SECOND fixing + my tips on LIVE installation | Thomas Nagy
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2019
- Doing a second fix at a customer's house in central London. Used some of my new Bosch gear and had to keep a close eye on traffic wardens. Moving on to a job in the city for a commercial rewire later in the evening. Thought that was a good opportunity to give you some tips on doing live installations.
Link to ITS Vaunt spade bits:
www.its.co.uk/pd/30310-16-Pie...
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Thomas Nagy
WARNING:
This video is for entertainment purposes only. If you use the information from this video for your own projects then you assume complete responsibility for the results.
There's a point there at the end about safety - working whilst tired will lead to mistakes.
Thank you Thomas Nagy, your discussion about bank security has made me seriously rethink my plans for the big bank heist I was planning with my crew of hardened criminals. I can't go into details but, pardon the pun, safe to say your insider knowledge has avoided egg on our faces... "A bank has a big front door and 66 doors and then a big wad of cash"...CHECK ✔✔ Now our plan can't fail, thanks again...🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
General Disarray I’ve already robbed it, it was actually only 36 doors. The final door had a steering wheel lock on it.
I worked in Melbourne for 6 years as a spark. Loved the lack of rings over there. 16A radials with generally 10 double sockets the circuit. Never had any issues with overload. Now I'm back in the UK and fighting against the ring final circuit again.
You're absolutely right about ring mains - they are a waste of bloody time & effort. Love your videos mate - keep up the good work!
I like you choose to buy Bosch tools as I am using them also and your videos became even more pleasant to eyes when I see you working with my loved brand tools.
you're correct about security layers. Example in case, a fence isn't supposed to stop someone, it's supposed to slow them down. I had my 4wd attempted stolen a few times(immobilizer stopped them), once i got a steering lock they stopped, its a visual deterrent.
We mainly install Exhibition Electrics and were working Live most days , sometimes outside in the mud and rain .
As you say the main thing is Don’t get complacent and keep things tidy , every circuit that we install is a Radial ( each Exhibition Stand gets its own 30 Ma 16 Amp Feed for a Socket / Light )
Hi Tom, totally agree on ring circuits, they are more trouble than they’re worth. Also the other thing with live working is fatigue. Your points on live working are spot on. I work in the food industry, you can’t just switch a part of the factory off just because you have to add a socket to a DB. Fatigue is one of the factors I keep in mind....
Keep up the good work!
Big agree on the radials! We install 32 amp 4/1.5 T&E radials ...6-8 socket outlets per radial...third of the tests compared to ring tests!
Hager Sollysta is my go-to accessories.
Once again fantastic video. Regarding the IS0 9001 Audit I am qualified in quality management. It may be scary but from my experience the auditors are helpful. So long as you have all the documentation, records and can prove it you will be fine. Also good to see I’m not the only one working till 9 at nights
glad you mentioned complacency , sp , very important
just finished 10 new builds all radials no need for rings totaly agree
Agree with you totally with regard to Ring Circuits... As does John Ward! They have had there time and now Radials make far more sense most of the time. YES, I do subscribe, and it's great that you do read the comments (though very rarely respond hehe) but I will say again that I really appreciate your videos especially as you show them from a real world perspective such as 'working live' and also the risks you have taken personally and financially to get where you are. Keep it up and thank you :)
That looks like broadgate tower, had many missions trying to get parked in there when the company I worked for looked after that building!
Good tips from Thomas on working live. The only thing I would add is to think about how you can avoid any distractions when working live.
And swear loudly and experimentally at any person who should know better that disturbs you
Nice one Tom. Keep 'em coming. 👍
Great video Tom, I feel your pain man 😁 rings are old hat from post war days to save copper, it was hard to come by and expensive. Also everyone had electric heaters, boilers, cookers, in the day so had to spread the load and use smaller cable in a ring to avoid volt drop. 20A radials are my option these days too. Agreed with all the working live comments be aware, alert, non complacent, understand what you are doing and wear goggles for any potential flash if something shorts. Hot melted copper in your eyes isn't pleasant 👀😉
Try putting two tickets on your van!
No don't they will probably just tow it
Wago, Spax and Knipex also do an LBOXX system which will attach directly to all your Bosch kit. Top tip get the trolly that goes with it and save your back.
Very interesting video. Thank you for this.
i worked live last night fitting a socket and got my 1st shock!
Great video, I’m very interested in commercial side so keep this content coming also. Bosch boxes are all Sortimo same as your van racking system, you can get in van charging system to fit your racking if you haven’t already seen it or have it fitted.
Didn't know that!
I got Bosch 12 v system and its brilliant. Want to go up to 18 v but its expensive here in Sweden. Love watching other countries electricity.
Sortimo L-Boxxs are amazing!🥰
Thomas "oh that reminds me" Nagy
I've done the Bosch stacking box system, now sold them as got too much agg and take up too much space. Now have the power tools in a bag. Much easier.
Like I said another good session watching Tom 😎
Another nice video Tom. I totally agree in using radials over rings. I often will run multiple 4.0mm T&E radials on 20A or 32A circuits as required and also the stranded cores of the 4.0mm make 2nd fixing so much easier.
It does make for a larger consumer unit if I get carried away with the amount of circuits I install (Most of my clients live in large houses with a lot of circuits due to the amount of home automation I install) but double stacking two 18th Ed split load boards on wholesaler deals is a lot cheaper than installing a consumer unit full of RCBOs. It does give you 4 RCD protected banks of circuits as well as extra room for RCBOs is needed and easier to make sure there are some spare ways.
I see you have the Bosch work light. Thinking of getting one of those myself. What do you think of it?
How you finding bosch tools, any chance of quick review was looking at some good deals on them lately
And also any ideas on cheap and cheerful laser levels.? 🤔
Rings in Republic of Ireland in the kitchen are gone and have to use 2 20amp radials and the t&e cable has the earth sleeved already :)
Hi Anthony, any idea how the radials should be distributed? Is it 1 radial for counter top sockets and another for appliances like washing machine, tumble dryer, dishwasher etc?
Full day then Tom , one of the best security devices is a disk lock on steering wheel , makes the scroates go to the next easier van to rob , tip on van , cover the vin number on the screen with paper , stops thieves with scanners getting security details off manufacturers detailed sites to make keys and bypass the immobilizer system
An actual UA-camr with decent interesting videos! Love binge watching your videos and your content has come on so much :) . Keep up the good work 👍
Great job again
Hey Tom, spade drills are great, but they get dull over time especially if you hit a screw or nail. Just sharpen them with a grinder and they’re as good as new.
Tom, love your vids😀
Prefer radials. The only benefit to a ring final is that it can be split and de-rated into two 16A radials should one leg have a fault, allowing for minimal disruption to building fabric.
Sometimes that is a very important benefit, esp 20 yrs later. Nobody thinks of the future anymore though. :(
As a fellow bosch enthusiast, the sight of all your new bosch tools is turning me on...🤤
Keep the ring. Especially the kitchen. Once finished you get a fault you have no opertunity to downrate. You get a fault between the first and second socket. There's no just remove a leg and drop a smaller CB in the board. It's tear the kitchen to bits time.
Good point, done that a few times (esp if the kitchen has solid floors or tiles/laminate. Thinking of the guy after you
Don't worry mate am already subscribed 😂
NWS cutters are excellent & really sharp. I wouldn't normally refuse to fit customer supplied equipment, except when it's Security systems or CCTV will never fit customer supplied.
ISO9001 should be a doddle. Just document all your procedures. Take the auditor through them, have examples of each activity to show him/her. E.g get a supplier invoice, show how you process it on your accounting system. Same with any other operation you do. People who have never dealt with auditors before seem to fear them, they are actually helpful. Unless your back office functions are a total mess I don't think you'll have a problem. Biggest pain is the bill you'll get for certification & audits.
I like the steering lock explanation.
Armeg 3-piece nailproof auger bits is brilliant.
Hi tom dewalt also has the stackable tool boxes love your vids keep up the good work
I notice you have a "network radio" installed onto the ceiling above your mirror in the van. Which one is it? How do you find it? Do you use more than just the radio element?
@tomthespark the spade bit set looks neat but if you've tried the bosch blue self drilling ones you'll never go back! more expensive but worth it!
Thomas is the best name in the world.
regarding rings and radials, agreed however I always put the kitchen on a ring and extend a couple of socket cables a few metres down to the floor and back again to allow for sockets in the cupboards especially when the customer hasnt quite decided on the final layout. easier doing on first fix than after and keeps it on the ring rather than spurring off. If they end up not being used then a 32a jb will sort it or you have the option to pop a couple of socket in cupboards for utilities. Although diversity applies etc I find it a simple and good practice that take no time and little cost.
How do you feel about the ledderman earth claw clamps. Did my AM2 a couple of months ago and used them for the first time in the test center and thought they were brilliant...
We recently had a ISO9001 audit for our glass/metal working company i can honestly say the health and safety part of it was a nightmare
I first heard about rings in your videos, as we don't have them here in Slovakia. The idea behind it was nice for the day, but it seems to be outdated for me.
It's the same in Hungary and Czech Republic, and most likely the majority of Europe...
Ring final circuits are a British invention and have never made it far. The Irish did use them for a while but never really liked them, and there might be some small countries using BS 1363 sockets that also use ring final circuits, but definitely a small minority in the greater scheme of things.
I've heard rumours that the Eastern Germans used rings as well but 10 amp rings with 2.5 mm2 aluminium don't make any sense at all.
Ooooh Tom I thought you'd have went for the Milwaukee Packout boxes.
YES, there's someone else who thinks ring finals should be consigned to the history books (maybe kitchens aside, but even then I'm dubious.) They cause added time & complications when testing, and they can easily end up in an unsafe / potentially overloaded state without any warning (either from one leg becoming disconnected somehow, or some idiot thinking they can just run an unfused spur for 5 extra double sockets.)
Their original purpose was just saving copper, and depending on the location of the sockets they don't do that most of the time these days either. Current capacity I hear you cry? Bleh. No-one runs space heaters anymore, 32A is overkill in this day and age, an equivalent 2.5mm radial on 20A is just fine for nearly everyone. What, you do want to run space heaters? Sod it, just run extra radials, or run a 4mm radial if you must have that 32A on one circuit for whatever reason.
I really don't see a good reason as to why they're still used, beyond old habits dying hard. Feel free to flame me though... I'm fully expecting it 😉
Not to mention it can become dangerous even if installed correctly, for instance. A ring final, if you plug 4 heaters into 2 sockets close to the board, the current is going to travel through 1 2.5 overloading it.
There is a fair few problems with rings.
Mainly that it needs 4 fuses to ensure that we aren't overloading any of the cables within it. (1 fuse for each of the two live wires, and then there needs to be 2 more fuses for the neutral wires.) Though, the British electrical standards states that 1 fuse for both live wires is how one should do it. I can only consider that a risk for electrical fires to be fair.
But rings have 1 advantage, it requires 2 electrical faults for a socket to go dead. So in places where the socket needs to be reliably working 24/7 year round, then a ring does have that as a tiny advantage. (and preferably using 4 fuses to ensure no overloading of any of the conductors...)
@@todayonthebench Your advantage is actually a serious disadvantage - you don't know the circuit is faulty until it potentially fails with a fire. Secondly fuses on neutrals are an incredibly dangerous idea, the circuit is still live - but appears dead to the user.
They made sense when circuits (and protection) were expensive, you'd run a backbone around the perimeter of your house and spur off of it for fixed and portable appliances. However homes are rarely wired like that these days as big consumer boards are cheap and we all expect greater "selectivity" so the garden lighting doesn't take out everything. However I think they are a useful as its much easier often to work with 2.5mm cables than 4mm (if you need the power) and makes some sense in kitchen appliances (grid switches) and workshops.
I think in general electricians should be being encouraged to think should I be installing a ring final and more often than not elect not too.
@@acat6821 Yes, very much so (assuming those sockets are adjacent on the ring of course.) That reminds me of another advantage of using 20A rather than 32A in general - that being that almost all double sockets are only rated for a total continuous current of 20A, not 26A. If the breaker is only rated for 20A, then you guarantee that you can't overload that socket.
I agree that rings aren’t really necessary in most cases. I suppose the main positive of having a ring is if you get a damaged cable at some point then you can always split it into 2 radials quite easily
i have only run a ring once ever, and we just left the one end loose but marked in the fuseboard just as a futureproofing as it was outdoor lights, so we had the possibility to do as if we had split a ring into two radials. but radials themselves are a strict no go here.
Do you know that love islands on at 9!!!
Working with live wires is something one ends up doing every now and then. The most important part is to know what one is doing, ensuring that one does it right, and actually taking care. The list at 11:30 is a good set of things to keep in mind.
In regards to rings and radials. My main problem with a ring is that it can technically wear itself down to being two radials, since connections can corrode/loosen over time. On a radial one simply gets a non working socket, on a ring, the socket works fine, but each leg of the broken ring is now not properly fused, since the two live wires shares the same fuse... If they each had their own, then a broken ring would continue operating like two radials. Though, we could still have over current on the neutral wires, so they too should likely have fuses, and at that point, we have 4 fuses for a ring to properly ensure that we aren't overloading our cables. With the same 4 fuses we could have 4 radials instead.
In the end, the main advantage of a ringt is the fact it needs 2 electrical faults for it to stop working, compared to a radial that only needs 1 fault, so for places where reliability is key, a ring isn't a bad idea. Though, a ring with only one single fuse on it is nothing more then potential for electrical fires in my honest opinion.
Keep the good work up
The Bosch stacking cases are Sortimo I believe. Must integrate with the van racking quite nicely
Hilti are doing similar with their smaller tool cases now. One nice touch with the Hilti ones is if you stack them opposite ways round, you can pick up 2 with one hand. At 20 quid a case for the 'consumables' ones... we have about 6 of them on the van "first fix screws and grommets and rawlplugs', 'cable clips and crampets' 'bushings and various conduit bits', 'plate screws and wagos' .. 'more wagos'.. etc
Seemed a bit silly at first, but it's made carrying the lot in from the van on a big job, easier.
one case with a 'few of everything' would be ideal for the smaller jobs. Must suggest this :D
Love the ring radial debate! I was always for radials, there was some draft guidance released to no longer fit rings but was removed. Of course in Kitchens, best practice is to fit a radial for appliances (hob/oven oven on it's own radials) and the sockets on another radial.
ISO9001 - it's all about improvement if you use it properly. Most people see it as a paperwork exercise. There are some great books on Amazon for making the most of it.
Cheers, if you can recommend a good book I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
@@thomasnagy sure, the one I got the most out of was Implementing Iso 9001:2015: Thrill your customers and transform your cost base with...
by Jan Gillett. I did an introduction to ISO9001 with the The British Assessment Bureau which was just a day course, it was a great intro too.
Wow that title sounds thrilling, can't wait ;-) No seriously, thanks for the recommendation, cheers!
In a living room or a sleeping room a radiant circuit fused with a B16A MCB is absolutely sufficient for that single room, you could even put the lighting into this circuit. What kind of appliances do you have in that rooms? TV, a receiver, maybe an audio system, radio clock and that's it. Here in Germany mostly the standard. And take a look what size of fuse is inside of the BS1363 plugs of the appliances you use in that rooms, my guess is mostly 3A.
Only in kitchens you need much more power. Here we use several dedicated circuits in the kitchen. The kitchen cooker and oven is connected three-phase (L1 and L2 for the cooker, L3 is for the oven), this three-phase circuit is fused with a tripple B16A MCB (sometimes three single B16A MCBs).
The other possible failure by an amateur could be creating a new ring inside of the existing ring. The thing is, it is a nice possibility to create a circuit for a high demand with less copper. Remember, it was introduced when there was a copper shortage back in the days. One ring for all outlets in the whole house, but afaik now these days some people want such a ring for almost every room.
And the problems with the Knipex are caused by the holes for stripping wires. That's the reason why I don't use them, you can't use the full cutting capacity because of the stripping holes. For cutting a whole cable I would also recommend using a pair of cable shears. It's much easier and you don't crush the cable, I only use the diagonal cutters for single conductors.
"Venomous vulture" 😂 love it 👍
Schnieder lisse accessories are top stuff. Backed out screws, 2 sets of screw covers (if you bother with them) and feel really solid. I think they look nicer in domestic than mk too. Mk looks too officey for my liking.
Are screw covers/ plugs not a pita if you need to take them out
Good work
MK sockets still seem pretty decent quality. The consumer units are often garbage though, I have 2 in my house that never line up properly, and have had 2 new (expensive) MK RCBO's fail dead short, for no reason (no fault on the circuit) so it does seem anecdotally like MK are on a downward spiral from what they once were
A lot of MK products are still made in the UK, which will put the price up but also supports our economy. We don't have much manufacturing industry left. The newer Schneider boards are good, and the accessories seem well-thought-out too, with similar features to MK like angled terminals and backed-out screws.
What about Crabtree sockets...are they not pretty good quality...also havent seen TOM fit any sockets with USB outlets
I work in smart meters where do you stand on cables not double insulated going into blocks ect and cutting seals to go into the dno not docking anyone out would just like to know what you do
Hey Thomas! Ever heard of CC 22 cable cutters? I know you lot mostly use flat cables over there but for the times I've used it on flat wires it worked great. Cuts cables/wires like butter, almost whatever the size.. Google "CC 22 kabelsax", every sparky in Sweden I know uses it, side cutters are so old school.
Great content!
Yeah they are avaliable here, I have a few, as they can also be used to strip or dress cables, just need to check em for a good circle shape,
Here in the UK we use ring mains because unlike most of the world, UK plugs are fused, so down rating them to 13A at the most. So if the kettle develops a fault it should just blow the plug fuse & not take out the whole circuit, although most cases it just trips the RCD. Yes, the UK regs are way over the top in a lot of the cases, go to Australia & they don't use back boxes just float the cable down the wall & straight into the socket, single core cables to lights from the switches, sockets next to the bathroom sink, but it works & it doesn't kill people unlike everything else there.
That's not the reason for using rings, rings are the reason for using fuses..
It's actually the other way around: we use fused plugs (to protect the flex) _because_ we have ring final circuits. Designed in conjunction with each other by the Electrical Installations Committee between 1942 and 1947 when the first mandatory standard was published.
Have you invested in the Bosch 18v, 10 ltr hoover? Nice bit of kit, comes in very handy.
Hi Tom I'm an electrician and I think ring finals are a good idea as long as they are connected correctly ie the ring isn't broken but I think 32 amp mcbs rating them are a little high ring finals give 2 paths to the wiring so If an earth gets broken at least its connected the other direction where as a radial looses the earth half way along there giving no earth the the last sockets after the bad connection in the socket or spur etc
I think the ideal option would be 25 amp mcbs made by the manufacturer there by protecting the 2.5mm cables within the rating
In maritime industry we use radial for everything. Way easier and way simpler. But we don't have neutral. Just 110V on each line. No ground.
Bosch do a collapsible trolley which you can carry your stacking cases on.
Im training to be an electrician, can u work on electrics with power on or does it need to be turned off EVERY time.
Tom can we get a review of all your tools in the van? and run thru why you chose them above other? Love from New Zealand bro! :)
ISO9001 can be difficult. My advice would be to hire an internal auditor, they can save you so much time by pointing out how you need to improve and document your processes etc before you get the main audit.
We are working on different fields, but in general ISO9001 is just documentation, documentation and documentation. If _everything_ you do is written down, you're golden. If you could hand over any job to anyone who'd just came out from school and they could do it based on instructions, there's nothing to worry about.
I'm not completely sure how's it in your field, but it might be useful to scope the audit beforehand with auditor if there's some areas that you think aren't super important to potential customer and auditor agrees. It depends a bit of the auditor, but you might be able to go with dry-runs first, asking what'll they ask or if they have some standard packages that they follow that could be made available.
Cheers for the insight, pal!
With you on the radials..il be moving more in that direction.
Used MK for years. Try hager solysta. Never looked back
Have come across alot of mk sockets with a neutral fault on the left hand side outlet. Very strange.
I’m sure it’s a big no no leaving tools above head like that, when you was working at the end.
I just find it so fascinating that ring circuits are still a thing. Maybe it's because I'm from the US and we've never used ring circuits, almost always radials.
I did live in East Anglia for three years in the late 80's; but I was too young to know or care about how the power was wired, just that we needed transformers to run all our big US electronics. We had UK wash and dryer, stove, oven, refrigerator, and UK television; but also US television set, VCR, stereo, and computers.
The one thing I'll give to the British power system, the three pin plugs and sockets are better as far as safety and redundant protection.
One day you'll discover metres and kilos
I found every house that I've gone into to do work in and they've got a ringing there doesn't matter what room I'm in I will trip it that's why I think it should be all radius
Ring is more lickley for fault but you can split it to two radials
i worked for a company where every socket \ fcu
oom light (per light switch) was on its on breaker
Extravagant, but i bet it will make some electrician fault finding in a few years punch the air and go buy a lottery ticket :)
If such boards were cheaper, I'd do it in my own house lol
We are not allowed ring circuits in kitchens anymore probably 10 years in Ireland.
I had our main house fuse melt. For some reason. It was the 60amp main fuse/ service bit before the circuit board. It happend 2 days after new electric shower was fitted
Probably overcurrent, my guess is the installer didn't calculate the maximum demand of the installation and this is the consequences of it.
Shower could be 3/4 of that easily. Not much room left when using leccy heating too
If a customer was building a kitchen and they tell you to put 6 downlights in the ceiling and they tell you the position, and you notice there is no light above the kitchen sink and you think it would make more sense to either place the lights differently or add some extra to improve lighting over the sink, would you suggest that?
I only use GIRA system 55 switches and sockets. Don't know about availability on England, though.
They look nice, I had a look and www.myknxstore.co.uk/ sells them, including UK sockets. Not sure if they're a European size though.
Also www.gira.com/en_GB/gebaeudetechnik/produkte/internationales_sortiment/british-standard.html
Hey was watching your video and I noticed you did not earth the back box or at least I think you did not earth the back box, what's your view on earthing the back box as I was told if the metal back box has solid lugs for the screws you don't have to earth it.
Exactly right , if a metal box has 2 movable lugs earth it. If one of your lugs are fixed and using it to fix the accessory then it's not required if the socket has a earth running along the screw points.
I'm currently doing a apprenticeship in electrical & mechanical engineering (maintenance Technician) working with robots and other stuff that's not as cool as it sounds!
Anyway if we work with anything over 24v without locking out, tagging and recording tests to ensure the cobnet or device is dead we can litterly be sacked on the.spot!
Obviously most of the stuff is 3 phase live but it's the same regardless
It all depends on context. If you're in ONE company/facility that chooses that rule, they are awesome and stick with them !!!
I trained in a similar environment (there were other departments but we, (estates and facilities as it's now known) outranked them all. If your computer's essential put a UPS on it) But as a contractor, like thomas, you get called to many diverse scenarios. Isolate everything is the ideal, but often it just cannot be done (the customer will tell you to bugger off). Its fine to say 'then yep i'll bugger off', but you'll go out of business
Mr Nagy - what's the storage box you have at 08:30 (the black one with blue handle) and is it any good? I'm looking for a new set! Cheers pal!
Sortimo- the guys who racked out the vans
@@dg2908 To be more specific it's a T-BOXX. Which is an odd choice, seeing as it's the same size as an L-BOXX and doesn't mate with them, and the L system already has the i-BOXXes which rack with Ls..
sup my guy. starting electrical school in sept. love watching ur vids! one thing tho u gotta ditch the bosch and go all red with milwaukee :)
doubt that'll happen considering hes not long bought 2 sets of them lol
Red? you mean Hilti?
I once visited milwaukee. Nice city
I would double check the current carrying capita of a 2.5 red method 101 very tight for 20a
What makes you say 101?
I may have said try leaving a ticket on your van lol didn’t think they would multiply 🤣 just shows how busy the ticket wardens are to have time to check other people’s work. Great video as always 😊 get some better batteries lol
I’m blaming that ticket on you! 😂
thomas nagy 🤣
Just stick the reg number in their machine and it will tell if vehicle has had a ticket recently...saves looking at any ticket on the vehicle
Do electricians use k-pipes in England?
Make sure anything you include in your ISO9001 documentation doesn't make more work for you. Once you've got the accreditation, it applies to all your work, so minor bits of doco, can add huge amounts of work.
In Hungary we have 16 amp radials
Watching your video in the middle of a power cut lol
Hello thomas liking the channel but is a cb mic in your van or something a bit more technical.
What's the brand and model of your tester that you use to check your jobs?
I think he uses a Metrel MFT.
Have a look at click accessories Tom, good quality.