Great job of trying to muddle through a vague term. For me, I consider three criteria for a sailboat to be a cutter: 1.) number of headsails, 2.) proportion of head sails in size to mainsail, and 3.) intention of headsails. More than one headsail? Check. Total headsail area nearly that of, or greater than that of the mainsail? Check. All these counted headsails part of the "working rig", as in useable in all points of sail? Check. If all three of these criteria are met, we are definitely looking at a cutter, no matter where the mast protrudes from the deck (usually, it has to be pretty far aft to meet these three criteria, but not always.) On a full keel boat, for example, the Effective Center of Latteral Resistance can be so far forward that working headsails must be placed well past the bow to balance the boat (something to consider when thinking about a full keel boat.) In the days of working sail, Europe was blessed with deep water harbors. But dock space was at a premium. So the bow sprit was removable. As an added point of cleverness, the outer jib was seen mostly as a light wind sail. And the mainsail had a topsail. So, when the wind got stronger, the topsail and the outer jib were both struck, leaving just the inner jib and the plain main standing. The US was generally not blessed with such harbors, so removable bowsprits were not a thing (shallow keels and center boards were, however.) So we had "sloop boats" here, which often flew more than one jib. Joshua Slocum's SPRAY was a good example. In its original configuration, it had a huge main and two smaller jibs. Even with their areas added together, they were dwarfed by the massive main, which clearly totalled more than half the boat's sail area.
You found out the little secret about sail boats. Since sails give the boat thrust and wetted area increases drag through the water, the game is to increase sail area and decrease hull size. A bow spirit will help add sail area and by extending the hull with a really sharp stem and a long overhand at the stern you get increased hull speed without building a longer boat with bigger wetted area. Also a double ended hull is faster through the water than a wide transom with lots of drag. You don't increase the cabin area or make the boat more comfortable but the tradeoff is a faster boat under sail. That's the real reason the pilot cutter was created. The first pilot that got to the ship was the one who brought it into harbor.
I wish it were waterline! I’m 32 feet in the water but about 52 if you count everything hanging off the front and back! Thankfully they go by the model name so I pay for smaller than I actually am.
First realize I'm a computer engineer and so what I'm about to say is just an opinion. I would think that whether it's a sloop or a cutter would be based on the mast based upon forward and aft stays. So the bowsprit would only count if the forward stay is mounted on the end of it. Hence the picture that you showed that was considered a cutter with the bowsprit.
You can tell me I’m wrong, but as I got it: When the boat move, the keel, or spade, must counter balance the forces of the rig. When sailing the boat, in balance, there’s very little force on the rudder. Above, is the resulting vectors of the forces acting in the longitudinal direction. Across the boat, the center of gravity keeps the boat upright. On a normal keel boat, the center of gravity is somewhat near a line vertical to the keel. Therefore the center of the boat must be roughly around the center of the keel ( spade ). The middle of the boat don’t really define anything, but you must look where the center of the spade/keel is. This comply the any kind of keel or spade.
You are correct. The center of effort of the sails is designed to be over the center of lateral resistance of the underwater portion. If the sails are all forward, the keel needs to be as well.
Good explanation!. No matter what modern marine architects may say, you can't undo the description that has been in use for 100+ years. Many boats built at the turn of the century as cutters only comply with the 70% definition with their bowsprit. But as you described, those bowsprits were more permanently mounted than a modern fiber pole.
It is all so much easier on the 'eastern side of the Atlantic', from Wikipedia: "As a sailing rig, a cutter is a single-masted boat, with two or more headsails.[a] On the eastern side of the Atlantic, the two headsails on a single mast is the fullest extent of the modern definition. In U.S. waters, a greater level of complexity applies, with the placement of the mast and the rigging details of the bowsprit taken into account - so a boat with two headsails may be classed as a sloop" Still today in the British Isles we term a single masted yacht/working boat either a cutter or a sloop according to whether it has a single or double working headsail rig - job done. So over here, your Algard 30 will be a cutter by the time you add your second headsail, whether set from a bowsprit or not.
If the bow sprit is counted as part of the length of the boat then boatyards would be happy. A 40’ boat turns into a 45’ boat so they charge out the hull clean and haul out at the 45’ price! Same with the rear overhang, which they do take into account (for cleaning purposes) even though it’s not in the water.
Whether it's a cutter or a sloop? Isn't this question based upon rigging. So as I stated in the previous statement it depends the distance of the rigging. But in the end does it really matter whether the boat you're looking at is a cutter or a sloop it is a boat and how you seal it is based upon what's on the boat what do you call a cutter or a sloop is irrelevant. I think
Hmmm,.. why did they choose the names "Cutter", "Sloop", and "Schooner". ..perhaps that might give us some insight into why they're called what they are. Cutter - "cuts through the water", speed boat (may be also "cutter of revenue" as "enforcement boats" vs scalawags) Sloop - sloep, slūpan - "to glide" Schooner - scon (scottish) - "to skip over the water" So,.. It looks like: Cutters: "small speedy low capacity boats" that "belong" to a larger ship, used as an auxiliary to intercept or "cut off" Sloops: "fast medium sized and capacity boats" that are especially good at pointing high, not "belonging" to a larger ship Schooners: "fast yet large size and capacity boats" that need >1 mast, and are "easy" to handle
The one obvious thing to me, is that the boat/ship at dock should not be what is measured. So if some one has a fold-able dingy, the boat is measured in it's unfolded (or joined if it is of the split type) rather than by how much space it takes on deck when stowed. The same thing for a larger boat, it should be measured when it is configured for sailing. Water line _should_ be measured when the boat is heeled. My personal idea of a cutter, is that it is designed to be sailed with more than one jib on more than one head stay all the time. Generally as a way of making big head sails manageable because they were from the days of no hydraulic winches(or roller furling). In other words a cutter has no genoa, the genoa takes the place of a cutter rig (historically). You might almost say that a boat with a genoa is not a cutter rig ;) I think the purpose of the various head sails is what counts, A cutter rig has the purpose of flying more sails to make more sail area, not to allow having a storm sail and a genoa available at the same time only one of which will be used at a time. What does this mean for modern racing boats that fly three head sails on three stays with a genoa, jib and stormsail all flying at the same time where the jib and the storm jib blanket part of the genoa? I dunno but I wouldn't call it a cutter...
@@RiggingDoctor Hmmmm. That's like 9 MONTHS in 1 place!! And it doesn't look like Mattie had a baby. I had told you that lots of regular uploads isn't the problem... You aren't sailing even close to enough. Sitting on a couch telling stories isn't going to bring in the viewers. I like you guys so I'm shooting you straight. And the scene that is my favorite out of all the sailing channels I watch ( and I watch a LOT ): it's the one in that video you saw, of you two. I can tell you want your channel to pay your bills so it would be a good idea to get your video and sailing business on track. If you recognize my channel name from my comments, you'll know I'm a critical cookie, so I'm not sure if my pointers would be palatable. Should you choose the red pill, my email is my channel name at gmail. The thing is, there's this channel, sailing nervous, the worst sailing channel known to man; even worse than gone with the wynns and la vagabonde. BUT, they have 17K subscribers without sailing, horrible editing, and just generally unwatchable. I consider them the "stick" for sailing channels. In other words, if you aren't beating them, it might be time to consider going back to the drawing board.
It is all semantics. The sail plan and what is being carried is all that matters. If some stuff shirt commodore insists on a definition just agree and move on.
![WHY Two Headsails? [Cutter vs Slutter vs Solent] | Sailing Wisdom](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hQf_dmMduV4/mqdefault.jpg)
Great job of trying to muddle through a vague term.
For me, I consider three criteria for a sailboat to be a cutter:
1.) number of headsails,
2.) proportion of head sails in size to mainsail, and
3.) intention of headsails.
More than one headsail? Check.
Total headsail area nearly that of, or greater than that of the mainsail? Check.
All these counted headsails part of the "working rig", as in useable in all points of sail? Check.
If all three of these criteria are met, we are definitely looking at a cutter, no matter where the mast protrudes from the deck (usually, it has to be pretty far aft to meet these three criteria, but not always.)
On a full keel boat, for example, the Effective Center of Latteral Resistance can be so far forward that working headsails must be placed well past the bow to balance the boat (something to consider when thinking about a full keel boat.)
In the days of working sail, Europe was blessed with deep water harbors. But dock space was at a premium. So the bow sprit was removable. As an added point of cleverness, the outer jib was seen mostly as a light wind sail. And the mainsail had a topsail. So, when the wind got stronger, the topsail and the outer jib were both struck, leaving just the inner jib and the plain main standing.
The US was generally not blessed with such harbors, so removable bowsprits were not a thing (shallow keels and center boards were, however.) So we had "sloop boats" here, which often flew more than one jib.
Joshua Slocum's SPRAY was a good example. In its original configuration, it had a huge main and two smaller jibs. Even with their areas added together, they were dwarfed by the massive main, which clearly totalled more than half the boat's sail area.
This has been a great series. Thanks for doing it!
You found out the little secret about sail boats. Since sails give the boat thrust and wetted area increases drag through the water, the game is to increase sail area and decrease hull size. A bow spirit will help add sail area and by extending the hull with a really sharp stem and a long overhand at the stern you get increased hull speed without building a longer boat with bigger wetted area. Also a double ended hull is faster through the water than a wide transom with lots of drag. You don't increase the cabin area or make the boat more comfortable but the tradeoff is a faster boat under sail. That's the real reason the pilot cutter was created. The first pilot that got to the ship was the one who brought it into harbor.
About the same reason marinas changed to length over all from waterline, for slip placement & $'s
I wish it were waterline! I’m 32 feet in the water but about 52 if you count everything hanging off the front and back! Thankfully they go by the model name so I pay for smaller than I actually am.
One Marina we were in measured the length of our shadow at noon on the ground when we were on the hard. Never went back to that place!
First realize I'm a computer engineer and so what I'm about to say is just an opinion. I would think that whether it's a sloop or a cutter would be based on the mast based upon forward and aft stays. So the bowsprit would only count if the forward stay is mounted on the end of it. Hence the picture that you showed that was considered a cutter with the bowsprit.
You can tell me I’m wrong, but as I got it:
When the boat move, the keel, or spade, must counter balance the forces of the rig.
When sailing the boat, in balance, there’s very little force on the rudder.
Above, is the resulting vectors of the forces acting in the longitudinal direction.
Across the boat, the center of gravity keeps the boat upright.
On a normal keel boat, the center of gravity is somewhat near a line vertical to the keel.
Therefore the center of the boat must be roughly around the center of the keel ( spade ).
The middle of the boat don’t really define anything, but you must look where the center of the spade/keel is.
This comply the any kind of keel or spade.
You are correct. The center of effort of the sails is designed to be over the center of lateral resistance of the underwater portion. If the sails are all forward, the keel needs to be as well.
Good explanation!. No matter what modern marine architects may say, you can't undo the description that has been in use for 100+ years. Many boats built at the turn of the century as cutters only comply with the 70% definition with their bowsprit. But as you described, those bowsprits were more permanently mounted than a modern fiber pole.
Some of us captains like the advantages that come with a large bow and stern overhang 😁
Thank you for showing me the right way to go.
So if my sloop has an extendable bowsprit, which restroom should it use?
The headstay.
@@joeythehat9 Is that on the poop deck?
Haha!
It is all so much easier on the 'eastern side of the Atlantic', from Wikipedia:
"As a sailing rig, a cutter is a single-masted boat, with two or more headsails.[a] On the eastern side of the Atlantic, the two headsails on a single mast is the fullest extent of the modern definition. In U.S. waters, a greater level of complexity applies, with the placement of the mast and the rigging details of the bowsprit taken into account - so a boat with two headsails may be classed as a sloop"
Still today in the British Isles we term a single masted yacht/working boat either a cutter or a sloop according to whether it has a single or double working headsail rig - job done. So over here, your Algard 30 will be a cutter by the time you add your second headsail, whether set from a bowsprit or not.
It’s interesting how different places have different definitions for the same thing :)
If the bow sprit is counted as part of the length of the boat then boatyards would be happy. A 40’ boat turns into a 45’ boat so they charge out the hull clean and haul out at the 45’ price! Same with the rear overhang, which they do take into account (for cleaning purposes) even though it’s not in the water.
Boat yards, always charging what costs more money ;)
Whether it's a cutter or a sloop? Isn't this question based upon rigging. So as I stated in the previous statement it depends the distance of the rigging. But in the end does it really matter whether the boat you're looking at is a cutter or a sloop it is a boat and how you seal it is based upon what's on the boat what do you call a cutter or a sloop is irrelevant. I think
I thought the staysail made it a cutter bow sprit or no bowsprit.
Hmmm,.. why did they choose the names "Cutter", "Sloop", and "Schooner".
..perhaps that might give us some insight into why they're called what they are.
Cutter - "cuts through the water", speed boat (may be also "cutter of revenue" as "enforcement boats" vs scalawags)
Sloop - sloep, slūpan - "to glide"
Schooner - scon (scottish) - "to skip over the water"
So,.. It looks like:
Cutters: "small speedy low capacity boats" that "belong" to a larger ship, used as an auxiliary to intercept or "cut off"
Sloops: "fast medium sized and capacity boats" that are especially good at pointing high, not "belonging" to a larger ship
Schooners: "fast yet large size and capacity boats" that need >1 mast, and are "easy" to handle
Nicely put!
The one obvious thing to me, is that the boat/ship at dock should not be what is measured. So if some one has a fold-able dingy, the boat is measured in it's unfolded (or joined if it is of the split type) rather than by how much space it takes on deck when stowed. The same thing for a larger boat, it should be measured when it is configured for sailing. Water line _should_ be measured when the boat is heeled. My personal idea of a cutter, is that it is designed to be sailed with more than one jib on more than one head stay all the time. Generally as a way of making big head sails manageable because they were from the days of no hydraulic winches(or roller furling). In other words a cutter has no genoa, the genoa takes the place of a cutter rig (historically). You might almost say that a boat with a genoa is not a cutter rig ;) I think the purpose of the various head sails is what counts, A cutter rig has the purpose of flying more sails to make more sail area, not to allow having a storm sail and a genoa available at the same time only one of which will be used at a time.
What does this mean for modern racing boats that fly three head sails on three stays with a genoa, jib and stormsail all flying at the same time where the jib and the storm jib blanket part of the genoa? I dunno but I wouldn't call it a cutter...
I call them speed machines!
cutter sounds cooler so that's what I tell the ladies :)
😂
I would go with the boat builder !!
So what happens if the mast is right at the 40% mark? Is it a coop or a slutter? lol
40% is a cutter, 39% a sloop.
Hello nice video looking for the next saludos
What happened to your boat?
It’s in the Azores right now. We fly back to it next week
How long has it been in the Azores?
Since August 2018
Thankfully we go back to it in a week and shove off for mainland Portugal :)
@@RiggingDoctor Hmmmm. That's like 9 MONTHS in 1 place!! And it doesn't look like Mattie had a baby.
I had told you that lots of regular uploads isn't the problem... You aren't sailing even close to enough. Sitting on a couch telling stories isn't going to bring in the viewers. I like you guys so I'm shooting you straight. And the scene that is my favorite out of all the sailing channels I watch ( and I watch a LOT ): it's the one in that video you saw, of you two. I can tell you want your channel to pay your bills so it would be a good idea to get your video and sailing business on track. If you recognize my channel name from my comments, you'll know I'm a critical cookie, so I'm not sure if my pointers would be palatable. Should you choose the red pill, my email is my channel name at gmail.
The thing is, there's this channel, sailing nervous, the worst sailing channel known to man; even worse than gone with the wynns and la vagabonde. BUT, they have 17K subscribers without sailing, horrible editing, and just generally unwatchable. I consider them the "stick" for sailing channels. In other words, if you aren't beating them, it might be time to consider going back to the drawing board.
If anyone has a clear answer on the definitions it would be the RYA - Royal Yachting Association. find them at www.rya.org.uk
Is this guy a rigger?
Yes
It is all semantics. The sail plan and what is being carried is all that matters. If some stuff shirt commodore insists on a definition just agree and move on.
Stuff-shirt commodore, lol.
No category survives contact with reality --- me. :_
All I want to know is wears the bird and one more thing never make another video without the bird:)
Sammy goes inside my shirt sometimes, otherwise she is on my shoulder