Whatever Happened With Xbox Shader Feedback Sampling?
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- Опубліковано 6 тра 2024
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Developer here, haven't used sampler feedback myself, but the way I understand it is that it allows you to only load the parts of a texture you actually need in memory.
To go into more detail: Textures are read on the GPU using a 'texture sampler'. The idea behind 'sampler feedback' is that you can render a frame, and then get feedback on what parts of the texture was actually sampled (used in that frame). Textures are loaded as mipmaps (different quality levels), with each mipmap having a number of tiles, and you can choose which tiles you want loaded into memory or not. So based on the 'sampler feedback' information from the previous frame you can unload the texture tiles the game didn't use, and load the tiles the game needed, but didn't have. That's the general theory anyway.
The problem you have is the amount of complexity it adds (as after every frame you need to figure out what bits of texture needs to be loaded or unloaded), there is also a runtime cost to handle all this dynamic loading/unloading of data. And since most textures are tiled/repeated across large surfaces in games anyway, it's quite rare that you would only need, say, two thirds of a texture in memory, it does happen, but the real world benefits are somewhat questionable.
Taking all this into account, most developers would rather stick to what works. Loading entire mipmap levels is simple, with no ongoing runtime cost and is proven to work as that's how it's been done for many years.
Thanks for admitting devs are just lazy now adays. What are we even paying 70 dollars a game for now if you don’t want to use the tools they give you?
@@toddmacinnes983 Not sure how anything I said translates into me "admitting devs are just lazy". Do you not understand the concept of runtime costs? Adding support for sampler feedback has a performance impact on the game. If you're saving 5% memory in return, then it's not worth the performance hit. As I said in my original comment, the real world benefits of sampler feedback is questionable. Factor in the complexity added to the engine, and it isn't worth doing. In short, if the tools are useful, we'll use them. The fact that no one is using sampler feedback tells you everything you need to know.
As for your question around why you're paying $70, games have been $60 since the mid 1990s, just factoring in inflation, games should be costing over $120 at this point. But despite games getting significantly more expensive to make (even the voice acting budgets these days are several times what it used to cost to make an entire game on the SNES, where games were already selling for $60), the price has remained the same for around 30 years. There is no way it was going to stay that way forever.
@@RazielAU That is just the arm chair console BS.
What about all the 3D objects like trees, buildings, and all the greebles and set dressings and decorations that the camera only sees one side of at a time? Wouldn't they only be seeing half of all those individual textures?
Still the basic texture compression methods in general are terrible and only portable GPUs have better options for it (as far as I know).
Glad to hear a point I have always made confirmed - PS5 has benefitted from a bespoke, tailored API whereas Series X is shackled by the generic Direct X API.
The easiest way to explain API is how you talk to your hardware.
Imagine you have group of people to assemble a car engine with each on of them got a specific tools to turn all of those pieces into one engine. But you’re limited with traditional way of doing things (rachet, spanar screwdriver etc). In GPU context, this is what we call hardware limitations or features that’s available on your GPU.
You can tell one person to assemble one part and tell second person to wait and do their job ONLY after the first guy finishes his job. This way of doing work or instruction is what we call API. This is an example of bad API. So a better API will work around the limitations of the hardware (in this case the number of people and tools that they got) to do work more efficiently by telling them not to wait instead do their own work synchronously or asynchronously and wait until the last person completed their job so you can build the engine much faster together.
Why only few GPU support features form DX12?
Because not all shop got autonomous robot to assemble the engine. So you need a proper API or instruction to trigger those machines to help these people assemble the engine much faster.
If that makes sense.
🤓
Alex’s explanation of what an API is, is remarkably confusing in my opinion.
An API is an application programming interface. It’s how developers interact with other parts of a system.
Alex is a poor communicator in general. He can be very knowledgeable about some things, but has a tendency to go on tangents, sometimes multiple tangents within the same sentence which makes it difficult to follow along. The tangents make it seem as though he’s more interested in being perceived as knowledgeable about the minute details of a topic than he is in actually communicating a coherent thought. It’s frustrating listening to him in non-scripted speech.
no it's not lol yours isn't good because you just spelled out the acronym and you said something super vague. He fit it in context sufficiently.
@@brainwashedburgerworshipper Yeah, I explained in general what an API is, because someone asking “What is an API” probably… doesn’t know what an API is. Being too specific like Alex here (though to be honest, even then I would find his explanation confusing) isn’t going to help someone unfamiliar with the concept get a grasp on what it means.
@@JBaughbperfect comment in my opinion. People that do this usually don't fully understand the topic themselves. And big words tend to make less educated people believe you.
@@brainwashedburgerworshipperno he didn't, you are gassing.
WTH, it’s a feature that still hasn’t been used yet? Goddamn they need to let go of the last gen consoles, sheesh.
no, the problem is not last gen. the problem is PS5 doesn't support that. and if PS5 does not support it, the feature goes to the bin, like many other, developers wont loose time on xbox or pc.
Then make a better exclusive, you dummy! Instead of multi platform ones
@@AnDre-fj5lbso what if ps5 doesn’t support it, why did NO 1st party game use it in 4 years? 😂
Even 1st party knows this is all a bullshit tech, just like series s was touted as next gen 1440p 60-120fps minimum 🤣🤣 but every dev with a brain knows a console with 6gb usable memory like series s is HORRIBLE
@@Teja They can't even make a good game, give them a break. But yea, series s was controversial since the beginning, significantly inferior
Devs develop for PS5 first. That's why XSS features aren't used at all.
Devs are complaining about insufficient memory on Series S while at the same time ignoring the feature that would mitigate that. Makes sense....
They wouldn't be using virtual textures on just the Series S though, they'd be doing the same on Series X and PS5. They'd still be designing their game around 16GB of RAM and the Series S would still not have enough. It solves nothing.
too much time getting something like this to work to still probably have very limited results
Microsoft should've spent a little bit more time on the drawing board when designing the Series S
10 gb is embarassing... even One X was 12 gb so Series S should have been 12 minimum@@ShadyPaperclips
Why should devs spend an inordinate amount of time working around the smallest userbase. If ms sold as many xboxes as nintendo sold switches devs would spend more time optimizing for it.
One X was designed around 4K, Series S is 1440p or 1080p, rarely goes higher @@Radek494
API stands for Application Programming Interface, it is basically a standard set of commands like functions, datastructures and interfaces, that a system makes available for programs to use. So on Xbox if you want to render 3D graphics you would use the Direct3D API, to use the controller you'd use Xinput, Xaudio to play sound, etc. Obviously the nicer an API is and the more features it has the easier it is going to be to program for that system. I can't make a comparison between DX and PS5 since Sony's tools are secret, but DX is generally considered to be pretty good, and back in the day it was a big enough selling point compared to the other consoles to name the entire system after it, the "Direct-X-Box" if you will.
Pretty embarrassing that MS own first party games don't even take advantage of the hardware
The title could just be “whatever happened to Xbox?”
The same thing that happened to redfall, it got cancelled 😂😅😂
They probably fired it.
Thank you for giving me a simple definition of API 😅
So even MS devs dont use it?
because it isnt new its an old technique called virtual texturing, has existed since ps2 tricks and has been in games since xbox 360, also it is already used in games just not all of them i think horizon on series consoles uses it
Likely explanation is that it's a lot more harder to implement the Shader Feedback Sampling Streaming that Devs just outright ignore its existence Likely not worth the effort for a feature that only the Xbox Series X would benefit in.
It's often the case that you can either improve performance by using more memory or save memory at the cost of performance.
So if API is software based, does that mean that Microsoft could potentially do a firmware update to fix the shader issue?
Yes, assuming that inefficient API is the problem.
@@sjneow but it could also mean getting rid of DirectX which could potentially be a problem. As far as I'm aware, the Velocity Architecture was built around it but I could be wrong.
@@cun7us yeah, I bet part of the inefficiency is because it is an API that needs to support PC as well
@Alex, PS5 being the primary dev platform has nothing to do with the lack of implementation of Sampler Feedback Sampling, First Party Xbox games could use it on XSX and PC and they don't. Why is that?
sampler feedback is also available on ps5 and every gpu since ps4 it isnt a new technology, alex is simply playing the praise xbox api song here, literally lots of games have used virtual texturing since doom xbox 360
Whatever happened to rapid packed math??
I think Oliver, "though not here" would have explained what is an API and Sampler Feedback System in a much better way for us to understand. Truth be told Alex's explanation was very limited and somewhat confusing, almost as if he himself doesn't understand. 🤔
PS5 pairity clause its holding next gen back like the ps2 days
Better question is, whatever happened to xbox after the 360 era?
Dom mattrick nearly destroyed the Xbox brand and then now they just shut down studios, cancel games or just shove out unfinished games
DF video titles: "What happened With Electrified Selector Capacitator Contextual Triangular Benefactor Inserter Sequencer with VRD and Shade Residual Bouncer Manager" 😂
That's ps5 only.
VRS also another feature cool in theory but sucks in practice
same as sampler feedback, its isnt new but alex keeps parroting it as some fresh new tek while its been there since xbox 360
Shader Feedback Sampling?🤣
Unreal Engine and Unity already support virtual textures in software with most of the benefits. There's very little benefit to using a hardware version that only works on a minority platform.
And there are other unexplored alternatives for this problem, such as better compression via custom shaders and file formats, try to determine the correct texture resolution given the screen resolution and object area on the screen, ...
Virtual texturing is very different than sampler feedback. They are not the same at all. However, sampler feedback streaming actually accelerates virtual texturing for a double whammy so to speak.
Intel demonstrated this where they had 350 GB worth of textures being represented by 250 MB of heap memory.
That's a big deal...
VT is also unpredictable And CPU intensive which further adds to Unreal engines CPU limitations.
@@meshingaround9828 I don't know the difference betwen virtual textures and megatextures either. Or if only estimating the required MIP levels and texture resolution would have a 'good enough' effect at a fraction of the cost.
really a big shame not to use these features
Like every other feature it supposedly has huh. Xbox is like Kool aid substituted with Salt
It's not exactly a hardware feature when both Unreal Engine and Unity can do the exact same thing on a software level. Also, it's not done in any games because SFS sounds good in theory, but has zero benefit in practicality. Even after using virtual textures, they'd still be designing their game with 16GB RAM instead of 8GB. So Series S would still suffer the same. It's not because games are made for PS5 first as Alex was trying to insinuate. If that was the case, why hasn't a single Xbox 1st party game used it yet? Surely they weren't making their games with PS5 in mind!
I personally think Microsoft should've kept the same amount of ram as XSX yet still have the lesser amount of graphics cores. If they all had the same amount of ram the Series S would be great.
Whatever happened to Xbox promises...
Alex explaining API for people who already know what things are :D
Ps5 is like iPhone it’s just has better optimization but android is better just like Xbox better but optimization in social media and games are better unfortunately
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Rich, why donyou always read the punctuation/question marks etc?
It's not right.
It's wrong.
Why would devs "develop around PlayStation" and PC ? Xbox be a side consideration? There are more PC players than Sony will ever have. Sony just took a knee to the PCMR so even they know they are a peasant.
It is really funny reading these unhinged takes on events around HD2.
alex is simply making false statements to whitewash his earlier lies that series x will outperform ps5 because of 12 teraflops, when the games came out and they all perform the same on both consoles he started misleading people by claiming devs prefer playstation while on the contrary all games are developed on pc and then ported to console meaning xbox and pc should be priority since they use the same api
no cares about xbox ms have sold us out
It went in the bin where it belongs… whatever it is/was
My god poor Microsoft. They just can't win lol. Even with that Windows and Office money, they just don't know how to make great games, and no acquisition big enough can fix that apparently. Is there a tally on Microsoft game acquisitions? Nearly $80 billion? $90bn? That's literally military-industrial complex money. Xbox system software says it all. It's a market tested, incoherent, total mess designed by a committee. It's so sad it's almost comical.
Simply because Microsoft's gaming model is wrong, they are becoming Netflix in every possible way! They want quantity over quality.
They just closed down great studios. They don't know wtf they're doing.
Can't they win? What exactly can't they win? They pay less development money than Sony, but they make more profit than Sony. The ignorance of some Ps fanboys below this video is shameful.
Xbox lies this gen:
1- sampler feedback streaming
2- Mesh shaders
3- Machine learning
4- Direct storage
5- 60fps will be standard
6- Most powerful console
It is the most powerful console.... PS5 just wins in SSD potential
Shut down along with its studios
Xbox taking some massive Ls today.😅
Past decade*
Sony helldiver 2 historical L ..... now bending over tnx to the pc community
@@mikeuk666You're over 50 and talking like that wow can definitely tell you've lived a very failed life.
Direct X happened. Microsoft fails again...
Sony ps5 is bonkers again....
No body buys xbox anymore
Xbox SX power was overrated from the start. Tons of buzzwords for achieving results barely distinguishable from the other weaker console.
Series X isn't a bad console by any means, in fact it's very good, but like you say it's not any better than PS5 in relative terms. If Xbox actually produced a game that showed quantifiable results, such as Insomniac did with Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart that was custom made for the PS5, then their claim of having the "most powerful console" might have had some merit.
@@cun7usI never said bad, but overrated in terms of performance. One would expect all those buzzwords (Full RDNA 2, mesh shaders, VRS, sampler feedback, 12 fixed vs 10 variable tflops and so on) to stack on top of one another to create real differences, but in practice, the IQ is the same, the performance is within margin of error most of the times. Although the same can be said about PS5's ludicrous SSD transfers speeds and compresion techniques, in practice, they are marginally better than Xbox's more "traditional" approach when it comes to load times.
@@DrKrFfXx000000000000Same for both consoles....
Now those same gullible folk will be buying the ps5 Pro....
@@DrKrFfXx000000000000 After 4 years we can say with certitude that Sony had done a better engineering job overall, they used less silicon to produce the same if not better results! less Compute units but at higher speed, less memory bandwidth but a unified system, less CPU speed but with boost mode, more efficient decompression hardware to avoid stutters (Unreal engine) and more important: One single hardware = no extra optimization!
@@DrKrFfXx000000000000huh? “Ps5’s ludicrous speeds and compression techniques “
The fck r u on about? That was LITERALLY proven by Ratchet Anf Clank. In this same channel, even they tried to Ratchet and Clank rift apart on HDD, it fell apart, and near the portals where the insomniac team said it’s “magic of SSD” well guess what it IS. Portal jumping got stuck for minutes when DF tried to do that on a HDD in PC.
PS: Insomniac never said it was only possible on ps5's SSD, they saif ut was due to the SSD in PS5 they were ablr to do it! as in SSD was thr magic maker!
So yes, PlayStation PROVED their tech. It aint ludicrous like Xbox
And regards with Kraken compression, that’s ALSO proven. Look at size of Ratchet and Clank on ps5 vs pc. Bruh you needed until 2023 for Microsoft to release Direct Storage for windows, after getting inspired by ps5’s krsken decompression. so r u saying microsoft is stupid 😂
stop coping
Skip
Bye
Both companies lied with series x it was 60fps will be the standard and ps5 with 8k on the box and ratchet and clank is only possible to play on ps5 because of the super lighting fast ssd
Rachet and Clank runs on an HDD. If you need a SSD to run a game that's just bad optimization.
"Linneman notes that Rift Apart is somewhat more playable on a faster hard drive in a higher-spec PC, but it's still not a match for a proper, modern SSD. I guess that technically means Rift Apart is "possible" without a PS5-grade SSD, but I'm not sure I'd categorize that clip as appearing at all playable. One dev from Insomniac couldn't resist a little "as we said" jab with these results."
All you had to do was read the actual article for full context. People like you are why XBOX is hot garbage.
They didn't lie about R&C. Your taking statements out of context. The game could not be made as it is on an HDD. To get it playing on am HDD requiring hardware more powerful then PS5 or far more compromise then the PS5.
@@deathtrooper2048 R&C can be played on HDD. It can't be played almost seamlessly, the way it was designed, on an HDD.
@@gothpunkboy89 fake 😂
What ever happened to Ray traced audio they tried to make a big deal? Lol there's a ton of shit they market at a console launch that goes nowhere....
Why does the ps controller have a "touch pad"? Nobody uses this crap lol
Literally the newest PS5 exclusive Stellar Blade uses the touchpad..
Wha..what do you touch with it?@@wmoule
@@wmoule lol games have used it...for useless nothing's that traditionally would have just been done with a different button to press. It's a gimmick. That's the point. Shit, most games just use it as a glorified pause button to take you into a menu or something
More games use Dualsense's touch pad than Xbox's first party have used any of it's special features
@@ShadyPaperclips I'll take your word for it. I wasn't comparing Xbox vs ps in anyway.
Xbox marketed Ray traced audio at one point. Back when most console players didn't even know what Ray tracing was let alone what it does for audio.
I also gave an example for ps. The touchpad is a gimmick. If it wasn't for PS4, and compatability, I doubt it would have been on the dual sense because nobody really used it in any meaningful way
Alex is so upset that Xbox consoles are overrated lmao
Cool attention seeking there kid 😂
It's more the Devs not using the tools given to them.
Marketing BS of Microsoft as we know it
Series S is a huge mistake.
That mistake is the best selling Xbox console, I have it and I enjoy it a lot. I’m a hardcore gamer and yet don’t give a shit about a little more pixels or res in textures.
It wasn't a mistake (sure it's not powerful), but it gave people a cheaper option to play newer games/backwards library.
Still it was a mistake from a development standpoint. They were better off just releasing a digital only version like PlayStation. But they wanted to undercut Sony soooo bad.
@@arturoarturo2570 Thats cool, but xbox is still the least selling console manufacturer, and honestly its pretty sad that because of players like you on series s, the entire generation of games is now ruined and limited heavily because of the 10gb ram limit that inherently affects game design and how complex these games can get.
@@markedone494 If that's the case, what affect are all the pc's which have less than 6GB of VRAM (Steam is the source). Your statement would mean pc game development is still in the stone ages.
Another reason Xbox tax is real. Xbox created the most perfect gaming machine with all these features to make developing games easier and to make games better for gamers yet because it's Xbox no developers take advantage of these features.
Xbox's own developers don't even make use of it.
so perfect in fact no Xbox studio has taken advantage of any of these "great" features
they're still waiting for da tools right?
Another reason to standardize everything again instead of each vendor inveting its own bad implementation of the same idea.
That's a gnarly facial scar! Pray tell!
Ew, who the hell says things like that?
Attention seeking kids award for you
When Alex was just starting out in tech, he built a robot with a Raspberry Pi. One day his sister was playing with the robot, taking it apart and putting dresses on it, etc. Alex noticed it and tried to stop her, but it was too late, the robot got pissed off and smacked Alex with a Barbie doll. When he opens his mouth enough, you can still see a Barbie leg sticking out inside...
@@defeqel6537 i read the whole thing thinking it was gonna be a real reason why... damn😂
@@defeqel6537 so this is how wild rumors gets spreaded around, wiched
Gaybox fanqueers take another L!!! Shutting down studios in Bethesda!!!! A trillion dollar company and still doesn't care about the gaybox brand
This channel is not for you.
What are you, twelve?
@@halofreak1990gaybox is a cancerous brand
How old are you? Are your parents ok with you talking like this, boy?
Cringe 😆