Douglas Murray on Donald Trump, Free Speech, Identity Politics
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- Опубліковано 27 жов 2020
- --Douglas Murray, author of The Madness of Crowds and The Strange Death of Europe, joins David to discuss identity politics, the future of the conservative movement, and much more. Get his latest book: amzn.to/31MsNi7
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Broadcast on October 28, 2020
#davidpakmanshow #douglasmurray #identitypolitics
"if u cant even have the most basic discussions, ur never going to have the nuanced ones"
Douglass Murray, once again taking the fool to school. I also find it ironic that david is so closeted about his sexuality, but finds it strange that douglass Murray doesn't want to talk about who he would vote for.
The Build the Wall, Lock her up, stop the steal crowd need to work on their abilities to have basic conversations
I respect David for having Murray on.
Me too, and he wasn't absolutely insanely leftist, perhaps there was a coming calm with the election on the horizon at that time, who knows? He seemed to actually listen to what Douglas was saying, I was pretty surprised.
This should have been 3 hours long. I would love to see more long-form interviews David.
Yeah, I always find he has really constructive people like Douglas.
I like Douglas as a good opposing voice to a lot of my views but he always has the same convo with Sam Harris or the other dark web guys(damn college kids!).
I’d love to hear a long form interview and I think these 2 would really have great conversations.
what tax fraud?
"an uncomfortable alliance with republicans"
trump has always enjoyed above 90% approval rating in his party
"Hes not part of any broader right wing movement or tendency"
except his immigration stance which you agree with, his anti Muslim rhetoric@actions which you agree with, his anti leftist rhetoric which you agree with, his capitalistic stance which you agree with&on&on&on, you would have to be completely delusional to say this what Douglas Murray claim
"i see your brand as antithetical to what Donald Trumps policy is" WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Borders have not been traditionally seen as a right wing aspect"
"Dondald Trump is a person who is difficult to take clear lessons from"
HMmmmmmm i wonder why he wont answer whether or not he would vote for Trump
"Who are you voting for?" " I dont tell people who to vote for out of principle" he never asked you who you are telling other people to vote for.
"why are people of our time finding it so difficult to listen to a contrary opinion? Family cant come together anymore" give me a fucking break dude
"quite easily beat Bernie Sanders" there was a nationally coordinated strategy to narrow the field to Biden within one weekend but ok. dont really think thats the full story
i cant go on..
if you enjoyed this interview you are dense. THIS IS WHY DONALD TRUMP IS GOOD, BECAUSE IT REVEALS HOW DISGUSTING PEOPLE LIKE DOUGLAS MURRAY ARE.
@@tylerwatrouse8602 Thanx to be on my side, Tyler 😉
@@tylerwatrouse8602 well having just read your confused post it's obvious you have no idea or any capability to even understand Mr Murray, you're too wrapped up in TDS
I do not align with David ideologically, but I watch multiple viewpoints to stay out of my echo chamber. I am so impressed that he interviewed Murray. Good job.
Ya I was surprised when this hit my feed. David almost seems to be that, this is fine meme. Murray got his point across really well.
David hardly interviewees Douglas Murray. And I’m not that impressed there are many many conservative hosts that welcome liberals. Maybe that counts as impressive on the left these days ??
@@fredwinslow744 so salty
He slapped him around and exposed Murray for who he is - a pathetic culture war profiteer, focusing on Twitter spats between 0.01% of population.
@@alenb9354 eh.. did he though?
Very refreshing two guys with different views having a decent debate. Far too many echo chambers!
I'm glad you had this interview. Wish it would have been more of a conversation; it felt like both of you were too guarded to truly discuss differences
Yup.
My take as well
yeah but the sentiment came from Pakman not from Murray
Murray was open. Pakman won't budge from his position that SJWs are either meaningless, a right-wing conspiracy or actually correct. David can't anger his patrons.
Ironically they disagreed about self inflicted suppression of ideas.
Douglas Murray just articulated the changes I am seeing in my workplace. Great guest.
Can you be more specific?
@@adamz9835 no, because he would get in trouble
PC on PC on tribal PC on what is now ow racism. Under guise of wokeness.
@@fredwinslow744 you people who incessantly whine about PC culture will always be 10 times more annoying than any pc culture. Get off the internet and go outside. Bet you never met a real SJW. Stop pretending the internet is real life.
@@grayson0916 lots of assumptions there
More than half of my interactions are w them I’m quite comfortable whining and the lecture is consistent
David i appreciate that you actually talked to a real conservative. great conversation, Douglas is always clear and polite the way politics should be and i appreciate you doing the same.
I’ve only recently discovered Douglas Murray, but I find him to be a breath of fresh air compared to the usual pundits. Extremely knowledgeable with an impressive insight that allows him to get to heart of the matter and express it eloquently and concisely.
Yep. I was like, GODDAMIT I finally found a conservative whom I can respect and possibly admire, I gotta tread carefully before I get sucked into the dark side
@@PutinsMommyNeverHuggedHim What Murray represents is that there is no dark side and bright side, there are issues to solve and brainwashed people who do not even want to talk about them let alone solve them.
@@1969fata that’s exactly the vibe I got from him. Too bad Pakman went all partisan and freaked out on him
He may get a lot of his points across eloquently but when those points describe far right movements as having a point and use the "western civilisation" line when suggesting life for Muslims needs to be made more difficult in Europe to dissuade them from immigrating there, well, you know what you're up against there surly.
Ciarán De Burca I’m not sure the Jewish people who were killed last night in Austria would agree with you. That fact that you are able to delude yourself doesn’t mean we are all deluded. As far as the far right issue is concerned, from what I see, it’s the far left who are burning America and they are by far the biggest threat to world stability.
This was a good discussion. I wish it was longer.
Look up his discussion with Eric Weinstein, 2 hours worth of good discussion 👌
Someone posted time stamps in the comments for what discussed
@@7EiamJ7 lol it was longer than 2 hours friend, but great suggestion. No offense to David, but Eric is much better at diving deeper into the psyche of his interviewees. ( Eric Weinstein’s The Portal)
Murray has been on a tour of the West coast. This is one of his shortest interviews, just do a search. The one on the Dark horse podcast with Bret Weinstein is great.
@@oceania2385 I like his chat with Dennis Prager, but Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris was a good one, even if just the moderator.
David could not keep up his dishonesty for that long with the likes of Murray. He would be exposed and he knows it.
Sorry disagree with David using analogy of books to be a better salesman. That is a stupid analogy. As an IT person I’ve been recommended lots of books to be a better programmer or analyst. But that isn’t remotely the case of what’s happening with cancel culture. What is happening is mind control and character and thought control of even things that are TOTALLY PERSONAL And private, like political preferences, like moral values, etc. NO boss or company should be in the business of punishing people on those basis. That’s ISNT different than discriminating people based on race, gender, religion, etc.
He did explain though that the books he got where entering that area of forming your character, moral values and how to behave with other people. Depending on what books he actually got it's still not the best example of what Douglas was talking about.
yes, that was extremely disingenuous
sure on some level a worldview is built into every book, but I find it impossible to believe he can't see the major qualitative difference between critical race theory propaganda and How to Win Friends and Influence People
Actually, discriminating based on ideas and actions isn't discriminating. Its just fairly judging people based on what they do. If I owned a small business, I would have a major preference in hiring non-racist employees for the benefit of my customers and therefore profit. That's not discriminatory, thats an employer demanding basic moral decency from his associates. The only thing one must not tolerate is intolerance itself.
@@DMoneyTaz15 Person A: Someone who's not crazy about homosexuality but they're never mean about it, they would never want a gay person to be fired and it never affects their work life. Person B: Someone who wants person A to get fired because they didn't like their answer in a screening questionnaire that they had to fill out. Who is the most intolerant here? If you think it's B that's fine but it tells me that you are an intolerant person.
@@fuckamericanidiot it easy to make up hypothetical situations to suit your own argument
Thanks Douglas for always helping to clear up the issues facing us today. Would love to see you on CNN or BBC
What makes you think that he hasn't been on those channels?
he b on Fox now
I have been following both of David and Douglas for a while. I think they have both provided a positive contribute to popular debate. It was good to see them both in discussion, nice one both of you.Politically I am left leaning but can appreciate someone else's points even if I don't agree fully. Same with with some one being on the left. This should be happening more often.
Absolutely and these two can have a longer discussion, like the one with Sam Harris. David is a an excellent interviewer and he pushes back in a way that challenges the interviewee to expand, which is refreshing...
David, this is a worthy discussion. Thank you! Douglas is such a worthy voice.
Douglas Murray is absolutely right in identifying the root cause of America's social and political decline. It has become a generally accepted meme in 'polite society' that no one should discuss politics or religion. Things that are not discussed cannot improve.
Douglass is an Alt right white supremacist. He talks about identity politics, but literally himself is engaged in identity politics.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn your conflating so many terms that it undermines your rhetoric. Crying wolf is a serious problem on the left because terms have lost their moral power
Damn David, you cut the interview off just when it was getting interesting. That's too bad
Great to see Douglas Murray here on David Pakman. A pleasant surprise. More please.
Murray's been on so many shows recently - Rogan, Weinstein, Harris, etc. - where he generally agrees with the host. They've all been great, but it's really enjoyable to see a respectful and intelligent conversation with someone like David who pushes back a bit. Would love to see a full hour (or more!) of this.
I dont think it was respectful, it was a textbook case of pretend repect from Pakman.
He hasn't been on Sam Harris' show recently, has he?
you need to push back on white supremacists like murray.
@@invisiblespeedrc Except he’s not and you have not the slightest evidence that he is. You are part of the problem.
@@johnricercato740 Yes he is, and yes I do. If you are uncomfortable with the term, then maybe "western supremacist" will sit in your mind better.
Excellent conversation. This is how discourse should take place. Thanks for being a voice of reason David.
I used to watch David Pakman and Rachel Maddow everyday. I still like David and enjoy his point of view. Now I watch Douglas Murray, Coleman Hughes, James Lindsay, Peter Boghoosian, Helen Pluckrose, Bret and Eric Weinstein, and Andrew Doyle. All of which I consider left of center. It's good to see Pakman can still have a Murray as a guest.
Douglas Murray is in no way 'left of centre'
@@randomname3109 He posed with a picture of Andy Ngo. In Portland thats enough to call him an alt right nazi Fascist. So if you use a reality correction model, just put him where he belongs. A erudite, liberal, barley left of center gay man.
@@oceania2385 wut?
Look up Glenn Loury and John McWhorter, they are excellent on the wide topic of woke culture/race
@@oceania2385 Left of center? Murray is routinely labeled as conservative. With Bret Weinstein not long ago Murray somewhat guardedly identified as a conservative, in the sense he is cautious of change. Doesn't object to change, but definitely doesn't welcome change for the hell of it. Weinstein did observe that Murray had the heart of a liberal, meaning, as I understood it, that he has compassion. Perhaps him being a Brit skews Americans' perception of him on our left/right scale?
"[Tyrants] injure and oppress the people under their administration, provoking them to cry out and complain, and then make that very outcry the foundation for new oppressions and persecutions."~Andrew Hamilton, 1735 (NOT Alexander Hamilton)
The Trial of John Peter Zenger for Libeling the Colonial Government in 1735 is why we have free speech and free press on this continent.
A transcript of the trial, which was a popular little book at the time, was in possession of Thomas Jefferson when drafting the Declaration of Independence and inspired the First Amendment to the Constitution.
This is a short section of the full transcript:
www.dialogue2.ca/EG-alexander-hamilton-1735.html
Thanks for the info. Very interesting.
Ummm...Alexander Hamilton never said, that.
@@JavierRamirez-lx4ev" ...Andrew Hamilton, 1735 (NOT Alexander Hamilton)"
The name presented in the link URL is incorrect but the content, there, is correct.
If you learn anything from this, let it be the British pronunciation of "geyser."
took me a minute to figure out what the hell he was talking about.
I’m British and I pronounce it Guy-zer
Surely Gay-Sir Douglas?
And lasso. "Lassoooo" 😄
The fictional Hyacinth Bucket pronounces it as he does.
I thought Douglass Murray made the best points and I agree with him, but I do think David did his job very well and asked questions and then shut up allowing Murray to talk instead of interrupting him. Interviews should all be conducted in this manner.
Murray talks so much sense, almost always. And he's never boring.
I think you must be taalking about a different Murray
Not much substance to him at all
Weird feeling, upvoting a pakman, but cudos where it's due.
Same here. Respect for you principles
Funny. For a non-conservative, Trump has accomplished more conservative goals than any conservative president in my memory.
2001-2009...he was registered Democrat. He wanted to be accepted by the Democratic elite in NY, so he aligned that way. They never did, nor will they ever, like or accept him. He was delighted he could stick it to them for a few years. He does not have any principles nor overarching ideology. The only thing he cares about is himself and maybe one of his daughters.
Trump has no ideology. He only acts out of self interest or vindictiveness.
@@abstractdaddy1384 And yet has achieved more conservative goals as president than any president in the last 60 years. That is the point. Argue against the point. Your ad hominem fallacy is not convincing.
What sort of conservative goals has he accomplished?
Great to see an interviewer get to grips with challenging Murray, who I love to listen to.
This was a very interesting chat, David is an excellent interviewer and I would love to have heard a long convo. Kudos to both.
David. I think you are out of touch here. I work at a University and I can tell you that EVERYONE feels the burden of wokeness here, even though we’re still in a super conservative state. Let me give you just one personal experience out of many. We had a Christmas party, which was deemed a holiday party (totally fine) and I was selected to be in charge of the music. Since I was already paying for Pandora I thought, “Easy peasy! I’ll just type in Christmas music and bam! My contribution is done.” BUT NO. It was made abundantly clear that a random playlist would be too risky! God forbid we’d offend someone if a song about Christ started to stream. So what happened? Well, I had to find 2 hours worth of “Christmas” music that didn’t mention anything religious. Jiggle bell only type songs. Fun times! I promise you, stories like this are abundant everywhere and they aggravate a whole hell of a lot of people, including myself.
lol you should've put Handel's Messiah on there, all the woke kids start melting
I usually think David isn't tough enough on these interviews, that he comes off as a slightly diminished version of himself. But he's much better on this one and I'm happy to see it because when he's operating on all cylinders he's superb.
Interesting ..I thought David came off as way too withholding.
@@timothyamaraobrien Well. Its a delicate balance. You want to be able to draw the interviewee out and not dominate so much that you begin to inhibit the person you're interviewing. I did think David allowed his own disagreements to be felt far more here than he did in, say, his interview with Coleman Hughes. He seemed more alert here. I wish it had gone on longer because just as it was ending I thought they were about to get into some risky territory.
David clearly had respect for his guest, but in my opinion he gave him too much credit and could have been a little more like himself.
@@AaronOkeanos Probably as an American DP is in awe of the posho Brit voice of Murray. Strip away the voice and Murray is pretty useless
Pakman should have destroyed this Conservative fraud
I’m not able to have those discussions at work.
Him saying that such stories are purely anecdotal and have no statistical relevance is like a newspaper editor saying about a rape, 'that's the only rape today, think about all the nice interactions between people. It's statistically irrelevant, no point reporting on it.' What a dullard! If you can't argue against something, just deny it's even worth talking about, the MO of authoritarians the world over.
That’s bec no one at work speaks like a rationale conservative lone Douglas Murray
No, it would be like a newspaper editor refusing to publish a story decrying "a culture of rape" after a few rapes occur on a given day.
Same here!!!! My boss is freaking nutso holy moly. Same thing at home, my dad watches the news every day and then comes to dinner upset and yells through the entire meal.
Good, intelligent discussion, refreshingly free from dogma. It is a pity that too many on both sides of the political divide wish to "no platform" those of opposing views.
Good, intelligent name.
@@mckittrickl I may be the only person who noticed this. But good eye 😂
david, one thing that happens, even if the cancel culture stuff is not statistically very high, is that it creates a culture of fear. there is a region in india where there are terrorist attacks every few years. so statistically, you won't be killed. but people fear going there,despite it being beautiful,due to that.
same thing with cancel culture. a few colleges, a few companies, a few assholes, its creates a whole culture of fear across the usa.
But the culture of fear is magnified but those supposedly against cancel culture.
What does more damage?
@@stevenp2309 what?
I thought of “Old Geezer “ but I knew he meant Geyser 😗
In the UK its pronounced exactly the same, perhaps he didn't know it is pronounced differently in the US, hence the quip falling flat on its arse :D
I thought he was saying Giza at first
Trump is both a Geyser and a Geezer. Biden is only a Geezer.
This is the most civil comments section I've seen in a long time. Is there hope?
Nah, that's just European influx here raising the level. And the guest was so long talking and boring - even for Europeans - no wonder most of Davids subscribers fled the comments.
Good man Douglas, I think David was being stubborn especially on the last point
I lean left but I usually find myself agreeing with Douglas
You probably agree with his principles, not necessarily his politics
The point the guy made madly, but non the less is a good point, is that politics is getting replaced with tribalism and hence the increased tension between the right and left
fptp systems in both USA and GB MAKE it black and white and are based on confonrtation rather than cooperation
I think the issue behind that is social media and the death of classical journalism in favor of "hot takes" and buzz feed journalism
Which he is guilty of just as much as anyone else he claims to bitch about
I thought the exchange about whether one should have an opinion about who you would vote for in other countries was very revealing- Murray's position is obviously more mature and recognises more appropriately the deep complexity in such decisions and the inappropriate/bordering on disrespectful nature of opining on such questions regarding other people's communities. Pakman's approach I think showed a lack of humility, an improper willingness to speak for others and an undue confidence in full understanding of complex issues- that in my mind is the hallmark of the kind of liberalism that is rooted in self-aggrandisement and naivety. I don't think Pakman neatly fits in that box because he can be sensible in many cases- but he definitely has an unfortunate streak of such thinking.
Nah. It just comes across that hes scare dto admit he would vote for Trump. Just a typical right winger with a posho Brit voice
In Europe, where I come from, it’s bad manners in polite company to ask for one’s political leanings, if one is married or single, and the salary one makes. This whole demanding of personal answers is a very American approach. Rude
David is a smart guy but at times I feel that he (purposely?) misses the deeper issues some of his guests are pointing to and kind of hand waves them away. He did the same thing in his conversation with Sam Harris on political correctness and the "woke" left. But David himself has admitted to self censoring because of the blowback he knows he will receive from some of those on the left. If this is the case then the argument that these censorious individuals make up a statistically insignificant portion of the population is meaningless if they are having such an outsized effect on what people are willing to say.
Great interview, I hope you bring him on back soon.
Sort of tense undertones from both of them, but a good try at reasonable discourse. Both men made some good points and it should be something they take up again post election. People seeing this as some kind of "contest" seem to me to be missing Pakman's point of engaging in reasonable discussion with someone who may not see everything the way he does.
I agree. I am a fan of Murray but he does rely too much on anecdote and quotations, and Parkman offered a different approach.
Pakman is like the last guy saying there is nothing wrong with the USSR "fundamentally" in 1989 east Germany.
We've got a test coming up. If Dave is correct and the supression is "statistically negligible" then we should see the polls replicated in the election results, I wonder if he will change his opinion when they aren't.
I do not share Douglas Murray's political views as such, but he presents a level of conservative thinking absent in many conservatives on both sides of the Pond. I am happy to hear his arguments and even be challenged by them. Sometimes he has a damned good point which we need to address. The same can be said about David Pakman who, whether one agrees with him or not, always come across as a decent and informed commentator.
Good on David for being willing hear out people from the right.
The left is so far left now that the center appears to be the right.
@tubetardism 20/20 I'm a centerist. Left of center on social issues, right of center on fiscal issues. I'm all snug and comfy here. Mwah xx
@tubetardism 20/20 Trump is a narcissist. He's on his own side. He was a Democrat b4 he was a Republican. He will start his own party next year a dump the Republicans. Left and Right mean nothing to him.
@tubetardism 20/20 I don't believe that at all !! Get a grip pleeeze !! I also think the 2 party system is a joke, but that is another story. I would choose Biden over Trump in a NY minute. Don't tell me what I believe.
@tubetardism 20/20 "We seem to agree on all but your opening statement about ‘the left." . . Oh dear, what a shame, never mind.
Hasn't it always been common in America for people to refrain form telling others who they'll vote for? Also, if you ask me, it's perfectly legitimate to tell someone what is wrong to think if that thought is that women are incompetent or something along those lines.
And I live in England and I can say first hand that nobody is more afraid of these discussions than white English people. From high school all the way through to university I've witnessed meltdown after meltdown resulting from just the mention of the words 'race' or 'white'. Its actually crazy. England hides from its past by burying it's history of race relations and pretending like the British empire never existed.
Trump endorsing Farage and Johnson in last decembers election was way out of line. Noone would do this diplomatical faux pas besides an imbecile. The only ones not having a problem with it are the ones doing it themselves or profiting from it like Trump does - I mean foreign interference.
You’re not living in the Britain I’m living in then
What utter nonsense. We are well aware of the Empire and the good and very bad aspects of it, have been since school and during university; and are reminded of it at least twice a year by The Guardian and endless TV shows. Finally, an Oxford academic lost his job for suggesting that the British Empire hadn’t been wholly bad. So please don’t post about things you clearly know nothing about.
@@johnricercato740 Have you sat in a classroom lately? People out here are super sensitive about race. Funny because just today I was watching a video Akinfenwa talking about his experience with racism in Lithuania and he alluded to the exact same thing about how it is in England, of course I don’t know him and I’ve heard other “ethnic” British people say this as well so I’m obviously not pulling it out of thin air. I’ve felt it multiple time’s. People always say stuff like “we ended slavery” in response to anything about race in England. Of course this isn’t everyone, most people just keep their mouths shut and some are actually aware/informed, but it is common. I’m not from here and I’ve had friends (black and white) tell me that they’ve only had 3 classes about black history or black people in British history in their entire lives. If that’s not ignoring history then I don’t know what is.
@@justlooking1087 For someone who doesn’t live here you rely on a good deal of hearsay from a few individuals, and that really isn’t good enough. I won’t repeat what I wrote earlier, so will add that compared to the US or even France, Germany, Spain and Italy our record on race relations is not perfect but pretty good, and I am not even including the abolition of slavery. As to the number of black history lectures: which ethnic group are you talking about? Not everyone elects to learn history and if they do the will tend to get mainstream UK history but can elect to do specialist courses. No educational system can cater for every minority.
Two of my favourite commentators. I could listen to you two talk for an hour every day.
@david stephany I hear you, but I've found that while Pakman's monetization strategy certainly reduces the quality of the content he churns out, it hasn't reduced his ability to think critically and engage in thoughtful discussions when the opportunities come along.
@david stephany I think David is a very clear and thorough observer of politics. I don't like his monetisation Strats either, but I suppose a man's got to eat! Douglas and I would probably disagree on a lot of politics but I admire his acerbic stand against the excesses of 'woke' activism.
@david stephany I wish it could have gone on longer too.
@@JaredCzaia well put!
adding my voice to the comments here, I would like to see you arrange very long 1+ hour long debates with people who you find you have good conversations with. Obviously Justin Lee Peterson would not be a good long form, but Douglas Murray would be. I think a lot of benefits could come out of that.
Jesse?
Really great interview David. This reminds me of why I used to subscribe to you. You were excellent in debating your point against a very accomplished debater. Really very impressed with how you approached this. I'm almost hovering over that "sign up for membership" again! I think you were incredibly fair to Murray, I don't think you went for gotcha moments, it seemed like you genuinely were probing and interested. I do agree with Murray that internationally conservatism cannot be easily compared. In the UK, as much as I despise Boris Johnson and disagree with Tory Policy, the UK Conservative party is probably slightly to the left of US Democrats. You can probably guess, I'm much further to the left than that.
JUSTICE FOR MAH BOI CORBYN!!!
Did not expect to see David and Douglas together! Cool stuff, just wish it was longer.
Pac-Man does NOT wish that. Dave will be seen as uniargumenattive and Douglas as
Far his intellectual and knowledge superior. Pac-Man knows
Most of his viewers have even seen this long of a normal conservative speak. And he ABSOLUTELY wants to keep it that way
Pac-Man doesn’t keep his bread buttered by considering objective tolerance to considering the other views as important.
David's wrong on the last points, in my (lived) experience. I can't talk to my New York friends about Trump. The conversation can't be had. It's become very hard to maintain friendships, though I make a point of it. People lose their minds immediately upon the subject being raised. "He's a fascist" and "You'd be okay with Hitler, probably."
So you'd be OK with Hitler?
If Trump were Hitler, he is the dumbest Hitler of all.
David, you’re the best
Much respect to you David for having this conversation - I know you'll get some backlash for it. I do wish it would have been 3-4x the length, but kudos regardless.
More long form with quality conservatives like Douglas. Always glad to see their ideas unravel under your scrutiny. But also I like the challenges they present. Good conversation all round.
Thanks for having him on the show.
Is anybody else legitimately afraid of another civil war?
Yep.
@@radicallymoderateryan9362 ever considered that your version of "truth" isn't universal?
Surprisingly not as much as I was a couple of months ago. When I was convinced that civil was was imminent I had to go outside and take a walk. Wave a friendly hello to my MAGA neighbors, and mean it. They were my neighbors before Trump, and while I no longer desire to have social gatherings with them, I know I we would never hurt one another.
@SGT Gardner Okay keyboard badass
I am! I think if Trump loses or wins, there will be riots!
I sooo want to see a follow up on this conversation!
More of this please David and Douglas. Love it. Take my money
He must not win, I want to see his tax fraud and not allow him to be pardoned from jail
And Biden? He should be in the geriatric dept
I would argue promising him jail is bad. If he knows jail is waiting for him, would this not incentivize him to go full authoritarian to maintain power? I.e. incite civil war. Leave him a way out, and he will go more willingly.
I don’t think its tax fraud. Its simply a peek behind the curtain of how the well to do live, and why our tax code is so complex. Think about it....we could have an incredibly simple tax code based on income of all forms, and instead we have an entire branch of government that exists solely to allow the rich to keep their money, so the country can function almost entirely off of middle-class income. If you have the means, you can pay $30,000 to a tax lawyer with a team of accountants, in order to practically skip paying taxes. The rest of us pay H&R Block or risk doing it ourselves on their basic standardized forms, resulting in us paying out of our ass.
@@Gherzahn no, Americans all agree on most things,(EDIT: I'm saying 99% want peace and law and won't abide him being obviously belligerent in political matters, not his team, mcconnell was chill with saying it'll be a peaceful transfer) Remember they are fed certain information and (more importantly) not given even more. Groups are dangerous to ideas. The founding fathers would hate him and I'm a Republican that does too. Read Franklin's autobiography everyone! Biden would be in jail if that evidence was anything lol they control all 3 branches of government 😂
@@michaelshannon9169 Biden overcame his stutter to the point I thought it was his age. Nope, he's sharp as hell and gives great uniting hopeful speeches all the time bucko, come on, please use the internet and easily searchable information. We need a Knowledgeable Active Population or democracy can hardly be said to even exist
I’m a new sub. Just found your channel last night. I binge watched some of your videos all night. Good stuff. My father in law is a Presbyterian pastor and HUGE trump supporter. He’s so political and is alienating some of his own congregation with his radical views. Him and I aren’t on talking terms right now as you can imagine why. I’m also at odds with A LOT of my own family members who are on the same dumb cult train. Never in history can I ever remember families being torn apart politically like this. It’s sad. Unfortunately, I don’t ever see my family getting past these “differences” of political opinion either, but I’m almost glad to see their true colors and not have these toxic people in my life anyway.
I also have conservative family and am finding it hard to be at peace with them. They say "i'm not being invlusive/tolerant" like i'm the problem. I just can't tolerate their constant defense of a man like donald trump. I try to stick to policy, but it's hard, and now all I can think is that they have been brainwashed into "taking the easy way out" bc trump is so simple-minded and offers simple solutions to their fearful brains. Its very hard tonreapect them. I want to be able to "agree to disagree" but it feels so disingenuous to not fight back against this administration
@@chriser555 This is not the time to be silent in a representative democracy. Being against a party who thinks it's okay to bring around a disease to family members is what any normal caring human being should do. Your attitude on the comparison of opinion to manipulative madness is frightening and deadly lazy.
Politics aside, Trump is so profoundly crude, dishonest and clearly unfit. I hate it that they actually talk about him like he is a functioning adult. He isn’t.
@@bethkop12 my response is that this isn’t about political views, it is about decency and morality. He is offensive, I don’t believe he believes in anything. He panders to the radical right.
@@chriser555 I don’t believe that. That is a cop out. Guess you didn’t notice when he abandoned our allies, the Kurds. He isn’t good for the economy for the majority. Manufacturing jobs have continued to leave. He is doing nothing to get us in the game of renewables, he is still pushing for coal and oil. The rest of the world is moving forward in energy, we are stagnant.
Obama’s numbers for new jobs were better. And Obama pulled us out of a recession. The Trump team has no idea how to rebuild an economy, they can ride a good one, and explode a deficit with tax cuts that did nothing. Meanwhile we are still stagnant in the Middle East.
Excellent interview, well done. I used to love Douglas (I still do), he is as eloquent as you are, David. But in these past few years, Politically, I’ve gone more to your side, not that I was ever conservative but I used to like his logic but you see right through it 👍 and can dissect precisely. 👏
Surprised anyone can be remotely thinking Murray is good
I discovered Douglas Murray over six years ago from a debate about religion. He was just excellent
@@skyblazeeterno anyone that is eloquent and challenges my thoughts gets my respect. I don’t like his politics but let’s not forget, British conservatives are much closer to US Democrats that Republicans.
Brilliant interview David. More in-depth discussion please. On a variety of topics!
Murray owned him. David chikend out, u can see it it Davids eyes! murray would go all night!
If you want more Douglas check out his recent appearance on The Dark Horse Podcast or The Portal. Both are EXCELLENT!
Why ask a Conservative Pom anything that requires thought? Their political views include Royalty ffs
exactly
the left wing types in the UK support the Royal family too
@@stevenlyhne1 no serious left wing attitude in the UK believes the class structure that starts with God, then Monarchy, is good. NON.
@@cliftonmanley3882 rubbish; most Labour ie leftwing in the UK support the monarchy.
@Andrea Mendenhall really? Their society is based on the following class structure. God, King, Parliament. The scum, or people, line up to be a part of their "class" and are proud of their class. This makes Royalty their 2nd in command, even the "lefties" so they have no choice, their Indoctrination dictates what they do.
You are wrong.
Good on David for having Murray on. This is the David im here for.
Excellent questions from David.
I’m not an American citizen either but I am quite happy to say to all US citizens to please vote Trump out. Why does it matter to me? Because it doesn’t just affect the US .... it affects the stability of the rest of the world if the US continues to cozy up to dictators and authoritarian countries and shuns alliances that have held strong since WW2. I am terrified about the future if Trump gets in again.
@Andrea Mendenhall. What on earth does that mean?
@Andrea Mendenhall The only things Trump is staving off are stimulant abstinence, and good judgement.
@Andrea Mendenhall sounds like you are tbh - you failed to answer the question
@Andrea Mendenhall America free? Compared to the rest of the western world? Good one that. Particularly with a president openly abusing power.
Love Murray but he was a tiny bit snobbish at times and David made interesting counterpoints. Only thing I'd say to David is, yes, right wing media and certain public intellectuals make much of the 'cancel culture', and maybe they're pressing harder than the badness calls for, and thus you're right to point out the unnecessary emphasis, but we need public intellectuals pushing for open inquiry and free speech at all costs and to stamp out revisionist history and refuse the attempt to transform human nature by edicts from superintendents at all costs.
I think the general issue is, if you allow the small and seemingly insignificant instances to multiply, eventually you find yourself with a large scale phenomenon on your hands, which if problematic is a lot harder to sort out. It's crucial to get the meaning of small events right. David used to belittle the criticisms of SJW culture on college campuses by saying "it's just a bunch of kids with pink hair shouting, no one takes them seriously and they are not the left"; well, now the kids have poured into society and we clearly have a problem, and not a word has come out from David about this.
Douglass is an Alt right white supremacist. He talks about identity politics, but literally himself is engaged in identity politics.
@@yourfriendlyneighbourhoodr9390 "now the kids have poured into society and clearly we have a problem" did they? do we? It's still a tiny minority of people engaging in this, overwhelmingly online. As John Smith in the comment below says, it is the hard right that engage in identity politics more than any other group; to most people, issues of race are issues of values that need to be discussed and thought about, to white supremacists they (wrongly) see it as an existential threat and therefore won't shut up about it. They're also fantastic at propagandising these issues.
@@reggiewilko2125 have you, like, not seen the US? Have you not noticed the increasing division and polarisation? You'd have to be living under a rock. What needs to happen for you and Pakman to acknowledge there is something seething just beneath the surface and it's very close to erupting? Maybe your house needs to be wrecked, or your business destroyed, or you need to lose your job, for you to realise.
It's in collage campuses. It's in HR departments. It's in big tech. It's in the streets.
The only reason I can think of for people not wanting to see this is because although you disagree with the idiots in the streets, you share their political goals, so the useful idiots act as foot soldiers essentially.
None of this matters anyway because if you don't even think there is an issue to discuss then we'll never agree. Only time will tell I guess, and it will be too late by then
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn the left has made political discussions outside of identity politics impossible; although I do not agree with the way identity politics is strumentalised these days, you can't blame white people for reacting to ideas such as "whiteness"
Douglas is conservative so he would likely vote Trump if he could, however he probably didn’t want to get David emotional about that so he kept his silence. Respect
Murray made a great point at the end. If you can’t have the broad discussions, how could you have the more nuanced questions in the future.
The problem is that his appearance here defeats his point. The discussions are happening.
Respect to Pakman for bringing on a guest who very intelligent and perhaps Center-right.
No, Douglas is not centre-right...he's mainstream conservative right.
@@Rhubba
Mainstream in the UK is center right in US
true conservative. well my kind i guess so i'm prejudiced.
Why is this so suprising? People on the right talk to leftists as much as possible. You lefties are so in your bubble.
Bill maher is the only lefty i can think that will do it. Otherwise, crickets
I would wish David would push back on his last point a little bit since it goes both ways. In democratic areas it’s difficult to say you’re voting Trump and in Republican areas its the same for voting Biden. I agree that it isn’t statistically insignificant though it is much more even.
To add to this my conservative dad gets pretty mad and has sometimes made some thinly veiled joking threats about monetary support and other things if Biden wins even though I tell him he’ll still be just fine under Biden.
Yea, and British dude doesn't even live in America lol. Those conservatives he loves so much would cancel culture him for being gay.
But isn't this the unfortunate point that Douglas was making, that US politics has become too tribal and so discussion is breaking down, which leads to eruptions elsewhere? It's a pity your dad makes conversation difficult in this regard...
It is a very American "all or nothing" thing in politics. Which is weird because the end results in the US are largely the same as the US has checks on power so the role of the president is only a part of the equation of governance.
There wasn't really anything to push back on because he didn't say that it doesn't go both ways. His whole point was how polarised and hostile discussion is across the board. I'm sure he would agree that its an issue on both ends of the political spectrum.
Dave Pakman, it is a new phenomenon that bosses are telling their workers to read books like "White Fragility" or sharing large lists of books and movies about "black culture" telling them to educated themselves. This happened for an entire month where I work during the riots. That isn't normal and it's nothing like giving new employees skill-building books relevant to their job.
Excellent interview David! Thank you!
I'm not an American and I have no problem saying that Trump is bad for the world in general and that he has to go
so bad that he signed peace deals no one believed were possible.
@@mrfreeman2911 Hum, is it ? Which one do you have in mind ?
Damn, not even Murray wants his name tied to Trump.
Not even Murray?
@Taylor Jerman Really? It's pretty clear he was ducking this answer. He dosen't want the sound bite of him saying he would vote for Trump circulating.
Was very happy to see these two talk.
Love debate and discourse like this .
I think David is wrong. I know most people friends, neighbors, etc that won't talk politics period. Doesn't matter who it's with. We've been told for years that polite people don't discuss politics, religion or money. When I've pushed people to tell me the seem a bit embarassed about their vote and I think that comes from people voting because they aren't aware of what's even going on in the community square. They're voting Trump because they feel that's the appropriate vote but they don't have an explanation for their choice just some pithy comment like don't challenge me or don't talk about Trump, etc,
@@Unix815 I really don't see how you come to the conclusion that he regrets the discussion. A considerable amount of their conversation was about the problem of people being intolerant of those who hold a different view. It would therefore be a tad ironic if a man who speaks of the dangers of suppressing different opinions then says he regrets having a discussion with someone who has a different opinion from him.
Murray ended very strongly. Even though David may say his points are statistically negligible, you'd have to be blind to not see destroyed city centers around this country and the cultural rift that has now become a chasm
This was great but too short. Douglas (like most political commentators) tends to only have discussions with like-minded people. It's really valuable for those of us who aren't either way inclined to see his ideas challenged. Please have another, longer discussion! Your calm and measured approach is much needed in the online political debate world.
You've not seen much of Douglas then. He cut his teeth in the Oxford Union debate circuit where you only go up against people who disagree.
You don't have to go far to find plenty of his debates where his views are robustly challenged.
Douglas Murray is one of my favorites. Great job David!
This is great, Douglas Murray is one of view conservative intellectual I take serious. Even though I do not agree with much of his beliefs, he is an interesting character, and sometimes really gets me thinking.
LOL I think the posh accent has bamboozled you. There was nothing "intellectual" about this discussion - just hysteria with little evidence presented.
@@MrDnB89 No, I should have watched the whole thing. It is a shame, there wasn't a lot of deeper discussion on things, sadly.
I’m watching this and relishing when David puts Douglas against the ropes with regard to voting in the US. His excuse for not saying whether he’d vote for Trump boils down to “I don’t want to show my true colors and lose readers.”
Untrue - personally, as a Brit, I would try to be courteous in the US and not nail my colours to the mast
I thought the same thing. I’d like to hear these two talk more. David is a great person to challenge some of his views as he presents a progressive liberal perspective and isn’t part of the ‘regressive left’ Douglas has become known for attacking. I think Douglas and that whole echo chamber needs to pay more attention to the David’s of the world. I did! It’s how I shifted back over to the left.
Douglas has an easy 30 IQ points on David.
@@JL-wc7th totally agree!
@@TheKFMProductions I think that if you are as informed about US politics as Douglas is, then stating whether you'd vote for Trump or not would be fairly straight forward (as David points out with the example of US & Argentina).
However, I understand that perhaps it's a cultural thing that british people don't like to make pronouncements of this sort, as you point out.
The front tires are almost always turning to the left, the right rear wheel goes full stop except for rare occasions when there is a turn to the right then it's going full throttle.
I appreciate people doing work on meta-politics as it were - we really need to not get so fixated on individual issues and get our processes for coming to terms with the issues sorted, although often the issues feel to pressing to really do this. Good discussion.
My only other problem with this interview is that it was only just getting going. I wish Pakman really was able to really dissect Murray's slickly articulated but very dodgy analysis
I recommend checking out Current Affairs' article on Douglas Murray's book The Strange Death of Europe. The article is called "The Death of Europe Is Greatly Exaggerated".
Yes, one of the better interviews of Murray, so kudos to David, but I feel he could have pushed back more. But I also understand that if you push back on every single questionable statement, you run out of time and don't get to address the big issues.
Douglass is an Alt right white supremacist. He talks about identity politics, but literally himself is engaged in identity politics.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn you are totally missing the point dude..
@@paddylack no u
Conservatives in the U.S. are extremely individualistic and don't seem to be capable of empathy for anyone who looks or lives remotely differently than they choose to and believe is the right way. Some of them are just rich, and conservatism benefits the wealthy the most. Religious conservatives are actively fighting for their religion and narrow views of what is "moral" to rule in this country and you CAN'T have a reasonable conversation with them because it comes down to the fact that they think you are a dirty, evil heathen for "going against the bible". This is not the same dynamic as elsewhere in the world. You can't have an honest conversation with them because they are coming from a place of dishonesty - they do not believe you could possibly have a right opinion or argument because you are not their version of religious, therefore are evil and wrong. They do not want to find common ground with you because that would be compromising their religious beliefs.
When I talk about religious conservatives, I mean my entire family, so I KNOW what it's like to try to have a reasonable difference of opinion with them. You CAN'T.
I feel you. It's one thing to have a disagreement on taxation or what you think the role of government is or whatever. It's entirely different when you have people who would without hesitation roll back something like the supreme court's ruling on gay marriage.
I wish this was a 2 hour convo. Fascinating.
I’m looking forward to this. I like Douglas even though I am not on his side of the political spectrum.
Same
He comes with good intent and is smart and articulate. He's great to listen to.
he pushes some pretty bad things in a casual articulate manner people enjoy
@@hybridh9702 He's challenging but not always thought out. He's fine, but not rigorous. As with anything I think the importance of his position is in-between where he and David seem to think it is... I'm not sure he thinks it's more important than other issues in the US right now but I agree with David that the "culture war" issues are back-seat to the economy and pandemic handling. He'll is put climate change issues above culture issues as well
He's a fraud.
"Who would you vote for?"
IMMEDIATLY DODGES QUESTION
Really reminds me of the popular conservative strategy, when cornered, just say you don't answer hypotheticals... ;)
Also the tendency to pretend you’re a liberal who has been changed. He LEFT THE LEFT. Megagrift.
Douglas Murray seems not to know that Boris Johnson is our Prime Minister. Does he really not know why everyone here calls him “Discount Trump”? What about Bolsonaro....?
@bill mill there’s a reason why Trump bragged to the press that “some people think he’s like me”....
@bill mill - ah. Got it. You’re afraid people are finally beginning to see your emperors really don’t have any clothes on and aren’t going to be able to protect the status quo you’ve grown up happy living in, and entitled to expect, after all. You think an astoundingly immoral racist like Trump is the model for the kind of leader that really appeals to you. Understood.
@bill mill - Biden worked for the only black US president in human history for eight years and, if he wins he will give the US their first black Vice President in human history. So, given those facts, want a perfect example of selective cognitive dissonance?
Donald Trump spent FIVE YEARS STRAIGHT desperately trying to convince terrified White people that the only black president in human history was secretly a foreign-born, Kenyan Muslim who had his birth certificate and college records faked so he could one day steal the presidency from someone legitimate, American and white. Trump then added to that sense of unearned grievances in White people by bitterly complaining that the only reason the media wasn’t covering the “biggest political scandal in American history” was because Obama was black and they were all being too “politically correct”.
Simple question: did that happen? Yes or no?
More of this, please.
Interesting interview, thank you David.
Both the left and the right like this guy.
I wish there was more like him
He has too many principles in the way of telling us who he'd vote for but in good conscience will openly bash multiple American states for being in a frenzy about cancel culture without addressing why people are at each other's throats and what led to this point in the first place? All these people talk about rising tension and inability to listen to contradicting opinions without ever discussing context. It doesn't make you neutral to never criticize anything by leaving out context, it just makes you willfully ignorant to serve your own narrative.
Yes!! Like, it can’t be that the Republican Party has fully embraced authoritarianism and very thinly veiled racism. The problem is not that the Left needs to be nicer and more open minded lol
He did not criticize any party he criticized events and phenomena. You can criticize any phenomenon without being biased. And, believe me, he knows the background. The interview was just too short, unfortunately.
@@1969fata I never mentioned any party? I mentioned events without context.
An excellent thoughtful debate I would like to hear more from Mr Murray
Totally missed the point on the books there, but otherwise glad that they had this conversation.
There was a good bit of backtracking in this interview by Murray when pressed by David. Lots of strawmaning of the left.
What's an example of Douglas strawmaning?
@mario mario Not every Trump supporter is screaming maskless at a rally. Being a Trump supporter in the era of cancel culture, if you don't understand that many Trump supporter don't stamp their political views to their forehead, or even be honest with a pollster. Maybe rethink that view after you see how the election goes.
@@CerebralFriction you're just making the same claim "people won't even be honest with a pollster". Yeah we'll see after the election
What a strange NO OPINION guy....
gerard dearie 6:00. Politely, maybe listen more closely.
Time to show Trump and Republicans that "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." ☆VOTE THEM OUT☆
I wish I can see the 'discussions' David is speaking of in the mainstream media.
In spite of my personal disagreements with Douglas I do like him and I think this was a very good interview