It's about time someone makes a video explaining the mistake of replacing their DC generator with an AC one. I've been stating this for decades! The armature winding is continuous, and each commutator segment is a tap on that same winding. Therefore it is only necessary to test the resistance of the insulation between any one segment and the shaft. The exception would be if you happened to have a segment that had become disconnected from the winding.
Great video, this was part of my day job for several years. We turned commutators for generators and starters, but also wound rotor AC and DC motors up to about 600 hp. One crucial point on undercutting commutators. The choice to do or don't undercut comes down to insulator material. If the material is black, it's Bakelite, those you don't undercut because it is softer than the Copper and wears at the same rate. If it is Tan it's either Mica or fiber resin, then you do undercut, because the material is harder than the Copper. On those types, the material being harder than the Copper, it will stand proud of the surface as the Copper wears causing Brush bounce. Bounce causes premature wear due to arcing eroding the surface.
@steamfan7147 for years I never knew why in the sixties we under cut dynamo armatures but not starter motors.., A 60 year mystery solved Must have been the insulation material.
I spent a lot of money on college in my early 20s. The way you explain some things on your channel puts some of the instructors to shame. Consistently well explained, detailed, and entertaining.
Armature reconditioning is my jam, A&P mechanic here and this is few and far between common knowledge for aviation. Those of us that work on older prop planes still know how to do this most commercial mechanics were trained on it but forgot how to do it. Great video! Keep em comming.
Good to know I've been reconditioning my starter/generators the correct way this whole time not knowing what to do 😅 also just had a growler given to me this passed fall, old mechanic was going to scap it till he remembered I mess around with older equipment.
Great informative video. I grew up watching my grandfather rebuild motors and tvs. He didn't have a fancy lathe but he did have a drill press and a steady hand and sharp eyes and a trusty file set. He reconditioned many comutators in his old shop this way. Your video brought back many of those memories from back in the late 70s and early 80s of him doing that. Thanks!
Squatch, I just got one of those youtube survey form things on this posting. it appeared in my recommended watching list it was in blue. I gave it a 5 star and ticked all the positive boxes. have a great day. From Jakob over in Plumstead, (SE18) SE London in the UK....
I like your "cold start" to you videos. The growler is new to me. I'm 70 years old. Retired truck driver, love old machinery, tractors and common sense. I've followed you for years. glad your eye sight has improved. looking forward to 2024 on Squatch253.
My grandfather used to sell and repair Electrolux vacuum cleaners. Although he would test armatures, he never went into this great of detail. Once the armature checked good and it was reinstalled in the motor, he would use an armature stone to clean the commutator and help seat the new brushes. Thanks for the how-to video!
Telling my age a little here, but I took shop class in high school and they had one of those machines, I don't think it was this specific brand, but it did the same jobs. The instructor tried to understand how it was supposed to work, but couldn't. I got my uncle that was a machinist for Lockheed to come over and teach the teacher, lol. Those days are gone in the automotive field, now. I used to reline brake shoes and true those up, too. A lost art anymore.
Finally a younger guy to show how to clean test and rebuild the ol stand by starters and generators and 100%correct if starters starting engines are maintained right you'll always get the Diesel going thirty-two thirty-two below to push snow for a road in Maine we're trucks couldn't move the drifting packs try that with electric start ronrdzl
98 days til LeSueur. Seriously I have had a company in New Ulm redo generators, starters, and magneto reasonable. Something about going into a old brick building with their weathered logo painted on brick makes me want to do business with them. Thank you.
Thank you for that education, Toby. I suffered an electrocution in high school, and ever since, if I can't plug it into the wall, I don't mess with it. I ALWAYS sent the parts out for repair due to that shock. That being said, now I have minimal fear of what needs to be done to resurrect these beauties. Thank you for changing my thought process. I'd much rather invest in the appropriate tooling and do it myself than pay someone else to do it for me. I still won't use a chainsaw for any reason. Dad and I watched a guy nearly kill himself with one and that was enough for me. He tried nosing into a log from below when the saw kicked. He was able to "catch" it and pull it away from his body before he sliced through his collar bone and shoulder. However, on the way forward he took his ear off. That still gives me flashbacks, and a reason to pay the professionals to do that work. Call me a chicken and you'll hear me start clucking. I have no issue with that... LOL!
Im kind of the same way with electricity, I worked on 12 volt systems for 20 years at the Ford dealer and know that they pose no actual danger to a person whatsoever - but my personal rule is that anything bigger than that gets left to a professional. I don’t touch any actual electrical service to homes or buildings, because of my limited knowledge of higher rated electrical systems it’s just not worth it 👍
@squatch253 I took a full 120v in building trades at my trade schools apartment building. 6 apartments with 1 service required jumpers from apartment to apartment. I locked out and tagged out as instructed, but someone else decided they needed power worse than my safety. That person got something I've never seen before. The 5'9" instructor had the 6'2" kid at arm length by the throat with one hand. I didn't know toes could stretch towards the ground like they did that day. LOL! Now, locking out a service requires that physical breaker in my pocket! Crazy what life experiences do to you.
very thankful you are going over the starter and generator in such great detail. i always send my starters and generators out for my old two cylinder tractors for rebuilds. I will definitely be tackling this myself for now on. Thank you again!
We had a man in our neighborhood that rebuilt starters, generators, and alternators. If he was suspicious of an armature, he would test it with 110 AC with a light bulb. He said that he started doing that when he had a starter that everything tested good with the meters but wouldn't work when he put it together. It had bad spots in the insulation that would arc when it was under load. He showed it to me when I brought him a starter that would run on the bench test but couldn't turn the engine over.
As an early teen I remember a growler in my uncle's garage (he maintained the local county school busses). I knew it was for testing armatures but never saw it in use. This was interesting. I assisted my father dressing commutators (turning them with a 1/2" drill motor) and under cutting the segments with a broken hack saw blade. Thanks again for your in depth explanation and demonstration!
Great video, but a tip when cutting old mica, wear a mask to prevent inhalation of the dust particles (it can be nasty stuff for the lungs). If you have a shop vac, consider using it to remove the dust completely from the workplace. Newer motors, starters / generators use synthetic mica or resins that does not have the same risks.
You are correct as usual in your assessment of a generator, but if you get into high amperage loads at low engine rpm’s, that is where a alternator wins hands down. A tractor with a couple lights, a generator is fine. It’s like everything else in our modern world, generators are old technology that most people don’t understand, therefore they can’t be good! Tell Senior his projects look good!
Hi Toby! There is no need to "cobble" the hood of a H or M to use an alternator.Remove the four bolts holding the two halves of the alternator together then rotate one the halves 90 degrees.replace bolts. wall law! It's probably best to aim the connector up.
Great to see this reconditioning process still being done. I have great memories from 1972 when I started my mechanical apprenticeship and the vehicles never left the building, we covered everything in house. None of this modern sending things out to be repaired.
Thanks for sharing this part of the clean up. I was one of those that asked for a demo. Your hard work is always appreciated (that includes making the video).
Hi, nice video! a little tip for people who use a metal lathe to true the commutator, do not use a 3-jaw chuck, use a 4 jaw with a dial indicator or collet. the 3 jaw does not run accurate enough, you will make it worse than it was. also if the commutator has a smooth chocolate finish it is in very good condition, leave it alone. Good luck Rich
This is a wonderful teaching video and reminds me of the technical movies I watched in electronics training school at Chanute AFB in Rantoul, Ill. 50 years ago. Sir, you have a teacher's heart and skill. Thank you!
One suggestion is to use the sharp tip of the probe. There can be a bit of surface resistance due to coating on said surfaces (from non visible corrosion to atmospheric and local environmental crud). Love the Fluke, those are great meters.
Wow , great video. I worked In the F&E shop on Ft. Hood Tx rebuild facility many yrs ago. Performing exactly the same as you did. We rebuilt small generator and starters up to the largest tank and hvy equipment varieties. It was a very interesting time. Thanks for letting me relive the memories.
This brings back memories. I was an apprentice auto electrician in the very early '70's and basically spent my life refurbishing Lucas C40 generators. I must have done hundreds as well as Lucas starter motors.. My lathe back then was more primitive than yours though. I also did field wiring and re taping but never tore down an armature, I joined the Army before I got that advanced. Thanks for the vid.
I was a student in Ag mechanics at a vocational center in high school in 1976-7 I must say I have learned more watching your channel than those 2 years. You would be a great instructor at an Ag shop!! Thank you !!
Hey Squatch, I have a '48 H that I put a alternator on I did not have to ruin my hood, or adjust the brackets very much, I also don't have access to a shop to do anything in, so it is no sin to do what I did,and besides you have to do what you have to do to improve things the way you can. Dave D.
I understand the plight. I have a '70 Nova with 3-speed manual column shift. Although the engine isn't original, I'd like to keep the column shift aspect of the car for historic purposes. Only thing, even though the linkage at the base of the column is still in great shape, I'm noticing alot of slack in the column portion of the mechanism. I've looked through some of the classic car replacement parts sites and have yet to see any of these parts as most people are converting to floor shift or automatic transmissions.
Same thing with old cars - switching to an alternator usually isn't required. A generator is simple to recondition/rebuild, and it will work just fine. I've found in most cases that replacing the brushes and bushings along with a general cleanup is going to be all that's really needed.
Beauty. As an aviation mechanic, I worked in a shop that had a certified repair station to rebuild starters, generators, magnetos etc. we did the same things, there is not much difference in the tractor accessories and the aviation accessories. I used to joke: “if it looks the same, it is the same”. But not around the Feds who usually had a sour disposition . Small things like leads on brushes is about it. We didn’t have a dedicated armature lathe and used a regular lathe. There were less problems with generators vs alternators and generators outlast alternators in that environment.
thanks for sharing with us. There are practical reasons to goto 12v alternators, but in general I agree the original 6v parts are the way to go, especially on a C or H Farmall. Now if you have a 60s or 70s Ford with a Lucas generator, that's a different story 😂. My H had original wiring in dangerous condition, yet was the only generator equipped tractor on the farm that reliably charged, they are designed *that* reliable. Neat to see the electrical maintenance tools, no electrical shop is as clean and well lit as your shop ;).
most problems people have encountered with 6v begins with maintenance (lack of) and being cheap. For example, the battery cables hanging up in a parts store or retail setting are cheap, even for your Honda beater. but those are the ones that sell en masse and people buy for all their repairs. Nothing ruins electrical more than operating at low voltage, high load from dirty connections and under-rated conductors. Parts availability is not an issue with delco, deere, farmall--yet, though we will see it sooner than later now. There are obscure situations where a conversion makes sense (make that one year only 30s car driveable). I am a fan of well-done and thought out conversions, but the hack a hood is just wrong.
I agree, and the majority of really poor alternator conversions I’ve personally seen have been on already neglected tractors that had owners who were just concerned with getting a little bit more life out of them, with minimal effort or expense invested.
@@squatch253 and sometimes that's ok. But they shouldn't claim "restored" when there's a gaping torch-cut hole in the hood. I saw one with a beautifully crafted bump out welded to the hood, much respect to that effort.
A diamond tipped tool bit makes the absolute nicest cuts on copper, copper, being soft and wanting to tear and be gummy. It is hard to get a really good finish, with a diamond tip tool bit the cuts are just effortless on copper, my father used to use a particular sandpaper on armature, he said the wrong sandpaper would embed itself in the surface, and then in your brushes, but I cannot remember which one it is
Oh, that's the cutest little armature lathe ever. I didn't even know they made them that small. The armature shop i go to has one that's for big armatures but can be used on small ones too, i have to show him this video. :))
Why am I ALWAYS amazed at once again being amazed? What a wonderful video, even though I'll never do any of this stuff.....but still find it so entertaining as I do ALL your videos. Many Thanks!!!
Thanks for going into great detail, this is going to help tremendously when I get started on my great grandfathers 9n. Looking forward to the next couple of episodes.
Yes a few others have pointed out that mistake too, my eyesight still isn’t what it used to be since the detached retina, and I still sometimes get words wrong if I’m in too much of a hurry.
Beautiful coverage of a generator and starter service. The only thing you missed was that, when using a hacksaw to undercut a comm, to grind the offset out of the hacksaw teeth so the undercut was not too wide. I have used two of those commutator lathes. One that I own is very small for machining small RC racing car motors only just shy of 2 inches long or the one at my old work which can cut up to an 8 foot diameter commutator. I always found it kinda funny that I was doing the same job repairing motors and generators at work and also while racing RC cars with my sons. We also used a tire lathe with the RC cars that also looked similar but without the undercutter, I would love to find a machine like you have. I'll just keep hitting the shows and one will turn up sooner or later.👍😎🙋♂
I have a Craftsman 101 lathe (an Atlas 618 made for Sears) I occasionally see under cutter attachments for about $300.00, but never knew exactly what they were for. Thanks for the demonstration!
Fantastic video Toby. Those lathes are great. I have eight 8N tractors all restored and all with the original 6 volt system. They are work great and with everything tuned up and adjusted properly they all start and work fine with the 6volt system, even it the middle of winter in upstate New York.
I work on large DC motors from time to time, the only addition to your comm machining that I do is to V the edges lightly on each groove where you cut the mica from, them polish the comm, this gives the motor longer life, other techs also bed the brushes in which is necessary with high voltages and currents to minimize heat spots. We also use 500v as a earth test.
Toby when I graduated from Dunwoody in 1970 I used those exact growler on lathe to overhaul starters and generators but they also taught us all about magnetos, centerplane brakes, wedge brakes some very old stuff because you may have to repair some very old vehicles and equipment or equipment that you had never seen before mechanical fuel injection but you could figure it out
Toby, I still have my Sun model 75 Armature tester. But for machining commutators I have set up for my metal lathes. I got rid of all but one of my dedicated armature lathes years ago. I still have my Harley Davidson shop equipment armature lathe.
I have an old growler that has a continuty tester built in to it . Theres a 20 watt bulb screwed in just like a lamp socket. 2 leads screw on to the front . It works good .
Excellent video it's nice to have the right tools for the job It makes it a lot easier. Keep up the great videos. Do you have a starter load tester the one shop I used to get starter parts from had the machine to put the starter under a torque load I wish I would have been a little older I knew the guy was about to retire I would have bought his tools but that didn't work out. There must have been a school that them guys went to after ww2 because there was a electric motor repair shop in about every town and all the guys were gray haired back in the 1980s .
Memory lane! To graduate from motorcycle mechanics school back in 1977, I was trained on and had to demonstrate proficiency using a growler & armature re-conditioner. Anyone recall the old Quik Way vertical boring bars?
OK. I'm offended. Lol. In all seriousness, I started by cobbling but finished by using a product designed to fit. Lol. With that said, this is the BEST rebuild video for starters and generators that is out there, hands down! Nice work, and thank you!!
My late Father a machinist, would undercut generators by chucking in a lathe, truing the armature, then undercutting the Mica using a lathe tool ground down to the width of the Mica. Would undercut by traversing the commutor with the compound with the lathe powered Off.
i have an old under cutter only that my father saved from the scrap pile at the machine shop he worked at years ago. dads gone now but i still have the under cutter and will keep it till i can pass on to someone who will keep it too
Just a bit of information. The O.L on a fluke multimeter means "Overload" It harkens back to the first digital multimeters. (50s and 60s era) Way back then, it could damage a multimeter if it was left on the resistance function with nothing connected. Of course now it's not the case with modern multimeters but the following generations of multimeters carried on displaying the O.L when the leads are open. Just a little history for ya. Dave in TX.
The one thing I've noticed a lot is people don't even try to replace the regulator when it goes bad, they just go straight to hacking the hood, tearing up the harness, and cobbling brackets to shoehorn an alternator in the generators place, despite it being more work in the long run. It's like small engine starters for old Kohlers, both starter generators and the gear starters. I have never bought a new starter for any of my old Kohlers, ever. I've had plenty of non-functioning ones, and all of them were fixed just by cleaning them up and freeing up the brushes. If I never watched your videos I bet half my tractors would have junk Chinese starters on them!
You don't HAVE to hack the hood, but that doesn't mean that farmers don't do it. Seen plenty of tractors with notched grilles or hoods for aftermarket parts that could've easily fit had some thought been put in to mounting them.
Before reaching for lectra clean, I like to try crc's contact cleaner. It behaves as a rinse agent [no water] and I have yet to see it damage any finish. It first found a place in my shop as a quick way of backflushing sintered metal filters to see if they could be re-used.
For a commutator that's not to bad of shape, I've spun them in a drill press, while running a file against them before. Gets you by when you're just trying to keep some old junk running.
Yep both informative and entertaining and thank you. I have a different work style than you on my old tractors mine is to make them functional and dependable but I don't care too much about their original looks. I try to make them restored to a condition where they are TurnKey dependable and ready to do some dirt work or snow work
That brought back memories. My first car in the early 1970's had a generator that eventually started to fail. My neighbour was into rebuilding starters and generators so he did mine while I watched. He did all those tests including the growler. He cut the commutator on a regular lathe but he cut the mica groves first by hand. The issue with my dynamo/generator was worn brushes. Once serviced it never gave any problems so I don't think they are less reliable than an alternator but I don't think (size for size) they can deliver the power of an alternator.
Another way to test magnetism with a hacksaw blade is just to hold the hackle blade onto the armature. The hacksaw blades vibrates badly you have a short and if they don’t really move you don’t
you know....videos like this, easy access to ebay, and my complete lack of self control prove that you're a terrible influence. i now have a Frank N. Wood Co. model B10 on the way.
20:07 Those things can get pretty damn small! I'd almost suggest collecting an RC motor lathe just for the sake of having a really smol one, the one you just used, and the long bed being restored. RC sized ones are meant for turning armatures in 540-sized brushed motors! Tiny little things. Rather obsolete nowadays...electric RC cars have long since moved away from brushed motors for the most part and the ones still in use are considered disposable so few people in the hobby still use them...but a neat little curio for sure. Regarding the 'alt > gen' and 'Direct elec start > pony start' crowd....I'm right there with you. And hell, I'll extend it beyond that, too. EFI on older engines is just bleh. They don't need it. They run fine on carb. But a lot of guys these days are just dead set on throwing a holley sniper on everything, and it's all down to the same base reason: Skill issue. They simply can't be bothered to learn how to repair a carb and have only ever tried to run a carb engine that needed carb work. Predictably, it ran like shit, they got fed up, and lazy'd out with a holley sniper kit.
Thank you for the video I really enjoyed it. I have a Trucut 810 and would anyone know where to find the saw blade for the undercutter? I am not having any luck finding one.
If you are going to cut the mica with a hacksaw blade I have found it does a cleaner job if you geind most of the set off of both sides of the teeth. It also keeps the sides of the hacksaw teeth from cutting into the copper parts of the commentator.
20:26 There is only two commutator bars the will have full omh that is one set of windings you may have as many as 10 sets of windings in which is a rap of copper wire wond up with so many raps 20 or maybe 40 raps that is layered in the grid bar stack one end of. Winding is put on a certain commutator bar the other to one another , these starter and gens are very easy to rewind easier then electric motors
It's about time someone makes a video explaining the mistake of replacing their DC generator with an AC one. I've been stating this for decades!
The armature winding is continuous, and each commutator segment is a tap on that same winding. Therefore it is only necessary to test the resistance of the insulation between any one segment and the shaft. The exception would be if you happened to have a segment that had become disconnected from the winding.
Great video, this was part of my day job for several years. We turned commutators for generators and starters, but also wound rotor AC and DC motors up to about 600 hp. One crucial point on undercutting commutators. The choice to do or don't undercut comes down to insulator material. If the material is black, it's Bakelite, those you don't undercut because it is softer than the Copper and wears at the same rate. If it is Tan it's either Mica or fiber resin, then you do undercut, because the material is harder than the Copper. On those types, the material being harder than the Copper, it will stand proud of the surface as the Copper wears causing Brush bounce. Bounce causes premature wear due to arcing eroding the surface.
@steamfan7147 for years I never knew why in the sixties we under cut dynamo armatures but not starter motors.., A 60 year mystery solved Must have been the insulation material.
I spent a lot of money on college in my early 20s. The way you explain some things on your channel puts some of the instructors to shame. Consistently well explained, detailed, and entertaining.
Armature reconditioning is my jam, A&P mechanic here and this is few and far between common knowledge for aviation. Those of us that work on older prop planes still know how to do this most commercial mechanics were trained on it but forgot how to do it. Great video! Keep em comming.
You explained the growler better than my auto tech instructer ever did. thanks
I love that you are an advocate for original generators. I have a '57 Plymouth running a generator and it's been fine.
Not a thing wrong with them!
Quite possibly the world's most beautiful armature lathe.
I'm so jealous I went and looked for one on ebay bit there wore out and expensive.
Good to know I've been reconditioning my starter/generators the correct way this whole time not knowing what to do 😅 also just had a growler given to me this passed fall, old mechanic was going to scap it till he remembered I mess around with older equipment.
I love the old tools almost as much as the content itself! Keep up the good work!
Squatch. I was totally glued to the screen on this one. any closer and I would have been in the shop right behind you. Thank You !
Great informative video. I grew up watching my grandfather rebuild motors and tvs. He didn't have a fancy lathe but he did have a drill press and a steady hand and sharp eyes and a trusty file set. He reconditioned many comutators in his old shop this way. Your video brought back many of those memories from back in the late 70s and early 80s of him doing that. Thanks!
Squatch, I just got one of those youtube survey form things on this posting. it appeared in my recommended watching list it was in blue. I gave it a 5 star and ticked all the positive boxes. have a great day. From Jakob over in Plumstead, (SE18) SE London in the UK....
Those two tools took me right back to my Auto Shop classes in the early 70's!!
Defiantly learned somethings that I was not aware of with the reconditioning of the armature. Good to know information. Thanks for sharing.
I like your "cold start" to you videos. The growler is new to me. I'm 70 years old. Retired truck driver, love old machinery, tractors and common sense. I've followed you for years. glad your eye sight has improved. looking forward to 2024 on Squatch253.
My grandfather used to sell and repair Electrolux vacuum cleaners. Although he would test armatures, he never went into this great of detail. Once the armature checked good and it was reinstalled in the motor, he would use an armature stone to clean the commutator and help seat the new brushes. Thanks for the how-to video!
Great video! That's the first time ever seeing an armature lathe in action! Definitely learned something new. Thanks for sharing!
Telling my age a little here, but I took shop class in high school and they had one of those machines, I don't think it was this specific brand, but it did the same jobs. The instructor tried to understand how it was supposed to work, but couldn't. I got my uncle that was a machinist for Lockheed to come over and teach the teacher, lol. Those days are gone in the automotive field, now. I used to reline brake shoes and true those up, too. A lost art anymore.
The mystery and skullduggery deep within the bowels of the old fashioned local starter-generator shop revealed !!!
Finally a younger guy to show how to clean test and rebuild the ol stand by starters and generators and 100%correct if starters starting engines are maintained right you'll always get the Diesel going thirty-two thirty-two below to push snow for a road in Maine we're trucks couldn't move the drifting packs try that with electric start ronrdzl
98 days til LeSueur. Seriously I have had a company in New Ulm redo generators, starters, and magneto reasonable.
Something about going into a old brick building with their weathered logo painted on brick makes me want to do business with them.
Thank you.
Thank you for that education, Toby. I suffered an electrocution in high school, and ever since, if I can't plug it into the wall, I don't mess with it. I ALWAYS sent the parts out for repair due to that shock.
That being said, now I have minimal fear of what needs to be done to resurrect these beauties. Thank you for changing my thought process. I'd much rather invest in the appropriate tooling and do it myself than pay someone else to do it for me.
I still won't use a chainsaw for any reason. Dad and I watched a guy nearly kill himself with one and that was enough for me. He tried nosing into a log from below when the saw kicked. He was able to "catch" it and pull it away from his body before he sliced through his collar bone and shoulder. However, on the way forward he took his ear off. That still gives me flashbacks, and a reason to pay the professionals to do that work. Call me a chicken and you'll hear me start clucking. I have no issue with that... LOL!
Im kind of the same way with electricity, I worked on 12 volt systems for 20 years at the Ford dealer and know that they pose no actual danger to a person whatsoever - but my personal rule is that anything bigger than that gets left to a professional. I don’t touch any actual electrical service to homes or buildings, because of my limited knowledge of higher rated electrical systems it’s just not worth it 👍
@squatch253 I took a full 120v in building trades at my trade schools apartment building. 6 apartments with 1 service required jumpers from apartment to apartment. I locked out and tagged out as instructed, but someone else decided they needed power worse than my safety. That person got something I've never seen before. The 5'9" instructor had the 6'2" kid at arm length by the throat with one hand. I didn't know toes could stretch towards the ground like they did that day. LOL! Now, locking out a service requires that physical breaker in my pocket! Crazy what life experiences do to you.
I could watch this for hours
Senior did a wonderful job on the lathes. Great video, looking forward to the next one!
very thankful you are going over the starter and generator in such great detail. i always send my starters and generators out for my old two cylinder tractors for rebuilds. I will definitely be tackling this myself for now on. Thank you again!
We had a man in our neighborhood that rebuilt starters, generators, and alternators. If he was suspicious of an armature, he would test it with 110 AC with a light bulb. He said that he started doing that when he had a starter that everything tested good with the meters but wouldn't work when he put it together. It had bad spots in the insulation that would arc when it was under load. He showed it to me when I brought him a starter that would run on the bench test but couldn't turn the engine over.
As an early teen I remember a growler in my uncle's garage (he maintained the local county school busses). I knew it was for testing armatures but never saw it in use. This was interesting. I assisted my father dressing commutators (turning them with a 1/2" drill motor) and under cutting the segments with a broken hack saw blade. Thanks again for your in depth explanation and demonstration!
I have done them with a 1/2” drill too.
Great video, but a tip when cutting old mica, wear a mask to prevent inhalation of the dust particles (it can be nasty stuff for the lungs). If you have a shop vac, consider using it to remove the dust completely from the workplace. Newer motors, starters / generators use synthetic mica or resins that does not have the same risks.
Da purist, keep it OEM. Sweet!!!😊
I enjoyed and learned a lot on this episode
I only read of turning an armature, never seen it anywhere, thx for showing!
👍👍👍
You are correct as usual in your assessment of a generator, but if you get into high amperage loads at low engine rpm’s, that is where a alternator wins hands down. A tractor with a couple lights, a generator is fine. It’s like everything else in our modern world, generators are old technology that most people don’t understand, therefore they can’t be good! Tell Senior his projects look good!
Hi Toby! There is no need to "cobble" the hood of a H or M to use an alternator.Remove the four bolts holding the two halves of the alternator together then rotate one the halves
90 degrees.replace bolts. wall law! It's probably best to aim the connector up.
Great to see this reconditioning process still being done. I have great memories from 1972 when I started my mechanical apprenticeship and the vehicles never left the building, we covered everything in house. None of this modern sending things out to be repaired.
Thanks for sharing this part of the clean up. I was one of those that asked for a demo. Your hard work is always appreciated (that includes making the video).
Thank you so much for sharing this with us 😊
Great show..........Best teacher on UA-cam !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi, nice video! a little tip for people who use a metal lathe to true the commutator, do not use a 3-jaw chuck, use a 4 jaw with a dial indicator or collet. the 3 jaw does not run accurate enough, you will make it worse than it was.
also if the commutator has a smooth chocolate finish it is in very good condition, leave it alone.
Good luck Rich
Great advice. Even if the comm is a little mottled it is still good.
This is a wonderful teaching video and reminds me of the technical movies I watched in electronics training school at Chanute AFB in Rantoul, Ill. 50 years ago. Sir, you have a teacher's heart and skill. Thank you!
Such a great video! Thanks for this.
One suggestion is to use the sharp tip of the probe. There can be a bit of surface resistance due to coating on said surfaces (from non visible corrosion to atmospheric and local environmental crud). Love the Fluke, those are great meters.
Wow , great video. I worked In the F&E shop on Ft. Hood Tx rebuild facility many yrs ago. Performing exactly the same as you did. We rebuilt small generator and starters up to the largest tank and hvy equipment varieties. It was a very interesting time. Thanks for letting me relive the memories.
Thank you that is a good information right there you're a good teacher
We had a growler in Junior year high school Auto Repair Class (1971) and did everything you did with Delco units.
This brings back memories. I was an apprentice auto electrician in the very early '70's and basically spent my life refurbishing Lucas C40 generators. I must have done hundreds as well as Lucas starter motors.. My lathe back then was more primitive than yours though. I also did field wiring and re taping but never tore down an armature, I joined the Army before I got that advanced. Thanks for the vid.
Probably my favorite video. Love the armature Lathe and the reconditioning of the generator.
I was a student in Ag mechanics at a vocational center in high school in 1976-7 I must say I have learned more watching your channel than those 2 years. You would be a great instructor at an Ag shop!! Thank you !!
Enjoyed the video ! Thanks
Hey Squatch, I have a '48 H that I put a alternator on I did not have to ruin my hood, or adjust the brackets very much, I also don't have access to a shop to do anything in, so it is no sin to do what I did,and besides you have to do what you have to do to improve things the way you can. Dave D.
Squatch isn’t wrong
I understand the plight. I have a '70 Nova with 3-speed manual column shift. Although the engine isn't original, I'd like to keep the column shift aspect of the car for historic purposes. Only thing, even though the linkage at the base of the column is still in great shape, I'm noticing alot of slack in the column portion of the mechanism. I've looked through some of the classic car replacement parts sites and have yet to see any of these parts as most people are converting to floor shift or automatic transmissions.
Same thing with old cars - switching to an alternator usually isn't required. A generator is simple to recondition/rebuild, and it will work just fine. I've found in most cases that replacing the brushes and bushings along with a general cleanup is going to be all that's really needed.
Beauty. As an aviation mechanic, I worked in a shop that had a certified repair station to rebuild starters, generators, magnetos etc. we did the same things, there is not much difference in the tractor accessories and the aviation accessories. I used to joke: “if it looks the same, it is the same”. But not around the Feds who usually had a sour disposition . Small things like leads on brushes is about it. We didn’t have a dedicated armature lathe and used a regular lathe. There were less problems with generators vs alternators and generators outlast alternators in that environment.
thanks for sharing with us. There are practical reasons to goto 12v alternators, but in general I agree the original 6v parts are the way to go, especially on a C or H Farmall. Now if you have a 60s or 70s Ford with a Lucas generator, that's a different story 😂. My H had original wiring in dangerous condition, yet was the only generator equipped tractor on the farm that reliably charged, they are designed *that* reliable. Neat to see the electrical maintenance tools, no electrical shop is as clean and well lit as your shop ;).
most problems people have encountered with 6v begins with maintenance (lack of) and being cheap. For example, the battery cables hanging up in a parts store or retail setting are cheap, even for your Honda beater. but those are the ones that sell en masse and people buy for all their repairs. Nothing ruins electrical more than operating at low voltage, high load from dirty connections and under-rated conductors. Parts availability is not an issue with delco, deere, farmall--yet, though we will see it sooner than later now. There are obscure situations where a conversion makes sense (make that one year only 30s car driveable). I am a fan of well-done and thought out conversions, but the hack a hood is just wrong.
I agree, and the majority of really poor alternator conversions I’ve personally seen have been on already neglected tractors that had owners who were just concerned with getting a little bit more life out of them, with minimal effort or expense invested.
@@squatch253 and sometimes that's ok. But they shouldn't claim "restored" when there's a gaping torch-cut hole in the hood. I saw one with a beautifully crafted bump out welded to the hood, much respect to that effort.
A diamond tipped tool bit makes the absolute nicest cuts on copper, copper, being soft and wanting to tear and be gummy. It is hard to get a really good finish, with a diamond tip tool bit the cuts are just effortless on copper, my father used to use a particular sandpaper on armature, he said the wrong sandpaper would embed itself in the surface, and then in your brushes, but I cannot remember which one it is
My Delco-Remy manuals here discuss a “00” sandpaper/emery cloth to polish commutators and burnish in new brushes 👍
Oh, that's the cutest little armature lathe ever. I didn't even know they made them that small. The armature shop i go to has one that's for big armatures but can be used on small ones too, i have to show him this video. :))
I do enjoy those older armature lathes nice for you guys to restore and gather them. :)
Why am I ALWAYS amazed at once again being amazed? What a wonderful video, even though I'll never do any of this stuff.....but still find it so entertaining as I do ALL your videos. Many Thanks!!!
Thanks for going into great detail, this is going to help tremendously when I get started on my great grandfathers 9n. Looking forward to the next couple of episodes.
Tru-Cut ( True-cut ) . Love the old tools !
Yes a few others have pointed out that mistake too, my eyesight still isn’t what it used to be since the detached retina, and I still sometimes get words wrong if I’m in too much of a hurry.
Beautiful coverage of a generator and starter service. The only thing you missed was that, when using a hacksaw to undercut a comm, to grind the offset out of the hacksaw teeth so the undercut was not too wide. I have used two of those commutator lathes. One that I own is very small for machining small RC racing car motors only just shy of 2 inches long or the one at my old work which can cut up to an 8 foot diameter commutator. I always found it kinda funny that I was doing the same job repairing motors and generators at work and also while racing RC cars with my sons. We also used a tire lathe with the RC cars that also looked similar but without the undercutter, I would love to find a machine like you have. I'll just keep hitting the shows and one will turn up sooner or later.👍😎🙋♂
I have a Craftsman 101 lathe (an Atlas 618 made for Sears) I occasionally see under cutter attachments for about $300.00, but never knew exactly what they were for. Thanks for the demonstration!
Fantastic video Toby. Those lathes are great. I have eight 8N tractors all restored and all with the original 6 volt system. They are work great and with everything tuned up and adjusted properly they all start and work fine with the 6volt system, even it the middle of winter in upstate New York.
Great instructional video, keep it up
I work on large DC motors from time to time, the only addition to your comm machining that I do is to V the edges lightly on each groove where you cut the mica from, them polish the comm, this gives the motor longer life, other techs also bed the brushes in which is necessary with high voltages and currents to minimize heat spots. We also use 500v as a earth test.
Like you said we don't all have those kind cool tools says Like you said, we don't all have those kind of cool tools. That's really bad ass thank you
Really neat tool.
Toby when I graduated from Dunwoody in 1970 I used those exact growler on lathe to overhaul starters and generators but they also taught us all about magnetos, centerplane brakes, wedge brakes some very old stuff because you may have to repair some very old vehicles and equipment or equipment that you had never seen before mechanical fuel injection but you could figure it out
Toby, I still have my Sun model 75 Armature tester. But for machining commutators I have set up for my metal lathes. I got rid of all but one of my dedicated armature lathes years ago. I still have my Harley Davidson shop equipment armature lathe.
A great channel for anyone to watch.
I have an old growler that has a continuty tester built in to it . Theres a 20 watt bulb screwed in just like a lamp socket. 2 leads screw on to the front . It works good .
Great lesson on how to test and recondition. Thanks for sharing
Excellent video it's nice to have the right tools for the job It makes it a lot easier. Keep up the great videos. Do you have a starter load tester the one shop I used to get starter parts from had the machine to put the starter under a torque load I wish I would have been a little older I knew the guy was about to retire I would have bought his tools but that didn't work out. There must have been a school that them guys went to after ww2 because there was a electric motor repair shop in about every town and all the guys were gray haired back in the 1980s .
Fantastic video Toby! Top notch information. Cheers
Memory lane! To graduate from motorcycle mechanics school back in 1977, I was trained on and had to demonstrate proficiency using a growler & armature re-conditioner. Anyone recall the old Quik Way vertical boring bars?
OK. I'm offended. Lol. In all seriousness, I started by cobbling but finished by using a product designed to fit. Lol. With that said, this is the BEST rebuild video for starters and generators that is out there, hands down! Nice work, and thank you!!
My late Father a machinist, would undercut generators by chucking in a lathe, truing the armature, then undercutting the Mica using a lathe tool ground down to the width of the Mica. Would undercut by traversing the commutor with the compound with the lathe powered Off.
My dad, who was a Ford mechanic in the 20s and 30s, said that 2 pole generators are the best chargers.
Thaa as bad for the video Toby! Always interesting how things work and you explain them at very well. Thanks again and can’t wait for the next video
i have an old under cutter only that my father saved from the scrap pile at the machine shop he worked at years ago. dads gone now but i still have the under cutter and will keep it till i can pass on to someone who will keep it too
Great video! I learned a long time ago to not use brake clean for cleaning starters and generators!
Sounds like a lesson learned the hard way?
It was! haha! The brake clean i used attacked the insulation on the windings.@@colin8532
Fantastically informative episode, Squatch
And your intro made me laugh so much it hurt my ribs
Brilliant work
Just a bit of information. The O.L on a fluke multimeter means "Overload" It harkens back to the first digital multimeters. (50s and 60s era) Way back then, it could damage a multimeter if it was left on the resistance function with nothing connected. Of course now it's not the case with modern multimeters but the following generations of multimeters carried on displaying the O.L when the leads are open. Just a little history for ya. Dave in TX.
Hey Toby,,,very cool video on a forgotten skill. It's Squatched,,now it's better!!
The one thing I've noticed a lot is people don't even try to replace the regulator when it goes bad, they just go straight to hacking the hood, tearing up the harness, and cobbling brackets to shoehorn an alternator in the generators place, despite it being more work in the long run.
It's like small engine starters for old Kohlers, both starter generators and the gear starters. I have never bought a new starter for any of my old Kohlers, ever. I've had plenty of non-functioning ones, and all of them were fixed just by cleaning them up and freeing up the brushes. If I never watched your videos I bet half my tractors would have junk Chinese starters on them!
You don't have to hack the hood up and the odds of the harness already being hacked up on a 70+ year old tractor is pretty high..
You don't HAVE to hack the hood, but that doesn't mean that farmers don't do it. Seen plenty of tractors with notched grilles or hoods for aftermarket parts that could've easily fit had some thought been put in to mounting them.
That was a cool video. Thank You.
Before reaching for lectra clean, I like to try crc's contact cleaner. It behaves as a rinse agent [no water] and I have yet to see it damage any finish. It first found a place in my shop as a quick way of backflushing sintered metal filters to see if they could be re-used.
For a commutator that's not to bad of shape, I've spun them in a drill press, while running a file against them before. Gets you by when you're just trying to keep some old junk running.
Yep both informative and entertaining and thank you.
I have a different work style than you on my old tractors mine is to make them functional and dependable but I don't care too much about their original looks. I try to make them restored to a condition where they are TurnKey dependable and ready to do some dirt work or snow work
That brought back memories. My first car in the early 1970's had a generator that eventually started to fail. My neighbour was into rebuilding starters and generators so he did mine while I watched. He did all those tests including the growler. He cut the commutator on a regular lathe but he cut the mica groves first by hand. The issue with my dynamo/generator was worn brushes. Once serviced it never gave any problems so I don't think they are less reliable than an alternator but I don't think (size for size) they can deliver the power of an alternator.
I learned something today.
Another way to test magnetism with a hacksaw blade is just to hold the hackle blade onto the armature. The hacksaw blades vibrates badly you have a short and if they don’t really move you don’t
you know....videos like this, easy access to ebay, and my complete lack of self control prove that you're a terrible influence. i now have a Frank N. Wood Co. model B10 on the way.
20:07 Those things can get pretty damn small! I'd almost suggest collecting an RC motor lathe just for the sake of having a really smol one, the one you just used, and the long bed being restored.
RC sized ones are meant for turning armatures in 540-sized brushed motors! Tiny little things. Rather obsolete nowadays...electric RC cars have long since moved away from brushed motors for the most part and the ones still in use are considered disposable so few people in the hobby still use them...but a neat little curio for sure.
Regarding the 'alt > gen' and 'Direct elec start > pony start' crowd....I'm right there with you. And hell, I'll extend it beyond that, too. EFI on older engines is just bleh. They don't need it. They run fine on carb. But a lot of guys these days are just dead set on throwing a holley sniper on everything, and it's all down to the same base reason: Skill issue. They simply can't be bothered to learn how to repair a carb and have only ever tried to run a carb engine that needed carb work. Predictably, it ran like shit, they got fed up, and lazy'd out with a holley sniper kit.
I wish you were my personal mechanic for all my engined vehicles Squach ! Hope to talk to you at the swap meet down near Le Sueur, Mn.
Great video! I really enoyed!
Squatch, If you ever get tired of YT, I feel like you would make an excellent shop instructor at a school. Just my honest opinion
Thank you for the video I really enjoyed it. I have a Trucut 810 and would anyone know where to find the saw blade for the undercutter? I am not having any luck finding one.
If you are going to cut the mica with a hacksaw blade I have found it does a cleaner job if you geind most of the set off of both sides of the teeth. It also keeps the sides of the hacksaw teeth from cutting into the copper parts of the commentator.
I have one of those v shaped testers, I'll have to see if it works. 😊
20:26 There is only two commutator bars the will have full omh that is one set of windings you may have as many as 10 sets of windings in which is a rap of copper wire wond up with so many raps 20 or maybe 40 raps that is layered in the grid bar stack one end of. Winding is put on a certain commutator bar the other to one another , these starter and gens are very easy to rewind easier then electric motors
I'm with you generators work just fine an are simple to work on