Fortress opening scene
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- Opening scene from "Fortress"
The Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress is a four-engine heavy bomber developed in the 1930s for the United States Army Air Corps
In 1934 the U.S. Air Corps was looking for a bomber capable of reinforcing the air forces in Hawaii, Panama, and Alaska. The capabilities of large four-engine aircraft exceeded those of shorter-ranged, twin-engine aircraft.
Requirements were for it to carry a "useful bombload" at an altitude of 10,000 ft for 10 hours with a top speed of at least 200 mph
The prototype flew from Seattle to Wright Field in nine hours and three minutes with an average cruising speed of 252 miles per hour.
The engineers who designed the plane as the workers that made it as the mechanics and technicians that kept those aircrafts in perfect conditions as well were the unsung heroes .We must not forget the doctors, nurses that saved many lives.It was a huge team.
My uncle was co-pilot on a B-17 and was shot down twice. Once over the 'Channel' and had to bail out and once more, his plane made it back to England before they had to bail out. He survived the war. I was too young to ask him about his experiences. I have gained a real respect and admiration for those crew who flew through flack and fighters to drop their bombs. I wish I had been able to tell him that before he passed.
Core Therapies, he heard you now
B 17 was an hell of an Bomber , well armed and could take a lot of Damage , The Sherman’s were pure Death traps against Panzers !
The Germans used to call the Shermans, "Ronsons" because when they were hit, they lit up like the Ronson lighter....@@darylhoskins5696
@@stevebennett5281 lit first time, every time....
@@deansmith4549 B-17 for sure . The sherman had a very high survival rate.
my dad was 17in 1943, used to ride his bike to the air field in what is now down town orlando.watched the B-17's come and go.went to enlist but my grandmother refused to sign the papers.he listed in the coast guard, trained in Maryland. was an gunner on the ADMIRAL MAYO SAW ACTION IN THE ATLANTIC.brought back the 101st AB.WENT THROUGH THE Panama Canal crossed the pacific to Tokyo bay.made 2 trips from Tokyo to the states.was discharged in early 1946.came home to winter park Florida,got a job as a letter carrier stayed there for 42 years, raised 4 kids.never talked much abut the war.didn't agree that he was part of the "greatest generation".said he just felt it was something he had to do.he told me once that if he had gone into the army air corps he would have probably been killed.he passed away in 2009i often wish I had asked more questions about his service.i requested his service record and through it I was able to learn a great deal about what he did.i miss him to this day.
My dad... flight engineer and top turret gunner on a B-17. He was just 24 years old at the time. Flew 17 missions over Germany. Never talked about it much. Said it was just a job they had to do. As flight engineer his job was to keep the bird flying, no matter what.
I remember as a kid about 10 years old turning on the car radio and my dad calmly reached over and turned it off. Said he had to listen to the engine while he was driving. He had to keep that bird flying no matter what.
yes the good old warstorys by youtube. he was still full of ptsd because evertyime he heard an engine he saw himself back in the times he flew missions over europe. It seems that everyone here hase somebody who did this and that in the war.
It was certainly no better for the lads in Vietnam. I remember the bloke who lived a couple of houses down from us when I was a nipper. Australians were conscripted for service in Vietnam until 1972. He certainly never mentioned the SAS, but I believe that he was a member of them, or another elite unit. All that I heard, basically, is that his unit was assigned to assassination. Of rural people, deemed by Army intelligence to be NLF or NVA operatives. He had a strange habit of periodically leaving his home to sleep in one of his cars. Nothing to do with alcohol or trouble with the misssus. He used to do that quietly and calmly.
*Nice BULLSH!T story!* *Complete w/NO NAMES so nothing can be affirmed or denied*
@@themonsterwithin6495 *WTF does 'Legal Name' mean?*
*B.4/21/54 Garden City Osteopathic Hospital in Michigan*
*Look it up free in vital statistics*
___________
*A given name from a parent is just a name and 'Legalities' have nothing to do with it*
@@themonsterwithin6495 *No, the bombings were real...and so were the civilian deaths and maiming*
__________
*Facts are neither 'Opinions' nor 'Subject to interpretations' which is why they are called 'Facts' and the fact of deliberate destruction of Cities in order to 'crush morale and incite
rebellion' never happened nor would it happen from being murdered and terrorized*
When I was a teenager I remember a little old man who would come in the store where my buddy worked. He had been on a bomber crew and was shot down. Spent the rest of the war in a German POW camp. RIP Bill, some of us remember what the cost of freedom is.
I worked for a guy who's father was shot down near Stuttgart, Germany in December of 1944. Only man to get out of his B17E. Taken prisoner 2 days later. He was freed by the Soviets May of 1945. Suffered typhus, malnutrition, under 45 kg (5 feet 10 inches in height) when the Soviets took the POW camp. Great guy, had lots of stories to tell. They don't make guys like that anymore.
My father was a waist gunner on a B24 492nd BG a Carpetbagger based in Harrington UK. They got through their missions and came home. My dad did have his leg injured on one mission by a ruptured line due to flak. Due to high altitude the bleeding was slowed and they dropped altitude and patched dad up. Due to his cord to his heated pants was cut he said he damn near froze before they got down from high altitude. He and his crew kept quiet about his injury so he would not be taken off the line and a new crewman put in his place. Remember these crews trained together for quite a long time and trusted each other. When he passed in 2004 the large scar was still readily visible on his lower leg.
Harrington was my closest USAAF base and I used to volunteer at the museum there every weekend while I was growing up. Sadly work took me away from the area but the museum and airfield are still there and the collection of Carpetbagger uniforms there is incredible!
My uncles flew Lancaster and Halifax with bomber command.they would talk about the aircraft but not the raids-modest and self effacing but all brave.felt humbled by the courage they all showed
My dad was a bombadier and navigator (because he was good at math) in Lancasters and Halifaxes with the RCAF. He never talked much about it, but said that if you weren't scared you were crazy, and there were some of them. He also said that he'd wake up after getting back to base and there were always a few empty beds where the guys didn't make it back.
The one time I think it shook him is when we went camping when I was a kid; we met a nice family beside us; the husband was from Germany. My dad asked what town he was from. On the way back to our trailer he told me they bombed that town on Christmas Eve.
Miss you Dad. It's been 31 years.
@@ellerystudio4906 Mine, too - 30 years since he died. Halifax rear gunner throughout 40 operations. Then went on to become a Lincoln rear gunner, 30 operations in Malaya in 1953.
There is a reason they are called the greatest generation. We owe them so much. My father was a bomb aimer on a Lanc. Shot down over France and evaded capture with the help of the resistance.
Dad was the flight engineer aboard Ack Ack Annie with the 91 BG. He would routinely walk the catwalk and kick out live bombs that had frozen!
He had to manually crank down the landing gear on one mission after the hydraulics failed after taking a flak hit. Incredible stuff for a 20 year old kid.
We owe them so much!
The 91st Bomb Group was the model for the 918th Bomb Group in the book, movie (with Gregory Peck) and TV series "12 O'clock High".
My dad was a B-17 pilot in WW II. On his third mission he was shot down over Germany and spent 2 years as a POW. Of the crew of ten five survived and five were killed.
I managed to research all of the data available about my dad's mission and his time in Stalag Luft III and Stalag VIIA until April 1945 when Patton's advanced forces liberated his camp. I discovered all of his crew and the ones who died where they were buried. I found all of the surviving crew that included the pilot (my dad), the co-pilot, the bombardier, the top turret gunner and the tail gunner. The two waist gunners, radio operator, ball turret gunner, and navigator all died.
I also researched the German WW II files to find out who shot down my dad. It was Senior Lt Becker flying an FW -190 on July 23, 1943. On July 30, 1943, Lt Becker was shot down by an American P-47 and was killed. He is buried in a cemetery in Denmark.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be a pilot in the military but my eye sight was too poor and I wasn't that good at math.
So during the Vietnam War, I joined the Marine Corps in 1967 to avoid being drafted into the Army. I ended up as a 2nd LT in Vietnam as a Marine platoon commander. I lost a lot of good Marines. It was a hard year. I served 21 years in the Marines with another 2 years in combat.
I loved the Marines, but perhaps the greatest accomplishment was when I earned my private pilots license and my instrument and commercial ratings. In addition, I completed basic, intermediate, and advanced aerobatic training. I also earned my glider license.
Although I couldn't be a military pilot, hope my dad and mom (who were both dead) were proud of me.
Many years later, I also took several rides in a B-17 from Collins Foundation just to experience the same look and feeling of flying a B-17 that my dad had. They were some of the greatest experiences of my life.
I'm 75 now and retired. I still remember my parents. They were the best parents a kid could possibly have. I still miss them.
Stlag Luft III was the 'Great Escape' camp.
My high school algebra (and woodshop/technical drawing) teacher was a B-17 navigator. Shot down over Regensberg, he spent the rest of the war at Stalag Luft III, and at the end, Moosburg (Stalag VII A). Best teacher of all I had in high school or college.
What a great story Sir. Bravery on both sides. My late father served in the Australian Army, ended up on Morotai and was present at the Japanese surrender in that region. I never served but I’m proud of and grateful to, all who did. Including yourself.
I’m a 67yo from Tasmania. Cheers
I wanted to be a pilot in the USAF, I joined the CAP in 6th grade, my eyes went bad in high school. I became a Paratrooper, jumping out of aircraft instead of flying them. I served 28 years, including 5 in the Middle East post 9-11. I earned my CIB (Combat Infantryman's Badge).
I have the greatest Respect for those who fought in Vietnam, Korea, and WWII.
My first deployment to Iraq, our US Army Infantry Battalion was attached to the US 1st Marine Division. The Marines had better Doctrine, and Common Sense! Fortunately, I and some other NCOs had trained with the Marines in the 80's and 90's, so we adapted well.
I have no doubt whatsoever that your parents were and are proud of you. I put 30 years in the Air Force. Aside from being in the wrong place at the wrong time on 911, I can't say anything I experienced matches that of you or your Dad. Semper Fi.
My father was a Navigator on B-17's in the 100th Bomb Group, 8th Air Force in WWII.
Brave men, all.
There's an excellent museum for the 8th Air Force right off of I-95, north of Savanah GA.
My cousin flew in the 100th as well. January 1945 until the end of the war. He stayed in the Air Force for 32 years.
My uncle was shot down and survived ... what a plane !!!
You literally flew a flying coffin.
Uncle Ted was a great pilot.
Living history...
Semper Fi
Dad was a B24 copilot based in Horsham-St.Faith in East Anglia, 92nd BW, 458BG. Almost didn't come back once after losing an engine over Germany and falling behind everyone, as is shown here. Were it not for the lead Liberator slowing just enough for them to keep up, I wouldn't be writing this comment. I was lucky enough to ask him lots of questions about his experiences before he passed years ago. Miss him every day
My father in law was bomb tech with the 458th at Horsham-St. Faith. Met my mother in law in Norwich and brought her to America after the war to get married. They have both past now but your note brings back memories. We were at the Garber restoration facility of the Air and Space Museum and say a model of a B24 called Spotted Ape that was the 458th assembly lead.
My dad was a bombardier with the 458th stationed at Horsham St. Faith field.
How did they not hit each other with their own machine gun fire, when firing at attacking fighters? If they were in close formation, you'd think that this would be a common occurrence. Any ideas on this subject?
@@warrenmilford1329 Friendly fire happened all the time in bomber formations. They trained gunners to focus on fixed fields of fire while the planes were supposed to hold fixed places in the formation. In this way they hoped to minimize friendly fire. But with flak exploding, attacking fighters, wounded pilots, damaged, burning and destroyed bombers falling all around - and simple human error - friendly fire damaged a lot of planes and killed a lot of bomber crewmen. We'll never know how many (no way to tell really, and at that time, no one really had the time (nor, probably, the inclination) to want to really delve into that kind of study).
@@moistmike4150 Thanks a lot for that info mate, and taking the time to reply. Yea, it's something I've often thought about, especially when viewing footage of them, flying in formation and getting attacked. It must have been intense at the best of times, but then throw in all the variables you mentioned; absolute chaotic mayhem. Some fellas, in the human error aspect, may have got into a heat of the moment, uncontrolled shooting frenzy, having lost their firing discipline. Imagine being say a waist gunner, in a crew that had survived to their last assigned mission. On that mission, that you survive, the fella next to you was killed, from what you know, more than likely, must have been friendly fire. Because it seemed apparent during the battle, that no enemy fighters, actually attacked from his side. Absolutely devastating.
I knew men that flew these planes one missions like this. They were the men of my dad's generation. My God, how brave they were.
They had alot on there side
Amen !!
When freedom is at stake and people aren't fooled by mainstream media, bravery becomes a necessity if a country is to survive. After working hard for everything you got! Everyone is so passive today, they might as well just give their freedoms away. Wake up America
A great generation of men!
The "Greatest" Generation... My Grandfather and his two best friends all served 30 years in the Navy or more and fought in 3 wars. My own father was stationed overseas till I was 10 years old, so my grandfather spent alot of time with me. Those three old men were the most competent, capable, hard working, dedicated, honest, pragmatic, hardest, toughest, meanest men Ive ever known. Their names were Francis, Leslie, and Loran.
I was fortunate to get a ride on 909 in Omaha , 3 months before she cracked up in Connecticut. God speed to the crew and passengers that were lost in that crash.
My father was an instructor on 17's based out of Washington during the war. I took the ride as sort of a tribute to him. God rest him and the others that served.
Good to get that ride in. Sad to lose the crew and staff. The Liberty Belle was in Omaha shortly before burning in Illinois. Bless the folks who campaign the warbirds still.
I got a ride in 909 in Venice Florida in 2017.
I was on her when she was in Hayward CA.
I remember going up inside Nine-O-Nine at John Wayne in Orange County, beautiful aircraft! Wish I had a chance to take a ride before that accident, there's not too many of those things that are still airworthy.
Had a supervisor about 30 years ago who was a B-17 pilot. The only thing he ever talked about when it came to flying combat, was completing his 25(?) missions over Germany and not a single casualty on his plane. He came back stateside and taught young pilots at ground school. After that 25th mission, he never piloted or got into a plane again.
Originally it was 25 missions and then when General Doolittle took over the 8th Air Force, he made it 35 missions.
@@the_answeris6694 The P-51 had turned most missions into milk-runs. FLAK replaced the Me-109 as the scourge of the AAF.
The Mighty Eight Air Force!! None of us can measure up to those guys. The utmost respect and gratitude for a debt we can never repay.
My father died in my arms at 91. I grew up with WW2 combat vets. All suspiciously quiet...I do not think that our great republic will likely ever equal the character, sacrifice, sincerity and commitment of that perhaps greatest of generations. How fragile and expensive is freedom.
That generation paid a great price for our freedoms and we are not thanking them and preserving what we got in return. Thank you for the comment
@@chrishanalei9042 Dear Chris - so much of what that, "GREATEST GENERATION" fought for is now being dismantled. A dissociative young generation is being led to the cliffs edge of "socialism", "guaranteed income", "social justice", "gender neutrality" and even the end of American sovereignty with, effectively open borders. Being dismantled from within with destructive, cultural software, the monsterous effects of inflation, fake, "P.C." education, racism and class warfare will invariably bring the Republic to weakness, mediocrity and even ruin. Here in great, industrial Houston, home of NASA, Texas Medical Center, Energy, Port of Houston, narcotics and criminality abound along with a growing mindset of entitlement and hatred for all things American. "Watch what happens to your country..." My dear father's final words to me upon his death bed...he had survived the horrible Bolshevik revolution in Russia and was a decorated WW2 combat vet who later helped found NASA and oppose communism. May God bless you and your family, Sir.
I asked my grandpa all the time about his service in wwII. I was to young to hear his whole story. Pieces I've put together with family paint a picture much like this. He told me about having to land on his ball turret gunner, he was dead and the gear was shot out, when he left his seat, he seen that he could pick a hole to climb out? He went back to drinking his beer and that was that! He spent a lifetime trying to forget the war and taught me gardening!
Some things are too awful to forget. I hope your grandpa found his peace. Thanks to all of them for ours.
My uncle And was a tail Gunner on a fortress, he had horrible PTSD after the war, load noises could set him off terrifying the whole house hold!
Tail-gunner was considered the highest cassulty making job in WW2!
Lots of 'My Dad was - ' on here and rightly so. Brave men, all of them and deserve to be remembered. My Dad was a civilian aircraft mechanic for the first 3 years of WW2. Worked on the modifications to the Fortresses and Liberators supplied to the RAF, and Lancasters. All those in 'preserved occupations' had to sign a form once a fortnight to confirm the job. The apprentice who was detailed to take my dad's and the other workers' forms to the correct office went via the pub, didn't make it, and they were all called up. My dad was enlisted in the Royal Artillery (yep, aircraft experience counted for nothing) and served in the Far East on 25 pounders as a Bombardier (Corporal}.
My dad did that too but he piloted the B-26 Marauder, also known as the "Widow Maker."
Grandfather in-law was the pilot of "Easy Goin" and flew with the Bloody 100th. Loved talking with him, miss him.
My Dad was a British Commando, not an airman but he did tell men once about tail gunners in bombers.. I was only young but got the impression he wouldn't have swapped places for anything and that those men were under complete stress and very respected if even nobody talked about it at the time..
The ball turret was notoriously high risk too. My dad was a waist gunner but they were all cross-trained. He spent some time at the tail gun. He said it was pretty awkward and uncomfortable. They had to kneel on a little padded platform.
My dad did 35 missions out of Glatton for the mighty 8th, first as Co pilot, rest as pilot. Blessed, he NEVER lost a ship or crew member. One injured tailgunner who survived. Talked about missions only twice.... The 1st and ONLY night mission they tried, and the 1st time they encountered the German Jets.
My Dad flew Lancaster bombers but like many wouldn’t talk about the raids too much but had some unbelievable photos. They were a different breed.
I took a ride in a B-17 last summer at an airshow. Major bucket list item checked. Dream come true. One month later that very same plane crashed at another show in Connecticut, killing seven on board.
Had a ride on the same B-17 in Virginia about 5 years ago. .the courage these people had was off the charts. Broke my heart when that plane crashed in connn.
Oh no, that's terrible!
That's so sad, sorry to hear it
I had a friend whose Grandfather was a rear gunner on a lancaster. I always remember when I was around his house and his Grandad had dosed off in a chair, he then awoke and was crying out and clutching at non existent guns. He eventually calmed down and fell back asleep, he wasn't even aware that he did it-apparently, it was a thing he did often and the family got used to it. I was only a lad and it shook me up but, I felt something that no young boy should feel-scared that this old man before was still reliving his awful past.
Yep, and he did that for our freedom that is taken for granted by many today.
@@chrishanalei9042 So true, maybe that is what freedom is, to forget the past...who knows. Shame that many do not understand the sacrifices past generations made.
i used to work in a long stay hospital back in the late 70s early 80s. we had a guy that had been in ww1. he was well over 90 when he died. he would sit for an hour just working a non existent smle bolt over and over and muttering. we would have to give him a sedative if he didn't snap out of it. we also had guys from ww2 and korea. sadly for some people the war never ends.
My Grandfather was in the first world war from day 1. He used to crawl through the barbed wire and call in the artillery on the German trenches. He would wake up screaming in the night until he died in his late 80's.
@@eddiesolo1971 During WW2 even the folks back home had sacrifices to make--there was rationing of gasoline as well as essential food stuffs like sugar, butter, milk, etc. And today people are whining about wearing a simple mask, nothing more, to help prevent a deadly virus from spreading as being some kind of infringement of their constitutional rights. Bunch of babies!
never got to meet Uncle Lex, top turret Gunner and flight engineer. he died on a bombing run on Naples in 43 in a B-17F. Some gave All
I had a conversation with a B24 crewmen some years back. He had survived his first 25 missions and volunteered for a 2nd tour. His plane was shot down on the 1st mission of his second tour. The plane descendants so rapidly it burst both eardrums. He did make it out but spent the rest of the war as a pow. I was lucky enough to talk to several World War II combat vets. Definitely the greatest generation.
Respect, from England 🇬🇧 Battle of Britain County the South East mate my grandad flew a tank in the 6th armoured division 21st army group,all the best to you
Our guys in RAF Bomber Command would always say they would rather fly by night, the USAAF guys would say they would rather go by daylight. I don't think it made much difference they were all insanely brave and their losses high. We cannot respect them enough.
Wrong! At daylight the enemy fighters come up to catch u + flak....at night u wont have the problem of enemy fighters. fighters dont fly at night or rarely
@@Mave242 Unfortunately, RAF and USAAF casualties were about the same.
@@Mave242 Bullshit Kid, the us lightweight bombers did no damage, it took the heavy British bombers to do the damage.
@@Mave242 Uh, no. Just no. Germans (as well as the Allies) had plenty of night fighters. There were night-fighter aces as well, some had over 100 kills. The Germans had Ju88s, Bf110s, equipped with radar. Flying at night wasn't any safer. Adjusted for numbers, the bomber command had the highest attrition rate of them all (of the British forces that is), that should tell you how dangerous it was flying at night.
@@georgebarnes8163 George, So you are telling me the British bombers did the most damage to Germany in WWII? Just so you know, 21 years, USAF! History buff and Pilot! I think a B-29 and a B-17 were pretty heavy hitters! The RAF was bombing Germany from 1940 to 1943, three years more than the US who dropped 23,000 tons of explosive to RAFs 45,000. So Kid! Don’t jump on someone because he sees a war video and hears stories from USAAF personnel. I was stationed at RAF Upper Heyford 1990 to 1994! I helped ship all the American stuff out.
We cannot thank these men enough for what they went through.
I feel that the B-17 crews in the 8th Air Force were inhumanly as brave as the men in the 1st waves on D-Day at Omaha. Except for a rarified few, none of us can imagine or compare.
Currently seems like we don't care. Unbelievable that tyranny is here
@@chrishanalei9042 Yes it has come back into fashion again. People want a strongman. Why is it that we think we can keep doing the same things over and over again, and get a different outcome?
I think we can thank them by protecting what they gave us, what they fought for.
My grandma and my aunt were sitting in a civilian bunker and those brave man tried to bomb them. Missed the bunker but hit their home. Can’t thank those heroes enough for destroying critical civilian infrastructure and bombing woman and child’s.
When I was a kid in the late 60's early 70's we used to go on holiday to Anderby Creek in Lincolnshire where you could still dig up .50 cal machine gun bullets that had been jettisoned by B17 gunners whilst trying to shed weight and gain height coming home on damaged engines! I used to chill me to the bone to realise that these casings had been fired at German fighters over enemy territory!
My dad was a waist gunner on a 17 in the 15th AF. They had to fly 50 missions. He did and made it home. He said many times one thing he was grateful for was not being assigned to a B24. The B17 was one of best designed war planes ever built.
My old man was a B 24 pilot but fortunate for him his mission was part of the invasion of Japan, which never happened. AFAIK, he never took 1 VA benefit. He said there were many others who deserved it more, including his HS buddies that didn't fair so well or worse. You don't find many nowa days who think they shouldn't take more than they deserve.
what squadron? my father was RWG in a B17 in the 15th, spring 1944. he wasn't fond of flying coffins either.
@@carlmerkle8483 483rd BG, 815th SQ
My dad was in the 483rd, 817th Squadron.
He was a navigator. Flew 32 missions.
my uncle in Eigth Airforce as armorer on RAF base in England for B-17 and P-38. dangerous work...indeed
Bet he has some stories! Thanks for comenting
I got to climb around inside the legendary "Nine O Nine" about 20 years ago. It was a Sunday morning when I heard it landing at a local airport 2 miles away so I drove over there and paid like $50 or something like that - well worth the money. B17's are a lot smaller inside than what you see in this movie set. Gave me a whole new appreciation for what these guys went through. Especially walking across that skinny little cat walk over the bomb bay.
Sadly, Nine-O-Nine crashed with loss of life in 2019, or 2020, not sure which.
@@AW1Lucky So sorry to hear this. I looked it up and it was in 2019. The investigation revealed the crash was apparently due to magneto issue and cylinder issues.
Their sense of duty towards doing the right thing was nothing short of astonishing. What a generation of human beings.
My dad was a B-24 tail gunner with the Mighty Eighth out of England. Flew 35 missions. They got to 25 and their Colonel came and told them they would have to do 10 more. They were out of replacement crews. And yes, like many from that time and place, I suspect he would have been diagnosed with PTSD if that had been understood in those days. As it was the flight surgeon that last checked him over told him he had high blood pressure but so did about all the other guys. He had been awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Never talked about it. I discovered it when I was almost fifty when I went through some old stuff in my folks attic. Freedom is very expensive.
I watched a video here explaining the physics of hitting a moving target from a moving gun and it's amazing anyone hit anything.
Tracers help a lot.
Had an uncle who navigated on Lancasters in WW2. Between missions he gave crews 6dance lessons on the apron. After the war he became a workd famous dance teacher along with his wife Ellen. RIP Harry and Ellen.
Gramps was a B17 Engineer/Gunner in the 301st BG, its amazing he made it home.
For those who don't know, the flight engineer also manned the top turret. The radio operator also had a single gun with limited field of fire.
They were both enlisted positions as well. How the officers and enlisted on each bomber interacted could vary--one constant was that the lead pilot was always the boss. Same today, of course. The "aircraft commander" is basically God.
I spoke to Robert Morgan (Captain of the Memphis Bell) many years ago. During the darkest days he'd have breakfast before a mission with 9 other captains, then that evening having dinner with the 2 other surviving captains. He said this happened more times than he could count.
War is a Chilling reality. Brutal and plays no favorites. ^v^
Luck is usually more important than skill in combat.
@@donniekeith216 It wasn't luck. vonRichtofen, Goering, Erich Hartmann, Ernst Rudel, and their counterpart aces on the Allied side (in both world wars) all noted the same phenomenon -- that they lived, through 18 or 20 or even 30 months of hard aerial combat, while the guys with only 1-5 missions under their belts died like flies. They didn't get too close to anyone in their squadrons or want to know too much about them, b/c the odds were the replacements would be dead within a week or two. The experts had a procedure, the skills, the abilility to perceive, the "sixth sense" needed to keep themselves safe in the air, while the others hadn't yet acquired it. It wasn't necessarily something that could be taught, although they tried. Only when they violated their own principles (as: vonRichtofen) were they killed.
The Mighty Eight Air Force!! None of us can measure up to those guys. The utmost respect and gratitude for a debt we can never repay.
Captain Morgan
Each plane could have carried another 500 pounds of ordinance if the crews balls weren't so big.
Maybe they should have dropped those too for a win
in the mid 80s, I had the honour of drinking with a tank troop commander, a sniper with the Northamptonshire Inf and a rear gunner (wee Eric) all WWII vets. I was then in Army and we all had a laugh. But every now and then one of us would be quiet. No one said a word, we all understound why.
My Dad's best friend was shot down over germany and spent several years in a POW camp. He never spoke about his experience. Those bomber crews really took it on the chin. Very brave young men.
More airmen lost in the air over Europe than Marines lost in the entire pacific Campaign
So did the German civilians.
Upton. Who cares?
Did he come back alived?
Maybe Germany should not have declared war on the United States.
Slight problem , the Germans usually stopped shooting flak when their own planes were around the bomber formation.
Your right dude, those pilots might be insane if they just come in while they're fellow Germans bellow are still shooting flak
My dad's plane took a round right through the empty bomb bay over Guernsey Island. His plane went straight down, He could see the gunners running from their guns. The main controls didn't work, but he switched on the autopilot which did. The plane leveled out and they were able to make it back to England. They'd lost their hydraulics so they had to crash land with no landing gear on a fighter runway. They almost ran into the forest at the end of the runway. I don't think he ever completely got over his experiences flying missions over Germany.
I doubt that any bomber crews ever got over their experiences during bombing missions. The day to day stress of knowing your odds of living, along with all that went along with each mission itself, took a very special brain and will. Your dad sounds like he was a great man. My dad was in China and Burma.
My dad flew a Lancaster 22 times on missions, most of them into Germany. Several times he got back with holes in the plane from flak. On one flight his tail gunner was injured and didnt say anything until the plane had landed. On his last flight his plane was badly hit and he had to crash land at RAF Tangmere in Sussex which was a fighter base.. He was lucky because this was towards the end of the war and at that time there were more crews than planes available so he was able to transfer to Coastal Command and finished the war flying a Sunderland. After this he was always uncomfortable flying in a plane. I live in Europe but he always joked that despite this he has visited Germany more times than I have.
B 17s had one of the highest mortality rates at the beginning of the war. Once they lost fighter escorts they became extremely vulnerable. The only thing that kept their losses from being worse was the introduction of the P 51 as a fighter escort.
I have to agree with Bob and that's the first thought that went through my mind as well, "they never fully recover", I was born in southern England in 65 and the scars and memories of WWII were still healing and fresh respectively and I am very grateful to the men like your dad, Bob-s dad and Uncle Kevin's dad.. My grandfathers medals are framed and proudly hang on my wall that he was awarded for making it out of France in 1940 and for going back to chase Rommel across north Africa and the follow up Italian campaign from bottom to top . He never spoke about it but his faith and reverence for human life makes me think he saw some shitty things and the artillery cost him his hearing permanently.
@@daunedavis609 The Americans were tasked with the daylight raids where as the British performed bombing raids at night which for obvious reasons heavily affected the mortality rate.. The P-51 did change things up but the Luftwaffe learnt quickly that if you engaged the fighter escort early in the mission progress and/or forced the fighters to drop their fuel tanks it severely hampered the range and ability for the fighters to go all way to Berlin and back. As the allied invasion crept west this became less and less of a factor as the fighters would meet the bombers from bases in France. The P-51 sucked until it got the same supercharged engine as the Spitfire (Merlin 66) and then it excelled as you say.
And to think they signed up with pride and enthusiasm to fly into almost certain death at 25 thousand feet above the ground just to serve and protect their country.Thank you all for your service and may God bless you as you RIP!
Most were drafted, they did it because they had no choice.
@@MrRealestic Actually a huge number were volunteers, like my dad. Every young American man of those days dreamed of flying, so the USAAF had no shortage of pilot candidates.
The enlisted crew would have had a high proportion of draftees who scored higher on the aptitude tests.
WW2 generation doesn't bear close resemblance to war weary and cynical post-Vietnam generations. Most believed in the cause and were eager to get on with it.
@Woody Meggs you aren't wrong about the initial rush, that was not sustained though. Most that joined afterwards were because draft cards were in the mail and they knew if you joined prior to bringing out your card you were higher on the pay scale. The majority of draftees were unaware they could simply claim they wanted to join and then claim they had no prior knowledge of that draft notice. There are too many accounts of this to ignore.
Nobody of any sanity wants to go meet death on the field of glory.
Never forget, and learn from this video. The greatest generation gave all, as have all the military gens since. Thank you for your sacrifices.
88,000 USAF personnel died during WW2. Young men. Good men.
The Mighty Eight Air Force!! None of us can measure up to those guys. The utmost respect and gratitude for a debt we can never repay.
I live in a village in Cambridgeshire, England,that was the centre for three B17 bases and one fighter support base, the memorials are kept pristine and the stars and stripes fly with pride, No, they are not forgotten, their memories live with us every day, bless that generation who gave for our freedom.
My father was stationed at a fighter base near Saffron Walden for a short period of time. There is now a research park on one of the bases there, but I'm not sure that is where he was stationed. I was on a business trip to the site there and thought it looked vaguely familiar, when I got home I looked at his old photo album and one of the buildings seems to match. Twenty years ago, we were planning on taking a trip together to the UK, Belgium and Germany to visit where he had been in the 8th airforce, unfortunately he died unexpectedly before we got the chance.
My father was stationed at a fighter base near Saffron Walden for a short period of time. There is now a research park on one of the bases there, but I'm not sure that is where he was stationed. I was on a business trip to the site there and thought it looked vaguely familiar, when I got home I looked at his old photo album and one of the buildings seems to match. Twenty years ago, we were planning on taking a trip together to the UK, Belgium and Germany to visit where he had been in the 8th airforce, unfortunately he died unexpectedly before we got the chance.
"Roger That" uttered every few seconds, lol... that's a totally modern term. In WW2, it was simply "Roger" or "Copy", both meaning "Yes, I understand." "Roger that" came from the movie "Top Gun" in 1986, and the real military began using it after that cuz it sounded cool. Even when I was in the service, when someone said "Roger that", the radioman (RTO) would always turn to the CO and say "I guess I got Goose and Mav on the horn."
WHEN I RAN ACROSS THIS MOVIE CLIP I GOT A TEAR BECAUSE MY FATHER STARTED OUT IN THE ARMY AIR CORP. HE WAS A MECHANIC AND WHEN THEY WERE RUNNING OUT OF FLIGHT CREWS HE VOLUNTEERED AND PROMOTED TO MASTER SARGEANT WHEN HE FLEW THE PLANE ACROSS THE ENGLISH CHANNEL WITH ONLY TWO ENGINES AND NO PILOT, COPILOT. MAY HE RIP. HE WAS A TRUE HERO TO US ALL.
Long ago I chanced to meet a senior Boeing engineer north of Seattle (where I then lived), who'd flown with the Eighth Air Force as a 'technical evaluation' observer. He talked so calmly about it, and the technical 'fixes' which he'd helped introduce. (He also admired the vintage B-3 shearling flight jacket which I'd worn...The AAF had made him turn his in after his tour ended.)
Total respect for these young men! Don't believe me. Go visit the Pima Air and Space Museum in Pima Arizona. They have a big building just dedicated to all the US bomber crews of WWII. Not just B-17s but all crews that served in the US Army Air Corps. These guys had it hard as far as dying in combat. I was an Airborne Infantryman once upon a time. Brought tears to my eyes after going through that museum and respect. Just imagine a generation of young men whos fathers fought the First World War and 20 years later lose their lives or get wounded doing bombing raids over Europe or the Pacific. Their casualties were equal to the Marines fighting in the Pacific with not the Army combined in that theatre. That is horrific!
The Curator of the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio at one time was Royal Frye. A bomber pilot and close friend of my Uncle George Bleimes, also a bomber pilot, both Vets of the European Air War in WW2. Royal was shot down over Germany and served in a POW camp. One day as Royal gave me a tour at the museum, I took a close look at the POW Exhibit and found that much of the ID information was his.
He was a good man who served his country well and helped to preserve the heritage of the men who flew in Europe. RIP Royal.
My great grandfather on the Watkins side was a pilot of the Lancaster and was shot down. He was sent to a POW camp ..
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Insanly brave men who fought and died for a freedom so many of the younger generations have not been taught to respect.
My father flew B17s out of Lavenham Sulfolk England with the 8th army Air Force. I got my love of flying from him. He married my mother on Halloween, 1943 and after a two day honeymoon, flew out to England and combat at the age of 20 years old. Our young people now days have no idea what sacrifice for you country is all about. He was training to fly B29s and go to the pacific when the atomic bomb was dropped on Japan, which saved countless lives on both the American, and Japanese side.
My dad was six years old at that time, my mum three. They were at the receiving end of those bomb runs. It is really interesting to watch them watch scenes like these. "Bombs away!" - and there's a job well done. The bombs disappear below. Down there, the fight for survival is just starting...
I Had a great Uncle that flew 31 missions over Europe then, though he was in a B-24.
My dad spent 1943-1945 in the Central Pacific as a radio operator/gunner in B-24s: 27th Bombardment Squadron, 30th Bomb Group.
B-24s dropped more tonnage on the Germans than B-17s. They had a greater bomb load due to their lighter armament. Their treetop level attacks on the Rumanian oil fields must have been terrifying.
USAAF was the outstanding air force of all WW2 belligerents.
Not literally tree top but such low altitude the gunners dualed with the German flak trains. What an incredible experience.
My Uncle flew 35 missions as a nose gunner in the B-17 Flying Fortress and B-24 Liberator. The entire crew made it through the war. They flew their missions from April through October of 1944.
The next crew to fly their B-17 "Mean Wittle Kid" weren't so lucky. They were shot down 10 April 1945.
I have his "Lucky Bastard Club" certificate that was to certify the completion of the 35 missions. I received it after his death as he and my Aunt never had any kids. Out of curiosity I took the certificate out of it's frame to find on the reverse side that all the crew members had signed their names as witnesses. They are all gone now. I did get to have correspondence by e-mail with the Co-Pilot Authur Stofko and Bombardier Roy Wickerham before they passed away.
These men flew with the 487th Bomb Group (H) 839th Squadron Station 137 Lavenham, England in the United States ARMY Air Force.
My Uncle and Dad would always emphasize the ARMY part!
My dad was in the infantry and younger than my Uncle. He also lied about his age to get in. (He was 16 and turned 17 in June of '45). The war ended 2 days after my dad graduated from boot camp. His group picture was taken 13 August 1945. The Japaneese surrendered 15 August 1945.
The Mighty Eight Air Force!! None of us can measure up to those guys. The utmost respect and gratitude for a debt we can never repay.
I'm pretty sure the German fighter planes didn't fly into B-17 formations while the 17s were being hit with flak
A few did!
I recall it only happened on a few occasions. Super rare. Very valuable target defense.
Maybe not thru flack but some did learn that they wouldnt be fired upon if they flew thru the formation BIG balls...on both sides!
@@richardmj6015 I guess they got privileges for a reason, not to say it doesn't take balls to walk into a fire fight in the jungle or drive into one somewhere you never been.
@@johnnybraccia452 If a tree falls in the woods. I bet it happened more than some think, but IDK, I wasn't there even for the mission that got home, I'm there in spirit
The guy in the ball turret couldn’t be any bigger that 5ft 5 inches in height, that will tell you how tiny a area it was. It and the tail gun has less survivability than any other part of the bomber! To think was it somewhere near 30,000 of these boys never came home. May we never forget the sacrifices they made for our freedoms. For they truly were the greatest generation that ever lived.
This was great. Ya gotta love movies for the excitement and the unbelievable action. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. I couldn't even begin to imagine what it was like in those days.
All the movies made about that time can't tell the real story. The blood and guts they spilled, the hardship they had to go though. I don't think I could have made it. I thank you, the brave, the strong men and women of the service.
Except this was turgid and utterly unreal.
Your ability to question the world makes me think you could have done quite well.
Just read the book about Jimmy Stewart....Bomber Pilot. Hard to imagine an academy award-winner flying multiple combat missions. Could’ve sat out the war like many did.....John Wayne being one. He didn’t join like many, after Pearl Harbor. He enlisted before the war: he was a Corporal on guard duty when word came about Pearl. Went from buck private to Brigadier General when mustered out; then spent a total of more than 20 years (active plus reserves). Donated all his retirement pay to military-related causes. One of his sons died a Marine Officer in Vietnam. He flew at least one bombing mission in Vietnam on his annual training as a Reserve Officer; later, he earned his “Mach 2 pin” in a Hustler when he and his pilot broke Mach 2 (interesting note: the Hustler lost full power when one of the four engines didn’t function; the pilot went into a steep dive to maximize air speed enough to break Mach 2; gutsy? Foolish? You choose.) I like to remind folks of this when they attack Hollywood actors about not being patriotic. Even Gene Autry was an Air Corps Sergeant; Tyrone Power a Marine pilot; “Baboo the Elephant Boy” of the film series, also Air Corps enlisted; “Uncle Fester” from The Addams Family a glider pilot. Ronald Reagan an Army Officer who made training films for the Army; my personal favorite...how to avoid syphilis....such a hero!
My Dad has that book. I can borrow it, thanks for reminding me
It was a time when Hollywood's, past present and future Stars, actually went to war....Gunsmoke's James Arness, Bronze Star, wounded at Anzio....Lee Marvin, wounded at Saipan....Laugh-In's Dan Rowan, Distinguished Flying Cross, P-40 pilot.....Green Acre's Eddie Albert, Bronze Star, invasion of Tarawa.....director Robert Altman co-piloted more than 50 missions in a B-24....Even Audrey Hepburn participate in Dutch Resistance activities....And then there was that kid from Texas that was so young: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy
I knew his son - Ron McClean - three of us Lts in A co, in 3rd Recon, USMC, in Quang Tri. Ron seemed to know his time had come - one of those soul things. He talked to me and the other Lt (also a Ron) the day he went out on that recon patrol (In the DMZ) - was very fearful - we of course talked him out of the fear (well, tried to). The NVA engaged the team - he stepped in front of his team leader (who got the Navy Cross for his actions in that engagement) and took an NVA bullet. One always wonders...should we have counseled him just to skip that recon patrol (he could have done so)? All the strange things in a war...
Those of us who bash Hollywood actors for not being patriotic are OBVIOUSLY talking about TODAY's actors, not yesteryears. Like the actors who wouldn't show the American flag being planted on the moon, like the actors who speak badly of America when overseas, like the actors who kneel for the National Anthem. Hollywood of today is a cesspool.
It is amazing that those airplanes could remain aloft, considering the weight of those multiple pairs of thousand-pound, stainless-steel spheres.
Are you alluding to the courage of the men in those planes? Just making sure.
@@kevinohalloran7164 Yes, you are correct. I am indeed alluding to, and praising, the courage of the men in those planes.
@@BBQDad463 Well, you gave me a chuckle, and then my eyes got wet.
My cousin Wardon Ryder Staff Sergeant waist gunner on B17 Sad Sack shot down over English Channel, November 23rd 1943. No one survived. May Wardon and all who flew in those bombers never be forgotten.
I can't even begin to imagine what all of our people went through so all of the survivors and the rest of us could have the freedoms we all have today
don't forget the pilots were almost always in their early 20s -- regular guys who volunteered for the Army Air Corps. God bless them!
I'm sure some folks placed a lot of effort into this production. Kudo's accordingly. Some comments have been made regarding the many inaccuracies. Here's a couple more. 'Lost hydraulics in one engine'. No, way. There are no Pesco HYD pumps on a 17's 1820-97 engines. (There was a forestry air tanker 1960's modification for this in post war times for the #3 engine to provide an additional redundant pump). The only HYD appliances on the 17 are the cowl flaps and brakes. Additionally, during wartime, the G model chin turret guns were hydraulically charged. Of course, we do not have the gun chargers in modern times in the 17. The hydraulic 'shelf' for this is electrically operated and is located behind the co-pilot, side fuselage wall, at the bomb bay bulkhead. It would be adjacent to the top turret.
Even more glaring.... the landing gear is not hydraulic on the 17. Both the landing gear and flaps are electrically actuated - 28V DC from either the 3 batts or (with an engine operating and switched online) the 4 generators (one 200 amp GEN installed on each engine). If the engine is not turning, it's GEN is not functioning. It's true the gear is 'cranked' (hydraulically actuated gear is not cranked. there are other methodologies used) as mentioned with a coupling to the jack screws. 279 turns per wheel. And, it takes a while due to the gearing ratio....you typically take turns. I have had to do it twice for various reasons in the 14 years I have been flying the 17 .
Also; @4.50 ''..engine 3 is out..'' Screen shows port inboard prop dead.? on the B17 the port inboard engine is No.2 not No. 3. Apart from small discrepancies like these the film was enjoyable but tough to watch when you remember that so many fine young men lived (and died) this way for real.
And wasn't it the lead bomber who starts the bomb run and the rest of the group follow? It seemed like this featured plane dropped its bombs on its own accord while it was in the middle of the entire formation.
you nailed it. thanks
LoL that was awesome!!!
Good for you
My grandfather was a flak 88 gunner, (a loader actually), he did't talk much about the war.
Miss him very much.....
Friend of my dad's was a waist gunner in a '17. His was one of the first flights to encounter the Me-262 jet fighter-interceptor. He was flabbergasted by its speed and hitting power (4x 30mm machine cannon). A good burst could shred anything we flew. He said if they'd been introduced just 3 months earlier, they'd have stopped our daylight bombing campaign cold due to excessive losses.
🧢🧢🧢
If they say "Roger, that." one more time...
My Uncle was a tail gunner. He did his 25 and stayed on for a few more missions because they were short tail gunners.
My uncle was a tail gunner too! Frank Carney! Small world!
@@Wraith40A My Uncle was Sydney Paul.
Lost my uncle over Germany. Tail gunner. His air hose shot in half. What brave men these were.
My uncle was a waist gunner never talked much about it. But What caught my eye was this:
1. most of the crew including the pilots were not wear their steel pots when coming into the flak. This was always a must and part of their training.
2. German fighters do not engage targets In the middle of the flak zone. They either engage before the bombers they entered flak zone or wait for the bombers on the return trip.
Yeah MikeDarr61, the German interceptors would have been dummkopfs to fly through their own AA flak.
One of my relatives was a flight engineer on a B24 in Italy. 764th Bomb Squadron, 461st Bomb Group, 15th Air Force.
For an independent film, this is ok. Made a few years ago so some of the cgi scenes are a bit iffy. Typical over the top daring do, aka Ben Afflick in Pearl harbour. At the end of the day as long as people continue to recreate these epic days, and in their way pay homage and respect to a very brave generation, I will continue to watch them.
The men who flew in those planes were full of toxic masculinity in today's times. Balls as big as grapefruits. Thank god for them.
It's just adrenaline junkies, gotta love that! Love the smell of napalm in the morning, but really true heroes
My friends dad was a tail gunner on a Lancaster Bomber. Of 19 in his class in training he was the only one to see out the war.
This is just like Memphis Belle, except with more casualties on their mission. God bless our heroes in the sky.
God bless all the fighting men in that war, but you must remember that there is always to sides of the coin, your heroes were someone elses villains as civilians burned in Hambur, Dresden, etc..
They use clips from Memphis Belle in this flick. The ball turret gunner is the same guy (Ruuudy!) ^v^
@@taproom113 Ok, I'm not the only one seeing that? looked like they had shots from every position in that movie.
If any of you are interested in this subject here on You Tube are old Army Air Core training films about how to deal with AA [ Flack ] it turns out that about 58 seconds were required from when the bomber was targeted by radar to when the shell arrived at the calculated position of the bomber. Knowing this the bomber pilots were trained to alter course at 45 second intervals so the planes would not be in the calculated position when the shell arrived .
True, but a tad difficult to do when in a formation
My cousin was a B17 co pilot in the 100th Bomb Group. He and his crew did 29 missions with 2 as Chow Hound missions.
What is a Chow Hound Mission? Could that be a piece of cake?
@@alanmadden771 at the end of the war the people of Holland were starving because of the German occupation. The B 17's were loaded up with C rations and packaged food and dropped over several cities to feed the victims of the occupation. These were known as Chow Hound missions. My cousin stayed in the Air Force for 32 years. He also flew in the Berlin Airlift delivering food and coal to the folks in West Berlin.
my grandfather was a pilot on a B 17 he had 21 missions over Germany and France, he had a very interesting life, he was shot down once and escaped back to England with the help of the French underground, he also landed his bullet riddled B17 with 2 engines running no hydraulics , plane was so badly damaged it was deemed un airworthy and scrapped for parts in England,
The bombadier controlled the plane during the bomb run, not the pilot.
And the bombadier never looked away from the eyepiece of the sight while on the bombing run as the guy did here, especially if he was lead.
That's what I was thinking too. Something else I noticed was that the bombs seems to drop faster than in actual footage, and the scene where a bomber loses control after it's right inboard engine goes out isn't realistic either.
Sometimes yes! Sometimes no!
visit the WWII Museum in New Orleans. Worth the trip. There's a B-17G hanging from the ceiling along with the Mustang
Frank Treppiedi some of the b-17's didn't have the bombadier controls to fly the plane because they were outdated
My father in laws half brother was a p-51 pilot and came to England in December of 1941. Their first big mission was the March 6th raid on Berlin. They lost 67 of 816 bombers and 11 of 150 P-51's and had poor bombing results. On March 8th Doolittle sent them on the exact same mission and they lost 37 bombers of 805 and 17 fighters of all types and managed to hit their target. The men learned to do it like Doolittle said and make the enemy suffer more losses in aerial combat. No matter what the mission looked like those young officers would say-'Yes sir, let's go. Let's do it."
Thank God for the P-51s
@@RubyBandUSA My bad! They arrived in England in December of 1943. Their first big mission was the March 6th, 1944 mission to Berlin. In spite of everything else going wrong, the P-51's were credited with 160 kills on that day.
B-17's were the toughest dang bombers of the war. No disrespect to the others, but when you can bring the dang plane home with half its flight surfaces shot away or 1 to 2 engines, yeah, tough planes
German pilots hated fighting them too, especially in tight formations like this.
@@1337penguinman I think by that time they realised with so many planes in the air heading in their direction that they were going to cop it big time and nothing they could do would stop them.
Also, read James Stewart’s autobiography. Because he flew bombers in the European theater during ww2, and flew 20 combat missions during the war. This will also give you insight of bomber command, during the war.
I grew up very near to the US Cemetery and Memorial at Madingley in Cambridgeshire. Most of the men buried there or whose names are inscribed on the memorial were 8th Air Force crewmen. There are way too many.
I'm an American and did my Ph D at Cambridge. I spent a lot of time at Madingley - nice quiet place to walk and think and read ( on the one day a year when it didn't look like rain) and pay homage to those who gave everything for future generations.
@@johnfleming1828
Definitely a beautiful place to go for quiet reflection. And to remember.
As a Canadian, I take my hat off to these American bomber crews. The Americans made sorties day and night. Our Canadian guys only flew at night. The bellies of our Lancaster bombers were painted black. Anyway, the American crews had two pilots where the Canadian crews had only one "skipper". There was a very possible likelihood that one of the B-17 pilots would get killed, so they needed a second pilot. In the RCAF, you flew 30 ops (operations) and that was your tour of duty. You could then choose to do another 30 or become a trainer. One story I recall a belly-gunner's hatch jammed and he couldn't bail out when the plane had been hit and was going to crash. His buddy stayed as long as he could trying to get the hatch to open. The gunner told him to save himself. The friend bailed out but it was too low for his chute to open fully. He was killed. Incredibly, the belly-gunner survived the crash and escaped the burning Lanc'.
Fighters that were converging on the bomber stream would never close when there was that much flak. They would attack outside the flak envelope on the ingress to target, and return after the bombers were on their egress.
Exactly. The entire construct for unescorted bombers was that with their onboard weapons they would provide mutually supported cover for one another. The Luftwaffe practice was to attack from high and behind, working at the margins. No pilot worth his salt is going to fly right between them, especially not during flak. But, hey....it looks good.
Except when they did. It was a dirty messy war. Everything that could happen pretty much did happen. And then some.
@@slehar True, but there were only two reasons to fly into that much flak . . . 1) Suicide always an option. 2) Stupidity or Inexperience would be the other Other than that , no one , including B-17 crews would want to fly into that much flak if they had a choice. German fighter defense would attack before B-17s were over the flak guns and again when the B-17s were on their way home.
Movies are made to entertain us, not enlighten us to facts or reality. A late friend of mine who was on the Ploesti raid in 1943 hated the 1990 movie Memphis Belle because of its juvenile portrayal of the crew. He was adamant that if any crew had behaved that way, they would not have made it anywhere near 25 missions.
While movies are intended to entertain and not so much inform. Multiple sources including from Robert Johnson (P47 pilot) in his book "Thunderbolt!" now out of print, but you can find it, state that on occasion the Germans did fly into their own flak in their attempts to take down the bombers. Not often, but more than once. Casualty rates among the bomber crews were about 66%, losing one B-17 meant losing 10 men. During the summer of 1943 losing 30 or more aircraft (300 men) was not uncommon and that count doesn't include those that made it back.
I have one word for all of these gentlemen who flew these planes: Thanks be to God for saving all of us.
There was this guy who joined the 100th BG, the 'Bloody One Hundredth', as it was called, and his first run was over Regensburg, part of the Schweinfurt raid. Known as "Mission No. 84". Well all but one of the B-17s in his combat box were shot down (his made it back.) When he got out of the plane he said to another guy.... "Are they all like this?"
Deaf Smith, Box D
God help us all if we have rely on this generation! We're toast!!!!
@@waltbullet1287 The trouble with that kind of myopic thinking is that you over look the vast majority of the folks between 18 and 25 that have their noses to the grind stone working to make their own future. I'm 67. There were plenty of slackers from my age group too. Some of them grew out of it. Some never did and drank themselves to death or drugged it up too hard. It is easy to complain about 'lazy' kids. Stop looking for them and start recognizing the ones that actually are contributing to the future. Even the WW II generation had its slackers. Two of my uncles fit that mind set, but ended up serving during the war. One came home to be a town leader, the other made love to a beer bottle every chance he got.
@@cdjhyoung Well said. Thank you sir. I too am 67 and feel the same.
That plane was piloted by Bob (Rosie) Rosenthal and the navigator was Harry Crosby, both friends of my old man, who was also in the Bloody 100th as a ROG, but, thankfully, not on that mission. He he'd been hurt during a run in with a deuce and half on his bicycle. His plane was among those lost and all the crew but waist gunner, Howard Clanton managed to safely bail out.
Uncle Bill, tail gunner in a Lancaster bomber, the only one of the crew who made it out, beaten up by civilians when he landed. POW thereafter. He didn’t talk about it. Gone now, never forgotten, a small man in height but in no other way.
The late Senator John McCain was roughed-up by Vietnamese civilians when he parachuted into the Hoan Kiem Lake (Lake of the Restored Sword) in central Hanoi after his Navy F-4 was shot down. He struggled free of his parachute in the water as the air raid subsided, kicked his way ashore, and stood up with .45 in hand. By that time dozens of Vietnamese air raid wardens and other civilians had began to cluster around, so he dropped the pistol and surrendered. They beat him so badly he had to be rescued by a VN military police detachment which arrived on the scene.
My Father flew with the 17th Air Force out of Italy on the B-17. He told me it was not the ME 109 they feared but the FW 190. He said they were much harder to shoot down.
Frank Fowlkes not the 17th Air Force, but the 15th Air Force. There was no 17th during the war in Europe. 12th and 15th in Italy, 8th and 9th in England.
@@patrickmccrann991 You are correct. My mistake.
@@frankfowlkes7872 No problem. 12th and 9th were tactical with Light/Medium bombers and Fighter bombers (B-25/26, A-20, and P-47/51). 8th and 15th were strategic with Heavy bombers (B-17 and B-24)
@@patrickmccrann991 Dad was a waist gunner in a B-17. He flew 50 missions near the end of the war. He didn't get to Italy until October of 1944. He said his plane was silver not the green you see in most movies.
@@frankfowlkes7872 There was a point where the USAAF switched to natural metal. The planes could fly faster, higher and further without the paint, there was no need to conceal the aircraft on the ground any more and they actually wanted the Germans to find them in the air so they could shoot them down!
The entire crew manual for the B-17, though classified at the time, is now available online. It was essentially the "owner's manual" Boeing included with each aircraft that discussed observations to be made at walk-around, take-off, climb out, combat tactics, emergency procedures, etc. Well worth a read. For one thing, it's great as a BS detector in movies featuring the B-17 -- "They couldn't do that!" It also brings home to the reader the lengths the Americans went to to safeguard their aircrew as much as possible -- via redundant systems, manual overrides for otherwise automatic systems, lifesaving gear (including a fully-provisioned rubber raft, life rings, inflatable vests, various survival radios and other signaling equipment, manual release procedure for hung-up bombs, multiple fire suppression systems, etc.). Other nations omitted much of this stuff to save weight and improve range and airspeed, but to the US its people were more important. Our culture, including our military culture, valued the individual human life too much to let a contractor cut corners. This attitude remains in place today. Believe it or not, even when designing a war machine that's meant to be used in incredibly risky environments, a key consideration for Americans is, "How can we make this thing as safe as possible to operate, consistent with mission, regardless of expense?"
The German fighters always left the bombers over the target due to the possibility of getting hit by their own flak. Also, that was a _hell_ of a lot of flak for Sicily. The U-boat pens in France and the oil refineries received the most flak guns.
Yep, doubtful that any fighter pilot would have flown into any flak. At the speeds they were traveling it would be almost certain suicide.
@@northdakotaham1752 -- The thing is, when the bombers are on their way to the target, the Luftwaffe only had to avoid the escort fighters, running into a bomber, and other Luftwaffe fighters. Now throw their own flak into that mix. Yeah. Not gonna happen.
@@OneHitWonder383 when the flak stopped....thats when the gunners had to wake up and look out. Can't say whether the bombers had an escort that far enough. I suppose it depended upon the target.
@@northdakotaham1752 -- Let us not forget that the gunners on the B-17s and B-24s had enough ammunition for about 1.5 to 1.75 _minutes_ of continuous firing. And some of those targets meant 8 to 10 hours of flying time.
All were men who went through experiences that humans weren't meant to. But of all of those men the infantry soldiers on the ground had the worst of it, 24-7 for the duration, they didn't come back to a safe base every night. My father was wounded in the Pacific and my uncle was airborne, 101, jumped every battle, was an pathfinder before D-day, fought during the battle of the bulge and when the war ended, enlisted in the navy and became a aviation navigator.
Unfortunately, B-17 Flying Fortresses were painted a flat olive drab green and did not glisten in the sun light. The paint from flying so many missions at altitude was weathered and dry looking. Also, a lot of the areas around the radial engines had oil stains and streaks from the long hours of use.
"Aluminum overcast". By mid 44, bombers were being delivered in super-polished finish. Olive drab was passe. More labor, more weight, more spares. Anyways, the special effects folks may have been depicting glass glitter.
@@jefftheriault5522 A polished airframe also allows several knots' greater airspeed.
@@jefftheriault5522 None of them were polished, they were delivered in mill finish aluminum. which saved about 800 lbs of weight.
I think that the B17 was one of the greatest engineering feats in the air! What surprised me was the actual size of the plane. I walked through Sentimental Journey 32 years ago and was amazed that I could touch the fuselage on both sides.
My family is peppered with veterans. My dad saw combat in Korea, one my uncles saw combat on Iwo Jima in WW2 with the marines, my father-in-law was in Europe during WW2, had a cousin in 'Nam and two more uncles retired from the Air Force. I grew up honoring these guys, and others through them. It pains to see modern youngsters who do not value the actions of these men, and sometimes women.
Iconic aircraft with brave crews but it had a pretty small bomb load for such a large aircraft. The Lancaster could carry over 3 times the bomb load and the Mosquito only 800lb less than early B17 models at speeds fast enough to outrun attacking fighters. Of course the B17 had a longer range.
The M-5 steel helmets worn by some of the crew were only distributed Between June 1945-August 1945, they would have been wearing either the standard leather flying helmet or a field modified M-1 infantry helmet, the first dedicated aircrew steel helmet the M-3 was introduced in December 1943 and distributed until June 1945.
Thank you Gentlemen for your service.
I am grateful. 💝