Dust storms on the Moon? For All Mankind: scientifically accurate? Apple TV+ show | Spoilers!
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- Опубліковано 19 лют 2021
- Apple TV+ just released the first episode of the second season of For All Mankind, an amazing look into an alternate history of the Space Race between the US and Soviet Union from the 1960s to the 1980s. In the end of season 2 episode 1 we see a truly startling phenomenon: a dust storm on the moon! But is this scientifically accurate? Watch the video, and let me know your thoughts in the comments section below! 🚀 🌙
Space weathering on the Moon: Farside-nearside solar wind precipitation asymmetry:
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
NASA predicts Leaping Lunar Dust:
www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsyst...
History of geomagnetic storms:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
For All Mankind trailer for season 2:
• For All Mankind - Seas...
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Criminally underrated show.
The starting butterfly effect was that Sergei Korolev didn't die from gastric surgery and or stomach cancer in 1966. It's unclear how he died as his health was failing due to his time as a prisoner in the Gulag camps in the late 30's to 40's. Korolev was largely responsible for most of the Soviet achievements early on. Though in reality it's unlikely that his leadership would have gotten the N-1 to work with all it's faults but that's how the lore has the Soviets make it to the moon. Also for some reason Brezhnev who wasn't a fan of the space program like Kruschev decides to continue spending large sums on it. This is another serious departure from what Brezhnev ended up doing. He was more into building up the military and the soviet nuclear arsenal to match and exceed the US.
Not to mention the US had already gotten ahead in the space race by the time Korolev died. Still a cool show though
it wasn't just leadership he was an actual rocket scientist responsible for most of the soviet space successes. so he could have figured out how to make the N1 work
my head cannon is that the actual vehicle that landed cosmonauts on the moon was the N-2, since we see the N-3 developed but not the N-2. maybe the americans didn't realize the N-1 had been replaced by the N-2
Physicist with a degree in astrophysics as well here - there would not be anything like we saw in the scene - as nothing coming from the Sun can make those patterns. What DOES happen on the far side when the Moon passes through the magnetotail, is dust levitation. Very fine dust haze due to the electrostatic field. It raises into the thin exosphere from the surface of the Moon. But you would NOT get those shapes, waves and what not, especially not those small spikes and large columns in the distance, there is no field or effect that would create them.
As for the storm itself - 30% of c... that is some monster storm that I don't think that the Sun can even produce. Plus, we saw the mass ejection being perpendicular to the viewing point of Skylab (in orbit around Earth), which means that the Earth would intercept the storm's trajectory in 3 months :) If it was going straight towards Earth, like in the show, we would not see an arch on the side - it would be dead center on the sun's disc.
That scene was nice to watch but it was scientifically totally incorrect.
Think of it this way - the Moon was blasted with mass ejections for billions of years. If ANYTHING was able to create such an effect, we'd be seeing those forms and patterns in lunar regolith at least somewhere. But we don't. Because it does not happen that way. With strong storms, it rises a bit like the mist, due to the charge, and falls back down. There are no patterns, spikes, columns, waves and so on.
Awesome answer. Also noticed the perpendicular shot of the corona mass, but thought: "ok, it's minor, and creative, so I'm fine with it", but when they showed they 'waves', and 'spikes' on the moon I had to stop and look for an answers, thought I'll find it here, but it's just generating more questions. Also the author claims alpha particles are neutral, where they are positively charged in fact. Nice video though, but it's disinformation IMO.
My non-scientifically educated brain went: Looks cool, fine dust, low gravity, no magnetic field, charged particles. Seems 'plausible enough'. I was sure they took major artistic license here. I just saw that episode a few mins ago and went looking into how far they stretched it. Glad to find your answer here. Also noticed that ejection being wat too big and and fast, and in the wrong direction, that made the whole setup weak but the execution was very dramatic.
You marry all three of my interests: history, linguistics, and, now, astronomy! And, let us not forget that you sing in Latin! Truly a Renaissance man has been given to us 🙌 🙌
Thanks, my friend!
I can't do a quarter of what he does. Amazing. Truly a renaissance man.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but since alpha particles are Helium nuclei they consist of two neutrons and two protons. Thus they've gotta be positively charged, don't they?
Whoops! You’re totally right. My mistake. Thanks!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Also the dust on the surface of the Moon is getting positively charged because of the high energy photons (EM radiation) coming from the Sun. So the ion storm from the Sun would magnify the already ongoing effect; from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect#Moon_dust : "Light from the Sun hitting lunar dust causes it to become positively charged from the photoelectric effect. The charged dust then repels itself and lifts off the surface of the Moon by electrostatic levitation.This manifests itself almost like an "atmosphere of dust", visible as a thin haze and blurring of distant features, and visible as a dim glow after the sun has set. This was first photographed by the Surveyor program probes in the 1960s. It is thought that the smallest particles are repelled kilometers from the surface and that the particles move in "fountains" as they charge and discharge. " links are in the wiki text, I am adding this: www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/features/2010/lhg.html , paper: www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/486013main_Stubbs.pdf and this on proton solar particle event (SPE) : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_particle_event
@@AngelosPapadopoulos314159 yup, when I saw that scene I immediately realised what was going on - and was seriously impressed by the show runners (not seen the rest of it, only clips). Note that the scene takes place near sunrise/sunset when there's most likely to be disturbance. At the poles, electrical breakdown in the icy, shadowed craters could cause visible arcing across the ground. And another phenomenon is visible flashes of Cherenkov radiation in the eyeballs. With >100MeV protons, you might even see those in bright light with eyes open...
polýMATHY: Come for the Koiné Greek aorists, stay for the astronomy.
Haha thanks!! 😃 Delighted to have you here.
can i get scott manley
mom: we have scott manley at home
scott manley at home:
Haha
I wondered if ducking behind one of those boulders casting a deep shadow would be better than full exposure getting back to the lava tube.
Truly fascinating! I look forward to input from heliophysicists
As do I!
If it looked anything like that then the dust on the moon would be arranged in frozen waves like you see in the sand on a dry riverbed. It would be dropped that way as the flow of particles stopped in the same way the particles of sand in a riverbed are dropped in that pattern when the river slows and dries up. But you don't see those patterns on the moon. It's just flat dust.
That’s a very good point!
Yeah, but this was a rare event so, doesn't that count for something?
@@kobby2g8 Rare event in human terms and cosmological terms are two completely different things. The moon is billions of years old, and the only significant event contributing to the formation and arrangement of moon dust is impact events. There have been billions of impacts on the moon large enough to kick some dust around, but only a few tens of thousands big enough to change the arrangement of dust over a notable percentage of the moon's surface.
A storm like the one visually depicted in the show, moving large amounts of dust over the entire sun facing surface of the moon, would have to be rare to within a few orders of magnitude of a once per millions of years event to not leave obvious traces all over the place. The storm being depicted in the show is closer to a once a century event. The depiction simply uses visual elements because it's really hard to communicate the significance of a dangerous event to the general audience if it's completely invisible.
The calmest, most collected nerd/geek-out moment ever recorded on UA-cam! Were it me, I'd have probably been enthusiastically screaming and yelling back and forth in front of the camera like a 80's muppet sketch. Thanks for the heads up. I'll put the show on my to-watch list.
Hahahaha. You're so kind! Gosh the show is soooo good. The cinemetography and storytelling is top tier.
in another timeline: space exploration has grinded to a halt in the 21 century. "what if we made a tv show about an eccentric billionaire named elon musk who made self landing rockets and sold flamethrowers?"
His engineers are more heroic than the tony stark wannabe, the true MVP's of the modern space age.
As a physicist myself I was immediately skeptical - not just of the leaping dust - but about the radiation absorbed doses/rates claimed in the show. So I talked to a fellow astronomer and we napkin calculated, in an unpredecentedly high CME's proton flux, assuming 100% energy conversion and absorption into tissue, the max dose rate is around 0.2 Gy/h. Clearly you don't want to hang out there too much but this is absolute max, add in the modicum of shielding, linear attenuation coefficient and everything else a realistic dose rate even with an extreme CME event is probably 10% of that.
Compared to this, the show claimed that the exposed astronaut's dosimeter red 200 rem (2 Sv). In ~ 2 and a half hours there is just no way. Also, at that dose he should've been showing typical ARS symptoms which in the show he didn't.
It really looks like even shows that take as hard-sci-fi approach as possible tend to treat radiation a little less rigorously... I guess it makes for good drama.
You are awesome I googled and googled looking for something to tell me whether that radiation + lunar sand dance was realistic or not. Found nothing.... immediately digestible at least.
Until this video. Great job man!
Subbing.
Can’t believe I found your channel looking for info on this show I was a CAP cadet in Japan years back and remember you from that time.
McDougall!! Hey!! It’s great to hear from you! I remember you to of course! How’s it going? What are you up to? I’m currently a UH60 driver in the NYARNG. You?
@@polyMATHY_Luke Great to hear from you as well! I’m a C-17 loadmaster out of McChord these days myself.
You do show and science reviews too!? Man this channel is full of surprises!
Thanks! Yeah, for now I’m going to keep on language stuff since this seems to internet my current community. I’ll expand later this year.
Watched the episode a few days ago. Great episode, but one thing bothered me.
I am not sure the timeline is possible.
At 1/3 speed of light, it will take the ejection about 25 minutes to hit the moon.
But it will take any information that this it taking place 8 minutes or so to reach the Earth (even if it hit a station on Mercury we will only learn about it about 5 minutes later).
Yeah, in the show the proton flux also hits Earth conveniently way earlier (I think it's almost a minute) than the Moon, adding to the drama of "get ready for it to hit the Moon next"; which makes no sense since it should be 4 seconds maximum, and the Sun and Moon aren't even at opposition when it takes place.
An alpha particle is positively charged with charge +2.
Neutrons are neutral (no charge).
A proton has charge +1.
An electron has charge -1.
Just finished season 2 and oh man this is good stuff. Looooved it!
Yeah I really loved the season finale! Looking forward to Mars. 🚀
@@polyMATHY_Luke me too!
Thanks for this. I had the samd reaction as a space engineer. I think its plausible that z really a powerful proton storm could kick up dust with electrostatic forces, but it would have to be one hell of a storm. One that would knock out most satellites. And most likely kill any exposed astronauts in a short period of time.
Absolutely! That seems to be what they depicted
it did knock out a lot of sats on both the US and soviet side hence why Defcon 3 was implemented
A cool thing that just hit me right now. They named that episode "Every little thing". Obviously referring to all those little particles that's gonna kill them :)
Ahhhh very good!!
isnt it just because the lyrics of the song wich is sung by the astronauts?
@@aaromat That too. It's a beautiful irony, if you ask me.
Just one question though... They said that the radiation is moving at 30% Speed of light but in the scene its shown moving very slowly... So is it a cinematic effect that the moon dust is moving slowly or some other interaction from the earth/moon/sun (like gravity or magnetism) slowed down the radiation wave?
The latter for the moon dust.
But the screens depict the wave going waaaay too slow
I’m not a Heliophysicist but I am a trainee astrophysicist. I’m my estimations, it seems reasonable that maybe some combined affect of charge interactions and momentous effects from the massive and fast solar material (protons) could scatter the lunar surface. With regards to the actual shape of the waves I’m not sure, it seems they were implying very intense electromagnetic interaction. Hopefully the Heliophysicists will tell us more!
Well done and very interesting. But what I did find pretty inaccurate, more like inconsistent actually, is how astronauts move slower and can jump higher while they're outside the lunar base, but inside the base they move normally.
That’s a good point! This appears to be a practical limitation of filming. I also notice it on The Expanse.
I’m watching S1E5 right now :-). Have just started!
They must have some really impressive scientific advisers working on this show
I'm just really curious to see the results of latest Mars atmosphere analysis and see if they can understand how its chemical elements get scattered into outer space.
That's a really interesting question! The isotopic fractionation has been studied by the MAVEN probe: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAVEN
I haven't ready any papers though lately.
I've just made the decision to go and watch the show some time down the line.
It can create a shower of secondary particles that are visible to the naked eye but those would be in the ground so not visible...
The Dust Side Of The Moon. 😄
Haha yes!
I came for the Romance language but I love the branching out into all that’s interesting!
Thanks! I’m glad you’re enjoying it!
You're on fire these days!
Trying to keep up with all the cool stuff! 😅
Great vid. The big question I had was, would dragging someone on your back prove such a chore given the moon’s gravity. Any ideas?
Well, even in Moon's gravity, carrying your own weight + the weight of the space suit + another person in space suit must not be a trivial task. The moon EVA suits used to weigh up to 80kgs. Add another 80kgs of the astronaut inside and it's 160 kgs of mass. On the Moon it would amount to 160kgs /6 = ~30kgs. It's feasible to carry them on your back but not that easy for a long walk, I suppose. I play the bass and my previous rig weighed ~25 kgs and I remember that carrying it for just a few meters from the car to the stage was a real bitch!
They addressed this in their first podcast episode. I believe they exaggerated the effect a little bit
oh, my God. It does look good. I never watch TV any longer. I've always been heart-broken that we didn't establish bases on the moon. I wanted to see mankind reach for the stars by the end of my life. I won't see that now. I'm nearly 70. Too SAD! I never thought about what would have happened if we had found Soviets on the moon, ---- how that would have challenged us and caused us to make different decisions.. Someone put a lot of thought into that program.
I think you will! The Artemis program is in full swing, and American astronauts will be on the Moon in a few years.
Sorry to disappoint but I doubt mankind will ever reach the stars, the nearest one would take light 4.26 years to reach it from earth or vice verse. At least 1700 years by our fastest spacecraft. But we are creating better technology that allows us to better study them, such as the recent picture of a black hole.
@@abelpalmer552 I do not believe we can say that quite yet. I am still optimistic that we way learn some little bit of physics that will either make faster than light possible or find a way around the light speed limit. We aren't as knowledgeable as we think. We are like the people of the Middle Ages believing that only witches, birds and angels could fly. Or the people of 1900 who thought man couldn't possibly travel faster than a horse can run. We don't know, yet, what is possible.
Don't assume. Keep exploring.
@@kathleenhensley5951 as someone who studies physics full time and knows the equations behind what makes faster than light travel impossible, I can quite surely say we will not find an economical or beneficial or frankly any reason that would be worth it to reach the stars in any sooner than 2 thousand years, by which time (a spaceship sent now would only then have arrived at Proxima Centauri) humanity probably will have destroyed itself. Comparing ourselves to the people of the Middle Ages is not quite an apt comparison, because math is behind this, not speculation. You speak about "finding ways around the speed limit" as if, forgive me, you don't really understand how this works. It's not an annoying law, it's literally a reality that is woven into the fabric of this universe. I'd recommend you watch this video. Hope this helps! m.ua-cam.com/video/WnLJoeBE_BM/v-deo.html
@@abelpalmer552 I admire your skills in math. I can barely do the math involved involved in sewing and weaving. I know I may be wrong, but I want to maintain this hope that we aren't condemned to just one solar system for the rest of mankind's existence. If we are, I hope someday a generation will come along that has the shear balls/courage to, at least, explore the entire solar system.
I disagree, I think we are just like the people of the Middle Ages, we think we know everything and we really know very little, and even with all our science and math, we are still at the very beginning of the scientific era. 421 yrs ago they burnt a man for just suggesting that the sun went around the earth. 421 yrs ago? It is not even a blink of cosmic eye.
I think that if we accept the speed of light as the final limit of mankind's progress we are making a mistake. We should, at least, TRY.
I entirely accept that I am not a scientist, I am a dreamer of dreams, but we need to try... keep doing the math, keep building ships and exploratory drones, Keep working on all possible avenues of escape, fill chalk boards with mathematical equations, then, if we are condemned to the prison of one solar system, we can rest(at least!) easy that we did everything we could to escape.
We have to Try.
Very cool effect, but it can't possibly be that strong. We can know that for sure, because if such events happen every few decades, Moon craters would erode away. Yet the Moon has craters of all sizes and ages.
maybe the charged particles could be considered an electric current and there would be a magnetic field perpendicular that might kick up charged regolith grains in to those waves
While I’m a fan of the show, yet I have some observations about its accuracy. Example: the speed with with the technologies developed over the shows timeline, and how such developments were financed (by both the US and the USSR)? Also, astronauts inside Jamestown appear to move normally as if they were on Earth, but once outside the station in their spacesuits they start hopping around - a la the astronauts in the actual Apollo recordings. Speaking of which, that stuff about the makeshift spacesuits in the season finale?
That's true, but there are some scenes in Jamestown when the lower gravity is evident, like when they throw objects at each other or someone decides to violently lift a person against the ceiling.
you should watch The Expanse!
I adore the Expanse
I enjoy the series, but I have never heard of even a theory that solar ejecta would physically disturb the lunar regolith like was shown in the episode. Our sun flares all the time, and there's no such patterning anywhere on the surface of the moon. But I just heave an impatient sigh, and shove that un-science into the same bag as "no lightspeed delay in videophone calls." It's a TV show, after all. And solar waves or not, the hard radiation would still be a death sentence for our astronaut characters. Thanks for addressing this - it bugged me as soon as I saw it!
that intro is from the beginning of Beethoven's 5h piano concerto ?
The intro and outro music are from Mozart’s The Magic Flute overture 😊
Love to watch it. Unfortunately I'd have to buy another widget or gadget, not happening.
If that could happen, I assume it would have happened several times already, isn't there a saying that the footprints of the astronauts would last for thousands of years? that's even the premise of Edward Baldwing writing his son's name onto the Lunar dust, if that happens with any regularity, we wouldn't be seeing features hundreds of thousands of years old still on the surface of the Moon today, right?
You forgot to mention the point of Divergence for this universe; Sergei Korolev lived, and didn't die on the operating table, and hence was able to keep the snake pit that was any Soviet program working together instead of the individual teams trying to one up each other and otherwise screw their rivals.
I’m well aware of that point of divergence. I enjoy the show. I wish it focused a bit more on the exploration and technological advancement instead of the interpersonal relationships. I like both of these things, but they need a few more science consultants, since so much of the adventure is in the “how the heck do you land people on Mars?” etc
@@polyMATHY_Luke I was more interested in how exactly they were going to get to mars because chemical Rockets like Helios is using seems a little bit odd when apparently nerva technology has been widespread for at least the past 10 years.
AFAIK the "For All Mankind" timeline was created by one single change: Sergei Pawlowitsch Koroljow, the equicalent to Wernher von Braun for the sovjet space program, survived his operation in 1966 and was able to bring the program to sucess.
But an solar event like this should not have happened, because it did not happen in our timeline. At least I don`t see how earths history could influence a solar event.
If you like this you'll love the scientific accuracy of the expanse.
Some parts are good yes (gravity with acceleration etc) but many other plot device science magics are ridiculous e.g. 'Rotating' asteroids and dwarf planets like Ceres to get artificial gravity inside them? Ceres is essentially a pile of gravel, it would become a cloud of gravel at far less than -0.2g or whatever they spun it up to.
Also the Expanses main drive tech is very unfortunately named (now), but yea it's a great show.
Luke, if a solar storm like that ever hits the moon, the astronaut's boot prints would no longer be preserved on the surface. I've read somewhere that they'll still be there after millions of years. Cheers!
I'll go bathe in the Chernobyl reactor core to clean off the radiation from the CME.
While we are discussing this episode, I was surprised how hard it was portrayed for Molly to carry that other astronaut. From my googling, an average man in a spacesuit should weigh approx. 60 pounds on the Moon, e.g. 27 kg. Which is a weight of an 8-9 y.o. kid. Or one and a half 4-gallon (18.9 L) bottle of water. I think it's a weight of a normal tourist or military backpack, which astronauts should be trained to carry. But in the show it was displayed like she was carrying him at 1G. Did they forget about 1/6G or what? :)
There's also the weight of her own suit which you have to factor in.
@@kenmayes1932 That's about 30 lbs or 13.5 kg, but they are distributed throughout the body, so it feels easier than just adding that as a single external object to carry. But even that gives a total of 90 lbs or 40.5 kg, which is a tiny girl at 1G :)) I still think it was exaggerated for the show.
Alpha particles are not neutrally charged. They are helium neuclei, without the electrons, which makes them positively charged.
What? But there is no Latin or Greek in this series! I never knew you also did scientific videos!
Indeed! I’ll do more, if my subscribers tolerate it. 😊 I discovered with this video that UA-cam won’t show a science video to viewers outside of my subscribers unless my subscribers watch them first. Which is a shame.
I just wander, but I think a world like this would be filled with war rather than space exploration. I mean just think what could you do when you would have computers in 70’s...
Right, and that’s part of the plot of the show
@@polyMATHY_Luke Then it’s sounds way more interesting than I originally thought.
They had computers in the 1970s, just not for the masses. I saw my first microcomputers in 1976-77. We used to go to computer meetings filled with Langley air-force (base) scientists. They were hand wiring their own computers. I still have my husband's collection of tools though he never hand-wired more than a small motherboard. I even have some basic first generation chips.
By 1978-79 we owned our first apple 2. (I'm no longer sure about exact dates.)
@@kathleenhensley5951 interesting, I thought that only military had those and that they were some kind of a “super technology” or “wunderwaffe” in an American army. Good to know
many people say the Neil Armstrong's foot print will stay on the moon for thousands of years
so does this proves that the foot prints didn't even last a decade?
Hanc seriem nesciēbam, oportet mē quam prīmum spectāre.
BTW how come there are so few views to this show? Where are all the smart people of the Earth?...Silence....
No clue. YT algorithm
I would question the 'lava tubes' concept, as seen in this video, the moon and sun have opposite electrical charges and such lava tubes could be more likely to be the result of electrical discharges in the remote past than the result of volcanic activity. Even lunar craters can also be the result of electrical discharges since the absolute majority has the characteristic of a 90 degree impact, something unlikely to happen with asteroids hitting the moon from random angles.
Astrophysicists are slowly recognizing the influence of electromagnetism in the universe and some paradigms should be challenged.
can you cite a source for pretty much everything you said?
@@lEGOBOT2565 Watch Anton videos.
@@DomingosCJM not a good enough source
@@lEGOBOT2565 New video as a source:
ua-cam.com/video/bK57JJ5MMCA/v-deo.html
Alpha particles are positive not neutral. They have a charge of +2, 2 neutrons and 2 protons.
Yup
United States = Rome
Soviet Union = Carthage
Scientific accuracy is not a reason to watch this show. Even if they did a good job here (which I can’t comment on either way), they’re generally very poor at it. I am enjoying the show. (And I do appreciate any science-fiction that stays within the Solar system.) But I enjoy it in spite of the scientific inaccuracy. It also feels like the alternate history parts aren’t as much about what might have changed if the Soviets landed on the moon first but rather just an excuse to make up any random change they want.
I have zero interest in science fiction and will not be watching the show so the spoiler alert was unneccessary for me. First of all, a youtuber to youtuber collaboration with Dr Becky Smethhurst (phd astrophysics) is almost guaranteed to end well if you really want to know. I have a science background and a University education and my physics is pretty decent compared to average. Alpha particles are positively charged, but dust is not. The charge from the nucleus is neutralised by the charge from the electron shells surrounding the nucleus. Magnetic pulling is not plausable. Some random movement (weathering) would occur, but dancing waves is suspicious.
Alpha particles aren’t neutral, they’re positive.
Yes I am aware
"This show is known for its scientific accuracy"
Haha, not even close
Not remotely accurate though
Ugh. First four minutes all filler. Skip it to get what you actually came here for. Sheesh!