After watching this in the USDC my thought was that the knife wielders had an extra, perhaps "unrealistic" advantage due to the fact that everyone was pulling their punches/kicks on top of all the body armor. The lack of actual damage dealt and need for the knife wielders to protect themselves more seems to be a pretty significant factor in the outcome. Jeff Phillips (co-organizer of the USDC) also said later referring to this event that he wanted to see the contestants hit the guys harder for this very reason. It's a bit validating to see Wonder Boy say something similar here as well about just going for a knockout punch (even if he vastly favors striking to begin with). IMO the outcome would have been noticeably different; even if the guy wielding the deadly force of the knife is always going to be in the better position, you can't discount the fact that being hit squarely, full force by a strong and skilled martial artist is also deadly, most especially if the knife wielder is not as big/strong or doesn't have fighting experience (in this case the attackers WERE big and strong and athletic though also didn't have much fighting experience).
I think you're totally correct - it's also why all of the, "sport," martial arts are incapable of fully replicating a fight to the death. If someone actually attacked any of these competitors with a knife, I don't think they would have been stabbed that many times, even if the attacker was also a martial artist. They definitely would have been landing much harder blows more capable of altering/interrupting the attacker's movements. They would have been even more adrenaline-flooded + more willing & able to stretch beyond their physical limitations. Most importantly, there are no rules when you're fighting for your life. All the stuff that's banned in nearly every combat sport is exactly the stuff that you need when you're trying to survive, and that's especially true when you're at an obvious disadvantage, e.g. the attacker has a knife & you don't. The obvious ones are the things that have been deemed too dangerous for combat sport, e.g. intentional limb breaks, curbing the knife arm, pressing on/striking the windpipe or temples, intentional injuries to the genitals, etc. I'd add that all of the tools that are usually lumped into the, "women's self-defense," arsenal are not just allowed but useful. Biting, scratching, hair pulling, clawing, scratching & striking the eyes - there's no such thing as respectability in the face of someone who intends to kill you.
No, the hands will just rabidly stab at you, I don't know how Wesley Vance got both the knife and then the pair of scissors when Kyle Neil tried to kill him, but Wesley who was 1 3rd the mass of Neil , basically did what happened in this video , and it took over 200 before Neil died. "I knew he was trying kill me, I just kept stabbing until he went weak and died"
Your video with Icy Mike and Ramsey Dewey on obscure MMA rules, and Matt Clinton's entire run on this show really makes me appreciate how useful swearing at your opponent is for getting in a fighting mindset
Icy Mike kicking the knife out of his attacker's hand is one of my favorite moments from the whole USDC competition. Oh, and our boy Sensei Seth getting the silver medal!
Man, it took FOREVER to set aside 23 minutes to watch this video, but I'm glad I finally got around to it. Loving all of your breakdowns of the Ultimate Self Defense Challenge events! And yeah, as someone who is horrifically allergic to poison oak . . . you have my sympathy, good sir.
A lot of the safety measures made it difficult for the defender to win these rounds. Limited vision, shorter weapon that doesnt get stuck ever, reduced effect of strikes from all the padding, etc. I expect everyone would have done better against a real knife but would also have gone to the hospital
I had a little bit of a debate with the Aussie (I forget his name) that designed the tests over on Rokus' page. I think the knife test left a lot to be desired. 1) A knife isn't a lightsaber. It doesn't instantly cut on contact. You have to apply force in the right direction -- especialy when you're talking about cutting through denim, leather, or other clothes of decent weight. A better simulator than the pen is to use a rubber knife with non-smear lipstick on the cutting edges.The you get a much truer read on whether a cut/stab was truly wounding. 2) I thought the scoring undervalued some of the strikes that happened before the knife damaged occurred -- like your big sidekick and I think Matt had a lead left hook at the merge that was a potential fight-ender. 3) No one switches hands in a real fight. Thats something people do when they know its a game. 4) The gloves were a huge impediment -- they make it harder to trap the knife and harder to score a one-shot knockout. I agree with Wonderboy -- you basically have three valid (but not great) options. A) Strike the knife arm (defang). B) Secure the knife arm/wrist/hand, takedown, and head strike. or C) Try to score a knockout with a big single strike at the merge. The rules and safety gear were tilted against all three of these. I thought you did a pretty good job and you got cheesed (to a certain degree) by the scoring system -- which in turn cost you the entire competition.
I agree on so many level. I hardly doubt anyone will change the knife hand in combat. The attacker will would cut himself as well. Plus all the gear which reduced impact. Still a tough test but so many point are not realistic
''No one switches hands in a real fight. Thats something people do when they know its a game.'' wait what? of course they would, ı sure as hell would like who wouldn't try to get their weapon into a more operable position?
@@noobguy9973 There's logic and then there's real world observation. While it may make sense logically to switch your knife to the other hand, it is very very rare to see that in real knife fights (as recorded on security vide, in police reports, etc.). Nearly everybody instinctively just clamps down harder when someone tries to take their knife.
Of all the challenges, this is the one I had the most issues with when watching initially. Like, yeah, there are accounts of people getting stabbed between upwards of 50 or more times in a knife attack, but in general there are so many variable in this exercise that make it a bad model for a knife attack. But like you said, from a pure competition stand point at least the rules were consistent for all the participants.
If anything it's great to show that some mcdojos with their silly knife defense routines are really underselling it. Worst thing is a student could get seriously injured because they believe they can disarm a knife attacker.
@@Vecklera proplem in this Challenge is, that you can't knock Out the knife attacker. I feel Like your only Chance to win against a knife is to ko the Person before they can seriously hurt you. But you propably have to get really lucky for that to Work
The challenge has its own weaknesses in potraying a real knife fight. Nevertheless, even with such limitations, it shows that Knife fighting is not a joke and very dangerous. In reality, even a slash to the skin is enough to deter the defender and cause fear, let alone a single stab. You either die or suffer major injuries after each fight.
I think my biggest problem with knife defense as a sort of genre of self-defense is that there's a lot of people who will spend time showing how x or y mcdojo technique doesn't work reliably enough to be effective. that's fair enough, but that's also like, 10% of the work you need to do. it's really easy for people for people to identify when something is wrong, but not why it's wrong or how it's wrong. most of the time, when they tell you how or why, they're full of shit. I see this exercise as kind of similar to that. self-defense schools kind of just accept that since there's no way to prevent a random knife attacker from stabbing you in the back in a large crowd, knife defense, generally, is impossible, and the best strategy is to be a paranoid freak that avoids large crowds and events and isolates themselves and stockpiles guns. shoot first, prevent a theoretical threat, ask questions later. strangle a homeless man to death on the NYC metro because he's "acting threatening". The point of this drill isn't to figure out where near-miss scenarios are, i.e. the scenarios where you learn the most, the point of this drill is just to throw people in the deep end to flounder and then say from that, that knife defense is impossible. this is kind of the same thing as if you put someone in a 40 yard open field quickdraw without a gun and then said guns are the most optimal weapon when they get shot. of course that's the case. teaches us nothing. not even quite as good as the mythbusters test to see if you can dodge bullets. so idk, obviously kind of frustrated by this portion of this event a little bit, and the event in general, not gonna lie.
What I find cool about this is that it seems like wrestling stuff akin to defense against a dagger in HEMA seems to work to some regard, I wonder how that kind of training would hold up to a test like this. When we did dagger sparring we used to take rubber daggers/knives, and put lipstick on them, and then wear a white shirt, maybe that works more for the knife poking out of your hand further than a marker.
I did several Kali and Eskrima edged weapons seminars that did the lipstick and white tee-shirt thing too. Really gives you perspective on how quickly a knife fight can get super ugly, even against an untrained opponent.
Poison Ivy advice: Get cheap alcohol, put in freezer (booze will not freeze), once cold take out and pour over infected skin. It sounds crazy but it takes the itch/pain away
This was less a knife defense challenge and more "could you survive 80 seconds of prison shanking in a larger than average closet?" and the answer is, unsurprisingly, no. You couldn't run/escape, you couldn't make distance, and the knife wasn't a knife. It was a tiny shank. You can't lay out the opponent because they're a partner, not an enemy. There was only one way this exercise could end, and that's in failure. My issue here is that some people are going to have the take away that all/any attempts to deal with a person with a knife will end in death, so why bother learning/trying any of it?
You're also right about the 'blade' it's harder in one way to control the hand when it's just the fist rather than something with a hilt you can try and disarm. I suspect the test is designed to make you realise you WILL get effed up with a knife
Also, another issue I remember Theign Thrand bringing up with markers once upon a time is that the marker needs no force to leave a mark on the shirt, but real cuts and stabs need at least some force behind them to cause real injury. This is more of a problem with simulated cuts than stabs, but knives are still just force multipliers, not magic lightsabers.
@@formlessone8246 I dunno, a razor sharp knife really doesn't take much force at all. I was using an excessively sharpened machete in the backyard and was pushing some chopped weeds out of the way with the blade and just barely touched my knee with it. next thing i know I feel wet stuff running down my leg. Had a gash to tend to. i wonder if one of those fake collapsing knives with some kind of sensor in it could do a better representation. I guess in the end there's nothing quite like the real thing.
@@litpath3633 well, firstly, on boney parts of the body like the knee or scalp the skin breaks and cuts more easily because it has nowhere to go. That's why you see so many scalp cuts in bare knuckle boxing, or why kids easily scrape their knees doing all the running around and tripping on stuff that they do. However, the bones also provide their own protection in those cases. Second, if you even throw a T-shirt over your body, it greatly increases the difficulty in cutting through unless the knife is truly razor sharp. The thicker the clothing, the harder time the blade will have, because the cloth will bunch up. Nylon windbreakers are especially tough to cut relative to their thickness. This is an aspect of the knife that I don't hear many self defense guys talk about because it seems like most of them are learning knife techniques from FMA, and forget how the climate of the Philippines may effect their martial arts. It's mostly HEMA people I see talk about the interaction between blades and clothes, although the thing about nylon windbreakers did come from a SD guy. I think the fact that they wear thicker stuff in Europe has a lot to do with it. Here in the US it's going to depend on time of year and the state you live in, whereas a stab will probably go through even a thick coat. All the coat will do is limit the penetration. But markers also suck at representing a blade long enough to penetrate that.
I remember watching that episode and thinking the body lock is so counterintuitive. I think the best strategy in that situation is to fight on the Blackfoot and circle on the wall landing kicks/counter shots and hope you can lead yourself to the door and run out. Not saying it would work but it makes more sense than closing the distance with the threat.
Yeah, Seth, I'm pretty sure if there was no headgear and you weren't being nice, that sidekick to headbutt-on-jaw combo would definitely have ended that encounter lol.
I think you're absolutely right about letting him get to the wall at 5:03 - of the three aspects of "connection", one is connection with the environment. If you're free-floating in space, you can't generate force very well. It's the same with sweeps, throws, punches, kicks, etc.; disconnect your opponent from the environment, you have control of them. Great video, Seth! Hope you stop itching soon.
hey Seth, thank you for the videos! you've taught me a lot and have started me on my martial arts journey. thanks a lot! also I hope that your arm will get better.
You need some sort of spring covering the tip of the marker so that it has to get pressed in enough to count. Half those wounds would be paper cuts irl
Aggressive mindset is one of the things that Krav Maga does right. I had a Krav Maga training from the lead bodyguard of the Danish royal family once (really nice guy) and he could be so loud and aggressive that just the idea of fighting him scared me. Amok is a knife fighting system (by Tom Sotis I think) and they use a lot of forearm strikes to the knife hand when blocking to (hopefully) let them drop the knife due to pain and injury to the muscles and flexor tendons of the forearm. Getting a good hard strike into the forearm can make you open your hand or lose power in the hand. Still, with things going at that speed... especially when they grab your head.. it's hard to do anything at all.
Point noted about the marker but do you reakon if we had a dummy marker knife with 4 to 6 inches showing you would have faired better ? So many variables if it was real life. I must say I thought you did the best in shank Tank. Ps loved the crucifix you put me in and great hip throw leading into it. Wish you were coming back for season 2 you are a legend And have alot of respect for you man Much love Alex
Yo what’s up Alex! Yea so the marker debate is hard, I do think it’s accurate for what we were trying to get done. I also think the marker edged blade would be a cool option but I’ve never tried one before. Can’t wait to see what you come up with for season 2!
@@senseisethreacts congrats on getting married also man, i wish you happy and fruitful marriage. Yeah season 2 is going to be something else with a few things we got lined up for it. I hope to see you again sometime soon weather it be in America, Aus or somewhere else. God bless my Friend
Yup So many things which are artificially stacked against the defenders. To takes one example - what's the point in having simulated barriers in the environment if the attacker is not even going to pretend that they are not soft light objects which are not attached to the ground.
In a lot of the challenges where Sensei Seth doesn’t do perfect, he does really well; like here, where the standing armbar but then pushing instead of pulling, or doing a really effective sidekick, and then doing a headbutt. I feel like, if given a second chance, especially after these analyses, he could potentially get full points. EDIT: if the the attacker wasn’t wearing a helmet, I think the headbutt could have been knocked out, at least enough to be stopped.
That is the point. These guys are martial artists, know that there is a difference between self defense and fighting, but they don't train like that very often.
They sell collapsible toy/prop knives that are on a spring. If you put different colors of paint on each section, you can see how "deep" it would have gone. You need a slightly stiffer spring than what they come with but it is possible
It's a hard problem to solve for sure, but I think the problem is mostly a competition problem rather than a training problem. In training you and your partner can judge for yourselves based on the force of the stabs and size and stiffness of the trainer. You can also vary it up what kind of training knife you use; rubber or foam has it's place, but drilling disarms should probably be done with something stiffer, like plastic or wood, and if you do HEMA style training there are flexible, springy steel trainers that can be used in sparring with the right protective gear. Not to mention tazer knife training. That certainly adds a stressful element to knife training that rubber knives don't have.
I loved the whole USDC and I have been thoroughly enjoying your commentarty on it, but I had some problems with this challenge. Imho its way too stacked against the defender. TLDR: I don't think this was a fair challenge nor a realistic self defense scenario in many ways. Full comment: 1- You guys were locked in a room from where you couldn't escape, the room was completely empty, there was nothing that you could put in between yourselves and the attacker (that big cilinder they put in some rounds does not count, it's not fixated to the ground, and it's a padded, super light, hard to grab or wield piece of nothing that could get knocked over stupidly easy and gave some of you, namely Rokas, a false sense of security), there also wasn't nothing to arm yourselves with, not even clothing to wrap around your arm or anything. 2- Like you pointed out, the markers are so tiny you can't really try to leverage them out of the attacker's hand. Having that tiny a blade you can still kill someone of course but they scored stabs by the slightest stratch that drew a mark as if it were a deep enough injury. Such a small blade might not cut as easily through some thick clothing or tougher materials like leather. There also was the hand switching thing you mentioned. 3- The attackers were all big men of at least 90 kilos, who also knew how to grapple and fight in general. The smallest of them weren't even that much smaller than you yourself Seth, being the heaviest competitor. 4- I think this was the most aggravating point: The attackers had no losing condition, they could gleefully charge in and slice up/shank the defenders without any concern for the defenders' safety (they won't beat you up by poking you with a marker), but you guys weren't able to go full force with your striking for safety reasons. None of the successful striking counted in any way. They should have, especially those landed before the attacker could get close enough to really do damage with the knife. Every attacker just assumed they could ate any hit coming their way with no real consequence or impairing to their fighting ability. Still, I'm NOT saying that if any or even all of the conditions above weren't true the contenders would have had a good chance of winning. With a knife involved, a single mistake is enough for a lethal wound to happen. So, the point of my argument is that the context they set up for this challenge was more an execution than a challenge or a self defense scenario. Even if you can leverage any advantage mentioned above in your favor, there's a good chance many of the fights would have been a close call and I'm sure there still would be a sizable ammount of losses. I find it hard to imagine any kind of realistic scenario where this set up would happen, without any other people around that may want to help the defender, without any kind of object to try to defend yourself with or without any striking causing the smallest deterrence or damage on the attacker. ¿Why would they set up a scenario like this? Certainly not to give the participants a good chance of winning. I think they took the chance to try and make it as a wake up call for everyone who thinks a handfull of knife defense techniques would easily save your life. And they succeeded at that because they knew the USDC had a good chance of going viral in the whole martial arts community. Even HEMA channels like Skallagrim made videos about it. I hope they don't repeat this set up in season 2.
I think it would have helped if they showed exactly where you were stabbed during that fight and the consequences of the injuries. Otherwise, it's really hard to tell how the fight would have ended.
disarm with strikes "defang the snake" or "attack the weapon": I've done this in Combatives successfully, (I disarmed 1 knife IRL but it doesn't count as the guy was drunk, I was sober, and a basic Karate/Hapkido disarm worked a charm). your target is that juicy inner forearm, where all the tendons run. striking this area (I like a snappy crescent or roundhouse kick) mechanically overrides the grip (assuming they're not crazy strong in the grip department). I've done this in Hard Combatives Training in the service, and had it done to me in an Escrima session. if someone has a knife, grappling is a last resort, and if you must do so, you need to be explosive, violent, and decisive to have even a small chance. Instead, I suggest keeping your distance and trying to tag the weapon wrist. also, throwing the round pad at their feet as they charged would have likely given you an opportunity to react more effectively, or pushing it hard into their face/chest region to set up another maneuver: something else we trained in Combatives. Video Idea: Try a Combatives session with USMC!
Really great analysis! It got me thinking that the thing to do once you have the knife hand is to just focus on improving that position. Control their posture, get the forearm locked down, then maybe even the shoulder. At that point, you have a lot of terrible options to inflict on the attacker.
Honestly, while I see the complaints about using a marker instead of something closer to a knife, I think it's close enough that the difference is negligible. Also I think it shows how important it is to not just control the knife hand, but the off hand as well. Since, while I have little to no training, I always spar/play fight with my cousins, with toy knives and stuff like that which actually are about similar shape and size to your typical pocket knife or maybe a bit bigger, and obviously being kids, you don't really hold back when you're being competitive with each other. 90% of the time, if someone has the knife, and someone gets hyper-fixated on trying to take the knife or pin the knife, it's next to no energy or resistance to simply swap hands and reverse the attack, which is a bulk of why these rounds are so brutal to watch. Which is best shown in the confusion even in watching the tape in hindsight, when you can't get a clear question to "Which hand is the knife in?-" Another factor you have to consider is that it doesn't take that many wounds for a stabbing to be fatal, and a wound doesn't need to be fatal to stop a fight. When you're getting into these rushed scrambled knife fights, where there's chaos, and you can't control the situation, I almost feel like this test was almost TOO forgiving. Most people aren't going to get stabbed or even get non-fatally cut 40+ times or even 10+ times, and keep on fighting. Even a non-fatal wound is causing blood loss, dropping blood pressure makes everything you're doing weaker and slower than normal, you get muscles and tendons sliced up and potentially lose function in limbs all together, the reality is that yes: You're probably gonna get stabbed, but that's not excuse FOR getting stabbed. Even a minor wound can be game changing, and that's the case even with something like "severe" cuts or bruises in boxing or MMA, except with knives it's different, because even the most minor knife wound is gonna be worse on average than the most damage that someone can do with punches or kicks. I literally remember watching these fights where guys are getting marked up and I'm like "Why isn't there anyone to call this off already, and we got 3 more rounds of this?-" It's important to remember when practicing for life or death scenarios: There's no situation more unforgiving, so sparring and practicing must be equally unforgiving to be practical.
The markers... I think I said this in either the main video or someone else's reaction. The marker is just not the best proxy. At the same time, how do you proxy a knife that can mark, but is safe enough for this type of all in testing?
One of the good things was that they had a combination of footage and that the attackers used stabbing motions for dots so you can see where the attacker had free range motion to stab.
...What I commented by others concerning this event too: as both attackers as well as defenders did wear protective gear, though this was a fun competition, I’m not sure if it could be accepted as a realistic knife fight simulation, as hits and kicks did not have nor the distractive, nor the destructive effects they normally would have; not to mention the problem of the market vs knife You refer to as well. Maybe it can be considered as a simulation of a maniac attack...🤔
There is a serious flaw in the logic of this "test." The "touch" of the marker is seen as a significant attack but the counters are "ineffective" because they are wearing gear. In effect, this is then not a "knife defense" test but rather a "can you control a hand" test.
Holy crap a side kick worked... Also I think I agree with Steven here, if you cannot get away from the guy with the knife a full on just hard punch might be the answer.
The original series was great to watch, no doubt. But I thought the point system was a little off. The spread between and within the challenges was off and didn't really help inform which strategies were better. I get that if you die in real life that's 0 points. But it's not like this is an exact science and it'd be more informative to see what was closer to working than not
Yeah, I felt like as a competition, it would make sense to have kind of a ranking system, rather than a setup where literally everyone earns zero points. I think Mike even came within a couple meters of the tree in the escape scenario, but still got nothing. Yes, dead is dead, but at the same time, he still did objectively better than everyone else. I think the knife challenge should have been done similarly (with bonus points being earned in the case you actually managed to avoid a fatal stabbing at all).
Yeah not the biggest fan of the market thing because a lot of the stabs wouldn’t have had the force to go through clothing or through the muscle. Now way to simulate that so I get it
Next time use a paint knife .the marker is so short the attacker doesnt have to actually pull their arm back to peave a mark since their weapon is less than an inch long. Relaistically alot of those stabs woukdve been minor flesh wounds at best if not just scratches.
So so so much to learn. Im glad now because as a young man, boxer and judo player I put myself in crazy positions that I felt i was equal to and so I dont think I would have runnfrom a knife attacker and that seems crazy now. That said, later in life as someone who worked a decade in homelessness, whonhas had knives pointed at them 3 times, it does have to be saod that your average knife wielder is not a burly martial artist and a lot of good practice techniques would probably work. The guys who held knives at me were a 5ft 8 dealer, a woman out of her mind and a small sixty year old man with a brain injury (who had one killed someone). Given these three i don't think the competitors in this challenge would have had the same issue!
This was my least favorite part of the competition. It seemed less like a competition and more like the organizer setting out to prove that the competitors couldn’t succeed. I think if the scoring was different it could have mitigated that. For instance count the total wounds and award points for who received the least wounds and fatal wounds.
I agree. Like I just posted above, I understand educating people on the fact that dead is dead, but at the same time, this is supposed to be a competition with someone coming out as the winner earning a trophy. Setting up a challenge where getting stabbed 3 times or 300 is basically the same, meaning it is basically impossible to win, is not a very satisfying test from a competition standpoint.
They make knife trainers that light up and make a noise when pressure is put on the point or blade. Like 50 bucks. I'm surprised they used markers. Yes there are marks on a shirt, but they have no edge. Or training knives with the felt on the edge for chalk or something else to leave marks. Better options than markers. They could have done better without spending a ton. Probably would have cost less than the shirts
Luckily we don't have poison ivy in Malaysia.... I think. But dude that is gnarly. Reminds me of my heat rash. Itchy and painful like needles pricking the skin.. Also the song Poison Ivy = Calamine Lotion
if you're going to charge, you gotta use BOTH your hands to address the weapon hand as you shoulder-ram the foe. try to grab the elbow area (if you can get the forearm it's boss). then it's about throwing your weight, and you foes, around to try to take full control. it will look NOTHING like an MMA rush. Again, Combatives man!
I learned a valuable lesson: Don't get locked in a tiny room with an invincible attacker who's entire goal in life is to kill you with the tiniest knife ever that also manages to penetrate to a lethal level after fighting off multiple attackers an hour earlier. In all seriousness, I enjoyed your commentary on it.
Heres the thing people will often win fights even if theyve been fatally wounded. So like 13:19 happens all the time. So youd die (maybe) but youd win. And you could argue that some of those kicks like when Mike hit the attackers face on the wall or Jeffs kick or Seths throws could easily deter an attacker from continueinv. Jeffs shots were perfect too.
I don’t like the marker thing either, I feel like it’s not the best indicator of depth and marking a shirt is a lot different than stabbing into a human
tbh i feel like this would be fun to try since here i am sitting in a chair thinking i would do really good at this but ik if i were to actually do it i would be horrible. i also think scoring wise for these it shouldn't be scored by if you get stabbed in a vital area but who did the best defense.
The knife defense challenge made me feel sick. So now I always wear chainmail, and I'm drilling calf kicks. I mean, if people who teach knife defense tried this exercise everyday for a year they would come up with something worthy of an Olympic sport.
Were you allowed to knock them out? If you guys were holding back at all id imagine it would go in their favour. If it were real i can imagine youd go dor the KO quicker
I'm genuinely curious if any of yall asked, "What is allowed?" "Power level mat chat". Did you guys do anything like that? Because that would explain some of the thought processes we got to see
Great video thank you always! I totally agree with the concept of hurting the hand/forearm of the attacker. I work on drills with similar simulations and there are more chances of defending from knife this way. You will get cut, were and how many times are the parameters to evaluate. Keep up the good work👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼💪💪💪💪🥋🤗
When it comes to theorycrafting about these things, I tend to look at the news for examples of what actually happened irl. Recently, we got the Apple River stabbing. An older man poked a kid in the ribs once with a small knife. There was no warning and the kid probably hadn't even noticed the knife before getting poked, and that single poke was enough. Guy in Brisbane got poked in the neck once, right as he approached a man with scissors and that was that. Down in 15 seconds, never to get up again. I really wonder if you can train for these scenarios. The damage from a non-lethal stab can be disabling, leading to further, lethal stabs. It's also hard to imagine the psychological effect the stab would have on you, and how that would affect your odds of getting out alive. Overall, unless you're a soldier, bouncer, etc. or live in a terrible place, I don't think it's worthwhile to spend years and years of your life training for that scenario. Live life instead. Eat well and be active, because you're way more likely to die from a heart attack than from a stabbing.
Having had the misfortune to end up in a knife fight without a knife, I'm about eye pokes and throat strikes, groin strikes, arm breaks, head butts, knee and foot stamps, ripping his ears off, that kind of thing ALLLLLLLL day. Nothing else matters, the rest is ritual unliving. And the fantasy that there's one guy... gimme a break. Fact is you can't really rehearse this kind of stuff but any training is good as long as it isn't delusional and the stakes and realities of life are always made known.
If you ever get poison ivy again don't ever scratch it! When you scratch it it breaks it open and spreads. Then anywhere you touch you'll spread it more. Calamine lotion is your best friend. Just some fyi I also am allergic to poison ivy. Ended up in the hospital once because of it. 😭
Honestly in a knife fight, eye gouge, throat punch. Trap the hand and blind the aggressor and collapse the wind pipe, fight as dirty as possible to survive.
Grab anything in the environment that you can use as a weapon. A stick can hit the knife out of their hand, a chair can become a shield, or a beer stein can smash their head in. In medieval art of brawls, no one is ever seen punching each other when they could instead grab a rock or vase and use that to hit someone. It's a mentality that not a lot of people train for, because there isn't a curriculum of techniques in any martial art I know of for hitting someone with a dinner plate.
@@formlessone8246 Don't try to hit the knife out of the hand, instead, if you go for the hand, use something really heavy and hard, like a rod or a pipe (Even a solid stick might do, but unlikely to work well), and go for the arm bone or the wrist. A broken wrist is not so good at stabbing.
... you didn't fight medieval knights. On one hand, bc you ... can't anymore ;-), and many of the modern variants are very sportified. I would love to see you check out some Harnischfechten though. That would be awesome. I'd be very interested what you have to say about the wrestling part.
Kind of a crappy situation to be attacked by 6'+ armored rugby player armed with a 0 length knife that can reach your vital organs who knows you will not perform seriously damaging joint attacks. You guys had no options to stop attack cold and your attacker had a weapon that could not hurt them and is assumed to always do maximum damage to you. This was tough to watch initially, it was fair given everyone had the same situation but the sitution was pretty deeply unfair for all of you. But I guess getting getting jumped in a cramped space by huge athletic armored and armed attackers that you know and like and do not want to permanently harm is going to suck.
Yeah. The only way to survive is to immobilise the knife for a moment and then completely brutalise the other person, which as long as they have the knife is probably going to be self defence. I don't think it is a shock that Rokas, one of the biggest guys there, did the best. It would be interesting to see how it may change if the attacker was smaller than the guys.
You can win the fight (disable the attacker)...and bleeding die two minutes later from wounds...so it doesn't matter if your performance was better than others if you get stabbed multiple times.
I know that I would've likely gotten stabbed at least a dozen times---that said, I would've started similar to you by isolating the knife, but used my free arm to grab him and toss him over. I've done it in fights and it works when timed right. Like I said, I would've gotten stabbed a bunch, but seeing people's expression when they go flying can definitely be worth it.
I wish I had seen this sooner. Orange Hand Cleaner. Put it on the poison ivy directly make sure to rub it in well and wipe it off with a paper towel and throw it away.. repeat. The Urushiol is an oil. A degreaser an oil is going to work. It's not instant and it takes work but..if you have had poison ivy...You have nothing else to do really.
I honestly think that (jeff was the judge I think?) really underestimates the ability for a human to survive, especially if you reach a hospital. Although I suppose if you're in a locked room slowly bleeding to death it might be hard to get to hospital.
brrroooooo that poison ivy rash is gnarly lol
I blame Mr. Miagi.
After watching this in the USDC my thought was that the knife wielders had an extra, perhaps "unrealistic" advantage due to the fact that everyone was pulling their punches/kicks on top of all the body armor. The lack of actual damage dealt and need for the knife wielders to protect themselves more seems to be a pretty significant factor in the outcome. Jeff Phillips (co-organizer of the USDC) also said later referring to this event that he wanted to see the contestants hit the guys harder for this very reason. It's a bit validating to see Wonder Boy say something similar here as well about just going for a knockout punch (even if he vastly favors striking to begin with). IMO the outcome would have been noticeably different; even if the guy wielding the deadly force of the knife is always going to be in the better position, you can't discount the fact that being hit squarely, full force by a strong and skilled martial artist is also deadly, most especially if the knife wielder is not as big/strong or doesn't have fighting experience (in this case the attackers WERE big and strong and athletic though also didn't have much fighting experience).
they are not untrained though. attackers I mean.
I think you're totally correct - it's also why all of the, "sport," martial arts are incapable of fully replicating a fight to the death.
If someone actually attacked any of these competitors with a knife, I don't think they would have been stabbed that many times, even if the attacker was also a martial artist. They definitely would have been landing much harder blows more capable of altering/interrupting the attacker's movements. They would have been even more adrenaline-flooded + more willing & able to stretch beyond their physical limitations.
Most importantly, there are no rules when you're fighting for your life.
All the stuff that's banned in nearly every combat sport is exactly the stuff that you need when you're trying to survive, and that's especially true when you're at an obvious disadvantage, e.g. the attacker has a knife & you don't.
The obvious ones are the things that have been deemed too dangerous for combat sport, e.g. intentional limb breaks, curbing the knife arm, pressing on/striking the windpipe or temples, intentional injuries to the genitals, etc. I'd add that all of the tools that are usually lumped into the, "women's self-defense," arsenal are not just allowed but useful. Biting, scratching, hair pulling, clawing, scratching & striking the eyes - there's no such thing as respectability in the face of someone who intends to kill you.
No, the hands will just rabidly stab at you, I don't know how Wesley Vance got both the knife and then the pair of scissors when Kyle Neil tried to kill him, but Wesley who was 1 3rd the mass of Neil , basically did what happened in this video , and it took over 200 before Neil died. "I knew he was trying kill me, I just kept stabbing until he went weak and died"
Your video with Icy Mike and Ramsey Dewey on obscure MMA rules, and Matt Clinton's entire run on this show
really makes me appreciate how useful swearing at your opponent is for getting in a fighting mindset
This is where Seth proved that sidekicks work against knives. Same with Mike kicking knives off lol
Icy Mike kicking the knife out of his attacker's hand is one of my favorite moments from the whole USDC competition. Oh, and our boy Sensei Seth getting the silver medal!
Seth: *starts scratching*
Me: *spraying monitor with a spray bottle* "No, bad Seth, bad!"
To be fair I now have a very clean monitor.
eczema?
Man, it took FOREVER to set aside 23 minutes to watch this video, but I'm glad I finally got around to it. Loving all of your breakdowns of the Ultimate Self Defense Challenge events! And yeah, as someone who is horrifically allergic to poison oak . . . you have my sympathy, good sir.
A lot of the safety measures made it difficult for the defender to win these rounds. Limited vision, shorter weapon that doesnt get stuck ever, reduced effect of strikes from all the padding, etc. I expect everyone would have done better against a real knife but would also have gone to the hospital
😅
@@anoman75 better as in higher odds of getting a winning round. They also would have actually died on the 80% they lost
I had a little bit of a debate with the Aussie (I forget his name) that designed the tests over on Rokus' page. I think the knife test left a lot to be desired.
1) A knife isn't a lightsaber. It doesn't instantly cut on contact. You have to apply force in the right direction -- especialy when you're talking about cutting through denim, leather, or other clothes of decent weight. A better simulator than the pen is to use a rubber knife with non-smear lipstick on the cutting edges.The you get a much truer read on whether a cut/stab was truly wounding.
2) I thought the scoring undervalued some of the strikes that happened before the knife damaged occurred -- like your big sidekick and I think Matt had a lead left hook at the merge that was a potential fight-ender.
3) No one switches hands in a real fight. Thats something people do when they know its a game.
4) The gloves were a huge impediment -- they make it harder to trap the knife and harder to score a one-shot knockout.
I agree with Wonderboy -- you basically have three valid (but not great) options. A) Strike the knife arm (defang). B) Secure the knife arm/wrist/hand, takedown, and head strike. or C) Try to score a knockout with a big single strike at the merge. The rules and safety gear were tilted against all three of these.
I thought you did a pretty good job and you got cheesed (to a certain degree) by the scoring system -- which in turn cost you the entire competition.
I agree on so many level. I hardly doubt anyone will change the knife hand in combat. The attacker will would cut himself as well. Plus all the gear which reduced impact. Still a tough test but so many point are not realistic
''No one switches hands in a real fight. Thats something people do when they know its a game.'' wait what? of course they would, ı sure as hell would like who wouldn't try to get their weapon into a more operable position?
@@noobguy9973 There's logic and then there's real world observation. While it may make sense logically to switch your knife to the other hand, it is very very rare to see that in real knife fights (as recorded on security vide, in police reports, etc.). Nearly everybody instinctively just clamps down harder when someone tries to take their knife.
@@gw1357 huh ... Guess we get to be the first ones then :D
Of all the challenges, this is the one I had the most issues with when watching initially. Like, yeah, there are accounts of people getting stabbed between upwards of 50 or more times in a knife attack, but in general there are so many variable in this exercise that make it a bad model for a knife attack. But like you said, from a pure competition stand point at least the rules were consistent for all the participants.
If anything it's great to show that some mcdojos with their silly knife defense routines are really underselling it.
Worst thing is a student could get seriously injured because they believe they can disarm a knife attacker.
@@Veckler Yeah, that I can definitely give it. Without a doubt.
@@Vecklera proplem in this Challenge is, that you can't knock Out the knife attacker. I feel Like your only Chance to win against a knife is to ko the Person before they can seriously hurt you. But you propably have to get really lucky for that to Work
The challenge has its own weaknesses in potraying a real knife fight. Nevertheless, even with such limitations, it shows that Knife fighting is not a joke and very dangerous. In reality, even a slash to the skin is enough to deter the defender and cause fear, let alone a single stab. You either die or suffer major injuries after each fight.
I think my biggest problem with knife defense as a sort of genre of self-defense is that there's a lot of people who will spend time showing how x or y mcdojo technique doesn't work reliably enough to be effective. that's fair enough, but that's also like, 10% of the work you need to do. it's really easy for people for people to identify when something is wrong, but not why it's wrong or how it's wrong. most of the time, when they tell you how or why, they're full of shit. I see this exercise as kind of similar to that. self-defense schools kind of just accept that since there's no way to prevent a random knife attacker from stabbing you in the back in a large crowd, knife defense, generally, is impossible, and the best strategy is to be a paranoid freak that avoids large crowds and events and isolates themselves and stockpiles guns. shoot first, prevent a theoretical threat, ask questions later. strangle a homeless man to death on the NYC metro because he's "acting threatening". The point of this drill isn't to figure out where near-miss scenarios are, i.e. the scenarios where you learn the most, the point of this drill is just to throw people in the deep end to flounder and then say from that, that knife defense is impossible. this is kind of the same thing as if you put someone in a 40 yard open field quickdraw without a gun and then said guns are the most optimal weapon when they get shot. of course that's the case. teaches us nothing. not even quite as good as the mythbusters test to see if you can dodge bullets.
so idk, obviously kind of frustrated by this portion of this event a little bit, and the event in general, not gonna lie.
"Spinal!" Love the Mike Tyson reference 😅
What I find cool about this is that it seems like wrestling stuff akin to defense against a dagger in HEMA seems to work to some regard, I wonder how that kind of training would hold up to a test like this.
When we did dagger sparring we used to take rubber daggers/knives, and put lipstick on them, and then wear a white shirt, maybe that works more for the knife poking out of your hand further than a marker.
I did several Kali and Eskrima edged weapons seminars that did the lipstick and white tee-shirt thing too. Really gives you perspective on how quickly a knife fight can get super ugly, even against an untrained opponent.
I'm guessing this means side kicks don't work on poison ivy.
Poison Ivy advice: Get cheap alcohol, put in freezer (booze will not freeze), once cold take out and pour over infected skin. It sounds crazy but it takes the itch/pain away
This was less a knife defense challenge and more "could you survive 80 seconds of prison shanking in a larger than average closet?" and the answer is, unsurprisingly, no. You couldn't run/escape, you couldn't make distance, and the knife wasn't a knife. It was a tiny shank. You can't lay out the opponent because they're a partner, not an enemy. There was only one way this exercise could end, and that's in failure. My issue here is that some people are going to have the take away that all/any attempts to deal with a person with a knife will end in death, so why bother learning/trying any of it?
You're also right about the 'blade' it's harder in one way to control the hand when it's just the fist rather than something with a hilt you can try and disarm. I suspect the test is designed to make you realise you WILL get effed up with a knife
Also, another issue I remember Theign Thrand bringing up with markers once upon a time is that the marker needs no force to leave a mark on the shirt, but real cuts and stabs need at least some force behind them to cause real injury. This is more of a problem with simulated cuts than stabs, but knives are still just force multipliers, not magic lightsabers.
@@formlessone8246 I dunno, a razor sharp knife really doesn't take much force at all. I was using an excessively sharpened machete in the backyard and was pushing some chopped weeds out of the way with the blade and just barely touched my knee with it. next thing i know I feel wet stuff running down my leg. Had a gash to tend to.
i wonder if one of those fake collapsing knives with some kind of sensor in it could do a better representation. I guess in the end there's nothing quite like the real thing.
@@litpath3633 well, firstly, on boney parts of the body like the knee or scalp the skin breaks and cuts more easily because it has nowhere to go. That's why you see so many scalp cuts in bare knuckle boxing, or why kids easily scrape their knees doing all the running around and tripping on stuff that they do. However, the bones also provide their own protection in those cases. Second, if you even throw a T-shirt over your body, it greatly increases the difficulty in cutting through unless the knife is truly razor sharp. The thicker the clothing, the harder time the blade will have, because the cloth will bunch up. Nylon windbreakers are especially tough to cut relative to their thickness. This is an aspect of the knife that I don't hear many self defense guys talk about because it seems like most of them are learning knife techniques from FMA, and forget how the climate of the Philippines may effect their martial arts. It's mostly HEMA people I see talk about the interaction between blades and clothes, although the thing about nylon windbreakers did come from a SD guy. I think the fact that they wear thicker stuff in Europe has a lot to do with it. Here in the US it's going to depend on time of year and the state you live in, whereas a stab will probably go through even a thick coat. All the coat will do is limit the penetration. But markers also suck at representing a blade long enough to penetrate that.
@@formlessone8246 I was wearing pretty thick blue jeans. I learned why you dont want a razor sharp machete lol
The switching hands was also kind of messed up lol. There's no fear of getting their offhand getting cut to ribbons when they can't see it directly
This is hands down, the best side kick related video you've ever done Seth 😂 That launch sequence 👏.. 😆
I remember watching that episode and thinking the body lock is so counterintuitive. I think the best strategy in that situation is to fight on the Blackfoot and circle on the wall landing kicks/counter shots and hope you can lead yourself to the door and run out. Not saying it would work but it makes more sense than closing the distance with the threat.
Yeah, Seth, I'm pretty sure if there was no headgear and you weren't being nice, that sidekick to headbutt-on-jaw combo would definitely have ended that encounter lol.
I think you're absolutely right about letting him get to the wall at 5:03 - of the three aspects of "connection", one is connection with the environment. If you're free-floating in space, you can't generate force very well. It's the same with sweeps, throws, punches, kicks, etc.; disconnect your opponent from the environment, you have control of them.
Great video, Seth! Hope you stop itching soon.
hey Seth, thank you for the videos! you've taught me a lot and have started me on my martial arts journey. thanks a lot! also I hope that your arm will get better.
You need some sort of spring covering the tip of the marker so that it has to get pressed in enough to count. Half those wounds would be paper cuts irl
Aggressive mindset is one of the things that Krav Maga does right. I had a Krav Maga training from the lead bodyguard of the Danish royal family once (really nice guy) and he could be so loud and aggressive that just the idea of fighting him scared me. Amok is a knife fighting system (by Tom Sotis I think) and they use a lot of forearm strikes to the knife hand when blocking to (hopefully) let them drop the knife due to pain and injury to the muscles and flexor tendons of the forearm. Getting a good hard strike into the forearm can make you open your hand or lose power in the hand.
Still, with things going at that speed... especially when they grab your head.. it's hard to do anything at all.
Point noted about the marker but do you reakon if we had a dummy marker knife with 4 to 6 inches showing you would have faired better ? So many variables if it was real life.
I must say I thought you did the best in shank Tank.
Ps loved the crucifix you put me in and great hip throw leading into it.
Wish you were coming back for season 2 you are a legend And have alot of respect for you man
Much love Alex
Yo what’s up Alex! Yea so the marker debate is hard, I do think it’s accurate for what we were trying to get done. I also think the marker edged blade would be a cool option but I’ve never tried one before. Can’t wait to see what you come up with for season 2!
@@senseisethreacts congrats on getting married also man, i wish you happy and fruitful marriage.
Yeah season 2 is going to be something else with a few things we got lined up for it.
I hope to see you again sometime soon weather it be in America, Aus or somewhere else. God bless my Friend
As someone who's defended against knives for real on 3 occaisions without 1 stitch needed ... This test is harder than real life. WAY harder.
Yup
So many things which are artificially stacked against the defenders.
To takes one example - what's the point in having simulated barriers in the environment if the attacker is not even going to pretend that they are not soft light objects which are not attached to the ground.
In a lot of the challenges where Sensei Seth doesn’t do perfect, he does really well; like here, where the standing armbar but then pushing instead of pulling, or doing a really effective sidekick, and then doing a headbutt.
I feel like, if given a second chance, especially after these analyses, he could potentially get full points.
EDIT: if the the attacker wasn’t wearing a helmet, I think the headbutt could have been knocked out, at least enough to be stopped.
That is the point. These guys are martial artists, know that there is a difference between self defense and fighting, but they don't train like that very often.
"There was nothing hypothetical happening that time!" HAHAHAHA!! 😂
The marker also doesn't tell you how deep the wounds are, but that's not really possible to simulate
Have a magic knife that folds into itself and the marker gets bigger the more you pushed it in?
They sell collapsible toy/prop knives that are on a spring. If you put different colors of paint on each section, you can see how "deep" it would have gone. You need a slightly stiffer spring than what they come with but it is possible
It's a hard problem to solve for sure, but I think the problem is mostly a competition problem rather than a training problem. In training you and your partner can judge for yourselves based on the force of the stabs and size and stiffness of the trainer. You can also vary it up what kind of training knife you use; rubber or foam has it's place, but drilling disarms should probably be done with something stiffer, like plastic or wood, and if you do HEMA style training there are flexible, springy steel trainers that can be used in sparring with the right protective gear. Not to mention tazer knife training. That certainly adds a stressful element to knife training that rubber knives don't have.
I loved the whole USDC and I have been thoroughly enjoying your commentarty on it, but I had some problems with this challenge.
Imho its way too stacked against the defender.
TLDR: I don't think this was a fair challenge nor a realistic self defense scenario in many ways.
Full comment:
1- You guys were locked in a room from where you couldn't escape, the room was completely empty, there was nothing that you could put in between yourselves and the attacker (that big cilinder they put in some rounds does not count, it's not fixated to the ground, and it's a padded, super light, hard to grab or wield piece of nothing that could get knocked over stupidly easy and gave some of you, namely Rokas, a false sense of security), there also wasn't nothing to arm yourselves with, not even clothing to wrap around your arm or anything.
2- Like you pointed out, the markers are so tiny you can't really try to leverage them out of the attacker's hand. Having that tiny a blade you can still kill someone of course but they scored stabs by the slightest stratch that drew a mark as if it were a deep enough injury. Such a small blade might not cut as easily through some thick clothing or tougher materials like leather. There also was the hand switching thing you mentioned.
3- The attackers were all big men of at least 90 kilos, who also knew how to grapple and fight in general. The smallest of them weren't even that much smaller than you yourself Seth, being the heaviest competitor.
4- I think this was the most aggravating point: The attackers had no losing condition, they could gleefully charge in and slice up/shank the defenders without any concern for the defenders' safety (they won't beat you up by poking you with a marker), but you guys weren't able to go full force with your striking for safety reasons. None of the successful striking counted in any way. They should have, especially those landed before the attacker could get close enough to really do damage with the knife. Every attacker just assumed they could ate any hit coming their way with no real consequence or impairing to their fighting ability.
Still, I'm NOT saying that if any or even all of the conditions above weren't true the contenders would have had a good chance of winning. With a knife involved, a single mistake is enough for a lethal wound to happen.
So, the point of my argument is that the context they set up for this challenge was more an execution than a challenge or a self defense scenario. Even if you can leverage any advantage mentioned above in your favor, there's a good chance many of the fights would have been a close call and I'm sure there still would be a sizable ammount of losses.
I find it hard to imagine any kind of realistic scenario where this set up would happen, without any other people around that may want to help the defender, without any kind of object to try to defend yourself with or without any striking causing the smallest deterrence or damage on the attacker.
¿Why would they set up a scenario like this? Certainly not to give the participants a good chance of winning.
I think they took the chance to try and make it as a wake up call for everyone who thinks a handfull of knife defense techniques would easily save your life. And they succeeded at that because they knew the USDC had a good chance of going viral in the whole martial arts community. Even HEMA channels like Skallagrim made videos about it.
I hope they don't repeat this set up in season 2.
I think it would have helped if they showed exactly where you were stabbed during that fight and the consequences of the injuries. Otherwise, it's really hard to tell how the fight would have ended.
disarm with strikes "defang the snake" or "attack the weapon": I've done this in Combatives successfully, (I disarmed 1 knife IRL but it doesn't count as the guy was drunk, I was sober, and a basic Karate/Hapkido disarm worked a charm). your target is that juicy inner forearm, where all the tendons run. striking this area (I like a snappy crescent or roundhouse kick) mechanically overrides the grip (assuming they're not crazy strong in the grip department).
I've done this in Hard Combatives Training in the service, and had it done to me in an Escrima session.
if someone has a knife, grappling is a last resort, and if you must do so, you need to be explosive, violent, and decisive to have even a small chance. Instead, I suggest keeping your distance and trying to tag the weapon wrist.
also, throwing the round pad at their feet as they charged would have likely given you an opportunity to react more effectively, or pushing it hard into their face/chest region to set up another maneuver: something else we trained in Combatives.
Video Idea: Try a Combatives session with USMC!
Really great analysis! It got me thinking that the thing to do once you have the knife hand is to just focus on improving that position. Control their posture, get the forearm locked down, then maybe even the shoulder. At that point, you have a lot of terrible options to inflict on the attacker.
Should add some parody. How to fight, vampires , werewolf , tanks , atomic bombs , wife .
Honestly, while I see the complaints about using a marker instead of something closer to a knife, I think it's close enough that the difference is negligible.
Also I think it shows how important it is to not just control the knife hand, but the off hand as well.
Since, while I have little to no training, I always spar/play fight with my cousins, with toy knives and stuff like that which actually are about similar shape and size to your typical pocket knife or maybe a bit bigger, and obviously being kids, you don't really hold back when you're being competitive with each other.
90% of the time, if someone has the knife, and someone gets hyper-fixated on trying to take the knife or pin the knife, it's next to no energy or resistance to simply swap hands and reverse the attack, which is a bulk of why these rounds are so brutal to watch.
Which is best shown in the confusion even in watching the tape in hindsight, when you can't get a clear question to "Which hand is the knife in?-"
Another factor you have to consider is that it doesn't take that many wounds for a stabbing to be fatal, and a wound doesn't need to be fatal to stop a fight. When you're getting into these rushed scrambled knife fights, where there's chaos, and you can't control the situation, I almost feel like this test was almost TOO forgiving.
Most people aren't going to get stabbed or even get non-fatally cut 40+ times or even 10+ times, and keep on fighting.
Even a non-fatal wound is causing blood loss, dropping blood pressure makes everything you're doing weaker and slower than normal, you get muscles and tendons sliced up and potentially lose function in limbs all together, the reality is that yes: You're probably gonna get stabbed, but that's not excuse FOR getting stabbed. Even a minor wound can be game changing, and that's the case even with something like "severe" cuts or bruises in boxing or MMA, except with knives it's different, because even the most minor knife wound is gonna be worse on average than the most damage that someone can do with punches or kicks.
I literally remember watching these fights where guys are getting marked up and I'm like "Why isn't there anyone to call this off already, and we got 3 more rounds of this?-"
It's important to remember when practicing for life or death scenarios: There's no situation more unforgiving, so sparring and practicing must be equally unforgiving to be practical.
The markers... I think I said this in either the main video or someone else's reaction. The marker is just not the best proxy. At the same time, how do you proxy a knife that can mark, but is safe enough for this type of all in testing?
One of the good things was that they had a combination of footage and that the attackers used stabbing motions for dots so you can see where the attacker had free range motion to stab.
...What I commented by others concerning this event too: as both attackers as well as defenders did wear protective gear, though this was a fun competition, I’m not sure if it could be accepted as a realistic knife fight simulation, as hits and kicks did not have nor the distractive, nor the destructive effects they normally would have; not to mention the problem of the market vs knife You refer to as well. Maybe it can be considered as a simulation of a maniac attack...🤔
There is a serious flaw in the logic of this "test."
The "touch" of the marker is seen as a significant attack but the counters are "ineffective" because they are wearing gear.
In effect, this is then not a "knife defense" test but rather a "can you control a hand" test.
10:22 Mike Tyson reference lol
Side kicking someone across a room. Feels good doesn't it? Attackers obviously. Not just random ppl. Been there & still love it all these years later.
Holy crap a side kick worked... Also I think I agree with Steven here, if you cannot get away from the guy with the knife a full on just hard punch might be the answer.
The original series was great to watch, no doubt. But I thought the point system was a little off. The spread between and within the challenges was off and didn't really help inform which strategies were better.
I get that if you die in real life that's 0 points. But it's not like this is an exact science and it'd be more informative to see what was closer to working than not
Yeah, I felt like as a competition, it would make sense to have kind of a ranking system, rather than a setup where literally everyone earns zero points. I think Mike even came within a couple meters of the tree in the escape scenario, but still got nothing. Yes, dead is dead, but at the same time, he still did objectively better than everyone else. I think the knife challenge should have been done similarly (with bonus points being earned in the case you actually managed to avoid a fatal stabbing at all).
Yeah not the biggest fan of the market thing because a lot of the stabs wouldn’t have had the force to go through clothing or through the muscle. Now way to simulate that so I get it
Self defense against poison ivy in next episode
Aaron switched hands on me that's why I had to let go.
Ah yea then that makes sense
And also, yell for help.
Next time use a paint knife .the marker is so short the attacker doesnt have to actually pull their arm back to peave a mark since their weapon is less than an inch long. Relaistically alot of those stabs woukdve been minor flesh wounds at best if not just scratches.
Just use taser knives next time. You'll know when you get cut 😂
So so so much to learn. Im glad now because as a young man, boxer and judo player I put myself in crazy positions that I felt i was equal to and so I dont think I would have runnfrom a knife attacker and that seems crazy now. That said, later in life as someone who worked a decade in homelessness, whonhas had knives pointed at them 3 times, it does have to be saod that your average knife wielder is not a burly martial artist and a lot of good practice techniques would probably work. The guys who held knives at me were a 5ft 8 dealer, a woman out of her mind and a small sixty year old man with a brain injury (who had one killed someone). Given these three i don't think the competitors in this challenge would have had the same issue!
This was my least favorite part of the competition. It seemed less like a competition and more like the organizer setting out to prove that the competitors couldn’t succeed. I think if the scoring was different it could have mitigated that. For instance count the total wounds and award points for who received the least wounds and fatal wounds.
I agree. Like I just posted above, I understand educating people on the fact that dead is dead, but at the same time, this is supposed to be a competition with someone coming out as the winner earning a trophy. Setting up a challenge where getting stabbed 3 times or 300 is basically the same, meaning it is basically impossible to win, is not a very satisfying test from a competition standpoint.
Trying to stop Seth from scratching at poison ivy patches is as hard as trying to stop from getting stabbed by a knife attacker.
Absolutely DO NOT WRESTLE A DUDE TRYING TO STAB YOU!! Space and distance are your friend.
Great video, train on the hip kick to set up the cross as the head moves forward. Looks cool in my head.
I learned about Defang in Krav Maga, especially if you do it in a swipe motion it can help redirect atlesat enough that you can then run away
Guy with 'knife' should have no protective gear.
They make knife trainers that light up and make a noise when pressure is put on the point or blade. Like 50 bucks. I'm surprised they used markers. Yes there are marks on a shirt, but they have no edge. Or training knives with the felt on the edge for chalk or something else to leave marks. Better options than markers. They could have done better without spending a ton. Probably would have cost less than the shirts
I’ll look into some
I love to see Kevin goat in next series, he is balinwantak expert it deals with single stick and single knife defense
Luckily we don't have poison ivy in Malaysia.... I think. But dude that is gnarly. Reminds me of my heat rash. Itchy and painful like needles pricking the skin..
Also the song Poison Ivy = Calamine Lotion
if you're going to charge, you gotta use BOTH your hands to address the weapon hand as you shoulder-ram the foe. try to grab the elbow area (if you can get the forearm it's boss). then it's about throwing your weight, and you foes, around to try to take full control. it will look NOTHING like an MMA rush. Again, Combatives man!
Love these reaction videos!
Could you do one on all the karate scenes from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia?
I learned a valuable lesson: Don't get locked in a tiny room with an invincible attacker who's entire goal in life is to kill you with the tiniest knife ever that also manages to penetrate to a lethal level after fighting off multiple attackers an hour earlier. In all seriousness, I enjoyed your commentary on it.
It’s about the principle. Too many self defense people overestimate their ability against a knife attacker.
@dylancooper4993 i agree with that 100%, but there's no reason to do all this to show that.
Heres the thing people will often win fights even if theyve been fatally wounded. So like 13:19 happens all the time. So youd die (maybe) but youd win. And you could argue that some of those kicks like when Mike hit the attackers face on the wall or Jeffs kick or Seths throws could easily deter an attacker from continueinv. Jeffs shots were perfect too.
I don’t like the marker thing either, I feel like it’s not the best indicator of depth and marking a shirt is a lot different than stabbing into a human
Better than getting stabbed for sure
tbh i feel like this would be fun to try since here i am sitting in a chair thinking i would do really good at this but ik if i were to actually do it i would be horrible. i also think scoring wise for these it shouldn't be scored by if you get stabbed in a vital area but who did the best defense.
Love the vids Seth!! By far ones of my favorite channels. Also I have poison ivy right now too so I'm with you.
The knife defense challenge made me feel sick. So now I always wear chainmail, and I'm drilling calf kicks.
I mean, if people who teach knife defense tried this exercise everyday for a year they would come up with something worthy of an Olympic sport.
Were you allowed to knock them out? If you guys were holding back at all id imagine it would go in their favour. If it were real i can imagine youd go dor the KO quicker
I'm genuinely curious if any of yall asked, "What is allowed?" "Power level mat chat". Did you guys do anything like that? Because that would explain some of the thought processes we got to see
I was gonna say just keep push kicking the attacker but idk maybe a suplex or maybe osotogari then transition to a scarfhold
C'Mon Rokas! My man totally survived! I CALL SHENNANIGANS!
edit: hindsight is 20/20
i wonder if kicking the tumbling thing at them hard enough would have the same effect as a yoga ball hitting you hard enough
Great video Seth! I don’t know how they were expecting y’all not to get stabbed😂
Great video thank you always! I totally agree with the concept of hurting the hand/forearm of the attacker. I work on drills with similar simulations and there are more chances of defending from knife this way. You will get cut, were and how many times are the parameters to evaluate. Keep up the good work👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼💪💪💪💪🥋🤗
When it comes to theorycrafting about these things, I tend to look at the news for examples of what actually happened irl. Recently, we got the Apple River stabbing. An older man poked a kid in the ribs once with a small knife. There was no warning and the kid probably hadn't even noticed the knife before getting poked, and that single poke was enough. Guy in Brisbane got poked in the neck once, right as he approached a man with scissors and that was that. Down in 15 seconds, never to get up again.
I really wonder if you can train for these scenarios. The damage from a non-lethal stab can be disabling, leading to further, lethal stabs. It's also hard to imagine the psychological effect the stab would have on you, and how that would affect your odds of getting out alive.
Overall, unless you're a soldier, bouncer, etc. or live in a terrible place, I don't think it's worthwhile to spend years and years of your life training for that scenario. Live life instead. Eat well and be active, because you're way more likely to die from a heart attack than from a stabbing.
Did you mean the old metaphor "You took your eye off the ball??"
13:00 Run full pelt and soccer kick his nadsack into his lungs.
Shows, see a knife, run .
Having had the misfortune to end up in a knife fight without a knife, I'm about eye pokes and throat strikes, groin strikes, arm breaks, head butts, knee and foot stamps, ripping his ears off, that kind of thing ALLLLLLLL day. Nothing else matters, the rest is ritual unliving. And the fantasy that there's one guy... gimme a break. Fact is you can't really rehearse this kind of stuff but any training is good as long as it isn't delusional and the stakes and realities of life are always made known.
bro have you tried calamine lotion? I've had head to toe poison oak before, I found calamine to be the most soothing option.
Does the pads on the attacker not limit options or does that matter? Like knockout wise, or punching throat or something?
Find jewel weed to crush and rub on the poison ivy rash sites asap Seth!
I couldnt see the marks the first time I saw this because I was looking for red marks, not blue.
Woah, that's the worst case of poison ivy I have ever seen!
He really is beating this horse. It's been dead bro
Screw knife defense, you need poison ivy defense
If you ever get poison ivy again don't ever scratch it! When you scratch it it breaks it open and spreads. Then anywhere you touch you'll spread it more. Calamine lotion is your best friend. Just some fyi I also am allergic to poison ivy. Ended up in the hospital once because of it. 😭
Yes, forearm nerve!
Honestly in a knife fight, eye gouge, throat punch. Trap the hand and blind the aggressor and collapse the wind pipe, fight as dirty as possible to survive.
Grab anything in the environment that you can use as a weapon. A stick can hit the knife out of their hand, a chair can become a shield, or a beer stein can smash their head in. In medieval art of brawls, no one is ever seen punching each other when they could instead grab a rock or vase and use that to hit someone. It's a mentality that not a lot of people train for, because there isn't a curriculum of techniques in any martial art I know of for hitting someone with a dinner plate.
@@formlessone8246 Don't try to hit the knife out of the hand, instead, if you go for the hand, use something really heavy and hard, like a rod or a pipe (Even a solid stick might do, but unlikely to work well), and go for the arm bone or the wrist. A broken wrist is not so good at stabbing.
... you didn't fight medieval knights. On one hand, bc you ... can't anymore ;-), and many of the modern variants are very sportified. I would love to see you check out some Harnischfechten though. That would be awesome. I'd be very interested what you have to say about the wrestling part.
Aikido doesn't work.... Unless your opponent has a marker.
Kind of a crappy situation to be attacked by 6'+ armored rugby player armed with a 0 length knife that can reach your vital organs who knows you will not perform seriously damaging joint attacks. You guys had no options to stop attack cold and your attacker had a weapon that could not hurt them and is assumed to always do maximum damage to you. This was tough to watch initially, it was fair given everyone had the same situation but the sitution was pretty deeply unfair for all of you. But I guess getting getting jumped in a cramped space by huge athletic armored and armed attackers that you know and like and do not want to permanently harm is going to suck.
Yeah. The only way to survive is to immobilise the knife for a moment and then completely brutalise the other person, which as long as they have the knife is probably going to be self defence.
I don't think it is a shock that Rokas, one of the biggest guys there, did the best. It would be interesting to see how it may change if the attacker was smaller than the guys.
You can win the fight (disable the attacker)...and bleeding die two minutes later from wounds...so it doesn't matter if your performance was better than others if you get stabbed multiple times.
Dude, karate was THE major contender against MMA. Go figure. Ya did well and karate (proper karate) is the best.
I demand a recount on knife wounds!😠
I know that I would've likely gotten stabbed at least a dozen times---that said, I would've started similar to you by isolating the knife, but used my free arm to grab him and toss him over. I've done it in fights and it works when timed right. Like I said, I would've gotten stabbed a bunch, but seeing people's expression when they go flying can definitely be worth it.
*ahem*
STOP SCRATCHING, SETH!
Seth can u make a video on how to get better at pump side kick I can’t cover enough distance
This poison ivy! Dude!
I wish I had seen this sooner. Orange Hand Cleaner. Put it on the poison ivy directly make sure to rub it in well and wipe it off with a paper towel and throw it away.. repeat. The Urushiol is an oil. A degreaser an oil is going to work. It's not instant and it takes work but..if you have had poison ivy...You have nothing else to do really.
I honestly think that (jeff was the judge I think?) really underestimates the ability for a human to survive, especially if you reach a hospital. Although I suppose if you're in a locked room slowly bleeding to death it might be hard to get to hospital.
WB has it right. You have to hit hard and try to knock him out or knock him so hard he drops it make them pay to close the distance