They won't, they have very poor manufacturing practices, pay very little to their employees, thus have lots of personal rotation, also use lots of badly made Chinese water heaters, light fixtures, furnaces...etc
Completely agree. The only way to buy an RV is get a used one, thoroughly inspected by someone who knows and cares what they're doing, realizing that there is no such thing as a warranty, and the buyer is willing to do ALL of the future repairs....at their own expense and/or time. This is how we mentally went into buying a 2019 5th wheel. Only two types of people should be buying RVs: 1. Those who can do all of electrical work, hvac work, cosmetic repairs, roofing, welding, appliance repair or replacements, etc.,ect. OR 2. People who have lots and lots of disposable income to hire other people who can.
Imagine if you bought a Ford F150 and a wheel bearing went in the first couple of weeks and Ford told you you had to go to Tinkham Bearing Company and get them to fix it. Automobiles are also built from thousands of parts from all over the world and the manufacturer who puts all the parts together stands behind the finished product.
It’s not an RV industry problem the problem is Made in the USA… Forde recalls every car nowadays, quality problem after quality problem. And what is about Boeing???
I guess my first thought is, if I am buying from Dealer X, is Dealer X a authorized Brand A dealership. If so, then there should never be a problem getting anything on Brand A repaired at Dealer X. If I bought Brand B from Dealer X and X is not an authorized seller of B, it's my option to buy it there but the Dealer Y down the road who is an Authorized Dealer for B should be able to fix Brand B for me no problem. Weather I pay for it or it's a warranty fix. Now Brands should have their warranty system setup and clear that if it's a used unit, I don't care used 2024 and were in 2024, that it's transferable warranty or not. If it's not transferrable, great, I own a 2024 in 2024 with no warranty. But I should be made clear of that by the manufacturer Brand website or by the Auth Dealer X that I'm buying from.....but I understand if Dealer Y who isn't this Brands AD, don't need to tell me shit. But I would assume Dealer Y is gonna nickel and dime me for some type of extended warranty anyways, so there's that
@@freedomisnotnegotiablenot at all true. What about everytime a tool breaks and you look and says Made in China. Then you complain about cheap Chinese crap. Or go on to Wish and see an amazing deal for something and knowing damn well it's crap from China too. Toyota recalls vehicles, Kia/Hyundai are under recalls with easily being stolen, Range Rovers you can steal with a $20 device and a blank key fob which they are soon to be recalled for reprogramming security protocol, VW had to be recalled due to emissions non-compliance. Every brand mentioned made not in the USA. So it's disingenuous to say Made In USA equals poorly made
My husband and I always joke about replacing our 2018 Kodiak Ultimate, but then we see all the problems that people are having with newer RVs and trailers, and we decide against it! Thanks for all the great info you provide, very much appreciated.
I feel the same about our 2000 Holiday Rambler. We have replaced a lot of the issues with it and despite its age and it has a few quirks. But it’s still better than 75% of the new garbage on the road.
We had purchased a new 2012 Heartland Big horn 3610 R 5th wheel. We were told how good the quality was . Nothing but a piece of junk. We suffered with it for 4 years. The warranty meant nothing. We got our butt handed to us and sold it for half of what we paid for it. NEVER EVER AGAIN.
Funny thing about Grand Design, we were looking at their trailers about three years ago and noticed huge I mean huge variation in the actual sticker unloaded weight vs that reported on the web site for that specific model. Worst yet the unit to unit variability for the exact same model we saw at dealer's lots was in the range of 7% so one unit of the same model had a sticker of 4400lb and another unit of the same model trailer with the exact same equipment had a sticker of 4800lb. We reached out to GD knowing they had a pretty good QC in place, or so it was advertised, and asked about the reason for why there is literally ~400lb of stuff missing between the same trailers. We exchanged a few emails as I was starting to have doubts about the QC. After exchanging a few emails and asking a very pointed question about QC and SOPs I stopped receiving any further responses. What I got a sense of is that the GD at the time ,in the process to do QC at the back end of the manufacturing process, would test all tanks for leaks by filling them full. That was followed by weighing the units to get that official UVW that goes on the yellow sticker. But it seems they would randomly forget to drain the tanks first or maybe weight it while the tanks were still draining due to things being rushed. When I suggested this is a problem since the yellow sticker is the official and moreover legal weight that dictates the Cargo capacity (CCC) of the trailer and may be a litigation issue when it comes to any future accident with the unit on the highway I got a complete silence in return... Turned me off GD completely and we purchased another manufacturer's trailer instead.
When we purchased our travel trailer, I went thru and crossed off each one of those warranty releases. The dealer (not CW) said I couldn't do that. I told them if they want to sell me the unit, then they had to accept my refusal of warranty releases. The dealer accepted it, signed off on the paperwork and gave me copies of the signed paperwork. We are a few years out of warranty, but while in warranty, the trailer builder refused a warranty issue, but when the dealer sent them a copy of the paperwork (which their rep also signed off on a few days after I had signed or the sale was void), and the builder honored the warranty. It can be done as the buyer is in the driver's seat if the dealer wants to make a sale. It was a cash sale and I was ready to rip up the check.
Comical. Was it cold, hard cash? Dealer must have made a healthy profit to deal with such a great negotiator like yourself. Crossing off warranty releases isn't a thing and doesn't make it invalid.
Awesome reporting on tough times in the RV industry. We are Lance truck camper owners and thoroughly enjoy your channel. What’s happening in the RV world reminds me of the American auto industry cranking out some really poor product in the late 70’s and early 80’s. There were some major changes that were made and in the long run the consumers came out on top with vehicles that are far superior today. Keep up the great work! We’ll be watching!
Thanks Jason and Abby, well done. If all the people who want to buy a brand new RV just put it off for a year, year and a half maybe the dealers and manufacturers would get the message. The message being we're not buying anything until you put the consumer first.
Thanks for the great update as usual. I really appreciate how you always try to explain both sides of the issue, while we all may have our own biases, you always come across fair and balanced in your analysis. I also appreciate that despite what one side says over another, I also appreciate you always remind everyone to not forget the end user - the consumer!
When we went looking to buy an RV, we went to 3 different dealers. They all had models on the lot that were so cheaply made things were broken on almost every display model, and they wanted more than we paid for our first home. We were encouraged by friends to look at older models as they were better quality and in better shape than brand new. We decided to walk away altogether. RV's are money pits. We may end up DIY our own van in the near future since my husband has a lot of remodel experience and I like to design.
I just love how you casually throw around the word "engineer" as a verb, to describe what these RV manufacturers do. I guess it sounds better than "slap together".
As a degreed, licensed and practicing engineer, it irritates me as there is nothing truly "engineered" in the towable industry. The right word is "assembled."
Yes we feel the same way, we down sized to a 22 Ft. Mini lite this past year, Big RV's especially ones with motors and generators = a lot more maintenance and potential issues!
Happy enough with our Geopro. Few new trailer issues like doors coming apart because of plastic corner clips. That’s unacceptable but easily fixed with real hardware. Solidly built and fun first TT in my entire family. Survived the road trip out west. Worth it!
Make crappy rvs and sooner or later it'll catch up. With UA-cam it caught up even faster. Especially with how grand design responded on the horrible plumbing they do and how they aren't going to change because it's not affecting them.
For inspection and engineering purposes, I refer to them as Grand OSB Design. Any mechanical engineer, especially with experience in building envelope, would take one look at their design on their factory tour and their claims for "marine OSB" (which literally doesn't exist) and refuse to give them a dime. And they are supposed to be the good part of the industry...
What a fair analysis of so many issues. I enjoy Lehto also and saw that last week. I’m also following several people with “Frame Failure” problems, including the ones you flashed on the screen. Enjoyed meeting you at KC show. We spoke briefly before your first program before I plopped down on the front row to enjoy it. Thanks so much for the information you give us.
Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to research and put these videos together! The quality is unmatched and I hope everyone realizes how much work these are!
After listening to you speak and here everything that is going on, I will never buy an RV or a trailer. The funny part about it is, I'm ready to retire and that is what I was going to do, Buy an RV or travel trailer, not any longer!!!
Don’t be so negative. There are plenty of good opportunities out there. Look for a good two or three year old coach from one of the top manufacturers, like Tiffin or Newmar, have it looked at by a certified inspector, and be on your way. I think the best advice is not to buy new, mostly because of price, and the fact that used units have usually had the bugs worked out. And take your time, don’t buy the first thing that comes along.
Grand Design is an example of how a brand can go downhills really quickly. Grand Design quality and customer service has been slowly stepping down ever since they were sold to Winnebago. Additionally almost all of their floor plans are copies off of other brands, which is common in the industry, but it shows their lack of interest in innovation.
Sir you are welcome to feel the way you want. But i just retired and bought a new 5th wheel Because i know my time is limited { and so is yours } I will take my chances on traveling knowing every RV ever built will need maintenance and some repairs i personal would rather travel and see America in our closing days Than be on my Death Bed wish i had just HMO
The RV industry needs to stop it with the smoke and mirrors of selling the same RV under 2 different "brands". Its confusing and frustrating for consumers. I know WHY they do it but they need to stop. Consumers are smarter and more well researched than ever before and are not tolerant of being bamboozled in such a way.
We went to an RV show in Wichita Ks recently and got to see some of the frames on the grand design trailers vs the tongue frames on another brand and the tongue dimensions were visibly smaller, perhaps explaining a lot of the flex and breaking issues with grand design frames. The RVs themselves were beautiful but that doesn't count for much if you cannot pull them down the road safely!
It wasn't long after we purchased our 2017 Keystone Avalanche that we started reading about cracking in the Filon siding in the Keystone RV forum. It was mostly occurring around the bedroom slide from the lower left to the front of the RV. Keystone eventually sent out copies of repair proceedures to the dealers (I have a copy) for those units brought in with the problem. It turns out that it's mainly a failure in welds on the Lippert frame that causes the issue. I would not be surprised if the same problem in the Grand Design units since many of the RV frames are made by Lippert. One thing I would really like to see is some sort of consumer protections for RV owners but it seems like every time something tries to get started, the RVIA and RV dealers squash it. Can't imagine why 😋
I LOVE state parks and I visited and stayed in multiple state and privately owned parks just last year. I gotta say … the state park cgs wer awesome and the private cgs were much less than awesome. And what really stumps me is that the private cgs were almost double the price/night. How is that possible? State parks get me closer to the sights I want to see and activities in which I want to engage, so I prefer state parks in every state even if they don’t have all the high-end amenities.
We have been part of the Grand Design family since 2017 and love our 303 rls. We have 2 friends that purchased new at the time a 2022 Momentum and 2023 Solitude both major problems. The Solitude was so bad that the dealer had to buy it back and they ended up purchasing from another brand. The big Momentum was in the shop for 6 months with major flex failure! I keep hearing bad issues with new RV's in general they seem to have lost the quality control.
I bought a used 2011 KZ TT with a small slide in 2019. Unit has had zero issues, traveled back and forth across the country twice plus many short trips. Only thing that failed was the awning material ripped off on the way from Manitoba to AZ as the fabric was so brittle and the wind was horrific. Great little 25 foot rig.
Grand design, is hiding from all these and have a tight seal on everyone. We have this issue and they dismissed it because of second ownership. I bought the brand because of the false premise that they care. And for those who say insurance our fulltime insurance said that it was a manufacturing issue not an accident so we are stuck fixing it. Really sucks.
www.nhtsa.gov - everyone who had that issue needs to file a complaint and if it reaches the required limit the government will launch an official investigation. Then their tune will change.
If this is happening to many GD owners, this should be a safety issue, with a recall, not a warranty issue. Start writing your legislators to pass consumer protection laws for the RV industry.
Waiting to hear what the solution is for my toy hauler. 2023 Jayco Seismic 4113. What started out as a hairline crack about 5 inches in a 45 degree angle has now gone 2.5 ft horizontally , all the way to the side camera. Dealer said extensive damage as the aluminum wall studs have broken from the frame. The wall is now “floating”. 80-90 hours work, most it it is welding.
I am in the market for a toy hauler 5th wheel in the $125K MSRP range. I was very interested in the Grand Design Momentum, until I heard the term Frame Flex for the first time in my life. What brand of Toy Haulers are good quality, then? Only ones that don't use a Lippert frame?
Frame Flex? The rest of us call that Frame Failure. Lippert sucks. Everything they make sucks... Furniture peeling problem, frame failures, slide out problems...
Most people call it "frame flex" which is why I used that terminology. It IS frame failure, which I have said on several videos, but people understand the problem as "frame flex."
You just verified my decision to sell my RV and leave RVing behind. It became cost prohibitive. I can do so many other things with the same money, that are just as rewarding. I plan on doing at least 2 overseas trips a year, one domestic one, and a couple of weekends for not much more. Also, when it comes to Europe, the food is way better.
On the frame failure has anyone tested the metal to make sure it is the correct material mix? Sounds like welds are cracking and frame is bending causing more welds to fail, which sounds like the metal is not correct if it was designed to be the correct metal mix and thickness of metal. I mentioned this a year ago or so when I first saw this issue pop up, but have not seen anyone that tested the metal in the frame.
Most everything at the show we just attended was just awful. So SAD.. We have a Thor Forest River 2019 model that has been a great RV, but that just means that we are keeping it for a while yet!
Great video. The one thing I would like to see is a more detail app to find a RV to purchase. I want to see the actual bed mattress size, short or residential, power recliners or manual at lease a recliners. Refrigerator size ice maker or not, cubic feet of outside storage, step down height of shower, walk on roof or not, back splash or no BS. I have used RVtrader to narrow my search but there is a lot more filters or option added to narrow the search.
That’s sad with the lawsuit with Camping World and Thor and them. I agree with you Jason that Thor should help with fixing the Rv or take it back. The Rv industry. I agree with you on the A. I. chat on KOA campgrounds it’s better than calling or waiting for one and or an email. Thank you for telling of the the tv industry and Grand Design Frame Flex. And about South Dakota state parks. Thank you for talking of Super Bowl. I heard the hotels are charging $400.00 or more. Normally they charge $250.00 or so. Thank you Jason for all of this information.
We have a Grand Design Solitude 310 GK. After our 6 month trip out west, when we got to the Outer Banks, we saw our frame was cracked. We spotted a bend right above our Sumo Spring in Idaho Did our best to get it back to Florida. Progressive Insurance declared it “salvage” so we are living in it until we get a new rig. It cannot be towed 😔 I don’t see Alliance at the same level as Brinkley. Saw the video - what we got from it is more about Camping World than RVs in general. I agree, sue the builder of the RV, not who sold it to you. And definitely don’t sign something you don’t understand. If it’s for recreation only? Than yes maybe wait to buy an RV. But for some, an RV is the least expensive way to live. Alice
So sorry about your situation. Yeah, Brinkley is definitely a step up from Alliance in luxury, but you pay for it. But in terms of quality control and standing behind the product, most folks I've talked to have been very happy with Alliance.
This is unreal. We shopped RVs in 2019- 2020. The prices were out of line for every single line we looked at. Especially for the blatant and obvious cheap products used to make these. I do not know how many I walked through and had a piece of trim come off. Then look at the insulation that you can see. There was so much obvious I could not stand to look any further. We had been spoiled by owning a 2006 Carriage Cameo. That trailer was solid. The only issues we ever faced was self inflicted.
And that’s why I’m a FAN OF BUYING A RETIRED RENTAL!! I got burned when I bought my first RV from a private party, but bought my current RV from El Monte RV Rental & Sales! BTW, I’m not affiliated with them in anyway, just so happy with the whole sales process there. So many “Pros”, from a set price, to all the service records, to in house financing, to after purchase support!!! Try to get that from a dealer or private party sale 😬 If anyone wants to know more about it, I’m happy to answer any questions about my experience 😁
My wife and I are replacing the floor in our slide out, 5 years old and rotted out, we are photographing as we go along, we will contact the manufacturer and will see if they are willing to reimburse us for this repair, if not then maybe a lawsuit against them will come.
After attending the RV Super Show in Tampa and driving by the large dealers along I-4, there seems to be a huge amount of inventory available. I don't see how they could possibly sell them all with more coming from manufacturers.
Remember though, about 30,000 RVs are sold across the US per month in a bad year. And Florida is one of the top 3 states where they are sold. Dealers want stock for people to choose from. A healthy inventory isn’t a positive or negative indicator of sales. Just like a fully stocked shelf at the grocery store doesn’t mean that a product isn’t selling.
I bought a Minnie Winnie class C in 2015, used it for 7 years, then sold it. For years before buying, I had heard that there were a lot of quality problems in the industry. The quality of my RV was so poor, that I'll never buy an RV again. Cabinet panels peeling off, electrical fixtures misaligned, screws misaligned and poking through, outside storage water leaks, air leaks around all the cabinets that required me to seal everything with caulking ... just to name a few.
1972 Holiday Rambler was my last brand RV . It was bulletproof. Full time! Like going to the moon. We can't build them like that anymore just as we forgot how to go to the moon. Steve Lehto convinced me years ago to build my own RV from a double frame auto hauler. It's a toy hauler that sleeps 6 and can haul 6500 cargo. No frame flex. And I'm off road with it alot with my SXS. Don't buy an RV. Steve is right. There is such a thing as police your own. Makeframes Great Again. And I'm not going to touch on what will happen when you put a battery in that frame. Ugh. Thanks for the news though.
Based on the videos from Paving New Paths, it sounds like Grand Design is treating customers differently, fixing some frame issues and making the customer sign an NDA form and then completely blowing off (ignoring) other customers that have frame problem.
I thought I had decided to buy a used 2021 or 2022 Grand Design 2800BH travel trailer this Fall. Now I’m having second thoughts and don’t know WHAT to do…
Yes, speaking with actual people is my preference. I get very frustrated with the limitations of the auto response bots! It waste so much time where we usually end up with a person anyway and have to repeat every thing we had told the annoying bot!
The legal aspect of buying a new RV, with all the legal language on the contracts that is over the heads of most consumers, is what may burn the shorts of many buyer far more than a breakdown. Don’t think this is not well planned by dealers and manufacturers.
Disclaimers are usually in ALL CAPS and are pushed as "its our standard form" blah blah. Negotiations start there and if the dealer doesn't budge... run!
I follow Paving New Paths here on UA-cam & its a shame that their frame has failure on their RV. Paying such a big price for something there should be a warranty, but i feel also that frame failure should be taken care of by the manufacturer when the unit is just a couple years old.
Just imagine an RV manufacture that has built and was known for rock solid, well built RV's and stood behind their product. Keeping the high quality building standards, they couldn't build enough RV's fast enough. Why that isn't typical in the industry is just baffling. I am keeping my older travel trailer until something changes. Probably won't though.
While I agree with most of what you had to say about the Camping World lawsuit (and I don't have any love for Camping World), I must take issue with your statement that RVs are different than cars "because RVs are just the assembly of a bunch of components made by other mfgs". While it's true that the RV dealer system is different from car franchisees, in the automotive industry the "component mfgs" are just called subcontractors. Ford, GM, etc, don't mfg radios or air bags or tires or a lot of other subsystems like braking, ABS, etc. They purchase them and install them from subcontractors not that much different from RVs buying and installing A/Cs, refrigerators or other components. Yes, car mfgs, unlike RV mfgs, make their own frames and chassis' but otherwise the purchase of subsystems and components are not that much different between the two industries.
If the industry is coming back , why were the factories in Shipshewana , Middlebury , and Goshen closed on Friday , February 2nd . The next Amish holiday is Ascension Day .
There are a bunch of us who have been crashing RV shows by wearing shirts to warn others not to buy from certain businesses. I go into groups everywhere warning people not to buy new rvs.
I hope Thor finally gets what's due them. I was talking with an RV salesman recently and he told me that the dealership he works for refuses to carry any Thor product.
If the RV industry as a whole made better quality products instead of “get it out the door as fast as you can” crap they would have a better reputation and standing with consumers. I have had to make repairs to most of the rv,’s we have owned that I should not have had to do because most all of the manufacturers have no real quality control.
Based on 2 years of watching non stop RV videos what I've learned is to AVOID AT ALL COST: Thor, Jayco, Winnebago, and Grand Design! Avoid buying new if I can, buy used BEFORE 2020.
Bottom line, they know HOW TO Sell them, but SERVICE IN A TIMELY MATTER, Good luck, no service tects , plus upper end dealers told us they are building THEM VERY CHEAP.
I checked the hubs at delivery. 0 greace in bearing. Between delivery and arrival at home, the trailer had well over 1k miles on dry bearings. Rv manufacturers are a joke. Staples holding slide skis on allowing water in. There is nothing sealing screws that hold the trailer together. It is very sad how they manufacture these campers.
Higher prices and lower quality were a recipe for disaster. The industry went for the money grab and committed suicide. Its going to take a long time for the industry to come back from what they did to the public. People see these rv's breaking at the frame and sitting on the side of the road. Water tanks falling through the floor do not instill confidence. People feel like they are getting ripped off. These prices are ridiculous.No one can justify these prices for something that's falling apart in 6 months. Its criminal!
Been researching mainly quality for 5 years. Watched GD go down hill fast since the buyout. Loved Alliance when they came out but walked through 10 Paradigms 2 years ago and every single one had horrible quality issues. We're buying a Flagstaff 371RK. In many ways built better than even Brinkley when you really dig into the specs. Too many people buying the hype there imo and buying the shiny object and going into debt. They'll be another GD in a few years just wait for it.
As far as the Frame failure! Lippard and Grand design , or other manufacturers of RVs should be 100% responsible for the failure of the RV wasn’t over weight!! I’ve never seen gooseneck trailers fail from hauling 20ton of hay because they are engines right. Frames on 5th wheels are not engineered right. Frame failure should never happen. Even over loaded.
The crazy thing about RV warranty repairs by the manufacture is you must bring the RV to THEM in Indiana. That's possibly 3000 miles away depending on where you live. No way I'll ever buy one.
During the so-called COVID years, there were so many issues for new RV buyers that I advised against anyone buying until the COVID era of malfeasance expired. By this, I mean the manufacturers building substandard units, which they passed on to the dealers, who had no problem selling due to panic buying by people who were fleeing the congested cities in hopes of avoiding the COVID scare. The dealers knew they were selling units that were substandard in quality, but like car dealers, they promised you the moon, but the only moon you got was … well, I won’t be graphic, but you get the point. Fast forward to 2023, and my prediction about thousands of dissatisfied new owners, dealers with lots full of RVs they can’t sell, and manufacturers having to rethink their business model is coming true. No, I don’t have a crystal ball, but as my Granny used to say, all of the education in the world is useless without horse sense. To be sure, some dealerships strive to do the right thing, but the truth is that many only think of the profits, and customer satisfaction is non-existent. This was reinforced during COVID when people bought any unit at any price, regardless of whether it truly met their needs. But there is this thing called Karma. There is good Karma and bad. I know because I have spent many years balancing good and bad in my favor. It is not always easy. But, Karma is now coming back to hit many in the RV industry in the south part of their anatomy, and some so hard some are selling out. That’s good! When they were hauling cash to the bank in wheelbarrows, they yuked, yuked, all the way. But now, they are reaping much of what they sowed. A large number of dealerships have sold out to larger conglomerations. Unfortunately, many buyers who were unprepared and without knowledge now realize what a deep hole they dug themselves into. They are unable to maintain the sub-standard money pits sold to them by an evil industry. Unwilling or unable to sell at a loss, they are hanging on a financial precipice about losing their investment due to bad decisions and conniving dealers, whom the manufacturers facilitated. I stop short of saying we need to show up at the manufacturer’s door or the dealership lot with pitchforks and torches. Yet, we do need to communicate in no uncertain terms that you treat your customer base respectfully or fold your doors and go away. We need an army of product liability lawyers to sue until their eyes bleed. We need an insurrection that results in the RV industry following the steps of the automobile industry. Larry from Texas
But our politicians are in the pocket of the RV manufacturers! So good luck, can you get the law changed? Then forget about it save your money and travel differently.
So when will we see a manufacturer with Tesla style direct to consumer sales? Or do they already exist? Oliver and Safari Condo come to mind, but they’re kinda small market players
It is Frame Flex if it flexes way beyond the specs from the engineers, the RV manufactures are telling Lippert how to design these RV frames. The RV manufacture want to build lighter and lighter so people with 1/2 ton trucks can pull these heavy RVs even though these 1/2 ton trucks(less expensive to buy) are still way to small, a 1 ton truck is the best. People don't want to spend $80,000 to $90,000 for a 1 ton truck plane and simple. The RV dealerships will lie to their customer and tell them a 1/2 ton truck is big enough just to make a sale, why do you think these manufactures only give a one year warranty because they know that the frames will fail hopefully after the one year warranty this is usually when the trailers frames fail. When the frames flex you get major issues inside the trailer like cabinets coming loose from the walls, gaps in the interior walls, the outside walls start to separate from the frame. The hangers for the leaf springs crack and the leaf spring breaks free of the frame because of the frame flex and also because the leaf spring hangers are not beefy enough. My opinion is based on viewing 50 to 60 UA-cam videos with these frame flex issues.
I got my truck serviced and they filmed the whole thing and made it available to view. If the RV industry filmed the whole manufacture of YOUR NEW RV it may help if you could see it made. Your RV not a general one, from welds to walls.
I want to buy a 38 foot camper/trailer to live in. I want to put it in a mobile home park. I don't want propane, I want a heat pump. Can someone explain the pro's and con's of a trailer as opposed to a mobile home or regular house.
A travel trailer has far less insulation in the walls, floor and ceiling than a mobile home or stick built house. The plumbing is shoddy. The systems all run on 12vdc instead of 120 vac.
This poor manufacture response is going to be a huge problem real quick. I have a feeling that a bunch of RV owners are going to get pissed and will get the government involved and laws will be passed to have some over site on the manufactures.
Speaking as an attorney, yes, you have virtually no legal rights when you buy one of these things. Don't do it unless you enjoy gambling with large sums of money. You have far more rights when buying a car.
Grand design wants to charge for fixing the frames. They fix the problem by telling the frame manufacturer to build a stronger frame. Why do I have to start out paying 16000 dollars to have a frame fix. And that's just to start
RV manufacturers need to be held accountable for their major/safety mistakes and follies
They also need to improve the quality of their products.
They won't, they have very poor manufacturing practices, pay very little to their employees, thus have lots of personal rotation, also use lots of badly made Chinese water heaters, light fixtures, furnaces...etc
@@amateur_football9751 they have to quit paying by the piece
That's why anyone with a major structural or safety related failure should immediately report it to NHTSA.gov and saferproducts.gov
Completely agree. The only way to buy an RV is get a used one, thoroughly inspected by someone who knows and cares what they're doing, realizing that there is no such thing as a warranty, and the buyer is willing to do ALL of the future repairs....at their own expense and/or time. This is how we mentally went into buying a 2019 5th wheel. Only two types of people should be buying RVs:
1. Those who can do all of electrical work, hvac work, cosmetic repairs, roofing, welding, appliance repair or replacements, etc.,ect.
OR
2. People who have lots and lots of disposable income to hire other people who can.
Imagine if you bought a Ford F150 and a wheel bearing went in the first couple of weeks and Ford told you you had to go to Tinkham Bearing Company and get them to fix it. Automobiles are also built from thousands of parts from all over the world and the manufacturer who puts all the parts together stands behind the finished product.
Speech to text fails again. I need a better proof reader.@@deltabravo1257
True. I'm annoyed by hearing all the excuses RV manufacturers, sales people and fan boys make that are totally unjustifiable.
It’s not an RV industry problem the problem is Made in the USA… Forde recalls every car nowadays, quality problem after quality problem. And what is about Boeing???
I guess my first thought is, if I am buying from Dealer X, is Dealer X a authorized Brand A dealership. If so, then there should never be a problem getting anything on Brand A repaired at Dealer X. If I bought Brand B from Dealer X and X is not an authorized seller of B, it's my option to buy it there but the Dealer Y down the road who is an Authorized Dealer for B should be able to fix Brand B for me no problem. Weather I pay for it or it's a warranty fix.
Now Brands should have their warranty system setup and clear that if it's a used unit, I don't care used 2024 and were in 2024, that it's transferable warranty or not. If it's not transferrable, great, I own a 2024 in 2024 with no warranty. But I should be made clear of that by the manufacturer Brand website or by the Auth Dealer X that I'm buying from.....but I understand if Dealer Y who isn't this Brands AD, don't need to tell me shit. But I would assume Dealer Y is gonna nickel and dime me for some type of extended warranty anyways, so there's that
@@freedomisnotnegotiablenot at all true. What about everytime a tool breaks and you look and says Made in China. Then you complain about cheap Chinese crap. Or go on to Wish and see an amazing deal for something and knowing damn well it's crap from China too. Toyota recalls vehicles, Kia/Hyundai are under recalls with easily being stolen, Range Rovers you can steal with a $20 device and a blank key fob which they are soon to be recalled for reprogramming security protocol, VW had to be recalled due to emissions non-compliance.
Every brand mentioned made not in the USA. So it's disingenuous to say Made In USA equals poorly made
My husband and I always joke about replacing our 2018 Kodiak Ultimate, but then we see all the problems that people are having with newer RVs and trailers, and we decide against it! Thanks for all the great info you provide, very much appreciated.
I feel the same about our 2000 Holiday Rambler. We have replaced a lot of the issues with it and despite its age and it has a few quirks. But it’s still better than 75% of the new garbage on the road.
We had purchased a new 2012 Heartland Big horn 3610 R 5th wheel. We were told how good the quality was . Nothing but a piece of junk. We suffered with it for 4 years. The warranty meant nothing. We got our butt handed to us and sold it for half of what we paid for it. NEVER EVER AGAIN.
Funny thing about Grand Design, we were looking at their trailers about three years ago and noticed huge I mean huge variation in the actual sticker unloaded weight vs that reported on the web site for that specific model. Worst yet the unit to unit variability for the exact same model we saw at dealer's lots was in the range of 7% so one unit of the same model had a sticker of 4400lb and another unit of the same model trailer with the exact same equipment had a sticker of 4800lb. We reached out to GD knowing they had a pretty good QC in place, or so it was advertised, and asked about the reason for why there is literally ~400lb of stuff missing between the same trailers. We exchanged a few emails as I was starting to have doubts about the QC. After exchanging a few emails and asking a very pointed question about QC and SOPs I stopped receiving any further responses. What I got a sense of is that the GD at the time ,in the process to do QC at the back end of the manufacturing process, would test all tanks for leaks by filling them full. That was followed by weighing the units to get that official UVW that goes on the yellow sticker. But it seems they would randomly forget to drain the tanks first or maybe weight it while the tanks were still draining due to things being rushed. When I suggested this is a problem since the yellow sticker is the official and moreover legal weight that dictates the Cargo capacity (CCC) of the trailer and may be a litigation issue when it comes to any future accident with the unit on the highway I got a complete silence in return... Turned me off GD completely and we purchased another manufacturer's trailer instead.
Hey - thanks for the shout out! Always appreciate it.
You bet!
When we purchased our travel trailer, I went thru and crossed off each one of those warranty releases. The dealer (not CW) said I couldn't do that. I told them if they want to sell me the unit, then they had to accept my refusal of warranty releases. The dealer accepted it, signed off on the paperwork and gave me copies of the signed paperwork. We are a few years out of warranty, but while in warranty, the trailer builder refused a warranty issue, but when the dealer sent them a copy of the paperwork (which their rep also signed off on a few days after I had signed or the sale was void), and the builder honored the warranty. It can be done as the buyer is in the driver's seat if the dealer wants to make a sale. It was a cash sale and I was ready to rip up the check.
Great idea, thank you for sharing!
NICE! All buyers should do this.
Yes!! It's all about that contract! (Contract paralegal here...😉)
Comical. Was it cold, hard cash? Dealer must have made a healthy profit to deal with such a great negotiator like yourself. Crossing off warranty releases isn't a thing and doesn't make it invalid.
The best RV news tag team out there! Thanks as always for the truly relevant info.
Awesome reporting on tough times in the RV industry. We are Lance truck camper owners and thoroughly enjoy your channel.
What’s happening in the RV world reminds me of the American auto industry cranking out some really poor product in the late 70’s and early 80’s. There were some major changes that were made and in the long run the consumers came out on top with vehicles that are far superior today.
Keep up the great work! We’ll be watching!
Thanks Jason and Abby, well done. If all the people who want to buy a brand new RV just put it off for a year, year and a half maybe the dealers and manufacturers would get the message. The message being we're not buying anything until you put the consumer first.
Thanks for the great update as usual. I really appreciate how you always try to explain both sides of the issue, while we all may have our own biases, you always come across fair and balanced in your analysis. I also appreciate that despite what one side says over another, I also appreciate you always remind everyone to not forget the end user - the consumer!
When we went looking to buy an RV, we went to 3 different dealers. They all had models on the lot that were so cheaply made things were broken on almost every display model, and they wanted more than we paid for our first home. We were encouraged by friends to look at older models as they were better quality and in better shape than brand new. We decided to walk away altogether. RV's are money pits. We may end up DIY our own van in the near future since my husband has a lot of remodel experience and I like to design.
I just love how you casually throw around the word "engineer" as a verb, to describe what these RV manufacturers do. I guess it sounds better than "slap together".
As a degreed, licensed and practicing engineer, it irritates me as there is nothing truly "engineered" in the towable industry. The right word is "assembled."
@@robv4053 100% spot on!
Great video! Thanks for keeping us up-to-date on the RV industry news.
Love my 2018 Rockwood Minilite. No issues. So thankful.
Yes we feel the same way, we down sized to a 22 Ft. Mini lite this past year, Big RV's especially ones with motors and generators = a lot more maintenance and potential issues!
Same here.
Our 2021 24’ Mini Lite 2205S with theater seating that I took possession of in August of 2020 has been the best RV that I have ever owned👍
Rockwood and flagstaff are the best built travel trailers out there imho quality wise next to that overpriced tin can.
Happy enough with our Geopro. Few new trailer issues like doors coming apart because of plastic corner clips. That’s unacceptable but easily fixed with real hardware. Solidly built and fun first TT in my entire family. Survived the road trip out west. Worth it!
Make crappy rvs and sooner or later it'll catch up. With UA-cam it caught up even faster. Especially with how grand design responded on the horrible plumbing they do and how they aren't going to change because it's not affecting them.
For inspection and engineering purposes, I refer to them as Grand OSB Design. Any mechanical engineer, especially with experience in building envelope, would take one look at their design on their factory tour and their claims for "marine OSB" (which literally doesn't exist) and refuse to give them a dime. And they are supposed to be the good part of the industry...
What a fair analysis of so many issues. I enjoy Lehto also and saw that last week. I’m also following several people with “Frame Failure” problems, including the ones you flashed on the screen. Enjoyed meeting you at KC show. We spoke briefly before your first program before I plopped down on the front row to enjoy it. Thanks so much for the information you give us.
Lehto has been a great voice warning people about buying RV's for years.
Always providing the most current and up to date RV news. We appreciate you.
Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to research and put these videos together! The quality is unmatched and I hope everyone realizes how much work these are!
My pleasure! Thanks so much!
Love the content Jason! Keep up the great work keeping us informed!
Thanks! Will do!
After listening to you speak and here everything that is going on, I will never buy an RV or a trailer. The funny part about it is, I'm ready to retire and that is what I was going to do, Buy an RV or travel trailer, not any longer!!!
Buy an Airstream. No regrets.
Don’t be so negative. There are plenty of good opportunities out there. Look for a good two or three year old coach from one of the top manufacturers, like Tiffin or Newmar, have it looked at by a certified inspector, and be on your way. I think the best advice is not to buy new, mostly because of price, and the fact that used units have usually had the bugs worked out. And take your time, don’t buy the first thing that comes along.
I am an Airstream owner and like it but my next will be a Brinkley.
Grand Design is an example of how a brand can go downhills really quickly. Grand Design quality and customer service has been slowly stepping down ever since they were sold to Winnebago. Additionally almost all of their floor plans are copies off of other brands, which is common in the industry, but it shows their lack of interest in innovation.
Sir you are welcome to feel the way you want. But i just retired and bought a new 5th wheel Because i know my time is limited { and so is yours } I will take my chances on traveling knowing every RV ever built will need maintenance and some repairs i personal would rather travel and see America in our closing days
Than be on my Death Bed wish i had just HMO
The RV industry needs to stop it with the smoke and mirrors of selling the same RV under 2 different "brands". Its confusing and frustrating for consumers. I know WHY they do it but they need to stop. Consumers are smarter and more well researched than ever before and are not tolerant of being bamboozled in such a way.
It's really dumb.
We went to an RV show in Wichita Ks recently and got to see some of the frames on the grand design trailers vs the tongue frames on another brand and the tongue dimensions were visibly smaller, perhaps explaining a lot of the flex and breaking issues with grand design frames. The RVs themselves were beautiful but that doesn't count for much if you cannot pull them down the road safely!
It wasn't long after we purchased our 2017 Keystone Avalanche that we started reading about cracking in the Filon siding in the Keystone RV forum. It was mostly occurring around the bedroom slide from the lower left to the front of the RV. Keystone eventually sent out copies of repair proceedures to the dealers (I have a copy) for those units brought in with the problem. It turns out that it's mainly a failure in welds on the Lippert frame that causes the issue. I would not be surprised if the same problem in the Grand Design units since many of the RV frames are made by Lippert.
One thing I would really like to see is some sort of consumer protections for RV owners but it seems like every time something tries to get started, the RVIA and RV dealers squash it. Can't imagine why 😋
I LOVE state parks and I visited and stayed in multiple state and privately owned parks just last year. I gotta say … the state park cgs wer awesome and the private cgs were much less than awesome. And what really stumps me is that the private cgs were almost double the price/night. How is that possible? State parks get me closer to the sights I want to see and activities in which I want to engage, so I prefer state parks in every state even if they don’t have all the high-end amenities.
We have been part of the Grand Design family since 2017 and love our 303 rls. We have 2 friends that purchased new at the time a 2022 Momentum and 2023 Solitude both major problems. The Solitude was so bad that the dealer had to buy it back and they ended up purchasing from another brand. The big Momentum was in the shop for 6 months with major flex failure! I keep hearing bad issues with new RV's in general they seem to have lost the quality control.
Thanks!
Thank you for the support!
EXCELLENT VIDEO.most important is its == FAIR ==thanks JASON
I bought a used 2011 KZ TT with a small slide in 2019. Unit has had zero issues, traveled back and forth across the country twice plus many short trips. Only thing that failed was the awning material ripped off on the way from Manitoba to AZ as the fabric was so brittle and the wind was horrific. Great little 25 foot rig.
Grand design, is hiding from all these and have a tight seal on everyone. We have this issue and they dismissed it because of second ownership. I bought the brand because of the false premise that they care. And for those who say insurance our fulltime insurance said that it was a manufacturing issue not an accident so we are stuck fixing it. Really sucks.
www.nhtsa.gov - everyone who had that issue needs to file a complaint and if it reaches the required limit the government will launch an official investigation. Then their tune will change.
If this is happening to many GD owners, this should be a safety issue, with a recall, not a warranty issue. Start writing your legislators to pass consumer protection laws for the RV industry.
@@campnut6076 yup paving new paths put a link out there to file the concern. NHTSA.gov
@gorvyourself I came here to say my neighbor has frame flex on his Momentum, but here you are, LOL.
@@rvfamilylife we found someone who said they can fix it so 🤞.
Great information, those dealers who screw the consumers should be outlawed.
🙏🙏🙏
Waiting to hear what the solution is for my toy hauler. 2023 Jayco Seismic 4113. What started out as a hairline crack about 5 inches in a 45 degree angle has now gone 2.5 ft horizontally , all the way to the side camera. Dealer said extensive damage as the aluminum wall studs have broken from the frame. The wall is now “floating”. 80-90 hours work, most it it is welding.
I am in the market for a toy hauler 5th wheel in the $125K MSRP range. I was very interested in the Grand Design Momentum, until I heard the term Frame Flex for the first time in my life. What brand of Toy Haulers are good quality, then? Only ones that don't use a Lippert frame?
is the frame flex on grand design only affecting the 5th wheels? I just bought a grand design travel trailer, should d I be worried?
It can happen on any RV, but this is really a fifth wheel issue.
Frame Flex? The rest of us call that Frame Failure. Lippert sucks. Everything they make sucks... Furniture peeling problem, frame failures, slide out problems...
Most people call it "frame flex" which is why I used that terminology. It IS frame failure, which I have said on several videos, but people understand the problem as "frame flex."
@@RVMiles Call it what it is.
@@billmalecI literally say in the video what people are calling frame flex is actually frame failure.
Was at the Belleville ILLINOIS RV show this weekend and seen $40,000 msrp RV marked down 50%.
Did you see any valor with 50 percent off
saw
Great job and good information...as usual.
I appreciate that!
You just verified my decision to sell my RV and leave RVing behind. It became cost prohibitive. I can do so many other things with the same money, that are just as rewarding. I plan on doing at least 2 overseas trips a year, one domestic one, and a couple of weekends for not much more. Also, when it comes to Europe, the food is way better.
How'd the sale go?
Great update Jason, and yes to web chat when interacting with a company. Agree!
On the frame failure has anyone tested the metal to make sure it is the correct material mix? Sounds like welds are cracking and frame is bending causing more welds to fail, which sounds like the metal is not correct if it was designed to be the correct metal mix and thickness of metal. I mentioned this a year ago or so when I first saw this issue pop up, but have not seen anyone that tested the metal in the frame.
I don't want a Thor even for free. Thanks.
Most everything at the show we just attended was just awful. So SAD.. We have a Thor Forest River 2019 model that has been a great RV, but that just means that we are keeping it for a while yet!
Avoid Thor (who owns jayco as well) and Grand Design (Winnebago)!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
Love these videos Jason - thanks for the updates!
A great video with lots of information. Thank you!
Our pleasure!
Great video. The one thing I would like to see is a more detail app to find a RV to purchase. I want to see the actual bed mattress size, short or residential, power recliners or manual at lease a recliners. Refrigerator size ice maker or not, cubic feet of outside storage, step down height of shower, walk on roof or not, back splash or no BS. I have used RVtrader to narrow my search but there is a lot more filters or option added to narrow the search.
That’s sad with the lawsuit with Camping World and Thor and them. I agree with you Jason that Thor should help with fixing the Rv or take it back. The Rv industry. I agree with you on the A. I. chat on KOA campgrounds it’s better than calling or waiting for one and or an email. Thank you for telling of the the tv industry and Grand Design Frame Flex. And about South Dakota state parks. Thank you for talking of Super Bowl. I heard the hotels are charging $400.00 or more. Normally they charge $250.00 or so.
Thank you Jason for all of this information.
We have a Grand Design Solitude 310 GK.
After our 6 month trip out west, when we got to the Outer Banks, we saw our frame was cracked.
We spotted a bend right above our Sumo Spring in Idaho
Did our best to get it back to Florida.
Progressive Insurance declared it “salvage” so we are living in it until we get a new rig.
It cannot be towed 😔
I don’t see Alliance at the same level as Brinkley.
Saw the video - what we got from it is more about Camping World than RVs in general. I agree, sue the builder of the RV, not who sold it to you. And definitely don’t sign something you don’t understand.
If it’s for recreation only? Than yes maybe wait to buy an RV. But for some, an RV is the least expensive way to live.
Alice
So sorry about your situation. Yeah, Brinkley is definitely a step up from Alliance in luxury, but you pay for it. But in terms of quality control and standing behind the product, most folks I've talked to have been very happy with Alliance.
This is unreal. We shopped RVs in 2019- 2020. The prices were out of line for every single line we looked at. Especially for the blatant and obvious cheap products used to make these.
I do not know how many I walked through and had a piece of trim come off.
Then look at the insulation that you can see. There was so much obvious I could not stand to look any further.
We had been spoiled by owning a 2006 Carriage Cameo. That trailer was solid. The only issues we ever faced was self inflicted.
And that’s why I’m a FAN OF BUYING A RETIRED RENTAL!! I got burned when I bought my first RV from a private party, but bought my current RV from El Monte RV Rental & Sales! BTW, I’m not affiliated with them in anyway, just so happy with the whole sales process there. So many “Pros”, from a set price, to all the service records, to in house financing, to after purchase support!!! Try to get that from a dealer or private party sale 😬 If anyone wants to know more about it, I’m happy to answer any questions about my experience 😁
My wife and I are replacing the floor in our slide out, 5 years old and rotted out, we are photographing as we go along, we will contact the manufacturer and will see if they are willing to reimburse us for this repair, if not then maybe a lawsuit against them will come.
Sales told not to lie!! Yet recent salesmen at Quartzsite show said they had never heard of ANY Grand Designs problems.
After attending the RV Super Show in Tampa and driving by the large dealers along I-4, there seems to be a huge amount of inventory available. I don't see how they could possibly sell them all with more coming from manufacturers.
Remember though, about 30,000 RVs are sold across the US per month in a bad year. And Florida is one of the top 3 states where they are sold. Dealers want stock for people to choose from. A healthy inventory isn’t a positive or negative indicator of sales. Just like a fully stocked shelf at the grocery store doesn’t mean that a product isn’t selling.
I bought a Minnie Winnie class C in 2015, used it for 7 years, then sold it. For years before buying, I had heard that there were a lot of quality problems in the industry. The quality of my RV was so poor, that I'll never buy an RV again. Cabinet panels peeling off, electrical fixtures misaligned, screws misaligned and poking through, outside storage water leaks, air leaks around all the cabinets that required me to seal everything with caulking ... just to name a few.
1972 Holiday Rambler was my last brand RV . It was bulletproof. Full time! Like going to the moon. We can't build them like that anymore just as we forgot how to go to the moon. Steve Lehto convinced me years ago to build my own RV from a double frame auto hauler. It's a toy hauler that sleeps 6 and can haul 6500 cargo. No frame flex. And I'm off road with it alot with my SXS. Don't buy an RV. Steve is right. There is such a thing as police your own. Makeframes Great Again. And I'm not going to touch on what will happen when you put a battery in that frame. Ugh. Thanks for the news though.
Based on the videos from Paving New Paths, it sounds like Grand Design is treating customers differently, fixing some frame issues and making the customer sign an NDA form and then completely blowing off (ignoring) other customers that have frame problem.
So excited to see you almost to 100k
Love this channel. Great info well presented.
Much appreciated!
I’m with you on the web chat. It seems to always be the best away to resolve a problems for me.
I thought I had decided to buy a used 2021 or 2022 Grand Design 2800BH travel trailer this Fall. Now I’m having second thoughts and don’t know WHAT to do…
Another great concise update. ✅
It seems the newer 5th wheels are built much better. Hope the industry gets this problem fixed soon
Yes, speaking with actual people is my preference. I get very frustrated with the limitations of the auto response bots! It waste so much time where we usually end up with a person anyway and have to repeat every thing we had told the annoying bot!
The legal aspect of buying a new RV, with all the legal language on the contracts that is over the heads of most consumers, is what may burn the shorts of many buyer far more than a breakdown. Don’t think this is not well planned by dealers and manufacturers.
Disclaimers are usually in ALL CAPS and are pushed as "its our standard form" blah blah. Negotiations start there and if the dealer doesn't budge... run!
I wouldn't buy a new RV right now, its like playing the lemon lottery.
"Don't lie to me" anything coming out of Elkhart is absolute junk.
As Steve lento says don't buy rv unless your crazy with the games the dealers and manufacturers play and he is a car lemon law attorney lol
I follow Paving New Paths here on UA-cam & its a shame that their frame has failure on their RV. Paying such a big price for something there should be a warranty, but i feel also that frame failure should be taken care of by the manufacturer when the unit is just a couple years old.
Leisure travel vans still command full msrp. Usually. They are really nice.
Just imagine an RV manufacture that has built and was known for rock solid, well built RV's and stood behind their product. Keeping the high quality building standards, they couldn't build enough RV's fast enough. Why that isn't typical in the industry is just baffling. I am keeping my older travel trailer until something changes. Probably won't though.
While I agree with most of what you had to say about the Camping World lawsuit (and I don't have any love for Camping World), I must take issue with your statement that RVs are different than cars "because RVs are just the assembly of a bunch of components made by other mfgs". While it's true that the RV dealer system is different from car franchisees, in the automotive industry the "component mfgs" are just called subcontractors. Ford, GM, etc, don't mfg radios or air bags or tires or a lot of other subsystems like braking, ABS, etc. They purchase them and install them from subcontractors not that much different from RVs buying and installing A/Cs, refrigerators or other components. Yes, car mfgs, unlike RV mfgs, make their own frames and chassis' but otherwise the purchase of subsystems and components are not that much different between the two industries.
Absolutely correct! Well said!
I think a lot of the frame problems are due to trying to make them lighter and lighter. One good pothole and the welds start cracking.
If the industry is coming back , why were the factories in Shipshewana , Middlebury , and Goshen closed on Friday , February 2nd . The next Amish holiday is Ascension Day .
There are a bunch of us who have been crashing RV shows by wearing shirts to warn others not to buy from certain businesses. I go into groups everywhere warning people not to buy new rvs.
I hope Thor finally gets what's due them. I was talking with an RV salesman recently and he told me that the dealership he works for refuses to carry any Thor product.
I’ll keep my 2011 Flagstaff paid for and built so much better than new ones! Having a handy hubby who can fix the little things that comes up!
Thor and Camping World. Poor guy didn’t stand a chance
If the RV industry as a whole made better quality products instead of “get it out the door as fast as you can” crap they would have a better reputation and standing with consumers. I have had to make repairs to most of the rv,’s we have owned that I should not have had to do because most all of the manufacturers have no real quality control.
Steve is a great, he live close to me and handle a lawsuit for my sister in law after I sent her there after watching his videos. He has sound advice.
Based on 2 years of watching non stop RV videos what I've learned is to AVOID AT ALL COST: Thor, Jayco, Winnebago, and Grand Design! Avoid buying new if I can, buy used BEFORE 2020.
Does the frame failure problem mainly/only occur with drop frame models or is this all fifth wheels?
Bottom line, they know HOW TO Sell them, but SERVICE IN A TIMELY MATTER, Good luck, no service tects , plus upper end dealers told us they are building THEM VERY CHEAP.
Great report
I checked the hubs at delivery. 0 greace in bearing. Between delivery and arrival at home, the trailer had well over 1k miles on dry bearings. Rv manufacturers are a joke. Staples holding slide skis on allowing water in. There is nothing sealing screws that hold the trailer together. It is very sad how they manufacture these campers.
Higher prices and lower quality were a recipe for disaster. The industry went for the money grab and committed suicide. Its going to take a long time for the industry to come back from what they did to the public. People see these rv's breaking at the frame and sitting on the side of the road. Water tanks falling through the floor do not instill confidence. People feel like they are getting ripped off. These prices are ridiculous.No one can justify these prices for something that's falling apart in 6 months. Its criminal!
What year did frame flex/failure start with Grand Design / Lippert?
Been researching mainly quality for 5 years. Watched GD go down hill fast since the buyout. Loved Alliance when they came out but walked through 10 Paradigms 2 years ago and every single one had horrible quality issues. We're buying a Flagstaff 371RK. In many ways built better than even Brinkley when you really dig into the specs. Too many people buying the hype there imo and buying the shiny object and going into debt. They'll be another GD in a few years just wait for it.
As far as the Frame failure! Lippard and Grand design , or other manufacturers of RVs should be 100% responsible for the failure of the RV wasn’t over weight!! I’ve never seen gooseneck trailers fail from hauling 20ton of hay because they are engines right. Frames on 5th wheels are not engineered right. Frame failure should never happen. Even over loaded.
The crazy thing about RV warranty repairs by the manufacture is you must bring the RV to THEM in Indiana. That's possibly 3000 miles away depending on where you live. No way I'll ever buy one.
During the so-called COVID years, there were so many issues for new RV buyers that I advised against anyone buying until the COVID era of malfeasance expired. By this, I mean the manufacturers building substandard units, which they passed on to the dealers, who had no problem selling due to panic buying by people who were fleeing the congested cities in hopes of avoiding the COVID scare.
The dealers knew they were selling units that were substandard in quality, but like car dealers, they promised you the moon, but the only moon you got was … well, I won’t be graphic, but you get the point.
Fast forward to 2023, and my prediction about thousands of dissatisfied new owners, dealers with lots full of RVs they can’t sell, and manufacturers having to rethink their business model is coming true. No, I don’t have a crystal ball, but as my Granny used to say, all of the education in the world is useless without horse sense.
To be sure, some dealerships strive to do the right thing, but the truth is that many only think of the profits, and customer satisfaction is non-existent. This was reinforced during COVID when people bought any unit at any price, regardless of whether it truly met their needs.
But there is this thing called Karma. There is good Karma and bad. I know because I have spent many years balancing good and bad in my favor. It is not always easy. But, Karma is now coming back to hit many in the RV industry in the south part of their anatomy, and some so hard some are selling out. That’s good! When they were hauling cash to the bank in wheelbarrows, they yuked, yuked, all the way. But now, they are reaping much of what they sowed.
A large number of dealerships have sold out to larger conglomerations. Unfortunately, many buyers who were unprepared and without knowledge now realize what a deep hole they dug themselves into. They are unable to maintain the sub-standard money pits sold to them by an evil industry. Unwilling or unable to sell at a loss, they are hanging on a financial precipice about losing their investment due to bad decisions and conniving dealers, whom the manufacturers facilitated.
I stop short of saying we need to show up at the manufacturer’s door or the dealership lot with pitchforks and torches. Yet, we do need to communicate in no uncertain terms that you treat your customer base respectfully or fold your doors and go away. We need an army of product liability lawyers to sue until their eyes bleed. We need an insurrection that results in the RV industry following the steps of the automobile industry.
Larry from Texas
But our politicians are in the pocket of the RV manufacturers! So good luck, can you get the law changed? Then forget about it save your money and travel differently.
Love your delivery!
Thank you!!
Why would I spend $$$$$$ just so I can own lots of problems and frustrations.
If the news gets out that RV companies are not giving WARRENTIES any more on new units, the bottom will be a lot lower.
So when will we see a manufacturer with Tesla style direct to consumer sales? Or do they already exist? Oliver and Safari Condo come to mind, but they’re kinda small market players
It is Frame Flex if it flexes way beyond the specs from the engineers, the RV manufactures are telling Lippert how to design these RV frames. The RV manufacture want to build lighter and lighter so people with 1/2 ton trucks can pull these heavy RVs even though these 1/2 ton trucks(less expensive to buy) are still way to small, a 1 ton truck is the best. People don't want to spend $80,000 to $90,000 for a 1 ton truck plane and simple. The RV dealerships will lie to their customer and tell them a 1/2 ton truck is big enough just to make a sale, why do you think these manufactures only give a one year warranty because they know that the frames will fail hopefully after the one year warranty this is usually when the trailers frames fail. When the frames flex you get major issues inside the trailer like cabinets coming loose from the walls, gaps in the interior walls, the outside walls start to separate from the frame. The hangers for the leaf springs crack and the leaf spring breaks free of the frame because of the frame flex and also because the leaf spring hangers are not beefy enough. My opinion is based on viewing 50 to 60 UA-cam videos with these frame flex issues.
I got my truck serviced and they filmed the whole thing and made it available to view. If the RV industry filmed the whole manufacture of YOUR NEW RV it may help if you could see it made. Your RV not a general one, from welds to walls.
I want to buy a 38 foot camper/trailer to live in.
I want to put it in a mobile home park.
I don't want propane, I want a heat pump.
Can someone explain the pro's and con's of a trailer as opposed to a mobile home or regular house.
A travel trailer has far less insulation in the walls, floor and ceiling than a mobile home or stick built house.
The plumbing is shoddy.
The systems all run on 12vdc instead of 120 vac.
Thanks
Yup, tech assit beats lengthy call holds with bad music!
My last 2, 2013 and 2019, travel trailers both developed frame failure. Lippert junk!
This poor manufacture response is going to be a huge problem real quick. I have a feeling that a bunch of RV owners are going to get pissed and will get the government involved and laws will be passed to have some over site on the manufactures.
Hope you hit the 100K subscriber mark soon! Best wishes
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Speaking as an attorney, yes, you have virtually no legal rights when you buy one of these things. Don't do it unless you enjoy gambling with large sums of money. You have far more rights when buying a car.
First time seeing your channel, nice job. Subscribed....
Awesome, thank you!
Grand design wants to charge for fixing the frames. They fix the problem by telling the frame manufacturer to build a stronger frame. Why do I have to start out paying 16000 dollars to have a frame fix. And that's just to start