Lugers Under Versailles: The 1926 Simson P08
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- / forgottenweapons
www.floatplane...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenw...
Simson & Co of Suhl was chosen as the sole contractor legally allowed to manufacture and rework military small arms for the German military under the Versailles treaty. They acquired the P08 Luger tooling from the Erfurt arsenal, and began small volume P08 production in 1925. They would product just under 12,000 pistols total between 1925 and 1934. The first 600 were made with 1925 chamber dates, and the first 100 or so in 1926 were also dated, but then the markings changed to a blank chamber for the rest of the production run. These were all Army and police pistols, with no commercial production.
This particular example is an interesting outlier, with a 1926 chamber date but a serial number (424) that should be in 1925. It is likely that this gun was set aside for quality control reasons (it also has an RC stamp on the frame) and not completed and marked until early 1926.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
From small farming machines, to Lugers and AKs, to being the GDRs largest motorbike manufacturer, to being bankruped by the fall of the Berlin wall and iron curtain. Simsons company history would make a great ‘forgotten company’ video.
its far from forgotten. suhl was rich because of the simson brothers. west germany pushed simson into bankrupcy litery havin workers destroy parts and maschines
Thank you for your comments, I had just asked whether it was related to Simson Motorcycles and then I noticed your comment.
Lpp
Wait, this Simson is basically the same Simson that my cousin uses to ride around his village? Small world...
@@DitzyClouds Yeah it’s a shame that Simson isn’t around anymore..
Gustlov was murdered by a guy named Frankenfurter in 1936 with a .25 caliber Velo Dog type revolver.
Lobe Simpson. He certainly had the lobes for business.
I learn so much about my countries history in a American gun channel :-) ... thanks
Even after all these years, I'm surprised that Ian still thinks we might actually get bored listening to an entire history of a gun
"He could read the phonebook, and make it sound... interesting."
-Morgan Freeman
"He could read the phonebook, and make it sound... interesting."
-Morgan Freeman
Yes, Ian is a silly boy.
Considering C&Rsenal videos often run for more than an hour, and occasionally need to be split into two parts, there is clearly a demand for such content.
The Simson brand survived until the 1990s as the moped maker of East Germany. Many of their famous "Simson Schwalbe" mopeds are still in use today.
Quite good too, given what the Soviets permitted East Germany to make.
Given that they were from east germany, where any kind of civilian technology product was already updated before even being introduced in the market, this is impressive
And don't forget the S50/51! They are arschteuer today. :D
@@rrphantom8194 Simson Mopeds are really still quite sought after in Europe (especially Germany). They’re not only build very sturdily, but they’re exceptionally easy to repair (or tune) and very reliable, and spare parts are still manufactured by another company that also build GDR mopeds (MZA). Now the main reason that they’re still so popular in Germany is the fact they’re allowed to go faster than regular 50ccm mopeds are in Germany. The reason for that is that the GDR allowed 50ccm to go up to 60 km/h, while west Germany only allowed them to go up to 45 km/h (which it still does). When the Berlin Wall fell and Germany unified, there was a legitimate concern for thousand of these mopeds that became worthless overnight since you couldn’t operate them on west German roads. So the German government created a exception, and to this day only GDR 50ccm mopeds are allowed to drive up to 60km/h while non-GDR mopeds are only allowed to go up to 45km/h. Fun fact: any vehicle that has the capability to drive at least 60km/h is allowed onto the autobahn, so Simson mopeds are technically the only two stroke 50ccm vehicles that are perfectly legal to use on the Autobahn (which would be next to suicidal, but can be fun in a group, we did it once for about 5KM with our Simsons and I was 99% sure I’d die)
@@nickrollstuhlfahrerson8659 Not quite true on the Autobahn part: You have to do more than 60 to be allowed on it, while the S50 goes 60. So, no, you cant legally drive it on the Autobahn, and it would be suicidal to do so anyway.
Fun Fact: Simson, J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Walther, C.G. Haenel and many more weapon/gunsmith factorys were founded in Suhl solely because of the high-quality iron found in the region around Suhl. At this time steel quality was heavily depending on the quality of the raw iron it was made from and so many gunsmiths have settled there in order to have the best steel for their barrels. If you one day happen to find yourself in Suhl, I recommend visiting the ‚Suhler Waffenmuseum‘ (weapon museum of Suhl), it contains many informations about the history of this region which has given birth to many important companies.
Its sad how many of the weaponmakers went extinct due to soviet occupation
@@gunrelatedvids It is true that many companys were regulated to the ground under soviet occupation and many of their production capacities were taken as repair payments and sent to the USSR. It was also due to the gun laws in east germany that there was only a small civilian market. But some of the companys were founded again later or survived the time of the German seperation. Unfortunatley tho Simson didn't survived the privatization of the VEB Ernst Thälmann, which it was part of while the DDR lasted.
The Simson family story here ended badly, but not nearly as badly as I thought it would at the beginning. That's .... somewhat positive
If, 'OK we'll take everything you have and you get to continue to live because we aren't really paying attention yet' is somewhat positive, then my definition of "somewhat" needs revising
@@benalla39 compared to what I expected the story's ending to be, yeah it's somewhat positive
@@Tfaonc same here, I was expecting an "accident" of some sort to happen to them.
Yeah, when Ian said it was a Jewish family in the 1920s and 30s, I was expecting something way more tragic.
@@benalla39 I'd say the Simsons got off pretty well, keeping their freedom and lives and whatnot 🤷♂️
It was the opposite of dull ian. We love listening to this stuff
Hear, hear!
Was on a range back in the 80s when the range safeties identified a worn out barrel on an M249 SAW.
As a demonstration so we would know if ours became worn out they linked about 15 rounds of tracer and fired it from the center of the firing line.
Went everywhere like a bad Roman candle.
Don't worry Ian, your videos are never dull. If anything we love the extra tidbits of history about the factories and designors when possible.
The video wasn´t dull at all. Such videos are the reason why I love this channel.
Would be cool to see a video on the 1960s Mauser American eagle Lugers imported by interarms. Nice little niche Luger.
Forgotten Weapons has covered those before. Back in 2014, I believe
I think those were the original American eagles from the 20s. The interarms were made by Mauser in the 60s & 70s . I have one in my grandmothers estate with a 6 inch barrel and thought it would be cool to learn a bit more about it like witch tooling was used, production numbers, etc.
Likewise, I wonder which set of tooling was used to make those later stainless steel Lugers from Mitchell and other companies.
Ian, Forgotten Weapons and the word dull are not synonymous. You bring light to stories that most of us would never come across otherwise. Your work is a treasure.
Not dull at all!
As an eastern German i find storys like that very informative.
Keep up the good work!
It is always interesting when so much history comes with a firearm.
Yeah I thought it was strange Ian would suggest we might find it dull. Super interesting! Especially with how the company's fortunes mirrored the themes of the war and postwar period.
It is always cool how much of a history lesson you can get by looking at the events around the tools of war.
There is always history, it is just a question of if it is known.
Probably took more time to proof stamp it than to build it.
Damn. I always start one of your vids and think, "oh, this won't be interesting *this time*" and end up watching the whole thing. I really like how you interweave history with engineering and don't shy away from unpleasant times in our collective history while still keeping it focused on the gun engineering.
Well done as always, mate.
Biggest 50ccm Cycle factory in the GDR. Had a 1977 Simson S50 from hunting weapon factory Simson Suhl.
They are really nice 50s. Had a S51
Just taking a minute to appreciate how much damn history Ian is about to find about the most obscure topics. This guy is an absolute maniac!
8.82 mm = 0.347" diam. Sounds a little small for groove diam for a 9.02 mm (nominal 0.355") bullet diam. I believe the CIP spec is 8.82 mm (as you initially said) for the land-to-land, bore diam. :)
As far as I know, Simson continued to produce a bunch of high-quality two-wheelers and hunting rifles in between the 1950s und 90s. For example their Drillings (a hunting rifle with three barrels) where a popular export product (which was not unimportant to the GDR, due the fact that they used their own currency). Simson was public protery to the GDR (East Germany). After the re-unification 1990, several modernizing attempts where made; they continued to produce stuff like mopeds, but I think they vastly disappeared during the early 2000s.
So the brandname "Simson" or "Simson & Suhl" did not fully vanish after the war, their products still have kind of a cult status within germany, as I can imangine.
Huh. I saw a few drillings in the US, local gun store had a crazy collection. The idea interests me, but those particular guns were in very unusual calibers.
Another great and diverse Luger presentation. Thank you Ian.
Ian... you could present the development and history of an obscure Elbonian carpet manufacturer and I'd still feel entertained and enlightened!
You mean like the Torkevii Bros. Carpet Co. ?
@@Oblithian Exactly! The amount of sheer bad luck they had, and the amount of government corruption involved in their financial demise would make for a fantastic tale if Ian presented it! :P
Especially if they sold the purported flying ones to the Elbonian Air Force.
Interesting? It's fascinating!
A couple of things especially interest me about Lugers and some other arms from that time period. One, they were still considered "ordinary" military weapons (in some places) well after they became collector's items, which might also be said of the SIG P210. Some firearms become collector's items while still in production. Supposedly Lugers were used by the Norwegian army until replaced by Glocks.
Another thing is both the clever design of the Luger, also true of some other turn of the century firearms as well as the workmanship and finish, at least of some of them. And by the way, I thought that Vickers and maybe FN made a few Lugers.
Is this the same Simson factory that wound up making Scooters in the GDR ?
I think so
@@briarholstein168 checked it out. Apparently it is!
pls dont call them scooters! its disgacefull to simson! they are mopeds or krad
@@DitzyCloudssorry, but I'm pretty sure the correct English term is "scooter".
@@KonradSeverinHilstad nope even in englisch its called moped. scooters are those rice cookers on wich you sit like taking a shit and only drive like 45
Suhl is locatatet more in the middle of Germany, which was still under prussion territory. South Germany was more like Bavarian act. Fun fact: during GDR which also included Suhl, there where the popular SIMSON motorbikes produced...
Jagdwaffenwerk Suhl or hunting weapon factory Suhl in English was stamped on the registration plate of all Simson cycles.
All the little historical details I learn in here. Thanks Boss🤘 Good Fortunes
Gunsmith: “Ok, where do you want your serial markers?”
Simson Luger: “YES!”
Wow, that joke format sure isn't getting old or annoying!
@@JohnsonLobster No, never. Reading the same thing a million times is so much fun.
Great lesson can be learned from this video. Nazis and Communists will find some bullshit reason to steal private property.
Ian, I grew up in New Orleans- a pretty old city as US cities go. It's full of standing buildings and bits and pieces of the 400 year history of the place. I was always very enchanted by those stories. One day, I saw a ship mounted cannon, thought to be from the Battle of New Orleans. Very much like that Simson Luger- both the gun itself and the greater history of the Simson family and brand. That kilo or so of metal in your hands contained about a metric tonne of history. Awesome!
I grew up a couple hours from there. History is never dead in that city. They have a respect and love of it like few places in America. The WWII Museum is a prime example.
@@5roundsrapid263 And that is just the current history. FR
As soon as I heard Jewish family and 1934 I had a pretty good idea where it was going... Just glad they managed to get out and survive
They must have really stuck out...being so yellow and all.....
@@TheWolfsnack I'm sorry but wut?
@@yosarianilivestech4018 it’s a reference to the show The Simpsons
@@JohnSmith-hd2tl good lol, got a second I thought they were calling jews cowards. Glad I don't have to be outraged
Still the best history channel on the tubes. Thank you Ian for the great content.
Gun history, yes, definitely. But in more general history, "Modern History TV" is pretty awesome, too. Different content, more about medieval knights, swords and stuff.
Happy ANZAC day everyone! :)
We celebrate it tomorrow.
Not remotely dull! Of all your videos, this is my favourite type - educational, informative and historical. Thank you.
This was absolutely fascinating, I learned so much in this video, thanks for furthering my education, as always .. Your videos are such a pleasure to watch and so educational.
Blessed are the followers of GJ.
the company headquarters of HAENEL is also in Suhl... and a really nice museum about firearms
Missed meme-opportunity! "Suhl" is pronounced pretty much exactly like "Zuul" from Ghostbusters (the "S" is soft).
As in, there is no Mauser, only Suhl.
Thanks for starting the day off right!
Steve1989MREInfo needs to upload more regularly...
History background is really making common guns into relics on their own. Love this kind of videos.
3:31 DWM had significant political connections on its own: Ludwig Loewe was an influential member and sponsor of German Progress Party, which put him in Reichstag. And in 1929 it came to be owned by Quandt group with strong ties to Nazi higher-ups.
8:30 I've never heard of it! So, 9 Para should be properly called 8.8×19 mm?
13:17 No, 1936 it was. Ironic thing is, Gustloff was killed in Switzerland.
13:50 Whatever modern claims might be, it was part of reparations, and as such, done in a totally legal way. Also, the factory got its tools back (and then some) when Germany bought the license to build AKs.
As a german viewer, I like your presentation.
I was born in Thuringia, and everybody there knows Simson Suhl. They also made lot's of small airguns during the GDR period, and the most famous 50ccm motorcycle in the World.
Thank you for the video.
Well this is a good way to start a Saturday morning.👍
Me, a Jewish person: Some German arms pre-1950 are interesting, but not interesting enough to make up for, y'know, the thing. Except the Luger, because it's boring and ugly.
Ian: The owners of the company that made this Luger were Jewish.
Me: I want it.
Hey there, Suhl is located in Southern Thuringia, and therfore right in the middle of Germany, not Southern Germany.
Simson does not exist anymore as a company, but almost every German knows the Name.
Nowadays Simson is known in Germany mostly for the mopeds S50, S51 A and B and the Schwalbe (Sparrow). These were manufactured in the GDR and are considered to be best mopeds ever been made in Germany at all.
Simson has always been an outstanding company and is one big loss during the reunification.
Thanks for this great Video teaching me something new about my home region!
Greatings from Weimar in Thuringia
Do you know if the family ever recovered the factory after the reunafaction?. P.S. could you tell Goggle to quit putting there stupid adverts in the middle of your video!!!.
You had me going for a minute. At 9.24 you talk about an aluminum folower but can't see the folower! I figured out that you were talking about the floor plate. I agree with the majority that the story of the company is as interesting (if not more so) than the Luger itself.
I would enjoy a forgotten weapons video about the Jewish German family that owned a toy making company and produced Sten magazines in England during WW2. Their manufacturer stamp was a 6 point star of David. I have one of these magazines in my collection. Great video! Yall take care and be safe, John
Very interesting company history. One of my fathers favorite shotguns was an interwar Simpson. The detail on the family/company history brought that home a little more. Thank you.
"Hans we need to make it more complicated so we can stamp more numbers!"
Really fascinating story. I wonder how many Jews were shot by Simson Lugers or machine gunned using their barrels. Interesting but tragic period in history.
my uncle did own a Simson... but different "type" of Simson :-D green Simson S51 50cc bike
A detailed list of Luger tooling sets! At last!
Interesting that there was only 4 sets of tooling for Luger production. Now I'm curious about whose tooling was used by Mauser for the manufacturer of my 1935 dated P08.
NOT "terribly dull", this is AWESOME! ...more like this! plz
Ian's goatee and 'stache always make him look he's a time-traveled Union officer or something.
Interwar German military firearms from a Jewish family company.
That's some interesting history!
You're right, I too wonder why these aren't more popular in collector's circles.
All Luger tooling came from Erfurt, they also proof marked the Lugers in accordance of the Imperial military procedures/instructions on marking and positioning of these markings/proofs. The only two Luger manufacturers that followed these instructions exactly even though Simson obviously were making/repairing in the Weimar era. Thanks Ian.
I have to wonder if the lower market value is driven by the more unhealthy aspects of some collector's interest in Reich militaria.
This is exactly the kind of video that I find incredibly satisfying!
I am a bit of a gun nut myself, and this is exactly what I want, expect, and hope for in the future, the full history, manufacturing process, every name attached, it’s all what I’ve come to know and love from you, please keep it up!
How about arms made in jukebox factories, Rock-Ola etc?
Very educational. Thanks Ian.
I will listen to you talk about lugers and history any time. Not dull at all
my grandpa worked for Simson, cool to hear more about that company
Suhl is a medium sized city in the middle of Germany. The city and the region surrounding it has been a centre of weapon manufacture for hundreds of years.
It still is. Merkel producing hunting rifles there since 1898.
Bedtime speculation: it would make sense that a small player might get these types of contracts during the time period since anyone who did might be required to undergo heightened foreign scrutiny, and they'd want the big players to work on the stuff they shouldn't have been.
I do not have a single fact to back this up though.
Makes sense. It is Weimar Germany were everyone is trying to dodge and pull wool over the Allies' eyes over military things...
I remember reading that Junkers set up a factory in the Soviet Union during the 1920s as a way of dodging the Versailles treaty. I think Sweden also built some tanks for Germany in the same period. I wonder if there was a factory somewhere in the Urals churning out Mausers for the Weimar police.
Spread the knowledge
A liter of coffee and a video of Forgotten Weapons. Perfect to start a Saturday
The old Simson factory in suhl is close in my neighborhood
WOO! caught one early!
Well thankfully back to my gun nerd video,
Not my preferred channel for playing cops n robbers.
03:30 not so surprising if you look at the early Weimar Republic.
Very interesting history behind this pistol I had not heard of this company before but Gustloff Werke is a familiar term.
Always love to see interesting lugers.
This pistol itself is a library of Weimar period inspection stamps.
Sheesh
Yeah, but what did Simson do in the United States?
DWM stands for Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken
Suhl is not in "Southern Germany", but in Thuringia, pretty much the center of either Post WW I or modern Germany...
Is it the same Simson company that build mopeds post ww2 in the DDR?
Who cares?!
What about pre WWI Germany?
Erbsenzähler
@@bramster-b9v Buchhalter ]:->
I have a 1914 Erfert. It is really a beautifully designed firearm. You can tell the pride that was taken into making them. You could probably make videos until you retire on all the different models, variants and manufactures of it. I'm envious of all the fun things you get to do and see. Keep up the good work, Ian.
Very interesting, but Suhl is situated in the middle of Germany, not in the south.
And then it became Simson again - just without the Simsons - as a brand for mopeds made by "Fahrzeug- und Jagdwaffenwerk „Ernst Thälmann“ in the GDR. Quite good mopeds actually.
Q and a question what’s your favorite sport
I'm not sure why but there's something hilarious about a small hat being able to manufacture a Luger.
the merchants guild never stops a good sale lmao
I really enjoy the history and backstory of firearms. Not a dull video at all.
Not dull, Ian. I come here for the history, since I'm too thick to understand the mechanical stuff. ^_^
Nice pistol! Great Video!
I thought they'd found Luger pistols buried under Versailles!....then I watched the video - d'oh! I had my own Simpson moment.
What a beautiful gun. Its like a piece of rare art.
Not dull at all, thank you.
What I find slightly surprising is that all of the serial numbers and markings seem to all appear to be hand-stamped, rather than roll-stamped, being either slightly crooked (like "1926" isn't exactly perpendicular to the long axis of the pistol) or the letter-spacing slightly uneven (EG: the the "SIMSON & Co, SUHL" mark on the toggle).
I have a GDR produced (early 60s) double barrel 12 gauge which is marked as Simsom mod. 125 but also Ernst Thälmann, Suhl. So for whatever reason the Communists still marketed firearms in the west with the Simsom brand.
I really like the backstories of the guns. Another interesting video, thank you.
Q: Do you know why there are no modern versions of the Luger made today?
Aside from the fact machining those is a pain in the butt economically? And there are other BETTER guns that serve the same purpose out there? Even the Germans moved away from them in favor of Browning-esque slide guns...
Check out lugerman.
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 we still have revolvers tho despite better options available
@Nick Milligan I will, once a bank approves my loan
@@alexm566 Revolvers got a lifeline from both the Police forces that still use them up until the 1980's and from 1960's Spaghetti westerns that helped Italian gunmakers find a market. Besides, any decent workshop can make a revolver, including the cylinder; where on earth can you find someone that can make Lugers on the cheap, which is not Khyber Pass?
I have no particular interest in Lugers, but I still like to watch these videos, because there is always some interesting information to show up. Today, my mind has been blown by learning that there were only 4 sets of machine tools made to produce all Lugers ever made.
Ian, please make a video on the Luger design principles.
You might feel you have done, but I cannot find it after searching for and watching half a dozen of your Luger videos, starting from your earliest, including that on the Borchardt.
What I am missing is so obvious, you might not have noticed you haven't covered it---what is with that bizarre looking operating system? Why is it good? How does it improve recoil, feed, accuracy, heck, you know. Even the "first Luger" video did not explain what Luger actually did with that huge Borchardt spring. You explain these things so very, very well; I hope you will, for me. :)
Or, anyone, where is the video I missed, with apologies.
Thats how, boys and girls, Gun Jesus singlehandedly increased value of everything marked Simson twice. including mopeds.
I sold my 1913 Luger [ pre stock lug} when times got tough for a couple years. WW2 Capture papers and all. Captured by Capt. David McCarthy. Pistol saw a ton of use, WW1, police, Police school [Hannaford}, and WW2.. I miss it!. The guy that bought it may very well one day read this ! Will it back to me, if you have no one else ! Im sure its the nucleus of your collection, as it was mine. Tough times dont last....Tough people do.
Cool, thanks mate. Really enjoyed this one as I'm a bit of a Luger fan.
Heh, kind of ironic: While being jewish came back to haunt the Simsons, being an idiot came back to Saukel to haunt him. And rightly so. So maybe there's some justice after all.
Another great history lesson, Ian. Big thanks...
Are there any historical photographs of how these guns were made? What did the machine tools look like in that era? Maybe a video of forgotten tools for making guns?
fascinating story (and we all love a good story). Technology, business, politics, geography, and history interacting in complicated ways. I mean, they always do, especially for guns, but this little pistol at the nexus of events is indeed a loaded artifact, if you'll excuse the pun. In isolation it's "just another Luger", and probably not the best example mechanically, if some part of it is barely within tolerance. But in the context in which you place it, it has a weight and power (and tragedy) far beyond its physical dimensions. Anyway, thanks.