I add in his other superhero forms as well: Mr. Mom, Beetlejuice, and many Multiplicity super clones. Edit: Yeah they weren't exactly fliers, but still an amazing actor and portfolio.
Keaton was *brilliant* as Toombs. Like Zemo and Killmonger, you really get why he is doing what he's doing. The motivations are clear and believable. He's just turned it up to 11. Keaton really gets into it, and it's great. The nuances of his performance in the opening scene where Damage Control comes in to take over absolutely makes it. His "face acting" during his line, "I bought trucks for this job. I brought in a whole new crew, these guys have family. I have family." is great.
Toomes did NOT get fired. He took out extra loans to pay for equipment in order to do a salvage job he was contracted. Then he lost the salvage job due to legislation. At worst, he should have been legally able to sue the state/city government to reimburse him for losses since they gave him a salvage job and then took it away.
Remember Ryan, “Utopia” translated from original Greek mean “No place” or “No Where.” Which is why the Celestial head is called “Knowhere” which is the closest thing to an Utopia that Marvel has.
This was such a great video, probably one of SC's best in a long time tbh. You can definitely always tell when a vid is written by Pavel T, always so well written with a good understanding of the sociological factors that make superhero stories interesting for mature audiences, incorporating analysis that manages to synthesize reasonable support for the video's central thesis and actually justifies the title of the video that could've otherwise be seen as controversial/clickbait. TL;DR, well done!!
It seemed like the Avengers were busting low level hydra bases right before Age of Ultron, they were looking for Lokis schepter after SHIELD fell. Tony says "We can bust drug dealers all day king but that up there, thats the end game."
In Sam Wilson's "do better" speech, his loan being denied, and him getting recognition for Isaiah Bradley shows he's moving towards those steps along with Spiderman in "helping the little guy" and "friendly neighborhood Spiderman"
What you were saying about the villains getting their hands on supersoldier syrum and possibly multiverse quantum tech reminded me of the end of batman begins with gordon’s lines of “what about escalation? We carry semi automatics they buy automatics. We start wearing kevlar, they start wearing armor pissing rounds.”
Your sticks an stones may break my bones but your words at best can incarcerate me an u in some places even worse yet true peace comes from finding solutions that take what is so sought after an making available to all in a fair equal an just way.
@theoutlawking9123, to be fair, I dont blame Ms.Marvel (Carol Danvers) if she is part of that Avengers hypocrisy cause she has a right to be resentful of the X-men for them being forgiving towards Mystique
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Yeah, the X-Men constantly forgiving their enemies always leads to their downfall, it honestly makes them look really stupid, like Amazingly so.
@@theoutlawking9123 If they never forgave Magneto, then mutants could've gone extinct. He played a big role in defending Kitty and Wolverine from the sentinels.
Underrated yes. I’d argue he’s equal to or a little less than Killmonger though. They’re both really great villains. Out of all the villains the MCU should not ever kill and should reuse, those two are at the top of my list.
@@HypocritesExposd I wish Vulture was in Thunderbolts, fuck Sony, and fuck Avi Arad and fuck Amy Pascal for screwing over Vulture. Pascal and Arad arent even real adults.
I'm confused. At first, Ryan admits that Tony and the rest of the Avengers couldn't do more for the world because they are just one team and have to look at the big picture so that the planet Earth can continue even existing. Several minutes later he says, no they should have done more. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is the reason why Wilson Fisk is allowed to continue extorting and destroying lives, the heroes have too much "faith in the system" and refuse to see that they're not really changing anything because they refuse to take the next step. As long as they continue to be passive, criminals will always have a leg up on them in the long run.
This perspective adds a lot to MCU spiderman's story arc, the trilogy ending, and I'm looking forward to what they can do with it. It puts a lot more weight on the decisions Peter made in the home trilogy (declining to be an avenger, leaving MJ & Ned alone post memory wipe, live in the crumby apartment on his own but still fight crime/corruption). We really went on the hero journey with him and saw him offered great resource to eventually turn it down to unthankfully stop crime after he realizes the weight of the loss and in real day to day what the weight of the responsibility is (not just the philosophy of it). He had access to magic spells, super tech, secret spy organizations, and high profile people. Not saying he took the journey without temptation but it was a really human story. We grow up with him and see him become "the best of us".
Good point, but like in our world, I could see an out of court, hush money settlement ending the discussion quickly. Toomes would have used those funds to recuperate his business losses but the result would have been similar. If he was a heartless industrialist (which his character certainly is not), then he would have cut his losses and moved on. He seemed to care for his crew on a more personal level than that, and I could see him using the funds as well as the alien tech to better their lives anyway. Toomes is the ultimate anti-hero.
@@MarcSadowski That would mean spending more money that he didn't even have on court and lawyer fees. After spending a lot of money, his chances of winning the lawsuit was slim considering who he was going up against.
the single most unbelievable part of that movie...just the Marketing and IP rights of his superhero persona would have made him an eye wateringly wealthy man...not to mention he works pretty much full time for one of the worlds Richest men.
@@reginesaguin1191 he was an eye witness and combatant in Endgame where the Avengers fought off and ultimately beat Thanos...within 1 day of him being unbliped he'd have a book deal advance and a list of paid speaking engagements as long as your arm to fill in any holes in his accounts... its easier to believe his flight suit actually works than accept he couldn't afford to fix up a broken fishing boat using his name recognition alone.. there is a an ice cream flavor using his super hero IP for heavens sake...
@@johntowers1213 I learned the hard way that you can't do any of those things if you have a security clearance, which Sam and an Air force officer and a U.S. Agent would have had to contend with. and then I learned that even if you leave service, they are security clauses you can't escape.
@@dellytancyl524 dude if Ex presidents can write tell all books and go on speaking tours with their clearance so could the Falcon...Hell Hillary Clinton was charging $650,000 a time for her speaking Engagements..its just dumb lazy writing that's all it is.... there simply is no defending it
It’s scope vs spectrum. Collectively, every human’s intention inherently is the good for one another, as any hero should think. They and the Vulture are alike, but the Vulture’s scope at the moment is his own and his family’s well-being, a deed he got blinded by in the end. His spite on the Avengers and those in power is their mistake on utilizing their scope as they are deemed powerful and privileged, which is a fallacy. Not every hero (street level guys like Spidey and the MCU Defenders) can think about the well-being of everyone at a given time. Even worse, only a small number of them can be heard to make a big difference (the case of Falcon/Captain America over GRC’s policies until a threat like the Flag Smashers came knocking). Heroes in the MCU have always been portrayed as reactive heroes which is a sort of literary symbol of how the real world usually just reacts to something bad happening rather than preventative (except Tony). Their spectrum are the same but their scope are different, and in the case of the heroes, misunderstood. This is also why relatable villains are the best ones, coz there’s nothing more gripping than an audience divided between the protagonist and the antagonist.
The Avengers don't defend the earth and humanity, I mean it sure looks like they do, but more than that, they defend the status quo. It's almost always the antagonist who try to change things in a fundamental way. The only exception to this rule I've found is Captain America when he decides not to salvage anything left of SHEILD but demolish it completely in the Winter Soldier movie, my favorite solo outing in the MCU.
To me, one strange aspect of these Marvel movies is that the societal questioning and status quo challenges usualy comes from the villains. It's not hard to see something like this in the plot of these movies: "Oh, they were in the right path, it's a shame that some individuals got corrupted by selfish reasons in the process. Anyways, let's stick with what we were doing and hope things workout whithout, at least, having some meaningful and impactiful changes to the world. Thanks Avengers for getting rid of this villains!". It's like it's easier to imagine a bunch of aliens in far galaxies blasting rays of energy from their eyes than to imagine a decline to social disparity or hungry here on our very real planet.
Tony is a philanthropist who funded a boatload of R&D at MIT. Surely that would result in some betterment. The rest of the Avengers don't have that kind of money, what do you expect them to do? Soup kitchens? Cap did all of those PSA's for high schools. Spidey made public appearances for community charity. Other real life multi-billionaires do the same thing today, except Musk who just likes to blast off rockets - which aren't even electric.
It IS worth noting that in the comic version of Civil War 1 it was Tony and not Fury who implemented the '50 State Initiative' which attempted to organize an official Avengers team for each state to reduce the strain on the main team and shorten response times, as well as have the public feel more personally connected with their local super heroes. This was probably the last really well fleshed out major crossover event in the last few years of comics, a lot of material went down hill after Dark Avengers and Avengers Vs X-Men
I feel like this video inadvertently explained the possible overarcing theme of phases 4-6. It seemed that the goals of the heroes are too scattered and spread thin that has unlcear ways of leading up to the next Avengers film, but people failed to recognize that the build up is happening on the government's side, leading up to the formation of Dark Avengers. Just like SHIELD in the infinity saga, DODC has been in a lot of these current productions.
14:43 Sam also, by extension, got duped into working for the person who helped cause all the entire mess as Sharon Carter was the one providing Super Soldier Serum to agitants and then basically used Falcon and Winter Soldier to cover up her involvement, all to get her un/blacklisted by the US.
I think that vulture was a very honest villain and I think it was obvious that tombes was absolutely right and he was the perfect “villain” for first Spider-Man just because he was financially motivated and not world take over bound
The very concept of Las Vegas blows my mind. It shows that we can turn even a desert with a sprawling city. Imagine if you had Stark Tech? Floating cities? Islands out of thin air? I remember him mentioning "Intelli-crops" in part one. Imagine a world where literally no one goes hungry again.
Nick Fury said it best when he said the Avengers were created to handle the threats that they never could. Vision's logic does have some merit but in the end, you are taking away individual human agency and placing responsibility on others...government or superhero. Tony Stark or Doctor Strange using their abilities takes away personal responsibility. You can take the claim that they had a responsibility to make lives better and scale it way down to yourself. How many lives are YOU personally making better with your level of ability and affluence? See how that never works?
Great video guys - I love these kind of chats / thoughts / ideas, they are like the flip side of the coin or the stuff that goes on outside of frame from the films. With the Hawkeye series I thought we would get a lot of stories about what happened after the blip and the reappearance of people. Do more of this type of piece - very thought provoking 👍
I watched GOTG3 again recently and was reminded that Gamora comes from a timeline that no longer exists. Would love to blame that on the Avengers, but didn't Thanos use Pym Particles to come to the battle at Endgame? Sure, the world was already in process of incurring an incursion, but the TVA says the Avengers were supposed to time travel, but say nothing about Thanos, who was inevitable. Gamora should be dead, Peter even questioned it in GOTG3. Idk what it could mean either that she's alive, other than being a different Gamora all together.
Look at it from the total view of loki at the end of time, from the perspective of a in-universe character, time is linear, but outside of time, any changes have "always been". Whatever happens to the timelines/universes, those inside don't know a difference, everything just is or isn't. So from a total view, that timeline that the new Gamora is from is probably still there, but during endgame it probably got pruned by the tva once the avengers snapped the nexus-causing beings and returned the infinited stones. Any changes to that timeline were always planned from the beginning, since it was part of He Who Remain's plan. Once loki became the ruler of the timelines that "prunning" was not essential anymore as he's protecting the making of any new branches from now on.
Your arguments were excellent. Might be the first time I agreed with almost everything you said. You had some "Maybe So-And-So Was Right" that totally reached for the moon, but this one was quite good.
The Fantastic Four movie has to be a different reality because they would make the world a better place. They couldn't have been here all along and it not show in the world. I think they are going to be asking the same questions of the Avengers eventually.
What do people expect the Avengers to do about making a way of life better? There’s only so much that 6-14 individuals can do on that level That sounds like that “You need to do better Senator. You need to step up” nonsense
There are arguments. Here's one, at the end of Iron Man 3 Tony actually fixed extremis, and probably got it to a point that it would have operated in the best manner which would've revolutionized their world. The one the Shield show had was flawed if I remember correctly. I may be missing some things. Pym Particles would have changed earth forever in the positive. Wakanda has the resources to change earth forever. Asgard couldve done amazing things for earth. The Avengers dropped the ball in a lot of ways. That's why they'll never be better than thr X Men. For all their flaws they still try to heal the world for those who are again them an aren't like them an are more relatable than the Avengers. To be super powered beings they're more human than anyone on the Avengers.
There's a lot that 6-14 individuals can do, though. Take Tony for example. In a single action, he could release a patent for the arc reactor into the public domain and solve a ton of problems. The world gets relatively clean energy, for virtually free costs. This would have far reaching ramifications. Water and food shortages could largely be solved by this because now we can power desalinization plants and just physically pump the water to places that need it. Sure, the plants and pipelines cost money, but now that energy is basically free, that frees up the monetary resources to do this. Climate change to a large degree is also solved. Arguably the biggest driver of inflation lately and certainly THE biggest factor in market volatility goes poof. Now yeah, other countries and militaries would also weaponize it similar to how Tony himself weaponized the technology. Not every change and ramification is a good one. However, if you ask the 4/8 billion people on the planet if those risks are worth the other rewards, it would be a resounding yes. Is Tony building and installing every single reactor in every single city? No. There'd be millions of people involved. But it all starts with the actions of just one person. Imagine how many work injuries could be solved with anti-gravity tools? In general, go watch most Marvel movies and essentially the message largely boils down to protecting the status quo is good, disrupting the status quo is bad.
This all again leads to one character that is like equal parts the best and worst. Doctor Doom, who will do things to do what he sees as bettering the world, or at least his country. But he is also a dictator and bad in other areas.
So Zemo and vulture team up and start a popular class war- like in the falcon and winter soldier show. Problem is should hero’s fight the people they are supposed to defend for class status?? Deep concept and brings the story back to a relatable earth.
An MCU show with the villains as the protagonists with one of the avengers as the antagonist could be really cool. In the bigger picture the avengers side of the battle is still in the right but we get to see it from the villains pov. That would be dope
@@ThatGuyGloomy I wish Vulture was in Thunderbolts, fuck Sony, and fuck Avi Arad and fuck Amy Pascal for screwing over Vulture. Pascal and Arad arent even real adults.
Is this why Peter Parker refused the new Spider-Man out at the end of Homecoming at the new Avenger’s facility? Let’s not get too big too soon is the thought…
You know…. Despite all their power no matter how much they save the world or the universe you would think with all the resources they would have done something to improve society down to earth but instead… the heroes have became ignorant to pass the time with something thats more important than a street criminal
I think we're missing just how bad the situation was for Earth. Without Cap, Hydra would have won WW2. Bye bye America. Without the Avengers, the aliens would have conquered Earth and Thanos would still get all the Infinity Stones but no one would be around to reverse it. Compared to that, I think what the Vultures of the world got wasn't so bad after all.
The reason the vultures keep crying about injustice is bcz they are small short sighted lepers. That's why Thanos tells Tony they both are cursed with knowledge.
Okay yeah Toomes is right that he doesn't have a fair shot. That's just life. Like, real life. But his contempt, and the point of this video, is misplaced. It's not the Avengers' job to mitigate economic inequality. Like you said, they're not the government. Not their monkeys, not their circus.
Imagine if all of the writers were on the same page and were able to tell a collective narrative between each movie to build a cohesive universe. Maybe we’ll get that post Secret Wars.
Here's something people don't talk about: the Young Avengers might actually be the Champions...the Avengers failure to improve the quality of life on earth that Ryan describes is an issue in the comics as well, and that's why Ms Marvel breaks off from the Avengers and forms the champions. She is also forming the team in the MCU, but it consists of young Avengers members. So it might be like a combination of the two teams.
I mean if you need even more evidence that Vulture was right about rich people (Aka Tony) look to the ending (and I KNOW most of this was for plot and or filming conveniences, I'm just saying how it speaks to the character in the context of the story) Tony is AWARE someone is stealing his tech and using it to make weapons to distribute to criminals in a major metropolitan city, this has happened multiple times and he can't even be BOTHERED to have ANYONE or ANYTHING substantial guard his shipment of tech, a good portion of it is created by HIM! To the point a kid has basically step in and do what TONY SHOULD BE DOING, and in the end the guy can't even say a thank you, just tries to placate Peter with a new suit?
This would be a great theme to touch in those future fantastic four movies! The avengers are an elite strike force, what Ultron said to captain america is actually valid to all of them: They could not live without a war. The avengers don’t go out doing research and discovering cures for diseases and etc. Maybe Bruce and Tony, but that wasn’t the focus of their work. Reed and the FF could fill this place and be a team that worries about the future of the world and the people living in it
This reminds of the comics crossover between the Avengers and the Justice League, where the JLA is surprised that the Avengers haven't improved their earth.
Btw, this also calls back to Avengers Vs X-Men where Cyclops called out Captain America because The Avengers have never done anything to help Mutants and their suffering. This is one of the many great things about the X-Men, they've gone on missions to save just one person before. They don't ignore the little guy because as rich as Xavier is, he sees all mutants and humans as important. I think this is also why people tend to connect more with a street level hero like Daredevil then more god like heroes like Thor.
This is why we need S.H.I.E.L.D. Back Nothing was beneath them They just had the weight of the world against them Everyone was hunting them, and the threats kept getting bigger, and bigger They were finally reestablished in the wake of the Secovia Accords, and the break up of the Avengers Only for Coulsons group to . . . Ahhhh. . . . Warp out of our MCU, and into a few other timelines/universe’s??? But We need Shield Back They kept the world safe, nothing was beneath them, and they ultimately saved the world more than the Avenger’s ever did
This is a good point about superhero fights. How many people died in Johannesburg when the Avengers captured the Hulk in Age of Ultron? My estimation is at least hundreds if not thousands.
I always thought that if the Vulture had gone to the media or contacted Tony in some way, explaining that he is ruined because of the formation of Damage Control, that Tony would have helped him out. Instead, he just instantly became a super villain.
I’ve never understood why the Falcon (in the Falcon and Winter Soldier series) needed a bank loan. Why didn’t billionaire Tony Stark throw everyone on the Avengers team a few million a year? Or why wouldn’t the governments give them money as consultants? They were certainly cheaper than what space ships and weapons would cost.
@@TheGreenTulips or the fact his alter ego is on lunch boxes and a million other bits of merch in this universe.. the dude would be rolling in cash just from the licencing fee's to use his likeness on all those products
@@johntowers1213 You’re right. I just get so caught up in the universe and “suspend my disbelief.” Then, after I watch it it’s like….hey wait a minute! That doesn’t sound right!
@@TheGreenTulipsMight i remind you Sam was on the run for two years and was blipped for 5 years that take out a lot money from ya and remember discrimination still exist
You know what... You're so right, what I want to see at the movie theater is Tony Stark, hulk, Thor, black widow, ect come together to solve logistical problems. Like setting up, food banks, and finding housing for 4 billion people. That sounds fantastic and riveting to watch a real nail bitter. If only I could see hulk go to work as a city planner my life would be complete..
This video could have been the through line of the Multiverse saga ending the first era chapter. Than our reward as an audience should have been Avengers: The Secret Wars Saga ( present). That way Secret Invasion could have time to truly breathe and have a proper ending that would have deserved the reaction of the world governments to respond with the current Captain America question. Captain America: World 🌎 governments do better World Governments: okay 👌 we will respond with Dark Avengers/ The Red Hulk/ Thunderbolts/etc This was a real well thought exploration of what happens when governments/ The Avengers over extend themselves instead of working in cooperation and synchronized forces. The result of the fallout of damaging the public in real time in world conflicts and disruptions of civilization discourse. Bringing that great powers not only comes with great responsibility. But used wrongly/ abused/ with apathy comes with great consequences giving the grounded Avengers stake and claim that keeps them grounded. Because the issues that happen on Earth/ happen in different planets 🪐 or universes or timelines. It’s the struggle the Avengers constantly face to keep an agreement of everything simply trying to exist coherently and cohesively together while Mis- intentioned characters will always want to be disrupters to get power and control. Deal with characters who will always feel the existence of others threaten their very existence.
To be fair in Antman and Wasp Quantumania it's revealed that Hope VanDyne is using her company and intelligence to aid in reforestation, affordable housing, and food production. Also Tony in Captain America Civil War was finding college students' research projects. So I wouldn't say they weren't doing anything on the community scale.
Well, in the first avengers Nick Fury was working on weaponizing alien tech and used it to revive Coulson; He also created (with help of the scrulls) the harvest. Not the grearest of plots but as usual is always ahead of the curve. Fury sees the bigger picture and if he wanted could get the avengers to do better.
I will never stop loving that Keaton went from Batman to Birdman to Vulture (to Batman again).
Haha agreed. Birdman was good stuff
As long as he NEVER plays hawkman. SUCH a stupid looking character.
I add in his other superhero forms as well: Mr. Mom, Beetlejuice, and many Multiplicity super clones. Edit: Yeah they weren't exactly fliers, but still an amazing actor and portfolio.
Don’t forget Beetlejuice.
Keaton was *brilliant* as Toombs.
Like Zemo and Killmonger, you really get why he is doing what he's doing. The motivations are clear and believable. He's just turned it up to 11.
Keaton really gets into it, and it's great. The nuances of his performance in the opening scene where Damage Control comes in to take over absolutely makes it. His "face acting" during his line, "I bought trucks for this job. I brought in a whole new crew, these guys have family. I have family." is great.
Vulture: I just want to provide for my family.
Spider-Man: I missed the part where that's my problem.
Ew
@@Planag7it works here
Toomes did NOT get fired. He took out extra loans to pay for equipment in order to do a salvage job he was contracted. Then he lost the salvage job due to legislation. At worst, he should have been legally able to sue the state/city government to reimburse him for losses since they gave him a salvage job and then took it away.
100%
He can’t sue. His contract with the government would allow them to nullify the contract at any time. That’s standard.
And risk losing even more money on court and lawyer fees? The chance of winning his case is low, considering who he's suing.
@@williammorgan7769
He would still likely have a civil case to cover the costs of things he had already done for the job.
Right? That would have made for the best movie ever🤦
When you realized that the Vulture could've ratted Peter Parker out to the world before Mysterio did.
But he didn't cause he wasn't trying to get recognition or fame, he was a blue collar worker and understood that, he also understood Peter was a kid.
@@tobiaslawrence8928not to mention.. Peter saved his life
Mind blowing 🤯
when you realized that there is water in the ocean.
@@brandonmunsen6035was literally the story!
Exact same on our earth, theres enough technology and resources to feed, clothe, heal and shelter everyone yet the greed of the few wins.
I say this all the time. They would rather make a weapon every time when some communities don't even have clean drinking water.
Yet no one has ousted any of the few to the world yet. Like tiny Tim an the scrooge.
Remember Ryan, “Utopia” translated from original Greek mean “No place” or “No Where.” Which is why the Celestial head is called “Knowhere” which is the closest thing to an Utopia that Marvel has.
Excellent note. More meant it would never exist.
Utopia is right off the coast of San Fran in Marvel.
@changingthelawsofphysics a e I o u and sometime y
Utopia would be possible, if humans weren't human.
@@MontgomeryWenisBut that Utopia could never have anyone living there...
This was such a great video, probably one of SC's best in a long time tbh. You can definitely always tell when a vid is written by Pavel T, always so well written with a good understanding of the sociological factors that make superhero stories interesting for mature audiences, incorporating analysis that manages to synthesize reasonable support for the video's central thesis and actually justifies the title of the video that could've otherwise be seen as controversial/clickbait. TL;DR, well done!!
vulture really was among the better marvel villains
Out of the box refreshing videos like these is why I watch your channel Ryan
It seemed like the Avengers were busting low level hydra bases right before Age of Ultron, they were looking for Lokis schepter after SHIELD fell. Tony says "We can bust drug dealers all day king but that up there, thats the end game."
Yet in men in black cutting there heads off wasn't working either ? 😂 so does that mean the departments or writing our movies scripts?
In Sam Wilson's "do better" speech, his loan being denied, and him getting recognition for Isaiah Bradley shows he's moving towards those steps along with Spiderman in "helping the little guy" and "friendly neighborhood Spiderman"
Hopefully his connection to the little guy will allow his character to be different from the usual superhero way of thinking.
What you were saying about the villains getting their hands on supersoldier syrum and possibly multiverse quantum tech reminded me of the end of batman begins with gordon’s lines of “what about escalation? We carry semi automatics they buy automatics. We start wearing kevlar, they start wearing armor pissing rounds.”
"they start using armor PIERCING rounds"...
Oh sorry. It’s kind of hard to hear with garry oldmen’s british and american accent.
Your sticks an stones may break my bones but your words at best can incarcerate me an u in some places even worse yet true peace comes from finding solutions that take what is so sought after an making available to all in a fair equal an just way.
Vulture: The Avengers are Friggin Hypocrites!
X-Men: First Time huh?
🤣
@theoutlawking9123, to be fair, I dont blame Ms.Marvel (Carol Danvers) if she is part of that Avengers hypocrisy cause she has a right to be resentful of the X-men for them being forgiving towards Mystique
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Yeah, the X-Men constantly forgiving their enemies always leads to their downfall, it honestly makes them look really stupid, like Amazingly so.
I read that in Keaton voice
@@theoutlawking9123 If they never forgave Magneto, then mutants could've gone extinct. He played a big role in defending Kitty and Wolverine from the sentinels.
Vulture is the most underrated MCU villain. I’d argue that he’s only behind thanos
Underrated yes. I’d argue he’s equal to or a little less than Killmonger though. They’re both really great villains. Out of all the villains the MCU should not ever kill and should reuse, those two are at the top of my list.
Not quite
Thanos wasn't a great villain though. He was cliche and had a misplaced god complex.
@@HypocritesExposd I wish Vulture was in Thunderbolts, fuck Sony, and fuck Avi Arad and fuck Amy Pascal for screwing over Vulture. Pascal and Arad arent even real adults.
Right up there with Thanos, Killmonger and Zemo
We really need to do Sinister Six with Michael Keaton’s Vulture. Just saying.
Faxx
The Sinister Six is probably one of the things I most want in live action.
Vulture, Green Goblin, Mysterio, Venom, the Kingpin, and Ned... the Hobgoblin. 🤔
As long as Sony doesn't have creative control.
@@mrschwartzmci was about to say this exact thing.
I'm confused. At first, Ryan admits that Tony and the rest of the Avengers couldn't do more for the world because they are just one team and have to look at the big picture so that the planet Earth can continue even existing. Several minutes later he says, no they should have done more. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You can have cake an eat it too so where is the solution or compromise that makes that an option 🤔
This is the reason why Wilson Fisk is allowed to continue extorting and destroying lives, the heroes have too much "faith in the system" and refuse to see that they're not really changing anything because they refuse to take the next step. As long as they continue to be passive, criminals will always have a leg up on them in the long run.
This perspective adds a lot to MCU spiderman's story arc, the trilogy ending, and I'm looking forward to what they can do with it. It puts a lot more weight on the decisions Peter made in the home trilogy (declining to be an avenger, leaving MJ & Ned alone post memory wipe, live in the crumby apartment on his own but still fight crime/corruption). We really went on the hero journey with him and saw him offered great resource to eventually turn it down to unthankfully stop crime after he realizes the weight of the loss and in real day to day what the weight of the responsibility is (not just the philosophy of it). He had access to magic spells, super tech, secret spy organizations, and high profile people. Not saying he took the journey without temptation but it was a really human story. We grow up with him and see him become "the best of us".
❤
In quantumania they talk about using Pym tech to solve world food problems and energy crisis.
Alternatively, Adrian Toomes could have sued because he would have had contracts signed to do the cleanup.
Good point, but like in our world, I could see an out of court, hush money settlement ending the discussion quickly. Toomes would have used those funds to recuperate his business losses but the result would have been similar. If he was a heartless industrialist (which his character certainly is not), then he would have cut his losses and moved on. He seemed to care for his crew on a more personal level than that, and I could see him using the funds as well as the alien tech to better their lives anyway. Toomes is the ultimate anti-hero.
@@troyhanson8639 I like your plan! Would have made a cooler story, too :-)
@@MarcSadowski That would mean spending more money that he didn't even have on court and lawyer fees. After spending a lot of money, his chances of winning the lawsuit was slim considering who he was going up against.
@@shawn092182he wouldn't win, stark industries just gives him like 5 mill to settle.
A Dark Avengers movie leading to an Avengers team up movie sounds like a great way to set the team up before Secret Wars.
Sam is broke asf! He couldn't pay for his family's boat
the single most unbelievable part of that movie...just the Marketing and IP rights of his superhero persona would have made him an eye wateringly wealthy man...not to mention he works pretty much full time for one of the worlds Richest men.
@@johntowers1213Two things the guys was on the run for two years and he was blipped that take a lot of money from ya
@@reginesaguin1191 he was an eye witness and combatant in Endgame where the Avengers fought off and ultimately beat Thanos...within 1 day of him being unbliped he'd have a book deal advance and a list of paid speaking engagements as long as your arm to fill in any holes in his accounts...
its easier to believe his flight suit actually works than accept he couldn't afford to fix up a broken fishing boat using his name recognition alone.. there is a an ice cream flavor using his super hero IP for heavens sake...
@@johntowers1213 I learned the hard way that you can't do any of those things if you have a security clearance, which Sam and an Air force officer and a U.S. Agent would have had to contend with. and then I learned that even if you leave service, they are security clauses you can't escape.
@@dellytancyl524 dude if Ex presidents can write tell all books and go on speaking tours with their clearance so could the Falcon...Hell Hillary Clinton was charging $650,000 a time for her speaking Engagements..its just dumb lazy writing that's all it is.... there simply is no defending it
Now they are 3 person in universe who right,
1) Thanos,
2) Baron Zemo
3) Adrian Toomes
Don’t forget Magnito was right
@@kellyrodgers8331 I know Magnito not yet appear MCU but will be same answer also right
Like if you think Natasha was the best avenger and the glue. Not Tony. It was her who kept them together.
And btw the Dark Avengers are more like the heroes of Vought Industries from The Boys
Lets not forget about Kingpin he’s also a part of the street level conflict along with both Vulture and Zemo
Hopefully, Disney can get Vulture out of the Sony's Spiderman Centered Universe.
Hopefully, we can get Marvel away from Disney.
But- but thats where all the true legends are, like Morbius, Madame Web...
This is the perfect lead in for several X-men villians, Master Mold, Nimrod, Bastion ect ect all based off Ultron
It’s scope vs spectrum. Collectively, every human’s intention inherently is the good for one another, as any hero should think. They and the Vulture are alike, but the Vulture’s scope at the moment is his own and his family’s well-being, a deed he got blinded by in the end. His spite on the Avengers and those in power is their mistake on utilizing their scope as they are deemed powerful and privileged, which is a fallacy. Not every hero (street level guys like Spidey and the MCU Defenders) can think about the well-being of everyone at a given time. Even worse, only a small number of them can be heard to make a big difference (the case of Falcon/Captain America over GRC’s policies until a threat like the Flag Smashers came knocking). Heroes in the MCU have always been portrayed as reactive heroes which is a sort of literary symbol of how the real world usually just reacts to something bad happening rather than preventative (except Tony). Their spectrum are the same but their scope are different, and in the case of the heroes, misunderstood. This is also why relatable villains are the best ones, coz there’s nothing more gripping than an audience divided between the protagonist and the antagonist.
The Avengers don't defend the earth and humanity, I mean it sure looks like they do, but more than that, they defend the status quo. It's almost always the antagonist who try to change things in a fundamental way. The only exception to this rule I've found is Captain America when he decides not to salvage anything left of SHEILD but demolish it completely in the Winter Soldier movie, my favorite solo outing in the MCU.
To me, one strange aspect of these Marvel movies is that the societal questioning and status quo challenges usualy comes from the villains. It's not hard to see something like this in the plot of these movies: "Oh, they were in the right path, it's a shame that some individuals got corrupted by selfish reasons in the process. Anyways, let's stick with what we were doing and hope things workout whithout, at least, having some meaningful and impactiful changes to the world. Thanks Avengers for getting rid of this villains!". It's like it's easier to imagine a bunch of aliens in far galaxies blasting rays of energy from their eyes than to imagine a decline to social disparity or hungry here on our very real planet.
This was pretty deep and I loved it! Well done guys!
Mission accomplished. I am all aboard the Vulture train.
Tony is a philanthropist who funded a boatload of R&D at MIT. Surely that would result in some betterment.
The rest of the Avengers don't have that kind of money, what do you expect them to do? Soup kitchens?
Cap did all of those PSA's for high schools. Spidey made public appearances for community charity.
Other real life multi-billionaires do the same thing today, except Musk who just likes to blast off rockets - which aren't even electric.
now you're getting into topics like "does philanthropy really help or is it just a way to put bandaids on without addressing real structural issues?"
It IS worth noting that in the comic version of Civil War 1 it was Tony and not Fury who implemented the '50 State Initiative' which attempted to organize an official Avengers team for each state to reduce the strain on the main team and shorten response times, as well as have the public feel more personally connected with their local super heroes.
This was probably the last really well fleshed out major crossover event in the last few years of comics, a lot of material went down hill after Dark Avengers and Avengers Vs X-Men
Magneto got everybody saying it
I honestly want the MCU to have J. Jonah Jameson be against the idea of heroes and have some of the stuff featured in this video as his reasoning.
Yall deserve more views frfr
At least Peter now has to deal with rent.
My view on Avengers changes so suddenly after I watched this. They are more villainous than a heroes.
I feel like this video inadvertently explained the possible overarcing theme of phases 4-6. It seemed that the goals of the heroes are too scattered and spread thin that has unlcear ways of leading up to the next Avengers film, but people failed to recognize that the build up is happening on the government's side, leading up to the formation of Dark Avengers. Just like SHIELD in the infinity saga, DODC has been in a lot of these current productions.
Well the thing is luke cagw. Called them out one about being a ivory tower team. That once in a while they need to see the little people.
God, I am loving this video. Stephen Strange was the adult when Peter asked him a favor. He couldn't ask Peter did you talk to them?
14:43 Sam also, by extension, got duped into working for the person who helped cause all the entire mess as Sharon Carter was the one providing Super Soldier Serum to agitants and then basically used Falcon and Winter Soldier to cover up her involvement, all to get her un/blacklisted by the US.
What other villains were right?
Zemo and Michael Keaton's Batman.
Flint Marko. He just made some bad allegiances.
Magneto consistently has better arguments and proof than Charles Xavier.
Killmonger
I think that vulture was a very honest villain and I think it was obvious that tombes was absolutely right and he was the perfect “villain” for first Spider-Man just because he was financially motivated and not world take over bound
The very concept of Las Vegas blows my mind. It shows that we can turn even a desert with a sprawling city. Imagine if you had Stark Tech? Floating cities? Islands out of thin air? I remember him mentioning "Intelli-crops" in part one. Imagine a world where literally no one goes hungry again.
Floating cities? Did you forget what happened to the helicarrier in Avengers 1?
Mentioning that no one would go hungry again, isn't that what Thanos was trying to do and prevent.🤔🤔🤔🤨🤨🤨
SUPERPRIVILEGE
I love it. Did someone quote that?
this is what happens when your superhero movies have to be approved by the US military
This was an excellent assessment
Nick Fury said it best when he said the Avengers were created to handle the threats that they never could. Vision's logic does have some merit but in the end, you are taking away individual human agency and placing responsibility on others...government or superhero. Tony Stark or Doctor Strange using their abilities takes away personal responsibility. You can take the claim that they had a responsibility to make lives better and scale it way down to yourself. How many lives are YOU personally making better with your level of ability and affluence? See how that never works?
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Great video guys - I love these kind of chats / thoughts / ideas, they are like the flip side of the coin or the stuff that goes on outside of frame from the films. With the Hawkeye series I thought we would get a lot of stories about what happened after the blip and the reappearance of people. Do more of this type of piece - very thought provoking 👍
I watched GOTG3 again recently and was reminded that Gamora comes from a timeline that no longer exists. Would love to blame that on the Avengers, but didn't Thanos use Pym Particles to come to the battle at Endgame? Sure, the world was already in process of incurring an incursion, but the TVA says the Avengers were supposed to time travel, but say nothing about Thanos, who was inevitable. Gamora should be dead, Peter even questioned it in GOTG3. Idk what it could mean either that she's alive, other than being a different Gamora all together.
Look at it from the total view of loki at the end of time, from the perspective of a in-universe character, time is linear, but outside of time, any changes have "always been". Whatever happens to the timelines/universes, those inside don't know a difference, everything just is or isn't. So from a total view, that timeline that the new Gamora is from is probably still there, but during endgame it probably got pruned by the tva
once the avengers snapped the nexus-causing beings and returned the infinited stones. Any changes to that timeline were always planned from the beginning, since it was part of He Who Remain's plan. Once loki became the ruler of the timelines that "prunning" was not essential anymore as he's protecting the making of any new branches from now on.
Your arguments were excellent. Might be the first time I agreed with almost everything you said. You had some "Maybe So-And-So Was Right" that totally reached for the moon, but this one was quite good.
The Fantastic Four movie has to be a different reality because they would make the world a better place. They couldn't have been here all along and it not show in the world. I think they are going to be asking the same questions of the Avengers eventually.
90% of marvel heros are reactive not proactive
What do people expect the Avengers to do about making a way of life better? There’s only so much that 6-14 individuals can do on that level
That sounds like that “You need to do better Senator. You need to step up” nonsense
Agreed. I don't know what you want them to do, but it sounds more like trying to blame someone for your own problems.
There are arguments. Here's one, at the end of Iron Man 3 Tony actually fixed extremis, and probably got it to a point that it would have operated in the best manner which would've revolutionized their world. The one the Shield show had was flawed if I remember correctly. I may be missing some things. Pym Particles would have changed earth forever in the positive. Wakanda has the resources to change earth forever. Asgard couldve done amazing things for earth. The Avengers dropped the ball in a lot of ways. That's why they'll never be better than thr X Men. For all their flaws they still try to heal the world for those who are again them an aren't like them an are more relatable than the Avengers. To be super powered beings they're more human than anyone on the Avengers.
There's a lot that 6-14 individuals can do, though. Take Tony for example. In a single action, he could release a patent for the arc reactor into the public domain and solve a ton of problems. The world gets relatively clean energy, for virtually free costs. This would have far reaching ramifications. Water and food shortages could largely be solved by this because now we can power desalinization plants and just physically pump the water to places that need it. Sure, the plants and pipelines cost money, but now that energy is basically free, that frees up the monetary resources to do this. Climate change to a large degree is also solved. Arguably the biggest driver of inflation lately and certainly THE biggest factor in market volatility goes poof. Now yeah, other countries and militaries would also weaponize it similar to how Tony himself weaponized the technology. Not every change and ramification is a good one. However, if you ask the 4/8 billion people on the planet if those risks are worth the other rewards, it would be a resounding yes. Is Tony building and installing every single reactor in every single city? No. There'd be millions of people involved. But it all starts with the actions of just one person. Imagine how many work injuries could be solved with anti-gravity tools? In general, go watch most Marvel movies and essentially the message largely boils down to protecting the status quo is good, disrupting the status quo is bad.
This all again leads to one character that is like equal parts the best and worst. Doctor Doom, who will do things to do what he sees as bettering the world, or at least his country. But he is also a dictator and bad in other areas.
So Zemo and vulture team up and start a popular class war- like in the falcon and winter soldier show. Problem is should hero’s fight the people they are supposed to defend for class status?? Deep concept and brings the story back to a relatable earth.
An MCU show with the villains as the protagonists with one of the avengers as the antagonist could be really cool. In the bigger picture the avengers side of the battle is still in the right but we get to see it from the villains pov. That would be dope
@@ThatGuyGloomy I wish Vulture was in Thunderbolts, fuck Sony, and fuck Avi Arad and fuck Amy Pascal for screwing over Vulture. Pascal and Arad arent even real adults.
I hope that we get a Norman Osborn’s Iron Patriot from the dark avengers
One thing that you're forgetting, Oscorp doesn't exist in the 616 universe.
I think Kingpin will become president and form the Dark Avengers
Is this why Peter Parker refused the new Spider-Man out at the end of Homecoming at the new Avenger’s facility? Let’s not get too big too soon is the thought…
You know…. Despite all their power no matter how much they save the world or the universe you would think with all the resources they would have done something to improve society down to earth but instead… the heroes have became ignorant to pass the time with something thats more important than a street criminal
Thanks for the breakdown Ryan
most villains are right
Punisher and Deadpool better join the thunderbolts
Always a good video when Ryan doesn’t make a “your mom” bait and switch joke.
I think we're missing just how bad the situation was for Earth.
Without Cap, Hydra would have won WW2. Bye bye America.
Without the Avengers, the aliens would have conquered Earth and Thanos would still get all the Infinity Stones but no one would be around to reverse it.
Compared to that, I think what the Vultures of the world got wasn't so bad after all.
Yep. It's not the job of the Avengers to improve the world, they protect it.
The reason the vultures keep crying about injustice is bcz they are small short sighted lepers.
That's why Thanos tells Tony they both are cursed with knowledge.
I see why off World stores are more appealing. Imagine having to explain the economy in the films of Heroes
Maybe with the Avengers they’ll create a branch that specifically deals with crime
Okay yeah Toomes is right that he doesn't have a fair shot. That's just life. Like, real life.
But his contempt, and the point of this video, is misplaced. It's not the Avengers' job to mitigate economic inequality. Like you said, they're not the government. Not their monkeys, not their circus.
THANKS for this, Doug and Ryan!!!! I hope the MCU honchos are watching and thinking and planning and....
Imagine if all of the writers were on the same page and were able to tell a collective narrative between each movie to build a cohesive universe. Maybe we’ll get that post Secret Wars.
I’m waiting on a joke about a team up… don’t disappoint me guys.
What a great video. So much truth and the MCU has changed so much. We need to get back to our roots baby!
This video is exactly why i love this channel!
I can’t wait to see what is next for the MCU.
Here's something people don't talk about: the Young Avengers might actually be the Champions...the Avengers failure to improve the quality of life on earth that Ryan describes is an issue in the comics as well, and that's why Ms Marvel breaks off from the Avengers and forms the champions. She is also forming the team in the MCU, but it consists of young Avengers members. So it might be like a combination of the two teams.
Crazy because DCs The Justice League did exactly what you mentioned in reference to sub divisions within the organization
if Reed Richards were in the MCU they wouldn't have these problems 😂
I mean if you need even more evidence that Vulture was right about rich people (Aka Tony) look to the ending (and I KNOW most of this was for plot and or filming conveniences, I'm just saying how it speaks to the character in the context of the story) Tony is AWARE someone is stealing his tech and using it to make weapons to distribute to criminals in a major metropolitan city, this has happened multiple times and he can't even be BOTHERED to have ANYONE or ANYTHING substantial guard his shipment of tech, a good portion of it is created by HIM! To the point a kid has basically step in and do what TONY SHOULD BE DOING, and in the end the guy can't even say a thank you, just tries to placate Peter with a new suit?
This would be a great theme to touch in those future fantastic four movies! The avengers are an elite strike force, what Ultron said to captain america is actually valid to all of them: They could not live without a war. The avengers don’t go out doing research and discovering cures for diseases and etc. Maybe Bruce and Tony, but that wasn’t the focus of their work. Reed and the FF could fill this place and be a team that worries about the future of the world and the people living in it
This reminds of the comics crossover between the Avengers and the Justice League, where the JLA is surprised that the Avengers haven't improved their earth.
I'm already pumped for the Doom was right video in five years
Btw, this also calls back to Avengers Vs X-Men where Cyclops called out Captain America because The Avengers have never done anything to help Mutants and their suffering.
This is one of the many great things about the X-Men, they've gone on missions to save just one person before. They don't ignore the little guy because as rich as Xavier is, he sees all mutants and humans as important.
I think this is also why people tend to connect more with a street level hero like Daredevil then more god like heroes like Thor.
Excellent video
The series Avengers World that spun out of the Hickman run on Avengers/New Avengers kind of did exactly what you spoke about.
Great video!
You do get a ground level view of the devastation in Endgame
This is why we need S.H.I.E.L.D. Back
Nothing was beneath them
They just had the weight of the world against them
Everyone was hunting them, and the threats kept getting bigger, and bigger
They were finally reestablished in the wake of the Secovia Accords, and the break up of the Avengers
Only for Coulsons group to . . . Ahhhh. . . . Warp out of our MCU, and into a few other timelines/universe’s???
But
We need Shield Back
They kept the world safe, nothing was beneath them, and they ultimately saved the world more than the Avenger’s ever did
Someone is pissed.
Interesting. The difference between protecting the world and making it a better place.
This is a good point about superhero fights. How many people died in Johannesburg when the Avengers captured the Hulk in Age of Ultron? My estimation is at least hundreds if not thousands.
I always thought that if the Vulture had gone to the media or contacted Tony in some way, explaining that he is ruined because of the formation of Damage Control, that Tony would have helped him out. Instead, he just instantly became a super villain.
i actually felt sorry for him getting railroaded like that as a working man
I’ve never understood why the Falcon (in the Falcon and Winter Soldier series) needed a bank loan. Why didn’t billionaire Tony Stark throw everyone on the Avengers team a few million a year? Or why wouldn’t the governments give them money as consultants? They were certainly cheaper than what space ships and weapons would cost.
That was a stupid plotline banks would be after him so they can say that an Avenger uses their bank.
@@godking That’s true. I didn’t even think of that.
@@TheGreenTulips or the fact his alter ego is on lunch boxes and a million other bits of merch in this universe.. the dude would be rolling in cash just from the licencing fee's to use his likeness on all those products
@@johntowers1213 You’re right. I just get so caught up in the universe and “suspend my disbelief.” Then, after I watch it it’s like….hey wait a minute! That doesn’t sound right!
@@TheGreenTulipsMight i remind you Sam was on the run for two years and was blipped for 5 years that take out a lot money from ya and remember discrimination still exist
You know what... You're so right, what I want to see at the movie theater is Tony Stark, hulk, Thor, black widow, ect come together to solve logistical problems. Like setting up, food banks, and finding housing for 4 billion people. That sounds fantastic and riveting to watch a real nail bitter. If only I could see hulk go to work as a city planner my life would be complete..
This video could have been the through line of the Multiverse saga ending the first era chapter. Than our reward as an audience should have been Avengers: The Secret Wars Saga ( present).
That way Secret Invasion could have time to truly breathe and have a proper ending that would have deserved the reaction of the world governments to respond with the current Captain America question.
Captain America: World 🌎 governments do better
World Governments: okay 👌 we will respond with Dark Avengers/ The Red Hulk/ Thunderbolts/etc
This was a real well thought exploration of what happens when governments/ The Avengers over extend themselves instead of working in cooperation and synchronized forces.
The result of the fallout of damaging the public in real time in world conflicts and disruptions of civilization discourse.
Bringing that great powers not only comes with great responsibility.
But used wrongly/ abused/ with apathy comes with great consequences giving the grounded Avengers stake and claim that keeps them grounded.
Because the issues that happen on Earth/ happen in different planets 🪐 or universes or timelines.
It’s the struggle the Avengers constantly face to keep an agreement of everything simply trying to exist coherently and cohesively together while Mis- intentioned characters will always want to be disrupters to get power and control.
Deal with characters who will always feel the existence of others threaten their very existence.
To be fair in Antman and Wasp Quantumania it's revealed that Hope VanDyne is using her company and intelligence to aid in reforestation, affordable housing, and food production. Also Tony in Captain America Civil War was finding college students' research projects. So I wouldn't say they weren't doing anything on the community scale.
Well, in the first avengers Nick Fury was working on weaponizing alien tech and used it to revive Coulson; He also created (with help of the scrulls) the harvest. Not the grearest of plots but as usual is always ahead of the curve. Fury sees the bigger picture and if he wanted could get the avengers to do better.