Lots of discussion on straight v/s fog streams here. From my 25 years on the job, I have learned that if there is a known life hazard, I am going to straight stream immediately. why? Because the civilian doesn't have ppe/scba that we have. The straight stream doesn't interrupt the thermal column no where near as much as the fog does. The straight stream doesn't create as much steam as the fog. This gives our victim at least a fighting chance. Now if the situation is reversed and all I have to do is put out fire then sure I will open up the pattern. Remember our basics, R.E.C.E.O Rescue is 1st. Exposure is 2nd. Confinement 3rd. Extinguishment 4th and Overhaul is 5th. I realize that all 5 can be happening at the same time but our priority is rescuing that life. Love you brothers out there be safe!
over here in Europe the firefighters use fog stream position most of the time on interior attack when you have hot fuel gasses... but not in a continuos fog stream but short pulsing to cool down the fuel gas mix... but both stream patterns have their place in the attack... for example to cool down surfaces and prevent further pyrolysis the straigt stream is suited better... and so it is for direct attack on burning materials the mix of "pulsing and penciling" is the key to success this for example means that our firefighters are trained to make "temperature checks" when there is smoke above them... our members of the firefigther service get trained to never walk into smoke without water at the nozzle (temperature check = short fog pulse above their heads to see if water comes down that would mean cool... hot layer of gas means no water coming down so further cooling of gas layer needed) sure, our homes are built different from the ones in the states as well... so every department and every country has to find the way that is best suited for their areas of attack if it is just to extinguish the fire and the building is in full flashover... no people in it... perhaps even having a exterior attack is the best way to go... to knock down flames... (from a European point of view with plenty of concrete and brick buildings) if you can, try to get some CFBT classes in Europe and see how they work (IFRT in Germany is a good name for that) all the best and have a safe time fighting fires :-) but most important... stay safe as well as come back home alive all the time if possible :-) by the way... several fire departments even use high pressure hoselines for interiour attack with up to 580 psi at the nozzle over here in Europe... especially the dutch ones love them
Bringing a hose line is just going to slow you down for a rescue. Portable extinguishers are great cause there super portable, surprisingly capable, and you can just drop them if you need to. Especially Co2 extinguishers.
the discussion here cast doubts in the way we do it in my org. i think i have to thank about it carefully and might have to get things done to reflect what i learnt here.
@@JB91710 I'm so sick of hearing about this old "steam em like a lobsta" bullshit that comes out of American firefighter training. European firefighting techniques are so far ahead of American ones, that it might as well not even be in the same type of service or even century for that matter. How did we ever get to this point that knocking down flames and cooling thermal layers is bad for victim survival throughout the structure? So we disperse some heat throughout the layers , but overall rapidly start cooling the ambient temperature of the entire structure to more tenable levels and that is supposed to be bad for fire rescue? Didn't we just talk about the damn triangle, with heat being one of the necessary components? If the victim is in the fire room, I'm sorry to say, it's not rescue at that point, it's body recovery, so what the hell are our firefighters going on about? Are we seriously going to pretend we are worried about steam in a room that's already reached 800+ degrees, 6 inches to a foot above the floor? If we are worried about that, then I guess we had best start removing all those sprinkler systems that most places are required by law to install now.
@@TNAROHfan Now, if you are going to Think and use common sense and logic before your comment, you are going to be as hated as me. Don't you know you have to be an ignorant child to be loved here? Americans, at this LOW level of the work force, are the world's best FOLLOWERS! If someone sounds like they know what they are talking about then all the sheep repeat what they have been told. People in other country's treat firefighting for what it is, a JOB and, a responsibility. In America, it is a game. A way to get off without having to work for a living! They don't realize that all the water vapor will go out the window with the smoke. They are so terrified by the thought of being steamed to death but where do they prefer to be when they apply the water? From the INSIDE! Geniuses! Oh no! Don't mention sprinkler systems! You'll embarrass them for being so blind.
Just a layperson here but I had never heard of flashover or really anything about how a fire progresses until I watched the station nightclub fire video. That scared the crap out of me! I now respect fire a whole lot more. You know how people say what would you save in a fire? Me and my family and get the heck out!
I think I'm kind of late to the party, but found your video while doing some research on aircraft in-flight fires, specifically Air Canada 797 that experienced a flashover in the cabin after making an emergency landing in Cincinnati and subsequently opening the doors for passenger evacuation. Very educational video, particularly to a non-firefighter such as myself. I knew there was a science to firefighting, but I had no idea. Again, great video.
Great video. I've received flashover training in Scotland and one thing that differs slightly from your video is rather than cool the gases with a straight jet, we are taught to use a cone to gas cool. Cone size is dependent on compartment size, but in most domestic situations it would be about a meter or so in diameter. There are two main reasons for this: 1) using a cone creates smaller and better dispersed water droplets (and therefore more surface area) which improved the cooling efficiency of the water jet (meaning less water required) 2) Cooling is usually performed with three short bursts of the jet - one to the right, one to the left and one in the middle. This helps to control the movement of the hot gases in the compartment - the coned jet can be used to "push back" the hot gases, whereas the straight jet pushed through and is more likely to bring the hot gases down. I don't now which method is more effective, but firefighters everywhere should share knowledge to make it safer for every firefighter. I would be interested to hear comments on this.
+Jay Bostock when you use a cone you have one main advantage. Quicker steam conversion if it gets real shitty in there. One bad thing is when you push the gases back, you can possibly interrupt the thermal balance, pushing the hot gases to the floor and cooler gases up top. Yourself, potential victims and other firefighters could be steamed. I do like this method myself but I would prefer the straight or solid stream.
+Anthony Jackson what you say of course its true, but what Jay said is also true. you could only be steamed if you dont know how to perform and apply the cones rapidly, it requires training, and experience, to put the nozzle position in the right angle
You mentioned the ceiling height can be a factor in flashovers. It was when I had a fire in my dining room. All the first floor ceilings were 10' high. The room had smoke billowing from ceiling to about shoulder height (the smoke residue was visible on the walls). The chief said it would have flashed in less than five minutes. A humorous note - the department was training that day so every firefighter was there for training - and eager to respond to the 911 call!
I did 27 myself I adopted a semi stream approach I fogged my straight stream just ever so about 20' out I had a diameter around 12 ish inches. Worked very well for me over the years.
Yeah, breaking windows and squirting water on burning stuff can really take a high IQ. Too bad most of those people go out and actually work for a living instead of sitting around polishing their chrome until they can play the hero.
Wow thanks for breaking that down. so flashover was WORSE than I thought! or was about what I thought.. but much worse. 1000 degrees and more! I've been trying to understand exactly how it was and what happened inside the station fire of 2003 in Rhode Island, with the band Great White. My God! them people didn't have a chance! and it was over in seconds. You guys really don't get appreciated enough! the danger and trauma you go through, emts, doctors, police.. It definitely takes some special people to do these jobs and go on day after day.. Thank you guys! you are the heroes.
great explanation, i actually attended a training for Flashover and this video summarizes the flashover attitude very well. is there online courses that firefighters are able to attend from different countries? i would love to get more involved in fire behavior and to be more advanced
Very interesting watch. I was glad to hear them use the term ' hit it hard form the yard ' . Many firefighters in certain countries think you have to go inside and push it out which is rubbish to be honest. Its like the guy said , if it is banging out the window soften it up from outside with a tight jet. This makes it easier for internal crews to get in and work quickly and can be don e outside by another firefighter while the interior crews get ready
This isn't too bad a video, but I do have a couple of issues: First, one of the gentlemen makes the passing assertion that in the past, we were pushing people into what he asserts was overly-aggressive interior fire attacks and "we were losing people" (5:37). I have heard that comment put out there many times that we are losing people from overly aggressive interior fire attacks. However, the numbers do not play out. Not even in the injury statistics. Do not mistake me: I am not suggesting we throw caution to the wind and John Wayne this stuff. But there is no good reason to conflate an issue and what is occurring is firefighters are actually becoming too scared of getting into fires and ICs are pulling people out when there was really no need to do so and buildings are being lost as a result. I would just caution against the use of terms and concepts that do not bear equivalence with what is actually occurring. Second, they speak of what we commonly understand as "rollover", but advance the term "lean flashover to describe it. Again, I am not certain as to why the terms are being rewritten. Is there something there that the term "rollover" does not describe accurately? I tend to wonder if this is not another attempt to conflate an issue beyond what is actually occurring to create a supposed safety issue. We do have to remember that simplicity is key in the fire service, because we have enough on our plate for complications without creating them ourselves with ancillary things such as terminology. Again, I am not trying to dismiss a potential issue that must be addressed, but I want my students to understand what is happening simply and be able to describe it siply so that decisions and actions are easy to make and are easy to justify.
First, just a small point, but I do not think 'conflate' is the word you were wanting to use. Conflate means to combine two ideas into one. As to the safety issue of being overly aggressive on interior fire attacks, anytime a FF dies or receives a thermal injury at a fire scene that does not involve a victim search/rescue, it usually is the result of an improper decision making process. In other words, the tactics used (and risks associated with said tactics) did not match the possible benefits. Obviously there are times when the best incident commander and fire attack crew are unable to see a hidden danger, or the scene presentation belies the reality of the actual dangers present, but generally speaking we should be able to choose appropriate strategies and tactics to mitigate the scene without putting our FF's at undue risk. A more scientific approach to the fireground allows us to perform our job in a safer manner. At least I feel that this was the main focus of the narrator suggesting a change in our fire attack tactics. Better education about the science of fire should do the opposite of making firefighters 'too scared'.As far as the terminology, I did not feel that the video was suggesting that we change from 'rollover' to 'lean flashover', I simply understood as helping the viewer better understand what is occurring during 'rollover'. Personally, I feel that 'lean flashover' is a better description of the fire dynamics than 'rollover'. Not sure where you are getting the idea about the video creating safety issues that don't actually exist.
Draeger is a great tool to hone skills and techniques in a safe enviroment/simulation but after my training in a draeger simulator it was just that a simulator. I did flashover training in a container with class A materials burning and it was completely different. The fire does not behave the same with a gas fired simulator where the instructor holds a remote to the fire feed and artificial smoke(in the case of our simulator). Not trying to put down the benefits of the safe simulator but that's all it is a simulator. Still a great training tool.
High pressure smoke = aggressive pyrolysis. A sign that a room is hot, and you should take care not to add oxygen with entry or meet a wall of flames. Thankfully never had to enter a burning building, but playing around with smokeless firepits/woodgas stoves there is a point where smoke combines with hot oxygen and gives you that secondary combustion, giving you a lot more flames and heat. Before that, you get smoke and the occasional wisp of fire in the smoke as it gets up to operating temperature. When this happens on the ceiling of a room, it acts like a giant broiler. My only thought is that those 3 wall burn room demonstrations will give you a lot more oxygen than normal, although do let some heat out which might slow the pyrolysis, although probably flashover will occur faster. What will happen with less air is a room full of toxic smoke/woodgas, but you can get flames if a door or window is opened/broken.
David Sonnen there is a serious called kill the flash over I belive that uses alot of different techniques and shows the difference between straight stream vs fog and also goes over a few other things such as pushing the fire.
Mr. David, hi I´m Luis from México, you can find too much informationa on UL and NIST fire research, read about investigations of Daniel Madrzykowsky and Steven Kerber, they hav a very nice publications, good night and be safe.
Some good info but time to update this!!!! , quick 360 with TIC camera, (vented on non vented structure fire?)(flame? is hard form yard an option prior to entry?) smoke conditions(velocity volume density color??, fire load, collapse factors? , Is it dwelling occupied (time of day?) figuring where the heat is on the TIC 360, door control on entry, pencil with straight stream any heat. ( always with the wind, safer you can't push fire with a straight stream) or if enough crews are on scene can you coordinate Positive Pressure Ventilation (with the wind, PPV pushing to larger exit hole) sector just prior to fire attack entry crews*(ready with water hose lines) , understanding risk vs reward and survive ability factors of occupants and firefighters as well. Fire flow is what will kill fire fighters and that's when there is a window failure and driving wind sends super heated gases onto fire fighters in a hallway, all because they are not going with the wind.
Now I’m obsessed with this video for fire safety. Obsessed and I am not a fire fighter. Obsessed now and already beginning to know this stuff. What lead to this every now and then obsession is because of the fact that I had a grease fire 6 months ago from the time of this comment I posted. Yes I had a grease fire in my apartment in Provo Utah on April 19th 2018. I had a degree burn. I had a second degree burn injury but and it healed somewhere around late May and early June or something. I still have scar and not that bad looking even. I still managed to kill the flames at point blank range with baking soda. Yes I used baking soda. I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT USE ANY WATER! I repeat I DID NOT use any water and was smart not to do that as that is the worse thing anyone can do in a grease fire.
Sodium bicarbonate can be used to extinguish small grease or electrical fires by being thrown over the fire, as heating of sodium bicarbonate releases carbon dioxide.[25] However, it should not be applied to fires in deep fryers; the sudden release of gas may cause the grease to splatter.[25] Sodium bicarbonate is used in BC dry chemical fire extinguishers as an alternative to the more corrosive diammonium phosphate in ABC extinguishers. The alkaline nature of sodium bicarbonate makes it the only dry chemical agent, besides Purple-K, that was used in large-scale fire suppression systems installed in commercial kitchens. Because it can act as an alkali, the agent has a mild saponification effect on hot grease, which forms a smothering, soapy foam.
@@wiretamer5710 Ok, but us enlightened folk don't use class B agents for grease fires anymore. Class K agents work best because they found out that most kitchen fires are completely different from class B fires.
Only because the environment outside the fire room is relatively cooler than in there. And they mention in other videos that smoke explosions don't need high temperature compartments
i have been watching department an one thing i see is the fighters are not dressed to fight when i was on the Saginaw mi when we arrived the chief expected us to have helmet an air on to attach
Once a flasher occurs, if the space is occupied, it instantly goes from a rescue effort to a recovery effort. A room flashes, it is not a survivable environment for anyone not in PPE.
+Scott Liebenberg The song was created for the Disney movie "Million Dollar Arm" but the scene where the song was played got cut out the movie. That is all the info we have. Thank you.
Maybe it doesnt make sense to ventilate at all. Why not have some kind of mobile chamber to place in front of doors so you can maintain a seal. Open chamber door, enter the chamber, close chamber door, open door to main structure and enter. This way you can make entry while also adding minimal oxygen. Build it out of like 1/2" plexiglass and mount the whole thing on the back of an f250 with a little hydraulic lift. Use sandbags to level out the ground if needed and duct tape to get as good a seal as possible to the building. Realistically, as long as you rate it for load capacity, you dont even need to sandbag it just use the crane to keep it pressed against the building. You could even have built in attack lines plumbed right into the chamber on hose reals so you don't have to mess around.
Or, a curtain with a fixing bar, like a pull up bar design with a curtain hanging below that hose and Crews can pass underneath. We now have those here in the uk.
you can't cool hot fire gases with a direct stream of your nozzle, it wont cool the gases cause the water particles aren't scattered. direct streams of water will only hit the ceiling and wont make the desirable effect, and if you push too much on the stream, steam created from it will just boil you...
+Cris Can I agree. if 1 is the hardest/most direct nozzle and 10 is the fog you should cool the gases with a 3-4 nozzle, at least thats how I was taught :)
Cris Can exactly, and every situation is different, no 2 fires have the same characteristics. You definitely don't want to use the hardest and most direct nozzle though :)
Exactly Francis, straight stream is the way to go. The ceiling will create a sprinkler affect. And using them in small burst. Lets trust the training and science please. Don't listen to these false principles by Cris.
Conoscere i rischi del nostro mestiere ci peette di agire meglio e rischiare meno.Peccato che in Italia gli investimenti sugli addestramenti sono ridotti al lumicino.....Preverranno il rischio con qualche altra assurda direttiva!😣😣😣
+firefighter9148 true...its not good to water pumps, but new hose lines with new diameters no longer create pressure differences on the hose line and water pumps. open and close that line so quickly is a vital need in a flashover control.
Skip the open close. Bounce it off the roof frequently, that will get the spray to suck the heat down. When the droplets stop coming from the ceiling soak the upper area again. Cool your way to the red stuff.
I couldn't get through a few minutes of this. This is not brain surgery. A fire room is most likely to have windows. A 360 will most likely find the fire room. The room is full of hot, flammable gasses and so are adjacent rooms and hallways. You bring a booster line connected to Tank Water to those windows, break the windows and immediately soak the burning material. Everything vents out the windows and the threat of flashover anywhere in the structure is over. Within one minute of arrival and Long before an entry team can be assembled, get fully dressed and get the front door open, the victims and the entering fire fighters are protected. Now I know going into a safe house is less fun than a burning house but eliminating the threat is your JOB! End of training!
My question is, at what point do you risk your life? I know its situation by situation, and use your common sense. But if I'm worried about all these things, what is the likelihood I'm going to save anyone in the building or room I'm entering? I'm new, but I'm not doing this job to have stories. I want to help people and survive. if i have full PPE and it's already hot AF, am I going to actually get out of there? Because someones brick and mortar can kiss my ass....I don't want to risk my life over someones precious house or building...
Lots of discussion on straight v/s fog streams here. From my 25 years on the job, I have learned that if there is a known life hazard, I am going to straight stream immediately. why? Because the civilian doesn't have ppe/scba that we have. The straight stream doesn't interrupt the thermal column no where near as much as the fog does. The straight stream doesn't create as much steam as the fog. This gives our victim at least a fighting chance. Now if the situation is reversed and all I have to do is put out fire then sure I will open up the pattern. Remember our basics, R.E.C.E.O Rescue is 1st. Exposure is 2nd. Confinement 3rd. Extinguishment 4th and Overhaul is 5th. I realize that all 5 can be happening at the same time but our priority is rescuing that life. Love you brothers out there be safe!
over here in Europe the firefighters use fog stream position most of the time on interior attack when you have hot fuel gasses... but not in a continuos fog stream but short pulsing to cool down the fuel gas mix... but both stream patterns have their place in the attack... for example to cool down surfaces and prevent further pyrolysis the straigt stream is suited better... and so it is for direct attack on burning materials
the mix of "pulsing and penciling" is the key to success
this for example means that our firefighters are trained to make "temperature checks" when there is smoke above them... our members of the firefigther service get trained to never walk into smoke without water at the nozzle (temperature check = short fog pulse above their heads to see if water comes down that would mean cool... hot layer of gas means no water coming down so further cooling of gas layer needed)
sure, our homes are built different from the ones in the states as well... so every department and every country has to find the way that is best suited for their areas of attack
if it is just to extinguish the fire and the building is in full flashover... no people in it... perhaps even having a exterior attack is the best way to go... to knock down flames... (from a European point of view with plenty of concrete and brick buildings)
if you can, try to get some CFBT classes in Europe and see how they work (IFRT in Germany is a good name for that)
all the best and have a safe time fighting fires :-)
but most important... stay safe as well as come back home alive all the time if possible :-)
by the way... several fire departments even use high pressure hoselines for interiour attack with up to 580 psi at the nozzle over here in Europe... especially the dutch ones love them
Bringing a hose line is just going to slow you down for a rescue.
Portable extinguishers are great cause there super portable, surprisingly capable, and you can just drop them if you need to.
Especially Co2 extinguishers.
the discussion here cast doubts in the way we do it in my org. i think i have to thank about it carefully and might have to get things done to reflect what i learnt here.
@@JB91710 I'm so sick of hearing about this old "steam em like a lobsta" bullshit that comes out of American firefighter training. European firefighting techniques are so far ahead of American ones, that it might as well not even be in the same type of service or even century for that matter. How did we ever get to this point that knocking down flames and cooling thermal layers is bad for victim survival throughout the structure? So we disperse some heat throughout the layers , but overall rapidly start cooling the ambient temperature of the entire structure to more tenable levels and that is supposed to be bad for fire rescue? Didn't we just talk about the damn triangle, with heat being one of the necessary components? If the victim is in the fire room, I'm sorry to say, it's not rescue at that point, it's body recovery, so what the hell are our firefighters going on about? Are we seriously going to pretend we are worried about steam in a room that's already reached 800+ degrees, 6 inches to a foot above the floor?
If we are worried about that, then I guess we had best start removing all those sprinkler systems that most places are required by law to install now.
@@TNAROHfan Now, if you are going to Think and use common sense and logic before your comment, you are going to be as hated as me. Don't you know you have to be an ignorant child to be loved here? Americans, at this LOW level of the work force, are the world's best FOLLOWERS! If someone sounds like they know what they are talking about then all the sheep repeat what they have been told. People in other country's treat firefighting for what it is, a JOB and, a responsibility. In America, it is a game. A way to get off without having to work for a living! They don't realize that all the water vapor will go out the window with the smoke. They are so terrified by the thought of being steamed to death but where do they prefer to be when they apply the water? From the INSIDE! Geniuses! Oh no! Don't mention sprinkler systems! You'll embarrass them for being so blind.
Just a layperson here but I had never heard of flashover or really anything about how a fire progresses until I watched the station nightclub fire video. That scared the crap out of me! I now respect fire a whole lot more. You know how people say what would you save in a fire? Me and my family and get the heck out!
I think I'm kind of late to the party, but found your video while doing some research on aircraft in-flight fires, specifically Air Canada 797 that experienced a flashover in the cabin after making an emergency landing in Cincinnati and subsequently opening the doors for passenger evacuation. Very educational video, particularly to a non-firefighter such as myself. I knew there was a science to firefighting, but I had no idea. Again, great video.
. . . this incredible concentrated knowledge within the heads of this fire department - the chief's and the engineer's together - is priceless . . .
Great video. I've received flashover training in Scotland and one thing that differs slightly from your video is rather than cool the gases with a straight jet, we are taught to use a cone to gas cool. Cone size is dependent on compartment size, but in most domestic situations it would be about a meter or so in diameter. There are two main reasons for this:
1) using a cone creates smaller and better dispersed water droplets (and therefore more surface area) which improved the cooling efficiency of the water jet (meaning less water required)
2) Cooling is usually performed with three short bursts of the jet - one to the right, one to the left and one in the middle. This helps to control the movement of the hot gases in the compartment - the coned jet can be used to "push back" the hot gases, whereas the straight jet pushed through and is more likely to bring the hot gases down.
I don't now which method is more effective, but firefighters everywhere should share knowledge to make it safer for every firefighter. I would be interested to hear comments on this.
+Jay Bostock when you use a cone you have one main advantage. Quicker steam conversion if it gets real shitty in there. One bad thing is when you push the gases back, you can possibly interrupt the thermal balance, pushing the hot gases to the floor and cooler gases up top. Yourself, potential victims and other firefighters could be steamed. I do like this method myself but I would prefer the straight or solid stream.
+Anthony Jackson what you say of course its true, but what Jay said is also true. you could only be steamed if you dont know how to perform and apply the cones rapidly, it requires training, and experience, to put the nozzle position in the right angle
+Anthony Jackson and for what i see in many videos, us europeans use the cone, while you americans use the jet stream.
Cris Can So would you pencil the cone? Like how you do the straight/solid stream?
+Anthony Jackson just rotating the tip of the nozzle depending on what you want it to do
Thank you for posting this. Incredibly informative and well done.
You mentioned the ceiling height can be a factor in flashovers. It was when I had a fire in my dining room. All the first floor ceilings were 10' high. The room had smoke billowing from ceiling to about shoulder height (the smoke residue was visible on the walls). The chief said it would have flashed in less than five minutes. A humorous note - the department was training that day so every firefighter was there for training - and eager to respond to the 911 call!
Massive respect to all fire fighters!
I did 27 myself I adopted a semi stream approach I fogged my straight stream just ever so about 20' out I had a diameter around 12 ish inches. Worked very well for me over the years.
Fire and firefighting is a highly technical - and dangerous - science and profession, and these guys are the Master Instructors.
Yeah, breaking windows and squirting water on burning stuff can really take a high IQ. Too bad most of those people go out and actually work for a living instead of sitting around polishing their chrome until they can play the hero.
It would be great to have that kind of training here in Peru.
Great presentation. It's the type of battlefield where you can change the dynamic until able to do the other things. Stay alert.
Thank you so much!!!! I will spread this knowledge with my mates.
Wow thanks for breaking that down. so flashover was WORSE than I thought! or was about what I thought.. but much worse. 1000 degrees and more! I've been trying to understand exactly how it was and what happened inside the station fire of 2003 in Rhode Island, with the band Great White. My God! them people didn't have a chance! and it was over in seconds. You guys really don't get appreciated enough! the danger and trauma you go through, emts, doctors, police.. It definitely takes some special people to do these jobs and go on day after day.. Thank you guys! you are the heroes.
This was an excellent training video.
great explanation, i actually attended a training for Flashover and this video summarizes the flashover attitude very well. is there online courses that firefighters are able to attend from different countries? i would love to get more involved in fire behavior and to be more advanced
Good Video, well done and great in depth visuals and explanations.
Very interesting watch. I was glad to hear them use the term ' hit it hard form the yard ' . Many firefighters in certain countries think you have to go inside and push it out which is rubbish to be honest. Its like the guy said , if it is banging out the window soften it up from outside with a tight jet. This makes it easier for internal crews to get in and work quickly and can be don e outside by another firefighter while the interior crews get ready
This isn't too bad a video, but I do have a couple of issues:
First, one of the gentlemen makes the passing assertion that in the past, we were pushing people into what he asserts was overly-aggressive interior fire attacks and "we were losing people" (5:37). I have heard that comment put out there many times that we are losing people from overly aggressive interior fire attacks. However, the numbers do not play out. Not even in the injury statistics. Do not mistake me: I am not suggesting we throw caution to the wind and John Wayne this stuff. But there is no good reason to conflate an issue and what is occurring is firefighters are actually becoming too scared of getting into fires and ICs are pulling people out when there was really no need to do so and buildings are being lost as a result. I would just caution against the use of terms and concepts that do not bear equivalence with what is actually occurring.
Second, they speak of what we commonly understand as "rollover", but advance the term "lean flashover to describe it. Again, I am not certain as to why the terms are being rewritten. Is there something there that the term "rollover" does not describe accurately? I tend to wonder if this is not another attempt to conflate an issue beyond what is actually occurring to create a supposed safety issue. We do have to remember that simplicity is key in the fire service, because we have enough on our plate for complications without creating them ourselves with ancillary things such as terminology. Again, I am not trying to dismiss a potential issue that must be addressed, but I want my students to understand what is happening simply and be able to describe it siply so that decisions and actions are easy to make and are easy to justify.
First, just a small point, but I do not think 'conflate' is the word you were wanting to use. Conflate means to combine two ideas into one. As to the safety issue of being overly aggressive on interior fire attacks, anytime a FF dies or receives a thermal injury at a fire scene that does not involve a victim search/rescue, it usually is the result of an improper decision making process. In other words, the tactics used (and risks associated with said tactics) did not match the possible benefits. Obviously there are times when the best incident commander and fire attack crew are unable to see a hidden danger, or the scene presentation belies the reality of the actual dangers present, but generally speaking we should be able to choose appropriate strategies and tactics to mitigate the scene without putting our FF's at undue risk. A more scientific approach to the fireground allows us to perform our job in a safer manner. At least I feel that this was the main focus of the narrator suggesting a change in our fire attack tactics. Better education about the science of fire should do the opposite of making firefighters 'too scared'.As far as the terminology, I did not feel that the video was suggesting that we change from 'rollover' to 'lean flashover', I simply understood as helping the viewer better understand what is occurring during 'rollover'. Personally, I feel that 'lean flashover' is a better description of the fire dynamics than 'rollover'. Not sure where you are getting the idea about the video creating safety issues that don't actually exist.
NAILED IT
A conundrum? Vent upwind or downwind? I would vent away from the crew if I knew where they were at, probably favoring downwind.
Great training video!
All the way from Shreveport, La
Excellent information and thank you for sharing!
Draeger is a great tool to hone skills and techniques in a safe enviroment/simulation but after my training in a draeger simulator it was just that a simulator. I did flashover training in a container with class A materials burning and it was completely different. The fire does not behave the same with a gas fired simulator where the instructor holds a remote to the fire feed and artificial smoke(in the case of our simulator).
Not trying to put down the benefits of the safe simulator but that's all it is a simulator.
Still a great training tool.
High pressure smoke = aggressive pyrolysis. A sign that a room is hot, and you should take care not to add oxygen with entry or meet a wall of flames. Thankfully never had to enter a burning building, but playing around with smokeless firepits/woodgas stoves there is a point where smoke combines with hot oxygen and gives you that secondary combustion, giving you a lot more flames and heat. Before that, you get smoke and the occasional wisp of fire in the smoke as it gets up to operating temperature. When this happens on the ceiling of a room, it acts like a giant broiler.
My only thought is that those 3 wall burn room demonstrations will give you a lot more oxygen than normal, although do let some heat out which might slow the pyrolysis, although probably flashover will occur faster. What will happen with less air is a room full of toxic smoke/woodgas, but you can get flames if a door or window is opened/broken.
How can we find more info on the physics of straight stream v. Wide pattern? Thanks for a really valuable video!
David Sonnen there is a serious called kill the flash over I belive that uses alot of different techniques and shows the difference between straight stream vs fog and also goes over a few other things such as pushing the fire.
Mr. David, hi I´m Luis from México, you can find too much informationa on UL and NIST fire research, read about investigations of Daniel Madrzykowsky and Steven Kerber, they hav a very nice publications, good night and be safe.
David Sonnen ifsta 6th edition chapter 4 I believe
Thank You for this knowledge!❤
Thank you for the upload, great video.
Thank you!!! This helped me so much
Awesome video.
Some good info but time to update this!!!! , quick 360 with TIC camera, (vented on non vented structure fire?)(flame? is hard form yard an option prior to entry?) smoke conditions(velocity volume density color??, fire load, collapse factors? , Is it dwelling occupied (time of day?) figuring where the heat is on the TIC 360, door control on entry, pencil with straight stream any heat. ( always with the wind, safer you can't push fire with a straight stream) or if enough crews are on scene can you coordinate Positive Pressure Ventilation (with the wind, PPV pushing to larger exit hole) sector just prior to fire attack entry crews*(ready with water hose lines) , understanding risk vs reward and survive ability factors of occupants and firefighters as well. Fire flow is what will kill fire fighters and that's when there is a window failure and driving wind sends super heated gases onto fire fighters in a hallway, all because they are not going with the wind.
That was amazing!!! So.articulate.
"What a fascinating moden age we live in" - Jack Aubrey
Now I’m obsessed with this video for fire safety. Obsessed and I am not a fire fighter. Obsessed now and already beginning to know this stuff. What lead to this every now and then obsession is because of the fact that I had a grease fire 6 months ago from the time of this comment I posted. Yes I had a grease fire in my apartment in Provo Utah on April 19th 2018. I had a degree burn. I had a second degree burn injury but and it healed somewhere around late May and early June or something. I still have scar and not that bad looking even. I still managed to kill the flames at point blank range with baking soda. Yes I used baking soda. I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT USE ANY WATER! I repeat I DID NOT use any water and was smart not to do that as that is the worse thing anyone can do in a grease fire.
Sodium bicarbonate can be used to extinguish small grease or electrical fires by being thrown over the fire, as heating of sodium bicarbonate releases carbon dioxide.[25] However, it should not be applied to fires in deep fryers; the sudden release of gas may cause the grease to splatter.[25] Sodium bicarbonate is used in BC dry chemical fire extinguishers as an alternative to the more corrosive diammonium phosphate in ABC extinguishers. The alkaline nature of sodium bicarbonate makes it the only dry chemical agent, besides Purple-K, that was used in large-scale fire suppression systems installed in commercial kitchens. Because it can act as an alkali, the agent has a mild saponification effect on hot grease, which forms a smothering, soapy foam.
@@wiretamer5710 Ok, but us enlightened folk don't use class B agents for grease fires anymore. Class K agents work best because they found out that most kitchen fires are completely different from class B fires.
Not a firefighter, but damn this is interesting stuff!
does anybody know, at the 4 minute mark, he talks about a delayed flashover, doesnt this sound like a smoke explosion?
Yes, it does sound more like a smoke explosion. It almost seems as if they are attempting to create new terminology.
Only because the environment outside the fire room is relatively cooler than in there. And they mention in other videos that smoke explosions don't need high temperature compartments
I knew I wasn't the only one
i have been watching department an one thing i see is the fighters are not dressed to fight when i was on the Saginaw mi when we arrived the chief expected us to have helmet an air on to attach
who is alive during these conditions, is my question. who do you save in multi hundred if not over 1k degree situations?
Well if a room isn't compromised there can still be living occupants in it.
Once a flasher occurs, if the space is occupied, it instantly goes from a rescue effort to a recovery effort. A room flashes, it is not a survivable environment for anyone not in PPE.
No one. Which is why we evolved UK firefighting to put risk v gain first. And even a room flashing is not survivable even in Ppe.
It's awesome, and it was eight years ago!!! Too late to see
Informative.
Some is good stuff here, but there are also a LOT of inaccuracies. Frustrating to see some of the misinformation and oversimplification here.
No disrespect, just interested. Can you elaborate on some inaccuracies?
me gustaria que alguien lo pudiera traducir a español..
Froylan, buenas noches, estoy traduciendo el pdf de este video, hay muy buena información, en cuanto lo termine con gusto lo podría compartir.
@@luisortizmgirg6248 pudo?
What song is used ?
+Scott Liebenberg The song was created for the Disney movie "Million Dollar Arm" but the scene where the song was played got cut out the movie. That is all the info we have. Thank you.
Hi Scott: radiantlifeperspective.bandcamp.com/album/bells-and-whistles
Maybe it doesnt make sense to ventilate at all.
Why not have some kind of mobile chamber to place in front of doors so you can maintain a seal.
Open chamber door, enter the chamber, close chamber door, open door to main structure and enter.
This way you can make entry while also adding minimal oxygen.
Build it out of like 1/2" plexiglass and mount the whole thing on the back of an f250 with a little hydraulic lift.
Use sandbags to level out the ground if needed and duct tape to get as good a seal as possible to the building.
Realistically, as long as you rate it for load capacity, you dont even need to sandbag it just use the crane to keep it pressed against the building.
You could even have built in attack lines plumbed right into the chamber on hose reals so you don't have to mess around.
Or, a curtain with a fixing bar, like a pull up bar design with a curtain hanging below that hose and Crews can pass underneath. We now have those here in the uk.
you can't cool hot fire gases with a direct stream of your nozzle, it wont cool the gases cause the water particles aren't scattered. direct streams of water will only hit the ceiling and wont make the desirable effect, and if you push too much on the stream, steam created from it will just boil you...
+Cris Can I agree. if 1 is the hardest/most direct nozzle and 10 is the fog you should cool the gases with a 3-4 nozzle, at least thats how I was taught :)
+Timi116 i would say maybe a 5 but it depends on the perspective. but yes thats the acceptable, but we're not all taught the same way
Cris Can exactly, and every situation is different, no 2 fires have the same characteristics. You definitely don't want to use the hardest and most direct nozzle though :)
the purpose of hitting the ceiling is to create a sprinker effect...if you use full fog,,it will just evaporate before it can cool it.
Exactly Francis, straight stream is the way to go. The ceiling will create a sprinkler affect. And using them in small burst. Lets trust the training and science please. Don't listen to these false principles by Cris.
Conoscere i rischi del nostro mestiere ci peette di agire meglio e rischiare meno.Peccato che in Italia gli investimenti sugli addestramenti sono ridotti al lumicino.....Preverranno il rischio con qualche altra assurda direttiva!😣😣😣
I think "critical mass" is a term that may prove useful with this topic.
Makes me cringe seeing someone open and close that line so quickly, that is very bad. Water hammer to come
+firefighter9148 true...its not good to water pumps, but new hose lines with new diameters no longer create pressure differences on the hose line and water pumps. open and close that line so quickly is a vital need in a flashover control.
Skip the open close. Bounce it off the roof frequently, that will get the spray to suck the heat down. When the droplets stop coming from the ceiling soak the upper area again. Cool your way to the red stuff.
Comment
I couldn't get through a few minutes of this. This is not brain surgery. A fire room is most likely to have windows. A 360 will most likely find the fire room. The room is full of hot, flammable gasses and so are adjacent rooms and hallways. You bring a booster line connected to Tank Water to those windows, break the windows and immediately soak the burning material. Everything vents out the windows and the threat of flashover anywhere in the structure is over. Within one minute of arrival and Long before an entry team can be assembled, get fully dressed and get the front door open, the victims and the entering fire fighters are protected. Now I know going into a safe house is less fun than a burning house but eliminating the threat is your JOB! End of training!
JB91710 STFU
My question is, at what point do you risk your life? I know its situation by situation, and use your common sense. But if I'm worried about all these things, what is the likelihood I'm going to save anyone in the building or room I'm entering? I'm new, but I'm not doing this job to have stories. I want to help people and survive. if i have full PPE and it's already hot AF, am I going to actually get out of there? Because someones brick and mortar can kiss my ass....I don't want to risk my life over someones precious house or building...
get in a different line of work then...
I don’t think you get my point
@John Cocca i'd agree with you..