danish Navy, it was time to expand sales internationally. A company was formed in 1898, which would soon become known as the Danish Recoil Rifle Syndicate, and Madsen and Rasmussen sold their patent rights to it in exchange for royalties on future production. By 1899 the company manager was Lieutenant Jens Schouboe, and it is his name found on the subsequent Madsen LMG patents. For this reason, the Madsen is sometimes referred to as the Schouboe rifle.
In 1903, the US military tested one of the 1896 model rifles (which they identified as a Schouboe) chambered for the new US .30-03 cartridge. This appears to have proved too powerful for the rifle as it was built at the time, although further tests were conducted on the gun in 1905, 1906, 1909, and 1911. The final 1911 report on the rifle listed a number of faults. The arm lacked strenght and durability the report concluded: “It is inferior to our service rifle in accuracy, serviceability, and in rapidity, the competition had become very much keener and each invention showed the results of accumulated experience."
I am looking for the full text of any of the testing reports, but have not yet found them. It appears that the US testing board saw better things being developed (they were quite fond of the Bang design, which was in its first tests in 1911) and lost interest in trying to perfect the Madsen rifle.
Many thanks to the Tøjhusmuseet (Royal Danish Armory Museum) for letting me have access to these very rare rifles! Check them out at: en.natmus.dk/museums/the-royal...
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So Madsen made the first military semiauto and the last military bolt-action rifle....50 years apart
i know this is a crazy old comment, but not technically true the mondragon semi auto was designed in 1884 it just wasnt produced till after the madsen
The first? No. The first produced? Yes.
This Madsen is indeed one of the most steampunk/dieselpunk weapons of its kind, second only only to the Modèle 1907 Saint Étienne french heavy machinegun
The toggle lock rifles give it a run for its money.
@@ostiariusalpha That and the gas piston Lee Enfield.
It's so cool that this existed 22 years before the BAR or 21 years before the RSC.
@@greenglassrecycling Your name Nobody?
I get to see this exquisite Danish firearm twice! I'm not complaining.
The Hat is on for reason!
You call that a rifle?
I met ian there while he was filming this =)
You lucky bastard!
That's awesome
Did you teach him how to pronounce "Tøjhusmuseet"?
as a dane im happy to see a firearm from my country on the show
no only the early ones
The guns developed from these Madsen-Rasmussen rifles all have top-mounted magazines, but other Danish arms do not.
Never knew my country was so far ahead regarding gun development. I love these documentaries.
Hearing GJ pronounce "Flådens Rekylgevær" might just be the best thing ever. Love the content, love these obscure rifles I never knew existed.
haha yeah, I was impressed
As a dane, the way you pernounced "madsen" somewhat perfectly scares and amazes me, good on you
Cycling this rifle makes such a satisfying sound!!
Thanks, Ian!! Well done, sir!
Very interesting! The information in the description was just what I was looking for as well. I wondered why such a rifle that was ahead of it's time didn't get more traction world wide and it was answered there! Great
I love top loading small arms, love really early self loaders, and love anything that stays in service a long time: a perfect video for me!
What a fascinating piece of machinery. Great follow up to your Q&A yesterday. As someone with a engineering/mechanical background I never miss a video.
What calibre please
The acoustic's in that place is to die for.
@Beth Schroeder Yeah, it is hard, coming from a native English speaker. English is one of the most convoluted confusing languages out there, mostly because we borrowed words from so many other languages. You also understood them, didn’t you? If you didn’t, that proves my point further.
Wow... that's one of the coolest interesting guns i've ever seen 😲👍
Thanks for showing it to us Ian 🤗
I have very fond, early childhood memories of Tøjhusmuseet. My dad used to take my brother and I there on Saturdays when we were kids. I vividly remember this particular gun. I thought it looked super cool! It still does! 😁 It is many years ago I last visited the museum, but I was a bit disappointed to find that a large part of it wasn't open to the public anymore. They have such wide variety øf weapons there and the history of the place itself is fascinating too. Thanks😊
Incredible for 1896 for sure Ian. Brilliant design.
Hi Ian. I really like this rifle. It makes me think of steampunk for some reason. The dust flap and muzzle cap are so quaint. I can imagine soldiers with huge epaulets and tall gold braided caps standing to attention to the admiral while flutes are sounding the welcome salute. Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
That mono-pod brings to mind a question,
Did anyone ever make a firearm where the mono-pod/bi-pod double as the bayonet?
Never heard of that happening, but the US did have a combination cleaning rod bayonet on the springfield. It was a pointed stick.
bit of a late reply, but yes the soviet avs-36 bayonet can be set up as a monopod.
I've seen monopod/entrenching tools but never monopod/bayonets
Spiker SKSs come to mind, but in reverse. The bayonet can be stuck into the ground as a monopod. Intentional? Probably not. Functional? Sure.
Hang it off the front barrel band and go off, even has a handy depth guide
Beautiful rifles. Thank you for sharing Sir.
Just a small thing I noticed.the heel of the pistol grip of the prototype model is just so elegantly carved. Such a small detail but it really looks amazing.
Gorgeous piece of machinery, some really interesting ideas here. Definitely a weapon that inspires a bit of a thought experiment about how things in the early 20th century may have been different had one of the major powers been more experimental/forward thinking with their weapon adoptions.
Either there is a fantastic acoustic in the room this was filmed in, or this gun has one of the best sounding click-clacks I have ever heard.
Beautiful! Creative action.
This was a really cool video! Love this channel
Great work Sir thank you
They keep refining on there original model. As they say if it aint broke ah but it worked so they make each one better. Really nice to see each model and its differences with still the original idea. You very lucky to get to see and handle these and other rare guns. Wish i was able to like many others do too.
This is probably the one semi-auto rifle for which a muzzle cap is perfectly safe to install. When the gun is charged for the first round, the barrel's retreat into the sleeve would automatically remove the muzzle cap, so there's almost no risk of the cap obstructing the muzzle unless the user is a total idiot.
I asked this question on the earlier upload of this video, Ian said that it doesn't come off on charging, unfortunately.
i think the bullet exits the barell before the mecanism is fully recoilled, so a muzlle cap will be blown by the bullet and not by the barell sleeve. just sain'... no harm intended.
I've shot several plastic muzzle covers off my ARs without any issues, they make them soft so there is no damage when you forget or you're in a big hurry. Unless you made it from steel and had a strong attachment I wouldn't worry much.
+Chris Jones yes, there is no danger. i dont think anyone ever blown a barrel by having a overpressure caused by a muzlle cover (or a finger stuck in the muzlle ;-). i just noted the opperating principle of the gun has no relevance in regards to muzlle cover safety norms.
* * I agree, my comment was directed more at the original post here. Muzzle covers are perfectly safe, if a bit unnecessary, on pretty much any firearm. It takes a lot more than a little plastic or rubber to cause any problems like Elmer Fudd used to have, lol.
Madsen had amazing insight!
That is such a cool-looking firearm.
I AM Danish and I didnt know about THIS gun, i knew about the Madsen LMG and Anti air gun.. but not this one.. thanks alot for the video and informations. Sadly no video of shooting the Gun.
Great video!
12:16 Absolute steampunkness confirmed.
Should have come with a monocle instead of a monopod.
Meh...Close enough.
What a Neat Gun Great Video
The magazine on the top is so cool :D
I can nearly imagine how it feels to cycle it by sound and action.
my god, as soon as you cycled the action I fell in love! any chance you could upload a full hour of top down view cycling? pretty please? lol
(edit) and the ejection chute! aw man such a stunning mechanical treat.
These rifles remind me that there are still good ideas to implement- even in a field as crowded and traditional as firearms. There is still room for the inventive mind in engineering.
Is it just me or does this rifle look totally badass...
The range demarcation lines on the prototype looks like a standard metric ruler.
im Danish born but US raised. i always love how odd Danish design is and yet always seems well thought out
Never heard an American pronounce the soft Danish d right, props for doing it right when you say "or as it is properly called 'Madsen'". Not so much luck on å, but still Better than 95% of English speakers. Well done. We can conclude that you are a linguist as well as a gun lover.
That is Tøjhus museet, was there recently, cool! Wish I saw you.
this is a pretty nifty gun, I like it.
Clean gun. Whoever did that loves his job
amazing how much mechanical movement they managed to stuff in so little space
There is a bit of an obsession with cam controlled stuff in Denmark xD Almost the entirety of this rifle functions with the use of cam slots
I just love the "klicky klack"!
Martini Henry springs to mind.
Amazing how these rifles will be 125 years old this year
De bedste hilsener fra Danmark.
The term you were looking for for the ammunition feeding device is a hopper.
Nice video😀 to bad you wasnt able to open these further like the madsen light machine gun.
The first successful design for a semi-automatic rifle is attributed to Austria-born gunsmith Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher, who unveiled the design in 1885. The Model 85 was followed by the equally innovative Mannlicher Models 91, 93 and 95 semi-automatic rifles.
But was it adopted by any miltary branch?
Makes me think of a Krag. the box on the left side and how it horizontally pushes a cartridge in.
Nice!
The Madsen system is one of those things that's very early and attempts to do something forward looking, but shouldn't have been very popular. Yet the machinegun incarnation is quite the exception.
as a Dane I am impressed with your pronunciation.
6:40 gotta be the nicest action sound on a gun ever
if I remember correctly, the last recorded use of a Madsen by the brazilians was in the summer of 2015
I found of these in the armory in the Lebanese army .
They have tones of guns nobody's heard or seen if .
I knew someone with an M14 back there it's still the ceremonial rifle now it's the more modern guns of today .
-first military semiauto
-magazine-y thingy on the top
*something's cool I can feel it*
What a novel firearm. It's very intresting mechanically.
That's bizzare enough to be French.
You must be american ;-)
XD
Well, before the last two world wars, Denmark was aimed more towards France then England, so that makes sence. France was a mechanical powerhouse in its own, interesting but less well known way and still is till this day :).
You whats bizare?
Les cries que ta fais quand jla fist!
Randy Allen It's not bizzare, only a complicated.
I love these guns! If I had the prototype I'd sleep with it every night for the rest of my life.
your pronunciation of danish words is very good
It is a tricky language for sure. Like the silent e in Schouboe which is actually from a 16th century nobel family so the spelling is weird even for a dane
Tøjhusmuseet (Danish Armor(y) Museum) has now joined forces the Danish Naval Museum and is now called 'Krigsmuseet' :The War Museum.
And by the way: 'd' in Madsen i silent, thus pronounsed 'Massen' and Rasmussen has the stress on the first syllable and 'u' is NOT 'YOU', thus rather 'RAS-moussen.
This is standard firearm for space steampunk pirates.
dude i think i saw you in that museum
Hi Ian about the Steyr ACR, does the gap between the chamber and the barrel cause pressure decrease? Same goes for G11 since it has a moving chamber too.
Hey ian you and carl should do a mudtest on ww1 or ww2 era shotgun of your choice how good was the trench gun ?
The short receiver, offset magazine and bottom ejection make it suitable for bullpup configuration. Just put a spring in the magazine and turn it upside down. Maybe this system still has potential.
Ejection of the spent cae would be problematic if you just inverted the system.
You mentioned that the lone eagle has a very efficient action for long barrel length in a pistol, do you reckon that a falling block action like this would be useful in a bullpup rifle for decreasing length of pull or increasing the barrel length as well?
I'd love to see a modern one made in 30-06
The Madsen LMG was in use by the K.u.K Armee. I think that qualifies as a huge one.
Do you have a video with a good view of the cam plate in maddens?
Maybe he answered this in the video and I just missed it, but does the charging handle reciprocate on firing?
Human ingenuity amazes me. So many different ways of designing guns to do, essentially, the same thing. Do you suppose all these inventors actually thought their designs were superior, or were they just trying to come up with workable designs that avoided existing patents?
A mix of both, sometimes it is just a gun maker tinkering around with concepts but there often can be patent issues in play. It is like car design to a degree, in most cases you have the same basic set of systems that need to do the same thing when you get done with them.
As already mentioned, a lot of weirder developments were caused by the patent issues. If you can't make something due to a patent, you are trying to develop something similar or operating using the same principles without causing patent infringement. Then there are genuinely "quirky" designs. And then there are experiments and tests. And then there are people who weren't gun designers, but went into "gun business" with their expertise in different industrial processes and tooling. Oh, and don't forget about political and/or military pressure to get "our" gun - doesn't matter if it's inferior, it's "our".
I don't think it was mentioned, but the charging handle appears to be non-reciprocating. Is that correct?
Courtney Goff He did say it is a reciprocating charging handle.
It doesn't reciprocate on the LMG and this looks the same. Unless the handle is pulled back the reciprocating action will ride over the top without engaging the charging handle.
Its actually a frozen half pretzel
Because the ammunition containing device doesn't use a spring, does it technically fall under the category of a clip or is it just an exemption to the magazine category without being a clip?
Can't help it, but I could envision seeing this little puppy using a lever-action system like a Winchester for cocking the weapon. Just make it a brass lever and not too slick for even more steampunk vibe.
There a actually was one order for the Madsen light machine gun to (in terms of manpower) the largest military in Europe and possibly the world: Imperial Russia.
However, it was a not a large order and though the Madsen did see service as early as the Russo-Japanese War, Russian emphasis would be on the their heavier Maxim guns.
My guess is that the Madsen’s role as a sort of “marginal machine gun” was mainly due to it being a fairly complex (and hence expensive) system produced by a small, neutral country with a small industrial base (contrast with Belgium/FN) and never put into mass licensed production in the two large power that did use them to a limited extent (the German and especially the Russian Empire).
So does the charging handle cycle as the gun is fired?
also recently watched your video on the mg11 caseless rifle where you mention caseless ammo is fragile seems like that lateral falling block what lend its self to that type of ammo as well maybe well see this type of action return. lol
It would be amazing if you could mud test this
Could the "missing" 4 rifles been a gift to King George I of Denmark and his Royal sons and son-in-laws?
I enjoyed the video as always but for some reason I was confused by the function of this rifle. I'm sure you explained it well and it's something I'm just not grasping. If I could see it cycle a dummy round that might help, who knows. Could be that it's almost 5am and I'm getting tired, lol.
Saw the thumbnail. Immediately thought so this us what you get when you fuse a bren magazine with a SMLE 😂😂
Since Denmark did not go metric until 1907, it's more likely Danish feet on the rear sight scale.
So this is the last video from your trip to Denmark, right?
At the meet up, I think you said that there would be videos of three guns.
... And I seem to recall, that there was something about the staff at the museum, testing your Danish language skill.
Are we going to see that here some day?
Cheers
Literally translates to "The Fleet's recoil rifle".
I am from Denmark and I find this video very interesting! You should work on your danish pronounciation though, as I had a hard time understanding it - but points for trying ;)!
But keep up the good work of documenting these interesting, mechanical mechanisms from around the world. I find it very fascinating and absolutely top class!
Årh hold op...
Han gør det bedre end så mange andre..
Syntes det forkert at banke folk i hovedet med deres udtalelser, når de klart gør deres bedste..
"Flaadens Rekylgevær" means something like "The Fleet's Recoil-Rifle".
Wondering why coastal fortress defence were considered to be needing that kind of firepower in 1896? 🤔
Btw Toijhuismyset is well worth a visit! 😁😄🙂
It is a wonder that the Brit's or Germans didn't embrace this in 303 Brit or 8X57mm and use it in WW1 the way the Americans planned to use the BAR 1919.
William Prince There was an attempt to set up production in the UK during WWI, but by the time they'd managed to produce enough guns for a trial the Lewis Gun was getting close to adoption.
Manufacturing them in Denmark wasn't an option due to our Neutrality
William Prince There was an attempt to set up production in the UK during WWI, but by the time they'd managed to produce enough guns for a trial the Lewis Gun was getting close to adoption.
Manufacturing them in Denmark wasn't an option due to our Neutrality
The Brit’s had a domestic produced madsen called the Rexer in 1906 but only a few were made
Literally a "semi-automatic weapon of war" (at a time when that actually meant something).
Be neat to see this rifle in BF1
It looks like a long recoil action. Not a short recoil system.
One of these rifles might have been present when the danish west indies were turned over to the united states when they were sold off in 1912 - made more likely by the fact that less than 100 were aquired by the danish navy.
The only problem with that rifle is, when u fired it upside down, no more bullet enter into d reciever for there's no spring inside d magazine