In the Prog Seat: Album War-After the Line-Up Change...Genesis, Marillion, Kansas, or Renaissance
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Join the In the Prog Seat crew for an album war between 4 bands who had a major line-up change...Genesis, Marillion, Kansas, or Renaissance?
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Steven Rothery's solo on Easter (Season's End) is simply magnificent.
So good it could be removed from the song and stand on it's own as an epic, melodic instrumental.
Putting Nursery Cryme up against those other three is like putting prime Mike Tyson up against competent middle-weights. Its no contest.
1. Kansas, I still listen to Vinyl Confessions often. As a Christian the songs have a lot of meaning to me.
2. Genesis
3. Marillion
4. Renaissance
I am with Chuck in that I actually love all four of the albums selected for this episode, regardless of how they are ranked. The rawness of the production on Genesis' Nursery Cryme has a certain charm to it, even though it was the main thing that prevented my enjoying the album to the fullest for years. When compared to Kansas' first five albums, Vinyl Confessions will be experienced as something of a letdown to many. While I rank many other albums above it, I must admit that I have always loved VC for what it was: a good AOR/'Melodic rock' sort of album. Great melodies, vocals & harmonies, great songs. Kudos to Anthony for speaking favorably of my personal top two tracks from the album: "Chasing Shadows" and "Diamonds and Pearls." Renaissance's Prologue is an album full of beauty. Oddly enough, I agree with Pete; notwithstanding my love for the album, it doesn't rank as one of my utmost faves. I rank the next five albums in the band's catalogue higher. Marillion is the one group of this bunch that I have yet to explore in full. Either way, Seasons End is excellent.
How would I personally rank these four albums? The same way George did:
1. Genesis - Nursery Cryme
2. Renaissance - Prologue
3. Kansas - Vinyl Confessions
4. Marillion - Seasons End
Great episode.
1. Nursery crime
2. Prologue
3. Season's end
4. Vinyl confessions
I remastered all the Kansas demos with Walsh prior to the split, if anyone wants to hear them in decent quality. Start with "Children of the Shadows." All here on UA-cam
The big drawback on any of the band's POWER demos is the glitches in timing. Those stutters of data detract from all those that I have heard so far. Shame because those songs are wonderful. I wish
Very interesting topic here. All of these are strong albums here, but heres how i would rank them:
1. Genesis - Nursery Cryme (not a huge Genesis fan, but easily the best of the 4. I mean, Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacis sell it for me)
2. Kansas - Vinyl Confessions (Idk how John Elefante can hold his own replacing Steve Walsh, but he did a fine job and im a sucker for AOR-Prog kind of stuff)
3. Renaissance - Prologue (I enjoyed this quite a bit, although I do agree some of the songs could've been shorter)
4. Marillion - Seasons End (A fine record, but I feel they're still trying to find their sound with Mr. Hogarth, which would be fully realized with Brave 5 years later)
Genesis - Nursery Cryme is so far ahead of the rest you can't even see the other albums in the rearview mirror! Adding Hackett and Collins is just too iconic, on par with Yes adding Steve and Rick.
Yes, like there were no other options. Yes for example. Many line up changes. Jethro Tull, another one.
@@AlexDizzys ever wonder that perhaps we have other shows planned with this very same topic and didn't want to use them all up on the first episode?
@@seaoftranquilityprog If you say so
Going out on a limb here for Old Man Overalls's picks:
1. Genesis
2. Renaissance
3. Marillion
34. Kensas (for the 34th state)
🤠 🎻
That’s my ranking, too. I’m not too familiar with that Kansas album.
Shocker on the flip flop of one and two I stand corrected. You got Seasons End all wrong though. 😉
This is the most animated I've ever seen Anthony. Between that and Eric not hating on vocalists this episode was like Twilight Zone. I'd like to see more of these. Maybe not as a regular feature, but sprinkled in here and there. Nice job guys.
😀 I surprised myself
I’d go (but Genesis wins easily):
Genesis - Nursery Crime
Marillion - Seasons End
Renaissance - Prologue
Kansas - Vinyl Confessions
Thank you guys!
1. Marillion "Season's End" - Superb album through & through and the album where they went from Genesis/Gabriel copycats to a more creative & eclectic band of their own - one that's lasted over 30 years. Vocally, I've prefered H from listen number one, and always felt Fish was better at lyrics than singing. To me, the Fish albums now just sound derivative, while the H era, from 1989 to the present, are one of prog's true greats, taking chances and evolving with each new album. Also a superior live band.
2. Genesis "Nursery Cryme". Great album, which I first owned on 8 track! However, I think this one already had an excellent predecessor in "Trespass". The line-up change certainly took them up a notch, but they still had better things to come with Hackett & Collins on board. So to me, the change in Marillion was more dramatic than the change from "Trespass" to "Nursery Cryme".
3. Kansas "Vinyl Confessions". I joined the Kansas bandwagon around '78, between "POKR" & "Audio Visiions", going backwards to discover their full discography. I bought "VC" the day of release in 1982. A few of the tracks were surprisingly different upon first listen, while others were pure Kansas, like "Crossfire", "Windows", "Play On", etc. And actually, I found "Play the Game Tonight" (which takes quite a beating in this video) to be an excellent single and one of the band's best radio hits. Elefante was a great find on vocals IMO, and the changes in style can't all be blamed on him, as a few of Livgren's songs went into new territory as well ("Diamonds & Pearls", "Fair Exchange". The Christian lyrical element didn't bother me at all, and is expressed without sounding any more "preachy" than Livgren's earlier lyrics reflecting Eastern religions and reincarnation. Some of this album had to grow on me over time, but I do consider it a fine Kansas album.
Abstain: Renaissance "Prologue" (I've never heard this album, so not fair to rank it)
I just re-listened 'Season's End', a great Hogarth-era album. 'Easter' is my favorite Marillion song.
1. Nursery Cryme
2. Season's End
3. Vinyl Confessions
4. Prologue
Seasons Enf. But let’s give a shoutout to After Me, a truly underrated track
Awesome Andromeda shirt, George! I had that one but I'm not sure I still have it. I co-sponsored them at ProgPower on that album. 🤘🏼 Too bad they've disappeared. ☹️
It definitely is. Thanks man!
If we're going by quality of album it would be, for me, from fourth to first: Kansas, Marillion, Renaissance, Genesis. If we're going by how important the change was to the band I would go Marillion, Kansas, Genesis, Renaissance, because the new band line-up in Renaissance was huge to the change of their sound. Genesis already had little flashes on Trespass of where their sound would be heading.
Not familiar with three. This is how I rank them.
Genesis - Nursery Cryme
Marillion - Seasons End
Renaissance - Prologue
Kansas - Vinyl Confessions
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As I hear them:
4. Kansas
3. Genesis
2. Renaissance
1. Marillion
I felt that -you guys would beunanimous y on Genesis, cause the addition of Hackett, and Collins’s truly made them a superstar prog. Band!!!!
1. VINYL CONFESSIONS
2. PROLOGUE
3.NURSERY CRYME
4. SEASON'S END
It would shock me if Ken is a musician, especially a guitarist.
To say Rothery "isn't a player" is kinda like saying "yeah I went to Hawaii, but I'm just not seeing what all the fuss is about"
I get the feeling Ken is impressed by shredding, rather than phrasing.
I am not a musician. I don’t listen to shredders and clearly you know nothing about my taste. All the musicians in Marillion are fine but that is not a band that takes extended solos or much in the way of long instrumental passages. Their music is not, to my ears, a chopsfest.
Id go
Genesis
Marillion
Renaissance
Kansas
Love all these bands though!
1: Genesis. 2: Marillion. Never heard either of the other albums so can't rate them.. Great show, thanks lads.
C'mon guys - it's Valentine's day so more than my life's worth to watch this just now. But... 1. Nursery Cryme 2. Prologue 3. Season's End 4. Vinyl Confessions and moderately big gaps between them all.
Maybe do with me having the olds: at 6️⃣1️⃣. And seeing. KANSAS/. Nov 8️⃣0️⃣. PALLADIUM NYC. ( my second concert). I put. KANSAS at top. 👍💯
Let me guess… most people will vote Nursery Crime 1st and Seasons 2nd.
As soon as I saw that "Nursery Cryme" was included I knew what the outcome would be, and that's exactly how it played out. Very predictable, Why not just put "Close To the Edge" up against 3 other prog albums sure to split opinions. (Personally, Marillion "Season's End" would have been my number 1 in this discussion. I like early Genesis, but listen to modern day Marillion far more often.)
Easy:
1) Nursery Cryme (c'mon!)
2) season's end
3) Prologue
4) Vinyl confession (huge step down fro, Audio visions)
1. Nursery Cryme
2. Season's End
3. Vinyl Confessions (distant!)
Never heard Prologue, but I think there's a good chance I'd like it better than Vinyl Confessions.
Clearly, Nursery Crymes is far and away the best album, followed for me by Renaissance, Marillion & Kansas. I'm not a Kansas fan and the god squadding really puts me off, speaking as a Jewish atheist. You mentioned if you had done And then there were 3 as the Genesis album, what about if you had chosen Trick of the tail. Admittedly that is a less drastic musical change than the other 2 changes, but if that album had failed Genesis would probably have collapsed, just a thought. I wonder if Steven had been there would he have chosed Marillion?
Is Judaism not a religion? How can you be a Jewish atheist? I’m a Buddhist atheist…🤦♂️
Seasons end is the only marillion album with Hogarth that I really loved but I really loved that album. I even like it better than nursery Cryme. I don’t know the other 2
I don’t think that was a fair competition. You gave Genesis a 300m start in a 400m race.😮
Genesis at #1 is a no-brainer
Kansas at #2 for me, I like the AOR-prog vibe.
As for the other two, I could definitely upgrade my familiarity with them, but the Renaissance would be third and Marillion fourth.
Other than Genesis being embedded at #1, by a long shot, the other three could easily shift positions.
Fun idea for an episode. I agree that Nursery Cryme is not a great sounding recording, but I really like the album a lot. Maybe my favorite Gabriel era Genesis album. What pressing, vinyl and/or CD, is the best sounding?
Classic Records vinyl pressing. The upcoming Atlantic 75 45rpm edition will beat them all.
Love vinyl confessions
WoW, thanks Ken for opening my eyes .
I mean I've only been listening 2 MARILLION since 82/83 .
When I heard them as a 20 year old and all 40 years later DAMN I've been stupid all this time.
Those MARILLION lps were my gateway drug to PROGRESSIVE ROCK.
I fell deeply in love with them and Prog(before I was just flirting.) .
it took a little later for me to dive into PROG .But if you had been around instead of my friend JD I would have steered clear of MARILLION.
I already would get mad at what you say sometime .But this time It's a load BS.
You're more than welcome.
For what it’s worth, my picks:
1. Genesis: #1 all the way. Fantastic album with classic tunes.
2. Marillion: I love all eras of Marillion and this was a great first effort from the Hogarth era.
3. Kansas: A major step down from previous efforts, but still some great songs on this one. Worth owning for “Play The Game Tonight,” “Windows” and “Crossfire” alone
4. Renaissance: A good first effort from what most consider the classic lineup, but they would do much better.
1.) Genesis
2.) Marillion
3.) Kansas
4.) Renaissance
(side note: dig the Andromeda shirt, George!)
The Professor should have his tenure revoked over that dis on Steve Rothery. He may not do 10 minute solos, but he's a master of solos that have great impact with the song, with a great sense of melody, emotion, as well playing with a very clean & precise technique.
You can’t handle the truth.
Is there any chance to return to the weekly Prog Seat? How about a spin off Prog Seat Album Study show separate from the main show? Maybe choose the album study from a well crafted poll.
Not at this time.
I wish!
1. Marillion - Season's End (this is Marillion's Trick of the Tail. They lost Fish, Hogarth joined and they didn't miss a single beat. King of Sunset Town, Easter, Season's End, Berlin, all amazing.)
2. Renaissance - Prologue (Solid album, not a bad song on the album, a lot better than the first two, but better would follow.)
3. Genesis - Nursery Cryme (Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacis are amazing, but the album is a little incohesive, and I really don't like Harold the Barrel)
4. Kansas - Vinyl Confessions (I really don't care for Christian Rock era Kansas)
I'm with you on Marillion. They went into a different direction and are still treating us to one treasure after another.
Marillion "Season's End" would be my number 1 in this discussion, too. I fully appreciate the magic of early Genesis with Hackett. but for me H era Marillion is next level in terms of emotion and having a deeper impact & meaning in my life.
All decent albums. With that said…
1. Genesis - Nursery Cryme
2. Kansas - Vinyl Confessions
3. Marillion - Seasons End
4. Renaissance - Prologue
Nursery Cryme , Seasons end, Vinyl confessions, Prologue is the order for me. Genesis change is out of contest.
Great T-shirt George! Andromeda isn't it? Great prog metal.
Correct. Good eye!
Well I've only heard The Cryme...so its an easy win. Plus , as soon as anybody mentions born-again its immediately a release I will never buy...ever...
i simply did not know Renaissance (but a little listening gives me at least the impression, that the pianist is really nice) and not much about Kansas...hearing the first song and considering, its from 1982...were they hoping for a Rocky 4 that year?
The ones i know are Season`s End and Nursery Cryme. Technically Nursery Cryme is the Giant here, but i prefer listening to Season`s End, e.g. when i listen to Musical Box its the Live Version from "Genesis Live". But: Harold the Barrel remains one of my Top 50 Genesis Songs. Season`s End has Easter and the Title Track and its a good album throughout.
So for me its: 1. Season`s End 2. Nursery Cryme 3. Vinyl Confessions 4. Prologue
Marillion - Seasons End
Genesis - Nursery Cryme
Kansas - Vinyl Confessions
Renaissance - Prologue
marillions new sounding album for me
I don't know the Renaissance album. Genesis didn't miss a beat though I'm a much bigger Kansas fan. Marillion easily wins for me.
1. Marillion
2. Genesis
3. Kansas
4. Renaissance
Don’t understand why some people are SO offended by Christian lyrics. Are you offended by Hindu or Buddhist lyrics? By “satanic” lyrics? For crying out loud, they’re just words. No one is trying to convert you! These lyricists are just writing about what’s important to them. My goodness, how touchy you are.
Some people don’t like political lyrics, or satanic lyrics, or songs about relationships, or dragons…it’s all a personal preference. Religious lyrics is no different with some people.
This from the harridan that has a conniption every time Kansas isn't ranked highly on a topic? Ironic
Not offended. On The Other Side is one of my favorite Kansas songs and it has religious lyrics. That being said, an album as weak as this one certainly didn’t benefit from religious lyrics that took on a judgmental rather than uplifting tone. They may not be the main weakness of this album, but they must be mentioned.
@@seaoftranquilityprogNever heard anyone complain about anything other than Christian lyrics. And I’m certain that your listener who so lovingly called me a harridan is NOT a Christian. I’m just someone who doesn’t judge an album solely by it’s lyrics.
Janice, you obviously aren’t watching those videos or reading the comments, as it happens all the time.
Not familiar with the Kansas album. I own the other 3 albums and they are all great. Tough to rank them
Fly By Night would have been a better album to have in there. Too many panelists said they hadn't heard all the albums. It was obvious that Genesis would be a hands down winner out of these four.
1. Genesis- Nursery Cryme
2. Renaissance- Prologue
3. Kansas- Vinyl Confessions
I haven't heard the Marillion one.
This Genesis album is to me easily the best, for me the other three are pretty close but If a guns to my head I would go Marillion, then Renaissance and Kansas last only because I am not as familiar with this album
At the time, “Nursery Cryme” was not a drastic change, Genesis were still unknown at the time so were Hackett and Collins.❤️🎼
Renaissance were also pretty unknown...but this was a HUGE line-up shuffle for Genesis, and with Hackett and Collins joining the band this became their classic line-up. There's no rule that said the bands had to have been famous prior or the replacement members. Jon Elefante was an unknown, as was Steve Hogarth. All these new members in all 4 examples were unknown.
@@seaoftranquilityprog You are right! Hope you have a great day!😀❤️
And they thought about disbanding after Ant Phillips left. They were very close with him.
@@seaoftranquilityprog I understand your point . A better example would have been when Tommy Shaw joined Styx or when James Labrie joined Dream Theater or when Tony Levin joined King Crimson.😀❤️🎼
How about King Crimson, new Discipline set up?
King Crimson were non existent for five years, so it’s not as if there was a drastic line-up change…it was a completely new band. That’s why we didn’t consider them here.
1. Marillion
2. Genesis
3. Kansas
4. Renaissance
So Genesis wins - no sh!t Sherlock! 😁 My ranking:
1. Genesis - a masterpiece by the greatest band of all time
2. Marillion - an excellent debut album for the Hogarth era
3. Renaissance - a very good start for the Haslam era, but not as good as their classic period from "Ashes..." to "A Song..."
4. Kansas - never heard as the band made little headway in the UK
Loved Christians ballons..
Classic Genesis is the cream of the crop of 70's Prog. It doesn't get any better.
But I don't even care about Renaissance before the Prologue lineup. Anne Haslim and company are an entirely different band. Yes they would get better with future albums. But Prologue is really good. The fact I love the later lineup and could care less about the old lineup and can hardly stand it at times makes Renaissance more improved than Genesis. I may just have to put them at #1.
I'm not much a Marillion fan. But later Marillion is more interesting than later Kansas. I would have liked the old lineup of Marillion better is Fish wasn't so polarizing as a vocalist. I like the music better for later Marillion. It's more original and versatile.
Early Kansas is amazing. Ok they are not Dream Theater but still one of the best bands from the USA in Prog. Mopped the floor with Styx. Something like British Prog meets Mahavisnu Orchesta or Dixie Dregs. The later stuff inspiring lyrics but very Arena Rock. They sound too much like Foreigner at times.
1. KANSAS
2. GENESIS
3. MARILLION
4. RENAISSANCE
and them the suddenly for 3 comment woke me up...
4. Renaissance
3. Kansas
2. Marillion
1. Genesis
As usual, fun discussion guys! Genesis No. 1 for me as well.
Maybe somebody can help me out with Marillion? I just listened to Seasons End and it just doesn’t do it for me. I have tried Marillion a bunch of times but it’s just too soft I guess. Maybe somebody can point me towards the heaviest, progiest of their album‘s?
The h era Marillion is moodier than the Fish era. Lots of emotional highs and lows. I find SE to be a fantastic album with highlights in every song. I suggest listening at higher volumes to experience the mood changes to best effect.
1 Renaissance
2 Kansas
3 Marillion
4 Genesis
The comment dissing Steve Walsh was really bogus.
I'm sorry i missed the stream
Nursery Cryme > Prologue > Seasons End >>> Vinyl Confessions
Kansas--Vinyl Confessions is better than Audio-Visions, but not as good as the first six albums. Partially due to being in the 80s, the songs are shorter, and not as much prog.
Genesis is the number one here, Marillion and Renaissance tied just a hair ahead of Kansas.
3 of the bands had a new singer. So for Genesis it should have been Trick of the Tail
For me
1. Marillion
2. Genesis (either Trick or Nursery)
3. Renaissance
4. Kansas
Topic was major line up change….open to any member, not just singer.
@@seaoftranquilityprogYes, I got that. I just thought, that this would be more fitting. For Kansas and MArillion the Lineup Changes were after the bands already had some commercial and creative success, same with Genesis after Gabriel leaves.
OK, I'm missing something. Gabriel sang on Nursery Cryme. Collins sang one lead and backup otherwise no? Granted, we have Hackett for the first time, but wouldn't a bigger lineup change / better choice for a Genesis lineup change have been A Trick of the Tail?
Hackett and Collins join for the first time...and it becomes the classic line-up of the band. Not sure why that isn't a drastic and important change.
@@seaoftranquilityprogmy mistake. I was thinking of lineup change as someone leaving and others taking their place, but this isn’t always the case.
I really like the fabulous sound of that Led Zeppelin record by The Beatles!
Haven't heard those marillion, kansas or renaissance albums. However Genesis and Nursery Cryme kinda suck and are extremely overrated in my opinion. I would't call Genesis prog rock, they are more like prog pop or like something of an aristocratic prog pop band. Listening to Genesis is like wanting to go to a pub to drink whisky and beer with your friends and ending up in a tea party where no alcohol is allowed. Genesis really doesn't do it for me. Prefer Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, ELP, Jethro Tull, Rush, Pink floyd. Have to check out Marillion and renaissance. Cheers
1- Genesis
2- Marillion
3- Renaissance
400- Kansas
Nursery Cryme...The Dogs Bollocks....behave yourselves
Play the Game Tonight was a hit (peaked at #19) and not almost a hit as Christian said. It also had a tone of air play.
One might argue that #19 isn't quite a 'hit'...for Kansas, it was fairly successful, but in mainstream speak, that's not quite a blockbuster. Ask 10 random people on the street if they know Play the Game, and you might get one person who knows the song. Dust in the Wind or Carry on Wayward Son? That's a whole other conversation.
@@seaoftranquilityprog True it was not a blockbuster but a top 20 hit is a hit and it did receive a ton of air play on rock radio.
@@jtm7336 Regarding radio play - you are absolutely correct. At that time I lived right near the border between NW Indiana and Chicago, so we got to listen to all the big Chicago rock stations as well as a smaller Indiana station. All of them were playing "Play The Game Tonight" in frequent rotation. Seemed at the time like it was Kansas' newest "Carry On WayWard Son". And they were still drawing huge Midwest concert attendance even with Walsh gone. The Chicago area "Vinyl Confessions" show was at a 25,000 seater and it was packed. They also picked-up a lot of the local Christian rock audience with that album/tour, and Christian concerts were a big thing in that area. So even if they did lose some people with Walsh's departure, there were new people that embraced the Christian songs & Elefante...So while the chart numbers don't show it today, and the song now seems to be forgotten by "Classic Rock" stations, "Play the Game Tonight" was a huge radio hit, at least in the Midwest.
Wow. Pete! You said album wars are “taking over the channel “ and also you’re “ just gonna go through the motions”. I’m riding for the resistance. SoT was better before album wars took over.
Views of these shows prove otherwise. We’ll be doing some more, but no, they aren’t taking over the channel. The cast loves doing them, and the majority of our audience do as well.
Yeah a know you’re getting a lot of views and that’s why you keep doing it. Thanks for your response Pete you’re great.
@@seaoftranquilityprog as a "sometimes viewer" i can say: a video with a cast like this makes me coming back more often 🙂
Vinyl Confessions was a poor choice. It would have been more competitive had you chosen one of Kansas’ last 2 releases when nearly the entire band had changed. They may have come out on top.
And that is why we didn’t choose it. The theme of this show is a band that had a ‘drastic’ change to their line-up…Walsh was their iconic singer, and him leaving in favor of Elefante was a big deal. Honestly Janice, I would think that you would be happy that Kansas was even in this conversation…
Not that album! Steve’s voice was on its way to a sad death. And Kerry & Dave were on their way to AD.
Genesis #1 haven't heard Renaissance or Kansas, although I do like other Kansas albums, #4 Marillion, can't stand H voice.
1. Genesis (well of course this was a major change in sound but I don't think Phil Collins had something to say on this one, when Phil took over 10 years later they became basically a pop band)
2. Marillion (I like Seasons End but the band lost its balls on this one never to regain them)
3. Renaissance (mild "progressive rock", dunno what they're doing here)
4. Kansas (I don't care for this band, they should stand next to Journey and Styx rather than Genesis or Marillion, not this planet man)
Renaissance changed their lineup because Keith Relf died.❤️
Wrong. "Prologue" was released in 1972. Keith Relf died in 1976.
@@NigelSmith66 You are right😀❤️🎼
@@NigelSmith66 I am not familiar with their work. I listened to their album, there was not a drastic change.😀❤️
Dont know what to say, Kansas sucks, only Styx (thank God they aren't on this program) is worse than them.
Angry a little?
What a stupid comment.
Then why did you say it, Mike?? 😂😂. And, btw, early Kansas and 1970s and 2010s Styx rocks!!
1. Genesis
2. Renaissance
3. Marillion
4. Kansas