Completely agree, if raid design changes were such a big deal to them then they should highlight that. The fact that they do not adress it is very worrying, especially in light of Yoshida's clarifications in the pre-show
Difficulty should progressively increase as you progress through the game. Fights having the same format at 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 with no deviation is not a good sign. Seems like they are hesitant on tipping the boat. Some kind of middleground content to ease players into the harder content would be welcome.
While I was doing e4s with my static as dawntrail prep, I noticed something. When the boss doesn't constantly centre itself and is movable by the tank position, it's not just about tank skill expression or melee uptime. It also adds variety to the fight and keeps your brain awake because each pull feels just slightly different. This is really noticeable when you chain pull a boss like e4s vs a boss like p6s. e4s feels like a real boss, but p6s feels like a training dummy and gets dull really fast - especially because it only has 2 fixed cleaves, exactly N/S or E/W with chorus ixou and there is zero variety. I think historically, this is also why some people are not a fan of wall bosses - it gets monotonous much quicker than moving bosses in general.
Lot of people say "oh its just Normal mode". Sure it is only normal mode, but if you compare this to like lets say Chaos Normal (Also the first boss of a tier). He does basically EXACTLY the same mechanics (Half Room Cleave > Cleaves > Cleaves the safe spots) but he never re-centers the entire fight aside from his transition where he leaves the arena. His cleaves can also be tilted if the tank doesn't face him towards a cardinal direction. Just having things like this add so much to tank skill expression and how mechanics can be executed. So why does the level 70 Raid have more demanding execution than the Lvl 100 one?
One thing is they absolutely need to give tanks back boss position responsibility, and second is stop the artificial difficulty "enhancement" filler body checks bullshit. Give a raid wide damage down and make the DPS checks a tad bit tighter, let us see the entire fight and not wipe if one person is messing up. Then bring back the storm blood raid style with the unique actions you can use every fight they gave then all personality. I know people were upset about their uptime and gimmicks and shit but it made every fight it had unique and memorable, and fun. Fuck numbers, fuck your damage, I want to have fun like the Alex raids and storm blood. Stormblood is peak savage
If there is one good takeaway from this, it's that the raids are still seemingly fully voiced and following the precedent set by Anabaseios. I still wish they'd abolish bosses having these boring warm-up sessions of spamming generic telegraphed AoEs before anything interesting happens, though. We get enough of that in the MSQ dungeons.
I think the raidwide is supposed to be a gear score check but also they might be worried people would want to reset if they messed up mechanics during their first two minute window
I don't think they'd go into details about how raid design is different in a live letter that's meant to cover a broad range of topics. Also, we don't know what's after this, we don't know how things will be added onto, etc. I'm somewhat hopeful because it goes through more mechanics in 15 seconds than your typical myths of the realm alliance raid boss takes 3 minutes to do. Honestly, this does give us something to go off of. The pacing of the opening salvo of mechanics is much faster than EW fights, which tells me this is going to be more mechanically dense than similar first turns. Small hitbox means melees have to struggle for uptime. The boss does recenter, but they probably don't want boss positioning to be a huge thing in the first turn since there's now a lot of tanks that don't have much experience in properly doing that. Plus, we don't really know exactly when in the dev cycle for Dawntrail they decided they needed to experiment with mechanics more. Could be the case that the first couple fights in this tier are fairly typical. Maybe you'll ultimately be proven right, that this particular fight isn't any different, and them wanting to change how raids are designed didn't happen until midway through development. To me though, I think there's already notable differences in how much they trust the player to learn mechanics at a quicker pace.
From what we've seen so far it's literally just a reskin (with a very minor or perhaps not because God mode) of P1... like bruh, especially with the TB > group stack reminds me of True Holy/True Flare but godmode negating knockback + vulnerable stacks
Yoshi p confirm that the hopium of 7.2 was a mistranslation on the last live letter, it also confirm that cbu3 is possibly doing ff9remake was also fake.
I just can't assume anything until I've tried it myself and seen everything 7.0 has to offer. The first 20 seconds of this fight look like generic raid design they've been doing since forever but that's it, I can only say this for the first moments of the first fight of the normal raids.
@@Siul_987 I think they found a model that works for them financially and for the masses, and just made the business decision to say f everyone else we'll give them ultimates if they wanna challenge themselves. which kinda sucks for hardcore raiders like myself but I cant really get mad a business is trying to make money
Love to see it. Great too see the Pillar of the XIV raid race scene being vocal and communicating frustration a good chunk of raiders have been experiencing over the past 4 ish years of raiding. The baked in subtitles tell you the Moogle man is sending a serious message too. Here's hoping they are able to take this feedback onboard and make some actionable change sooner rather than later within DT's content cycle.
i could understand if the boss is repositioning himself for some big mechanic... but for a half room cleave? come on, there are still brains in the peoples head. stuff like that makes easy content boring and the bridge between easy and savage even bigger as it already is.
I agree with frosty so far we have yet to see what are these "new changes" to raids. The only one that we can take from this is that the hit box is small which is good however nothing else that was promised is shown beside that. I guess we just wait and see.
What you're saying in this video is valid criticism. The end's apology to Yoshida on the other hand is entirely unwarranted. This community needs to stop deifying the devs and be more open to criticizing them when its needed, the end's groveling takes any wind out of the criticism's sails. The devs can handle criticism, especially since nothing in this video is in any way harsh or unwarranted.
Yoshi-P saying Zepla should have been nicer when her criticism video was already so apologetic... they're as bad at taking criticism as the fans are at offering it.
I was talking to a main tank friend, and he told me he wasn't excited to tank again because it's boring for him (after all these years) so if raids are not make things feel new/different/exciting for veterans it's going to make a toll on them leading to lots of problems like: fewer people in pf after week 8, people clearing fights and never doing them again, fewer subscriptions, etc, which will also impact midcore and casual players. Hopefully, the fights are more interesting than what we saw in the live letter.
Isn’t that criterion xD? I do wish dungeon offer something more, but I think they designed then like some beat em up stage, beat everything get reward and bye bye.
@@KainsAddiction I mean, I am literally describing the current dungeon design lol, how is that dumb? I do wish for something else btw, that doesn’t change how they design them currently.
@@KainsAddiction no problem! I use the “beat ‘em up” video game genre specifically as an example of how the design dungeons, it does kind of feel like a beat em up design, a couple of mini bosses, trash mobs in the middle, big boss at the end and end of stage. I do wish dungeon offered something more or at least as minimum bigger pulls to do other than two packs and restricted to continue before the next pulls or boss.
To the people that are disagreeing with frost and type things like "this is only the first 15 seconds of the fight why is he mad". bro please stop typing and listen to what frosty is saying. He is only saying " so far from what we seen nothing has changed the boss does the exact same thing from any raid tier". Frost has every right to complain here and he isnt wrong in the slightest. Yoshi said they are changing raid desgin etc etc but so far everything is the same except the hit box is smaller. You cant just say "oh but its just the first boss" thats not how it works if u raided u would know that this should be the first thing they would need to change since its the most predicable thing about the raids not to mention the boss centering himself . first fight doing the exact same thing after yoshi saying that fights are getting to predictable and boring doesnt seem to promising.
This is why I am rapidly falling out of love with this game, as you said multiple times, "looks cool", but it's become so formulaic. They have refined the classes and development of the game overall so far to just churn it out that it's basically becoming a reskin every time, with a couple of differences. Feels like it's being factory produced by a machine.
people forget these are lvl 100 raids, i would think diffculty should increase..not be the same as every other raid series before it. for me...the eden series had the most unique/mid core content. little things could help make the game a little more diffcult. they are way too generous with cast times on boss moves and the moves should hit harder..creating the need for healers.
2 big issues still carried from every raid before, tank losing his job with the boss teleporting every 1 mechanic making it brain dead easy how to fight without the tank doing anything, the second issue is every NORMAL raid is basically raid level for beginners who just started yesterday while extreme takes time is stupid, can we actually get 3 or 4 difficulties that teaches the raid a little instead of going from baby level to hardcore
Pretty sure they said they would make changes 7.2 and beyond? That being said, yes, they need to stop being scared and actually design their game. It's the same thing Blizzard fell into. You can listen to the players, but not so much it stops you from being creative and trying new things. I want challenge in every aspect of the game, including 24 man raids. Stop being scared of the players and design interesting things, please.
It's felt a little unclear with coverage recently, they harped on it a good bit at PAX East, but said it will be gradual in 7.0 in a recent interview with major changes in 7.1. And the other news I heard about 7.2 was that it was focus on job design.
@MogTalk It's combat encounters for 7.2 onward. Job design won't be until 8.0 they have said. A 3 year wait for job design changes isn't very promising.
There's no reason why a normal mode boss can't have an interesting first minute. It's bad, it's boring, it's slow, and telegraphed as hell. The people who think YoshiP and team can do no wrong think that everything below extremes has to be boring as hell.
Oh my god... Dude this is the normal. It is the first minute. It's the first floor of the first raid series. There are no key details - you're reading way too much into this. We're going to have the raid tier in about a month - just wait. This game is 10 years old. When developers say they're going to take risks and change some things up, they don't mean nuking the formula from the very beginning on the easy difficulty. Also never heard anyone complain about two autos and raidwide before mechanics. We're all doing our opener - people tend to get annoyed when their opener has mechanics that require you to move. It happens in a few fights and no one likes it. Also the healer strike is ridiculous and being driven by people who have no idea how the game has functioned since STB.
It still feels insulting to my intelligence when the average normal mode boss raid or otherwise tends to spend the first minute or two doing extremely basic telegraphed AoEs when at this point people should be expecting them. The fights don't need to be wasted on having "warm-up" sessions and should just jump straight into the unique mechanics so they can be engaging from the get-go.
@@Sazandora635 I mean the normal raid series literally exists for people who want to do the story but can't do savage. It's for people who are bad at the game so im not sure what you're expecting. If there was no savage they wouldn't even have a normal raid series. It's just an awkwardly put together battle to grant access to the story for bad players.
With the job changes being exactly the same as Endwalker, i will be honest i'm really worried that it's also the same as the raid, i know its too soon to doompost but i can't shake the feeling of false promises
Man, I'm so glad that healers still have a reskin for their only two damage abilities for over 100 levels. Truly one of the expansions of all time. And no, "play harder content" isn't an answer. Look through any logs for ultimate clears on healer. It's still 500 casts of glare and tons of casts of dia (or whatever you want). I do look forward to savage being cleared WITHOUT healers perhaps on patch and the next ultimate being cleared without healers like TOP was. Clearly, the most necessary and needed role. Oh wait, they don't even HAVE a dedicated healer designer. Sure shows, doesn't it? What a lovely 2.5 years to look forward to! But at least you get to cosplay as WHM on SCH!
In fairness, healers are designed around fixing mistakes. So if everything goes well in a fight, it feels like you have too much stuff. When you do party finder and no one mits and your co-healer is dropping the ball, it hurts a lot. You end up doing a ton of hard casts. If they tighten up healer more than that, then they can't fix mistakes and everyone has to play perfectly to move forward. There's a good answer to make healers better, but it's not as straight forward as a lot of people make it out to be.
@@MogTalk But in that sense, as a healer im being punished for my group getting better? Why does it become more boring to me as the raid group gets better? Where I go from being a healer to a green dps with 3 different moves but mostly spam 1
Frosty you of all people know that developers start working on the next expac almost immediately after the release of the current one. You gotta give em time man ... most of this stuff was probably already done ahead of time before they found out how displeased most of the veterans are of the game. Give em time.
I think it's worth talking about because there is a lot of hype around the changes. I'm fine with there being more time, but definitely need to let us know what's going on with this raid tier in a clear manner after saying what they said at PAX. While they start on the stuff early, they still adjust this stuff up until release.
That's not quite true. Many MMOs deliver things ASAP (example, WoW) However for FFXIV I think it's very possible (that they have up to 7.1 content (current patch + next one) already ready and just bug testing, etc) because from an outsiders perspective, they're developing the game in a very Japanese way that leaves VERY little room for flexibility (and let's not talk about FFXIVs MASSIVE technical debt that Yoshi P seems to not want to fix)
People have been having these opinions of the game since 5.0... they've honestly had plenty of time to make changes, but chose accessibility for new players instead.
If you show off something, you are opening what you show off to criticism. But if you hold criticism because something is done ahead of time, when do you voice a concern about the product/service you pay for each month? Because you always end up holding your tongue because it will always, ALWAYS be finished in advance before it gets to you and even if its not done, done, it's likely too far along to course correct whats being shown but the goal is that there will be improvement in the future.
I think you analysis is sort of correct, except, the boss moving back to the center is rough on melee dps when the hit box is smaller. Also, tank life has been easy ever since Shadowbringers in normal raids and I don’t expect that to change. He mentioned in interviews that he wants the game to maintain the casual difficulty, while providing more of a challenge to high end players. So, I don’t see normal raids changing too much, but savage might be rougher. Though, I am wondering if bosses 2-4 will be more of challenge that they were in Endwalker. Hell, even Shadowbringers has a few raids that can still wipe groups (those damn birds and portals gets a lot of people still).
It won't be rough on Melee if the tank just keeps the boss in the center and doesn't move lol. The discussions I saw on it were making content more exciting, but he didn't exactly say which content and what that expanded into. Not exactly that things would be harder either, just exciting. More innovative, to let his developers take risk.
this is so unnecessarily doomer lol. It's the first fight or the new expansion. Was anyone actually expecting any drastic changes? The hit box alone gives me hopium.
it is okay, but you spend like half the video explaining that we don't have enough information. It is funny that the mechanics we've seen was dynamo into chariot in the ex and then right left half way cleaves. And we won't know until the fights are out, but who knows maybe the auto centering is a normal only thing, just like how I'm assuming the proteans will be player baited in savage. And I'm a little skeptical on this bit, but yoshi did say that the expert dungeons will start to show some of this change in design philosophy.
@@kennys6288I mean, that's literally true. Go full doomer after the tiers out of its not good. It most likely will just be more of the same and the whole "making the game harder" thing ends up not being true. I don't doubt that. But the first turn of the first tier is designed to teach extremely basic things that will be present in every savage encounter. You need at least one boss at the start of the expansion to be both the "this is what a clockspot is" tutorial man and the freebee turn to rope in new raiders.
Hey Frosty I am just seeing your channel now, but, do not have much high hopes tbh Ofc, they could add more stress as the fight goes on (since P10 stress is at the later half of the fight) but it doesnt seem constant, at least not first floor but then, as a Hrothgar player waiting for the headgear to come since ShB.... yeah.
Frosty, just an opinion, you're a super duper raider so the change you're looking for should be in Unreals, Savage and Ultimates. I'm a casual who has trouble with normal raids and msq dungeon bosses. I'm looking at this preview knowing I'm going to have a hard time. This content and difficulty level is for us normie, 5hrs a week players
@@TomRupert You can make interesting, easy content. This is bottom of the barrel. They might as well have the voice actor say "Alright everyone, I'm going to cleave this side of the room!!! Please watch out!!!!! >.
Imagine for a moment, you're more than halfway through development for an expansion then you get swarmed with a bunch of feedback while you have a good chunk of the product done. Are you just gonna scrap All of that work that is now done? No! You'd address you hear the feedback, "slip up" about changes coming in 8.0, and try to ease the swelling before a full on implosion. I get it, healthy dose of criticism is always needed. But if you seriously believed for a moment you'd see drastic changes right out of the gate......The Ai Censoring system on this platform would not be happy with my choice of words. If anything we may see changes later in the expansion via 7.4+ that reflect some of that feedback given. Adjustments can happen in development sure, but that is costly. So seriously everyone, look to 8.0 and onward from there for the real reflection of said feedback. Copium, Hopium, whatever word ya wanna call it. But it is better than straight up being a "sore winner" nitpicking every single thing. The Devs hear us, let 'em cook for 8.0. 7.0 and 7.X is basically set in stone with what it will provide and has been well before that huge wave of feedback late last year even hit the Devs ears.
Most of this feedback has been given by veterans for years but since even casuals are getting upset, NOW they are listening. Years of feedback are being heard now because its not just the veterans anymore. Thats really frustrating.
@@dracodragniel8648 I agree completely, 100000000000000% with you. As I've had my fair share of criticisms over the years. The Devs this time were sorta forced to listen though haha Take that as you will lol (It's both good and a bad thing) But fr, this vid is all smoke and mirrors. Good to talk about, and as a reminder sure. But too soon to be swinging the bat around
More content creator doomer behviour. It's normal mode and just the beginning of the fight. Just wait and see what happens. I'll be more than happy to join in on the negativity after we know everything. However, considering this stuff is already locked in, and we don't see the full picture this is just useless doomer talk.
It's kinda funny coming back to this after going through just the normal raids
Completely agree, if raid design changes were such a big deal to them then they should highlight that. The fact that they do not adress it is very worrying, especially in light of Yoshida's clarifications in the pre-show
That was my major concern, I just figured we'd see or hear anything about the changes when showing off the new raid.
Difficulty should progressively increase as you progress through the game. Fights having the same format at 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 with no deviation is not a good sign.
Seems like they are hesitant on tipping the boat. Some kind of middleground content to ease players into the harder content would be welcome.
While I was doing e4s with my static as dawntrail prep, I noticed something. When the boss doesn't constantly centre itself and is movable by the tank position, it's not just about tank skill expression or melee uptime. It also adds variety to the fight and keeps your brain awake because each pull feels just slightly different.
This is really noticeable when you chain pull a boss like e4s vs a boss like p6s. e4s feels like a real boss, but p6s feels like a training dummy and gets dull really fast - especially because it only has 2 fixed cleaves, exactly N/S or E/W with chorus ixou and there is zero variety. I think historically, this is also why some people are not a fan of wall bosses - it gets monotonous much quicker than moving bosses in general.
Lot of people say "oh its just Normal mode". Sure it is only normal mode, but if you compare this to like lets say Chaos Normal (Also the first boss of a tier). He does basically EXACTLY the same mechanics (Half Room Cleave > Cleaves > Cleaves the safe spots) but he never re-centers the entire fight aside from his transition where he leaves the arena. His cleaves can also be tilted if the tank doesn't face him towards a cardinal direction. Just having things like this add so much to tank skill expression and how mechanics can be executed.
So why does the level 70 Raid have more demanding execution than the Lvl 100 one?
Also Normals shouldn't be braindead. FF14 needs the floor raised, the game has almost no mid-diff content.
One thing is they absolutely need to give tanks back boss position responsibility, and second is stop the artificial difficulty "enhancement" filler body checks bullshit. Give a raid wide damage down and make the DPS checks a tad bit tighter, let us see the entire fight and not wipe if one person is messing up.
Then bring back the storm blood raid style with the unique actions you can use every fight they gave then all personality. I know people were upset about their uptime and gimmicks and shit but it made every fight it had unique and memorable, and fun. Fuck numbers, fuck your damage, I want to have fun like the Alex raids and storm blood. Stormblood is peak savage
If there is one good takeaway from this, it's that the raids are still seemingly fully voiced and following the precedent set by Anabaseios.
I still wish they'd abolish bosses having these boring warm-up sessions of spamming generic telegraphed AoEs before anything interesting happens, though. We get enough of that in the MSQ dungeons.
Yeah, boring openers need to be removed. I love the voice acting for sure.
I think the raidwide is supposed to be a gear score check but also they might be worried people would want to reset if they messed up mechanics during their first two minute window
I don't think they'd go into details about how raid design is different in a live letter that's meant to cover a broad range of topics.
Also, we don't know what's after this, we don't know how things will be added onto, etc. I'm somewhat hopeful because it goes through more mechanics in 15 seconds than your typical myths of the realm alliance raid boss takes 3 minutes to do. Honestly, this does give us something to go off of. The pacing of the opening salvo of mechanics is much faster than EW fights, which tells me this is going to be more mechanically dense than similar first turns. Small hitbox means melees have to struggle for uptime. The boss does recenter, but they probably don't want boss positioning to be a huge thing in the first turn since there's now a lot of tanks that don't have much experience in properly doing that. Plus, we don't really know exactly when in the dev cycle for Dawntrail they decided they needed to experiment with mechanics more. Could be the case that the first couple fights in this tier are fairly typical.
Maybe you'll ultimately be proven right, that this particular fight isn't any different, and them wanting to change how raids are designed didn't happen until midway through development. To me though, I think there's already notable differences in how much they trust the player to learn mechanics at a quicker pace.
Yeah I'm just assuming it's normal mode and I'll wait and see what savage is like. I am not as concerned at the moment.
From what we've seen so far it's literally just a reskin (with a very minor or perhaps not because God mode) of P1... like bruh, especially with the TB > group stack reminds me of True Holy/True Flare but godmode negating knockback + vulnerable stacks
lol I thought the same thing when. I saw the mechs.
Thought it was 7.2 and beyond? Pretty sure 7.0 raid was finished over 6 months ago from a development process.
Yoshi p confirm that the hopium of 7.2 was a mistranslation on the last live letter, it also confirm that cbu3 is possibly doing ff9remake was also fake.
I just can't assume anything until I've tried it myself and seen everything 7.0 has to offer. The first 20 seconds of this fight look like generic raid design they've been doing since forever but that's it, I can only say this for the first moments of the first fight of the normal raids.
Damn, let me delete the video then. Why even talk about it.
It was clear from the ability design and the first dungeon that Dawntrail will be Endwalker 1.5
endwalker was already shadowbringers 1.5
@@rare9242agreed, Dawntrail in all honesty seems to be a shb 1.8, I think we won’t really see big changes in fight and job design maybe until 8.0.
@@Siul_987 I think they found a model that works for them financially and for the masses, and just made the business decision to say f everyone else we'll give them ultimates if they wanna challenge themselves. which kinda sucks for hardcore raiders like myself but I cant really get mad a business is trying to make money
Love to see it. Great too see the Pillar of the XIV raid race scene being vocal and communicating frustration a good chunk of raiders have been experiencing over the past 4 ish years of raiding.
The baked in subtitles tell you the Moogle man is sending a serious message too.
Here's hoping they are able to take this feedback onboard and make some actionable change sooner rather than later within DT's content cycle.
I think the new stuff was what yoshi p was hiding by dying at that point in the fight though
I hope they punish us with the FFXI 24 man raid series, considering how punishing some of those FFXI bosses were back in the day (damn Tenzen).
Maat the real final boss
i could understand if the boss is repositioning himself for some big mechanic... but for a half room cleave? come on, there are still brains in the peoples head. stuff like that makes easy content boring and the bridge between easy and savage even bigger as it already is.
bold of you to assume they won't do that in savage too
I agree with frosty so far we have yet to see what are these "new changes" to raids.
The only one that we can take from this is that the hit box is small which is good however nothing else that was promised is shown beside that.
I guess we just wait and see.
Hit box is great, but I'd like more than that for sure. Just figured it was worth noticing.
I hope that Savage just yeets us into a mech right away
I dunno if Yoshi P has the guts to pull a Lucilius and just start with a Paradise Lost.
What you're saying in this video is valid criticism. The end's apology to Yoshida on the other hand is entirely unwarranted. This community needs to stop deifying the devs and be more open to criticizing them when its needed, the end's groveling takes any wind out of the criticism's sails. The devs can handle criticism, especially since nothing in this video is in any way harsh or unwarranted.
Yoshi-P saying Zepla should have been nicer when her criticism video was already so apologetic... they're as bad at taking criticism as the fans are at offering it.
Eh, big raid changes would be to 1 month jail the cheaters immediately since there's no way they can't detect the 20 bots/apps..
I was talking to a main tank friend, and he told me he wasn't excited to tank again because it's boring for him (after all these years) so if raids are not make things feel new/different/exciting for veterans it's going to make a toll on them leading to lots of problems like: fewer people in pf after week 8, people clearing fights and never doing them again, fewer subscriptions, etc, which will also impact midcore and casual players. Hopefully, the fights are more interesting than what we saw in the live letter.
I wish for all Dungeons to have different routes + at least a difficulty variant with rare/better loots.
Criterion
Isn’t that criterion xD? I do wish dungeon offer something more, but I think they designed then like some beat em up stage, beat everything get reward and bye bye.
@@KainsAddiction I mean, I am literally describing the current dungeon design lol, how is that dumb?
I do wish for something else btw, that doesn’t change how they design them currently.
@@KainsAddiction no problem! I use the “beat ‘em up” video game genre specifically as an example of how the design dungeons, it does kind of feel like a beat em up design, a couple of mini bosses, trash mobs in the middle, big boss at the end and end of stage.
I do wish dungeon offered something more or at least as minimum bigger pulls to do other than two packs and restricted to continue before the next pulls or boss.
To the people that are disagreeing with frost and type things like "this is only the first 15 seconds of the fight why is he mad". bro please stop typing and listen to what frosty is saying. He is only saying " so far from what we seen nothing has changed the boss does the exact same thing from any raid tier". Frost has every right to complain here and he isnt wrong in the slightest.
Yoshi said they are changing raid desgin etc etc but so far everything is the same except the hit box is smaller.
You cant just say "oh but its just the first boss" thats not how it works if u raided u would know that this should be the first thing they would need to change since its the most predicable thing about the raids not to mention the boss centering himself .
first fight doing the exact same thing after yoshi saying that fights are getting to predictable and boring doesnt seem to promising.
This is why I am rapidly falling out of love with this game, as you said multiple times, "looks cool", but it's become so formulaic. They have refined the classes and development of the game overall so far to just churn it out that it's basically becoming a reskin every time, with a couple of differences. Feels like it's being factory produced by a machine.
Imagine seeing this cool looking raid and crying that Fight 1 of Normal isn't a mechanics jamboree.
people forget these are lvl 100 raids, i would think diffculty should increase..not be the same as every other raid series before it. for me...the eden series had the most unique/mid core content. little things could help make the game a little more diffcult. they are way too generous with cast times on boss moves and the moves should hit harder..creating the need for healers.
2 big issues still carried from every raid before, tank losing his job with the boss teleporting every 1 mechanic making it brain dead easy how to fight without the tank doing anything, the second issue is every NORMAL raid is basically raid level for beginners who just started yesterday while extreme takes time is stupid, can we actually get 3 or 4 difficulties that teaches the raid a little instead of going from baby level to hardcore
mmm… tasty doomium
Oh sorry, game is great - no problems seen. Can we be friends now?
Pretty sure they said they would make changes 7.2 and beyond? That being said, yes, they need to stop being scared and actually design their game. It's the same thing Blizzard fell into. You can listen to the players, but not so much it stops you from being creative and trying new things. I want challenge in every aspect of the game, including 24 man raids. Stop being scared of the players and design interesting things, please.
It's felt a little unclear with coverage recently, they harped on it a good bit at PAX East, but said it will be gradual in 7.0 in a recent interview with major changes in 7.1. And the other news I heard about 7.2 was that it was focus on job design.
@MogTalk It's combat encounters for 7.2 onward. Job design won't be until 8.0 they have said. A 3 year wait for job design changes isn't very promising.
gensin did the same . players want to lose. losing is the game
Yoshi confirmed that is not the case. Some journalists got that detail wrong
At this its 100% too late for any changes for super big changes outside numbers. For anything major you will need to wait till 7.2 probably.
It's normal mode and it's the first turn of the tier. It's going to be baby mode on both counts.
Same shit, different expac
There's no reason why a normal mode boss can't have an interesting first minute. It's bad, it's boring, it's slow, and telegraphed as hell. The people who think YoshiP and team can do no wrong think that everything below extremes has to be boring as hell.
Oh my god...
Dude this is the normal. It is the first minute. It's the first floor of the first raid series. There are no key details - you're reading way too much into this. We're going to have the raid tier in about a month - just wait.
This game is 10 years old. When developers say they're going to take risks and change some things up, they don't mean nuking the formula from the very beginning on the easy difficulty.
Also never heard anyone complain about two autos and raidwide before mechanics. We're all doing our opener - people tend to get annoyed when their opener has mechanics that require you to move. It happens in a few fights and no one likes it.
Also the healer strike is ridiculous and being driven by people who have no idea how the game has functioned since STB.
Did... did you watch the video? I address exactly what you just said.
It still feels insulting to my intelligence when the average normal mode boss raid or otherwise tends to spend the first minute or two doing extremely basic telegraphed AoEs when at this point people should be expecting them.
The fights don't need to be wasted on having "warm-up" sessions and should just jump straight into the unique mechanics so they can be engaging from the get-go.
@@Sazandora635 I mean the normal raid series literally exists for people who want to do the story but can't do savage. It's for people who are bad at the game so im not sure what you're expecting.
If there was no savage they wouldn't even have a normal raid series. It's just an awkwardly put together battle to grant access to the story for bad players.
With the job changes being exactly the same as Endwalker, i will be honest i'm really worried that it's also the same as the raid, i know its too soon to doompost but i can't shake the feeling of false promises
Man, I'm so glad that healers still have a reskin for their only two damage abilities for over 100 levels. Truly one of the expansions of all time. And no, "play harder content" isn't an answer. Look through any logs for ultimate clears on healer. It's still 500 casts of glare and tons of casts of dia (or whatever you want). I do look forward to savage being cleared WITHOUT healers perhaps on patch and the next ultimate being cleared without healers like TOP was. Clearly, the most necessary and needed role. Oh wait, they don't even HAVE a dedicated healer designer. Sure shows, doesn't it? What a lovely 2.5 years to look forward to! But at least you get to cosplay as WHM on SCH!
In fairness, healers are designed around fixing mistakes. So if everything goes well in a fight, it feels like you have too much stuff. When you do party finder and no one mits and your co-healer is dropping the ball, it hurts a lot. You end up doing a ton of hard casts. If they tighten up healer more than that, then they can't fix mistakes and everyone has to play perfectly to move forward. There's a good answer to make healers better, but it's not as straight forward as a lot of people make it out to be.
@@MogTalk But in that sense, as a healer im being punished for my group getting better? Why does it become more boring to me as the raid group gets better? Where I go from being a healer to a green dps with 3 different moves but mostly spam 1
Need more Harrowing Hell kind of raidwide damage
Use their gcd heals, cuz right now only bad players use gcd heals
Healer strike, lol
Frosty you of all people know that developers start working on the next expac almost immediately after the release of the current one. You gotta give em time man ... most of this stuff was probably already done ahead of time before they found out how displeased most of the veterans are of the game. Give em time.
I think it's worth talking about because there is a lot of hype around the changes. I'm fine with there being more time, but definitely need to let us know what's going on with this raid tier in a clear manner after saying what they said at PAX. While they start on the stuff early, they still adjust this stuff up until release.
That's not quite true. Many MMOs deliver things ASAP (example, WoW)
However for FFXIV I think it's very possible (that they have up to 7.1 content (current patch + next one) already ready and just bug testing, etc) because from an outsiders perspective, they're developing the game in a very Japanese way that leaves VERY little room for flexibility (and let's not talk about FFXIVs MASSIVE technical debt that Yoshi P seems to not want to fix)
its important to talk about such stuff to show them we still want it and how important it is for the community to have those changes
People have been having these opinions of the game since 5.0... they've honestly had plenty of time to make changes, but chose accessibility for new players instead.
If you show off something, you are opening what you show off to criticism. But if you hold criticism because something is done ahead of time, when do you voice a concern about the product/service you pay for each month? Because you always end up holding your tongue because it will always, ALWAYS be finished in advance before it gets to you and even if its not done, done, it's likely too far along to course correct whats being shown but the goal is that there will be improvement in the future.
I think you analysis is sort of correct, except, the boss moving back to the center is rough on melee dps when the hit box is smaller. Also, tank life has been easy ever since Shadowbringers in normal raids and I don’t expect that to change. He mentioned in interviews that he wants the game to maintain the casual difficulty, while providing more of a challenge to high end players. So, I don’t see normal raids changing too much, but savage might be rougher. Though, I am wondering if bosses 2-4 will be more of challenge that they were in Endwalker. Hell, even Shadowbringers has a few raids that can still wipe groups (those damn birds and portals gets a lot of people still).
It won't be rough on Melee if the tank just keeps the boss in the center and doesn't move lol. The discussions I saw on it were making content more exciting, but he didn't exactly say which content and what that expanded into. Not exactly that things would be harder either, just exciting. More innovative, to let his developers take risk.
this is so unnecessarily doomer lol. It's the first fight or the new expansion. Was anyone actually expecting any drastic changes? The hit box alone gives me hopium.
If this is doomer, then fuck dude. When can I share any concerns I have? I thought I was fairly reasonable. Is it not okay to share concerns?
it is okay, but you spend like half the video explaining that we don't have enough information.
It is funny that the mechanics we've seen was dynamo into chariot in the ex and then right left half way cleaves. And we won't know until the fights are out, but who knows maybe the auto centering is a normal only thing, just like how I'm assuming the proteans will be player baited in savage.
And I'm a little skeptical on this bit, but yoshi did say that the expert dungeons will start to show some of this change in design philosophy.
Definitely doomer
Aaah yes, the good ol it’s just the first fight of the expansion, it’s only normal mode copium. Keep on huffin boys.
@@kennys6288I mean, that's literally true. Go full doomer after the tiers out of its not good.
It most likely will just be more of the same and the whole "making the game harder" thing ends up not being true. I don't doubt that. But the first turn of the first tier is designed to teach extremely basic things that will be present in every savage encounter. You need at least one boss at the start of the expansion to be both the "this is what a clockspot is" tutorial man and the freebee turn to rope in new raiders.
Hey Frosty
I am just seeing your channel now, but, do not have much high hopes tbh
Ofc, they could add more stress as the fight goes on (since P10 stress is at the later half of the fight) but it doesnt seem constant, at least not first floor
but then, as a Hrothgar player waiting for the headgear to come since ShB.... yeah.
Not this man complaining about the first minute of a boss fight.
Nothing concerning here Frosty. This is normal mode.
So let's keep normal the same too? Probably no carry over to savage?
Frosty, just an opinion, you're a super duper raider so the change you're looking for should be in Unreals, Savage and Ultimates. I'm a casual who has trouble with normal raids and msq dungeon bosses. I'm looking at this preview knowing I'm going to have a hard time.
This content and difficulty level is for us normie, 5hrs a week players
@@TomRupert You can make interesting, easy content. This is bottom of the barrel. They might as well have the voice actor say "Alright everyone, I'm going to cleave this side of the room!!! Please watch out!!!!! >.
@DFell3 wow, no way this is bottom of the barrel. The opening minute that we saw of the normal mode fight is just fine.
Imagine for a moment, you're more than halfway through development for an expansion then you get swarmed with a bunch of feedback while you have a good chunk of the product done. Are you just gonna scrap All of that work that is now done? No! You'd address you hear the feedback, "slip up" about changes coming in 8.0, and try to ease the swelling before a full on implosion. I get it, healthy dose of criticism is always needed. But if you seriously believed for a moment you'd see drastic changes right out of the gate......The Ai Censoring system on this platform would not be happy with my choice of words. If anything we may see changes later in the expansion via 7.4+ that reflect some of that feedback given. Adjustments can happen in development sure, but that is costly. So seriously everyone, look to 8.0 and onward from there for the real reflection of said feedback. Copium, Hopium, whatever word ya wanna call it. But it is better than straight up being a "sore winner" nitpicking every single thing.
The Devs hear us, let 'em cook for 8.0. 7.0 and 7.X is basically set in stone with what it will provide and has been well before that huge wave of feedback late last year even hit the Devs ears.
Most of this feedback has been given by veterans for years but since even casuals are getting upset, NOW they are listening. Years of feedback are being heard now because its not just the veterans anymore. Thats really frustrating.
@@dracodragniel8648 I agree completely, 100000000000000% with you. As I've had my fair share of criticisms over the years. The Devs this time were sorta forced to listen though haha Take that as you will lol (It's both good and a bad thing) But fr, this vid is all smoke and mirrors. Good to talk about, and as a reminder sure. But too soon to be swinging the bat around
They’ve been getting the same feedback for years, they just can’t ignore it any longer.
it's a god damn normal XD
Damn normals should be fun too yeah?
@@MogTalk no their only purpose is for casual to farm just at extreme for normal raids too as a mid dificulty
@@MogTalk in this case, the gameplay should be more fun instead of tedious to make Normals fun not the encounters themselves
More content creator doomer behviour. It's normal mode and just the beginning of the fight. Just wait and see what happens. I'll be more than happy to join in on the negativity after we know everything. However, considering this stuff is already locked in, and we don't see the full picture this is just useless doomer talk.
Zzzzz
Literally the same crap fights with the same stale job design for 4 to 5 years.... I'm sick of this game