Former ballet dancer/now climber here: i’m sure I can say I speak for the majority of dancers (but not all) but stretching prior to class was never about flexibility training/achieving max flexibility. It was more about lighter stretching to wake up the muscles and get the blood flowing to prepare for class. Ballet classes are separated into two portions: barre and centre. Towards the end of barre the structure of the class will typically have us doing deeper passive stretching, followed up dynamic stretching. There is a brief downtime before centre work starts where we can continue with deeper/dynamic stretches. You can call these aforementioned periods our time for “flexibility training”. a solid class should actually go for about an hour and a half and depending on who is teaching, we may not even reach into the deeper level passive/dynamic stretching 30 to 45 minutes in At this point our bodies have gone through so much intricate muscle engagement and are very much warmed up. After all of a is said and done, we have not even hit centre where everything from excruciating adiago, different kind of jumps and turn from “petit” to “grande” come into play. With that being said, I feel like there is a general misconception that warm-up stretches is/should be flexibility training. It’s not. If one wants to work on their flexibility, they need to set additional time aside for that portion. End of the climbing session immediately after your last route/problem is a perfect time since you will get to train with more pliable muscles.
Thank you so much for your contribution! I love this! I totally agree the warm-up stretches are not flexibility training, it is simply preparation for the session. Like other things we do in a warm-up are not "strength training" although they may be strength exercises like pull-ups. I also love the idea of your deeper stretching practice being mixed throughout the session allowing you be really warm and activated. I need to get involved with a ballet class.
@@LatticeTraining getting into climbing with years of classical ballet training definitely gave me an edge as I came in with a very strong core/lower body, a very good sense of balance and body position, flexibility, foot articulation and precise and QUIET movement. Even as guys, we were taught to land from jumps big and small as close to quietly as the girls do Honestly, I think someone committing at least once a week consistently would see lots of benefits. Talking about it makes me want to get back to the studio too. Haha.
I was a professional ballerina with the Béjart ballet. Warming up and stretching is essential to ballet. Stretching before our daily class consisted of dynamic and active stretching. As class progressed we went into deeper and more activating stretches. We only passively stretched after rehersals and performances to relieve our muscles aches and knots and soreness. Passive stretching before any aggressive and highly muscle activating dance movement was not done.
I mostly have a martial arts background, but I also have been training contortion for around 3 years. From my experience stretching completely passive can be counter productive, but having some degree of muscle activation in a passive stretch helps a lot. (for example when I do frog stretches I always think, that I try to lift my knees away from the floor so that my side glutes flex to support the movement) In contortion nowadays most people never really stretch completely passively anymore. I think this also helps a lot to develop the right muscle activation patterns for faster movements in a safe way and saves a lot of time in the long run, because you train active and passive flexibility at the same time. However I think going full end range of motion stretching can be detrimental. I usually just go to the part where it stretches lightly before climbing or other sports and then do my 'I get more flexible' training separately. Also I think what hardly ever gets talked about is to as well train the stretched muscles in their new range of motion. (for example instead of going into a straddle with your arms on the floor, going into a straddle while balancing without hands and then at the lowest position squeezing the legs back in again like you want to close them, but not actually closing them) From my experience this is missing in a lot of talks about flexibility, because even if you have the range of motion passively, but cannot produce force with that lengthened muscle you cannot really use that new range of motion effectively. I really enjoy your videos also! I have always been super into flexibility as well and I hope this will convince a lot of people to take it more seriously.
So for me personally after climbing 20+ years, and also using Dr. Andrew Huberman's recommendations on flexibility, I think dynamic warmups paired with static stretching after the exertion has been the most functional and effective, often I will do the static later in the evening. My biggest reason for this is that a static session that actually improves flexibility really needs 3x30second sets, which takes a while, versus the speed with which you can do a dynamic warmup. Also, static stretches done cold have been shown to not be as effective versus having the body warmed up. I also think this video did not include the research that showed proprioception was reduced by static stretching, unless you were including that in the muscle performance, honestly I think proprioception is a bigger factor with a lot of climbing than simple muscle force. I want to say I appreciate you digging into the research as this is a quickly developing area of athletic performance with a lot of myths, and I am not perfect myself, always trying to improve.
@@WisdomThroughGod I checked the article to be sure, it mentions proprioceptive stretching and activation, so not calling it out per se but to my mind if you can't activate the muscle completely it would absolutely affect the ability to feel through certain moves, that said, this is the link www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1150232/
What we didn't cover in this video was what the whole stretching/longer-term flexibility training picture might look like. I totally agree with you that doing something like 3x30 at the end (or on different days) is required for long term gains. In the other video mentioned I also talk through 'tempo stretching' which I think is even more effective for the climbers I work with (bar a few exceptions). Stretching in a warm-up is just a preparation thing, not really "training". Oh, and I definitely recommend a few mins of cardio/pulse raise before stretching (i.e. warm-up before stretching). As you say, it will be more effective. I have not really looked into the proprioception research. I would say anecdotally I move much better having stretched. Maybe I'll coordinate less on a balancy slab or coordination move?? but I will trade that for efficiency of being able to pull my hips in, get my feet high early or isolate my hips.
My understanding of static stretching is that you want to do it once the muscle is already warm. This also feels better for me and I like to get my heart rate up slightly and engage major muscle groups while doing some compound dynamic stretches. These aren’t aimed at pushing near my limit but rather aimed at feeling out some fun dynamic moves that help me get into flow. I then do some yoga type stretching since that keeps the flow going and I don’t have to think too much while still making space to work on any particularly tight regions. I do some finger boarding and I would have done some tendon gliding in the car heading to gym and between other sets. Lastly I do a bit of strength training with focus on form to make sure all muscles are ready to fire at full capacity. That’s what I do before I get on the wall. I prefer to do some strength training and extensive off the wall warm ups so I can start at a mild intensity when I get on the wall. Generally working on some anabolic range by doing three light climbs in a row where I focus on footwork and flow. I move into some moderate stuff with a skills focus and then move between hard and moderate trying to push skills and movement based on how I feel. With my climbing I focus largely on hang time rather than on grade, I prefer to climb more than climbing harder since that’s where I get more enjoyment and I still project things in between to see where my limitations are and what I can over come. :) Recently I’ve beaten a benchmark I set a year ago where I climbed all the black grades at my gym in one session. I can tell you exactly what the rating is since I haven’t climbed much outdoors. Anyways. Last year I climbed all the blue grades in one session. I can climb two to three grades above this in the gym but something like this really gives me confidence that I’ve not only mastered the movement patterns for that grade but I can also see the ohuge improvement in a year where that was just at the limit of my capability at the time. Cool cool. Stoked. Flexi pants are the best yes!
I've always thought that the loss of power is a bizarre thing for climbers to complain about. Even if you were losing 20-30% power, you're losing it in massive muscle groups which are not the limiting factor in you sending a climb. This is far offset by being free and loose on the wall, allowing you to get great movement economy and use technique better.
@@sebastian-ez1dj it’s definitely full body, but the legs for example are so incredibly strong and powerful that their power can take a hit and still be more than enough. Your fingers or lats on the other hand… not so much
@@sebastian-ez1dj You are right, the best training plan for climbing is starting strength, 5x5s squat deadlift and benchpress. Preferably eating a high caloric surplus, extra mass gain won't matter since the increase in lifted weight during training will be positive relative to your increase in body weight. So obviously you are getting better at bodyweight sports. As for stretching this is terrible for your strength development, and cardio also eats your gains, so if you care about peak performance in climbing, try to climb as little as possible since it is hardly a strength sport, its actually cardio and it gets in the way of performing better in climbing. Walking is cardio as well, so use the car whenever you can, commuting to school, to get to the supermarket, to get to bathroom, honestly i already stepped up my game and got a mobility scooter so i can stop as much cardiovascular activity as possible. Since then my mass gain has been INSANE, and don't get hooked on the health fad, bullshit variety in diets and eating lean is such bullshit, there are only 3 real essential nutrients, fats carbs and protein and protein is the only essential one for muscle, so focus on protein intake, a Gallon of milk a day together with a dozen of chicken breasts, i like to spice my chicken with a side of rice. As long as you eat in excess of 2-3 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass. Of course meal timing with the milk and chicken is a must or you leave gains on the table, so blend that shit into a smoothie which you consume in 10 minute windows throughout the day, i personally just have a long straw i hooked up to my 2 gallon blender and mounted it on my scooter. Sipping constantly keeps the insulin levels high and increases your anabolic window open for maximum mass gain. Oh sorry, i should explain to you noodlebrains that insulin being the strongest anabolic hormone should always be kept as high as possible, i shouldn't have to explain how important this step is but when i see how WEAK and SMALL other climbers are i need to adjust my expectations. Of course you wouldnt' know that you look like you narrowly escaped auschwitz last week, but dont' worry bro, we are all gonna make it.
It really depends on what climbing you are doing and what your individual style of climbing is. Like honestly with indoor bouldering I would say that the 20-30% hit in power is substantial enough to prevent sending certain climbs. Another factor you have to consider is that climbing consists of compound movements that involve multiple joints and muscle groups acting together. A 20-30% decrease in a single muscle group may have a larger impact on certain moves as a whole, not to mention put additional strain on weaker muscles and tissue. This could increase the risk of injury, especially in smaller tissue with low blood flow which will be more of a hassle to heal. Another factor that is being overlooked here is that the fact that there is a 20-30% reduction in maximum power exerted. I will give some sample numbers for the sake of illustrating what I mean. If the maximum power output of a muscle group is reduced from 100 to 80, it does not mean that the athlete can give 60 output with the same effort. The athlete will have to push harder to achieve 60. This is extra strain for the neuromuscular system and can lead to more fatigue. The athlete can think he or she gave 60 but the outcome maybe just 55. Depending on the moves, the lack of 5 could result in non-ideal moves that put unwanted strain in joints and connective tissue. Reduction in power can also affect an athlete's psychological state. The athlete could feel less confident from 'feeling weaker' and we all know how important confidence is climbing. The psychological state could also alter the way the athlete performs specific movements and again increase the risk of injury. It's interesting how the leg muscles are an example. Let's say the static stretching of the hamstrings reduced the power of the biceps femoris which is a hamstring muscle. The hamstrings are one of the muscle groups that often go through static stretching by many people. Although most people will not go anywhere near the physical limit of the biceps femoris for most of their climbs, it is actively used whenever you use your feet to pull and push your body. This is basically EVERY MOVE. Fatigue could build up. Then what happens when you confront a high heel hook in that state? You have to put quite a bit of exertion through that power-reduced and fatigued hamstring and we all know what could happen. One single session probably won't have a drastic impact in your life but bad habits can build up to bigger, badder results. I'm not saying that you should write off static stretching altogether. Play around with pre-workout stretching and see how you feel and try to track your performance in objective ways. Then consciously select specific stretching patterns according to what climbing you have ahead of yourself. If you can pick stretches that work for YOU before YOUR CLIMB based on recorded data, then you can enjoy activities at near-ideal physical and psychological states whilst reducing risk of injury. My stretching routines are very different before lifting weights, going on a hard bouldering session, and before a training session for my climbing. This overtime has built up to results that I can really feel in my workouts and my climbing. I feel very strong and confident on the wall these days.
@@T_gaming28I am happy for Magnus. It's not easy for an athlete that ages out of their competition years to continue making their sport central to their life and lively hood.
Dynamic stretching is basically a warm up stretch that is very effective in order to have a good actual stretch (static/isometric stretching or PNF). I like to warm up the muscles with dynamic stretching for a few mins as it communicates with the nervous system and musculoskeletal system. Then I strengthen with isometric holds under contraction & then lengthen with PNF/static. From my knowledge a lot of gymnasts and contortionist etc.. go by the 1. strengthen then 2. lengthen rule! With that said, I believe static stretching should be performed at the end of a workout/stretch and not the beginning!!
I agree with this. A really good sequency for stretching. Though of course I think static stretching has a place at the beginning too. Not for long term training (that comes at the end or later), but to help access relevant ROM for your sport. Dynamic stretches are great but if I spend time in a frog and pigeon pose (for example) I am far better at keeping my hips in and tight heel hooks that require external rotation. This is very hard to achieve with traditional dynamic stretches. The added benefit is you'll then use your climbing to coordinate, strengthen and consolidate that ROM, so it becomes a very functional ROM for your climbing.
@@LatticeTraining I see what you're saying. For sure, external hip rotation is most effective from static stretching in a frog pose or horse stance etc. I was just saying that I would do a few dynamic stretches for external hip rotation before the actual frog pose. For example; archer squats, lying on one side and doing lateral leg raises, standing knee raises into external hip rotation etc. Similar to standing alternating straight leg raises for our hamstrings before moving into a pike stretch etc! I also believe dynamics are a great warm up to get better result on the full ROM when stretching statically. I think static stretches can be implemented at both start and end of session, but I guess its different for us all depending on our sport/training program and what results we want. Like you've mentioned - static stretching is definitely way more beneficial for improved flexibility. But a few mins of dynamic warm up stretching shouldnt be neglected. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and thoughts in this video. 💪😊
I was into martial arts when I was a kid (this would be the early 90's). We would always start by running and doing little tricks like cart wheels, some push ups etc. Then mobility and 20 sec streches, then technique training. That was often followed by randori (sparring) and some more push ups, pull ups and sit ups. We saved the 60 sek streches for last. It would be interesting to know if what we did back then was completely wrong.
Good summary. I think intuitively most people will know that static stretching prior to climbing is useful for movement. We're not participating in a simple power sport, it's a complex movement sport first and foremost. Almost seems stupid to me that people think moderate stretching during a warmup is harmful to climbing performance.
The whole issue is that stretching lengthens the sarcomere (the smallest muscle unit) and this leads to weaker force contraction. When there is less actin/myosin overlap in the muscle, there is less force generated. An easy analogy would be asking two people to hold hands and then pull away until the grip breaks. If you repeated this activity but only gripping with your finger tips, it would take less force to break the grip. Using the data in the video, this explains why the studies with prolonged duration and more intense stretching had a greater negative effect on force than short duration and less intense stretching did. What does it really mean to your climbing? Probably not much. The muscle fibers are not separated forever and will overlap better with time. More importantly, having increased range of motion during your climb might be worth a small loss in max force. Personally, I do an active warm up of low intensity when I start climbing just to get loose. This includes some easy passive stretching, but mostly for injury prevention rather than improving my range of motion. AFTER my climbing session, I go hard on passive stretching while the muscles are warmed up with the hope that it will increase my overall flexibility. The force reduction is of little consequence at this point.
I like to do some light stretches before bouldering for mobility to prevent injury. Before I started stretching specifically my shoulders and elbows, it seemed like I was always pulling those muscles about every time I’d go. Now, maybe at the time I had bad climbing technique and I just improved; but ever since I started light stretching certain joints, I rarely end up having pain there, so I’ve been light stretching ever since.
Very informative, thanks! I have long been plagued by these sorts of questions, and I'm quite happy to now know that I'm not destroying my gains. Also, it just strikes me as better to gain the extra flexibility temporarily so that you can actively work through a larger range of motion. I've been following the stretching videos and recommendations for a while now, and I really appreciate them!
I don't really like warming up with high intensity stretches. Stretching, if done to improve ROM, is quite exhausting. I like doing stretch sessions on off days and some mild stretches before climbing
Simply a good way to think about it for me is to for warm up do Dynamic and light load static stretching and then after and for improvement do deeper static stretches
Interesting but did with the netball study mentioned, did they remeasure ROM post the second activity run? From my reading muscle reverts to resting pre stretch length within 30 minutes. And is the stretching really lengthening muscle tissue; adding sarcomeres?or is it just a neuronal component? And one further consideration is that if a muscle is 'overly long' then it could be weak at end of range and be prone to injury. No I'm not against stretching as I stretch most days with very limited change. Probably due to bony morphology and genetics.
Very good points. thanks for adding to the conversation. Here is my take; 1. Gains in flexibility at temporary in this situation. BUT should last for your climbing session if you are moving well and using the ROM on the wall. 2. In this situation it is just neural as the intensity and duration is not long enough for structural changes. It does not mean it won't increase ROM for your session though. However if you are working hard with that ROM in your climbing there may be sufficient intensity for structural changes (i.e. sarcomerogenesis), this could build long term changes to your flexibility. You can also do more intense stretching at the end of the session. 3. Pulling hard on a very stretched muscle could definitely increase injury risk. I think this is especially true if you never stretch, then stretch for a specific move, then crank hard. Or when you are new to stretching. Its a bit like the full crimp. You could not use it because mechanically it has more risk. But if you use it a lot, you have better awareness and tolerance in that position. I always say follow up flexibility training with strength training in the new ROM, but this is a long term training approach and takes weeks, months and years.
Try asking a martial artist regarding stretching/flexibility. I can tell you as a prior martial art and stretching instructor, stretching both static and dynamic are necessary for precision and power in movement. Because of my combined (static and dynamic) flexibility from years of martial arts training, I can confidently tell you it definitely translates to the climbing wall. And for those who are more recently learning regarding stretching/flexibility, science/research is not God and doesn't contain all knowledge. 😮Stretching is not new and most research papers and modern strength stretching methods leave out some fantastic stretching methods of yester-year, especially those stretches regarding the utilization of static methods to create more dynamic flexibility. From experience 30-60 seconds of static stretching duration is more than enough time to warm things up, as was stated in another comment stretching and flexibility are different goals. Stretching is for warming or waking up the muscles for training. Also, proprioception is key to dynamic flexibility, which again is a separate goal from stretching.
Hi there, orthopaedic surgeon specialising in sports injury and rehabilitation here. I realise the difficulty of scientific discourse on a medium such as this, but since I value your videos greatly, I thought I'd just suggest some avenues of further research for your team that may help target your advice without accidentally implying injury-exacerbating assumptions. For a start, critiquing individual small N value papers is valuable journal club practice but not broad population level advice-worthy. I would be surprised if any colleagues (also valuable allied physiotherepeutic providers like yourself) would make the leaps suggested here. Addressing static vs. dynamic stretching as an isolated metric is complicated unless you contextualise it within warm and cold stretching, and volume, and personal starting points (etc.). There is an over-focus on "performance" as you've suggested, as it is too variable and very sports dependent. Trying to draw conclusions based on confounding is a reasonable but non-scientific way to discredit the recommendations from that research. Your general advice is well intentioned, but your research validation is drawing severe conclusions from questionable significance findings. Let's suggest further study rather than push recommendations too early in the evidence cycle.
Great point! Science does move slowly, and as a veterinarian we're aware of the iterative nature of science - limited research volume and multiple species of patients doesn't help 😔. Taking your point, even if we correctly acknowledge that there's too many confounding factors (volume, warm/cold etc), and that "performance" as measured in these studies doesn't fit the mould of climbing performance, from a clinician's perspective, you and others still have to make a recommendation to your clients (as opposed to a conclusion). With the current evidence, would you recommend anything different than this video, or that people avoid static stretching for climbing warmups? You mentioned injury-exacerbating assumptions? Speaking as a climber it's the recommendation that matters to me here Edit to add: the funniest story I have of having to make a clinical decision off limited evidence was, as a student, treating a sumatran tiger with a fungal skin infection. There were no studies to refer to, so the zoo vet just used the dose rate from a domestic cat off of my drug textbook 😅
I understand where you coming from but I think it is overly scrupulous and critical to suggest we can't offer recommendations based on the research in this video. I understand many studies have flaws in the methods or research design but in so many cases, especially for rock climbing, the perfect research does not exist. As coaches we are always drawing conclusions based on research, experience and anecdotal evidence. I did not find any meta-analysis or systematic reviews that placed practical stretching practices before climbing activity. I also don't think we were "implying injury-exacerbating assumptions". Though we mentioned it may reduce injury risk, I also stated it was not conclusive. As I am sure you know. While the research is not perfect, it rarely is. I have seen similar critical views when we say things like "strength training reduces injury risk". One comment stated that the studies referenced were not performed in climbers so the information was not applicable. I understand this but if we are going to make any evidence based recommendations we need to make some educated assumptions for our specific situation. Like Skippy has commented; do you give the tiger the same medical dose of a domestic cat because that is the only tested evidence available? I don't believe we are "drawing sever conclusions", we are just giving our take on the subject with general guidelines we follow and disclosing the research we looked at, so you can draw your own conclusions if you want. I would also suggest that now we've presented our case, if you know of better research that exists, that might suggest why static stretching should not be performed before climbing, could you provide this because I did not find it. I think the burden of proof is now on the other side. I am always happy to read both sides and I am always happy to change my mind on these things.
Try adding shaking to your warm up, static and dynamic stretching both have your muscles engaged, staying as loose as possible and shaking yourself allows some joint and ligament movement not restricted by your tight muscles and not under any load, you just look crazy…. Also used to struggle with shoulder impediment until I added wall push shoulder circle stretches in my warm up for what ever that’s worth(a lot to me)..
Some research suggests that whatever the problems with static stretching may be, they can be mitigated by doing static stretching more than 45 minutes before activity, or after the activity is over. Static stretching intended to improve ROM does not need to be done as part of warming up. Contemporary Stretching by Berman (an excellent Kinesiologist/climber) and brown is a good resource, as is Dynamic Stretching by Kovacs.
I've always seen stretching before climbing as more of an "open-up" of my range of motion than an actual "warm-up" for strength purposes. I can't imagine that anyone who takes the time to stretch before a session really believes that it replaces warming up those muscles in order access full power exertion potential. Rather people (or at least I) stretch before-hand because warming up on the wall or with strength based exercises doesn't adequately free up your max range of motion. They compliment each-other, rather than counteract one another.
I feel like it depends on the individuals’ flexibility. I am not insanely flexible and I know that, from experience, if I stretch my cold muscles I have a chance to injure them and over extend them if I don’t warm them up first. My cousin is very flexible so he does long stretches before without issues. I think for climbing, unless you’re planning on doing routes or moves that require a lot of flexibility or you’re not climbing with insane intensity, you’re better off just doing short stretches to wake your muscles up and then just going into warming up by actually climbing and putting your body into realistic positions. That said, I’m not an expert and this is just my take based on what works for me.
I’m a former dancer, and most dancers always warm-up the body before stretching, as in increasing the body temperature, rather than cold-stretching. That’s why we wear leg warmers and those pants that look like tinfoil😅
I believe in stretching after the session, because the loss in power is noticeable for me and we get the same flexibility benefit long term, whether we do before or after. Additionally, an accute increase in passive flexibility does not equate to better movement quality, because when we frog pose on the wall, we don't have the assistance of gravity and need to stretch actively. I'd much rather be able to get force out of my flagging leg than do the splits on the wall. So for me it's active stretch before, passive after. This is all highly speculative and opinion based of course, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as some people here make it out to be
We also advocate for static stretching after a session. Tempo stretching and isometric stretching etc also. This is where we make long term gains in flexibility. That was just not the topic of this video. The idea of stretching before a session is for movement preparation. And don't be concerned about ROM disappearing when you don't have gravity to help. It is still present on the wall later in the session. The same for force from the flagging leg. It may be impacted by a few % but are you likely to flag with 100% of the max force your adductors can produce? You can also include things like Copenhagen planks after your stretches to help recruit the strength back before you start climbing if this is a big concern for you.
@@LatticeTraining Do get the static stretching before is not harmful, but I don´t believe it is that helpful either because of the difference between passive and active ROM, I tend to see more accute improvement in Mobility with activation of the muscles that get you in the position like the abductors than with stretching, which is an aspect you did not cover in the video. Would love an in depth opinion on that too. Saw a lot of success with strength training for flexibility for sure!
@@herrar6595 its a balance of both sides. You can for sure do some activations of the shortening side i.e. the lifting muscles. But mobility is a combination of you ability to shorten one muscle and lengthen the other. An analogy is, you can push a car faster by getting more people behind it and using more "man power". But you can also take the breaks off! Stretching reduces tension via neural mechanisms (e.g. Golgi tendon organ) which 'takes the breaks off' a bit and reduces intrinsic resistance for your lifting muscles. So you can be more mobile by stretching alone, essentially passive ROM is intrinsically linked to your active ROM. Of course you are on the right path by doing activations but you will do better by working both the agonist and antagonist.
Although I am fairly new to climbing, I have a decent amount of expertise in various forms of exercise and have trained some professional athletes. What is interesting is that when I bring up the topic of stretching and provide the literature to back it up along with other anecdotes I have experienced first hand with my own body or with clients, super experienced climbers are active listeners and seek out suggestions to implement to their routines while it is the intermediate level climbers who adamantly reject what I say and adhere to their static stretching. I never go up to random people and force them to do what I say in the gym or climbing gym. Most of the time people come to me and ask so it's funny how they ask first and then disregard what I tell them. It's not like I even tell them what to do unless they explicitly ask for that type of advice. IMO for all types of activities there is a phase where the acknowledgement to one's current routine is more important than suggestions that what they are doing may be wrong in some ways. So these people tend to reject information that is or seems to contradict what they are doing and want support and encouragement. Then again these aren't evil people so the way you present the information can break through to them. So I try to point out what it is they are already doing well before adding modifications. Like I would say how it's awesome that they are putting the dedication and effort to stretching before climbing and how certain stretches they are doing have been proven to be effective for prehabilitation purposes. Then I tell them and show then what they could do to enhance their performance during the climb (if they ask for it) and show them dynamic stretches they could do right before their sessions. It really makes me think about how delivery is just as important as the information itself.
I appreciate the video, great content, but don't get shut down by such a troll behavior. Your videos are awesome! BTW, I saw this little bit more than average guy Ondra doing an awful lot of static stretching...
Something I think is missed by a lot of the people who are using their background in dance or gymnastics to try and argue about the points in this video is that those activities are often choreographed and predictable. Coming from a competitive soccer player we staticly stretched before games because while it may make the muscle weaker near the end range of motion, gaining power in the end range of motion was never the goal, the goal was if you got hit and your muscles were pushed pass the useable range you still wouldn't get injured.
I think a bigger problem is that people associate stiffness with strength, and they are afraid to stretch at all for fear of not being able to control the range of motion, even though it’s normal to already have a greater degree of passive range of motion vs. active, with or without incorporating stretching into their practice. As a former dancer who now weight lifts in a gym, people are always surprised that I can deadlift a considerable amount of weight without my spine flopping around like a wet noodle because I’m so flexible. But being flexible doesn’t mean you can’t be strong and know how to use your core, and your form can break down even if you feel stiff. I use a combination of passive, active and static stretching before and after my practice, I just focus on what range of motion I need for my session, and what feels like it needs work, before weightlifting. Afterwards, I focus more on developing my range of motion further. I think most people would benefit on learning correct form when stretching, and focusing on what ranges of motion they need personally for the activities they will be doing, then worrying about whether every stretch needs to be static or dynamic before or after their session.
I need to stretch a little to be able to get into some positions to begin with, as I'm very inflexible (as I never train it). Stretching afterwards seems useless to me outside of training.
@@PeregrineBF exactly this 💪. I would also add stretching before helps you consolidate your long-term gains within your climbing movement. I practice moving with my flexibility and I want to maximise this before I get on the wall.
Personally I avoid static stretching in my warm-ups because I find it pulls me out of wanting to climb and then when I do start climbing I'm no longer psyched and want to try hard. For this reason my warm-up solely consists of dynamic stretching, hangboarding, campus board latches, and pullups (not in that order) then followed by slowly building up to climbing my projects by climbing progressively harder boulders once I'm feeling ready to go. Usually by this point I'm ready to go and in that head space to try hard because I've been moving for essentially my entire warm-up not just sitting in one position in slight discomfort. Not that I avoid static stretching all together I've just always found it way better after a session or on specific days to train overall flexibility.
Yeah generally we recommend stretching after and on other days. This is where you make the long term gains. Stretching before a session is not designed to replace this! Just to help prepare the body for the session and help you maximise movement efficiency. Personally I noticed a big difference if I don't stretch before climbing.
Not the greatest advocate of stretching as this is not my strongest background, but climbers will gnash teeth about the small and temporary loss of power from including a certain intervention while failing to hydrate, fuel, and recover properly for the session. If a certain range of motion is a limiting factor for you, then do the intervention to get the range of motion necessary... climbers train to failure for strength and do hangs below intensity to promote tendon stiffness and then daily submaximal hangs on the word of a single climber while chugging rather than complete protein. Yeah... it was the static stretching that made you too weak when projecting a limit move for the last four hours...
For that first study.. Holy fuck, 30 minutes of maxxed out stretching? That's a whole workout session, ofc you're performing less compared to not doing all that. Like even if you don't knowingly engage muscles, you will still use some energy when doing static stretches, and a half hour with almost no break, I'm honestly astonished they could still performed 80% of their rested performance. Like, you don't even need to be a researcher to see the very obvious flaws in that methodology 🙄 For the 3% reduction... That might be a statistically significant result for the study, but not generally significant one. I mean, 3% of power is basically a difference of 1.5kg for a 50kg force. So if you're 50kg and you can pull your own weight, it's the pretty much difference of a bottle of water a decent sized shit. IMHO If you wanna blame those 1-3% reduction in your legs n hips(let's be honest, most people are not warming up much more) for not finishing a bouldering route, you got other issues you need to deal with first..
Gotta love someone who heard about one paper 10 years ago calling the professional trainers uneducated and unqualified. Yeah dude, I'm sure you know better than guys constantly following the up-to-date research and constantly observing the effects of various techniques in practice.
One time my wife said a move on a climb was impossible. I was like, "You just need to stretch." Turns out I was right, and I don't hear that too often. XD
We advocate stretching after training too, or on different days to climbing. Before climbing is about session preparation. After climbing is about long-term flexibility training.
Practice your flexibility on the wall!!!! You can do waaayyyy more specific stretches on the wall. Climb super easy stuff with the largest range of motion possible. After your session do whatever "regular" stretches you want. Done.
huh...I think for nearly 20 years I've used the following: *dynamic stretching during warmup (actually helps more with neuromuscular recruitment rather than range of motion) *static stretching after the activity of interest (to push range of motion over the long run) Learned it in P.E. class. Don't remember anything during my B.S. in exercise science that changed my mind, nor anything while certifying as a personal trainer, and I didn't see anything here to the contrary. It doesn't seem like rocket science. I haven't read the studies, trained world-class athletes, etc - so I don't mean to contradict the expertise at Lattice - but I am disappointed by what seems to be a straw man argument of static stretching 1) before climbing or 2) not all. Again, it's not all that complicated...major improvement in ROM is a long-term game, so what is the point of doing your static stretches beforehand and then waiting ~15 minutes to recover your power? I guess whatever works best for each person's schedule and motivation - if the dangling carrot of climbing in the immediate future is the only thing that can get a person to do static stretches, do that :D
For us, it's not a straw man argument. We see it time and time again that people push back against stretching in a warm-up. I'll add two things here which were not mentioned in the video that might help clear things up. 1) Stretching in a warmup is not just "dangling a carrot" to get people to stretch. We did not cover the big picture in this video but I will absolutely get people to develop flexibility either at the end of the session or on different days. I think we both agree/practice this. I will use static stretching at higher volumes/intensity and tempo stretching, PNF, active stretching e.g. isometrics. These tend to be more effective at increasing long term changes. 2) stretching in a warmup is not directly going to do much for long term flexibility. It is about preparation for exercise. Just like doing a few pull ups or press ups might be included but is not part of your strength training. BUT if you can acutely increase the ROM before you climb, you will almost certainly be pulling shapes on the wall in a deeper ROM which will a) consolidate your technique around maximising hip efficiency and b) mean you are actively working the muscles (agonist & antagonist) in the deeper ROM which should also help it be maintained in the long run. If you can strengthen said ROM on the wall it is likely to last for the long term. And of course be very functional for your climbing.
@@LatticeTraining Thanks for the thoughtful response! The details you added here and the overall approach you describe sound excellent and far more comprehensive than what I'd initially gathered. One of my weak points is oversimplifying - I have done that with dynamic and static stretching and stuck with it. You have taken it to a much greater level of nuance, as would be needed for top-performers, and I'm grateful to have the insights you've shared. In the future, I'll keep in mind that static stretching before a strength/power exercise as technical as climbing is - is probably beneficial and at least worth experimenting with.
Why would you start a warm-up with static stretching? Static stretching is passive, literally not getting you warm. It makes no sense. Climbing does require flexibility, but the active type of flexibility. For example, being able to lift your leg and foot up high. Static stretching lengthens the muscles for 15 minutes after which normal muscle length is restored. It is a different variable entirely.
No I would do at least a few minutes of cardio/pulse raising before stretching. Check out the RAMP protocol. Nice simple structure to follow. Also climbing requires active and passive flexibility. Your ability to lift your leg high (for example) is not just about having strong hip flexors, but also having flexibility in the hip extensors. Especially when we are talking about maximising ROM. Your ROM will last longer if you are climbing/moving on the wall.
Also…passive stretching when used properly can help with the neuromuscular response. Let’s say you max out at 45 degree center splits, by training passively you teach your neuromuscular response to not freak out and “tighten up” at 45 degrees.
It's not great but that is the reality of a lot of research within sports science, especially intervention base studies. They are usually performed on Uni students because they are willing to participate. But we don't just come to conclusions based on one study. We look at multiple studies as well as the weaknesses in studies that hold confounding views. This is also combined with our experience and anecdotal evidence as coaches. So yeah, 13 is not great but I don't think its worth throwing in the trash and saying "more research is needed". As coaches we need to make educated decisions now, we can't wait for the research to mature for another 5-10 years. If you know of better more robust research feel free to share with us :)
I don't know why Magnus has decided to carpet bomb UA-cam with Rungne ads, but all it's making me do is actively want to avoid it and any video with it.
They are going heavy on marketing. But I think that is standard practice for launching a new company. And I get why they are doing it on UA-cam, Magnus knows the domain! I appreciate it gets tiring. Pls skip if you are bored of it.
@@LatticeTraining I realize that marketing a new product / brand is one thing, but I think we both know this is a little beyond that. Every UA-camr with over 100 subscribers is currently hocking Rungne or MagDust right now. I'm at the point where I'm not just skipping the ads but skipping the videos. I realize you're not Magnus and I doubt he, or anyone relevant will ever see this comment. But I suggest looking at companies like Tension, who have built a successful company in not that long a span by simply making good products.
Youre gonna get ads no matter what, so wouldnt you rather it be for a quality, relevant product like as opposed to say a squarespace ad or like raid shadow legends? Magnus is successful enough to support creators like him while being able to grow his brand which makes quality stuff, which is a great thing for the climbing content community Tensions a great company but probably arent at a point or have the desire to sponsor creators, but fricticious has!
Former ballet dancer/now climber here: i’m sure I can say I speak for the majority of dancers (but not all) but stretching prior to class was never about flexibility training/achieving max flexibility. It was more about lighter stretching to wake up the muscles and get the blood flowing to prepare for class. Ballet classes are separated into two portions: barre and centre. Towards the end of barre the structure of the class will typically have us doing deeper passive stretching, followed up dynamic stretching. There is a brief downtime before centre work starts where we can continue with deeper/dynamic stretches. You can call these aforementioned periods our time for “flexibility training”. a solid class should actually go for about an hour and a half and depending on who is teaching, we may not even reach into the deeper level passive/dynamic stretching 30 to 45 minutes in At this point our bodies have gone through so much intricate muscle engagement and are very much warmed up. After all of a is said and done, we have not even hit centre where everything from excruciating adiago, different kind of jumps and turn from “petit” to “grande” come into play.
With that being said, I feel like there is a general misconception that warm-up stretches is/should be flexibility training. It’s not. If one wants to work on their flexibility, they need to set additional time aside for that portion. End of the climbing session immediately after your last route/problem is a perfect time since you will get to train with more pliable muscles.
Thank you so much for your contribution! I love this! I totally agree the warm-up stretches are not flexibility training, it is simply preparation for the session. Like other things we do in a warm-up are not "strength training" although they may be strength exercises like pull-ups. I also love the idea of your deeper stretching practice being mixed throughout the session allowing you be really warm and activated.
I need to get involved with a ballet class.
As another former dancer, I agree with everything you've said.
@@LatticeTraining getting into climbing with years of classical ballet training definitely gave me an edge as I came in with a very strong core/lower body, a very good sense of balance and body position, flexibility, foot articulation and precise and QUIET movement. Even as guys, we were taught to land from jumps big and small as close to quietly as the girls do
Honestly, I think someone committing at least once a week consistently would see lots of benefits. Talking about it makes me want to get back to the studio too. Haha.
As a former gymnast turned climber, you could not have put it better
I guess dancers don't have the typical elephant like foot placing that usual beginners (and their shoes) suffer from.
I was a professional ballerina with the Béjart ballet. Warming up and stretching is essential to ballet. Stretching before our daily class consisted of dynamic and active stretching. As class progressed we went into deeper and more activating stretches. We only passively stretched after rehersals and performances to relieve our muscles aches and knots and soreness. Passive stretching before any aggressive and highly muscle activating dance movement was not done.
I mostly have a martial arts background, but I also have been training contortion for around 3 years. From my experience stretching completely passive can be counter productive, but having some degree of muscle activation in a passive stretch helps a lot. (for example when I do frog stretches I always think, that I try to lift my knees away from the floor so that my side glutes flex to support the movement) In contortion nowadays most people never really stretch completely passively anymore. I think this also helps a lot to develop the right muscle activation patterns for faster movements in a safe way and saves a lot of time in the long run, because you train active and passive flexibility at the same time. However I think going full end range of motion stretching can be detrimental. I usually just go to the part where it stretches lightly before climbing or other sports and then do my 'I get more flexible' training separately.
Also I think what hardly ever gets talked about is to as well train the stretched muscles in their new range of motion. (for example instead of going into a straddle with your arms on the floor, going into a straddle while balancing without hands and then at the lowest position squeezing the legs back in again like you want to close them, but not actually closing them) From my experience this is missing in a lot of talks about flexibility, because even if you have the range of motion passively, but cannot produce force with that lengthened muscle you cannot really use that new range of motion effectively.
I really enjoy your videos also! I have always been super into flexibility as well and I hope this will convince a lot of people to take it more seriously.
So for me personally after climbing 20+ years, and also using Dr. Andrew Huberman's recommendations on flexibility, I think dynamic warmups paired with static stretching after the exertion has been the most functional and effective, often I will do the static later in the evening. My biggest reason for this is that a static session that actually improves flexibility really needs 3x30second sets, which takes a while, versus the speed with which you can do a dynamic warmup. Also, static stretches done cold have been shown to not be as effective versus having the body warmed up. I also think this video did not include the research that showed proprioception was reduced by static stretching, unless you were including that in the muscle performance, honestly I think proprioception is a bigger factor with a lot of climbing than simple muscle force. I want to say I appreciate you digging into the research as this is a quickly developing area of athletic performance with a lot of myths, and I am not perfect myself, always trying to improve.
Great comment!! I didn’t know that proprio was increased from dynamic warm ups 👀
@@WisdomThroughGod I checked the article to be sure, it mentions proprioceptive stretching and activation, so not calling it out per se but to my mind if you can't activate the muscle completely it would absolutely affect the ability to feel through certain moves, that said, this is the link www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1150232/
What we didn't cover in this video was what the whole stretching/longer-term flexibility training picture might look like. I totally agree with you that doing something like 3x30 at the end (or on different days) is required for long term gains. In the other video mentioned I also talk through 'tempo stretching' which I think is even more effective for the climbers I work with (bar a few exceptions). Stretching in a warm-up is just a preparation thing, not really "training". Oh, and I definitely recommend a few mins of cardio/pulse raise before stretching (i.e. warm-up before stretching). As you say, it will be more effective.
I have not really looked into the proprioception research. I would say anecdotally I move much better having stretched. Maybe I'll coordinate less on a balancy slab or coordination move?? but I will trade that for efficiency of being able to pull my hips in, get my feet high early or isolate my hips.
My understanding of static stretching is that you want to do it once the muscle is already warm. This also feels better for me and I like to get my heart rate up slightly and engage major muscle groups while doing some compound dynamic stretches. These aren’t aimed at pushing near my limit but rather aimed at feeling out some fun dynamic moves that help me get into flow.
I then do some yoga type stretching since that keeps the flow going and I don’t have to think too much while still making space to work on any particularly tight regions.
I do some finger boarding and I would have done some tendon gliding in the car heading to gym and between other sets.
Lastly I do a bit of strength training with focus on form to make sure all muscles are ready to fire at full capacity.
That’s what I do before I get on the wall.
I prefer to do some strength training and extensive off the wall warm ups so I can start at a mild intensity when I get on the wall.
Generally working on some anabolic range by doing three light climbs in a row where I focus on footwork and flow.
I move into some moderate stuff with a skills focus and then move between hard and moderate trying to push skills and movement based on how I feel.
With my climbing I focus largely on hang time rather than on grade, I prefer to climb more than climbing harder since that’s where I get more enjoyment and I still project things in between to see where my limitations are and what I can over come. :)
Recently I’ve beaten a benchmark I set a year ago where I climbed all the black grades at my gym in one session. I can tell you exactly what the rating is since I haven’t climbed much outdoors. Anyways. Last year I climbed all the blue grades in one session. I can climb two to three grades above this in the gym but something like this really gives me confidence that I’ve not only mastered the movement patterns for that grade but I can also see the ohuge improvement in a year where that was just at the limit of my capability at the time.
Cool cool. Stoked. Flexi pants are the best yes!
I've always thought that the loss of power is a bizarre thing for climbers to complain about. Even if you were losing 20-30% power, you're losing it in massive muscle groups which are not the limiting factor in you sending a climb. This is far offset by being free and loose on the wall, allowing you to get great movement economy and use technique better.
Alex megos has this same mindset
what you’re saying is simply incorrect. climbing is a full body sport
@@sebastian-ez1dj it’s definitely full body, but the legs for example are so incredibly strong and powerful that their power can take a hit and still be more than enough. Your fingers or lats on the other hand… not so much
@@sebastian-ez1dj You are right, the best training plan for climbing is starting strength, 5x5s squat deadlift and benchpress. Preferably eating a high caloric surplus, extra mass gain won't matter since the increase in lifted weight during training will be positive relative to your increase in body weight. So obviously you are getting better at bodyweight sports.
As for stretching this is terrible for your strength development, and cardio also eats your gains, so if you care about peak performance in climbing, try to climb as little as possible since it is hardly a strength sport, its actually cardio and it gets in the way of performing better in climbing. Walking is cardio as well, so use the car whenever you can, commuting to school, to get to the supermarket, to get to bathroom, honestly i already stepped up my game and got a mobility scooter so i can stop as much cardiovascular activity as possible. Since then my mass gain has been INSANE, and don't get hooked on the health fad, bullshit variety in diets and eating lean is such bullshit, there are only 3 real essential nutrients, fats carbs and protein and protein is the only essential one for muscle, so focus on protein intake, a Gallon of milk a day together with a dozen of chicken breasts, i like to spice my chicken with a side of rice. As long as you eat in excess of 2-3 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass.
Of course meal timing with the milk and chicken is a must or you leave gains on the table, so blend that shit into a smoothie which you consume in 10 minute windows throughout the day, i personally just have a long straw i hooked up to my 2 gallon blender and mounted it on my scooter. Sipping constantly keeps the insulin levels high and increases your anabolic window open for maximum mass gain.
Oh sorry, i should explain to you noodlebrains that insulin being the strongest anabolic hormone should always be kept as high as possible, i shouldn't have to explain how important this step is but when i see how WEAK and SMALL other climbers are i need to adjust my expectations. Of course you wouldnt' know that you look like you narrowly escaped auschwitz last week, but dont' worry bro, we are all gonna make it.
It really depends on what climbing you are doing and what your individual style of climbing is. Like honestly with indoor bouldering I would say that the 20-30% hit in power is substantial enough to prevent sending certain climbs.
Another factor you have to consider is that climbing consists of compound movements that involve multiple joints and muscle groups acting together. A 20-30% decrease in a single muscle group may have a larger impact on certain moves as a whole, not to mention put additional strain on weaker muscles and tissue. This could increase the risk of injury, especially in smaller tissue with low blood flow which will be more of a hassle to heal.
Another factor that is being overlooked here is that the fact that there is a 20-30% reduction in maximum power exerted. I will give some sample numbers for the sake of illustrating what I mean. If the maximum power output of a muscle group is reduced from 100 to 80, it does not mean that the athlete can give 60 output with the same effort. The athlete will have to push harder to achieve 60. This is extra strain for the neuromuscular system and can lead to more fatigue. The athlete can think he or she gave 60 but the outcome maybe just 55. Depending on the moves, the lack of 5 could result in non-ideal moves that put unwanted strain in joints and connective tissue.
Reduction in power can also affect an athlete's psychological state. The athlete could feel less confident from 'feeling weaker' and we all know how important confidence is climbing. The psychological state could also alter the way the athlete performs specific movements and again increase the risk of injury.
It's interesting how the leg muscles are an example. Let's say the static stretching of the hamstrings reduced the power of the biceps femoris which is a hamstring muscle. The hamstrings are one of the muscle groups that often go through static stretching by many people. Although most people will not go anywhere near the physical limit of the biceps femoris for most of their climbs, it is actively used whenever you use your feet to pull and push your body. This is basically EVERY MOVE. Fatigue could build up. Then what happens when you confront a high heel hook in that state? You have to put quite a bit of exertion through that power-reduced and fatigued hamstring and we all know what could happen.
One single session probably won't have a drastic impact in your life but bad habits can build up to bigger, badder results. I'm not saying that you should write off static stretching altogether. Play around with pre-workout stretching and see how you feel and try to track your performance in objective ways. Then consciously select specific stretching patterns according to what climbing you have ahead of yourself. If you can pick stretches that work for YOU before YOUR CLIMB based on recorded data, then you can enjoy activities at near-ideal physical and psychological states whilst reducing risk of injury.
My stretching routines are very different before lifting weights, going on a hard bouldering session, and before a training session for my climbing. This overtime has built up to results that I can really feel in my workouts and my climbing. I feel very strong and confident on the wall these days.
Damn, every climbing video is now an ad for rungne.
Norse Climbing Mafia
And it's great
@@T_gaming28I am happy for Magnus. It's not easy for an athlete that ages out of their competition years to continue making their sport central to their life and lively hood.
Better than raid shadow legends
It's boring though... Every climber at the gym on AG1, wearing the same trousers training on the same app. The modern Homogenised life.
I recently had a debate about stretching before climbing, so I'm glad to see this and know that it is helping.
Dynamic stretching is basically a warm up stretch that is very effective in order to have a good actual stretch (static/isometric stretching or PNF). I like to warm up the muscles with dynamic stretching for a few mins as it communicates with the nervous system and musculoskeletal system. Then I strengthen with isometric holds under contraction & then lengthen with PNF/static. From my knowledge a lot of gymnasts and contortionist etc.. go by the 1. strengthen then 2. lengthen rule! With that said, I believe static stretching should be performed at the end of a workout/stretch and not the beginning!!
I agree with this. A really good sequency for stretching. Though of course I think static stretching has a place at the beginning too. Not for long term training (that comes at the end or later), but to help access relevant ROM for your sport. Dynamic stretches are great but if I spend time in a frog and pigeon pose (for example) I am far better at keeping my hips in and tight heel hooks that require external rotation. This is very hard to achieve with traditional dynamic stretches. The added benefit is you'll then use your climbing to coordinate, strengthen and consolidate that ROM, so it becomes a very functional ROM for your climbing.
@@LatticeTraining I see what you're saying. For sure, external hip rotation is most effective from static stretching in a frog pose or horse stance etc. I was just saying that I would do a few dynamic stretches for external hip rotation before the actual frog pose. For example; archer squats, lying on one side and doing lateral leg raises, standing knee raises into external hip rotation etc. Similar to standing alternating straight leg raises for our hamstrings before moving into a pike stretch etc! I also believe dynamics are a great warm up to get better result on the full ROM when stretching statically.
I think static stretches can be implemented at both start and end of session, but I guess its different for us all depending on our sport/training program and what results we want.
Like you've mentioned - static stretching is definitely way more beneficial for improved flexibility. But a few mins of dynamic warm up stretching shouldnt be neglected.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and thoughts in this video. 💪😊
I'm missing nerve flossing in this debate, which is the most important part of my warmup (and probably most people with a sitting job).
I was into martial arts when I was a kid (this would be the early 90's). We would always start by running and doing little tricks like cart wheels, some push ups etc. Then mobility and 20 sec streches, then technique training. That was often followed by randori (sparring) and some more push ups, pull ups and sit ups. We saved the 60 sek streches for last. It would be interesting to know if what we did back then was completely wrong.
Good summary. I think intuitively most people will know that static stretching prior to climbing is useful for movement. We're not participating in a simple power sport, it's a complex movement sport first and foremost. Almost seems stupid to me that people think moderate stretching during a warmup is harmful to climbing performance.
The whole issue is that stretching lengthens the sarcomere (the smallest muscle unit) and this leads to weaker force contraction. When there is less actin/myosin overlap in the muscle, there is less force generated. An easy analogy would be asking two people to hold hands and then pull away until the grip breaks. If you repeated this activity but only gripping with your finger tips, it would take less force to break the grip.
Using the data in the video, this explains why the studies with prolonged duration and more intense stretching had a greater negative effect on force than short duration and less intense stretching did.
What does it really mean to your climbing? Probably not much. The muscle fibers are not separated forever and will overlap better with time. More importantly, having increased range of motion during your climb might be worth a small loss in max force.
Personally, I do an active warm up of low intensity when I start climbing just to get loose. This includes some easy passive stretching, but mostly for injury prevention rather than improving my range of motion. AFTER my climbing session, I go hard on passive stretching while the muscles are warmed up with the hope that it will increase my overall flexibility. The force reduction is of little consequence at this point.
I like to do some light stretches before bouldering for mobility to prevent injury. Before I started stretching specifically my shoulders and elbows, it seemed like I was always pulling those muscles about every time I’d go. Now, maybe at the time I had bad climbing technique and I just improved; but ever since I started light stretching certain joints, I rarely end up having pain there, so I’ve been light stretching ever since.
Very informative, thanks! I have long been plagued by these sorts of questions, and I'm quite happy to now know that I'm not destroying my gains. Also, it just strikes me as better to gain the extra flexibility temporarily so that you can actively work through a larger range of motion. I've been following the stretching videos and recommendations for a while now, and I really appreciate them!
Great as ever! Mercedes Polmier, also great sorce of information about climbing specific stretching🙏
thanks for the research, this was very intersting.
I don't really like warming up with high intensity stretches. Stretching, if done to improve ROM, is quite exhausting. I like doing stretch sessions on off days and some mild stretches before climbing
Simply a good way to think about it for me is to for warm up do Dynamic and light load static stretching and then after and for improvement do deeper static stretches
Interesting but did with the netball study mentioned, did they remeasure ROM post the second activity run? From my reading muscle reverts to resting pre stretch length within 30 minutes. And is the stretching really lengthening muscle tissue; adding sarcomeres?or is it just a neuronal component? And one further consideration is that if a muscle is 'overly long' then it could be weak at end of range and be prone to injury. No I'm not against stretching as I stretch most days with very limited change. Probably due to bony morphology and genetics.
Very good points. thanks for adding to the conversation. Here is my take;
1. Gains in flexibility at temporary in this situation. BUT should last for your climbing session if you are moving well and using the ROM on the wall.
2. In this situation it is just neural as the intensity and duration is not long enough for structural changes. It does not mean it won't increase ROM for your session though. However if you are working hard with that ROM in your climbing there may be sufficient intensity for structural changes (i.e. sarcomerogenesis), this could build long term changes to your flexibility. You can also do more intense stretching at the end of the session.
3. Pulling hard on a very stretched muscle could definitely increase injury risk. I think this is especially true if you never stretch, then stretch for a specific move, then crank hard. Or when you are new to stretching. Its a bit like the full crimp. You could not use it because mechanically it has more risk. But if you use it a lot, you have better awareness and tolerance in that position. I always say follow up flexibility training with strength training in the new ROM, but this is a long term training approach and takes weeks, months and years.
Try asking a martial artist regarding stretching/flexibility. I can tell you as a prior martial art and stretching instructor, stretching both static and dynamic are necessary for precision and power in movement. Because of my combined (static and dynamic) flexibility from years of martial arts training, I can confidently tell you it definitely translates to the climbing wall. And for those who are more recently learning regarding stretching/flexibility, science/research is not God and doesn't contain all knowledge.
😮Stretching is not new and most research papers and modern strength stretching methods leave out some fantastic stretching methods of yester-year, especially those stretches regarding the utilization of static methods to create more dynamic flexibility. From experience 30-60 seconds of static stretching duration is more than enough time to warm things up, as was stated in another comment stretching and flexibility are different goals. Stretching is for warming or waking up the muscles for training. Also, proprioception is key to dynamic flexibility, which again is a separate goal from stretching.
Hi there, orthopaedic surgeon specialising in sports injury and rehabilitation here. I realise the difficulty of scientific discourse on a medium such as this, but since I value your videos greatly, I thought I'd just suggest some avenues of further research for your team that may help target your advice without accidentally implying injury-exacerbating assumptions.
For a start, critiquing individual small N value papers is valuable journal club practice but not broad population level advice-worthy. I would be surprised if any colleagues (also valuable allied physiotherepeutic providers like yourself) would make the leaps suggested here. Addressing static vs. dynamic stretching as an isolated metric is complicated unless you contextualise it within warm and cold stretching, and volume, and personal starting points (etc.). There is an over-focus on "performance" as you've suggested, as it is too variable and very sports dependent. Trying to draw conclusions based on confounding is a reasonable but non-scientific way to discredit the recommendations from that research.
Your general advice is well intentioned, but your research validation is drawing severe conclusions from questionable significance findings. Let's suggest further study rather than push recommendations too early in the evidence cycle.
classic lattice lol. if it’s not directly coming out of ollie’s mouth it’s usually pretty full of massive conclusions drawn from scant evidence
Great point! Science does move slowly, and as a veterinarian we're aware of the iterative nature of science - limited research volume and multiple species of patients doesn't help 😔.
Taking your point, even if we correctly acknowledge that there's too many confounding factors (volume, warm/cold etc), and that "performance" as measured in these studies doesn't fit the mould of climbing performance, from a clinician's perspective, you and others still have to make a recommendation to your clients (as opposed to a conclusion).
With the current evidence, would you recommend anything different than this video, or that people avoid static stretching for climbing warmups? You mentioned injury-exacerbating assumptions?
Speaking as a climber it's the recommendation that matters to me here
Edit to add: the funniest story I have of having to make a clinical decision off limited evidence was, as a student, treating a sumatran tiger with a fungal skin infection. There were no studies to refer to, so the zoo vet just used the dose rate from a domestic cat off of my drug textbook 😅
@@sebastian-ez1djthere's no need to be so combative..
I understand where you coming from but I think it is overly scrupulous and critical to suggest we can't offer recommendations based on the research in this video. I understand many studies have flaws in the methods or research design but in so many cases, especially for rock climbing, the perfect research does not exist. As coaches we are always drawing conclusions based on research, experience and anecdotal evidence. I did not find any meta-analysis or systematic reviews that placed practical stretching practices before climbing activity. I also don't think we were "implying injury-exacerbating assumptions". Though we mentioned it may reduce injury risk, I also stated it was not conclusive. As I am sure you know.
While the research is not perfect, it rarely is. I have seen similar critical views when we say things like "strength training reduces injury risk". One comment stated that the studies referenced were not performed in climbers so the information was not applicable. I understand this but if we are going to make any evidence based recommendations we need to make some educated assumptions for our specific situation. Like Skippy has commented; do you give the tiger the same medical dose of a domestic cat because that is the only tested evidence available?
I don't believe we are "drawing sever conclusions", we are just giving our take on the subject with general guidelines we follow and disclosing the research we looked at, so you can draw your own conclusions if you want. I would also suggest that now we've presented our case, if you know of better research that exists, that might suggest why static stretching should not be performed before climbing, could you provide this because I did not find it. I think the burden of proof is now on the other side. I am always happy to read both sides and I am always happy to change my mind on these things.
Try adding shaking to your warm up, static and dynamic stretching both have your muscles engaged, staying as loose as possible and shaking yourself allows some joint and ligament movement not restricted by your tight muscles and not under any load, you just look crazy…. Also used to struggle with shoulder impediment until I added wall push shoulder circle stretches in my warm up for what ever that’s worth(a lot to me)..
Some research suggests that whatever the problems with static stretching may be, they can be mitigated by doing static stretching more than 45 minutes before activity, or after the activity is over. Static stretching intended to improve ROM does not need to be done as part of warming up. Contemporary Stretching by Berman (an excellent Kinesiologist/climber) and brown is a good resource, as is Dynamic Stretching by Kovacs.
I've always seen stretching before climbing as more of an "open-up" of my range of motion than an actual "warm-up" for strength purposes. I can't imagine that anyone who takes the time to stretch before a session really believes that it replaces warming up those muscles in order access full power exertion potential. Rather people (or at least I) stretch before-hand because warming up on the wall or with strength based exercises doesn't adequately free up your max range of motion. They compliment each-other, rather than counteract one another.
Is it possible to get a link to every studie you referred to in this video? Or are all studies shown in the video?
I feel like it depends on the individuals’ flexibility. I am not insanely flexible and I know that, from experience, if I stretch my cold muscles I have a chance to injure them and over extend them if I don’t warm them up first. My cousin is very flexible so he does long stretches before without issues. I think for climbing, unless you’re planning on doing routes or moves that require a lot of flexibility or you’re not climbing with insane intensity, you’re better off just doing short stretches to wake your muscles up and then just going into warming up by actually climbing and putting your body into realistic positions. That said, I’m not an expert and this is just my take based on what works for me.
I’m a former dancer, and most dancers always warm-up the body before stretching, as in increasing the body temperature, rather than cold-stretching. That’s why we wear leg warmers and those pants that look like tinfoil😅
I believe in stretching after the session, because the loss in power is noticeable for me and we get the same flexibility benefit long term, whether we do before or after. Additionally, an accute increase in passive flexibility does not equate to better movement quality, because when we frog pose on the wall, we don't have the assistance of gravity and need to stretch actively. I'd much rather be able to get force out of my flagging leg than do the splits on the wall. So for me it's active stretch before, passive after. This is all highly speculative and opinion based of course, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as some people here make it out to be
We also advocate for static stretching after a session. Tempo stretching and isometric stretching etc also. This is where we make long term gains in flexibility. That was just not the topic of this video. The idea of stretching before a session is for movement preparation. And don't be concerned about ROM disappearing when you don't have gravity to help. It is still present on the wall later in the session. The same for force from the flagging leg. It may be impacted by a few % but are you likely to flag with 100% of the max force your adductors can produce? You can also include things like Copenhagen planks after your stretches to help recruit the strength back before you start climbing if this is a big concern for you.
@@LatticeTraining Do get the static stretching before is not harmful, but I don´t believe it is that helpful either because of the difference between passive and active ROM, I tend to see more accute improvement in Mobility with activation of the muscles that get you in the position like the abductors than with stretching, which is an aspect you did not cover in the video. Would love an in depth opinion on that too. Saw a lot of success with strength training for flexibility for sure!
@@herrar6595 its a balance of both sides. You can for sure do some activations of the shortening side i.e. the lifting muscles. But mobility is a combination of you ability to shorten one muscle and lengthen the other. An analogy is, you can push a car faster by getting more people behind it and using more "man power". But you can also take the breaks off! Stretching reduces tension via neural mechanisms (e.g. Golgi tendon organ) which 'takes the breaks off' a bit and reduces intrinsic resistance for your lifting muscles. So you can be more mobile by stretching alone, essentially passive ROM is intrinsically linked to your active ROM. Of course you are on the right path by doing activations but you will do better by working both the agonist and antagonist.
Although I am fairly new to climbing, I have a decent amount of expertise in various forms of exercise and have trained some professional athletes. What is interesting is that when I bring up the topic of stretching and provide the literature to back it up along with other anecdotes I have experienced first hand with my own body or with clients, super experienced climbers are active listeners and seek out suggestions to implement to their routines while it is the intermediate level climbers who adamantly reject what I say and adhere to their static stretching.
I never go up to random people and force them to do what I say in the gym or climbing gym. Most of the time people come to me and ask so it's funny how they ask first and then disregard what I tell them. It's not like I even tell them what to do unless they explicitly ask for that type of advice.
IMO for all types of activities there is a phase where the acknowledgement to one's current routine is more important than suggestions that what they are doing may be wrong in some ways. So these people tend to reject information that is or seems to contradict what they are doing and want support and encouragement. Then again these aren't evil people so the way you present the information can break through to them. So I try to point out what it is they are already doing well before adding modifications.
Like I would say how it's awesome that they are putting the dedication and effort to stretching before climbing and how certain stretches they are doing have been proven to be effective for prehabilitation purposes. Then I tell them and show then what they could do to enhance their performance during the climb (if they ask for it) and show them dynamic stretches they could do right before their sessions.
It really makes me think about how delivery is just as important as the information itself.
I appreciate the video, great content, but don't get shut down by such a troll behavior. Your videos are awesome! BTW, I saw this little bit more than average guy Ondra doing an awful lot of static stretching...
Something I think is missed by a lot of the people who are using their background in dance or gymnastics to try and argue about the points in this video is that those activities are often choreographed and predictable. Coming from a competitive soccer player we staticly stretched before games because while it may make the muscle weaker near the end range of motion, gaining power in the end range of motion was never the goal, the goal was if you got hit and your muscles were pushed pass the useable range you still wouldn't get injured.
Do not forget stretches and mobility exercises AFTER workout. Especially if you are working to increase your range of motion.
Immediately after or 30 minutes later when I’m home?
Yeah, i need to stretch statically beforehand to climb well. I like to do it between warmup climbs.
I think a bigger problem is that people associate stiffness with strength, and they are afraid to stretch at all for fear of not being able to control the range of motion, even though it’s normal to already have a greater degree of passive range of motion vs. active, with or without incorporating stretching into their practice. As a former dancer who now weight lifts in a gym, people are always surprised that I can deadlift a considerable amount of weight without my spine flopping around like a wet noodle because I’m so flexible. But being flexible doesn’t mean you can’t be strong and know how to use your core, and your form can break down even if you feel stiff.
I use a combination of passive, active and static stretching before and after my practice, I just focus on what range of motion I need for my session, and what feels like it needs work, before weightlifting. Afterwards, I focus more on developing my range of motion further. I think most people would benefit on learning correct form when stretching, and focusing on what ranges of motion they need personally for the activities they will be doing, then worrying about whether every stretch needs to be static or dynamic before or after their session.
sample size of reference materials? (MANOVA instead?)
Personally I couldn't care less about studies, my body feels way better and more ready to climb if I do 30mins of passive stretching before I climb.
Why not just stretch afterwards?
The idea is it reduces injury for that session. Doing it after the session doesn't help.
Mobility is increased highly directly after stretching and you want that mobility for climbing.
I need to stretch a little to be able to get into some positions to begin with, as I'm very inflexible (as I never train it). Stretching afterwards seems useless to me outside of training.
@@chaozzah Stretching afterwards helps increase flexibility long-term. Stretching before has less effect, but is immediate.
@@PeregrineBF exactly this 💪. I would also add stretching before helps you consolidate your long-term gains within your climbing movement. I practice moving with my flexibility and I want to maximise this before I get on the wall.
Thanks for the research and great videos!
Personally I avoid static stretching in my warm-ups because I find it pulls me out of wanting to climb and then when I do start climbing I'm no longer psyched and want to try hard. For this reason my warm-up solely consists of dynamic stretching, hangboarding, campus board latches, and pullups (not in that order) then followed by slowly building up to climbing my projects by climbing progressively harder boulders once I'm feeling ready to go. Usually by this point I'm ready to go and in that head space to try hard because I've been moving for essentially my entire warm-up not just sitting in one position in slight discomfort.
Not that I avoid static stretching all together I've just always found it way better after a session or on specific days to train overall flexibility.
Yeah generally we recommend stretching after and on other days. This is where you make the long term gains. Stretching before a session is not designed to replace this! Just to help prepare the body for the session and help you maximise movement efficiency. Personally I noticed a big difference if I don't stretch before climbing.
Not the greatest advocate of stretching as this is not my strongest background, but climbers will gnash teeth about the small and temporary loss of power from including a certain intervention while failing to hydrate, fuel, and recover properly for the session. If a certain range of motion is a limiting factor for you, then do the intervention to get the range of motion necessary... climbers train to failure for strength and do hangs below intensity to promote tendon stiffness and then daily submaximal hangs on the word of a single climber while chugging rather than complete protein. Yeah... it was the static stretching that made you too weak when projecting a limit move for the last four hours...
Well done, Josh! 😊
not finished with the video yet, but what the hell was that close up of the runge logo?? lol
ooo I see haha just got to the sponsor section...
If I don't stretch before climbing, I am so much more likely to pull an adductor or hamstring...
same
For that first study.. Holy fuck, 30 minutes of maxxed out stretching? That's a whole workout session, ofc you're performing less compared to not doing all that. Like even if you don't knowingly engage muscles, you will still use some energy when doing static stretches, and a half hour with almost no break, I'm honestly astonished they could still performed 80% of their rested performance. Like, you don't even need to be a researcher to see the very obvious flaws in that methodology 🙄
For the 3% reduction... That might be a statistically significant result for the study, but not generally significant one. I mean, 3% of power is basically a difference of 1.5kg for a 50kg force. So if you're 50kg and you can pull your own weight, it's the pretty much difference of a bottle of water a decent sized shit.
IMHO If you wanna blame those 1-3% reduction in your legs n hips(let's be honest, most people are not warming up much more) for not finishing a bouldering route, you got other issues you need to deal with first..
Gotta love someone who heard about one paper 10 years ago calling the professional trainers uneducated and unqualified. Yeah dude, I'm sure you know better than guys constantly following the up-to-date research and constantly observing the effects of various techniques in practice.
One time my wife said a move on a climb was impossible. I was like, "You just need to stretch." Turns out I was right, and I don't hear that too often. XD
i dont need that stretching in my warm up... i am stretching on the wall as a warm up.
....I prefer stretching AFTER my training.... Static stretch, 1 set of 30 - 40 seconds on each muscle I trained. To cool down and stay mobile...
We advocate stretching after training too, or on different days to climbing. Before climbing is about session preparation. After climbing is about long-term flexibility training.
Practice your flexibility on the wall!!!! You can do waaayyyy more specific stretches on the wall. Climb super easy stuff with the largest range of motion possible.
After your session do whatever "regular" stretches you want.
Done.
We all just wanted an excuse to just not warmup and stretch before climbing :( ;)
huh...I think for nearly 20 years I've used the following:
*dynamic stretching during warmup (actually helps more with neuromuscular recruitment rather than range of motion)
*static stretching after the activity of interest (to push range of motion over the long run)
Learned it in P.E. class. Don't remember anything during my B.S. in exercise science that changed my mind, nor anything while certifying as a personal trainer, and I didn't see anything here to the contrary. It doesn't seem like rocket science. I haven't read the studies, trained world-class athletes, etc - so I don't mean to contradict the expertise at Lattice - but I am disappointed by what seems to be a straw man argument of static stretching 1) before climbing or 2) not all. Again, it's not all that complicated...major improvement in ROM is a long-term game, so what is the point of doing your static stretches beforehand and then waiting ~15 minutes to recover your power? I guess whatever works best for each person's schedule and motivation - if the dangling carrot of climbing in the immediate future is the only thing that can get a person to do static stretches, do that :D
For us, it's not a straw man argument. We see it time and time again that people push back against stretching in a warm-up. I'll add two things here which were not mentioned in the video that might help clear things up. 1) Stretching in a warmup is not just "dangling a carrot" to get people to stretch. We did not cover the big picture in this video but I will absolutely get people to develop flexibility either at the end of the session or on different days. I think we both agree/practice this. I will use static stretching at higher volumes/intensity and tempo stretching, PNF, active stretching e.g. isometrics. These tend to be more effective at increasing long term changes. 2) stretching in a warmup is not directly going to do much for long term flexibility. It is about preparation for exercise. Just like doing a few pull ups or press ups might be included but is not part of your strength training. BUT if you can acutely increase the ROM before you climb, you will almost certainly be pulling shapes on the wall in a deeper ROM which will a) consolidate your technique around maximising hip efficiency and b) mean you are actively working the muscles (agonist & antagonist) in the deeper ROM which should also help it be maintained in the long run. If you can strengthen said ROM on the wall it is likely to last for the long term. And of course be very functional for your climbing.
@@LatticeTraining Thanks for the thoughtful response! The details you added here and the overall approach you describe sound excellent and far more comprehensive than what I'd initially gathered. One of my weak points is oversimplifying - I have done that with dynamic and static stretching and stuck with it. You have taken it to a much greater level of nuance, as would be needed for top-performers, and I'm grateful to have the insights you've shared. In the future, I'll keep in mind that static stretching before a strength/power exercise as technical as climbing is - is probably beneficial and at least worth experimenting with.
Always did static streatching in martial arts.
Why would you start a warm-up with static stretching? Static stretching is passive, literally not getting you warm. It makes no sense.
Climbing does require flexibility, but the active type of flexibility. For example, being able to lift your leg and foot up high. Static stretching lengthens the muscles for 15 minutes after which normal muscle length is restored. It is a different variable entirely.
No I would do at least a few minutes of cardio/pulse raising before stretching. Check out the RAMP protocol. Nice simple structure to follow.
Also climbing requires active and passive flexibility. Your ability to lift your leg high (for example) is not just about having strong hip flexors, but also having flexibility in the hip extensors. Especially when we are talking about maximising ROM. Your ROM will last longer if you are climbing/moving on the wall.
Also…passive stretching when used properly can help with the neuromuscular response. Let’s say you max out at 45 degree center splits, by training passively you teach your neuromuscular response to not freak out and “tighten up” at 45 degrees.
Very validating
I appreciate you trying to kill off that old dogma. Not going to buy the pants lol Jesus do you know how much they are it’s ridiculous.
very standard price for technical pants
Thanks. They are not cheap, but I think it's the going rate for that kind of quality. They feel like they will last.
We are watching a video from a company, dynamically sponsored by a partner company and statically warmed up with ads from other companies
A study with 13 people? Seriously? 13?
It's not great but that is the reality of a lot of research within sports science, especially intervention base studies. They are usually performed on Uni students because they are willing to participate. But we don't just come to conclusions based on one study. We look at multiple studies as well as the weaknesses in studies that hold confounding views. This is also combined with our experience and anecdotal evidence as coaches. So yeah, 13 is not great but I don't think its worth throwing in the trash and saying "more research is needed". As coaches we need to make educated decisions now, we can't wait for the research to mature for another 5-10 years. If you know of better more robust research feel free to share with us :)
I must seek deep within my dark cavern
I don't know why Magnus has decided to carpet bomb UA-cam with Rungne ads, but all it's making me do is actively want to avoid it and any video with it.
They are going heavy on marketing. But I think that is standard practice for launching a new company. And I get why they are doing it on UA-cam, Magnus knows the domain! I appreciate it gets tiring. Pls skip if you are bored of it.
@@LatticeTraining I realize that marketing a new product / brand is one thing, but I think we both know this is a little beyond that. Every UA-camr with over 100 subscribers is currently hocking Rungne or MagDust right now. I'm at the point where I'm not just skipping the ads but skipping the videos.
I realize you're not Magnus and I doubt he, or anyone relevant will ever see this comment. But I suggest looking at companies like Tension, who have built a successful company in not that long a span by simply making good products.
@@Aaron-xq6hv bruh the chalk is like #1 grip like many people have reviewed ever chalk type and found Magdust at top 3 in every category
Youre gonna get ads no matter what, so wouldnt you rather it be for a quality, relevant product like as opposed to say a squarespace ad or like raid shadow legends?
Magnus is successful enough to support creators like him while being able to grow his brand which makes quality stuff, which is a great thing for the climbing content community
Tensions a great company but probably arent at a point or have the desire to sponsor creators, but fricticious has!
magbomb. when will brands learn it's really fatiguing. I hate whoop and will never buy one just because of their terrible ads.
Why not just climb in shorts
Maybe homie gets cold easy
Why not climb in pants? You can do either👍
@@christinepoppy3277 if you’re so worried about limited flexibility wear shorts
Ever done a knee bar in shorts?
@@dannythwaites1318 yes