Cinderella is about an abuse victim who finally disobeys her abusive parent and gets help in escaping the household. I'm sick of people thinking she's weak.
@@aacsmiles It could have been great if the writing took that and ran with it though. Like if they understand that OG Cinderella is an abuse victim who managed to remain resilient and kind in the face of the abuse she suffered. And then the musical starts with Bad Cinderella basically going, "screw that, I'm not gonna be docile and kind," and at first you think she's just mocking the original. But then as the musical goes on, you can realize that Bad Cinderella is still very much an abuse victim, it's just that she responds by lashing out and being defensive and closed off instead. Then the theme of the musical is that even though she wasn't a perfect victim who still acts nice in spite of it all, it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve the chance to escape, the chance to find love, and the chance to rediscover who she is when out of those circumstances.
I would never describe someone in those circumstances that way, but we don’t hold Disney princesses to the same standards- in the same way that being chased through the woods by an ax murderer is a very unique and terrifying experience but also a boring cliché. Cinderella has a lack of control or agency in her own narrative, which is just… damsel-in-distress. She wouldn’t be a weak person, but she’s definitely a weak character. Those are among her only traits- passive, docile, beautiful, romantic, kind. The 1950s ideal. You can bring a redeeming reading to the story, but it’s definitely working against the actual text. Like this just feels like getting mad that critiques of the 1950s Cinderella film aren’t taking your fanon into account.
I still remember when I read a comic on tumblr that was from Disney Cinderella's Prince POV. It was him staring at the glass slipper while thinking back on what Cinderella had told him during the night (we never learn what the prince and Cinderella talked about when they spent time together alone in the Disney movie), and it's all stuff that makes it clear, when put together, that Cinderella is stuck in an abusive home and this was her one glimpse of happiness and freedom. The prince, clutching the shoe, says that he needs to find her. Just, that re-framing of the Prince's search for Cinderella, not being just because he's in love with her and wants to marry her, but specifically because he is scared that she's in a bad situation and desperately needs help, and he wants to see her again so he can help her, chef's kiss
It doesn't even have to be a villain song. Plenty of musicals start out with their protagonist being somewhat flawed which is communicated in their introductory number, and then change for the better over the course of the plot. The problem isn't just that "Bad" Cinderella is acting insufferable, even if her personality were as great as the audience is supposed to think, that wouldn't make for very compelling theatre, because the character has no room to grow. The Disney version has this problem too, with their Cinderella being a little too perfect to make for a very compelling character, but it is telling that Bad Cinderella which is trying to set itself apart from "traditional" versions like the Disney movie is falling into the same trap.
@juliamavroidi8601 the message of this song is kinda similar to "Belle," in which Belle acts a bit hoity and sees herself as above the people in the poor town . . . Some of this is accurate to the book and movie, when Cinderella is what her stepfamily calls her to bully her, but it makes her stronger in the sense that the word is now practically synonymous with "princess" . . . It's moreso the vandalism that gets me: I don't see the original Cinderella ever doing something like that, or looking down on others for their appearance like this version does.
She was really the west end's saving grace Edit: she literally was The West's End's Saving Grace, screw ALW firing her (WITHOUT HER KNOWING) while also using her to profit off her Les Mis and Heathers fame, aswell as the rest of the cast, like this man is a slimebag
As someone who genuinely enjoys some of Andrew Lloyd Webber’s musicals (Cats and School Of Rock), I watched a bootleg of this musical and thought it was extremely mediocre. You’re not being "nit picky” or "a hater” when everything about this show has a lot of cringey aspects. Not to mention how horribly Andrew Lloyd Webber did the West End cast.
My biggest issue with Bad Cinderella as a musical is that when I listened to the cast recording, this song was actually the one I liked the most, not because I thought it was good, but because I found the chorus to be catchy. Yet, the only reason I did find it catchy was how it referenced "In my own little corner" from Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella melodically and I consider it to be a bad sign when the best thing about a song is that it references another song that is quite a lot better.
Can media stop portryaing goth/punk/alt/scene or any other subculture girls in general alwayss as 'i'm not like other girls i'm so cool' types already. feels like media thinks girls who're different from the nrom must all be doing so on purpose just to stick it to the popular princess-type. For once just give me a goth lady who's like that just cause she likes to and doens't act unsuferable about being different and thus better than the stacies
Like obviously the alt scene comes with a level of separating yourself from the "norm" but it's so much more about self-expression and community. You don't have to hate everyone else to enjoy dressing goth and it's such a shame how much it comes with these sexist ideas that women can never be friends
Yeah the princess type is seen as the norm, basic, boring, since it's pushed onto women so much, so if you're outside that you must be so rebellious and a better woman or something, making the "rebel" one look good at the expense of the "basic" one. It's a crutch and I agree seeing more characters with unique style just cos they like it would be cool.
Ingrid Third from "Fillmore" might come close. There are a couple of episodes that comment about her "emo/goth like" outfit, but she's generally pretty friendly.
Interesting! Admittedly, I don't really follow musical theatre, but on a surface level it seems like Bad Cinderella is trying to be Wicked without understanding what made Wicked work. Elphaba was also "not like other girls" but she was portrayed in a much more natural and likeable way. Compare this song to, say, Defying Gravity - the big breakout song where the protagonist declares herself literally above all the others who've caused her harm. It's a great moment because we have a chance to empathize with the character and want her to succeed. This version of Cinderella, by contrast, just comes across as abrasive.
Also that the “popular stuck up girl” Glinda both befriends Elphaba and the two share a heart-to-heart about why they are the way that they are. Glinda isn’t put down because she’s traditionally feminine and pretty; in fact, her removing Elphie’s glasses and encouraging her to be more expressive ends up giving her more confidence. All without sacrificing her more studious/modest style, too!
6:00 I think a better thing to put would be "crystal glass" at least in terms of meaning. Like expensive crystal glassware and it still hits the syllable count
Man, I would love to get see an adaptation of Cinderella where all those years abuse, she finally snaps. Have her be selfish and petty because she never lived for herself.
Team Starkid actually did a show with an idea kinda like that. It's called Cinderella's Castle and in the show, Cinderella takes revenge against her abusers. It may be released on UA-cam at some point, but I must say that the show was a great watch.
When I first heard the hook of the song (“call me Bad Cinderella, nasty girl, gutter rose”), I was like “I love this, it’s going to be so cheesy but still have a few moments of gold,” which is basically what you hope for from an ALW show. Like, “gutter rose” is such a solid phrase for the concept of characters mocking an alt version of Cinderella that I thought for sure it was a perfectly applied, real world folk saying or something. I would have loved for the rest of the song to have followed that kind of direction.
The "fairy tales/disney women are sexist/passive" stuff only got so prominent because it was easy Lazy Take fodder for Buzzfeed and lesser Cracked style listicles. It was never meant to be taken seriously by the actual companies and writers! It's food-for-thought for 13 year olds. This and the live-action beauty and the beast are so... undignified. ThereWillBeFudd has a good vid about Snow White on this topic
also actresses and celebrities. Keira Knightley, Kristen Bell, Demi Lovato, Alicia Keys, they all demonized Disney princesses. Ironically all except Alicia have been in Disney projects involving princesses.
I'm so mad that Carrie Hope Fletcher got stuck with this role. She was so happy to originate such an important role and work with Andrew Lloyd Webber, and this is what they give her to work with?!
This version of Cinderella could’ve worked for me if she was simply fed up with people insulting her for not being able to free herself. Imagine Cinderella, fed up with both her family and the society that insults her for the terrible life she has, and now just doesn’t care about people’s opinions
That chorus is a form of musical torture with how it's an inverted play on the tune of "In My Own Little Corner". To paraphrase MST3K, never play a good song inside your bad song!
While I'd want Disney to adapt their 1950 and 2015 films as a stage musical (perhaps with elements of the threequel), "Cinderella" is SUCH a crowded space in stage, given it's heartwarming message. We need different fairy tales to be adapted.
@@emilylike-the-soup2502 I know about that one, but I mainly meant one using the storyline from the firdt film (and the remake)--possibly with elements of the third film--rathee than the new story used on the cruise.
Once again, I love how well you explain this even to people who don't have much or any musical knowledge. "Church rock" was the perfect way to describe how that section just doesn't feel right.
Yeah, I cringe when I have to sit through a musical with this kind of music. Ever since boomers took over Broadway, we have gotten endless variations on this. It's why jazz became a niche genre: fewer songs that lent themselves to that kind of interpretation were becoming popular.
I genuinely _despise_ how people and media like "Bad Cinderella" talk about women who choose to be trophy wives or girly girls, because it's very hypocritical, and completely antithetical to the point of feminism.
In the UK, they promoted the song Bad Cinderella relentlessly and I think the tune is really good. It’s super catchy. But the LYRICS from the first time I heard them I was like this is the most “not like other girls” nonsense and it put me off the whole show. Although it seems like I didn’t miss much lol.
5:32 I know this wouldn’t make much sense because of the syllables count. But wouldn’t ‘stained glass’ houses make more sense in a metaphor sense? Stained glass windows are pretty, artistic, beautiful, but are definitely not inmune to being broken, the glass is pretty fragile compared to the ones we use for many other things. I think it also fits the aesthetics they were going for for this story. It definitely fits better than plexiglass…
As an Andrew Loyd Webber musical enjoyer (I regret to inform people that Cats the Musical is the BEST musical imo, please don’t take my opinions seriously), the worst part of bad Cinderella’s writing is that it’s so… bland? School of Rock, Cats, Jesus Christ Superstar, Phantom, Starlight Express, all of the songs have a specific voice and cadence and lyrical style to them that make all the characters stand out as individuals and make the musical’s individual pieces stand out from both the other songs in the show and other musicals. Dewy Finn sounds completely different lyrically and totally when he sings than the Phantom, or even in the same show, Skimbleshanks’ fast rhythmic patter says a lot about of him and is fundamentally different than Grizzabella’s slow mournful songs or Rum Tum Tugger’s seductive and peppy crooning and runs. The main crime of the titular song from Bad Cinderella (alongside its many many many other crimes), is that Cinderella’s musical style and tone is so… boring? I feel like the music says and shows nothing about her. She’s just… singing a pop song. I expected better, but maybe it was my fault for having high expectations for this show tho.
please keep these up i love dissecting rhymes and why they appeal to me so much, i never thought much to inspect the way music adds to the experience until i stumbled upon your channel :)
loved the analysis! also you're so right about the church rock sound, lmao. for a character who's supposed to be a punk, I would've expected the music to be...punk. harsh! grungy! at least abrasive enough to match her personality! what we got feels so _toothless,_ just tonally dissonant in general.
I liked Bad Cinderella when I watched it, But I don't think you're a hater! Your Video (as always) is super well done, and full of cool information :D (It also explains a couple things about this song that don't hit quite as hard as they should) Id be super interested in you talking about the other songs from Bad Cinderella, "I Know You" is my favorite song from the musical.
My mother and I LOVE Broadway and go to at least 3 shows a year. We did the todaytix ticket roulette and got tickets to bad cinderella. First issue: it sucked. We left at intermission and the ushers were like “yeah we understand.” We have NEVER left a show like this before. It was just really that bad. It was just raaah raaah men without shirts and I’m not like other girls! Also it just sucked. I only liked the song between the queen and the stepmother, and honestly the worst song in any other musical is better than that (I’m looking at you, March of the Falsettos) Second issue: no captions. I’m deaf and was physically unable to understand what they were saying unless my mom whispered into my hearing aids to tell me what was happening. I had this show chosen for me and was inappropriate that I paid for a show that was not disclosed to be inaccessible for me. This isn’t necessarily Bad Cinderella’s fault, but I wanted to let people know this happened so they can avoid it happening to them.
Could you please analyze more of Howard Ashman’s lyrics like Belle and Poor Unfortunate souls? I love how detailed your analysis is and how much I can learn about musical theater/ song structure 🥹
wow, such actors and performance are wasted! Damn, it's sad. And you, Astor, is brilliant as ever. There is plenty of musicals I'd love to hear your opinion about. How about *Love never dies* ?
Oof this song is that exact kind of bad that gets stuck in your head for a week - lyrics that are just kitty corner from making sense so your brain can't stop running over them
Do you only analyse lyrics ? Because I would be so happy if somebody was to make a video about the music during the "Cinderella flees the ball" scene in the 1950 animated movie. I think this music gets overshadowed by the movie's memorable songs, although it is so well done
While they're still focused on lyrical songs, she does dissect the instrumentals in some of the other musical critiques/praises she's done for things like the Tangled Series or the Live Action Remakes of several songs.
@@papershadow Thank you for the answer ! Then in that case I hope someday she makes an instrumental analysis on Cinderella's ball escape in the 1950 animated movie
As non native English speaker I always thought the saying abot glass houses was cause if your house is made of glass everyone sees what you are doing so all your secrets are out, so you cant be a hypocrite... Never thought it was because glass brakes lol
Can I just second everything you said from 9:19 - 10:05? Because you nailed everything I hate about the superficial Cinderella critique, the idea that stories with romance are inherently inferior, and the idea that leaning on other people makes you weak. I know some of it is a pendulum swinging too far in the other direction -- yes, women can and do have other ambitions in life outside of finding a man, and are capable of standing on our own feet and making our own decisions -- but it creates these really abrasive, unpleasant characters who aren't treated as being abrasive and unpleasant, and some actually questionable morals, as well as making it feel like being kind and caring is weak rather than strong.
In the year or so since I first heard this song I've been singing it with various made-up lyrics like "I am BAD Cinderella and I live in a hole / And I don't know how to FUNCtion"... I didn't realize until watching this video that the real lyrics constantly slide out of my head, and it has to be for all the reasons you lay out - they're sloppy!
This song feels like the first draft like they had one idea for the rhyme scheme at the start, changed to another idea halfway through and didn't bother to go back to sync everything up 😭
"well, it's about to get even worse" hooked me I have to say! I know next to nothing about literary analysis-- or what ever this is called. It's a side of musical theatre analysis I've not come across until now. Very well done, and entertaining unlike the material discussed in this particular video, hahaha. New subscriber here!
Suggestion for songs to examine: the additional songs that were added for the Lion King and Frozen musicals. Frozen was the more egregious culprit imo, but there’s such a clear distinction in quality between what was written for the film versus what was added for the stage productions.
1:58 I'm not a native english speaker but I think "she's a loser, a loon, she's me/she's all me" could also work? Also, great vid, I love watching people analyse musicals :33
If you ever want to tackle something as a palate cleanser, I don't think I have seen anyone look into Epic's lyrics with the eyes of a lyricist - music, the story in general, random reactions to the whole thing, analyzing how people interpreted the songs over different animatics, yes. But I haven't seen one look at the lyrics and the craft behind them in more detail. It might be an interesting project, but at the same time it could be much too big to tackle just like that.
On the topic of Cinderella rewrites; Bad Cinderella is not the best, but I am SO excited for Cinderella's Castle to drop on youtube next year, and I'd love to see a comparison
It always kind of bugged me that ALW going on about wanting to make a new and different Cinderella. Like, Andy, you already did! It was all those things and actually good!
Everytime I hear the chorus of Bad Cinderella my brain feels like it should follow the melody of _"In My Own Little Corner"_ From Rodgers and Hammerstien's classic _Cinderella_ musical. Am I nuts, or does anyone else feel like?
If you're looking for recommendations on songs to dissect, 'Murder, Murder' from Jekyll and Hyde makes some truly bewildering choices. Highlights include 'To kill outside St. Paul's/Requires a lot of balls!' and 'Murder, murder/Once there's one done/Murder, murder/Can't be undone/Murder, murder/Lives in LonDON', among many, many other clunkers.
I absolutely understand the critique of the lyrics and I'm fully on board with showcasing how goofy pick me/ not like other girls tropes are, BUT I do think that we should also acknowledge how misogynistic society is at MOST times and we shouldn't blame - in fact we should support - women/girls/non-men, who have been shunned or ridiculed and now express their disdain for the abusive world they live in. As much as I want to poke fun at these lines - and trust me, they don't feel punchy, useful or fun - I think that ignoring the glaring issue of heterosexual romance being a primary source of achievement specifically for women is the go to move here. I really enjoy your content, have not missed a video and am excited for new projects, but I really think this is important to keep in mind - internalized misogyny is a HUGE problem and pick me's are just on the other face of the same coin, meaning they're not the problem, they're the symptom, arising from a larger issue.
@@astorrhymemaster I fully understand that. Maybe I misunderstood the intent of focus of your critique, otherwise I absolutely see it the same way. Hope you understood my point!
From what ive seen of the concept, it could be really cool if more foccused on cinderellas actual story as an abuse victim versus not like other girlisms. Bad Cinderella could be someone whos survived her house not like the actual Cinderella did, by holding onto kindness, finding companionship in unlikely places and not giving up her dreams but by becoming jaded as a mechanism to defend herself. Shes not going to judge others on trophy wives because shed probably do the same to get out of her situation. The romance and the ball could come of that with her and the prince actually falling in love while they plot together or something. Feels like a super wasted concept that could have been used for a kind look at the realities of abuse and trauma
"A no-one, a nutter, unwelcome" just keeping the a makes it so much better because it matches the un Even the plexiglass line could have worked if the context around it were tweaked just a little bit. Like "Yeah, you're being a hypocrite, but you consider yourself insulated from all the consequences of your hypocrisy because you can afford to be like that."
I don't know about the full song, but i do like the snippets as snippets. Without context, my brain accepts it as i want it to be. Plus, i get more distracted by the instruments since they lead.
This song has bothered me for so long, I got inordinately excited when your video was recommended 😅 Bad Cinderella just sounds SO awkward to sing, nothing like ALW's classics.
People are really looking at the classical Princesses (Cinderella and Snow White were abused, Aurora was taken away from her parents as an infant to be protected from Maleficent who openly wanted to kill her, Ariel was being held back by an overprotective father who was scared to lose his daughters the way he lost his wife, Belle was mocked by her entire town because she really was not like other girls and they hated that she was well-learned but the Beast/the Prince loved that about her, Jasmine wanted to be free from her overly protective father who wanted her to marry men who only wanted her for status and not for who she was, and Pocahontas' entire characterization was misrepresenting in her movies because I'm fairly certain they were reading John Smith's creepy diaries instead of asking her decendants for help to make a historically accurate film) and say "these women actually aren't oppressed and all they wanted were men". like no. The men were a nice bonus or they came with that sense of newfound freedom.
I need some stories with an updated look at the "not like other girls" girls. For one thing, I know many of them turned out to be autistic, trans, or both. I personally fall into the former category. Give me a story with a "Bad Cinderella" type character who learns not to look down on others but also, without a big makeover scene to become one. And that people can just co-exist. And preferably, have her be written by someone who understands the cultural context of the trope better. Oh, and maybe doesn't take a preexisting story to change the context of I think Janis Ian kinda fits this idea but we don't see enough of her at the end of the film, and the musical gives us a killer song that half gets it and half gets it wrong :/
This is not meant to be a condemnation of this kind of video, but maybe you could analyze some songs that you think ARE good or that you think are underrated? It would provide a good contrast to this kind of video - saying something is bad only goes so far when you don’t have concretely good examples to compare it to - and besides, humanity can always do with more positivity in life.
I think Bad Cinderella would have been a hell of a lot more effective if Cinderella was a man, or the Prince was a woman. Well, that, and rewrite most of the songs
I just need SOMEONE else to see this comment and hear how the chorus of the titular song has a very similar rhyme scheme to the chorus of We Are One from the Lion King. Okay thank you all that's it
Cinderella is about an abuse victim who finally disobeys her abusive parent and gets help in escaping the household. I'm sick of people thinking she's weak.
She escapes by commanding a small army of animals whose loyalty she gained through her kindness. People kinda forget that part…
Needing help is viewed as weakness. Which makes it harder for abuse victims to ask for the help they need
@@aacsmiles It could have been great if the writing took that and ran with it though. Like if they understand that OG Cinderella is an abuse victim who managed to remain resilient and kind in the face of the abuse she suffered. And then the musical starts with Bad Cinderella basically going, "screw that, I'm not gonna be docile and kind," and at first you think she's just mocking the original. But then as the musical goes on, you can realize that Bad Cinderella is still very much an abuse victim, it's just that she responds by lashing out and being defensive and closed off instead. Then the theme of the musical is that even though she wasn't a perfect victim who still acts nice in spite of it all, it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve the chance to escape, the chance to find love, and the chance to rediscover who she is when out of those circumstances.
@maplepainttube8158 oh that is so so much better if only they went in that direction
I would never describe someone in those circumstances that way, but we don’t hold Disney princesses to the same standards- in the same way that being chased through the woods by an ax murderer is a very unique and terrifying experience but also a boring cliché.
Cinderella has a lack of control or agency in her own narrative, which is just… damsel-in-distress. She wouldn’t be a weak person, but she’s definitely a weak character. Those are among her only traits- passive, docile, beautiful, romantic, kind. The 1950s ideal. You can bring a redeeming reading to the story, but it’s definitely working against the actual text. Like this just feels like getting mad that critiques of the 1950s Cinderella film aren’t taking your fanon into account.
I still remember when I read a comic on tumblr that was from Disney Cinderella's Prince POV. It was him staring at the glass slipper while thinking back on what Cinderella had told him during the night (we never learn what the prince and Cinderella talked about when they spent time together alone in the Disney movie), and it's all stuff that makes it clear, when put together, that Cinderella is stuck in an abusive home and this was her one glimpse of happiness and freedom. The prince, clutching the shoe, says that he needs to find her.
Just, that re-framing of the Prince's search for Cinderella, not being just because he's in love with her and wants to marry her, but specifically because he is scared that she's in a bad situation and desperately needs help, and he wants to see her again so he can help her, chef's kiss
Oh hell yeah, that's such a great interpretation of the prince. I would love to see an adaptation use this version of the prince.
you wouldn't happen to have a link or a blog name, would you?
This is canon now and I can't be told otherwise
@@citruslllad No, sorry:(
Do you think you could find the comic again
"I'm proud that I'm not like you, and a more than sky-high IQ"
Oh no. They turned Cinderella into a Redditor.
💀
Surprised they didn't rhyme "shock me" with "mock me"
You know, this concept could work pretty well for a villain song.
It doesn't even have to be a villain song. Plenty of musicals start out with their protagonist being somewhat flawed which is communicated in their introductory number, and then change for the better over the course of the plot. The problem isn't just that "Bad" Cinderella is acting insufferable, even if her personality were as great as the audience is supposed to think, that wouldn't make for very compelling theatre, because the character has no room to grow. The Disney version has this problem too, with their Cinderella being a little too perfect to make for a very compelling character, but it is telling that Bad Cinderella which is trying to set itself apart from "traditional" versions like the Disney movie is falling into the same trap.
@juliamavroidi8601 the message of this song is kinda similar to "Belle," in which Belle acts a bit hoity and sees herself as above the people in the poor town . . . Some of this is accurate to the book and movie, when Cinderella is what her stepfamily calls her to bully her, but it makes her stronger in the sense that the word is now practically synonymous with "princess" . . . It's moreso the vandalism that gets me: I don't see the original Cinderella ever doing something like that, or looking down on others for their appearance like this version does.
@@juliamavroidi8601 the animals were carrying the Disney version. Animation has that luxury.
"I hope I have upset you" quickly followed by "Don't judge me" is really... yup. There's a good coherent theme.
This is not Cinderella, This is Janis Ian the Musical 😂
But without the charm, humor, or fun of Janis Ian 😂
Carrie Hope Fletcher really does the best she can with this material, bless her.
She was really the west end's saving grace
Edit: she literally was The West's End's Saving Grace, screw ALW firing her (WITHOUT HER KNOWING) while also using her to profit off her Les Mis and Heathers fame, aswell as the rest of the cast, like this man is a slimebag
As someone who genuinely enjoys some of Andrew Lloyd Webber’s musicals (Cats and School Of Rock), I watched a bootleg of this musical and thought it was extremely mediocre. You’re not being "nit picky” or "a hater” when everything about this show has a lot of cringey aspects. Not to mention how horribly Andrew Lloyd Webber did the West End cast.
Nahhh, he fronting the west end. That's some mad disrespect on the three centuries of prestige
My biggest issue with Bad Cinderella as a musical is that when I listened to the cast recording, this song was actually the one I liked the most, not because I thought it was good, but because I found the chorus to be catchy. Yet, the only reason I did find it catchy was how it referenced "In my own little corner" from Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella melodically and I consider it to be a bad sign when the best thing about a song is that it references another song that is quite a lot better.
alw moment fr
Can media stop portryaing goth/punk/alt/scene or any other subculture girls in general alwayss as 'i'm not like other girls i'm so cool' types already.
feels like media thinks girls who're different from the nrom must all be doing so on purpose just to stick it to the popular princess-type.
For once just give me a goth lady who's like that just cause she likes to and doens't act unsuferable about being different and thus better than the stacies
Like obviously the alt scene comes with a level of separating yourself from the "norm" but it's so much more about self-expression and community. You don't have to hate everyone else to enjoy dressing goth and it's such a shame how much it comes with these sexist ideas that women can never be friends
Yeah the princess type is seen as the norm, basic, boring, since it's pushed onto women so much, so if you're outside that you must be so rebellious and a better woman or something, making the "rebel" one look good at the expense of the "basic" one. It's a crutch and I agree seeing more characters with unique style just cos they like it would be cool.
like it exists as a counterculture to the “mainstream” but the way its always portrayed its just. all counter none culture. if that makes sense.
Ingrid Third from "Fillmore" might come close. There are a couple of episodes that comment about her "emo/goth like" outfit, but she's generally pretty friendly.
There's also Creepie Creecher from "Growing Up Creepie." She's one of the sweetest goth girls I've seen in media.
Interesting! Admittedly, I don't really follow musical theatre, but on a surface level it seems like Bad Cinderella is trying to be Wicked without understanding what made Wicked work. Elphaba was also "not like other girls" but she was portrayed in a much more natural and likeable way. Compare this song to, say, Defying Gravity - the big breakout song where the protagonist declares herself literally above all the others who've caused her harm. It's a great moment because we have a chance to empathize with the character and want her to succeed. This version of Cinderella, by contrast, just comes across as abrasive.
Also that the “popular stuck up girl” Glinda both befriends Elphaba and the two share a heart-to-heart about why they are the way that they are. Glinda isn’t put down because she’s traditionally feminine and pretty; in fact, her removing Elphie’s glasses and encouraging her to be more expressive ends up giving her more confidence. All without sacrificing her more studious/modest style, too!
6:00 I think a better thing to put would be "crystal glass" at least in terms of meaning. Like expensive crystal glassware and it still hits the syllable count
oh, and like crystal glass slipper! really smart:)
Oooh, I like this one!
I was thinking stained or painted glass but crystal glass works so much better
That’s what I thought!! I feel like that would make more sense
Man, I would love to get see an adaptation of Cinderella where all those years abuse, she finally snaps. Have her be selfish and petty because she never lived for herself.
Team Starkid actually did a show with an idea kinda like that. It's called Cinderella's Castle and in the show, Cinderella takes revenge against her abusers. It may be released on UA-cam at some point, but I must say that the show was a great watch.
Why bother trying to update Cinderella at all? It’s just meant to be escapist wish fulfilment.
@@Punky_Brewski Generative AI detected, opinion rejected.
@@naruhodontit’s going on youtube early 2025 :)))
@@naruhodont I'm so excited for Cinderella's Castle
When I first heard the hook of the song (“call me Bad Cinderella, nasty girl, gutter rose”), I was like “I love this, it’s going to be so cheesy but still have a few moments of gold,” which is basically what you hope for from an ALW show. Like, “gutter rose” is such a solid phrase for the concept of characters mocking an alt version of Cinderella that I thought for sure it was a perfectly applied, real world folk saying or something. I would have loved for the rest of the song to have followed that kind of direction.
Bad Cinderella sounds like it’s made in Chat GPT
Yeah some lyrics kind of have Wish vibes
The "fairy tales/disney women are sexist/passive" stuff only got so prominent because it was easy Lazy Take fodder for Buzzfeed and lesser Cracked style listicles. It was never meant to be taken seriously by the actual companies and writers! It's food-for-thought for 13 year olds. This and the live-action beauty and the beast are so... undignified. ThereWillBeFudd has a good vid about Snow White on this topic
also actresses and celebrities. Keira Knightley, Kristen Bell, Demi Lovato, Alicia Keys, they all demonized Disney princesses. Ironically all except Alicia have been in Disney projects involving princesses.
I'm so mad that Carrie Hope Fletcher got stuck with this role. She was so happy to originate such an important role and work with Andrew Lloyd Webber, and this is what they give her to work with?!
fuck dude, 10 more minutes of surgically dissecting a musical ive never seen? sign me up!
This version of Cinderella could’ve worked for me if she was simply fed up with people insulting her for not being able to free herself.
Imagine Cinderella, fed up with both her family and the society that insults her for the terrible life she has, and now just doesn’t care about people’s opinions
That chorus is a form of musical torture with how it's an inverted play on the tune of "In My Own Little Corner". To paraphrase MST3K, never play a good song inside your bad song!
that was the first thing i noticed 😭 hearing it would just made me think that i could be watching a good adaptation of the story
Love that the description is just “It’s bad!!!” lol
While I'd want Disney to adapt their 1950 and 2015 films as a stage musical (perhaps with elements of the threequel), "Cinderella" is SUCH a crowded space in stage, given it's heartwarming message. We need different fairy tales to be adapted.
Disney did make a stage musical that’s loosely based on Cinderella III - it only appeared on their cruise line, though.
It was called Twice Charmed, and Calxiyn Cares Too Much recently made a video about it.
@@emilylike-the-soup2502 I know about that one, but I mainly meant one using the storyline from the firdt film (and the remake)--possibly with elements of the third film--rathee than the new story used on the cruise.
Not only that, they made the third version of the Rodgers and Hammerstein score (the Whitney Houston one).
@@Attmay They did adapt it,though I was mainly refering to stuff of their own creation.
Once again, I love how well you explain this even to people who don't have much or any musical knowledge.
"Church rock" was the perfect way to describe how that section just doesn't feel right.
Yeah, I cringe when I have to sit through a musical with this kind of music. Ever since boomers took over Broadway, we have gotten endless variations on this. It's why jazz became a niche genre: fewer songs that lent themselves to that kind of interpretation were becoming popular.
The fact that she's called "Bad Cinderella" implies that there's another, "good" Cinderella out there people are comparing her to
That's not a bad idea
I genuinely _despise_ how people and media like "Bad Cinderella" talk about women who choose to be trophy wives or girly girls, because it's very hypocritical, and completely antithetical to the point of feminism.
In the UK, they promoted the song Bad Cinderella relentlessly and I think the tune is really good. It’s super catchy. But the LYRICS from the first time I heard them I was like this is the most “not like other girls” nonsense and it put me off the whole show. Although it seems like I didn’t miss much lol.
5:32
I know this wouldn’t make much sense because of the syllables count.
But wouldn’t ‘stained glass’ houses make more sense in a metaphor sense?
Stained glass windows are pretty, artistic, beautiful, but are definitely not inmune to being broken, the glass is pretty fragile compared to the ones we use for many other things. I think it also fits the aesthetics they were going for for this story. It definitely fits better than plexiglass…
the fact that "im a bad cinderella mock my hair and my clothes" musically sounds eerily like my own little corner from r&h's cinderella 😭😭😭
As an Andrew Loyd Webber musical enjoyer (I regret to inform people that Cats the Musical is the BEST musical imo, please don’t take my opinions seriously), the worst part of bad Cinderella’s writing is that it’s so… bland? School of Rock, Cats, Jesus Christ Superstar, Phantom, Starlight Express, all of the songs have a specific voice and cadence and lyrical style to them that make all the characters stand out as individuals and make the musical’s individual pieces stand out from both the other songs in the show and other musicals. Dewy Finn sounds completely different lyrically and totally when he sings than the Phantom, or even in the same show, Skimbleshanks’ fast rhythmic patter says a lot about of him and is fundamentally different than Grizzabella’s slow mournful songs or Rum Tum Tugger’s seductive and peppy crooning and runs. The main crime of the titular song from Bad Cinderella (alongside its many many many other crimes), is that Cinderella’s musical style and tone is so… boring? I feel like the music says and shows nothing about her. She’s just… singing a pop song.
I expected better, but maybe it was my fault for having high expectations for this show tho.
You should listen to the transformation song. It just underlines how little ALW understood the assignment.
the sheet is unveiled to reveal that bad Cinderella commited a hate crime
please keep these up i love dissecting rhymes and why they appeal to me so much, i never thought much to inspect the way music adds to the experience until i stumbled upon your channel :)
loved the analysis! also you're so right about the church rock sound, lmao. for a character who's supposed to be a punk, I would've expected the music to be...punk. harsh! grungy! at least abrasive enough to match her personality! what we got feels so _toothless,_ just tonally dissonant in general.
I liked Bad Cinderella when I watched it, But I don't think you're a hater! Your Video (as always) is super well done, and full of cool information :D (It also explains a couple things about this song that don't hit quite as hard as they should)
Id be super interested in you talking about the other songs from Bad Cinderella, "I Know You" is my favorite song from the musical.
My mother and I LOVE Broadway and go to at least 3 shows a year. We did the todaytix ticket roulette and got tickets to bad cinderella.
First issue: it sucked. We left at intermission and the ushers were like “yeah we understand.” We have NEVER left a show like this before. It was just really that bad. It was just raaah raaah men without shirts and I’m not like other girls! Also it just sucked. I only liked the song between the queen and the stepmother, and honestly the worst song in any other musical is better than that (I’m looking at you, March of the Falsettos)
Second issue: no captions. I’m deaf and was physically unable to understand what they were saying unless my mom whispered into my hearing aids to tell me what was happening. I had this show chosen for me and was inappropriate that I paid for a show that was not disclosed to be inaccessible for me. This isn’t necessarily Bad Cinderella’s fault, but I wanted to let people know this happened so they can avoid it happening to them.
Could you please analyze more of Howard Ashman’s lyrics like Belle and Poor Unfortunate souls? I love how detailed your analysis is and how much I can learn about musical theater/ song structure 🥹
You cooked with this analysis.
wow, such actors and performance are wasted! Damn, it's sad.
And you, Astor, is brilliant as ever. There is plenty of musicals I'd love to hear your opinion about. How about *Love never dies* ?
Oof this song is that exact kind of bad that gets stuck in your head for a week - lyrics that are just kitty corner from making sense so your brain can't stop running over them
Do you only analyse lyrics ? Because I would be so happy if somebody was to make a video about the music during the "Cinderella flees the ball" scene in the 1950 animated movie. I think this music gets overshadowed by the movie's memorable songs, although it is so well done
While they're still focused on lyrical songs, she does dissect the instrumentals in some of the other musical critiques/praises she's done for things like the Tangled Series or the Live Action Remakes of several songs.
@@papershadow Thank you for the answer ! Then in that case I hope someday she makes an instrumental analysis on Cinderella's ball escape in the 1950 animated movie
As non native English speaker I always thought the saying abot glass houses was cause if your house is made of glass everyone sees what you are doing so all your secrets are out, so you cant be a hypocrite... Never thought it was because glass brakes lol
Can I just second everything you said from 9:19 - 10:05? Because you nailed everything I hate about the superficial Cinderella critique, the idea that stories with romance are inherently inferior, and the idea that leaning on other people makes you weak. I know some of it is a pendulum swinging too far in the other direction -- yes, women can and do have other ambitions in life outside of finding a man, and are capable of standing on our own feet and making our own decisions -- but it creates these really abrasive, unpleasant characters who aren't treated as being abrasive and unpleasant, and some actually questionable morals, as well as making it feel like being kind and caring is weak rather than strong.
All I’m saying is if you made a 16 hour video taking apart every second of this show I would attentively watch every second of it
why is cinderella dressed like a tiktok slytherin
Webbber nooooooooooooo.
What happened
I really enjoy your lyrical analyses!
In the year or so since I first heard this song I've been singing it with various made-up lyrics like "I am BAD Cinderella and I live in a hole / And I don't know how to FUNCtion"... I didn't realize until watching this video that the real lyrics constantly slide out of my head, and it has to be for all the reasons you lay out - they're sloppy!
Love your videos, thank you.
3:56 I wholeheartedly AGREE with this particular statement. I frowned when the entire tone of the song change to.. that
This song feels like the first draft like they had one idea for the rhyme scheme at the start, changed to another idea halfway through and didn't bother to go back to sync everything up 😭
"well, it's about to get even worse" hooked me I have to say! I know next to nothing about literary analysis-- or what ever this is called. It's a side of musical theatre analysis I've not come across until now. Very well done, and entertaining unlike the material discussed in this particular video, hahaha. New subscriber here!
Suggestion for songs to examine: the additional songs that were added for the Lion King and Frozen musicals. Frozen was the more egregious culprit imo, but there’s such a clear distinction in quality between what was written for the film versus what was added for the stage productions.
Looks like everyone should definitely go watch Cinderella's Castle instead!
Listening to these lyrics, it genuinely sounds like a Tumblr blog from 2015 set to music for some reason.
'i hope I have upset you' was way off the mark for a Cinderella character
CALXIYN MENTIONED ‼️‼️
Love your account and the Halifax mooseheads jersey!!!
Bought it in Halifax! Nova Scotia is gorgeous.
4:03 It’s interesting that you describe it as Church rock bc I’m 90% sure we’ve sung a son that had the same chord progression and tune as this bit
When it comes to lyrics review, I've always wondered what do you think about The Bifrost Incident by The Mechanisms
MECHANISMS MENTION‼️‼️‼️
I know it's out of topic for this channel. But I think it would be really interesting if you could analyse some Tom lehrer songs.
right on
Right on!
1:58 I'm not a native english speaker but I think "she's a loser, a loon, she's me/she's all me" could also work?
Also, great vid, I love watching people analyse musicals :33
That could work
If you ever want to tackle something as a palate cleanser, I don't think I have seen anyone look into Epic's lyrics with the eyes of a lyricist - music, the story in general, random reactions to the whole thing, analyzing how people interpreted the songs over different animatics, yes. But I haven't seen one look at the lyrics and the craft behind them in more detail. It might be an interesting project, but at the same time it could be much too big to tackle just like that.
On the topic of Cinderella rewrites; Bad Cinderella is not the best, but I am SO excited for Cinderella's Castle to drop on youtube next year, and I'd love to see a comparison
Cinderella was hand working and still was hard working. She just wanted to have fun . She didn't know she was fall in love
I liked the ALW Cinderella better when it was still called Starlight Express
It always kind of bugged me that ALW going on about wanting to make a new and different Cinderella. Like, Andy, you already did! It was all those things and actually good!
how have I watched so many of your videos and only just now learned you’re Calxiyn’s friend? That’s so cool, I love both your channels
I would also love to see you review the songs from Disenchanted 😂
Why do I want to see you do the Broadway version of this song now?😂😅
Everytime I hear the chorus of Bad Cinderella my brain feels like it should follow the melody of _"In My Own Little Corner"_ From Rodgers and Hammerstien's classic _Cinderella_ musical. Am I nuts, or does anyone else feel like?
If you're looking for recommendations on songs to dissect, 'Murder, Murder' from Jekyll and Hyde makes some truly bewildering choices. Highlights include
'To kill outside St. Paul's/Requires a lot of balls!'
and
'Murder, murder/Once there's one done/Murder, murder/Can't be undone/Murder, murder/Lives in LonDON',
among many, many other clunkers.
and then starkid did it so so so much better with Cinderellas Castle
I absolutely understand the critique of the lyrics and I'm fully on board with showcasing how goofy pick me/ not like other girls tropes are, BUT I do think that we should also acknowledge how misogynistic society is at MOST times and we shouldn't blame - in fact we should support - women/girls/non-men, who have been shunned or ridiculed and now express their disdain for the abusive world they live in. As much as I want to poke fun at these lines - and trust me, they don't feel punchy, useful or fun - I think that ignoring the glaring issue of heterosexual romance being a primary source of achievement specifically for women is the go to move here.
I really enjoy your content, have not missed a video and am excited for new projects, but I really think this is important to keep in mind - internalized misogyny is a HUGE problem and pick me's are just on the other face of the same coin, meaning they're not the problem, they're the symptom, arising from a larger issue.
I'm not trying to blame the women. The woman in this case doesn't exist. I'm blaming the men who wrote the show and think this is what women want.
@@astorrhymemaster I fully understand that. Maybe I misunderstood the intent of focus of your critique, otherwise I absolutely see it the same way. Hope you understood my point!
Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Internalized misogyny is a huge problem, and a lot of pickmeism is the result of it. You make good points.
That tone shift is Webber copying (slightly pitched down) "In My OwN little Corner" from R&H Cinderella
From what ive seen of the concept, it could be really cool if more foccused on cinderellas actual story as an abuse victim versus not like other girlisms. Bad Cinderella could be someone whos survived her house not like the actual Cinderella did, by holding onto kindness, finding companionship in unlikely places and not giving up her dreams but by becoming jaded as a mechanism to defend herself. Shes not going to judge others on trophy wives because shed probably do the same to get out of her situation. The romance and the ball could come of that with her and the prince actually falling in love while they plot together or something. Feels like a super wasted concept that could have been used for a kind look at the realities of abuse and trauma
I really appreciate your smart analysis.
The chorus reminds me SO strongly of a specific song, but I can’t remember the lyrics :/
"A no-one, a nutter, unwelcome" just keeping the a makes it so much better because it matches the un
Even the plexiglass line could have worked if the context around it were tweaked just a little bit. Like "Yeah, you're being a hypocrite, but you consider yourself insulated from all the consequences of your hypocrisy because you can afford to be like that."
Carrie Hope Fletcher is a great singer and a great actress, too bad she wasn’t given a good song to work with
Bad Cinderella, lyrics aside, sounds so much like We Are One from The Lion King 2 and it weirds me out.
I don't know about the full song, but i do like the snippets as snippets. Without context, my brain accepts it as i want it to be. Plus, i get more distracted by the instruments since they lead.
On a side note, love the Mooseheads jersey!
Got it during my vacation to Nova Scotia in May. We loved it there!
@@astorrhymemaster such a beautiful province! Glad you enjoyed your trip
I think the worst part is the person who wrote it also wrote 2 of the most acclaimed musicals, cats and phantom of the opera…. Like… hooooowww???????
Maybe you could check out an album based off of my favorite video game series songs of time
This song has bothered me for so long, I got inordinately excited when your video was recommended 😅 Bad Cinderella just sounds SO awkward to sing, nothing like ALW's classics.
so like the weird incongruent chorus is definitely because they spent it musically referencing in my own little corner, right?
What do you think of the rewrite of the lyrics? The version with Linedy Genao? I personally thought it was worse, though there were some good changes.
People are really looking at the classical Princesses (Cinderella and Snow White were abused, Aurora was taken away from her parents as an infant to be protected from Maleficent who openly wanted to kill her, Ariel was being held back by an overprotective father who was scared to lose his daughters the way he lost his wife, Belle was mocked by her entire town because she really was not like other girls and they hated that she was well-learned but the Beast/the Prince loved that about her, Jasmine wanted to be free from her overly protective father who wanted her to marry men who only wanted her for status and not for who she was, and Pocahontas' entire characterization was misrepresenting in her movies because I'm fairly certain they were reading John Smith's creepy diaries instead of asking her decendants for help to make a historically accurate film) and say "these women actually aren't oppressed and all they wanted were men". like no. The men were a nice bonus or they came with that sense of newfound freedom.
I need some stories with an updated look at the "not like other girls" girls. For one thing, I know many of them turned out to be autistic, trans, or both. I personally fall into the former category. Give me a story with a "Bad Cinderella" type character who learns not to look down on others but also, without a big makeover scene to become one. And that people can just co-exist. And preferably, have her be written by someone who understands the cultural context of the trope better.
Oh, and maybe doesn't take a preexisting story to change the context of
I think Janis Ian kinda fits this idea but we don't see enough of her at the end of the film, and the musical gives us a killer song that half gets it and half gets it wrong :/
Given the news of their breakup, I'd love it if you could analyze the lyrics of black midi's bmbmbm
This is not meant to be a condemnation of this kind of video, but maybe you could analyze some songs that you think ARE good or that you think are underrated? It would provide a good contrast to this kind of video - saying something is bad only goes so far when you don’t have concretely good examples to compare it to - and besides, humanity can always do with more positivity in life.
I have done that and people do not watch those videos. But I will continue to make them.
I recommend you check Mean Girls The Musical for an other episode of bas lyrics that musical is really something
If you're in the mood to highlight some AMAZING lyrics and want to redeem Dave Zippel, look at the musical City of Angels. It's miraculously good.
You should review Life is Sweeter from Descendants 4. Something feels off about the lyrics and I need to know why.
You should analyze Razia's Shadow: A Musical
The sky-high IQ part is so cringe to me that sounds like a 4chan user or redditor would use😭😭
I think Bad Cinderella would have been a hell of a lot more effective if Cinderella was a man, or the Prince was a woman. Well, that, and rewrite most of the songs
It took me a solid 5 minutes to realise this wasn’t about that Romeo and Juliet jukebox musical, which- is also very bad, in a verysimilar way
& Juliet?
@@user-vf6bd7ke6x that’s it! Thanks
I just need SOMEONE else to see this comment and hear how the chorus of the titular song has a very similar rhyme scheme to the chorus of We Are One from the Lion King. Okay thank you all that's it