Once you induce vibrations into the pan via crank hitting the tray this will cause welds to crack. Beating the tray isn’t a good idea. The sump spacer is the best way to go around this and you prob wouldn’t of had any issues that way. Not sure how long ago you got that sump but they are all leak tested since nearly 2 years ago. I’m also looking into full cast sumps like the group A ones.
A full cast option that was well designed for rigidity would help stiffen the block, too. That was part of my plan on my non-4AGE build when I went with a maximal coverage 12mm steel "spacer" that doubled as a skirt stiffener and only left just enough room for the crank throw to clear. Then windage tray. Then sump with top plate. Best oil control you could get on a wet sump engine :-)
Hi Danny. I've been building the 4A-GE series of engines for 35 years now, and recently pulled off the typical FB groups as I found them irritating beyond belief. I have to say that I found this video 100% refreshing and your humility and willingness to share your issues is a credit to you. It's such a shame a few minor issues have cost you so much time and effort when you thought you had done everything correctly. With regard to the sump cracking, way back in the eighties when we used to build Group A engines for rallying and racing, we used the official Toyota Sport sump of similar design, although made from sheet metal. They used to crack, crack and crack some more. Welding introduces it's own stresses into the base material, and the sumps continually cracked at the side of the weld. Every rebuild we had to braze up the cracks. It's down to the horrendous harmonics of the 4A-GE. BTW, you have a lovely garage set up!
That's thoroughly interesting and makes sense, I figured it had something to do with vibrations/harmonics but I have nothing to go on other than my own suspicions haha. Thank you very much for the kind words and wisdom! I hope pulling back from Facebook has been refreshing because I know it was for me ✌️
@@DannyZiegler86 Dan, since I agree with Rich about the vibration, harmonics, twisting block issues, etc that hit these engines when driven so hard, I would totally recommend installing the MRP girdle. I use this in my 20v, and I've had no issues in over 3k mi of hard driving, both on and off the track. Even doing long distance trips. I also have the MRP bafflled sump, although the previous iteration, when Moroso manufactured them, rather than in NZ as yours seem to be, and had no issues with them whatsoever. I'd personally recommend fixing the baffled sump to avoid oil starvation during hard cornering and braking, together with the girdle. Just my $0.02. www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/4age-billet-crank-girdle/
@@DannyZiegler86 super awesome video! would love to do a 7age like yours in the future. i did a similar honda engine putting the big stroke crv b series bottom with my civic vtec head. 86’s are tons of fun, love watching the 7age pull video over n over lol
Really good video, I think I'm gonna make one as well on where I fucked up on my sidedraft build. I rushed a lot to get the car back together after it popped the headgasket and I kept driving it. Didn't take care of shit right and it popped again cause I prioritized driving instead of fixing my car properly. Props for going back and doing it right, takes a lot of balls to admit screwing up.
Please keep making more videos! I love seeing your driving videos and it’s super cool cause you seem to be somewhat local to me since, both tracks I’ve been too are spirit peaks and evergreen. Hope to slide with you sometime after both our cars are done!
No oil squirters, they're not particularly necessary when using high quality aftermarket pistons, a lot of engine builders will actually block them off in highly built motors because the bump in oil pressure is more important than any piston cooling effects.
Good on you for owning up to your own mistakes. I can vouch for a few things here. 1. Spacers don't cause leaks, unless you're dumb and paint the sealing surfaces, then the RTV adheres to the paint and the paint lifts off the steel and it leaks. The other time I had a leak was when a rod hammered my 12mm thick steel spacer down about 15mm and left a BIG gap, but there were worse leaks... through the side of the block :-D 2. If you space that down you must also space down the oil pick up tube if you want best high-G-force performance, and that's a real concern as a leak there means air entering your oil system and bearing damage, even if it's just a little bit. That must be done with the utmost care, proper gaskets, and a lapped or machined flat/parallel spacer. 3. Pin hole leaks on sumps are best found with lower viscosity liquids eg gasoline/petrol. That's what I used after welding my wings and top plate on and it found them instantly, flick a match to remove the residue, then clean up and weld the pin holes and retest. 4. Having more capacity helps in many ways, and has saved my engine on the track while pumping "all of the oil" up into the head - there was still ample left to keep the pick up submerged. 5. The spacer thing can be a pain in the arse if you're trying to pull the sump off in the car without removing the engine for whatever reason (eg fix leaks or clean sump out after storage or coolant ingress) aside from that, it's a good thing. Looks like you have a lot of fun with the car, I hope my KP60 gets as much abuse :-)
Thanks for the tips! The sump spacer from MRP actually also spaces down the oil pickup so I shouldn't have any issues there. I'll probably look into fixing the baffled sump and switching to it if I start taking the car to road courses and such, but for now street driving and low speed drifting are my only plans so I'm not worried about using a stock pan.
@@DannyZiegler86 Hmmmm, well, make sure that is sealed properly and doesn't have any stray RTV inside it. I can't remember what seals them on a 4AGE but on my other engine OEM is a gasket and OEM sump is RTV and there are good reasons for that. I imagine it would be really tricky to get that right with one piece unless the sealing mechanism was common or an oring compression was used instead or something.
@@DannyZiegler86 In that case you really need a matching gasket for the sump, too, at least on that side of it, so it torques down evenly and doesn't warp. I'm telling you, that seal is crucial. Ignore that at your peril.
They don't make anything that MRP doesn't, and all the MRP stuff is quality and been proven in their own builds so I trust it. My rods were fine and I don't have the cash to drop on a forged crank so a replacement factory one is fine.
So who knows what mounts to use for a 7a block in a TE72 body? I've been searching for months with no luck. I'm okay with welding and fabrication but i don't think I'm good enough to build my own. Anybody got any ideas? Love the video dude. Lots to learn for my 7age build
Absolutely, I have a crank girdle actually that I was going to use but for some reason there was an issue with my main cap height that caused it to interfere on one edge of the block so I decided to just do cap straps instead and a sump spacer.
Once you induce vibrations into the pan via crank hitting the tray this will cause welds to crack. Beating the tray isn’t a good idea. The sump spacer is the best way to go around this and you prob wouldn’t of had any issues that way.
Not sure how long ago you got that sump but they are all leak tested since nearly 2 years ago. I’m also looking into full cast sumps like the group A ones.
A full cast option that was well designed for rigidity would help stiffen the block, too. That was part of my plan on my non-4AGE build when I went with a maximal coverage 12mm steel "spacer" that doubled as a skirt stiffener and only left just enough room for the crank throw to clear. Then windage tray. Then sump with top plate. Best oil control you could get on a wet sump engine :-)
@@fredio54 o
Hi Danny. I've been building the 4A-GE series of engines for 35 years now, and recently pulled off the typical FB groups as I found them irritating beyond belief. I have to say that I found this video 100% refreshing and your humility and willingness to share your issues is a credit to you. It's such a shame a few minor issues have cost you so much time and effort when you thought you had done everything correctly. With regard to the sump cracking, way back in the eighties when we used to build Group A engines for rallying and racing, we used the official Toyota Sport sump of similar design, although made from sheet metal. They used to crack, crack and crack some more. Welding introduces it's own stresses into the base material, and the sumps continually cracked at the side of the weld. Every rebuild we had to braze up the cracks. It's down to the horrendous harmonics of the 4A-GE. BTW, you have a lovely garage set up!
That's thoroughly interesting and makes sense, I figured it had something to do with vibrations/harmonics but I have nothing to go on other than my own suspicions haha. Thank you very much for the kind words and wisdom! I hope pulling back from Facebook has been refreshing because I know it was for me ✌️
@@DannyZiegler86 Dan, since I agree with Rich about the vibration, harmonics, twisting block issues, etc that hit these engines when driven so hard, I would totally recommend installing the MRP girdle. I use this in my 20v, and I've had no issues in over 3k mi of hard driving, both on and off the track. Even doing long distance trips.
I also have the MRP bafflled sump, although the previous iteration, when Moroso manufactured them, rather than in NZ as yours seem to be, and had no issues with them whatsoever. I'd personally recommend fixing the baffled sump to avoid oil starvation during hard cornering and braking, together with the girdle.
Just my $0.02.
www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/4age-billet-crank-girdle/
the 7age street pulls video was sick, happy to see updates on ur beaut of an 86
Much appreciated!
@@DannyZiegler86 super awesome video! would love to do a 7age like yours in the future. i did a similar honda engine putting the big stroke crv b series bottom with my civic vtec head. 86’s are tons of fun, love watching the 7age pull video over n over lol
Im about to start a 7age build and only my 2nd engine build, thanks for this video i appreciate it.
Glad to see you active on this again, son😀
Good video of explaining what happened without bashing the company you bought the parts from. Can't wait to see it back on the road and running.
Really good video, I think I'm gonna make one as well on where I fucked up on my sidedraft build. I rushed a lot to get the car back together after it popped the headgasket and I kept driving it. Didn't take care of shit right and it popped again cause I prioritized driving instead of fixing my car properly. Props for going back and doing it right, takes a lot of balls to admit screwing up.
Thanks man! Yeah it sucks when something you spent so much time and money on goes south, just trying to make it right!
Man I'm glad I found this video, I'm about to start collecting and buying 7age parts.
Please keep making more videos! I love seeing your driving videos and it’s super cool cause you seem to be somewhat local to me since, both tracks I’ve been too are spirit peaks and evergreen. Hope to slide with you sometime after both our cars are done!
Awesome man! If you ever catch me at an event come up and say hi!
Of course man!
Do you machine place for oil squirters in 7afe block ?
As far as i know 7afe didn't come with oil squirters
No oil squirters, they're not particularly necessary when using high quality aftermarket pistons, a lot of engine builders will actually block them off in highly built motors because the bump in oil pressure is more important than any piston cooling effects.
It happens man. I destroyed my 16v rebuild due to my stupidity, but every failure is a potential learning experience
Thanks for the tips for 7age
Good on you for owning up to your own mistakes. I can vouch for a few things here. 1. Spacers don't cause leaks, unless you're dumb and paint the sealing surfaces, then the RTV adheres to the paint and the paint lifts off the steel and it leaks. The other time I had a leak was when a rod hammered my 12mm thick steel spacer down about 15mm and left a BIG gap, but there were worse leaks... through the side of the block :-D 2. If you space that down you must also space down the oil pick up tube if you want best high-G-force performance, and that's a real concern as a leak there means air entering your oil system and bearing damage, even if it's just a little bit. That must be done with the utmost care, proper gaskets, and a lapped or machined flat/parallel spacer. 3. Pin hole leaks on sumps are best found with lower viscosity liquids eg gasoline/petrol. That's what I used after welding my wings and top plate on and it found them instantly, flick a match to remove the residue, then clean up and weld the pin holes and retest. 4. Having more capacity helps in many ways, and has saved my engine on the track while pumping "all of the oil" up into the head - there was still ample left to keep the pick up submerged. 5. The spacer thing can be a pain in the arse if you're trying to pull the sump off in the car without removing the engine for whatever reason (eg fix leaks or clean sump out after storage or coolant ingress) aside from that, it's a good thing. Looks like you have a lot of fun with the car, I hope my KP60 gets as much abuse :-)
Thanks for the tips! The sump spacer from MRP actually also spaces down the oil pickup so I shouldn't have any issues there. I'll probably look into fixing the baffled sump and switching to it if I start taking the car to road courses and such, but for now street driving and low speed drifting are my only plans so I'm not worried about using a stock pan.
@@DannyZiegler86 Hmmmm, well, make sure that is sealed properly and doesn't have any stray RTV inside it. I can't remember what seals them on a 4AGE but on my other engine OEM is a gasket and OEM sump is RTV and there are good reasons for that. I imagine it would be really tricky to get that right with one piece unless the sealing mechanism was common or an oring compression was used instead or something.
@@fredio54 OEM is a 2 bolt gasket, using factory gaskets on both sides of the spacer.
@@DannyZiegler86 In that case you really need a matching gasket for the sump, too, at least on that side of it, so it torques down evenly and doesn't warp. I'm telling you, that seal is crucial. Ignore that at your peril.
Awesome video man, I watched your street pulls video 10 times
Thanks for sharing!!!
Hello
I'm one of those 10 people :p
Much appreciated ❤️
Hi what belt did you use and y did you have to mess with the block couldn't u just bolt it to the head?
Since your basically doing it over have you considered getting another 7afe block and going with all tec arts 7age stuff
They don't make anything that MRP doesn't, and all the MRP stuff is quality and been proven in their own builds so I trust it. My rods were fine and I don't have the cash to drop on a forged crank so a replacement factory one is fine.
So who knows what mounts to use for a 7a block in a TE72 body? I've been searching for months with no luck. I'm okay with welding and fabrication but i don't think I'm good enough to build my own. Anybody got any ideas? Love the video dude. Lots to learn for my 7age build
hopefully you do a pure sound drive with it I'd like to use it for a game
My god he’s actually back
*For a limited time only, while supplies last*
So u only using 180i block with 20v pistons nd 20v head?
7AFE block and crank, custom rods, 16v 4AGE pistons, head, etc.
Hello..🙂..what type of pistons do you use ..? Rg Lars...Denmark
The old engine used Arias pistons, my new build will be running Traum.
Could you use the crank girdle to space & brace the block? Instead of just the spacer?
Absolutely, I have a crank girdle actually that I was going to use but for some reason there was an issue with my main cap height that caused it to interfere on one edge of the block so I decided to just do cap straps instead and a sump spacer.
Subscribed from Ireland!!
We just use the 7a sump, is that not an option?
10 people are now 10k people
Me looking at my 93 corolla wagon with a 7afe and my 86 💀
Are you using forged rods as well?
Yes, MRP rods
Cool
is it 7afe head and a 4age block?
The opposite. 4AG head, 7AFE block.
@@DannyZiegler86 ohh ok
COROLLA CONTENT YAY.
whats up with the brotary
It exists, that's about all that it is though lol
@@DannyZiegler86 LIES I DONT BELIEVE YOU.
YOU MADE ME BUY AN SR20..... or rather i just figure i can make an sr20 corolla run faster than your brotary
Just keep maken videos 👍
Omg, so hawt
teach me daddy
UwU