@@scholagladiatoria so... No chance of getting that? Don't judge me I just finished my final exam for this semester and as much as I like programming I need a break,so a 45 minute video on rapiers and hema point systems, sounds just about right.
If quickly tapping an opponent with a foil or smallsword (like Arya does in the clip you mentioned) is scored equally to a solid cut from something like a saber or BHBS then we might as well call it lightsaber scoring, because (let's be honest) the only weapon you could be wielding that can move that quickly yet deal such damage with light taps is indeed a freaking lightsaber. We can make this work though and we can even still call it 'hee-muh'- we just make the acronym HEGMA (Historical Extra-Galactic Martial Arts) and tell everyone the 'G' is silent. There- I fixed it, problem solved! Seriously though, great video- I think anyone who is burdened with coming up with a scoring system that is intended to accurately reflect historical combat has an impossible task and is inevitably going to piss someone off and still encounter cases where the rules are being worked around or exploited (as other have mentioned).
We’ve been doing this for years. Thrust hits have a set point total. Cuts have a variable point total determined by blade profile, ie: point categories based on the width of the blade measured at half way between the cross and the point. .
What you are talking about is actually important. This take it's basis in game theory. For every set of rules, you find one (or a set of) optimal stable strategies (OSS) that end up winning more often than not. Now of course the question should be "how do we set up our rules in order that the OSS end being reflecting what we would like it to be", or in our case, historical combat. This is an important process to go through in order to have the game you really want.
@Baron VonsFuden it's not about just touching the others, that's dumb. It's about simulating battles, reconstructing old fencing. Thinking you have a real weapon in your hand and your life depends on it, that's the funny and interesting part about HEMA, well that's what i think at least
@@piniguin1 the thing is people on a battlefield didnt cared much about styles, if they had the chance to kill u by any method they would, and a big part of old fencing wasnt used to kill people, they werent stupid people knew when to stop
Which aspect should be historically accurate? Optimizing tournament weapons to take advantage of the rules IS historically accurate. People today taking advantage of the rules is no different from back then.
In SCA fencing we mainly based the rules on rapier, we do not allow taps or percussive cuts because safety and well that kind of cut wouldn't do much with a rapier or small sword. So we do tip cuts and push/draw cuts. We play limbs and kills so our scoring is vastly different than hema, but it works.
The question for HEMA rapier tournament is are we scorning the fight based on a duel? Is this duel to a touch, or first blood, or death? And while some rapiers are designed to cut, the styles are more point focused,and thrust based.. as I am sure you know,the evolution of rapier is thinner and lighter, and less cut based, as. More and more of the military sword are retired for more lighter dueling blades. So the heavier cutting blades were the military swords with more fashionable hilts on them. These in themselves are still “rapiers” but I believe they were not used for any of the more “dueling” styles we see in Fabris, or giangte. These swords, like the Sabre, were for military melee use, upgraded to be fashionable to wear.
Been doing rapier since 2016 and helped marshal one tourney. So I'm not an expert in the matter, but here's my two cents. I like the idea of rapier blades dictating how much a cut should be worth. From helping with a tourney though, I can imagine that would bring up its own difficulties when keeping track of it. The rapier cut that bothers me isn't necessarily from light blades, but light cuts. I've done freeplay against some people from SCA and their cuts always seem to be at a 45 degree or less. Snap cuts from a rapier don't seem like they should count and can be frustrating to fight against. To put it in longsword terms, imagine an opponent hitting with their flat and insisting that it was a good cut. I'm not arguing that there needs to be force behind a cut to count in freeplay or tournaments, but there should at least be potential for a real cut happening. Whether that come from a rule dictating a minimum angle to hit or that there needs to by a scything action (which you can read about in Capo Ferro).
@Aaron New The problem with hitting someone with the flat of the sword is, that the sword would flex in this direction. And because it would flex, a big amount of the blunt force would be lost.
@Aaron New Oh and I forgot to mention that the balance of swords are generally tend to be near the hilt. For blunt impact you would use the murderstroke. The Gladius is pretty light and the material the romans had were softer than the steel from the medieval and espacially the later medieval ages.
@Aaron New Nick here, the slap of a heavy fencing rapier (schlager, hanwei practical etc.) even at force is substantially less impact then the edge, and significantly less than a thrust. Bare skin, you get a slight reddening usually.
I have to comment as history seems to repeat itself, I can 'hear' George Silver raging against the untrue fight, and the rallying cries against Spanish long bladed, cuphilted rapiers wielded in Destreza techniques. I find it fascinating as about a decade and a half ago this swept through the SCA as a sort of arms race. On I, with my beloved 34in schlager was greatly out paced. (I digress). I found a delightful solution after founding the HFG: a tourney where each bout started with weapons sheathed.
Take it from the spanish who were the best swordsmen of their time, verdadera destreza was for dueling but that did not stopped them from breaking the rules and using destreza vulgar techniques
Yeah, as soon as HEMA tournies started to become the prime subject, I figured equipment would eventually just evolve into whatever were best optimized for whatever rulesets became the norm.
@@ME-hm7zm optimal equipment also dependent on the competitor as well. A larger stronger person will be able to handle a longer heavier blade. If his fighting style emphasizes beats and hard constrainment more than others, a heavier weapon might be worth the tradeoff in speed, or at least no worse.
I know this is an older video but I find it exciting that the HEMA competition scene is going through the organization and standardisation phase other Martial Arts or combat sports like Olympic fencing Karate or Judo or BJJ are going through. At the end of the day it's about comparing the fencing skill and not about "who has more money to buy the better sword" . I am a life long athlete and Martial Artist and am excited to see what the future brings for this wonderful Martial Art
We could add damage numbers to swords and health points to fencers: Rapier -2hp thrust -1hp cut (cup hilt -5hp on wearer) Sabre -2hp thrust -3hp cut (+2 to pluckiness if it's British)
Matt, please do more rapier videos! I posted a question, maybe a year ago asking if a rapier could feasibly thrust through mail. It's more of a fantasy concern than historical to be sure, but I'd really like to hear your response.
Yes a rapier could thrust through mail, though mail could also resist it, depending on the type/quality of mail and the nature of the rapier and thrust given. Mail continued to be used in the time of the rapier, including for gloves.
I agree with what you said. My old fencing master does have some XVIII century short swords, we call them espadins de corte, and they do have edges. But, like you said they would not cut as deeply as longswords or sabres. However, soft tissue would be easy enough, so some points would be awarded. It would be hard to fight with a ripped muscle, an open artery or other soft tissue injuries... Even being tapped on the head can be unpleasant enough. Having blood getting in your eyes can't be represented in a tournament... But it would affect you performance. So... Point. Here in Portugal at some point there where rules made by the king to limit the length of dueling rapiers. Again, even though they were thin at the tip, the edge could still cut through soft tissue; I mean... Even a sharp tips can do that let alone a sharp edge, even if with little mass. And we don't need to cut through bone to kill or seriously injure a person with a cut. Even superficial cut can be a nag, imagine a cut made purposefully with a sharp steal instrument aided by a fast moving very sharp steel object, backed with some bodyweight application. It's always hard to fit the rules to what reality would be like because of all the variables. In HEMA you allow for afterblows within a larger time frame than in modern fencing. However, although those could happen, other times a mere counter to the weapon's arm could completely stop an stack and prevent any other, just to give an example. There can hardly be overall concensus unless everyone recognizes no set of rules can absolutely a account for every variables. Even the periodic changing of rules will just result in different adaptations to the rules of the different games. But that is what Is beautiful. We take techniques that were ment to kill and turn them into a game (or into an artistic expression when talking about artistic fencing and stage fighting in general). Neither is real nor should it be, for people died when it was real. They serve different valid purposes. So... I believe you shouldn't fret too much about the pontuation...any set of rules will always reflect a determined set of possible situations in detriment of other that were also possible. Like in the case of attacks to the hand that would sometimes stop attacked and, although not usually fatal by themselves, could leave the opponent opened to a death stroke. Anyway... Keep up the good work! Love you videos. Even though I've been working with swords and other weapon's since I was there in 1983, and I work with modern, artistic and HEMA fencing as well as several Oriental martial arts, I still sometimes manage to learn something from you. 😀 Cheers!
Your analysis of fast moving blades or slow moving ones and heavy blades or light ones vs. light and heavy/dense objects is spot on IMO, and explains a lot of what I had to intuit out manually every time with "X blade vs Y target." It's a good general rule/explanation. I think HEMA scoring could award points 1-5 for how good each weapon is at each task, rate each for it's cut and thrust damage etc. If a katana and tulwar are great cutters, they count for 4 points or 5 on a cut but only 3 on a thrust, while rapiers thrust for 5 points and cut for 2 etc.
Soundly argued. Difficult to formalise in a way that will please all, of course, which is a great argument against a fixed set of rules for all tournaments. If one treats competition as another way of honing skill, rather than the goal of training, then that's all the better...
100% agree. I have been using dark wood bated rapier blades for 15 years. Switching to a Castile rapier simulator has been shockingly different. The cuts are considerably easier but I can't see how they would injure anywhere other than the most sensitive areas of the body. Whereas the bated rapier blade would easily injure a person with a cut even if they are more difficult to pull off.
Unfortunately, when it comes to competitions, there always seems to be some people who are more interested in winning than anything else. Those folks often find the best way to exploit the rules for optimal advantage, even if it is unsportsmanlike, violates the spirit of the competition and isn't fun for anyone involved. And because those people have exploited a loophole, anyone else who wants to have a fair chance has to do the same thing just to be on a level playing field. It's a great way to suck the joy out of something which should be fun. Don't be that guy.
Doesn't even have to be full blown competition. In airsoft one has to endure those with guns feeding from compressed air tanks, shooting at a 1700 RPM, with the biggest magazine available, making the gun an equivelant of a laser beam rifle. Or running full sprint around with plastic SMG's holding 300 round magazines.
A game is a game. It needs to have a precise, agreed-upon set of rules, and as long as you stay within their bounds, you're playing fairly. If you think that some additional rules need to be introduced to "cover loopholes", you should negotiate about that with other players, not condemn them for playing the game in a way you don't approve of. If your rules suck and are easily exploited, it's your fault, not anybody else's. Read David Sirlin's "Playing to Win" on his website ( www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win ), he explains how games work in the real world and how to keep them fun.
@@p_serdiuk I agree, having a good set of rules is important. I've dabbled in game design myself, and looking for ways to break the rules is an important part of design. But, when crafting rules, there can be a point where to try to cover every possible contingency is impossible, or would make the rules either highly restrictive or overly long and complex. At some point, you have to rely on the players to exercise some common sense and sportsmanlike conduct. For example, the rules for Monopoly don't explicitly state that I can't punch another player in the face and steal all their money and property. Does that mean it would be playing fairly to do so? According to your argument, it would be. Unless you are gambling for money, the only purpose of a game is to have fun. If you are doing things to win which ruin the fun for others, even if you are technically within the rules, than you're being a jerk. I'd rather have fun losing than win by being a jerk. But, maybe that's just me :)
@@calamusgladiofortior2814 In most games, you are only allowed to do what the game rules tell you to do, you are not allowed to do anything else, so there is no point in trying to explicitly forbid certain behavior unless it arises too frequently. There is fun to be had in breaking rules and countering broken moves, unless the game degrades to a single overpowered move. And it is very well possible to design all sorts of games that don't degrade in this way. A counter-example to Monopoly is Munchkin. Munchkin encourages you to cheat and break rules, and it's still extremely fun, because the game itself is well-designed.
@@p_serdiuk Have you played Monopoly? In certain circles it could definitely degenerate into fisticuffs ;) But as for HEMA, it's supposed to be recreating actual combat as close as possible while not maiming anybody. So purposefully doing something which would never work in real life, but counts because of the necessary abstractions of the sport, violates the spirit of what HEMA is about. The "sport" side of HEMA is only a teaching tool, not the end goal. I felt the same way about foil fencing, back when I did it. I hated the Flick, because it would never work with a real sword blade. But fencing is governed internationally, and the Flick (whipping the blade so the point touches on your opponent's back or shoulder) is considered legal, so what can you do?
As a rapier lover, I wholeheartedly agree. Not acknowledging for the different capacity of different rapiers (or swords, in general) would turn HEMA into sport fencing 2.0. And that would be... Utterly ridiculous, at the very least.
@Scholagladiatoria Brilliant video & fantastic idea to encourage realism in competition. Thanks for all of your work. Btw, as a brand new practitioner, I would love for you to do a video comparing the differences between fencing styles such as saber, rapier, and small sword. Cheers!
It is something to reflect on. How about using a sliding scale of points? Say 5 points for a solid thrust which would be fatal for any type sword, then 4 points for a solid cut with a sabre type blade, 3 points for a cut & thrust type rapier blade that cuts a bit weaker than a sabre blade, and say 1 or 2 points for a very narrow rapier blade for a push or draw type cut, but no points for slight tap cut for a blade that can't really cut. Perhaps before the tournament have tests for similar swords which are sharpened to see how well they can thrust through clothes and how well they can cut say through straw mats say. Basically agree beforehand which swords can actually do damage thrusting and which swords on a sliding scale can do actually do damage with cuts. Obviously not all swords are equal but that is the point. That way you avoid rapier becoming an epee/foil with a fancy hilt.
Try a topic where duelist used different swords one on one; on foot, and which sword was the most consistent when it came to victory? Perhaps a follow-up to your, "which sword is best in a dual to the death" video.
There is a sizeable population within WMA that wants to turn it into Olympic sport fencing with longsword, or Olympic sport fencing with parrying dagger...etc.
we have a single sword (generally rapier and sidesword) tournament where swords are categorized by length and width, which determined points value in the cut. Each fighter declares what category blade they had before entering the arena, informing the scorer so that once points are calculated at the end of the fight a correct point value could be scored. It worked well to draw out the individual properties of the swords and emphasise a fighting style that matched the properties of the blades they used. The lightest and thinnest blades literally couldn't score on the cut at all.
I have seen you handle the "English Coin Hilt Rapier" (my terminology for it, since I do not know a specific name for that style hilt) in several videos now and it is gorgeous. I am very very interested in who/what company makes that, specifically the blade. It has a very pleasing looking profile and most interesting to me the large tip. Also, a sincere thank you for all the great content you have put out over the years.
I remember reading something about the nobles wearing ever increasing lengths of swords and 'ruffles', so much so, the power that was had to put an upper limit on both.
They are both subjective names used by modern people, so potentially no difference. A rapier tends to imply a longer sword though, while a sidesword is normally more or less a broadsword.
wouldn't hits to the face from any rapier cut the cheeks and nose, as its soft tissue, with dire effects? Or is the idea that even though it would cut, the cut from a saber to the face would be so much worst?
I think something that might help in tournaments is to have people focus on trying to get a hit on a particular part of the body without getting hit. For example, if I was running a Rapier tournament I would say only thrusts are valid and only thrusts to the head or center of the body would count. It would not only give people a greater focus on how to attack or defend, but also make scoring easier. In addition, it would also discourage annoying things like hand sniping or trying to get quick taps or the like. I realize this might not be completely historically accurate, I openly admit my knowledge on Rapier is limited, but at least from the tournament perspective it would make things a bit easier for training and judging.
I don’t even bother with cuts to the torso with my rapier. It’s so narrow that I use a 22 long rifle shell on the end to help blunt it. It’s a stabbing weapon that can certainly disable a limb and whack someone in the head.
When an element of competition is introduced to any rules-based activity, be it business or sport, people suddenly become very good at adhering to the "Letter of the Law" whilst ignoring (or murdering in its sleep) the "Spirit of the Law". This is especially true of sports (like fencing) where competitors can bring their own, modifiable equipment to a competition. As a veteran of sport sabre fencing and a complete HEMA noob, I would hope that for HEMA, "Spirit of the Law" is held in as high regard as "Letter of the Law". In the context of HEMA, this entails respect for the art form, respect for one's instructors, peers and opponents, respect for tournament/sparring rules, respect for historical and archaeological sources, etc. It's not enough to follow a set rules. You should also try to 'live' them. These ideas should be a basic component of training. More so than the 'winner' of a tournament, I feel awe and respect for the fencer who holds up his or her arm in an important bout to acknowledge an opponent's hit, even when the presiding judges have missed it. To me, that embodies love for the "Spirit of the Law".
Holding up your hand isn't just the "spirit of the law", it's just plain sportsmanship and should always be respected in any sport (I consider a HEMA tournament a sport, even though I admire it's attempt for historical accuracy). Although I do get your general point and agree with it. It's useful to make RAI and RAW, or the spirit and letter of the law as you call it respectively, as close to each other as possible. But in the end the practice of the sport should be as historical as possible. Particularly since most matches are basically exclusively for honour and fun, why try to 'game' the system? Playing the metagame seems pretty counterproductive to the whole idea of HEMA doesn't it? Anyhow it seems inevitable in practice, since some people tend to misunderstand the goal of a sport (spoiler alert: it isn't to win and never has been, in any sport ever, particularly in a sport that is as much a form of practical history as it is a sport).
for me a solution for tournaments that allow long and light rapiers with blades that would cut deeply is to either to score only thrusts or to prioritize thrusts much more than cuts (like on swordfish). in this option people focus more on thrusts (which is ok with this type of weapon)
I think we are confusing cut with hack. I sharpen my own knives/blades, they are razor sharp. If I had that sort of edge on a rapier, I would not need much weight or effort to CUT. It's really scary when you think about it. I think this speaks a bit to the metal technology of the day. Softer/brittle metallurgy would not hold a thin edge very well, so the styles best used would be to pierce and/or hack with mass. As metallurgy improves, strong, thin blades would hold a very keen edge that would require little mass and effort to cut.
Sadly in Olympic fencing this ship has sailed - with the rules being dictated by the equipment (most evident in the flick). The majority of Olympic fencers no longer seem to regard it as a martial art and seem quite content with these mechanical accidents dictating the form. But people get into HEMA with the idea of simulating the real combat skills I imagine. So it makes sense to keep updating the rules to keep giving a closer experience to real fighting in those weapon traditions.
I've done sport fencing for 7 years, and it hasn't 'set the sail', it has never even tried to resemble actual combat. It's a sport and resembles a duel as much as rugby resembles a battle, which is absolutely fine. I don't know anyone who has ever considered sport fencing to be a resemblance of an actual duel. I would argue it's still a martial arts, just like judo is considered one; it's origin is martial and it has a lot of martial concepts, such as tempo, distance and footwork that are central to the sport.
@@jaspermooren5883 I've also done it. Maybe the way you learn it now hides the martial art connection. But when I learned sport foil the emphasis on hitting the central mass to guarantee a disabling strike, with the flexible foil making sure that a bent blade visible to corner judges would mean sufficient penetration to disable, the right of way to train out a tendency to attack into an attack and potentially hit your opponent at lethal cost to yourself, and the emphasis on attacking with a straight arm to discourage your opponent from attacking into your attack with potentially the same result were all incredibly useful training rules to ensure that you could come out of a one on one smallsword fight both the victor and alive. It's a little hard to see an argument against that. Epée was purely a game. And sabre was rendered useless by a training weapon completely unsuitable to teach the use of the actual weapon. But foil fencing as I was taught it taught excellent habits and skills for one vs. one smallsword combat.
Surely 'can cut' or 'can't cut' is also very much relative to what you might be hoping to cut through? Being able to cut through an exposed neck to the jugular vein is a very dangerous and useful ability, and a lot less challenging than slicing through the chest of a tough jacket.
same applies in saber tourneys, some shows up with italian dueling sabers with was a lighter basket hilt, while some with gynasium bowl hilts , some with military types stirrup/bars, the weight, length and protection varies ...
Idea: you can enter with saber or rapier or whatever, but you must use a "tournament rapier" or suchlike, provided by the sponsors, not any random mutation you bring. Spendy, but would be fairer.
Very interesting video Matt. To what extent do you think this could also apply to the use of (relatively) narrow and straight Victorian-style sabres in competition, as opposed to the broader and more curved styles of the Georgian era and earlier?
Perhaps it could be dealt with in that way: each cut is a point, each thrust is a point, yet the nature of the cut/thrust is writen in the score. I mean, sc and st for saber cut and saber thrust for instance, or rc and rt with the rapier. Therefore, if both rapier user and saber user scores a cut and the dual ends there, instead of equalty, the saber get the victory, and if they both score a thrust, the rapier get victory. If each score the other type of hit (cut or thrust) than the other, they got equalty because either they scored both the advantageous hit, or both the disadvantageous hit . Howether, if one scores more hit than the other, the more hits scored still get victory. Does it looks like a good way to deal the issue?
Your point about cuts is indeed important, but personally, i think that any rapier tournament should adopt a rule implying that any thrust to the torso, or face, should count as instant elimination. Even with doubles (especially regarding doubles!), both should be eliminated. That's the only way you can simulate how dangerous a rapier fight really can be. Without a rule of this type, it's just sport fencing with triple-weight epees.
While most torso thrust wounds would be ultimately fatal in historical context they aren't instantly incapacitating . This is one of the reasons cut and thrust swords were the usual military choice until advancement in firearms technology put edged weapons into a sideline niche role.
Ironically, making one thrust an instakill is exactly what leads to Olympic epee rules, with suicidal charges and no thought for what happens next. People don't instantly stop moving when they've been run through the body, they often keep fighting until they are dead. Same with being shot.
I think the fear of being eliminated would push the fencers to keep more binds on the opponents blade, and a better technique. I'm sure that in a civil environment a full thrust to the torso (wothout a quick afterblow in the next seconds) would most times put the opponent out of play.
@@scholagladiatoria "suicidal charges and no thought for what happens next" - isn't that exactly how some people actually fought, though? And often won by doing so, especially against a smaller, weaker, slower, inexperienced or nervous opponent. Certainly many battle and duel accounts suggest this, whether out of fanaticism or in some cases when they have been provoked out of initial caution. And a double kill or at any rate serious injuries to both was evidently not all that uncommon a result. Presumably if you had a habit of doing so, if you fought enough fights then unless you were very lucky you would eventually come up against someone good enough, quick enough or lucky enough to make you pay the ultimate price for it. But doubtless some of the great heroes of history were big strong quick men who did this and got away with it. As to whether it makes for a good sporting spectacle, that's another question. Presumably if you are good and you know your opponent has a habit of charging in suicidally then you can exploit it.
I was watching 2019 swordfish finals. I'm not into the judging. Slow motion cameras should be used and the judges should have to review the footage before deciding who wins or gets a point. I know this would take longer but if you want something done right.....
May I make a suggestion? Nowadays, it is more than feasible to make your own force-meter. I am talking about a small device and sensor you could place at the end of your sword, and it will give you an accurate estimation of the impact force. I am not sure whether that is all too interesting to you but it would make the judging of impact force objective. There is a very active youtube community behind this hobby. These youtubers would probably love to collaborate with you. I can suggest Andreas Spiess. He is a very nice Swiss man (shipping cost is lower!) who is always looking for new ways to make his youtube audience happy. Oh, and he is an engineer who understands physics.
Would it be possible to agree upon a series of assessments of the blade chosen, and change the points given for different strikes accordingly? Alternately could the choice of blade be considered part of the participants' skill and knowledge? I'm thinking of someone who uses a nimble thrust optimized blade, for an opponent they know is more vulnerable to that style, but chooses a more cut optimized blade, for an opponent they have observed leaves themselves open to that kind of strike.
I'd be interested to see more about diff types of rapier blades -- as represented by practice swords. Most of them, from Castille Armory to budget Hanwei rapiers, seem to have very narrow blades though cross sections defer. Be nice to see a practice blade representative of the several blade types...
The modern ~400g sabre (of which more than half the mass is the hilt) makes no real sense. A blade that light and quick would never be used as a cutting weapon.
I would argue that it makes total sense, since it has never even tried to resemble an actual duel, it's a sport. All the rules aren't designed with combat in mind but with how easy they are to adjudicate and to make the sport interesting and fun (such as right of way, which makes it harder to adjudicate, but way more interesting, but is also quite unhistorical, obviously). Fencing represents the duel like rugby represents a battle; only in its origin. The weapons are designed to be as safe as possible, so that less protective (therefore much cheaper) gear is required, which means that fatigue is less of an issue (which it already is due to the high amount of bouts during a standard fencing tournament) and the sport is more accessible. It's just where the priorities are and for over 50 years at the FIE they don't lie at historical accuracy, which is absolutely fine, if you want that, do HEMA :). Btw I agree that HEMA tournaments should have scoring systems that make the rules be as close as 'real life' as possible, it's HISTORICAL european martial arts after all. Sport fencing is just a sport. For some weird reason only HEMA people seem to put sport fencing in a combat context, I've never spoken to any fencer that conciders sport fencing as a form of combat. It's a martial art, but in the same way that judo is one, it has fundamental principles of combat such as tempo and distance, but it doesn't resemble an actual duel and doesn't try to. Hitting with the flat is a point in sabre for the sole reason that it makes the electrical equipment cheaper and more reliable, I think that rests my case...
I think thrust only points should be scored for rapier tournaments. It would make the fencing bouts easier to score and will bring out better quality and more entertaining fencing.
Hey Matt, idea. State your desired conclusion at the start then make your case. If you started with I think rapier tournaments should score differently for the cuts of specific blades, then made your arguments that would make your videos flow a bit better
Prehaps limit rapiers to draw cuts only, to make them match the effectiveness of a sabre cut points wise? I do SCA (don’t really have any HEMA in my parts) and that’s how we deal with cuts in rapier, primarily. We just did a tournament the other day (I’m new so I was dead last, 0-2-4 in three rounds)... Matt you mention you have a rather long rapier, and personally I prefer shorter blades on my swords, what would be the maximum length for an early short sword / later transitional rapier? I’m thinking of maybe getting a 36-38 in blade for my primary practice sword...
When you've used these rules, have you had disputes regarding the performance of someone's favorite weapon? It seems like it would put the judges in the crosshairs of anyone with an axe to grind.
I assumed the different points for different weapons were set in the rules beforehand? Of course people will always argue about the rules, they do that with any set of rules in any situation. In case of the ruleset called the law the even built a parlement to argue over the rules :P. However if the rules are set beforehand, how is the judge in the 'crosshair'? Then it's just the rules they have to follow as much as you have to right?
I kept thinking "why not just subcategorize rapiers?" until you mentioned you did just that. But maybe also take into consideration the style of the fighter, i.e. Destreza both uses longer blades and hounds the head and neck with cuts that are meant to be incapacitating. Those cuts should be more valuable than those of schools that adopted the longer blade lenght but with square or triangle section blades.
Interesting dilemma. I have a fencing background but am interested in HEMA. Ironically, I think that making the scoring rule adjustments you suggest would lead you down the evolutionary road that olympic fencing has gone down. As HEMA grows more popular and tournaments grow larger and more mainstream you will invariably see participants who are not as fanatical about the martial aspect so much as the sporting one. Over time these and other competitors would naturally gravitate to the lighter, more flickable sword that would give them a competitive advantage at the cost of realism. If, on the other hand, the rules were changed to allow only the heavier style of rapiers, you would potentially stifle innovation in equipment and development of new techniques. It's a difficult balancing act staying true to a sport's roots vs embracing innovation. Olympic fencing and Formula 1 are some great examples.
Maybe rule makers can set requirements on type of rapier and separate the different types into different events. So the heavier more historically accurate rapiers go against its equal, and same thing with the lighter and perhaps more floppier ones.
Makes sense. Historically a variety of rapiers as well as other contemporary swords were used against each other with a reasonable equality of effectiveness so one type should not dominate HEMA tournaments. Perhaps there should be two or three classes of rapiers with different scoring and maybe a separate open rapier competition for tournament optimised designs. It all boils down to counting martial blows instead of sport touches.
yes of corse a sword type should have performace related points, same as you have in gaming systems, a slow heavy weapon will do more damage vs a fast light sword doing less damage per hit therefore as you have the knowledge of sword types and combat with you should take into consideration the blade and attribute the points per hit
But is a rapier and sabre really similar in cross-section and size for the thrust? Not even the ones you were holding up had similar blade widths at the point.
It balances out, because whatever little bit of extra width you have will reduce the depth of wound. So you might create a slightly wider hole, but it will be less deep. In approximation, the results on average seem about the same. Cuts however are drastically different.
@scholagladiatoria: I think a fascinating topic would be a comparaison between a cut&thrust rapier VS. a smallsword with triangular section of the SAME LENGTH, say 90cm blade (like modern épée & foils). I think that such small rapiers and such big smallswords (especially colichemardes) did exist in the transitional era. I think that at equal length, the triangular section makes the thrust a HUGE advantage. Yet, some cutting capacity should not be overlooked. Sir Easton, what say you?
Maybe it would be good to have a test cut, in say balistic gel before. If you don´t get any damage to it with a cut. you don´t get any points for a cut.
Matt, I love your style and your work and listening to you has dragged into the sharp and pointy world. What is your opinion of the heavy rapiers of the the SCA? I was trying to find a local HEMA group and found them instead. I was going to walk away but they're really friendly and have really amazing fancy hats.
SCA rapier fencing is certainly a good way to start but it’s not really as historically accurate as some HEMA classes. However not all HEMA is particularly realistic either.....
More importantly; Is a Highcastle Rapier more effective than A Krondor Rapier or a Darkmoor Rapier? And how would they fare against the Keshian Inner Legions?
This is the one of biggest problems in HEMA. Referees score the rapier fights as if they are lightsabers. Most of valid longsword hits don't even cut through fabric in real combat.
My problem is that they don't use a actually rapier, when we see tournaments they use a tin rapier which makes the use of skill less necessary and the speed more deciding. A actually rapier is longer and heavier which you can't maneuver that easily without technique and skill unlike the wiggling stick they use, this is why "La Verdadera Destreza" focused on math and geometry, a actually rapier can be used to block attacks from a longsword although i doubt it can block a greatsword tho but yes the rapier can parry and counter attack and if a master of the blade that knows how to handle the rapier good they could do a accurate trust through the small openings on armor but every weapon has their pros and cons and it always comes down to who is the best fighter.
Hi Matt, I'm a big fan of you and your channel. It's my dream to study HEMA, though I live in Japan in a city where there is no such thing. I did study sport saber fencing in college years ago. BTW, I am designing a TRPG... and I use your videos as inspiration for my design. My understanding is that you are not a role-player and do not have interest in that. But I would like to make a suggestion. I feel that you should find some good role-players - people who play D&D or Runequest (that's an old RPG, more popular in Europe, which came out shortly after D&D) who like HEMA. Sit down with them and hash out some rules, then iterate on the design to make it work-able and eliminate exploits. That's what RPG game designers do. Off the top of my head, you can create a letter classification system - say 4 tiers. A - thrust only weapons, B - thrust and light cut, C - thrust and power cut, D. cut-only. Then the real-world technical specs match to meet the class. Rapiers under X inches length with over X weight can be in group B. To assist you in the categorizing task, you can plot weight and length in a normal distribution graph (so... find an RPG nerd who like HEMA and knows statistics) to come up with normal weight/length for each class and define acceptable variance. You can then have hit target mods to the class structure. B-class (light cut) do standard points in cuts neck and head only. Full cuts negate counter-attack point scoring, as do thrusts to head. Some scoring mechanic that increases the incentive to protect ones' self from after-hit counters. And then, publish the rules. Make videos about the rules. I think you are quite influential; if anyone can push for rules-standardization it would be you.
This brings up a broader problem in HEMA scoring. Not all cuts are equal, even with the same weapon. A light tap with a saber isn't going to have the same effect as a strong impact. The same is true for thrusts. But there's no way to accurately score wounds in tournaments. There winds up being an advantage in delivering quick light attacks that wouldn't create serious wounds in real life. I don't know any way around this.
Imagine having this information on how too long rapiers / foils don't cut. Then parrying and grabbing your opponents blade and absolutely wrecking their, then explaining yourself to your opponent & referee's.
This seems like a hard scoring system to implement, espeacilly since in many of the bouts I've seen the judges and refs already have trouble awarding points.
As concise as possible.
Is a 13 minute video.
Classic Matt Easton
This was edited down from the 45 minute original.
@@scholagladiatoria so... No chance of getting that?
Don't judge me I just finished my final exam for this semester and as much as I like programming I need a break,so a 45 minute video on rapiers and hema point systems, sounds just about right.
13 minutes is extremely concise on such a complex topic.
@@scholagladiatoria christ.
Concise in Matt Easton Context it is.- Yoda
They should make a tournament where if you get killed you are disqualified from the tournament.
I'm going to screenshot this comment. Thank you.
Sarah Black same
Being killed is really bloody rude, so yeah.
@@scholagladiatoria So that would be a no go in Canada then?
Don’t they call that kind of tournament a duel?
If quickly tapping an opponent with a foil or smallsword (like Arya does in the clip you mentioned) is scored equally to a solid cut from something like a saber or BHBS then we might as well call it lightsaber scoring, because (let's be honest) the only weapon you could be wielding that can move that quickly yet deal such damage with light taps is indeed a freaking lightsaber. We can make this work though and we can even still call it 'hee-muh'- we just make the acronym HEGMA (Historical Extra-Galactic Martial Arts) and tell everyone the 'G' is silent. There- I fixed it, problem solved!
Seriously though, great video- I think anyone who is burdened with coming up with a scoring system that is intended to accurately reflect historical combat has an impossible task and is inevitably going to piss someone off and still encounter cases where the rules are being worked around or exploited (as other have mentioned).
Hegma ... :'D
The cure for the 'lightsaber rules', is to pull an 'Indiana Jones', and whip out your trusty sidearm.
We’ve been doing this for years. Thrust hits have a set point total. Cuts have a variable point total determined by blade profile, ie: point categories based on the width of the blade measured at half way between the cross and the point. .
What you are talking about is actually important. This take it's basis in game theory.
For every set of rules, you find one (or a set of) optimal stable strategies (OSS) that end up winning more often than not.
Now of course the question should be "how do we set up our rules in order that the OSS end being reflecting what we would like it to be", or in our case, historical combat.
This is an important process to go through in order to have the game you really want.
Really helpful. Articulate concerns I had that I wasn't able to put a finger on.
I totally agree you. HEMA should be historicaly accurate
@Baron VonsFuden it's not about just touching the others, that's dumb. It's about simulating battles, reconstructing old fencing. Thinking you have a real weapon in your hand and your life depends on it, that's the funny and interesting part about HEMA, well that's what i think at least
@@piniguin1 the thing is people on a battlefield didnt cared much about styles, if they had the chance to kill u by any method they would, and a big part of old fencing wasnt used to kill people, they werent stupid people knew when to stop
Which aspect should be historically accurate? Optimizing tournament weapons to take advantage of the rules IS historically accurate. People today taking advantage of the rules is no different from back then.
In SCA fencing we mainly based the rules on rapier, we do not allow taps or percussive cuts because safety and well that kind of cut wouldn't do much with a rapier or small sword. So we do tip cuts and push/draw cuts. We play limbs and kills so our scoring is vastly different than hema, but it works.
The question for HEMA rapier tournament is are we scorning the fight based on a duel? Is this duel to a touch, or first blood, or death? And while some rapiers are designed to cut, the styles are more point focused,and thrust based.. as I am sure you know,the evolution of rapier is thinner and lighter, and less cut based, as. More and more of the military sword are retired for more lighter dueling blades.
So the heavier cutting blades were the military swords with more fashionable hilts on them. These in themselves are still “rapiers” but I believe they were not used for any of the more “dueling” styles we see in Fabris, or giangte. These swords, like the Sabre, were for military melee use, upgraded to be fashionable to wear.
Been doing rapier since 2016 and helped marshal one tourney. So I'm not an expert in the matter, but here's my two cents.
I like the idea of rapier blades dictating how much a cut should be worth. From helping with a tourney though, I can imagine that would bring up its own difficulties when keeping track of it. The rapier cut that bothers me isn't necessarily from light blades, but light cuts. I've done freeplay against some people from SCA and their cuts always seem to be at a 45 degree or less.
Snap cuts from a rapier don't seem like they should count and can be frustrating to fight against. To put it in longsword terms, imagine an opponent hitting with their flat and insisting that it was a good cut. I'm not arguing that there needs to be force behind a cut to count in freeplay or tournaments, but there should at least be potential for a real cut happening. Whether that come from a rule dictating a minimum angle to hit or that there needs to by a scything action (which you can read about in Capo Ferro).
@Aaron New
The problem with hitting someone with the flat of the sword is, that the sword would flex in this direction. And because it would flex, a big amount of the blunt force would be lost.
@Aaron New
Oh and I forgot to mention that the balance of swords are generally tend to be near the hilt. For blunt impact you would use the murderstroke.
The Gladius is pretty light and the material the romans had were softer than the steel from the medieval and espacially the later medieval ages.
@Aaron New Nick here, the slap of a heavy fencing rapier (schlager, hanwei practical etc.) even at force is substantially less impact then the edge, and significantly less than a thrust. Bare skin, you get a slight reddening usually.
I have to comment as history seems to repeat itself, I can 'hear' George Silver raging against the untrue fight, and the rallying cries against Spanish long bladed, cuphilted rapiers wielded in Destreza techniques.
I find it fascinating as about a decade and a half ago this swept through the SCA as a sort of arms race. On I, with my beloved 34in schlager was greatly out paced. (I digress).
I found a delightful solution after founding the HFG: a tourney where each bout started with weapons sheathed.
@Aaron New Try pinking with your rapier when your innards are hanging from your cut-open belly.
As soon as u write rules people exploit them
Well, of course they are since they didn't know they were exploiting the rules until there were rules explaining their exploits.. I think..
Take it from the spanish who were the best swordsmen of their time, verdadera destreza was for dueling but that did not stopped them from breaking the rules and using destreza vulgar techniques
People that treat it as a game will game the system.
Yeah, as soon as HEMA tournies started to become the prime subject, I figured equipment would eventually just evolve into whatever were best optimized for whatever rulesets became the norm.
@@ME-hm7zm optimal equipment also dependent on the competitor as well. A larger stronger person will be able to handle a longer heavier blade. If his fighting style emphasizes beats and hard constrainment more than others, a heavier weapon might be worth the tradeoff in speed, or at least no worse.
I know this is an older video but I find it exciting that the HEMA competition scene is going through the organization and standardisation phase other Martial Arts or combat sports like Olympic fencing Karate or Judo or BJJ are going through. At the end of the day it's about comparing the fencing skill and not about "who has more money to buy the better sword" . I am a life long athlete and Martial Artist and am excited to see what the future brings for this wonderful Martial Art
Great idea. Ive always thought that rapier tournaments turn into chaotic cutting brawls.
We could add damage numbers to swords and health points to fencers:
Rapier
-2hp thrust
-1hp cut
(cup hilt -5hp on wearer)
Sabre
-2hp thrust
-3hp cut
(+2 to pluckiness if it's British)
Matt, please do more rapier videos! I posted a question, maybe a year ago asking if a rapier could feasibly thrust through mail. It's more of a fantasy concern than historical to be sure, but I'd really like to hear your response.
Yes a rapier could thrust through mail, though mail could also resist it, depending on the type/quality of mail and the nature of the rapier and thrust given. Mail continued to be used in the time of the rapier, including for gloves.
Excellent and valid points as usual, it was a very interesting video to watch :)
I agree with what you said.
My old fencing master does have some XVIII century short swords, we call them espadins de corte, and they do have edges. But, like you said they would not cut as deeply as longswords or sabres.
However, soft tissue would be easy enough, so some points would be awarded. It would be hard to fight with a ripped muscle, an open artery or other soft tissue injuries... Even being tapped on the head can be unpleasant enough. Having blood getting in your eyes can't be represented in a tournament... But it would affect you performance. So... Point.
Here in Portugal at some point there where rules made by the king to limit the length of dueling rapiers. Again, even though they were thin at the tip, the edge could still cut through soft tissue; I mean... Even a sharp tips can do that let alone a sharp edge, even if with little mass. And we don't need to cut through bone to kill or seriously injure a person with a cut. Even superficial cut can be a nag, imagine a cut made purposefully with a sharp steal instrument aided by a fast moving very sharp steel object, backed with some bodyweight application.
It's always hard to fit the rules to what reality would be like because of all the variables. In HEMA you allow for afterblows within a larger time frame than in modern fencing. However, although those could happen, other times a mere counter to the weapon's arm could completely stop an stack and prevent any other, just to give an example.
There can hardly be overall concensus unless everyone recognizes no set of rules can absolutely a account for every variables. Even the periodic changing of rules will just result in different adaptations to the rules of the different games.
But that is what Is beautiful. We take techniques that were ment to kill and turn them into a game (or into an artistic expression when talking about artistic fencing and stage fighting in general). Neither is real nor should it be, for people died when it was real. They serve different valid purposes.
So... I believe you shouldn't fret too much about the pontuation...any set of rules will always reflect a determined set of possible situations in detriment of other that were also possible. Like in the case of attacks to the hand that would sometimes stop attacked and, although not usually fatal by themselves, could leave the opponent opened to a death stroke.
Anyway... Keep up the good work!
Love you videos. Even though I've been working with swords and other weapon's since I was there in 1983, and I work with modern, artistic and HEMA fencing as well as several Oriental martial arts, I still sometimes manage to learn something from you. 😀
Cheers!
If they cut when grabbed they are already at 50% cut enabled
3:21 I generally prefer it if people give me a blow without cutting me...
Get them to take their falsers out first.
Your analysis of fast moving blades or slow moving ones and heavy blades or light ones vs. light and heavy/dense objects is spot on IMO, and explains a lot of what I had to intuit out manually every time with "X blade vs Y target." It's a good general rule/explanation.
I think HEMA scoring could award points 1-5 for how good each weapon is at each task, rate each for it's cut and thrust damage etc. If a katana and tulwar are great cutters, they count for 4 points or 5 on a cut but only 3 on a thrust, while rapiers thrust for 5 points and cut for 2 etc.
Soundly argued. Difficult to formalise in a way that will please all, of course, which is a great argument against a fixed set of rules for all tournaments. If one treats competition as another way of honing skill, rather than the goal of training, then that's all the better...
I totally agree with your assesment of the problem and your proposed solution. In fact, I thought of the same solution before you said you'd done that
It would be nice to know what how did different pointing of cuts and thrusts affected your competition.
How about standardizing the "tournament" rapier?
Sportfencing?
Thanks for the recent rapier videos
You would assume hema maybe test out different blades with various strikes on realistic targets to work out scoring.
100% agree. I have been using dark wood bated rapier blades for 15 years. Switching to a Castile rapier simulator has been shockingly different. The cuts are considerably easier but I can't see how they would injure anywhere other than the most sensitive areas of the body. Whereas the bated rapier blade would easily injure a person with a cut even if they are more difficult to pull off.
Unfortunately, when it comes to competitions, there always seems to be some people who are more interested in winning than anything else. Those folks often find the best way to exploit the rules for optimal advantage, even if it is unsportsmanlike, violates the spirit of the competition and isn't fun for anyone involved. And because those people have exploited a loophole, anyone else who wants to have a fair chance has to do the same thing just to be on a level playing field. It's a great way to suck the joy out of something which should be fun. Don't be that guy.
Doesn't even have to be full blown competition.
In airsoft one has to endure those with guns feeding from compressed air tanks, shooting at a 1700 RPM, with the biggest magazine available, making the gun an equivelant of a laser beam rifle.
Or running full sprint around with plastic SMG's holding 300 round magazines.
A game is a game. It needs to have a precise, agreed-upon set of rules, and as long as you stay within their bounds, you're playing fairly. If you think that some additional rules need to be introduced to "cover loopholes", you should negotiate about that with other players, not condemn them for playing the game in a way you don't approve of. If your rules suck and are easily exploited, it's your fault, not anybody else's.
Read David Sirlin's "Playing to Win" on his website ( www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win ), he explains how games work in the real world and how to keep them fun.
@@p_serdiuk I agree, having a good set of rules is important. I've dabbled in game design myself, and looking for ways to break the rules is an important part of design. But, when crafting rules, there can be a point where to try to cover every possible contingency is impossible, or would make the rules either highly restrictive or overly long and complex. At some point, you have to rely on the players to exercise some common sense and sportsmanlike conduct. For example, the rules for Monopoly don't explicitly state that I can't punch another player in the face and steal all their money and property. Does that mean it would be playing fairly to do so? According to your argument, it would be. Unless you are gambling for money, the only purpose of a game is to have fun. If you are doing things to win which ruin the fun for others, even if you are technically within the rules, than you're being a jerk. I'd rather have fun losing than win by being a jerk. But, maybe that's just me :)
@@calamusgladiofortior2814 In most games, you are only allowed to do what the game rules tell you to do, you are not allowed to do anything else, so there is no point in trying to explicitly forbid certain behavior unless it arises too frequently.
There is fun to be had in breaking rules and countering broken moves, unless the game degrades to a single overpowered move. And it is very well possible to design all sorts of games that don't degrade in this way.
A counter-example to Monopoly is Munchkin. Munchkin encourages you to cheat and break rules, and it's still extremely fun, because the game itself is well-designed.
@@p_serdiuk Have you played Monopoly? In certain circles it could definitely degenerate into fisticuffs ;) But as for HEMA, it's supposed to be recreating actual combat as close as possible while not maiming anybody. So purposefully doing something which would never work in real life, but counts because of the necessary abstractions of the sport, violates the spirit of what HEMA is about. The "sport" side of HEMA is only a teaching tool, not the end goal. I felt the same way about foil fencing, back when I did it. I hated the Flick, because it would never work with a real sword blade. But fencing is governed internationally, and the Flick (whipping the blade so the point touches on your opponent's back or shoulder) is considered legal, so what can you do?
I absolutely agree with the mentioned point system (at 10:00).
Should tournaments be broken down by century to showcase more of the different styles?
As a rapier lover, I wholeheartedly agree. Not acknowledging for the different capacity of different rapiers (or swords, in general) would turn HEMA into sport fencing 2.0. And that would be... Utterly ridiculous, at the very least.
@Scholagladiatoria Brilliant video & fantastic idea to encourage realism in competition. Thanks for all of your work.
Btw, as a brand new practitioner, I would love for you to do a video comparing the differences between fencing styles such as saber, rapier, and small sword. Cheers!
It is something to reflect on. How about using a sliding scale of points? Say 5 points for a solid thrust which would be fatal for any type sword, then 4 points for a solid cut with a sabre type blade, 3 points for a cut & thrust type rapier blade that cuts a bit weaker than a sabre blade, and say 1 or 2 points for a very narrow rapier blade for a push or draw type cut, but no points for slight tap cut for a blade that can't really cut. Perhaps before the tournament have tests for similar swords which are sharpened to see how well they can thrust through clothes and how well they can cut say through straw mats say. Basically agree beforehand which swords can actually do damage thrusting and which swords on a sliding scale can do actually do damage with cuts. Obviously not all swords are equal but that is the point. That way you avoid rapier becoming an epee/foil with a fancy hilt.
Great clarification Matt! 👍
Try a topic where duelist used different swords one on one; on foot, and which sword was the most consistent when it came to victory?
Perhaps a follow-up to your, "which sword is best in a dual to the death" video.
Are the built with tournaments in mind rapiers truly historical in their concept? If they are not what are they doing at a HEMA contest?
There is a sizeable population within WMA that wants to turn it into Olympic sport fencing with longsword, or Olympic sport fencing with parrying dagger...etc.
we have a single sword (generally rapier and sidesword) tournament where swords are categorized by length and width, which determined points value in the cut. Each fighter declares what category blade they had before entering the arena, informing the scorer so that once points are calculated at the end of the fight a correct point value could be scored. It worked well to draw out the individual properties of the swords and emphasise a fighting style that matched the properties of the blades they used. The lightest and thinnest blades literally couldn't score on the cut at all.
I have seen you handle the "English Coin Hilt Rapier" (my terminology for it, since I do not know a specific name for that style hilt) in several videos now and it is gorgeous. I am very very interested in who/what company makes that, specifically the blade. It has a very pleasing looking profile and most interesting to me the large tip. Also, a sincere thank you for all the great content you have put out over the years.
It's from Marco Danelli.
I remember reading something about the nobles wearing ever increasing lengths of swords and 'ruffles', so much so, the power that was had to put an upper limit on both.
What's the difference between a military rapier and a sidesword ?
They are both subjective names used by modern people, so potentially no difference. A rapier tends to imply a longer sword though, while a sidesword is normally more or less a broadsword.
Thanks for sharing .
wouldn't hits to the face from any rapier cut the cheeks and nose, as its soft tissue, with dire effects? Or is the idea that even though it would cut, the cut from a saber to the face would be so much worst?
Excellent point, thanks.
I think something that might help in tournaments is to have people focus on trying to get a hit on a particular part of the body without getting hit. For example, if I was running a Rapier tournament I would say only thrusts are valid and only thrusts to the head or center of the body would count. It would not only give people a greater focus on how to attack or defend, but also make scoring easier. In addition, it would also discourage annoying things like hand sniping or trying to get quick taps or the like. I realize this might not be completely historically accurate, I openly admit my knowledge on Rapier is limited, but at least from the tournament perspective it would make things a bit easier for training and judging.
I don’t even bother with cuts to the torso with my rapier. It’s so narrow that I use a 22 long rifle shell on the end to help blunt it. It’s a stabbing weapon that can certainly disable a limb and whack someone in the head.
I like your cheerful attitude towards haters. Also the video look slightly different to usual , are you using a new camera?
When an element of competition is introduced to any rules-based activity, be it business or sport, people suddenly become very good at adhering to the "Letter of the Law" whilst ignoring (or murdering in its sleep) the "Spirit of the Law". This is especially true of sports (like fencing) where competitors can bring their own, modifiable equipment to a competition. As a veteran of sport sabre fencing and a complete HEMA noob, I would hope that for HEMA, "Spirit of the Law" is held in as high regard as "Letter of the Law". In the context of HEMA, this entails respect for the art form, respect for one's instructors, peers and opponents, respect for tournament/sparring rules, respect for historical and archaeological sources, etc. It's not enough to follow a set rules. You should also try to 'live' them. These ideas should be a basic component of training.
More so than the 'winner' of a tournament, I feel awe and respect for the fencer who holds up his or her arm in an important bout to acknowledge an opponent's hit, even when the presiding judges have missed it. To me, that embodies love for the "Spirit of the Law".
Holding up your hand isn't just the "spirit of the law", it's just plain sportsmanship and should always be respected in any sport (I consider a HEMA tournament a sport, even though I admire it's attempt for historical accuracy). Although I do get your general point and agree with it. It's useful to make RAI and RAW, or the spirit and letter of the law as you call it respectively, as close to each other as possible. But in the end the practice of the sport should be as historical as possible. Particularly since most matches are basically exclusively for honour and fun, why try to 'game' the system? Playing the metagame seems pretty counterproductive to the whole idea of HEMA doesn't it? Anyhow it seems inevitable in practice, since some people tend to misunderstand the goal of a sport (spoiler alert: it isn't to win and never has been, in any sport ever, particularly in a sport that is as much a form of practical history as it is a sport).
Agreed, and it's happening.
for me a solution for tournaments that allow long and light rapiers with blades that would cut deeply is to either to score only thrusts or to prioritize thrusts much more than cuts (like on swordfish). in this option people focus more on thrusts (which is ok with this type of weapon)
I think we are confusing cut with hack. I sharpen my own knives/blades, they are razor sharp. If I had that sort of edge on a rapier, I would not need much weight or effort to CUT. It's really scary when you think about it. I think this speaks a bit to the metal technology of the day. Softer/brittle metallurgy would not hold a thin edge very well, so the styles best used would be to pierce and/or hack with mass. As metallurgy improves, strong, thin blades would hold a very keen edge that would require little mass and effort to cut.
Sadly in Olympic fencing this ship has sailed - with the rules being dictated by the equipment (most evident in the flick). The majority of Olympic fencers no longer seem to regard it as a martial art and seem quite content with these mechanical accidents dictating the form.
But people get into HEMA with the idea of simulating the real combat skills I imagine. So it makes sense to keep updating the rules to keep giving a closer experience to real fighting in those weapon traditions.
thecaveofthedead Olympic fencing isn’t a martial art at all, it’s tag with metal wires
That’s why it’s called sport fencing
I've done sport fencing for 7 years, and it hasn't 'set the sail', it has never even tried to resemble actual combat. It's a sport and resembles a duel as much as rugby resembles a battle, which is absolutely fine. I don't know anyone who has ever considered sport fencing to be a resemblance of an actual duel. I would argue it's still a martial arts, just like judo is considered one; it's origin is martial and it has a lot of martial concepts, such as tempo, distance and footwork that are central to the sport.
@@jaspermooren5883 I've also done it. Maybe the way you learn it now hides the martial art connection. But when I learned sport foil the emphasis on hitting the central mass to guarantee a disabling strike, with the flexible foil making sure that a bent blade visible to corner judges would mean sufficient penetration to disable, the right of way to train out a tendency to attack into an attack and potentially hit your opponent at lethal cost to yourself, and the emphasis on attacking with a straight arm to discourage your opponent from attacking into your attack with potentially the same result were all incredibly useful training rules to ensure that you could come out of a one on one smallsword fight both the victor and alive.
It's a little hard to see an argument against that. Epée was purely a game. And sabre was rendered useless by a training weapon completely unsuitable to teach the use of the actual weapon. But foil fencing as I was taught it taught excellent habits and skills for one vs. one smallsword combat.
Surely 'can cut' or 'can't cut' is also very much relative to what you might be hoping to cut through? Being able to cut through an exposed neck to the jugular vein is a very dangerous and useful ability, and a lot less challenging than slicing through the chest of a tough jacket.
I have a 37" Hanwei Practical Rapier that I rather like (and because I'm poor). How would it fall on your spectrum?
Only 37 inches? Is that from the pommel or from the ricasso?
@@joseignaciohileradorna5122 I believe it is blade length. Hanwei sells them in 37" and 43" lengths.
same applies in saber tourneys, some shows up with italian dueling sabers with was a lighter basket hilt, while some with gynasium bowl hilts , some with military types stirrup/bars, the weight, length and protection varies ...
Idea: you can enter with saber or rapier or whatever, but you must use a "tournament rapier" or suchlike, provided by the sponsors, not any random mutation you bring. Spendy, but would be fairer.
Very interesting video Matt.
To what extent do you think this could also apply to the use of (relatively) narrow and straight Victorian-style sabres in competition, as opposed to the broader and more curved styles of the Georgian era and earlier?
Matt would you say that the smallswords with edges ,were primarily their the discourage grabbing, vs chopping cuts ?
I would guess they were for "first blood" duels.
Perhaps it could be dealt with in that way: each cut is a point, each thrust is a point, yet the nature of the cut/thrust is writen in the score. I mean, sc and st for saber cut and saber thrust for instance, or rc and rt with the rapier. Therefore, if both rapier user and saber user scores a cut and the dual ends there, instead of equalty, the saber get the victory, and if they both score a thrust, the rapier get victory. If each score the other type of hit (cut or thrust) than the other, they got equalty because either they scored both the advantageous hit, or both the disadvantageous hit . Howether, if one scores more hit than the other, the more hits scored still get victory. Does it looks like a good way to deal the issue?
I guess the real solution is to give away the armor and fight to the death.................
There is cutting. And there is chopping limbs.
What did a Spanish Conquistador era "war" rapier look like? I recall reading they could lop limbs (thought I don't know if that was exaggeration).
They were using sideswords and military rapiers mostly.
@@scholagladiatoria Thank you! If you do another rapier or relevant video and have one handy, maybe compare it to the civilian model?
VERY NICE! i agree with the scoring system. Should motivate people to use more weapons :) nice!
Perhaps a weight-class system would help rapier scoring. Heavy rapiers against heavy rapiers and light rapiers against light rapiers?
At the last tournament I was in, a "strike without authority" disqualified a hit from earning points.
Your point about cuts is indeed important, but personally, i think that any rapier tournament should adopt a rule implying that any thrust to the torso, or face, should count as instant elimination. Even with doubles (especially regarding doubles!), both should be eliminated. That's the only way you can simulate how dangerous a rapier fight really can be. Without a rule of this type, it's just sport fencing with triple-weight epees.
While most torso thrust wounds would be ultimately fatal in historical context they aren't instantly incapacitating . This is one of the reasons cut and thrust swords were the usual military choice until advancement in firearms technology put edged weapons into a sideline niche role.
What about "hits to the head, both cuts and trusts, nullify the opponent after blow"?
Ironically, making one thrust an instakill is exactly what leads to Olympic epee rules, with suicidal charges and no thought for what happens next. People don't instantly stop moving when they've been run through the body, they often keep fighting until they are dead. Same with being shot.
I think the fear of being eliminated would push the fencers to keep more binds on the opponents blade, and a better technique. I'm sure that in a civil environment a full thrust to the torso (wothout a quick afterblow in the next seconds) would most times put the opponent out of play.
@@scholagladiatoria "suicidal charges and no thought for what happens next" - isn't that exactly how some people actually fought, though? And often won by doing so, especially against a smaller, weaker, slower, inexperienced or nervous opponent. Certainly many battle and duel accounts suggest this, whether out of fanaticism or in some cases when they have been provoked out of initial caution. And a double kill or at any rate serious injuries to both was evidently not all that uncommon a result.
Presumably if you had a habit of doing so, if you fought enough fights then unless you were very lucky you would eventually come up against someone good enough, quick enough or lucky enough to make you pay the ultimate price for it. But doubtless some of the great heroes of history were big strong quick men who did this and got away with it.
As to whether it makes for a good sporting spectacle, that's another question. Presumably if you are good and you know your opponent has a habit of charging in suicidally then you can exploit it.
I was watching 2019 swordfish finals. I'm not into the judging. Slow motion cameras should be used and the judges should have to review the footage before deciding who wins or gets a point. I know this would take longer but if you want something done right.....
May I make a suggestion? Nowadays, it is more than feasible to make your own force-meter. I am talking about a small device and sensor you could place at the end of your sword, and it will give you an accurate estimation of the impact force. I am not sure whether that is all too interesting to you but it would make the judging of impact force objective.
There is a very active youtube community behind this hobby. These youtubers would probably love to collaborate with you. I can suggest Andreas Spiess. He is a very nice Swiss man (shipping cost is lower!) who is always looking for new ways to make his youtube audience happy. Oh, and he is an engineer who understands physics.
Would it be possible to agree upon a series of assessments of the blade chosen, and change the points given for different strikes accordingly?
Alternately could the choice of blade be considered part of the participants' skill and knowledge? I'm thinking of someone who uses a nimble thrust optimized blade, for an opponent they know is more vulnerable to that style, but chooses a more cut optimized blade, for an opponent they have observed leaves themselves open to that kind of strike.
I'd be interested to see more about diff types of rapier blades -- as represented by practice swords. Most of them, from Castille Armory to budget Hanwei rapiers, seem to have very narrow blades though cross sections defer. Be nice to see a practice blade representative of the several blade types...
And you echo my frustrations with FIE sabre fencing :)
The modern ~400g sabre (of which more than half the mass is the hilt) makes no real sense. A blade that light and quick would never be used as a cutting weapon.
I would argue that it makes total sense, since it has never even tried to resemble an actual duel, it's a sport. All the rules aren't designed with combat in mind but with how easy they are to adjudicate and to make the sport interesting and fun (such as right of way, which makes it harder to adjudicate, but way more interesting, but is also quite unhistorical, obviously). Fencing represents the duel like rugby represents a battle; only in its origin. The weapons are designed to be as safe as possible, so that less protective (therefore much cheaper) gear is required, which means that fatigue is less of an issue (which it already is due to the high amount of bouts during a standard fencing tournament) and the sport is more accessible. It's just where the priorities are and for over 50 years at the FIE they don't lie at historical accuracy, which is absolutely fine, if you want that, do HEMA :). Btw I agree that HEMA tournaments should have scoring systems that make the rules be as close as 'real life' as possible, it's HISTORICAL european martial arts after all. Sport fencing is just a sport. For some weird reason only HEMA people seem to put sport fencing in a combat context, I've never spoken to any fencer that conciders sport fencing as a form of combat. It's a martial art, but in the same way that judo is one, it has fundamental principles of combat such as tempo and distance, but it doesn't resemble an actual duel and doesn't try to. Hitting with the flat is a point in sabre for the sole reason that it makes the electrical equipment cheaper and more reliable, I think that rests my case...
I think thrust only points should be scored for rapier tournaments. It would make the fencing bouts easier to score and will bring out better quality and more entertaining fencing.
Are there any good single stick treatise written before 1750?
Yes.
I agree with you, Matt.
Hey Matt, idea. State your desired conclusion at the start then make your case. If you started with I think rapier tournaments should score differently for the cuts of specific blades, then made your arguments that would make your videos flow a bit better
Prehaps limit rapiers to draw cuts only, to make them match the effectiveness of a sabre cut points wise? I do SCA (don’t really have any HEMA in my parts) and that’s how we deal with cuts in rapier, primarily. We just did a tournament the other day (I’m new so I was dead last, 0-2-4 in three rounds)... Matt you mention you have a rather long rapier, and personally I prefer shorter blades on my swords, what would be the maximum length for an early short sword / later transitional rapier? I’m thinking of maybe getting a 36-38 in blade for my primary practice sword...
When you've used these rules, have you had disputes regarding the performance of someone's favorite weapon? It seems like it would put the judges in the crosshairs of anyone with an axe to grind.
crosshairs on an axe?
You use a scope on your axe? not very realistic 😀
Yeah, of course. People with giant epees want their cuts to count the same as a falchion. People are usually in it for the winz.
I assumed the different points for different weapons were set in the rules beforehand? Of course people will always argue about the rules, they do that with any set of rules in any situation. In case of the ruleset called the law the even built a parlement to argue over the rules :P. However if the rules are set beforehand, how is the judge in the 'crosshair'? Then it's just the rules they have to follow as much as you have to right?
I kept thinking "why not just subcategorize rapiers?" until you mentioned you did just that. But maybe also take into consideration the style of the fighter, i.e. Destreza both uses longer blades and hounds the head and neck with cuts that are meant to be incapacitating. Those cuts should be more valuable than those of schools that adopted the longer blade lenght but with square or triangle section blades.
Interesting dilemma. I have a fencing background but am interested in HEMA. Ironically, I think that making the scoring rule adjustments you suggest would lead you down the evolutionary road that olympic fencing has gone down. As HEMA grows more popular and tournaments grow larger and more mainstream you will invariably see participants who are not as fanatical about the martial aspect so much as the sporting one. Over time these and other competitors would naturally gravitate to the lighter, more flickable sword that would give them a competitive advantage at the cost of realism. If, on the other hand, the rules were changed to allow only the heavier style of rapiers, you would potentially stifle innovation in equipment and development of new techniques. It's a difficult balancing act staying true to a sport's roots vs embracing innovation. Olympic fencing and Formula 1 are some great examples.
Maybe rule makers can set requirements on type of rapier and separate the different types into different events. So the heavier more historically accurate rapiers go against its equal, and same thing with the lighter and perhaps more floppier ones.
Makes sense. Historically a variety of rapiers as well as other contemporary swords were used against each other with a reasonable equality of effectiveness so one type should not dominate HEMA tournaments.
Perhaps there should be two or three classes of rapiers with different scoring and maybe a separate open rapier competition for tournament optimised designs.
It all boils down to counting martial blows instead of sport touches.
And this is how we got to modern sport fencing.
Is there an online document describing the different point breakdown mentioned in the end of this video?
yes of corse a sword type should have performace related points, same as you have in gaming systems, a slow heavy weapon will do more damage vs a fast light sword doing less damage per hit
therefore as you have the knowledge of sword types and combat with you should take into consideration the blade and attribute the points per hit
But is a rapier and sabre really similar in cross-section and size for the thrust? Not even the ones you were holding up had similar blade widths at the point.
It balances out, because whatever little bit of extra width you have will reduce the depth of wound. So you might create a slightly wider hole, but it will be less deep. In approximation, the results on average seem about the same. Cuts however are drastically different.
@scholagladiatoria: I think a fascinating topic would be a comparaison between a cut&thrust rapier VS. a smallsword with triangular section of the SAME LENGTH, say 90cm blade (like modern épée & foils). I think that such small rapiers and such big smallswords (especially colichemardes) did exist in the transitional era. I think that at equal length, the triangular section makes the thrust a HUGE advantage. Yet, some cutting capacity should not be overlooked. Sir Easton, what say you?
What is your take on draw cuts, especially by lighter weapons?
is that a jian in the back ground???
Yeah, he said he was going to be doing a video on it soon.... weeks ago.
One of those topics :p.
@@godnaut i been waiting years for him to do a video on jians
Matt Easton: a rapier can't cut easily through a pig carcass
Doug Markida: hold my sake
ua-cam.com/video/fuDWtQXB1Tc/v-deo.html
Good man
Maybe it would be good to have a test cut, in say balistic gel before. If you don´t get any damage to it with a cut. you don´t get any points for a cut.
matt, you still haven't cleaned that spear
Matt, I love your style and your work and listening to you has dragged into the sharp and pointy world. What is your opinion of the heavy rapiers of the the SCA? I was trying to find a local HEMA group and found them instead. I was going to walk away but they're really friendly and have really amazing fancy hats.
SCA rapier fencing is certainly a good way to start but it’s not really as historically accurate as some HEMA classes. However not all HEMA is particularly realistic either.....
The quality of sca rapier is like the quality of a hema club, entirely dependant on the particular people there.
Exactly
@@alexriner7182 Which of course is true of any martial arts group and any group of people in general.
But the fancy hats tho...
More importantly; Is a Highcastle Rapier more effective than A Krondor Rapier or a Darkmoor Rapier? And how would they fare against the Keshian Inner Legions?
Your idea could also be the base to introduce spadroons in sabre tournaments, less points for the cut compensate agility.
This is the one of biggest problems in HEMA. Referees score the rapier fights as if they are lightsabers. Most of valid longsword hits don't even cut through fabric in real combat.
My problem is that they don't use a actually rapier, when we see tournaments they use a tin rapier which makes the use of skill less necessary and the speed more deciding. A actually rapier is longer and heavier which you can't maneuver that easily without technique and skill unlike the wiggling stick they use, this is why "La Verdadera Destreza" focused on math and geometry, a actually rapier can be used to block attacks from a longsword although i doubt it can block a greatsword tho but yes the rapier can parry and counter attack and if a master of the blade that knows how to handle the rapier good they could do a accurate trust through the small openings on armor but every weapon has their pros and cons and it always comes down to who is the best fighter.
Hi Matt,
I'm a big fan of you and your channel. It's my dream to study HEMA, though I live in Japan in a city where there is no such thing. I did study sport saber fencing in college years ago. BTW, I am designing a TRPG... and I use your videos as inspiration for my design.
My understanding is that you are not a role-player and do not have interest in that. But I would like to make a suggestion. I feel that you should find some good role-players - people who play D&D or Runequest (that's an old RPG, more popular in Europe, which came out shortly after D&D) who like HEMA. Sit down with them and hash out some rules, then iterate on the design to make it work-able and eliminate exploits. That's what RPG game designers do.
Off the top of my head, you can create a letter classification system - say 4 tiers. A - thrust only weapons, B - thrust and light cut, C - thrust and power cut, D. cut-only. Then the real-world technical specs match to meet the class. Rapiers under X inches length with over X weight can be in group B. To assist you in the categorizing task, you can plot weight and length in a normal distribution graph (so... find an RPG nerd who like HEMA and knows statistics) to come up with normal weight/length for each class and define acceptable variance.
You can then have hit target mods to the class structure. B-class (light cut) do standard points in cuts neck and head only. Full cuts negate counter-attack point scoring, as do thrusts to head. Some scoring mechanic that increases the incentive to protect ones' self from after-hit counters.
And then, publish the rules. Make videos about the rules. I think you are quite influential; if anyone can push for rules-standardization it would be you.
Hey Matt, can you show us that Chinese sword in the background?
This brings up a broader problem in HEMA scoring. Not all cuts are equal, even with the same weapon. A light tap with a saber isn't going to have the same effect as a strong impact. The same is true for thrusts. But there's no way to accurately score wounds in tournaments. There winds up being an advantage in delivering quick light attacks that wouldn't create serious wounds in real life. I don't know any way around this.
Imagine having this information on how too long rapiers / foils don't cut.
Then parrying and grabbing your opponents blade and absolutely wrecking their, then explaining yourself to your opponent & referee's.
This seems like a hard scoring system to implement, espeacilly since in many of the bouts I've seen the judges and refs already have trouble awarding points.
Not exactly related to this video; Is anyone familiar with HEMA groups in or near Louisville, Kentucky?