As someone raised evangelical but having been researching catholicism and orthodoxy, I sincerely appreciated this video! Some serious questions I've had were answered here. Thank you!
Some additional things I've observed: People coming in who have a lot of resentment about their past faith experience, and in Orthodoxy see a big contrast that they latch onto. The problem here is they will reject the good from their past (or fail to recognize it), put it down, and tend to over-focus on outward form in Orthodoxy but forget the spirituality. In some cases, in Orthodoxy they see something "strict" in contrast to "happy-clappy" evangelicalism, or perhaps they appreciate that it might be less "preachy" than their old experience (e.g. they want something more relaxed than their dry and rigid background -- e.g. frank schaeffer and his strict upbringing). All in all, it can be somewhat of a mess when people are purely "running away" from some experiences rather than wanting to be personally (and radically) transformed by Christ's love.
I've seen that part too about reject or resent. I think that to some degree, people need to embrace their mistakes or their shortcomings. Its part of humility and its alright to say "Hey, I wasn't totally in the faith..." It's humility. I'm making my move from the evangelical church, to the catholic church, to the orthodox church. I've seen that as well and yet I've told those at my parish that I can't bash the previous faiths I was associate with. Because without them, i wouldn't be here.
So true, it was Sola Scriptura Protestant theologism that led me to expand the scope of my enquiry, to "put it all on the table for examination" and it led me to Orthodoxy!
I’m a new catechumen and I’m glad I didn’t find orthodoxy too soon because I would have been a confrontational know-it-all but I became exhausted under the weight of being my own Pope so to speak. I found evangelicalism exhausting. So I come to the Orthodox Church quiet, open to learn, focusing on my nous rather than my knowledge, trying to give up my individualism and getting really comfortable with admitting that I don’t know most things. I think these late abundant times in western culture make even the best of us immature in a way. We are competitive and self serving without even knowing it. Even the most well meaning fall into it because it’s like water to a fish. When I see new converts who are sort of boisterous about it I see them the way I saw 6 year olds when I was 12. I relate but I know there’s maturity to come. I imagine experienced orthodox see me the same way, a child in certain ways but with the ability to grow. ❤️❤️ I pray for orthodoxy to grow in America.
great way to put it. As an aside, there's a reason bishops will generally have new converts wait years before considering them for seminary -- too many problems with "zeal without [true] knowledge". Quietly baking and absorbing for a decade or more does them good.
……Baking for a decade or so. That’s spot on. Baptized two years in we’re still just beginning. We barely feel able to read/chat/sing the prayers publicly.
Wait, what does Evangelical mean in America? My wife and I grew up Assyrian Orthodox, but we are also Evangelical. I would say Orthodoxy in the middle east is far more evangelical than American churches as a whole. That is if my definition is correct, i know being liberal and conservative in the Middle East is also different than America also.
There are alot of Evangelical churches in the middle east, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Israel. Evangelical just means 1. you believe the bible is Gods word and ultimate authority 2. The only way to be saved is by believing Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and rose to heaven as the divine son of God. 3. Believe in living for the service of God. 4. Biblical values such as the teachings of Christ are what you should individually strive to live by. This is typical Evangelical in the middle east, I know America seems to politicize everything but to this definition of Evangelical, any denomination or non denominational believer can be considered Evangelical. Most of all Christians in Lebanon and where my wife grew up in Syria are considered Evangelical. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and non denominational can all be included. Its just basically the opposite of progressive new age Christianity that has been shaped by political correctness in America. Theres a ton of new Evangelical churches being built all over the middle east since the mass apostate of Islam in the past 2 decades has brought alot of Muslims to Christianity after seeing the catastrophe of radical islam.
Before 2 years ago I was watching this father teaching on youtube after i watched his video i just left islam and am becoming orthodox i will get baptism after a week glory to God❤
a beloved, long ago departed Russian priest in Southeast Florida was once asked by a woman who had attended Divine Liturgy at his parish three or four times, "Father, how long does it take to become Orthodox? He knew what she was really asking but, responded instead "A life time, my dear, a life time." Many of us are concerned about these all-too-rapid conversions to Orthodoxy because too many are seeking The Church for all the wrong reasons - usually political. They wrongly see Orthodoxy as aligned with a conservative American politics. A convert to Orthodoxy I had a discussion with about 10 years ago, was sincerely lookin to deepen his Orthodox Faith as was his wife and three children. At one point, he looked at me and said, "You know, sometimes I think most of us converts are little more than Protestants with icons." I couldn't argue with that. I think it is generally considered that a two year catechumante is minimal before being received into The Church. This gives seeker two years of experience and time for any romantic notions to wear off or problems to be addressed by the catechist. I have serious doubt that this is what happens in all too many cases. As your guest mentioned there are those who - just recent converts - presume to stand up and "teach the church" while still in Orthodox diapers. I don't mean to give offense; but this attitude is most seen in the strident attitude which is most prominent in Evangelicals. On the other hand you see none of this in notable converts such as the former Anglicans Bishop Kallistos and the Patristic Scholar, Father Andrew Louth. Nor is it seen in the renowned former Lutheran and renowned Christian Church historian, Jaroslave Pelkinan of blessed memory. There is much more to say about the convert situation in America; but no room here. I have been following this mostly unhealthy phenomenon for nearly 40 ears.
I've never heard of a catechumen being baptised in less than two years, often three, not that I'm questioning your observation, but it might be local. Actually, I did know of a case of a uniate monk who was baptised in under a year but he already had a lot of Orthodox 'book-learnin' and knew what he was looking for.
I am investigating orthodoxy I have been a protestant practically all my life, a Penecostal for most of that time and as far as whether evangelicals are going to change the orthodox church, I can’t speak for anybody else, but I don’t wanna change the Orthodox Church I want to be changed into the image of Christ if somebody wants to change the church, then I would hope that the pastor or priest of the church would have the wisdom to steer them and correct them. On a sidenote, I was a part of the assemblies of god and the assemblies of god they have the 16 fundamentals all the essentials of Christianity, and if somebody teaches against one of the 16 fundamentals executive Presbytery has the power to reach out to that pastor in the tell them to cease and desist or they will lose her credentials. I don’t know if the same thing happens here in the orthodox church or not but I hope so.
I liked his comment about humility and not going on the web pretending to be an expert and in doing so with the wrong spirit. There are some I can think of. It kind of misses the point of Orthodoxy to have a proud, know-it-all spirit. So I understand his objection. As a Lutheran, I am looking at Orthodoxy in depth and praying and seeking God about it.
The world of United States of America is not the entire world. Orthodox Christianity in USA is not the entire Orthodox Christianity. The kind of online squabbling we're seeing between the Orthodox in America is ridiculous and I understand why many non-Orthodox Christians tend to regard Orthodoxy as toxic, because these things are just that - toxic.
As a practicing and God- fearing Orthodox, I have learned much from Protestants who joined the Orthodox Church, both in the USA and in the UK. Father Josiah Trenham, Bishop Kallistos Ware, being beacons of God’s Grace. We have much to learn from evangelical congregations, such as their Bible groups and prayer groups, during the week. For those of us who work during the day and are unable to attend daily Liturgies, the Protestant paradigm- or a paradigm from the Early Church, whereby the congregation gathered in Jesus’ name not solely on Sundays, is something that the Greek Church would benefit by making it the mission of every parish.
So true. I have returned to orthodoxy after attending Anglican churches for about 30 years. What surprised me the most when I joined a Greek Orthodox Bible group was their lack of knowledge of the Scriptures (apart from the Priest). Most don’t know how to find a Bible verse, they refer to the Bible page. Out of a parish of thousands only about 10 people meet regularly to study Gods word. Possibly many read their bibles at home. The previous Protestant churches I attended loved to read Gods word, something truly we as orthodox could learn to do as well. Dr Jeannie Constantinou whom I regularly listen to once said that the fact the Orthodox Church in Greece was occupied by the Ottomans meant they were not allowed to have bibles, so we are behind the Protestant churches in meeting to read and study Gods word, and I have to agree with her.
We should pray that God’s Grace enlightens our priests to establish Bible groups, especially in these difficult times. Thank you for your lovely observations. God bless you and yours.
Conversion has to be Liturgical, if it is based on reason, it will not last. We call Misteries rather than Sacraments, and never try to fully understand them nor explain them, and there is good reason for that, I would like to say that God Himself is Meta rational, that is above and beyond our reason capacity, not irrational, but above. That can only be experienced in the Liturgy. Even with the different details of the canonical Churches, we share the One Christ. And we have to be faithful, without changes or developments.
I just started a kind of catechism period at a local Greek Orthodox Church. They do not have a formal program, so I’m having to do this mish-mash of the telephone game with my Rector when I have questions. I have a pile of reading I’ve gathered from Dyercord and other Orthodox friends. I just hope I’m doing it right.
I am converting myself and you may not even be in my state which is alabama but if you look up "Holy Trinity Holy Cross Orthodox Church" you will see my Greek Orthodox Churchs youtube and we record our cathechism sessions if youd like to take a gander at them. i know this was 5 months ago but it may still be helpful for you. and if you are in alabama and specifically birmingham come on down to the church we would love to see you if not i hope you are well
Fr. Damick occasionally gets backlash for Ancient Faith's "don't be overly political" rule, but I think he's right on when he talks about how politics should be a secondary issue for us. Great interview, thanks for having him on.
@@JayDyer Sorry, I'm gonna need specifics if you want to make the case. Which AFM contributors push left-wing politics? Do you have specific examples of content that does this? I've never encountered any.
@@JayDyer LOL that thumbnail. I'm not going to listen to what appears to be 2 hrs of character assassination. I didn't see any sources in the description. Do you have names and links/timestamps that prove AFM doesn't try to evenly enforce its rule against contributors overtly pushing politics in AFM-hosted content? Or are you just here to drum up controversy? Based on the titles, thumbnails, and posts I just saw on your feed, you're clearly in the business of amassing a cult of personality and monetizing outrage-mongering content. I'm familiar with the business model and I don't trust people who do it.
Is this upload a statement or reference to recent controversies (which was actually initiated thanks to Father Dammick and Ancient Faith cancelling Father Tryphon due to his political views)?
@@jugsteve abused his platform? Sounds like what Father Dammick did bringing subversive radicals on. Double standard. He couldve just talked to Abbott Tryphon but no. Hed rather have on feminists and child predators
@@OrthobroLocal1 He kept bringing up US politics after being told not to. Father Damick did talk to him, warned him, and he ignored the warnings? Seems apropos of the problem of US Evangelicals raised to think Republican = Christian and then converting to Orthodoxy and not appreciating the limited overlap of culture wars and faithfulness.
Jay Dyer who Fr Damick obviously is referring to has the blessing of his priest. Fr Damick thus is disturbing a ministry which is very successful, especially towards the hard line atheists. Which no other ministry can really compare to.
Dyer reaches the global conspiracy theory crowd. They need to be saved too, so God bless him in his ministry, but he needs to be careful not to twist the truth for the sake of outreach. Also, the degree to which he is willing to insult and denigrate other people makes me wonder what kind of witness he is actually being. Christians are called to the radical task of loving our enemies and growing in virtue.
@@JW_______ Jay's approach is obviously extremely successful. He's bringing thousands to the Church from all kinds of backgrounds now not just the demographic you claim. He headbutts regularly with atheists, pagans and muslims who often only respect strength. His personality is an advantage when interacting with those people, not a disadvantage. Also he is good at creating a strong urgency for people to convert. This wheelchair quarterbacking you're engaged in will not age well.
@@henrik_worst_of_sinners If it requires a "person of strength" as you say to "bring them in" I wonder what they are being brought into. A characature of Christianity that has all the right doctrine but not the heart and soul? The hart of Christian virtue is learning that true strength is to be found in humility and self-giving love, not in a disposition of belittling others.
@@JW_______ They are directed to enroll as catechumens in whatever is their local parish. There seems to be some catechesis by Metropolitan Jonah and Fr Dc Ananias for those who don't have a parish to go to, just as bandage until they find a parish. I don't know the details of this as I don't hang out on the Discord. Suffice to say that you wouldn't need to worry, as Jay abstains from any work that is only to be done by clergy. He is in the sales department, not management if you will.
I've been Orthodox all my life, have heard of "convertitis" many times, but have never heard of the guy. so not sure it's so "obvious". Maybe you are seeing a false pattern?
I’m on the fringe of orthodoxy because I work every Sunday. How can one engage in liturgy or receive communion from work?? People like me can’t even be catechized. Anyone have any suggestions or comments ? I’m certainly not alone in this.
Idk but ik a priest can bring it to the sick so there are options, I would highly recommend that you talk to a priest about it. Also I'm almost positive that there are some parishes that take communion every day so you could also look into those aswell.
In Muslim-majority countries in the Middle-East, Christians typically have to work on Sundays also. Those who have a kind-hearted boss may get an allowance to leave work for a couple of hours to attend Liturgy. Barring that, many churches celebrate additional liturgies during the week. My own parish in Houston, TX has made a practice of celebrating Liturgy on Thursday mornings at 7AM, and our catechesis occurs on Wednesday evenings. Perhaps some parish in your area does something similar?
As a Protestant investigating orthodoxy with an open mind, I have to say I can see their point about young converts but also see it paired with a seeming lack of evangalism in the orthodoxy church. It is no wonder that someone coming from a tradition steeped in sharing the good news would seek to share the good news, even if it is detrimental, or at least seen to be so. Much of the effective evangalism done by evangelicals is done by the lay person who don't have all the answers. It would make sense then that a oddly ethnocentric denomination used to growth coming through child bearing would insist on the priesthood doing most evangelistic efforts and even then only within the bounds of accepted thought. Since so many in the east have been persecuted for so long it could make sense that this precious belief system should only be shared if done perfectly so as to preserve it exactly as it has been protected but that is is why evangalism has been so difficult. There is definitely some opening up that needs to be done mentally, not even traditions wise, for the Orthodox church it would seem so as to share the joy they have with others more openly rather than the under siege mentality even in the west where we are largely not in a meaningful way.
I think the convertitus he references could maybe be defined as -overzealous evangelical converts who upon discovering the "true church" finally can't understand why they are the only ones smart enough to figure it out and want to lambast others for being "dumb." I imagine it's a continuation of the spirit for example my Mom experienced as a Baptist from Church of Christ people who would outright just tell her she was going to hell because she was Baptist. It also probably stems from a byproduct of Sola Scriptura where a lot of people are in a race to have the "most accurate" translation they can when in reality I think all bibles are the same (relatively and ignoring Protestants leave out some books) within like a 98% sameness standard, though miss the spirit of the text sometimes for the literalism. Could probably also be summed up as don't miss the forest for the trees.
I know of several instances where an inquirer (or spouse of someone Orthodox) was visiting a church, but was totally turned off by jabs against evangelical christians they overheard at coffee hour.
"Protestants leave out some books" why do I hear this tossed around so much? I never hear the Catholic also leave out some books, but from your perspective, they do.
@@wilsonw.t.6878 true. I can't speak for the OP but I took it as "protestants focus a ton on exact details of the bible" but have this blindspot. I don't think the run-of-the-mill catholic convert has quite that particular focus.
I have seen many born into the Orthodox faith be just as zealous and cruel to outsiders. It's doesn't help there are tons of different jurisdictions in America alone. It's very confusing from an outsider looking in.
@Wilson W.T. It's most interesting that they're worried about which books are left out more than gaining a working knowledge of the ones that are already there! What seems to never occur to the biblically illiterate is that there's only one basic New Testament used by Catholics, Orthodox & Protestants; conservatives & liberals alike. And as Christians, that's where the bulk of our doctrine/theology comes from. I've been walking with my Lord for 26 years now & I still haven't read my KJV Apocrypha. There simply hasn't been any real need - as yet - for me to get into it. I could probably count on one hand how many times Orthodox authors - both clergy & laity - actually quote the Apocrypha in the Orthodox writings they've produced that grace the shelves of my personal Orthodox/Christian library.
I would agree with him that politics should be secondary, except he only pulls that card on those with certain politics and turns a blind eye and even supports others. He probably shouldn't point at the speck in the eyes of others when he's ignoring the log in his own.
who has he pulled that card on? I only know of one person (Abbot Tryphon), and it was after many instances and lots of space they gave. Is there a pattern with other people you can point to?
J Dyer is a decent fellow. I wonder why he's so upset by him. The guys only telling the truth. I don't think anyway he proclaimed himself as a spokesperson for the Orthodox Church. And it's the internet people can choose to listen to him or not. it's not like he's standing in front of a Pulpit and you have to see him whether you want to or not
Fr Andrew Damick has unfortunately caused much scandal in the Church recently, namely by creating unnecessary, petty divisions in the Orthodox online sphere and undermining church unity amongst the faithful. Let us pray that he will come to his senses and cease such behaviour 🙏🏻
@@mattroorda2871 the organization he is apart of promotes people with beliefs outside the church such as Skittles and such, I would advise you do your own research on the topic and come to your own opinion given the nature of this
@@robpadgett27 everyone thinks they're right. Who really lives believing they're wrong? I don't think suggesting people do their own research is somehow uniquely arrogant. No more than people who throw biased links at you.
I have often wondered: are there those among the numbers of converts to Orthodoxy who are unknowing fascinated by the exotic motif, smells & bells, "foreign OTHERNESS" that attracts you .......the clear beauty of the church's interior, icons, etc.? Maybe the fact that it is NOT Catholic? The problem IS NOT ORTHODOXY OR IT'S TEACHINGS, but rather rests among the "here comes everybody" mindset of those entering. JUST MUSING.....no offense meant.
Jay Dyer isn't Humble he's to boastful that's not Christian"I have ex Greek Orthodox friend's who got turned off by Jay Dyer like people. And they are now Catholic the Dracoules family. God bless 🙏🛐📰🗞️✍️ I like Gideon Lazar a ex Orthodox who's now a Catholic writer 🗞️📰✍️ good Writer Gideon Lazar 🙏😇🗝️🗝️
Orthodoxy has been around from the beginning of christianity although the word Orthodox, meaning the correct way, wasn't used until the great divorce of the church in 1054. Evangelists are so far removed from the original word. I'm curious about how people think they are saved based on just believing in Christ when in orthodoxy, the opposite mentality holds true. That we are not worthy no matter what we do.
I've been evangelized by Evangelicals, Lutherans, Baptist, Methodists, Pentecostals, Calvinists...you name it. Never by Orthodox. Hardly the "message" here presented by the Orthodox being the one true church. Seems to me they are an exclusive church: join us and be part of the club. Hardly what I see in Acts.
Methodists? We dont evangelize/prolysize and arent an evangelical religion 😂 methodists are the most middle of the road mind their own business christians you could ever find.
“Unfortunately, American Evangelicalism is an extraordinarily crude and fundamentalist religion. And so they’ve taken on their Palamism almost like a faith statement, just an unarguable set of propositions. And the state of Orthodoxy in America right now is absolutely catastrophic, precisely because it’s been so successful in gaining converts. What’s happened? Let me put it this way: Christianity never succeeded in America. Most Americans think of themselves as Christians. But the only religion in America that ever flourished was America. And it twists everything into its own image. And Orthodoxy now is going through the process Catholicism went through in earlier generations: it’s being Americanised. It’s being turned into a version of the American religion, which is about civil order, prosperity, capitalism, a moral code that is not premised on forgiveness so much as upon judgement. And the influx of former Evangelicals has made this something of a disastrous situation, because they bring with them very narrow habits of thought-the way they were taught to think about religion, about faith. And also, like converts everywhere, to everything, the version of the religion to which they converted they cling to more fiercely than people who were born Orthodox. If you are born Orthodox, it’s just a place where you live. For them it’s an ideology they’ve adopted, so it must be pure. And because they’re evangelicals, that also means simplified, inflexible and cruel.” Источник: theoaesthetics.ru/david-bentley-hart-the-theologian-is-a-quiet-rioter.html interesting at the very least…
I was born and raised Greek Orthodox. David Bentley Hart is a heretic. He and those who follow his faux-intellectualized distortion of Orthodoxy in fact constitute the main source of the "convert" problem in the Orthodox Church, not pious evangelicals who, being abandoned as spiritual orphans by a crumbling edifice of liberal Protestantism, have zealously adopted the faith. This has little to do with any sociological dynamic unique to America, as the pernicious moral and theological decay these converts are fleeing is universal to Western Christianity as such, in whatever part of the world it may exist, and wherever its ethos has played a decisive role in shaping fundamental institutions. Your critique appears to reflect not so much an Orthodox phronema, but rather the indignant rhetoric of secular ideologues who push leftism and anarchism as an antidote to various social ills, real or imagined. As Orthodox Christians, we certainly would not place our duties to any secular government above the imperatives of our participation in the Life of the Church, but that is a far cry from the kind of anarchistic detachment from civic life implied by your views. There is nothing wrong with an Orthodox Christian harboring nationalistic feeling or in caring about the prosperity and good order of society. In fact St. Paul teachea that as Christians we should respect and humbly submit to civil authority, since such authority has ultimately been invested by God. That is why we offer up prayers for our leaders at every liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy does not teach that it is our duty as Christians to critique capitalism and liberal forms of government, but to seek holiness through a life of repentance. We are to seek to change ourselves, not reform the world, with its ever developing dialectic of ideas, ideologies, and systems. Orthodoxy in essence is the purification of the heart, and has nothing to do with the smug condescension of situating oneself above society as a snooty critic, batting a contemptuous eye at the "vulgar" preoccupations of the "herd". You are grossly mislead in your view that there are various "versions" of Orthodoxy. That is false. There is only one Orthodox faith and praxis which is common to all Orthodox Churches throughout the world. The phenomenon you identify among those Orthodox who are born into the faith, yet who regard Orthodoxy primarily as an element of their native culture; that is quite simply the phenomenon of religious nominalism, which can hardly be said to be unique to cradle Orthodox Christians. There are plenty of Catholics and Protestants - and even Muslims, Jews, and Hindus -- for whom religion functions merely as a set of cultural totems, rituals, and traditions which are unthinkingly embraced as part of one's basic identity, often in the total absence of any concrete manifestations of authentic personal religious devotion. This is fundamentally a problem of modernity, not Orthodoxy, which is why your characterization fails on every level. Have a nice day.
@@ddawg6482 A bit hyperbolic, but I enjoyed reading your response, it was very well thought out. Also just to be clear, the article was interesting to me not my view so a bit too much was assumed.(Perhaps that’s my fault.lol) I am a convert from an extreme sect of fundamentalist to Greek Orthodox so the article resonated with me a bit concerning that particular context as I’m very well acquainted with the narrow habits of thought we are conditioned to have. But for the most part I agree with your statement. 👍 And also You’ll be happy to know I’m having a very nice day! God bless.
"It's just a place where you live" - otherwise known as being "nominal." That's not what Christianity is supposed to be. Christ told us what He would do with the lukewarm. And yes, it must be pure. Because the Church is either correct in its dogmas and its claims about itself, or it isn't. If it isn't, there's no point, is there? Unless of course, you see at as your culture, inextricably entwined with your ethnicity - in other words, "just a place where you live." There are many wonderful, devout cradles. But unfortunately, there are also a significant number who see Orthodoxy as their property. It belongs to them by right of heredity, whether they actually believe in it or not. They considered people from non-traditionally-Orthodox ethnicities and backgrounds as undeserving of what they see as being only supposed to be for them and their kin. They like being part of the One, True, Church, and they want to keep it for themselves. However, the Orthodox Church being the One, True Universal Church and the Orthodox Church being only for people of certain ethnicities are mutually exclusive. Either it's the True Church, for everyone, or it's an ethnic religion like Judaism. It's either the Church or a Synagogue. It can't be both.
@@jugsteve Jay dyer just regurgitates what Orthodox scholars say. Also he has blessings from clergy. So your very unspecific critique doesn't add any value.
@@mesmichael I'm not a boomer. The notion that the best sources of information are found free and online by non-experts strikes me as a far weaker argument. Especially about Orthodox Christianity, a faith with a long, predominantly non-English language theological tradition.
I've only listened to Jay Dyer for several months but I think the not so veiled attack on him is unnecessarily sharp. I realise that the comment was made off the cuff. To give him his due, the speaker probably regretted it later, but it still carries the danger of misleading people. Better not to have brought it up at all than to throw out a few vague hints that could refer to anything. . . . I myself was shocked at first by what I thought was gratuitously crude and sometimes nasty derision on Jay's part, but the more I listened to him the less of it I heard. It's actually pretty rare. I'm not trying to justify it. Nor do I question now whether it has its place. I don't know, though I suspect it draws the crowds which may be its intent. I am not an apologist nor a theologian and cannot assess what is or is not justified in the forum of free-for-all debate. But most of Jay's loudest critics are the ones he bested almost effortlessly in arguments they volunteered, without compulsion, to engage in, and in the aftermath they are bitter and afraid of him with ample reason. As to Jay's method or manners, deceptively reducing his mission to some bad examples borders on injustice. What more loving service can a man provide his brother than to approach him with the Truth and enlighten him unto salvation by leading him toward participation in the Graces of the Holy Mysteries? Of course, in trying to break though the husks of mental resistance, and to get people really thinking, sometimes some drama comes to aid, and sometimes really hurts. But what is Christianity if not a struggle, a continuum of being hurt? And there is always more to come. Maybe that is where the umileniye comes in, learning to smile though the tears and sometimes on account of them, and being ousted from the 'safe spaces' which exist only in illusions is a good thing. At any rate, Jay is excelling in the service he is offering and has acted with more actual effective charity than some of his critics have, who understandably don't like his style, and one sincerely feels for them, by measurable quanta. We can't always be the dove. We sometimes have to emulate the serpent in our foresight. By the way, I am Old Kalendarist, not Jay's favourite type of person, so I'm not a groupie. \ (Typos corrected.) I just read this over and I have to revise it. I misspoke, but not deliberately. To be honest, I wasn't shocked at all, merely surprised and possibly amused or electrified. I didn't altogether approve of it, but I am almost always in favour of breaking boundaries to further frank expression. Admittedly it can go too far, and become petty or malicious, but who's to say where that is? It's almost always up to personal taste and opinion. And some people appreciate being called out forthrightly. It's not usually pleasant, but it helps to see where one has gone wrong and how wrong one has gone if one is really forced to stare at it, which one doesn't otherwise do.
Coming from Europe, this new orthodox hype seems suspicious to me. Usually in Eastern or Latin countries you keep the faith of your family and transmit it to your children (be it catholic or orthodox). That's why orthodoxy is very nationalist in Eastern Europe. You don't try to convert every body else, you just stick to the tradition of your fathers. In North America, it looks more like a religion supermarket with lot of apologetics and some people changing church every 5 year. This kind of attitude toward religion is definitely not something you'll find in Eastern countries.
@Slavic Life I agree with what you say, it has to be spread. However, for some converts I am somewhat skeptical. If you see someone who was Buddhist, then evangelical, then catholic and finally orthodox, it raises some red flags imo...
@Slavic Life I attend weekly and read the fathers or scriptures almost daily, why? I sincerely hope you are right and that once the hype is over the situation won't change too much (and as you say the 1-3 year probation would definitely help).
As someone raised evangelical but having been researching catholicism and orthodoxy, I sincerely appreciated this video! Some serious questions I've had were answered here. Thank you!
Glad to hear it was helpful!
Some additional things I've observed: People coming in who have a lot of resentment about their past faith experience, and in Orthodoxy see a big contrast that they latch onto. The problem here is they will reject the good from their past (or fail to recognize it), put it down, and tend to over-focus on outward form in Orthodoxy but forget the spirituality. In some cases, in Orthodoxy they see something "strict" in contrast to "happy-clappy" evangelicalism, or perhaps they appreciate that it might be less "preachy" than their old experience (e.g. they want something more relaxed than their dry and rigid background -- e.g. frank schaeffer and his strict upbringing).
All in all, it can be somewhat of a mess when people are purely "running away" from some experiences rather than wanting to be personally (and radically) transformed by Christ's love.
I've seen that part too about reject or resent. I think that to some degree, people need to embrace their mistakes or their shortcomings. Its part of humility and its alright to say "Hey, I wasn't totally in the faith..." It's humility.
I'm making my move from the evangelical church, to the catholic church, to the orthodox church.
I've seen that as well and yet I've told those at my parish that I can't bash the previous faiths I was associate with. Because without them, i wouldn't be here.
So true, it was Sola Scriptura Protestant theologism that led me to expand the scope of my enquiry, to "put it all on the table for examination" and it led me to Orthodoxy!
I’m a new catechumen and I’m glad I didn’t find orthodoxy too soon because I would have been a confrontational know-it-all but I became exhausted under the weight of being my own Pope so to speak. I found evangelicalism exhausting. So I come to the Orthodox Church quiet, open to learn, focusing on my nous rather than my knowledge, trying to give up my individualism and getting really comfortable with admitting that I don’t know most things. I think these late abundant times in western culture make even the best of us immature in a way. We are competitive and self serving without even knowing it. Even the most well meaning fall into it because it’s like water to a fish. When I see new converts who are sort of boisterous about it I see them the way I saw 6 year olds when I was 12. I relate but I know there’s maturity to come. I imagine experienced orthodox see me the same way, a child in certain ways but with the ability to grow. ❤️❤️ I pray for orthodoxy to grow in America.
great way to put it. As an aside, there's a reason bishops will generally have new converts wait years before considering them for seminary -- too many problems with "zeal without [true] knowledge". Quietly baking and absorbing for a decade or more does them good.
……Baking for a decade or so. That’s spot on. Baptized two years in we’re still just beginning. We barely feel able to read/chat/sing the prayers publicly.
Wait, what does Evangelical mean in America? My wife and I grew up Assyrian Orthodox, but we are also Evangelical. I would say Orthodoxy in the middle east is far more evangelical than American churches as a whole. That is if my definition is correct, i know being liberal and conservative in the Middle East is also different than America also.
There are alot of Evangelical churches in the middle east, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Israel. Evangelical just means 1. you believe the bible is Gods word and ultimate authority 2. The only way to be saved is by believing Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and rose to heaven as the divine son of God.
3. Believe in living for the service of God.
4. Biblical values such as the teachings of Christ are what you should individually strive to live by.
This is typical Evangelical in the middle east, I know America seems to politicize everything but to this definition of Evangelical, any denomination or non denominational believer can be considered Evangelical. Most of all Christians in Lebanon and where my wife grew up in Syria are considered Evangelical. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and non denominational can all be included. Its just basically the opposite of progressive new age Christianity that has been shaped by political correctness in America. Theres a ton of new Evangelical churches being built all over the middle east since the mass apostate of Islam in the past 2 decades has brought alot of Muslims to Christianity after seeing the catastrophe of radical islam.
@@sukaenacornelius9285 As former Evangelicals it’s a broad brush including what you said but adding being Protestant.
Before 2 years ago I was watching this father teaching on youtube after i watched his video i just left islam and am becoming orthodox i will get baptism after a week glory to God❤
Praise to the Lord Jesus Christ!!Bless you!!🙏🙏
a beloved, long ago departed Russian priest in Southeast Florida was once asked by a woman who had attended Divine Liturgy at his parish three or four times, "Father, how long does it take to become Orthodox? He knew what she was really asking but, responded instead "A life time, my dear, a life time." Many of us are concerned about these all-too-rapid conversions to Orthodoxy because too many are seeking The Church for all the wrong reasons - usually political. They wrongly see Orthodoxy as aligned with a conservative American politics. A convert to Orthodoxy I had a discussion with about 10 years ago, was sincerely lookin to deepen his Orthodox Faith as was his wife and three children. At one point, he looked at me and said, "You know, sometimes I think most of us converts are little more than Protestants with icons." I couldn't argue with that. I think it is generally considered that a two year catechumante is minimal before being received into The Church. This gives seeker two years of experience and time for any romantic notions to wear off or problems to be addressed by the catechist. I have serious doubt that this is what happens in all too many cases. As your guest mentioned there are those who - just recent converts - presume to stand up and "teach the church" while still in Orthodox diapers. I don't mean to give offense; but this attitude is most seen in the strident attitude which is most prominent in Evangelicals. On the other hand you see none of this in notable converts such as the former Anglicans Bishop Kallistos and the Patristic Scholar, Father Andrew Louth. Nor is it seen in the renowned former Lutheran and renowned Christian Church historian, Jaroslave Pelkinan of blessed memory. There is much more to say about the convert situation in America; but no room here. I have been following this mostly unhealthy phenomenon for nearly 40 ears.
I've never heard of a catechumen being baptised in less than two years, often three, not that I'm questioning your observation, but it might be local. Actually, I did know of a case of a uniate monk who was baptised in under a year but he already had a lot of Orthodox 'book-learnin' and knew what he was looking for.
Bojan Bible Illustrated, Bad Reasons to Convert or Stay Orthodox.
Love Bojan, usually..
Love!
@@severianmonk5286 I was Baptised in four months with zero catechesis. It does happen.
Most conversion processes are a year in America.
I am investigating orthodoxy I have been a protestant practically all my life, a Penecostal for most of that time and as far as whether evangelicals are going to change the orthodox church, I can’t speak for anybody else, but I don’t wanna change the Orthodox Church I want to be changed into the image of Christ if somebody wants to change the church, then I would hope that the pastor or priest of the church would have the wisdom to steer them and correct them. On a sidenote, I was a part of the assemblies of god and the assemblies of god they have the 16 fundamentals all the essentials of Christianity, and if somebody teaches against one of the 16 fundamentals executive Presbytery has the power to reach out to that pastor in the tell them to cease and desist or they will lose her credentials. I don’t know if the same thing happens here in the orthodox church or not but I hope so.
I was raised up penticostal. I am leaving protestantism. I will be converting to orthodox God bless you
We are hungry! Where have you been all my life!
I liked his comment about humility and not going on the web pretending to be an expert and in doing so with the wrong spirit. There are some I can think of. It kind of misses the point of Orthodoxy to have a proud, know-it-all spirit. So I understand his objection. As a Lutheran, I am looking at Orthodoxy in depth and praying and seeking God about it.
The world of United States of America is not the entire world. Orthodox Christianity in USA is not the entire Orthodox Christianity. The kind of online squabbling we're seeing between the Orthodox in America is ridiculous and I understand why many non-Orthodox Christians tend to regard Orthodoxy as toxic, because these things are just that - toxic.
As a practicing and God- fearing Orthodox, I have learned much from Protestants who joined the Orthodox Church, both in the USA and in the UK. Father Josiah Trenham, Bishop Kallistos Ware, being beacons of God’s Grace. We have much to learn from evangelical congregations, such as their Bible groups and prayer groups, during the week. For those of us who work during the day and are unable to attend daily Liturgies, the Protestant paradigm- or a paradigm from the Early Church, whereby the congregation gathered in Jesus’ name not solely on Sundays, is something that the Greek Church would benefit by making it the mission of every parish.
So true. I have returned to orthodoxy after attending Anglican churches for about 30 years. What surprised me the most when I joined a Greek Orthodox Bible group was their lack of knowledge of the Scriptures (apart from the Priest). Most don’t know how to find a Bible verse, they refer to the Bible page. Out of a parish of thousands only about 10 people meet regularly to study Gods word. Possibly many read their bibles at home. The previous Protestant churches I attended loved to read Gods word, something truly we as orthodox could learn to do as well. Dr Jeannie Constantinou whom I regularly listen to once said that the fact the Orthodox Church in Greece was occupied by the Ottomans meant they were not allowed to have bibles, so we are behind the Protestant churches in meeting to read and study Gods word, and I have to agree with her.
We should pray that God’s Grace enlightens our priests to establish Bible groups, especially in these difficult times. Thank you for your lovely observations. God bless you and yours.
Conversion has to be Liturgical, if it is based on reason, it will not last. We call Misteries rather than Sacraments, and never try to fully understand them nor explain them, and there is good reason for that, I would like to say that God Himself is Meta rational, that is above and beyond our reason capacity, not irrational, but above. That can only be experienced in the Liturgy. Even with the different details of the canonical Churches, we share the One Christ. And we have to be faithful, without changes or developments.
Great video, guys!
I just started a kind of catechism period at a local Greek Orthodox Church. They do not have a formal program, so I’m having to do this mish-mash of the telephone game with my Rector when I have questions. I have a pile of reading I’ve gathered from Dyercord and other Orthodox friends. I just hope I’m doing it right.
I am converting myself and you may not even be in my state which is alabama but if you look up "Holy Trinity Holy Cross Orthodox Church" you will see my Greek Orthodox Churchs youtube and we record our cathechism sessions if youd like to take a gander at them. i know this was 5 months ago but it may still be helpful for you. and if you are in alabama and specifically birmingham come on down to the church we would love to see you if not i hope you are well
@@youngsandwich967 immensely helpful! Thank you.
@@TopLobster9975 anytime my friend Godbless
Fr. Damick occasionally gets backlash for Ancient Faith's "don't be overly political" rule, but I think he's right on when he talks about how politics should be a secondary issue for us. Great interview, thanks for having him on.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fr Damick hosts liberal content at AFR.
@@JayDyer Sorry, I'm gonna need specifics if you want to make the case. Which AFM contributors push left-wing politics? Do you have specific examples of content that does this? I've never encountered any.
@@jacob5283 Yep, I have a whole 2 hour video on it. It's on my community feed
@@JayDyer LOL that thumbnail. I'm not going to listen to what appears to be 2 hrs of character assassination. I didn't see any sources in the description. Do you have names and links/timestamps that prove AFM doesn't try to evenly enforce its rule against contributors overtly pushing politics in AFM-hosted content? Or are you just here to drum up controversy?
Based on the titles, thumbnails, and posts I just saw on your feed, you're clearly in the business of amassing a cult of personality and monetizing outrage-mongering content. I'm familiar with the business model and I don't trust people who do it.
Dyer helped me begome
Same here
Same Here.
Same here
Same here
Same here
Is this upload a statement or reference to recent controversies (which was actually initiated thanks to Father Dammick and Ancient Faith cancelling Father Tryphon due to his political views)?
You know it was. Fr. Dammick trying to get out in front of a mess he himself made
Ugh. Cancelling? Father Tryphon abused his platform.
@@jugsteve abused his platform? Sounds like what Father Dammick did bringing subversive radicals on. Double standard. He couldve just talked to Abbott Tryphon but no. Hed rather have on feminists and child predators
@@jugsteve how did he abuse his platform?
@@OrthobroLocal1 He kept bringing up US politics after being told not to. Father Damick did talk to him, warned him, and he ignored the warnings? Seems apropos of the problem of US Evangelicals raised to think Republican = Christian and then converting to Orthodoxy and not appreciating the limited overlap of culture wars and faithfulness.
Jay Dyer who Fr Damick obviously is referring to has the blessing of his priest. Fr Damick thus is disturbing a ministry which is very successful, especially towards the hard line atheists. Which no other ministry can really compare to.
Dyer reaches the global conspiracy theory crowd. They need to be saved too, so God bless him in his ministry, but he needs to be careful not to twist the truth for the sake of outreach. Also, the degree to which he is willing to insult and denigrate other people makes me wonder what kind of witness he is actually being. Christians are called to the radical task of loving our enemies and growing in virtue.
@@JW_______ Jay's approach is obviously extremely successful. He's bringing thousands to the Church from all kinds of backgrounds now not just the demographic you claim. He headbutts regularly with atheists, pagans and muslims who often only respect strength. His personality is an advantage when interacting with those people, not a disadvantage. Also he is good at creating a strong urgency for people to convert.
This wheelchair quarterbacking you're engaged in will not age well.
@@henrik_worst_of_sinners If it requires a "person of strength" as you say to "bring them in" I wonder what they are being brought into. A characature of Christianity that has all the right doctrine but not the heart and soul? The hart of Christian virtue is learning that true strength is to be found in humility and self-giving love, not in a disposition of belittling others.
@@JW_______ They are directed to enroll as catechumens in whatever is their local parish. There seems to be some catechesis by Metropolitan Jonah and Fr Dc Ananias for those who don't have a parish to go to, just as bandage until they find a parish. I don't know the details of this as I don't hang out on the Discord. Suffice to say that you wouldn't need to worry, as Jay abstains from any work that is only to be done by clergy. He is in the sales department, not management if you will.
I've been Orthodox all my life, have heard of "convertitis" many times, but have never heard of the guy. so not sure it's so "obvious". Maybe you are seeing a false pattern?
I’m on the fringe of orthodoxy because I work every Sunday. How can one engage in liturgy or receive communion from work?? People like me can’t even be catechized. Anyone have any suggestions or comments ? I’m certainly not alone in this.
Idk but ik a priest can bring it to the sick so there are options, I would highly recommend that you talk to a priest about it. Also I'm almost positive that there are some parishes that take communion every day so you could also look into those aswell.
In Muslim-majority countries in the Middle-East, Christians typically have to work on Sundays also. Those who have a kind-hearted boss may get an allowance to leave work for a couple of hours to attend Liturgy. Barring that, many churches celebrate additional liturgies during the week. My own parish in Houston, TX has made a practice of celebrating Liturgy on Thursday mornings at 7AM, and our catechesis occurs on Wednesday evenings. Perhaps some parish in your area does something similar?
Join the Catholic Church and go on Saturdays.
@@London_miss234
-And lose your soul.
Yeah, no. Get out, Papist Schismatic.
Try to go on weekday feasts for liturgy and connect with a priest at your local parish to guide you through
It is the same problem with protestants or evangelicals becoming Catholic.
As a Protestant investigating orthodoxy with an open mind, I have to say I can see their point about young converts but also see it paired with a seeming lack of evangalism in the orthodoxy church. It is no wonder that someone coming from a tradition steeped in sharing the good news would seek to share the good news, even if it is detrimental, or at least seen to be so.
Much of the effective evangalism done by evangelicals is done by the lay person who don't have all the answers. It would make sense then that a oddly ethnocentric denomination used to growth coming through child bearing would insist on the priesthood doing most evangelistic efforts and even then only within the bounds of accepted thought. Since so many in the east have been persecuted for so long it could make sense that this precious belief system should only be shared if done perfectly so as to preserve it exactly as it has been protected but that is is why evangalism has been so difficult.
There is definitely some opening up that needs to be done mentally, not even traditions wise, for the Orthodox church it would seem so as to share the joy they have with others more openly rather than the under siege mentality even in the west where we are largely not in a meaningful way.
This was excellent
I think the convertitus he references could maybe be defined as -overzealous evangelical converts who upon discovering the "true church" finally can't understand why they are the only ones smart enough to figure it out and want to lambast others for being "dumb." I imagine it's a continuation of the spirit for example my Mom experienced as a Baptist from Church of Christ people who would outright just tell her she was going to hell because she was Baptist. It also probably stems from a byproduct of Sola Scriptura where a lot of people are in a race to have the "most accurate" translation they can when in reality I think all bibles are the same (relatively and ignoring Protestants leave out some books) within like a 98% sameness standard, though miss the spirit of the text sometimes for the literalism. Could probably also be summed up as don't miss the forest for the trees.
I know of several instances where an inquirer (or spouse of someone Orthodox) was visiting a church, but was totally turned off by jabs against evangelical christians they overheard at coffee hour.
"Protestants leave out some books" why do I hear this tossed around so much? I never hear the Catholic also leave out some books, but from your perspective, they do.
@@wilsonw.t.6878 true. I can't speak for the OP but I took it as "protestants focus a ton on exact details of the bible" but have this blindspot. I don't think the run-of-the-mill catholic convert has quite that particular focus.
I have seen many born into the Orthodox faith be just as zealous and cruel to outsiders. It's doesn't help there are tons of different jurisdictions in America alone. It's very confusing from an outsider looking in.
@Wilson W.T. It's most interesting that they're worried about which books are left out more than gaining a working knowledge of the ones that are already there! What seems to never occur to the biblically illiterate is that there's only one basic New Testament used by Catholics, Orthodox & Protestants; conservatives & liberals alike. And as Christians, that's where the bulk of our doctrine/theology comes from. I've been walking with my Lord for 26 years now & I still haven't read my KJV Apocrypha. There simply hasn't been any real need - as yet - for me to get into it. I could probably count on one hand how many times Orthodox authors - both clergy & laity - actually quote the Apocrypha in the Orthodox writings they've produced that grace the shelves of my personal Orthodox/Christian library.
I would agree with him that politics should be secondary, except he only pulls that card on those with certain politics and turns a blind eye and even supports others. He probably shouldn't point at the speck in the eyes of others when he's ignoring the log in his own.
who has he pulled that card on? I only know of one person (Abbot Tryphon), and it was after many instances and lots of space they gave. Is there a pattern with other people you can point to?
J Dyer is a decent fellow. I wonder why he's so upset by him. The guys only telling the truth. I don't think anyway he proclaimed himself as a spokesperson for the Orthodox Church. And it's the internet people can choose to listen to him or not. it's not like he's standing in front of a Pulpit and you have to see him whether you want to or not
He sees Dyer as his competitor. Sounds ugly but sadly it's the truth.
Fr Andrew Damick has unfortunately caused much scandal in the Church recently, namely by creating unnecessary, petty divisions in the Orthodox online sphere and undermining church unity amongst the faithful. Let us pray that he will come to his senses and cease such behaviour 🙏🏻
What are you referring to, in particular?
@@mattroorda2871 the organization he is apart of promotes people with beliefs outside the church such as Skittles and such,
I would advise you do your own research on the topic and come to your own opinion given the nature of this
@@mattroorda2871
Much of the details can be found here: ua-cam.com/video/cHiXI7E4Ui4/v-deo.html
@@mesmichael the “do your own research” crowd always thinks their right.
@@robpadgett27 everyone thinks they're right. Who really lives believing they're wrong? I don't think suggesting people do their own research is somehow uniquely arrogant. No more than people who throw biased links at you.
I have often wondered: are there those among the numbers of converts to Orthodoxy who are unknowing fascinated by the exotic motif, smells & bells, "foreign OTHERNESS" that attracts you .......the clear beauty of the church's interior, icons, etc.? Maybe the fact that it is NOT Catholic? The problem IS NOT ORTHODOXY OR IT'S TEACHINGS, but rather rests among the "here comes everybody" mindset of those entering. JUST MUSING.....no offense meant.
Fr Damian: Talks in a very general way about a generic category of content producers.
Everyone: Jay Dyer!
He may be talking about Jay, but his comments applies to everyone.
See my video why. He tried to have me not recieved into the church and publicly called me a “neo nasi” and “inc3L.”
Jay Dyer isn't Humble he's to boastful that's not Christian"I have ex Greek Orthodox friend's who got turned off by Jay Dyer like people. And they are now Catholic the Dracoules family. God bless 🙏🛐📰🗞️✍️ I like Gideon Lazar a ex Orthodox who's now a Catholic writer 🗞️📰✍️ good Writer Gideon Lazar 🙏😇🗝️🗝️
Orthodoxy has been around from the beginning of christianity although the word Orthodox, meaning the correct way, wasn't used until the great divorce of the church in 1054. Evangelists are so far removed from the original word. I'm curious about how people think they are saved based on just believing in Christ when in orthodoxy, the opposite mentality holds true. That we are not worthy no matter what we do.
When you read the New Testament, you are getting a clear glimpse into the early Church's "dirty laundry"!!!
I think I like this fellow.
We must be very careful allowing these converts to hold any positions in the faith without being tested for some time.
As a convert myself, I could not agree more!
What's more? "It's biblical", as you hear so many Evangelicals say.
Father Andrew is a treasure
I've been evangelized by Evangelicals, Lutherans, Baptist, Methodists, Pentecostals, Calvinists...you name it. Never by Orthodox. Hardly the "message" here presented by the Orthodox being the one true church.
Seems to me they are an exclusive church: join us and be part of the club.
Hardly what I see in Acts.
Methodists? We dont evangelize/prolysize and arent an evangelical religion 😂 methodists are the most middle of the road mind their own business christians you could ever find.
“Unfortunately, American Evangelicalism is an extraordinarily crude and fundamentalist religion. And so they’ve taken on their Palamism almost like a faith statement, just an unarguable set of propositions. And the state of Orthodoxy in America right now is absolutely catastrophic, precisely because it’s been so successful in gaining converts. What’s happened? Let me put it this way: Christianity never succeeded in America. Most Americans think of themselves as Christians. But the only religion in America that ever flourished was America. And it twists everything into its own image. And Orthodoxy now is going through the process Catholicism went through in earlier generations: it’s being Americanised. It’s being turned into a version of the American religion, which is about civil order, prosperity, capitalism, a moral code that is not premised on forgiveness so much as upon judgement. And the influx of former Evangelicals has made this something of a disastrous situation, because they bring with them very narrow habits of thought-the way they were taught to think about religion, about faith. And also, like converts everywhere, to everything, the version of the religion to which they converted they cling to more fiercely than people who were born Orthodox. If you are born Orthodox, it’s just a place where you live. For them it’s an ideology they’ve adopted, so it must be pure. And because they’re evangelicals, that also means simplified, inflexible and cruel.”
Источник: theoaesthetics.ru/david-bentley-hart-the-theologian-is-a-quiet-rioter.html interesting at the very least…
I was born and raised Greek Orthodox. David Bentley Hart is a heretic. He and those who follow his faux-intellectualized distortion of Orthodoxy in fact constitute the main source of the "convert" problem in the Orthodox Church, not pious evangelicals who, being abandoned as spiritual orphans by a crumbling edifice of liberal Protestantism, have zealously adopted the faith. This has little to do with any sociological dynamic unique to America, as the pernicious moral and theological decay these converts are fleeing is universal to Western Christianity as such, in whatever part of the world it may exist, and wherever its ethos has played a decisive role in shaping fundamental institutions. Your critique appears to reflect not so much an Orthodox phronema, but rather the indignant rhetoric of secular ideologues who push leftism and anarchism as an antidote to various social ills, real or imagined. As Orthodox Christians, we certainly would not place our duties to any secular government above the imperatives of our participation in the Life of the Church, but that is a far cry from the kind of anarchistic detachment from civic life implied by your views. There is nothing wrong with an Orthodox Christian harboring nationalistic feeling or in caring about the prosperity and good order of society. In fact St. Paul teachea that as Christians we should respect and humbly submit to civil authority, since such authority has ultimately been invested by God. That is why we offer up prayers for our leaders at every liturgy in the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy does not teach that it is our duty as Christians to critique capitalism and liberal forms of government, but to seek holiness through a life of repentance. We are to seek to change ourselves, not reform the world, with its ever developing dialectic of ideas, ideologies, and systems. Orthodoxy in essence is the purification of the heart, and has nothing to do with the smug condescension of situating oneself above society as a snooty critic, batting a contemptuous eye at the "vulgar" preoccupations of the "herd". You are grossly mislead in your view that there are various "versions" of Orthodoxy. That is false. There is only one Orthodox faith and praxis which is common to all Orthodox Churches throughout the world. The phenomenon you identify among those Orthodox who are born into the faith, yet who regard Orthodoxy primarily as an element of their native culture; that is quite simply the phenomenon of religious nominalism, which can hardly be said to be unique to cradle Orthodox Christians. There are plenty of Catholics and Protestants - and even Muslims, Jews, and Hindus -- for whom religion functions merely as a set of cultural totems, rituals, and traditions which are unthinkingly embraced as part of one's basic identity, often in the total absence of any concrete manifestations of authentic personal religious devotion. This is fundamentally a problem of modernity, not Orthodoxy, which is why your characterization fails on every level. Have a nice day.
@@ddawg6482 A bit hyperbolic, but I enjoyed reading your response, it was very well thought out. Also just to be clear, the article was interesting to me not my view so a bit too much was assumed.(Perhaps that’s my fault.lol) I am a convert from an extreme sect of fundamentalist to Greek Orthodox so the article resonated with me a bit concerning that particular context as I’m very well acquainted with the narrow habits of thought we are conditioned to have. But for the most part I agree with your statement. 👍 And also You’ll be happy to know I’m having a very nice day! God bless.
"It's just a place where you live" - otherwise known as being "nominal." That's not what Christianity is supposed to be. Christ told us what He would do with the lukewarm. And yes, it must be pure. Because the Church is either correct in its dogmas and its claims about itself, or it isn't. If it isn't, there's no point, is there? Unless of course, you see at as your culture, inextricably entwined with your ethnicity - in other words, "just a place where you live."
There are many wonderful, devout cradles. But unfortunately, there are also a significant number who see Orthodoxy as their property. It belongs to them by right of heredity, whether they actually believe in it or not. They considered people from non-traditionally-Orthodox ethnicities and backgrounds as undeserving of what they see as being only supposed to be for them and their kin. They like being part of the One, True, Church, and they want to keep it for themselves. However, the Orthodox Church being the One, True Universal Church and the Orthodox Church being only for people of certain ethnicities are mutually exclusive. Either it's the True Church, for everyone, or it's an ethnic religion like Judaism. It's either the Church or a Synagogue. It can't be both.
Do listen to Dyer's respone here (opening segment). Thanks: ua-cam.com/video/j6NQ7dZbMl8/v-deo.html
My advice to people seeking to know more about Orthodoxy would be to avoid AFR, sadly it’s moving in the same direction as the world
Right, random youtube channels are the best way to go for most types of learning...
@@jugsteve very boomer mindset of you...
I don't mean to be hostile but that's not a good argument friend
@@jugsteve Jay dyer just regurgitates what Orthodox scholars say. Also he has blessings from clergy. So your very unspecific critique doesn't add any value.
@@mesmichael I'm not a boomer. The notion that the best sources of information are found free and online by non-experts strikes me as a far weaker argument. Especially about Orthodox Christianity, a faith with a long, predominantly non-English language theological tradition.
My priest's advice is to avoid the internet as much as you are able to and participate as fully in your local parish as you are able to.
I've only listened to Jay Dyer for several months but I think the not so veiled attack on him is unnecessarily sharp. I realise that the comment was made off the cuff. To give him his due, the speaker probably regretted it later, but it still carries the danger of misleading people. Better not to have brought it up at all than to throw out a few vague hints that could refer to anything.
. . .
I myself was shocked at first by what I thought was gratuitously crude and sometimes nasty derision on Jay's part, but the more I listened to him the less of it I heard. It's actually pretty rare. I'm not trying to justify it. Nor do I question now whether it has its place. I don't know, though I suspect it draws the crowds which may be its intent. I am not an apologist nor a theologian and cannot assess what is or is not justified in the forum of free-for-all debate. But most of Jay's loudest critics are the ones he bested almost effortlessly in arguments they volunteered, without compulsion, to engage in, and in the aftermath they are bitter and afraid of him with ample reason. As to Jay's method or manners, deceptively reducing his mission to some bad examples borders on injustice. What more loving service can a man provide his brother than to approach him with the Truth and enlighten him unto salvation by leading him toward participation in the Graces of the Holy Mysteries? Of course, in trying to break though the husks of mental resistance, and to get people really thinking, sometimes some drama comes to aid, and sometimes really hurts. But what is Christianity if not a struggle, a continuum of being hurt? And there is always more to come. Maybe that is where the umileniye comes in, learning to smile though the tears and sometimes on account of them, and being ousted from the 'safe spaces' which exist only in illusions is a good thing. At any rate, Jay is excelling in the service he is offering and has acted with more actual effective charity than some of his critics have, who understandably don't like his style, and one sincerely feels for them, by measurable quanta. We can't always be the dove. We sometimes have to emulate the serpent in our foresight. By the way, I am Old Kalendarist, not Jay's favourite type of person, so I'm not a groupie. \
(Typos corrected.)
I just read this over and I have to revise it. I misspoke, but not deliberately. To be honest, I wasn't shocked at all, merely surprised and possibly amused or electrified. I didn't altogether approve of it, but I am almost always in favour of breaking boundaries to further frank expression. Admittedly it can go too far, and become petty or malicious, but who's to say where that is? It's almost always up to personal taste and opinion. And some people appreciate being called out forthrightly. It's not usually pleasant, but it helps to see where one has gone wrong and how wrong one has gone if one is really forced to stare at it, which one doesn't otherwise do.
I feel a similar phenomenon has happened in Catholicism.
Around 1962.
@@LadyMaria 😂
@@quayscenes Spirit of Vatican II 👍
Hopefully not trojan horses
Beware of proselytism.
He talks but don't say anything. That means the faith is bogus. Hiding the faith behind meaningless language.
Coming from Europe, this new orthodox hype seems suspicious to me. Usually in Eastern or Latin countries you keep the faith of your family and transmit it to your children (be it catholic or orthodox). That's why orthodoxy is very nationalist in Eastern Europe. You don't try to convert every body else, you just stick to the tradition of your fathers.
In North America, it looks more like a religion supermarket with lot of apologetics and some people changing church every 5 year. This kind of attitude toward religion is definitely not something you'll find in Eastern countries.
The trueness of the church has nothing to do with what Europe does
@@Agnosticuzumaki It's not what I said, please read before replying.
@Slavic Life I agree with what you say, it has to be spread. However, for some converts I am somewhat skeptical. If you see someone who was Buddhist, then evangelical, then catholic and finally orthodox, it raises some red flags imo...
@@nono-bt8gy you called new converts suspicious because you were unfamiliar with it. I'm aware.
@Slavic Life I attend weekly and read the fathers or scriptures almost daily, why?
I sincerely hope you are right and that once the hype is over the situation won't change too much (and as you say the 1-3 year probation would definitely help).
Jay Dyer fan boys….activate. 😂
Jay Dyer sure doesn’t act like a Christian the way he cusses. Kind of strange
I dont support liberalism and run AFR.
@@JayDyer maybe you should test yourself to see if you are on the faith. Is your heart right?
@@MrMfloor prelest.
@@JayDyer hey you should debate Matt Slick.
@@MrMfloor You should worry about your own state and not that of others. Matt 7:3.