I haven't watched the video yet, I just wanted to chime in that low power formats are the only way for me to truly enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh. Some kind of Progression series is one of them, and probably one of the more common ones in this day and age, but there are more things you can cook up. Some kind of Auction Series too, though that is definitely much more work to organise (and the auctioneer can't really participate himself).
The fighting game community has been having this exact discussion for like a decade. Street fighter 6 was a huge breakthrough because it's the first time a street fighter game REALLY did a good job showing new players real situations. Instead of just giving them combo trials and an open-ended training mode, it presents new players with REAL in-game situations and provides solutions (like, "what do i do if my opponent jumps at me?). Fighting games did a terrible job with new-player experience until EXTREMELY recently. Capcom addressed the situation, so can Konami.
Capcom also introduced modern controls for those who suck at inputs. Congratulations you now have one button special moves and two button supers. Welcome to The FGC
Although both communities share an issue with onboarding new players, I don't know if your assessment is an accurate representation of why the FGC community is growing. Fighting Games have, for a very long time, failed to have proper tutorials that dove into the nuances of the genre such as frame data, frame traps, set ups, Meaty's, Shimmies, whiff punishes etc... However, there have been games with incredible tutorials, such as Skullgirls, Killer Instinct, Thems Fightin Herds, ggxrd, etc... Good tutorials have not historically, at least in my opinion, been the thing that has retained new players on their own. In the FGC, we have seen the simplification of inputs over time. From as far back as MvC1 with Simple Mode and its subsequent entries in the series, to CvS2 EO and more, to the more "recent" introduction of Auto Combos, to the limitation of motions inputs removing DP motions and the outright removal of motion inputs in certain instances. SF6 went the extra mile and successfully incorporated a single player mode that familiarizes the player with the controls (of which includes Modern Controls) without it feeling like homework and added customization incentives for their avatar to continue playing in an open world type setting that they can then show off in the Battle Hub. World Tour, in my opinion, went a long way for player retention as a tutorial in disguise, so I agree with you in that regard, however it crucially also needed the addition of Modern Controls. Whether we like it or not, physical execution is a barrier for new players. I'm sure there's a Yugioh parallel for that somewhere that I can't think of right now. Fighting games and Yugioh have a lot of overlap in my opinion, they are both incredibly complex past the surface level however, for example, a new player just doesn't get to play the game when they play against established players. A newcomer sees Ryu and thinks back to a childhood moment of Ryu vs Ken and Hadoukens and Shoryuken and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku sound bites and they'll want to try it out. Or they'll see Goku and Vegeta in DBFZ and want to play with them. Not unlike a person seeing Blue Eyes or the Dark Magician and wanting to try out the game. They'll hop online without any execution and then they'll get put in block strings that lead to frame traps and they'll mash only to fall right into the trap and get counter hit, god forbid they get put in the corner or try to jump in on the established player or... not even know how to deal with projectiles. The new player just never got to play. They'll go online and vent about how sweaty people are and how fighting games suck and then never play that game again. With the skill floor being raised through the help of Auto Combos, Simple Inputs and in game mechanics however, a new player gets to interact. "Everyone can be Daigo". Sure they'll still get bodied by established players but they'll feel like they're doing cool shit by just mashing buttons and fights with people around their skill level will be flashier than without any of the mentioned mechanics. Hell, sometimes the simplified controller layout can actually out perform classic controls, as we're seeing more and more new players making higher ranks in SF6 with Modern Controls (and that's not even exploring how pros are using them). A good tutorial, especially one that is disguised so it doesn't feel like homework, such as the World Tour in SF6, combined with the decade+ culmination of input simplification goes a long way for accessibility. There's a reason every new fighting game continues to incorporate features that "simplify" the genre further and the numbers don't lie, there are still failures, like DNF Duel and GBVS but in the macro scale, it's working whether the community likes it or not. There is still a deep well of nuance to the genre, but the skill floor is being raised over time. All that to say, I'm not too sure a good tutorial will be the ticket for Yugioh. Like fighting games, it is incredibly complex with tons of legacy knowledge checks. An incredible tutorial will help, sure, but just like Fighting Games, it'll need to be in conjunction with ways to make the game more accessible to newcomers. Master Duel has shown that being a generous F2P game isn't enough to retain a significant portion of newcomers.
For me I had to learn fighting games from guilty gear strive which I will say has a really good tutorial on everything and teaches you pretty well along with some complicated stuff if you want to learn but don't need at the beginning.
I feel like Master Duel was supposed to be the "Street Fighter 6" of Yugioh, like Master Duel was Konami's attempt to help introduce new players to Yugioh and now they are scrambling to find a new solution after Master Duel wasn't as effective as they thought it was going to be.
@@Always.Smarterhonestly yeah, a yugituber started the “it’s morbin time” meme and somehow the same mentality stretched across the internet with that one
The biggest issue that is consistently coming up is that, unlike all of the other card games, YuGiOh demands a high level of knowledge about the individual cards themselves. The way the cards are written, designed (both individually and as archetypes) and played mean that players can't reactively play against cards they've ever seen before with only mechanics and systems to guide them. Most of this is because of the lack of a universal resource system like mana or memory, and the other half of it is that most effects aren't indicative of an end board and name other specific cards. And you can't fix those things without also getting rid of the very things that the core yugioh audience likes, the high speed of the game and the big combos. On a strictly mechanical level, Yugioh is not significantly more complex than other TCGs. Its barrier to entry isn't about individual mechanics, it's the fact that even someone who knows all of the mechanics still has to know all of the individual cards because cards reference other cards and you need a working knowledge of their combo lines before the match starts.
100% this. A tutorial of mechanics & systems gets you 80-90% of the way to playing something like pokemon or mtg, while that last 10-20% can be picked up in-game by seeing how your opponent's board gets built, sussing out their strategy, and reacting accordingly. And you have time to do this in games like pokemon & mtg because there is a finite amount of actions that can be taken and cards are much more easily digestible in what they do. Yugioh is the complete reverse; Mechanics & systems knowledge only gets you that first 10-20%, and the overwhelming majority of the complexity is trying to determine on-sight what this college essay of text is trying to do, but by the time you do that it has turned into 7 other cards that all have their own essay of text, and by the time you finish your opponent has this unkillable board and you realize the only way you could have stopped them was not to stop the card that you took the time to read, but to stop the card they played 3 cards before that.
yeah, and? most competitive games require a high level of knowledge to be good at them Any game that doesnt is just a mindless clicker, why do you need a card game to be a clicker? there are lots of trash mobile games you can go play instead Its not a problem, its a good thing, weeds out 2heads. Just so you know, i left yugioh about the time when pendulums were released, and came back with the release of master duel. So this is coming from someone who had to learn 10 years of meta in one go.
This is my take as a Yugioh player with 20+ years of experience: until Master Duel has a button that says "Edison Format" on it, where you press it and you get to play Edison Format, content creators can STFU about Edison Format as a viable excuse for new players having a miserable entry experience
@@pitsa9838except that's not true, onepiece starts good, but it gets better and better with time, it also starts super simple and welf conteined but get progressively deeper more complex and open as you follow it. Yugioh on the other hand demands you know all mechanics and interactions and syntax loop holes for you to play it even remotely decently. The curve is the exact opposite, the only thing you could say they have in common is the time investment.
that is ooo true. I reallonly play the game now because I have kept up for decades on the side and when masterduel came out, it wasnt that big of a plunge to get myself fully familiar again.
I always think that yugioh is the dota 2 of card game, compare it to other game with the same genre theyre too different, too complex for beginner to play.
I think what this discussion shows... Master Duel needs a lot of new formats. Draft, Time Wizard, a severely limited Beginner Mode etc. Discussions like this might give Konami some attention over the subject
@@hopkinsstefan454 I didn't say to use the first one lmao. I said to let new players play decks similar to them. Honestly it's way better than just getting blown out by tier 1 stuff straight out of the tutorial.
I don't see the point in waiting for Konami to take action when the playerbase is probably far more equipped at undertaking this sort of thing. If players show more interest, start purchasing products in that direction, and start putting in the work to make more formats available to players, then Konami will probably not notice it.
If all yugitubers combine their powers, maybe they can turn this guy who hates yugioh into a guy who hates yugioh but still can't stop playing it. Like us :)
I loved the immediate banter, you should do more colabs with him. I'd be interested to see an experience with you playing hearthstone with him and him playing yugioh with you :D
I can't even be mad at rarran. He was overwhelmed and chat was balls to the wall memeing on him and confusing him even further. So yeah the guy tilted Hella hard and it was justified.
I don't necessarily agree, I was there, and I didn't see chat meme on him so hard. Like yes, there was a few comment, but many times he mistook comments supporting him, as an attack.
@@trokolisz3702that's still kinda understandable. He is good in games which hold your hand tight during your experience thus it kinda sucks to find yourself unable to understand what the game is about. It's copium yes, but I can feel him. Chat might have been supportive but suggesting salad over Maids it's like suggesting a shotgun to someone struggling using a sling.
@@lixiang4051 nah I see a farfa playing coach series coming up, it would add info to the "why yugioh is bad for new players" thing he's been doing recently
4:00 That really depends on the game. Yugioh isnt like an rpg, or a sandbox, or a shooter, where you as an individual will knowingly get the chance to interact with other individuals. Yugioh is like a fighting game constantly on ranked. And like with many fighting games when you enter a match online you run the risk that if you dont know the mechanics inside and out, you will get you sh*t wrecked by a player who does know these mechanics and can win the game with out losing any real amount of health.
except most fighting games don't have fighters that say well I got first hit put down your controller I have won and there is nothing you can do about it, most fighting games have comeback mechanics, most fighting games are easy to understand but hard to master, Yugioh is none of these things it's like getting thrown into masters in a fighting game blindfolded with both your hands broken and people screaming why aren't you wining
@@michaelkehaYou can literally get bodied as a new player in a fighting game before you get a chance to a land a punch, so the comparison stands and works pretty well. Additionally, there always have been incredibly powerful characters in the FGC, just like there are incredibly powerful decks and individual cards in any TCG. Just like how you can get destroyed for going into ranked in a fighting game before properly learning about the game, you can also get destroyed in Yu-Gi-Oh for not knowing how to deckbuild or how to use your going second cards properly. The only line separating both is that you can also be unlucky and not draw well, but that's expected of what literally a card game where you _randomly_ pull cards from a deck.
@@michaelkeha In a fighting game you ultimately have three distinct things. Your knowledge, Your Skill, and The data of how the game functions. Your understanding of these thing is what makes or break you being able to actually play against those who know how to play. Resource is a non factor for this very same reason. There are broken decks, the same way there are broken characters. But people with actual skill and knowhow do wayyy better with (and sometimes without) those decks/characters than those who dont. This is why just like with a fighting game in reality it takes more than just an hour or two of practice to actually know the game.
26:44 I have no idea how Rarran managed to fumble up what's actually going on lol For anyone who's interested, bots aren't used to best players. Bots are used to farm gold on multiple accounts to allow you to enter an Arena run, the draft mode in Hearthstone. Someone manually drafts the cards. If the drafted cards result in a less-than-insane deck, they retire from the arena run (ie. Forfeit) and continue letting the bots farm gold. But when they eventually hit that 1-in-a-100 deck, they either play on it and post it online to get views, or sell it to someone who enjoys steamrolling others by just having a more OP deck. It's like, imagine I play against you and we both make completely random decks. But if I look through my deck and don't like it, I can make another completely random deck. If I still don't like that I can make another and so on. Then after I reset for a hundred times and get the god-tier deck, then I decide to play a game with you.
Farfa literally ignored the multiple formats we had with ftk bots. Remember when u had to run a 13 card extra cause that was literally the only way to counter the ftk.
"Yu-gi-oh is bad because....." "No no no, you're right, it is all those things. Its good though I promise, just ignore the bad." Seems like a pretty simple conclusion.
I think the best explanation is Yugioh's archetypes are like Magic's colors, but instead of there only being 5 colors, there's 100+ and most of them play a completely different game than conventional Yugioh. I think Master Duel would benefit if Konami instituted a tier system in ranked for archetypal cards based on the usage and win statistics, similar to what Smogon does for Pokemon Showdown. This would also give incentive for people to put their gems towards lower power decks.
and they all share staple pieces that don' infer anything about their archetype. legends of runeterra, mtg and hearthstone reveal something about the deck you're fighting before a spell resolves.
@@Hawko1313When YGO was first conceived, the potential difference in decks was not immense enough to trigger that thought. These days the existance of a hint like that would end some matches at turn 0 :v Mainly because forfeiting upon seeing that you're done does become a habit..
people will shoot down this idea by splitting hairs about tier 1 vs tier 3, when its actually a totally reasonable to make wide tiers, e.g. top 50 decks, next best 150 decks, so on. it would just require effort on konami’s part to not break every tier and make it non-competitive, so its not gonna happen
Some of the most fun I've had playing master duel is from allowing my rank to drop so I can climb with worse decks till I get back up to start playing more high power rogue decks
Rarran brought up the term "early game", which made me realize that yugioh kinda doesnt have that. Yugioh basically has turn 1, where you either drew a bricky hand that cant do much or youre doing your combo. Then i suppose you could say that the 2nd players first turn (turn 2) is the "mid game", since games usually doesnt last longer than 4 or so turns, but at the same time that is the first time that one of the players can even do anything substancial (other than handtraps). The "end game" is turn 3 or 4, depending on who was able to break the other players board the fastest and then basically attack with everything for game. Card games like hearthstone, runeterra and mtg lets players grow their boards and set themselves up at an (almost) equally fast pace, such that when the leading player has set up, the other player has set up quite a bit as well, whereas in yugioh it is basically the going second player trying to survive what the first turn player has set up, while trying to set up as much as possible themselves and when/if they outpace the first turn player they will go to attack. I would like to draw a paralell to the game of chess. Its a really easy game to learn but infinately complex when trying to master it. The non-yugioh card games that Rarran is referrencing like hearthstone, runeterra and mtg are paced the same way as chess is. Both players takes turns moving their pieces, one by one. Yugioh on the other hand is designed such that if we were to play chess with yugiohs pacing, each player would move pieces 10 times each, and then pass their turn so their opponent can move pieces 10 times and so on. TLDR; Comparing yugioh to other card games are like comparing apples to bread, it is just that different.
Glad someone saw it like this. Like the difference between losing to a much better player and deck between the mtg, yugioh and hearthstone is so little. In yugioh if your opponent sets up a board you can't break you've lost, why play just pick up your cards. In mtg if your opponent has just the better deck you play the illusion of cards. None of your cards really matter you don't have a clean out to your opponents game plan. Even in hearthstone. The couple of turns you play doesn't really matter if your opponent has control of the board or a combo you can't interact with. The difference is that when u lose to a deck in yugioh it looks really good like you stood no chance, in mtg and hearthstone you still stood no chance but it's hard to tell.
I had the same thought in story telling terms yugioh goes from the prologue straight to epilogue, while all the other card games have a gradual build up to the grand finale.
@@Xeraxil That's a really weird deterministic way of looking at it. That's more philosophical than it is practical. The truth is, at least in terms of hs bc I've never played mtg, is that at every step of the game, you do stand a chance. It's not 'decided beforehand' and therefore 'giving you an illusion of gameplay.' idk why people keep saying this. I mean you can say that about everything. Like if I got run over by a car today you could say ah, I had the illusion of life, I had no chance against the car that was going to hit me 8 hours from now. Like, okay sure? But what does that have to do with anything?
@@hugomendoza5665 The difference is the feeling of "I stood no chance against this person" that is very obvious in yugioh and not in any other game. The difference in your analogy would be like if you could see that your demise is guaranteed by the car a year before vs you not knowing it, but there is nothing you can do to stop said car. Both end in a sad way yet they are seen as two different things? (Assuming the person able to see the future does not augment their way of life around the car) The truth is that a new person should not be able to win against a veteran player with a better deck in any game. A game that breaks this constantly would be a game that is heavily reliant on luck.
Yeah, most card games have a very steady and clear gamestate that’s tied to the power of cards and the resources they require. Yugioh has very unintuitive phasing. The first turn, power scaling is highest, since you have 5 cards in hand and a full deck and extra. Decks usually exhaust their main line, which they can do at most twice (usually), sometimes once like DL. Then, if the game isn’t decided, secondary engines, grind game, and sweepers duke it out until a player goes for lethal or is exhausted of cards. It’s a really unintuitive way for a card game to play out, especially if every other relevant game uses some variation of a steady growth of power, with different kinds of decks peaking at different points in the game.
There should be a duel mode even if it was a solo mode that lets you play different decks thru out yugiohs life span Like choose the 4 most prominent decks of each year and make them into structure decks and you can switch between each one Hell doesnt even need to go that far make it like by eras 4 synchros xyzs fusion etc decks
It should be a fine-tuned one, not like the very first Duel Trial where we played only one copy of the structure deck. That was not a well-functioned deck at all.
Perhaps this sort of exposure and debate and discussion will make Konami look at how they try to introduce the game to new players. Master Duel is certainly flawed. Personally, I feel the best way is to start incredibly basic and progress through the years of releases as the power increases.
If konami was not so greedy and stupid, new players would be given a Spright deck, with 3 nimble beaver, 2 blue. 2 starter. 2 giant. 2 elf. 1 sprind. Masquerena, Avramax and Goddess of the closed world. It is an extremely simple deck which is incredibly nonlinear and has a high skill ceiling making it great for the player to learn the mechanics and have enough power to play the game at the adults table. But that shit is never happening because konami cares more about money than the game itself. Undeniably. .
Is it perfect no. But Rarran also by his own admittance didn’t even play through all of the tutorial before deciding to jump into ranked. I don’t disagree that the introduction for Master Duel needs improvement, but rarran also went into the whole thing with a huge amount of ego and arrogance that his skill at other TCGs would be enough to make him competent when nothing else really plays like YGO. Also dude got straight up trolled being told to start with Dragonmaid and Salads. He got set up for failure screwed himself more and then cried wolf and accidentally was kinda right
"you didn't play the game right" is such a shit argument. Do you expect a nine yo to look at a blue eyes, think oh that's cool I'll try ygo and immediately know dragon link combo routes, labrynth choke point and how to side against kash? No, this game is too competitive and has no learning curve or casual format or format that is FUN for new players.
You’re not wrong, but you are crazy for thinking it would be easy to get into a game with over 20+ years of game knowledge and power creep and expect to do a good job without having learned a damn thing.
@@emannuelsepulveda7259 Chess has 1500+ years of game knowledge and power creep. People actually not only write books, but have whole libraries of chess works. Multiple magazines in every language are printed about chess now. And yet, children are introduced from the age of 5. Chess also has a handicapping system for skill levels.
@@JustAManFromThePast yea but as you said yourself, “introduced at the age of 5” of course they’re gunna learn as would a person who was introduced to Yugioh at the age of 5.
@@emannuelsepulveda7259 I gonna be real with you. I played YGO for 17 years. Started as a playground kid that had 5 black holes and became semi-competitive in ranked ygo pro and other simulators (not netdecking bc f that). I didn't have the money but loved the game. Took a 5 year long break. Came back and the game is not fun anymore (besides edison and goat). I started getting into MTG a few days ago and the game is far older than YGO. It is easier to learn and understand while still offering a lot of complexity. YGO is more complex and the potential is there, but there is a fundamental issue with how the game was designed and got mechanics bloat. And the amount cope YGO players have is staggering.
The problem with yugioh is that knowledge of the basic rules doesnt carry over to how decks play. Archetypes are so self referential that in order to do well you cant just be good at yugioh, you have to be good at your deck and good at countering common decks
I’m only about 15 minutes in, but I absolutely adore this content. Two adults having a rational conversation about things they’re passionate about, both being respectful, and neither getting that heated. 10/10
17:03 I have the answer to that question Farfa and it's a really simple one. Hearthstone and yugioh are VASTLY different games with VASTLY different systems and mechanics. Most of the things you learn playing Hearthstone, MTG, Runeterra, etc. Do not carry over in any way to yugioh. There's no mana system in yugioh, so learning to build a deck on curve doesn't carry over. Compared to other games that have synergies that you can analyze on a card to card basis, with yugioh any synergy contributues to a huge combo string that you need to memorize, So any knowledge of deck building synergy doesn't carry over. Essentially every important aspect you learn playing other card games will never carry over to yugioh. Even if you came from yugioh before it won't help because the game evolves and changes it's core principles so drastically that someone who played back in the early synchro era will likely be extremely confused on how to build a deck now. As someone who's played yugioh on and off for years at a time, this felt like an obvious answer to me.
Not to mention skill on a match is also very knowledge depending. Knowing what your opponent is going for is so important, especially in yugioh where turn 1 is the equivalent of the late turns of mana-driven card games. Farfa is literally comparing a dude who can see what class the oponent is playing in HS and have an idea of what deck he may be playing vs playing yugioh with a literal blindfold on to any move the opponent makes.
Yugioh deck building for beginners 101 1. Netdeck 2. Now learn how to play your deck bozo 3. You know your deck now? Here's the techs you can use in your deck bozo.
Yugioh’s beginning is other card games end game unless you bricked your draw Thing is the reason I personally dont like current yugioh is that there is no back and forth, no mind games, Yugioh is currently more like a power fantasy where you’re op from the start, whereas I’m into progressive fantasy series where you get stronger over time Different flavors
i love how they are just casually roasting the shit out of eachother and its all still good laughs at the end of the day. lot of respect ro both of you
I wish they brought up the fact that most people don't get into Yu-Gi-Oh blind like Rarran did. Everyone I've seen get into the game is because they've joined with a friend who helps them explain a deck or they see a deck they like on UA-cam or in the anime. So even if they don't know what every card in the game does they've had an outside source explain what their deck does, then it's a lot less overwhelming because you only need to learn how your opponents deck functions
He did that when he was building that Salad deck and still failed. At that point, the only thing at fault there is his refusal to understand what the f is goin on during the game. He even failed to grasp the core Dragonmaid gameplay which is both funny and sad. Fucking Sykkuno and Luslie were able to grasp the concept of modern YGO gaming. The only logical conclusion is that, Rarran was already dead set on not accepting complicated shit like modern YGO from the moment he boots up MD. The terrible matches he got into is the final hit to his guts.
@shinyanakagawa8241 Honesty, it was almost comedical how he didn't want to read his cards or see the tutorials and then immediately ran into Rikka, one of the most wacky yet strong combo decks
Except that's only half of the story. When players had outside help, they are more likely to keep playing. So the "most" people you are talking about are only the ones that stayed. Master duel was one of the most played games on steam for the first week, but lost most of its players right after. That speaks for itself and shows that "most" actual players problably didn't have a guide and quit just like Rarran, only a couple hours after trying it out. I think we need to look at the potential this new wave of players had and how much of a wasted opportunity this was. This game could be way more popular if there were ways build-in to the game to help new players.
Current yugioh reminds me so much of fighting games. When you first pick it up you play story mode and button mash your way to the end of story mode. Then you go to online thinking you stand a chance and get paired into players that have put the work into being actually good at the game and have spent time learning and understanding the game. That wall is so reminiscent of going from solo mode to pvp in master duel
And it was always something the fighting community pointed out as a flaw. This is why after complaining for so long they finally added a way for new players to actually learn the game in sf6.
@@amuro9624 Tbf like half of the SF6 community are STILL complaining about that being added. A lot like ygo players they'll never be happy unless they have something to complain about
Seriously. I played Tekken and managed to beat the AI in story mode at 2nd hardest difficulty. Played online and just kept dying to people spamming the best moves that most players who have experience know how easy it is to punish but I couldn't figure out and just kept dying to low after low attacks and could barely get a hit in. Took me days to figure out how to counter those moves.
as someone who actively engages with a lot of new fighting game players, even with all the new tools that sf6 gives you to learn the game between world tour/modern controls/better tutorials/better training mode, new players will still complain about getting combo'd, not being allowed to press buttons, etc. People will always complain about things they do not understand.@@amuro9624
I can hear what rarran is saying. I just recently started playing magic and the learning curve has been super intense since i have a ygo background. The mana system and translating card game skills between the two is difficult. The games just play so different at a base level.
I like how Rush Duels format their cards. All of the information like type, stats, Levels, etc are clearly displayed and understood at a glance. Also the text box clearly says in bold “here’s the requirement to use effect” and right below “Here’s the effect”. Breaking up the paragraph of text like that really helps processing the card.
I keep saying this, but idk why some players keep off putting rush duel. Yeah, it's simpler and very different, but damn doesn't it solve so many problems people normally have with the current format of yugioh
Farfa's point about it being a social experience is actually so true. I am lucky enough to have friends that play so I would go to their locals and my opponents would teach me what their deck and cards did so I could sort of know how to maneouvre around their board. That's probably the biggest struggle with Master Duel and why they need weaker formats to help people play Master Duel, because the only format in MD is the current format which is incredibly power crept, and you don't have another person there to sort of help you through it.
Congratulations, you just described *every single tcg to ever exist.* There isn't a single card game that is designed to be played alone. Other than a purely digital game like Hearthstone, they all primarily focus on playing in-person at locals and grow by word of mouth & watching people play. That has zero bearing on the fact that yugioh is uniquely problematic in that it's barrier to entry is not mechanical knowledge, but rather the requirement of a near encyclopedic knowledge of what every card does and how it interacts with every other card in the game. I can sit down with a person whose never played pokemon before, teach them the mechanics, and hand them a deck. Even if they lose or have to ask about an occassional card, there is a good chance they could still play through a game of pokemon with just that mechanical knowledge & pick up the specific knowledge about individual cards as they play. That's impossible in yugioh because the amount of specific card knowledge needed for a person to play their own deck, let alone follow & react to their opponent's, completely dwarfs the mechanical knowledge needed and is unreasonable for a new player to be able to pick up and retain in a reasonable timeframe.
Farfa dude you need a lesson on being respectful during debates. Acting butthurt over perceived attacks, laughing at your opponent, and insulting your opponent’s intelligence is not the right way to debate. When you show no respect, you get no respect.
I think rastafarian has a lot of valid point, but, I mean, if you play various cardgames you can’t activate cynet mining discarding gazzelle and add gazelle 🤷🏻♂️
Right, and in other games like Souls games or MOBAs you do need coaching. That’s the reality. Yugioh has a healthy player base, if we look at online card games itself.
@@KevinGonzalez-hs7so Yugioh is pretty much at or near peak popularity rn in both paper and online. We are still breaking records for IRL tournaments.
I think saying why haven’t your skills at hearthstone transferred to Yugioh is logically flawed. Yes they are both card games but that’s like saying why aren’t you good at poker since you’ve played blackjacks before? Two different games with different rules. Yugioh it seems is far more complicated than hearthstone.
Konami really should make a structure deck only format, ranked structure deck matches and stuff, and call the standard format "advanced", unlocked after some sort of rank reached on structure deck rankeds. I think pure structure decks are pretty balanced to a learning level, where you get used to what you are supposed to do to play the game.
The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm. Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling. But konami loves money more than they love their players or actually making master duel a playable game.
i mean they have structure in their name, they serve has quick invest in an archetype or a specific type of deck, u don't get the big card for most of them i'll take the zombie structure from MD since i play zombie in tcg format : scapegoat, pain painter, zombie master, onmoraki, samurai skull, guard ghost, Koa'ki Meiru Ghoulungulate, Red Ogre, Overpowering Eye, Ghost of a Grudge, Reject Reborn, The Deep Grave are either too slow or basicly useless but where are the solitaire shiranui ? where the nethersoul with super poly ? where the vampire sucker ? even worse where dharc ? oh and did i mention it come without balerdroch so pretty much no win condition structure deck would make a terribly slow, unoptimised, unfun, and un balanced format so even worse to learn the game the best way to learn is by playing with friend and some good old rogue deck not by going against konami whales with kashtira
But that's the point, this is too much to learn from the start. New players don't need to pilot a full power zombie deck, they need to learn how to pilot a standard zombie deck. To get used to the mechanics, the wording, and possibilities of the game. Then, when learning how to play the standard format, they don't get upset as Ranran did, for just not knowing what was happening. A structure deck only format, makes it easy to balance the matches, so stuff like structure dragonmaid doesn't get stomped by full power dragon link. They have to be slow, so they can play the game They can't learn how to play the game, if they don't get a chance to play the game. And yeah, the access for powerful staples should be easier, but the bundle packs are there for a reason. They can also use that as something for a format like that I'm not saying something out of reality That's literally what used to be in pokémon tcg online If u r new to the game, u were locked into pvp starter decks only format (Ig they removed that from PTCG Live bc the game is extremely easy lol) If it's unfun to you, it's fine, ofc it'd be for us, as a player i rather play the fast combo pace game that I'm used to. I love yugioh with all my heart. But we are talking about a new player experience, so ofc our enjoyment, as regular players, shouldn't be considered when organizing something like that.
i get ur point and mostly agree Yu gi oh is way more complex than most of the other TCG u NEED to go check for ressources, guides, video, watch matches to understand thing ppl won't hold back at local cuz ur new they'll say sorry and still put 10 negate on the board learning yu gi oh is like learning league of legend, so many characters and items combinations u need to be aware of or else u get blasted and therefore have hard time getting in it's clearly not beginner friendly and rush duel will compensate that but will not be helpfull if u wanna taste the sauce of the real deal i've seen some short of MD where a guy play zombie against old PK rongho dude was complaining about a 5 material rongho ash, droll, nibiru, effect veiler, imperm and pretty much all handtrap shutdown PK entire turn the true problem in MD is that is one game not Bo3 with sidding
I'm a YGO player, I haven't played any other card game for longer than 5 hours and I found Rarran to be 100% correct while Farfa was coping hard, and also being rude sometimes. The One Piece analogy is good, I think most people have nostalgia for YGO from 15-20 years ago and kept up with the game more or less over the years. Getting in really is like watching 1000 episodes of One Piece to catch up, super hard especially for an adult. I personally couldn't get into any other card game because I don't have that history with any of them and if Rarran can't get into YGO, that's fair and there's no need to force him, the might hate it even more.
Farfa kinda showed his ignorance at 40:17 with the keyword bit. Magic achieves a similar level of complexity to Yugioh with the use of keywords, it's really not impossible
Honestly, someone in the comments brought up a great point, Where all other card games and like Yugioh back in 2010's Yugioh now has become more like a fighting game in that a pro can single combo every newbie to oblivion and only someone who knows the game has to have luck on his side to survive the onslaught and reverse the game into his favor. But unlike fighter games, Master Duel gives you a single chance while fighter games give you a 2 out of 3 life system before facing someone else. (And it doesn't help that you or your opponent can press the surrender button at any time with the only repercussion being you accepted a loss and moved on to the next game within seconds. victory's became hollow because the next match is a coin flip on whether or not you keep it)
Not only does mana help communicate to the player when something is generally available and when to start thinking about or reading that card but Richard Garfield had a very interesting take on why lands were great in Magic. Lands have always been a contentious thing since the excess or lack of them really can swing a game in your opponent’s favor. Garfield said something along the lines of: Lands were great because when you taught someone the game, they could look at their opening hand and theoretically half the cards in their hand immediately convey information to the player about whether or not their hand is good. Pretty much because lands are a resource, and have little to no text. If you have 1 land, it’s quick to know it’s a bad hand, same as 5+. But if you have 2-4 lands, you know to now read the rest of your hand because this is likely playable.
I think the problem lies in there is a "correct" way to play a Yugioh deck and if you're not playing that way wont have a good time, so what kinda needs to happen is someone needs to be there telling exactly what cards to play and what to do, and you do that until he by himself starts to be able to do it then at that point he might start to enjoy it when he knows the "correct" way to play
People start hearthstone by thinking "I want to play a card game, maybe I should try it out" But for yugioh, people usually start from "Someone I know is playing YGO, maybe I should try it out" If a person find yugioh hard at first, they have more motivation to stick with yugioh because they want to play yugioh, isn't any card games, at least that how I felt personally
thats a terrible design and it mean you will never get new blood into your game. which mean the game will just die overtime... have fun with your empty game soon :)
@@phatal4573There are many ways even if you don't have friends who play yugioh, 'someone you know' doesn't require the other person knowing you after all. For example a streamer who plays collab with one who doesn't, a viewer starts after watching a streamer plays etc.
The number 1 skill of yugioh is learning when you don't need to read cards. Really, gotta know what your opponent's deck does and how yours can counter it, but that really is a decent chunk of knowledge to learn all at once, after learning all the mechanics of the game.
Honestly if it wasn't for friends of mine to coach on the 20 years of yugioh I missed I would be as tilted as Rarran. He's in a blessed atmosphere; if he gives any subscriber or mod their chance in the sun to teach him a bit of modern yugioh he'd be more patient with it.
The game just needs to guide new players through the whole timeline. Having a format for every evolutionary step in the game would help a lot. Like having to play 10 games in "Generation 1" before unlocking Synchro, then 10 of those to unlock xyz and so on. Like that you have natural tiers to play where you want to play and you learn all the different rules along the way. It will dilute the player pool, but it will also get a lot of new players. And if ranked stayes as the most recent format, then everybody will land there eventually.
i mean that's great, but it still doesn't solve the issues of TEXT LONG it will take you literal months upon months to get even a basic grasp of what every deck can do not to mention the sheer magnitude of fuckery going on, like how "send to the GY" is different from "destroy" and so on and the other issue being that you need to watch almost an entire anime episode before it's your turn, and then it's time for the opponent to do the same, so on and so forth i like yugioh, but holy shit i have absolutely no idea where to even begin when it comes to introducing new players to it, or if it's even a good idea to do so anyways
Plus it gives the yugi boomers a place to play tge fans they like within an official engine And just let everyone get a break from 50 chain link summons and sometimes you just need the relaxation (especially if you do primarily play synchros or fusions so wouldn’t feel the sting of losing asiexts of the deck as bad) Also structure deck mode where you pick a structure deck and have only a couple simple additional cards to augment them I know I’d certainly play that since immortal glories the only thing u have experience with
I think something that would help people get past that complexity barrier would be a bot fuel mode with a few difficulty levels you can select from, and at each difficulty there are a bunch of premade decks of that level of complexity/power that the bot uses. So like very easy starts out DM era slow, medium is like a combo that ends on maybe 1 or 2 decent extra cards, and very hard is close to what youd go against in decently high ranks. It would allow people to slowly ramp up their understanding while also being able to understand their deck more and more each step of the way
The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm. Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling. But konami loves money more than they love their players or acrually making master duel a playable game.
@@SkyFireYZthe guy only played 3 steps of the tutorial and didn't want to play solo mode. Do you really think that more tutorial or bots would have helped? As he said "he wants to play against other players".
this was a necessary video because everything, EVERYTHING Rarran is saying is correct from the perspective of a new player. Farfa tries SO HARD to be like "but this" but he knows that what Rarran is saying, is correct.
He's not wrong though. Rarran felt the overwhelming pressure of not knowing what you're facing when you hit the pvp button. I last played when synchros were a thing back in 2012, to return to a world where Link climbing exist? It's just too much information, really. He was a bit stubborn and his chat, I was there btw, literally trolled him by making him play link decks. Salamangreat is a easy deck to understand... but you need to learn weeks of knowledge of link summoning, combos etc. His chat trolled him harder than Farfa's, that's surprising.
Also the first story modes where they teach you summoning mechanics and dmg step would have been good to do just to understand a bit. It’s like he only learnt how the pawn moves but not the knight or bishop.
Salamangreat is only difficult to play if you don't know the basic rulings of the game. If you know the rulings of link summoning, xyz summoning, trigger effects etc, then salads is not too difficult to get into. Yugioh isn't the kind of game where you learn a lot of the basic rules by playing. You already need that knowledge to have fun, which makes it different from other card games.
@@plzcme434I disagree on Salamangreat part. Sure, the deck itself and it's lines aren't that complicated (although not that obvious either), however the way you play Sunlight Wolf/Heatsoul control - is. You need to know what you're playing against to effectively use your handtraps and roar/rage to not get immediately blown away, otherwise the deck loses most of its strength. This is why Rarran should've sticked to Dragonmaids or any other deck that aims to execute it's own combo rather than hindering opponent's.
@@plzcme434But that’s what he’s saying is the problem though. It’s not inherently bad that yugioh is that way, but it’s bad that that information is not given to new players from the get go. As someone who has tried to get people to play the game, this is the main thing that really drives people away.
The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm. Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling. But konami loves money more than they love their players or actually making master duel a playable game.
no not really, we pretty much already have that the problem is the continental difference between there and the actual game with a beginner format, how in the hell do you expect to get people to ever leave it?
If you take the chess analogy again, the start requirement for yugioh might be like higher level chess, where a lot of skill is also in knowing possible moves that have been played in the past and how to counter them. In yugioh you have to know your own deck as well as the opponents decks and their possible moves and ways to counter them.
Prediction: Buttermilk Rarranch will soon feel like re-dabbling in Yu-Gi-Oh! and he will hate it again.. But then after a week or so he will feel like logging back in and playing a few games again... He will slowly build a stronger deck that feels rewarding to win with. And within a year he will understand the pull to this debatably awful game.
I think it should have been made clearer to rarran that the changes he wants can only be implemented by konami (as there are a lot ways through the community to learn the game already) and that konami doesn't really listen to any complaints the community makes so everyone basically agrees with is points but is aware that there is not a lot that can be done. People like Mbt,Farfa,cimoo and other big youtuber have been trying to promote alternate formats for years and konami just doesn't really care about it
8:51 I missed out in most of the synchro era, all of the Xyz and Pendulum era and jumped back into the deep ends with minor hiccups but I was able to understand most of what’s happening after like a month of fiddling around
On the topic of games having a tutorial and yugioh being difficult to really understand without a third party guide, that is like another level of tutorial. Most card games give you a tutorial of how to play the game, and that is often enough because it translates into most decks. Yugioh, however, almost requires a tutorial for each deck/archetype because of how drastically different the lines of play are from one to another. Every deck is it's own sub-card game.
I'm gonna throw this out there but my hearthstone experience was played ranked for like a week, got bored did some arena, and finally found that the most fun part of the game was actually the solo modes. And then i dropped it.
I think comparing Yugioh to a Rouge-Like/Souls-Like is a fair comparison. The game doesn’t give you much to work with at the start and it’s mostly down to trial and error. The main gameplay is dying over and over and over again while each time you learn a little bit more, each time you figure out something new; “oh, that’s how I damage that enemy”, “oh, that’s how I avoid that attack”. And you slowly build a knowledge base until you can play for hours without dying until you get blown out by something you’ve never seen before. I think if you take the losing as part of the game and with each loss your goal is to learn 1 small thing each time, it gets more fun.
I don’t think it’s like souls like or rougelit eat all. Simply put those games you go in trial and error get stronger over time Yugioh on the other hand is more like you’re OP from the start. Like a fighting game where you need to know your combo and the enemies combo down from the very beginning just by a look at their first few plays (turn 1-2) MtG and hearthstone is more like souls where you need to brawl out while establishing board state and following a mana curve (leveling in souls) Both games definitely require knowledge before you go meta like in any game
20: 40 The secret packs in shop do tell you their complexity and other attributes. But it’s weird that you can’t see all the secret packs on md. 21:36 There are loaner decks in events, to be fair. But better loaner decks for ranked would be grand.
I mean as someone who jumped into yugioh without any tcg knowledge beforehand, I thought it was just natural to look up a guide or some sorts of deck profiles and matches to understand yugioh and as I went to locals, lost a lot of matches and looked up other decks I faced, I understood the win conditions of other decks and cards that are present in the meta as well as learning how to play "optimally". Obviously, this development didnt come in 10 hours but spending a little time every other day of just watching matches or even just reading my cards and understanding my own win condition, greatly improved my skill and knowledge of the game. Tbh this is how I got into Digimon. Of course Rarran is right with his point that needing a third party guide to enjoy and understand a game is not optimal for a tcg and Master Duel as a TCG Simulator should absolutely stop with the illusion that learning how to normal/tribute summon is enough to go into the game. There absolutely needs to be a section like "here is a match against two meta decks, note the different mechanics they're using which you know/learned" like rarran said in this video. Yugioh in no shape or form is a shitty game, but it is complex right from the start because even low level decks have a rather complex playstyle for a newcomer which is why Master Duel should function as this guide for new players to introduce them into the game. Also, I'd like to say that, I introduced my friends into yugioh and basically, everyone enjoyed it and we are still playing it to this day . Of course they were getting demolished at the start and didnt understand but after explaining them the mechanics, how they lost and even themselves looking up how and why they lost, they ended up loving the game Also Rarran should just read his cards fr
Hard disagree. I genuinely think Yu-Gi-Oh is a poorly designed game. Getting into other TCGs is incredibly simple and even if the skill gap is wide you are at least able to understand the game. There are so many hidden mechanics in this game that every time you get past one wall, you hit another one. It's hard to ever get comfortable like that. And none of that is to mention card design. Can you imagine spending a week learning the game to a point where you're finally comfortable joining the rank ladder and the first deck you run into is something Arcana Force the world turbo or a deck like barrier statue stun? Decks that don't even let you play the game. Then imagine learning that those decks can't even hold a candle to the 15th best deck of the format? Even with PSCT, we have players that struggle to understand the difference between a cost and a condition or why The Tricky doesn't start a chain but Blaster does. If this game isn't friendly to veteran or returning players how do you think the common new player experience is? I didn't realize how bad it was until I started playing other card games seriously. I was able to hold my own in CFV and Digimon after 1 local tournament each. I understood how to play magic after my second match with a pre-built deck. Was ever ready to top a regional? No. But I had enough confidence to feel comfortable while playing the game. The learning curve with YGO is too steep to do it alone.
People like mbt or Raran who thinks it’s ridiculous to look up a guide are neck deep in boomer compium. I don’t care if you’ve never used a guide, some games and hobbies you need a hand to get into and that’s especially normalized these days and it’s not an unreasonable or bad thing
100% agree. When md came out, one of the first things i did after getting destroyed in ranked was look up what were the best decks, and after that a tri-brigade combo video. Going in blind again didn’t even cross my mind.
@@michaellockett4044 I don't think the example you provided is actually a good one. The World Turbo and Barrier Stun? Sure, those decks sound awful, but they've never been the norm in Yugioh. Neither of those decks have ever been so relevant even in a casual setting so it's pretty dumb. What's funny is the best decks in the game right now allow the player more chances to play than the random one-off floodgate deck so it doesn't really make your point that well. Even the current meta with Kashtira in it has far more back and forth now than those decks did when people were theorycrafting them only to discover they were pretty awful.
Farfa is coping if he thinks more people play master duels than Hearthstone. Hearthstones average players monthly is 5 million, Master Duels is around 20k
This all could have been avoided if someone in Rarran's chat told him to try an Invoked deck for his first deck instead of Salad. Easiest game in the world babyyyyy
invoked, swordsoul, sky striker, eldlich, etc there is a lot of archtypes that is very simple to play and understand and while salad isnt ritual beast hard its still not that easy of a deck when its win-con likely isnt clear for someone picking it up for the first time
The only thing I don't agree with this whole debacle is that so many people can get behind the idea of playing any game in isolation is remotely a good thing. Rarran's mistake is simply expecting to intuit every single game he played. It shows when he can't even make Seal turn 1 with his Dragonmaid or Heatsoul turn 1 with his Salad. Other than that, most of his arguments are solid. The bottom line is that MD as digital YGO is not new player friendly as they expect the player still ask a third party to teach the game.
a good game doesn't need guides and study to be able to play at a basic level yugioh does guides and the like are great if you want to go beyond that but when your starting point is here watch all these videos just to understand the basics you have failed as a game
@@michaelkehabasic level yugioh is easy, there's nothing overly hard or complicated. Yuhiohs problem is that you can't comprehend it in a day. Most people need more than a day to fully grasp all the card types and how they function with each other. It's like driving, you can learn all the basics in a day but your far from actually being able to go drive on the road well.
@@michaelkeha the issue is that you don't ever find yourself in an enviroment to get used to the basics, because, YGO is not a complicated game, the mechanics are quite simple to understand on their own. The fact that you don't have to worry about a resource system also makes deck building easier. Even the fucking card text is very intuititive once you know what PSCT is. the reason why modern YGO is complex is because it requires you to have an intimate knowledge of both how the different mechanics interact with each other and what the impact of card effects are. Dragon Maid, Dark Magician. They are not complicated decks, but even a beginner would struggle to understand what the impact of their plays actually means for the gamestate. Because Master Duel just throws you into a very deep pool and goes "lol learn to swim nerd"
@@michaelkeha He just needed to play the actual tutorial, he only did 1/3 of it and then jumped straight into ranked. Dragonmaids was a completely fine deck to learn the game with all things considered.
@@michaelkeha what are you talking about? Summoning Seal or Heatsoul is the bare minimum the deck can do and link summon into link climbing is literally taught in the Solo Mode (Duel Training gate). If he is unaware of that because he skips the tutorial, it's his mistake.
From my understanding, Hearthstone has 4500+ cards in "standard" format with 3000+ wild cards which 7500+ cards in total, while Yu-Gi-Oh! has 11000+ cards (excluding Normal-Type Main Deck cards), and all of those cards are "standard", no wild card and such. And like Farfa said, Yu-Gi-Oh! is a social based card game that introducing it's digital form (Master Duel or Duel Links), while Hearthstone is likely to be a pure online card game. HS's card effects mostly just like Pot of Greed the shortest and maybe like Night Express Knight the longest, with one effect 95-99% of the time with some that has 2 effects. while YGO's cards upon release did not have any effects and gradually have one. In time YGO cards released with more text with one effect that describing _when, how, and what_ to do with the card when activating the cards (maybe in HS this is the mana thing). Modern YGO cards got more text and more effects on top of describing of when, how, and what to do with the card when activating it. In that sense, maybe we can understand Rarran's dilemma experiencing YGO. 11000+ cards with no limit of using as long as the text did not say otherwise, an earth diameter of text to comprehend and read, also we must not forget the ATTRIBUTE, TYPE, SUB-TYPE, LEVEL, ATK, DEF, Card Type and/or Summoning Type of the cards to be considered on making a deck to be played. Historically, YGO is just like HS in a sense, one monster per turn and maybe 1-4 cards in Spell/Trap zone and End turn. In time introducing a new summoning method while preserving the old one, Ritual, Fusion, Synchro, Xyz, Pendulum, and Link. These summoning methods are not introduced in one go. The are introduced at least with three till five years gap in average. Cards added to counter other cards, added to add more complexity, or added as power creep itself. Also, in YGO, we have what we called stapples, core, and other terms to be considered. TLDR: HS is a small amount of text card game while Yugioh is the vice vesa.
On the question what would bring me back to yugioh, i would say an actual interactive multi turn gameplay loop with Setup and strategy planed out over multiple turns with setups and executes. That would bring me back, otherwise i won't come back.
I have to agree current day yugioh is very flawed. The problem with it started when special summoning wasn't special anymore. OTKs are too easy to pull off without certain hand traps which replaced trap cards in alot of ways. Monster effects have also become way too bloated. The only viable way for new players is to play antimeta. Still better than hearthstone though
Literally just read the end board. It’s so frustrating hearing someone say they don’t know how they lost when they just don’t read the information actively given to them.
I really like the explanation here of not thinking of terms of card for card/ turn by turn like hearthstone or magic. Yu gi oh is usually more knowing how each part of your deck is connected to the other parts of your deck and what specifically you are trying to do.
But that’s every card game…. Knowing what your cards are and how they connect to other cards and your eventual win con It’s just more like the games are reversed, late game mtg is early game Yugioh You start your engine and his the gas as hard as you can in Yugioh, whereas the other games you slowly build your engine while the trying to stop your opponents (which applies to Yugioh as well but at an alarming pace as your engine is already playable) Main difference is definitely pace
Solo gates try to give you a demonstration of how a deck works and shows some interactions with other archetypes. The problem is that there isn't enough depth in the gates and most of the decks aren't relevant to the current game environment.
@@Lyrog and that was what I was getting at. There isn't enough depth towards the archetype and they'll throw in random archetypes that have never actually had synergy in a practical setting.
The real issue is that games ending on turn one after 15 minutes of the opponent playing cards is only really fun for one of the two players. With almost any other card game, most games have enough back and forth that everyone comes out of the game feeling like their deck got to do something, regardless of whether they won or got first turn etc.
About the YuGiOh formats: Yes, Rarran is right, most games you play the current meta. MOST games. But the difference is. In YuGiOh you ALWAYS play with Wild Format. If a beginner start playing Hearthstone and the base game is Wild, he would be pissed with power crept version of their starting cards. While "Standard" format for YGO would be Edison. A less powerful self-contained version of the game. So Yes, Edison is easier for you to start with the game. Edit: Also, yeah, HS is a more popular online card game. And wait wait wait... Really Farfa?? REALLY?! Bots cannot won in YuGIoh? REALLY?!............ REALLY?! Didn't we got a horrible Bot attack and the banlist had to adapt to get rid of easy win bots? Can we just bring back DD Dynamite?
The problem isn't the mode existing or not, it's how new players are directed. In Hearthstone, you can't even play Wild until you've cleared the apprentice ranks, and even then the game heavily directs you towards Standard.
Yugioh player : Dissing Yugioh Yugioh community : Haha. Funny. Very related Non-Yugioh player : Dissing Yugioh Yugioh community : HOW DARE YOU TRASH TALK YUGIOH!!
I personally think yugioh's main issue is how poorly konami has shepherded the game to the modern day. Where games like magic have been able to translate well and keep the game accessible yugioh has become more and more unfriendly to casual players
The One Piece analogy is so good. As someone who has both been playing Yugioh and watching (really reading) One Piece since they made it to the US...I truly am in too deep to not stick with it, despite the ups and downs! That's not to say that new people can't get into either, but CONVINCING SOMEONE to invest the massive amount of free time to get through the early slog where you're getting introduced to everything and used to all the quirks...I totally get anyone's hesitation. But I also feel like people who stick with it find it rewarding...or at-least mildly fun :D
I think the biggest issue here is that People want to change Yugioh in a way that makes it more beginner friendly, but it's nearly impossible to do so at this point. The reason why is that it would strip Yugioh of it's identity in the TCG space. Yugioh is probably the only game that says, "Here are the softlimits of the game, go nuts" because the only real limitations imposed on the player is the player's skill level and the cards in their deck. Every other limit in the game is negotiable, almost making the game a game of trying to wield infinite potential. Trying to limit the player or slow the game down turns Modern Yugioh into a completely different game. We see this by looking back at every single good deck. Very few games have good kitchen sink decks, but it seems that in Yugioh there's almost always a good rogue option. Dragonlink has been at least rogue for the past 7 or so years. What makes that deck good isn't that it's just an amazing archetype. It doesn't even lock the opponent out especially hard in comparison to some other stun decks, it's the fact that it skirts the "limitations" of what the base game allow so well that you out resource and out power your opponent. Same thing for Ishizu Tear, which is arguably the best example of this idea, Ishizu Tear cards in a vacuum didn't do anything super unfair in comparison to other cards, but outresourced and outgrinded the opponent, not just so well, but also so fast that it was almost pointless to even play the game. Very few other games have so many cards that express themselves in such a way, but since other TCG's tend to have hard limits, or resources that need to be spent in order to do something, it's hard to convert players from other games into Yugioh players. How do you fix the game? Well, to be purely honest, there's nothing wrong with the game if you want to encourage a game where your skill is the only thing that limits you. If we keep modern Yugioh the way it is, rewarding skill expression and card abuse, then Konami would have to REALLY invest in alternative formats. Invest in ways that doesn't cannabalize the modern player population, which is very difficult to do. You'd have to balance and then market it outward, rather than inward. And that's just a heavy risk to take. If on the other hand, you would want to change modern yugioh to have limits, then you would need to take a shotgun approach like the original Idea of Master Rule 4, but instead of making all of these alternative ways to get around the limits, you never let anyone get around the limits at all. Pendulum is a great example of slowing the game down, in master Rule 4, with the exception of one archetype(Pendulum Magicians), pendulum became fair, so fair that not a single other pendulum archetype could really keep up with the speed of the game. They were hard limited by mechanics, and had no real ways of getting around the limitations that they had set on them. The issue is, is that the pendulum mechanic as a whole had it's identity changed, arguably for the worse, as Most pendulum decks no longer look the same when coming out of dev, and all older pendulum archetypes are either no longer pure pendulums, or have dropped off the face of the planet, as they just cannot keep up.
@@hibiki8473 The problem is, is that the tutorials would never be comprehensive enough for you to get to the skill level required to play "casual" yugioh. Rather than tutorials to get your skills to the level needed to play the meta, you are instead building extremely comprehensive deck tutorials. And that's a level of investment that's too much to ask if you want active participation in your game. @hwahTV I agree, Konami needs to create a good alternative format that's easy to step into, moderately rewards skill expression and doesn't create non games for one party as well as has room to grow(set support). Effectively you need an alternative to Modern Yugioh that still gets set support but has hard limits. And then on top of that, Konami would need to support it with tournaments and community events.
@@TsuikeNovaus so crazy idea make tutorials good and people understand a basic idea what's going on what's fucking wrong with all of you no one saying the tutorial makes you understand 100% of every card but give you a fucking idea. You people are why Yu-Gi-Oh will die
I don't think the problem RhongoRan has with yugioh is reading the cards necessarily, just not taking what the cards do in conjunction with the other cards in his deck to know when, how, and why they play together. Of course the game doesn't exactly tell you how to do this and is more of a skill players developed after playing the game for such a long time.
As someone who watched all 7 hours of Rarran's stream I have 3 issues: 1. Why was Rarran ok with chat coaching him but not another person? He was trying to get 'the new player experience' but all he got was 'I am going to google a good deck to play and figure out the combo lines but instead I get a bunch of random people to google for me and confuse me by pulling me in 20 different directions. Understanding the cards and what they do on my own? No thank you I will be turning my brain off and reading chat" 2. He tried jumping into casual without even finishing the tutorial. Why would you enter a game with another human if you dont even know how to set cards or summon monsters. Its like the meme of the guy poking a stick into his bicycle and falling over and blaming the bicycle but in video format. What did he think was going to happen if he doesnt even know that left mouse button fires the weapon or spacebar is jump? 3. He played only 4 casual games, went first twice and went second twice. How can he say stuff like "I didnt even get to play the game and already lost" in just 4 games. I feel like he is bringing up issues that he did not experience for himself and is just regurgitating stuff he heard from other people about the game. I honestly got frustrated watching him constantly shoot himself in the foot and getting mad of stuff he did to himself
Back when Rarran was talking to people from other card games, quizzing them on what hearthstone cards are real, I wanted the MBT/Farfa collab. Haha at least it happened through some means eventually lol
Rarran: *well constructed long speech*. Farfa: "your game shet. Yoo am so much better then YOU people" Dunno if he is just joking or saying stuff like this for content, but everytime he says stuff like this is so cringe and childish.
If there's one thing I'd make mention of, if they didn't already, it's that knowledge between Hearthstone and Runeterra and Magic and all of them can easily transfer between each other due to similar base mechanics present within the systems. Yugioh is... *Really* not like any of those, so it makes sense that someone who primarily played those games would have trouble with it.
That's kind of the point of this entire convo, there is no game which has transferable skill to YGO, and there is also not a good new player experience. Both those things combined makes for a game that slowly looses players and doesn't gain many
I’m one of those people who went from never having played and knowing nothing about Yugioh before MasterDuel came out to now where I can play and “full combo” consistently with most decks I start playing. I know it takes a lot of time and commitment but it really wasn’t hard. The only advice I had going in was from a friend who played duel links saying “there’s probably going to be a website with decklists”. I crafted what was essentially a full power VW deck and spent many dozens of games functionally clicking buttons learning eventually that Shenshen was a good card and with some basic combos I could summon a rank 9 Xyz monster. I summoned VFD maybe once, not even remotely comprehending what it’s effect did, and opted to either end on Phantom Fortress or awkward synchro monsters. It took me a long time to figure out that VFD was even good and a little bit after that I consumed actual Yugioh content on UA-cam and learned that VFD was in fact an unbelievably powerful card. I think with, at the bare minimum, a decklist of a powerful deck and some basic reading comprehension that you can learn what cards do and vaguely intuit how you’re supposed to use them and even what your opponent is doing even if it’s only a surface level understanding. I think that people who naturally like something will seek out content about that thing, purely for entertainment if not learning purposes. It is pretty problematic that it can be such a chore to actually go and get decklists in Yugioh though, I play and have played Hearthstone and they are genuinely spoiled rotten with how easy deck code sharing is. Structure decks obviously need an overhaul, but I do think copying a deck is a much better learning experience for learning the whole crafting system and secret pack system and a little of the collection page.
Lol I hadn't played YGO for a decade when MD came out. I ended up playing lyrilusc tri brigade as my first deck and I just looked up my combo routes and how to play the modern game on youtube. Then I forgot how to read cards and settled on playing fucking Exosister, so I think I adapted to YGO pretty well.
I really wish yugioh would just ban every negates in the game so it can actually be fun. In master duel, going past 2 turns is the most fun thing to do once u go past the wall of negates
Farfa could have easily won if he created 99 different nicknames for RamRanch here
Mbt made it impossible to even find who he was talking about. I finally found it after like the third chain.
@@bej4987chain link 4 Solemn Judgement
He really rocks
@@bej4987mate, the video was in the description
@@bej4987after the 3rd chain you could have activated chain strike
I think the only way Farfa can convince Rarran to play the game is by starting a Progression Series with him .
Thank you someone else thought of this holy shit
Best idea ever .
I haven't watched the video yet, I just wanted to chime in that low power formats are the only way for me to truly enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh. Some kind of Progression series is one of them, and probably one of the more common ones in this day and age, but there are more things you can cook up. Some kind of Auction Series too, though that is definitely much more work to organise (and the auctioneer can't really participate himself).
GIVE THIS MAN ALL UR LIKES, We need to make this happen
That's called solo mode
-When you play a videogame, do you want to play the game?
-Im going to plead the fifth
Enough said
Ye i like playing the game. Thats why i play cards that activate on the opponents turn.
The fighting game community has been having this exact discussion for like a decade. Street fighter 6 was a huge breakthrough because it's the first time a street fighter game REALLY did a good job showing new players real situations. Instead of just giving them combo trials and an open-ended training mode, it presents new players with REAL in-game situations and provides solutions (like, "what do i do if my opponent jumps at me?). Fighting games did a terrible job with new-player experience until EXTREMELY recently. Capcom addressed the situation, so can Konami.
Capcom also introduced modern controls for those who suck at inputs. Congratulations you now have one button special moves and two button supers. Welcome to The FGC
Although both communities share an issue with onboarding new players, I don't know if your assessment is an accurate representation of why the FGC community is growing. Fighting Games have, for a very long time, failed to have proper tutorials that dove into the nuances of the genre such as frame data, frame traps, set ups, Meaty's, Shimmies, whiff punishes etc... However, there have been games with incredible tutorials, such as Skullgirls, Killer Instinct, Thems Fightin Herds, ggxrd, etc... Good tutorials have not historically, at least in my opinion, been the thing that has retained new players on their own. In the FGC, we have seen the simplification of inputs over time. From as far back as MvC1 with Simple Mode and its subsequent entries in the series, to CvS2 EO and more, to the more "recent" introduction of Auto Combos, to the limitation of motions inputs removing DP motions and the outright removal of motion inputs in certain instances. SF6 went the extra mile and successfully incorporated a single player mode that familiarizes the player with the controls (of which includes Modern Controls) without it feeling like homework and added customization incentives for their avatar to continue playing in an open world type setting that they can then show off in the Battle Hub. World Tour, in my opinion, went a long way for player retention as a tutorial in disguise, so I agree with you in that regard, however it crucially also needed the addition of Modern Controls. Whether we like it or not, physical execution is a barrier for new players. I'm sure there's a Yugioh parallel for that somewhere that I can't think of right now.
Fighting games and Yugioh have a lot of overlap in my opinion, they are both incredibly complex past the surface level however, for example, a new player just doesn't get to play the game when they play against established players. A newcomer sees Ryu and thinks back to a childhood moment of Ryu vs Ken and Hadoukens and Shoryuken and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku sound bites and they'll want to try it out. Or they'll see Goku and Vegeta in DBFZ and want to play with them. Not unlike a person seeing Blue Eyes or the Dark Magician and wanting to try out the game. They'll hop online without any execution and then they'll get put in block strings that lead to frame traps and they'll mash only to fall right into the trap and get counter hit, god forbid they get put in the corner or try to jump in on the established player or... not even know how to deal with projectiles. The new player just never got to play. They'll go online and vent about how sweaty people are and how fighting games suck and then never play that game again. With the skill floor being raised through the help of Auto Combos, Simple Inputs and in game mechanics however, a new player gets to interact. "Everyone can be Daigo". Sure they'll still get bodied by established players but they'll feel like they're doing cool shit by just mashing buttons and fights with people around their skill level will be flashier than without any of the mentioned mechanics. Hell, sometimes the simplified controller layout can actually out perform classic controls, as we're seeing more and more new players making higher ranks in SF6 with Modern Controls (and that's not even exploring how pros are using them). A good tutorial, especially one that is disguised so it doesn't feel like homework, such as the World Tour in SF6, combined with the decade+ culmination of input simplification goes a long way for accessibility. There's a reason every new fighting game continues to incorporate features that "simplify" the genre further and the numbers don't lie, there are still failures, like DNF Duel and GBVS but in the macro scale, it's working whether the community likes it or not. There is still a deep well of nuance to the genre, but the skill floor is being raised over time.
All that to say, I'm not too sure a good tutorial will be the ticket for Yugioh. Like fighting games, it is incredibly complex with tons of legacy knowledge checks. An incredible tutorial will help, sure, but just like Fighting Games, it'll need to be in conjunction with ways to make the game more accessible to newcomers. Master Duel has shown that being a generous F2P game isn't enough to retain a significant portion of newcomers.
For me I had to learn fighting games from guilty gear strive which I will say has a really good tutorial on everything and teaches you pretty well along with some complicated stuff if you want to learn but don't need at the beginning.
Yugioh is the super smash bros melee of card games.
I feel like Master Duel was supposed to be the "Street Fighter 6" of Yugioh, like Master Duel was Konami's attempt to help introduce new players to Yugioh and now they are scrambling to find a new solution after Master Duel wasn't as effective as they thought it was going to be.
Let it be known that only Yugioh players are allowed to hate Yugioh.
amen im printing and framing this comment
Konami hates the game and they definitely don't play it.
To be fair hating something without knowing much about it is just cringe behavior
Based
@@potatoexe5410sorry that we don't have 700÷ hours to understand the ins and outs of the game
With all these Rarran nicknames in the comments Joseph must feel like Oppenheimer after he realized, what he created.
"Now I become funny, destroyer of all memes"
My Le memes, are Le Funny?
yugioh players when they encounter a single funny joke: lets keep beating this dead horse until everyone is sick of it
Nah, he feels like the Joker
@@Always.Smarterhonestly yeah, a yugituber started the “it’s morbin time” meme and somehow the same mentality stretched across the internet with that one
The biggest issue that is consistently coming up is that, unlike all of the other card games, YuGiOh demands a high level of knowledge about the individual cards themselves. The way the cards are written, designed (both individually and as archetypes) and played mean that players can't reactively play against cards they've ever seen before with only mechanics and systems to guide them. Most of this is because of the lack of a universal resource system like mana or memory, and the other half of it is that most effects aren't indicative of an end board and name other specific cards. And you can't fix those things without also getting rid of the very things that the core yugioh audience likes, the high speed of the game and the big combos.
On a strictly mechanical level, Yugioh is not significantly more complex than other TCGs. Its barrier to entry isn't about individual mechanics, it's the fact that even someone who knows all of the mechanics still has to know all of the individual cards because cards reference other cards and you need a working knowledge of their combo lines before the match starts.
archetypal mechanic bypass the game mechanic like tri, or just straight playing different game like vaylantz.
I'd be so much easier if they had rush duels text. Fuck this game really needs that.
100% this. A tutorial of mechanics & systems gets you 80-90% of the way to playing something like pokemon or mtg, while that last 10-20% can be picked up in-game by seeing how your opponent's board gets built, sussing out their strategy, and reacting accordingly. And you have time to do this in games like pokemon & mtg because there is a finite amount of actions that can be taken and cards are much more easily digestible in what they do.
Yugioh is the complete reverse; Mechanics & systems knowledge only gets you that first 10-20%, and the overwhelming majority of the complexity is trying to determine on-sight what this college essay of text is trying to do, but by the time you do that it has turned into 7 other cards that all have their own essay of text, and by the time you finish your opponent has this unkillable board and you realize the only way you could have stopped them was not to stop the card that you took the time to read, but to stop the card they played 3 cards before that.
Big combos? Yes
High speed duels? Not really when you are stuck in a solitaire game.
yeah, and? most competitive games require a high level of knowledge to be good at them
Any game that doesnt is just a mindless clicker, why do you need a card game to be a clicker? there are lots of trash mobile games you can go play instead
Its not a problem, its a good thing, weeds out 2heads. Just so you know, i left yugioh about the time when pendulums were released, and came back with the release of master duel. So this is coming from someone who had to learn 10 years of meta in one go.
“What do you mean i cant find the text box its the whole card”
Farfa he rolled you there mate 😂
This is my take as a Yugioh player with 20+ years of experience: until Master Duel has a button that says "Edison Format" on it, where you press it and you get to play Edison Format, content creators can STFU about Edison Format as a viable excuse for new players having a miserable entry experience
YGO being the One Piece of Trading Card Games is a comparison I can't believe I never thought of until now. It's so damn accurate.
But one piece is a trading card game
he meant that ygo/one piece fans will say about their respective game/show. “It gets good after a while u just gotta keep going”
@@pitsa9838except that's not true, onepiece starts good, but it gets better and better with time, it also starts super simple and welf conteined but get progressively deeper more complex and open as you follow it. Yugioh on the other hand demands you know all mechanics and interactions and syntax loop holes for you to play it even remotely decently. The curve is the exact opposite, the only thing you could say they have in common is the time investment.
that is ooo true. I reallonly play the game now because I have kept up for decades on the side and when masterduel came out, it wasnt that big of a plunge to get myself fully familiar again.
I always think that yugioh is the dota 2 of card game, compare it to other game with the same genre theyre too different, too complex for beginner to play.
I think what this discussion shows... Master Duel needs a lot of new formats. Draft, Time Wizard, a severely limited Beginner Mode etc. Discussions like this might give Konami some attention over the subject
Idk why they don't have a permanent tryout mode where they just put basic decks for new players to try against each other.
@@GaussianEntity90% of the active player base fucking hate the first duel trial, don't ever suggest that ever again.
@@hopkinsstefan454 I didn't say to use the first one lmao. I said to let new players play decks similar to them. Honestly it's way better than just getting blown out by tier 1 stuff straight out of the tutorial.
Maybe they can add beginner pvp mode for seven days only... where you can play pvp with the same beginner who still new at the game
I don't see the point in waiting for Konami to take action when the playerbase is probably far more equipped at undertaking this sort of thing. If players show more interest, start purchasing products in that direction, and start putting in the work to make more formats available to players, then Konami will probably not notice it.
If all yugitubers combine their powers, maybe they can turn this guy who hates yugioh into a guy who hates yugioh but still can't stop playing it. Like us :)
True!
I loved the immediate banter, you should do more colabs with him. I'd be interested to see an experience with you playing hearthstone with him and him playing yugioh with you :D
Based! 🙌 absolutely
I can't even be mad at rarran. He was overwhelmed and chat was balls to the wall memeing on him and confusing him even further.
So yeah the guy tilted Hella hard and it was justified.
I don't necessarily agree, I was there, and I didn't see chat meme on him so hard. Like yes, there was a few comment, but many times he mistook comments supporting him, as an attack.
@@trokolisz3702chat is literally on the screen mate
@@trokolisz3702that's still kinda understandable.
He is good in games which hold your hand tight during your experience thus it kinda sucks to find yourself unable to understand what the game is about.
It's copium yes, but I can feel him.
Chat might have been supportive but suggesting salad over Maids it's like suggesting a shotgun to someone struggling using a sling.
nah im on the side of rarran and mbt completely, i think his video was warranted and great
call it rarranted
Infinite money glitch 💀
lmao 🗿
😅 content wheel gonna spin
INDEED 😂😂😂
Next time he is going to play master duel again and get upset again and Farfa will debate him again
@@lixiang4051 nah I see a farfa playing coach series coming up, it would add info to the "why yugioh is bad for new players" thing he's been doing recently
4:00 That really depends on the game. Yugioh isnt like an rpg, or a sandbox, or a shooter, where you as an individual will knowingly get the chance to interact with other individuals. Yugioh is like a fighting game constantly on ranked. And like with many fighting games when you enter a match online you run the risk that if you dont know the mechanics inside and out, you will get you sh*t wrecked by a player who does know these mechanics and can win the game with out losing any real amount of health.
I love this comparison.
except most fighting games don't have fighters that say well I got first hit put down your controller I have won and there is nothing you can do about it, most fighting games have comeback mechanics, most fighting games are easy to understand but hard to master, Yugioh is none of these things it's like getting thrown into masters in a fighting game blindfolded with both your hands broken and people screaming why aren't you wining
@@michaelkehaYou can literally get bodied as a new player in a fighting game before you get a chance to a land a punch, so the comparison stands and works pretty well. Additionally, there always have been incredibly powerful characters in the FGC, just like there are incredibly powerful decks and individual cards in any TCG.
Just like how you can get destroyed for going into ranked in a fighting game before properly learning about the game, you can also get destroyed in Yu-Gi-Oh for not knowing how to deckbuild or how to use your going second cards properly. The only line separating both is that you can also be unlucky and not draw well, but that's expected of what literally a card game where you _randomly_ pull cards from a deck.
@@michaelkeha In a fighting game you ultimately have three distinct things. Your knowledge, Your Skill, and The data of how the game functions. Your understanding of these thing is what makes or break you being able to actually play against those who know how to play. Resource is a non factor for this very same reason. There are broken decks, the same way there are broken characters. But people with actual skill and knowhow do wayyy better with (and sometimes without) those decks/characters than those who dont.
This is why just like with a fighting game in reality it takes more than just an hour or two of practice to actually know the game.
...Aren't fighting games notoriously hard for new players to get into literally for this reason? So you're kinda agreeing with Rarran
26:44 I have no idea how Rarran managed to fumble up what's actually going on lol
For anyone who's interested, bots aren't used to best players. Bots are used to farm gold on multiple accounts to allow you to enter an Arena run, the draft mode in Hearthstone. Someone manually drafts the cards. If the drafted cards result in a less-than-insane deck, they retire from the arena run (ie. Forfeit) and continue letting the bots farm gold. But when they eventually hit that 1-in-a-100 deck, they either play on it and post it online to get views, or sell it to someone who enjoys steamrolling others by just having a more OP deck. It's like, imagine I play against you and we both make completely random decks. But if I look through my deck and don't like it, I can make another completely random deck. If I still don't like that I can make another and so on. Then after I reset for a hundred times and get the god-tier deck, then I decide to play a game with you.
Farfa literally ignored the multiple formats we had with ftk bots. Remember when u had to run a 13 card extra cause that was literally the only way to counter the ftk.
Wild has had bots for years. Rarran might have screwed up the arena explanation but currently the top 5%-10% of wild hearthstone is swarmed with bots.
"Yu-gi-oh is bad because....."
"No no no, you're right, it is all those things. Its good though I promise, just ignore the bad."
Seems like a pretty simple conclusion.
I think the best explanation is Yugioh's archetypes are like Magic's colors, but instead of there only being 5 colors, there's 100+ and most of them play a completely different game than conventional Yugioh.
I think Master Duel would benefit if Konami instituted a tier system in ranked for archetypal cards based on the usage and win statistics, similar to what Smogon does for Pokemon Showdown. This would also give incentive for people to put their gems towards lower power decks.
and they all share staple pieces that don' infer anything about their archetype. legends of runeterra, mtg and hearthstone reveal something about the deck you're fighting before a spell resolves.
@@Hawko1313When YGO was first conceived, the potential difference in decks was not immense enough to trigger that thought. These days the existance of a hint like that would end some matches at turn 0 :v
Mainly because forfeiting upon seeing that you're done does become a habit..
people will shoot down this idea by splitting hairs about tier 1 vs tier 3, when its actually a totally reasonable to make wide tiers, e.g. top 50 decks, next best 150 decks, so on. it would just require effort on konami’s part to not break every tier and make it non-competitive, so its not gonna happen
Some of the most fun I've had playing master duel is from allowing my rank to drop so I can climb with worse decks till I get back up to start playing more high power rogue decks
Rarran brought up the term "early game", which made me realize that yugioh kinda doesnt have that. Yugioh basically has turn 1, where you either drew a bricky hand that cant do much or youre doing your combo. Then i suppose you could say that the 2nd players first turn (turn 2) is the "mid game", since games usually doesnt last longer than 4 or so turns, but at the same time that is the first time that one of the players can even do anything substancial (other than handtraps). The "end game" is turn 3 or 4, depending on who was able to break the other players board the fastest and then basically attack with everything for game.
Card games like hearthstone, runeterra and mtg lets players grow their boards and set themselves up at an (almost) equally fast pace, such that when the leading player has set up, the other player has set up quite a bit as well, whereas in yugioh it is basically the going second player trying to survive what the first turn player has set up, while trying to set up as much as possible themselves and when/if they outpace the first turn player they will go to attack.
I would like to draw a paralell to the game of chess. Its a really easy game to learn but infinately complex when trying to master it. The non-yugioh card games that Rarran is referrencing like hearthstone, runeterra and mtg are paced the same way as chess is. Both players takes turns moving their pieces, one by one. Yugioh on the other hand is designed such that if we were to play chess with yugiohs pacing, each player would move pieces 10 times each, and then pass their turn so their opponent can move pieces 10 times and so on.
TLDR; Comparing yugioh to other card games are like comparing apples to bread, it is just that different.
Glad someone saw it like this. Like the difference between losing to a much better player and deck between the mtg, yugioh and hearthstone is so little. In yugioh if your opponent sets up a board you can't break you've lost, why play just pick up your cards. In mtg if your opponent has just the better deck you play the illusion of cards. None of your cards really matter you don't have a clean out to your opponents game plan. Even in hearthstone. The couple of turns you play doesn't really matter if your opponent has control of the board or a combo you can't interact with. The difference is that when u lose to a deck in yugioh it looks really good like you stood no chance, in mtg and hearthstone you still stood no chance but it's hard to tell.
I had the same thought in story telling terms yugioh goes from the prologue straight to epilogue, while all the other card games have a gradual build up to the grand finale.
@@Xeraxil That's a really weird deterministic way of looking at it. That's more philosophical than it is practical. The truth is, at least in terms of hs bc I've never played mtg, is that at every step of the game, you do stand a chance. It's not 'decided beforehand' and therefore 'giving you an illusion of gameplay.' idk why people keep saying this. I mean you can say that about everything. Like if I got run over by a car today you could say ah, I had the illusion of life, I had no chance against the car that was going to hit me 8 hours from now. Like, okay sure? But what does that have to do with anything?
@@hugomendoza5665 The difference is the feeling of "I stood no chance against this person" that is very obvious in yugioh and not in any other game. The difference in your analogy would be like if you could see that your demise is guaranteed by the car a year before vs you not knowing it, but there is nothing you can do to stop said car. Both end in a sad way yet they are seen as two different things? (Assuming the person able to see the future does not augment their way of life around the car)
The truth is that a new person should not be able to win against a veteran player with a better deck in any game. A game that breaks this constantly would be a game that is heavily reliant on luck.
Yeah, most card games have a very steady and clear gamestate that’s tied to the power of cards and the resources they require. Yugioh has very unintuitive phasing. The first turn, power scaling is highest, since you have 5 cards in hand and a full deck and extra. Decks usually exhaust their main line, which they can do at most twice (usually), sometimes once like DL. Then, if the game isn’t decided, secondary engines, grind game, and sweepers duke it out until a player goes for lethal or is exhausted of cards. It’s a really unintuitive way for a card game to play out, especially if every other relevant game uses some variation of a steady growth of power, with different kinds of decks peaking at different points in the game.
I think there should be a mode in Master Duel that only allows you to play the structure decks. Seems like a fun mode
There should be a duel mode even if it was a solo mode that lets you play different decks thru out yugiohs life span
Like choose the 4 most prominent decks of each year and make them into structure decks and you can switch between each one
Hell doesnt even need to go that far make it like by eras 4 synchros xyzs fusion etc decks
I know MTG Arena has an event like that
Salamangreat meta lets go
The only worry about this is that you'd have to reeeeally balance them. It's way too easy for one deck to just be better in a pre-constructed format.
It should be a fine-tuned one, not like the very first Duel Trial where we played only one copy of the structure deck. That was not a well-functioned deck at all.
Perhaps this sort of exposure and debate and discussion will make Konami look at how they try to introduce the game to new players.
Master Duel is certainly flawed. Personally, I feel the best way is to start incredibly basic and progress through the years of releases as the power increases.
If konami was not so greedy and stupid, new players would be given a Spright deck, with 3 nimble beaver, 2 blue. 2 starter. 2 giant. 2 elf. 1 sprind. Masquerena, Avramax and Goddess of the closed world.
It is an extremely simple deck which is incredibly nonlinear and has a high skill ceiling making it great for the player to learn the mechanics and have enough power to play the game at the adults table.
But that shit is never happening because konami cares more about money than the game itself. Undeniably. .
They did this with Duel Links, and what happened with that Game?
Is it perfect no. But Rarran also by his own admittance didn’t even play through all of the tutorial before deciding to jump into ranked. I don’t disagree that the introduction for Master Duel needs improvement, but rarran also went into the whole thing with a huge amount of ego and arrogance that his skill at other TCGs would be enough to make him competent when nothing else really plays like YGO.
Also dude got straight up trolled being told to start with Dragonmaid and Salads. He got set up for failure screwed himself more and then cried wolf and accidentally was kinda right
@steelblake still going, actually somehow. Might even come back if they do rush duels well
It is late to make those changes but more tutorials would help. By "more" I mean at least a dozen. At least that way people can see what to expect
"you didn't play the game right" is such a shit argument. Do you expect a nine yo to look at a blue eyes, think oh that's cool I'll try ygo and immediately know dragon link combo routes, labrynth choke point and how to side against kash? No, this game is too competitive and has no learning curve or casual format or format that is FUN for new players.
You’re not wrong, but you are crazy for thinking it would be easy to get into a game with over 20+ years of game knowledge and power creep and expect to do a good job without having learned a damn thing.
@@emannuelsepulveda7259 Chess has 1500+ years of game knowledge and power creep. People actually not only write books, but have whole libraries of chess works. Multiple magazines in every language are printed about chess now. And yet, children are introduced from the age of 5. Chess also has a handicapping system for skill levels.
@@JustAManFromThePast yea but as you said yourself, “introduced at the age of 5” of course they’re gunna learn as would a person who was introduced to Yugioh at the age of 5.
@@emannuelsepulveda7259 I gonna be real with you.
I played YGO for 17 years. Started as a playground kid that had 5 black holes and became semi-competitive in ranked ygo pro and other simulators (not netdecking bc f that). I didn't have the money but loved the game. Took a 5 year long break. Came back and the game is not fun anymore (besides edison and goat).
I started getting into MTG a few days ago and the game is far older than YGO. It is easier to learn and understand while still offering a lot of complexity.
YGO is more complex and the potential is there, but there is a fundamental issue with how the game was designed and got mechanics bloat. And the amount cope YGO players have is staggering.
The problem with yugioh is that knowledge of the basic rules doesnt carry over to how decks play. Archetypes are so self referential that in order to do well you cant just be good at yugioh, you have to be good at your deck and good at countering common decks
I’m only about 15 minutes in, but I absolutely adore this content. Two adults having a rational conversation about things they’re passionate about, both being respectful, and neither getting that heated. 10/10
17:03 I have the answer to that question Farfa and it's a really simple one. Hearthstone and yugioh are VASTLY different games with VASTLY different systems and mechanics. Most of the things you learn playing Hearthstone, MTG, Runeterra, etc. Do not carry over in any way to yugioh. There's no mana system in yugioh, so learning to build a deck on curve doesn't carry over. Compared to other games that have synergies that you can analyze on a card to card basis, with yugioh any synergy contributues to a huge combo string that you need to memorize, So any knowledge of deck building synergy doesn't carry over. Essentially every important aspect you learn playing other card games will never carry over to yugioh. Even if you came from yugioh before it won't help because the game evolves and changes it's core principles so drastically that someone who played back in the early synchro era will likely be extremely confused on how to build a deck now. As someone who's played yugioh on and off for years at a time, this felt like an obvious answer to me.
Not to mention skill on a match is also very knowledge depending. Knowing what your opponent is going for is so important, especially in yugioh where turn 1 is the equivalent of the late turns of mana-driven card games. Farfa is literally comparing a dude who can see what class the oponent is playing in HS and have an idea of what deck he may be playing vs playing yugioh with a literal blindfold on to any move the opponent makes.
Yugioh deck building for beginners 101
1. Netdeck
2. Now learn how to play your deck bozo
3. You know your deck now? Here's the techs you can use in your deck bozo.
Yugioh’s beginning is other card games end game unless you bricked your draw
Thing is the reason I personally dont like current yugioh is that there is no back and forth, no mind games,
Yugioh is currently more like a power fantasy where you’re op from the start, whereas I’m into progressive fantasy series where you get stronger over time
Different flavors
i love how they are just casually roasting the shit out of eachother and its all still good laughs at the end of the day. lot of respect ro both of you
I wish they brought up the fact that most people don't get into Yu-Gi-Oh blind like Rarran did. Everyone I've seen get into the game is because they've joined with a friend who helps them explain a deck or they see a deck they like on UA-cam or in the anime. So even if they don't know what every card in the game does they've had an outside source explain what their deck does, then it's a lot less overwhelming because you only need to learn how your opponents deck functions
Except this was addressed in Ram Ranch's first video.
You’re describing an MLM not a successful multiplayer game.
Omg. You shouldn’t need a sponsor to get you involved
He did that when he was building that Salad deck and still failed. At that point, the only thing at fault there is his refusal to understand what the f is goin on during the game. He even failed to grasp the core Dragonmaid gameplay which is both funny and sad. Fucking Sykkuno and Luslie were able to grasp the concept of modern YGO gaming. The only logical conclusion is that, Rarran was already dead set on not accepting complicated shit like modern YGO from the moment he boots up MD. The terrible matches he got into is the final hit to his guts.
@shinyanakagawa8241 Honesty, it was almost comedical how he didn't want to read his cards or see the tutorials and then immediately ran into Rikka, one of the most wacky yet strong combo decks
Except that's only half of the story. When players had outside help, they are more likely to keep playing. So the "most" people you are talking about are only the ones that stayed.
Master duel was one of the most played games on steam for the first week, but lost most of its players right after. That speaks for itself and shows that "most" actual players problably didn't have a guide and quit just like Rarran, only a couple hours after trying it out.
I think we need to look at the potential this new wave of players had and how much of a wasted opportunity this was. This game could be way more popular if there were ways build-in to the game to help new players.
Current yugioh reminds me so much of fighting games. When you first pick it up you play story mode and button mash your way to the end of story mode. Then you go to online thinking you stand a chance and get paired into players that have put the work into being actually good at the game and have spent time learning and understanding the game. That wall is so reminiscent of going from solo mode to pvp in master duel
And it was always something the fighting community pointed out as a flaw. This is why after complaining for so long they finally added a way for new players to actually learn the game in sf6.
@@amuro9624 Tbf like half of the SF6 community are STILL complaining about that being added. A lot like ygo players they'll never be happy unless they have something to complain about
Seriously. I played Tekken and managed to beat the AI in story mode at 2nd hardest difficulty. Played online and just kept dying to people spamming the best moves that most players who have experience know how easy it is to punish but I couldn't figure out and just kept dying to low after low attacks and could barely get a hit in. Took me days to figure out how to counter those moves.
This is why it's better to just not play master duel and play the tcg. Yugioh is a game made for player interaction
as someone who actively engages with a lot of new fighting game players, even with all the new tools that sf6 gives you to learn the game between world tour/modern controls/better tutorials/better training mode, new players will still complain about getting combo'd, not being allowed to press buttons, etc. People will always complain about things they do not understand.@@amuro9624
I can hear what rarran is saying. I just recently started playing magic and the learning curve has been super intense since i have a ygo background. The mana system and translating card game skills between the two is difficult. The games just play so different at a base level.
resource system in other tcgs:
mana
resource system in YGO:
years and years of YGO knowledge
I like how Rush Duels format their cards. All of the information like type, stats, Levels, etc are clearly displayed and understood at a glance. Also the text box clearly says in bold “here’s the requirement to use effect” and right below “Here’s the effect”.
Breaking up the paragraph of text like that really helps processing the card.
I keep saying this, but idk why some players keep off putting rush duel. Yeah, it's simpler and very different, but damn doesn't it solve so many problems people normally have with the current format of yugioh
They have become the Yugiboomers@@oneofthekindscarf8612
Farfa's point about it being a social experience is actually so true. I am lucky enough to have friends that play so I would go to their locals and my opponents would teach me what their deck and cards did so I could sort of know how to maneouvre around their board. That's probably the biggest struggle with Master Duel and why they need weaker formats to help people play Master Duel, because the only format in MD is the current format which is incredibly power crept, and you don't have another person there to sort of help you through it.
Congratulations, you just described *every single tcg to ever exist.* There isn't a single card game that is designed to be played alone. Other than a purely digital game like Hearthstone, they all primarily focus on playing in-person at locals and grow by word of mouth & watching people play. That has zero bearing on the fact that yugioh is uniquely problematic in that it's barrier to entry is not mechanical knowledge, but rather the requirement of a near encyclopedic knowledge of what every card does and how it interacts with every other card in the game. I can sit down with a person whose never played pokemon before, teach them the mechanics, and hand them a deck. Even if they lose or have to ask about an occassional card, there is a good chance they could still play through a game of pokemon with just that mechanical knowledge & pick up the specific knowledge about individual cards as they play. That's impossible in yugioh because the amount of specific card knowledge needed for a person to play their own deck, let alone follow & react to their opponent's, completely dwarfs the mechanical knowledge needed and is unreasonable for a new player to be able to pick up and retain in a reasonable timeframe.
Farfa dude you need a lesson on being respectful during debates. Acting butthurt over perceived attacks, laughing at your opponent, and insulting your opponent’s intelligence is not the right way to debate. When you show no respect, you get no respect.
He is joking with him, Farfa himself agrees with most points he made because he himself made them multiple times before
I think you took the "debate" in the title a lil too literally, the tone of this video obviously wasn't meant to be super serious
I think rastafarian has a lot of valid point, but, I mean, if you play various cardgames you can’t activate cynet mining discarding gazzelle and add gazelle 🤷🏻♂️
He also went circle add gazelle prior to that play
Right, and in other games like Souls games or MOBAs you do need coaching. That’s the reality. Yugioh has a healthy player base, if we look at online card games itself.
@@KevinGonzalez-hs7sosouls definitely doesn't need coaching tho, you can brute force your way and win the game if the said player is completely blind
LMAO
@@KevinGonzalez-hs7so Yugioh is pretty much at or near peak popularity rn in both paper and online. We are still breaking records for IRL tournaments.
I think that fact that rarran actually speaks to farfa he can understand Farfas UK sarcasm a lot better in person
I think saying why haven’t your skills at hearthstone transferred to Yugioh is logically flawed. Yes they are both card games but that’s like saying why aren’t you good at poker since you’ve played blackjacks before? Two different games with different rules. Yugioh it seems is far more complicated than hearthstone.
Konami really should make a structure deck only format, ranked structure deck matches and stuff, and call the standard format "advanced", unlocked after some sort of rank reached on structure deck rankeds.
I think pure structure decks are pretty balanced to a learning level, where you get used to what you are supposed to do to play the game.
The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm.
Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling.
But konami loves money more than they love their players or actually making master duel a playable game.
i mean they have structure in their name, they serve has quick invest in an archetype or a specific type of deck, u don't get the big card for most of them
i'll take the zombie structure from MD since i play zombie in tcg format : scapegoat, pain painter, zombie master, onmoraki, samurai skull, guard ghost, Koa'ki Meiru Ghoulungulate, Red Ogre, Overpowering Eye, Ghost of a Grudge, Reject Reborn, The Deep Grave are either too slow or basicly useless but where are the solitaire shiranui ? where the nethersoul with super poly ? where the vampire sucker ? even worse where dharc ? oh and did i mention it come without balerdroch so pretty much no win condition
structure deck would make a terribly slow, unoptimised, unfun, and un balanced format so even worse to learn the game
the best way to learn is by playing with friend and some good old rogue deck not by going against konami whales with kashtira
But that's the point, this is too much to learn from the start.
New players don't need to pilot a full power zombie deck, they need to learn how to pilot a standard zombie deck.
To get used to the mechanics, the wording, and possibilities of the game.
Then, when learning how to play the standard format, they don't get upset as Ranran did, for just not knowing what was happening.
A structure deck only format, makes it easy to balance the matches, so stuff like structure dragonmaid doesn't get stomped by full power dragon link.
They have to be slow, so they can play the game
They can't learn how to play the game, if they don't get a chance to play the game.
And yeah, the access for powerful staples should be easier, but the bundle packs are there for a reason. They can also use that as something for a format like that
I'm not saying something out of reality
That's literally what used to be in pokémon tcg online
If u r new to the game, u were locked into pvp starter decks only format
(Ig they removed that from PTCG Live bc the game is extremely easy lol)
If it's unfun to you, it's fine, ofc it'd be for us, as a player i rather play the fast combo pace game that I'm used to. I love yugioh with all my heart.
But we are talking about a new player experience, so ofc our enjoyment, as regular players, shouldn't be considered when organizing something like that.
i get ur point and mostly agree
Yu gi oh is way more complex than most of the other TCG
u NEED to go check for ressources, guides, video, watch matches to understand thing
ppl won't hold back at local cuz ur new
they'll say sorry and still put 10 negate on the board
learning yu gi oh is like learning league of legend, so many characters and items combinations u need to be aware of or else u get blasted and therefore have hard time getting in
it's clearly not beginner friendly and rush duel will compensate that but will not be helpfull if u wanna taste the sauce of the real deal
i've seen some short of MD where a guy play zombie against old PK rongho
dude was complaining about a 5 material rongho
ash, droll, nibiru, effect veiler, imperm and pretty much all handtrap shutdown PK entire turn
the true problem in MD is that is one game not Bo3 with sidding
@@lvcka7416 we had it long ago, called duel trial 1.
You think people like that? No
The Irony of Farfa calling Hearthstone bad because it has bots completely forgetting the hell that was Master Duel being overrun by bots for months.
But it was bots killing themselves tho haha
I'm a YGO player, I haven't played any other card game for longer than 5 hours and I found Rarran to be 100% correct while Farfa was coping hard, and also being rude sometimes. The One Piece analogy is good, I think most people have nostalgia for YGO from 15-20 years ago and kept up with the game more or less over the years. Getting in really is like watching 1000 episodes of One Piece to catch up, super hard especially for an adult. I personally couldn't get into any other card game because I don't have that history with any of them and if Rarran can't get into YGO, that's fair and there's no need to force him, the might hate it even more.
Farfa kinda showed his ignorance at 40:17 with the keyword bit. Magic achieves a similar level of complexity to Yugioh with the use of keywords, it's really not impossible
I’m glad that the creators can remain so civil
Honestly, someone in the comments brought up a great point, Where all other card games and like Yugioh back in 2010's Yugioh now has become more like a fighting game in that a pro can single combo every newbie to oblivion and only someone who knows the game has to have luck on his side to survive the onslaught and reverse the game into his favor.
But unlike fighter games, Master Duel gives you a single chance while fighter games give you a 2 out of 3 life system before facing someone else. (And it doesn't help that you or your opponent can press the surrender button at any time with the only repercussion being you accepted a loss and moved on to the next game within seconds. victory's became hollow because the next match is a coin flip on whether or not you keep it)
Not only does mana help communicate to the player when something is generally available and when to start thinking about or reading that card but Richard Garfield had a very interesting take on why lands were great in Magic. Lands have always been a contentious thing since the excess or lack of them really can swing a game in your opponent’s favor. Garfield said something along the lines of: Lands were great because when you taught someone the game, they could look at their opening hand and theoretically half the cards in their hand immediately convey information to the player about whether or not their hand is good. Pretty much because lands are a resource, and have little to no text. If you have 1 land, it’s quick to know it’s a bad hand, same as 5+. But if you have 2-4 lands, you know to now read the rest of your hand because this is likely playable.
I think the problem lies in there is a "correct" way to play a Yugioh deck and if you're not playing that way wont have a good time, so what kinda needs to happen is someone needs to be there telling exactly what cards to play and what to do, and you do that until he by himself starts to be able to do it then at that point he might start to enjoy it when he knows the "correct" way to play
Frog who was slowly boiled in Yu-Gi-Oh! Complexity trying to convince the lobster that was just thrown in it's not that bad
People start hearthstone by thinking "I want to play a card game, maybe I should try it out"
But for yugioh, people usually start from "Someone I know is playing YGO, maybe I should try it out"
If a person find yugioh hard at first, they have more motivation to stick with yugioh because they want to play yugioh, isn't any card games, at least that how I felt personally
majority of people it's the exact opposite they try it they get smoked and go this game is awful I don't understand I'm moving on
@@michaelkeha This example isnt very good because it applies to every thing in life
thats a terrible design and it mean you will never get new blood into your game. which mean the game will just die overtime... have fun with your empty game soon :)
@@phatal4573There are many ways even if you don't have friends who play yugioh, 'someone you know' doesn't require the other person knowing you after all.
For example a streamer who plays collab with one who doesn't, a viewer starts after watching a streamer plays etc.
@@phatal4573people been saying that a decade ago, yugioh is still going strong
keep dreaming
The number 1 skill of yugioh is learning when you don't need to read cards.
Really, gotta know what your opponent's deck does and how yours can counter it, but that really is a decent chunk of knowledge to learn all at once, after learning all the mechanics of the game.
Honestly if it wasn't for friends of mine to coach on the 20 years of yugioh I missed I would be as tilted as Rarran. He's in a blessed atmosphere; if he gives any subscriber or mod their chance in the sun to teach him a bit of modern yugioh he'd be more patient with it.
duh, the problem is that he needs to do that in the first place
The game just needs to guide new players through the whole timeline. Having a format for every evolutionary step in the game would help a lot. Like having to play 10 games in "Generation 1" before unlocking Synchro, then 10 of those to unlock xyz and so on. Like that you have natural tiers to play where you want to play and you learn all the different rules along the way.
It will dilute the player pool, but it will also get a lot of new players. And if ranked stayes as the most recent format, then everybody will land there eventually.
i mean that's great, but it still doesn't solve the issues of TEXT LONG
it will take you literal months upon months to get even a basic grasp of what every deck can do
not to mention the sheer magnitude of fuckery going on, like how "send to the GY" is different from "destroy" and so on
and the other issue being that you need to watch almost an entire anime episode before it's your turn, and then it's time for the opponent to do the same, so on and so forth
i like yugioh, but holy shit i have absolutely no idea where to even begin when it comes to introducing new players to it, or if it's even a good idea to do so anyways
Plus it gives the yugi boomers a place to play tge fans they like within an official engine
And just let everyone get a break from 50 chain link summons and sometimes you just need the relaxation (especially if you do primarily play synchros or fusions so wouldn’t feel the sting of losing asiexts of the deck as bad)
Also structure deck mode where you pick a structure deck and have only a couple simple additional cards to augment them
I know I’d certainly play that since immortal glories the only thing u have experience with
I think something that would help people get past that complexity barrier would be a bot fuel mode with a few difficulty levels you can select from, and at each difficulty there are a bunch of premade decks of that level of complexity/power that the bot uses. So like very easy starts out DM era slow, medium is like a combo that ends on maybe 1 or 2 decent extra cards, and very hard is close to what youd go against in decently high ranks. It would allow people to slowly ramp up their understanding while also being able to understand their deck more and more each step of the way
The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm.
Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling.
But konami loves money more than they love their players or acrually making master duel a playable game.
I agree. Give 25 tutorial stages (1 for each year of ygo) with whatever big gameplay mechanic that was going on at the time
@@isidoreaerys8745 the drytron herald in solo mode basically ranked deck.
@@SkyFireYZthe guy only played 3 steps of the tutorial and didn't want to play solo mode. Do you really think that more tutorial or bots would have helped? As he said "he wants to play against other players".
this was a necessary video because everything, EVERYTHING Rarran is saying is correct from the perspective of a new player. Farfa tries SO HARD to be like "but this" but he knows that what Rarran is saying, is correct.
not even past first question and Farfa seems can't retort Rarran back lol
Almost like people are taking issue with him screaming at people and calling them petty losers instead of the points he's making.
@@waskithonugroho3955 and try that again but proper English?
Something can be true, but you don't agree with it, nothing wrong with that, they are not mutually exclusive
@@aka_IngmarOh Sorry, English isn't my first language so I don't really aware
He's not wrong though. Rarran felt the overwhelming pressure of not knowing what you're facing when you hit the pvp button. I last played when synchros were a thing back in 2012, to return to a world where Link climbing exist? It's just too much information, really. He was a bit stubborn and his chat, I was there btw, literally trolled him by making him play link decks. Salamangreat is a easy deck to understand... but you need to learn weeks of knowledge of link summoning, combos etc.
His chat trolled him harder than Farfa's, that's surprising.
Also the first story modes where they teach you summoning mechanics and dmg step would have been good to do just to understand a bit. It’s like he only learnt how the pawn moves but not the knight or bishop.
Salamangreat is only difficult to play if you don't know the basic rulings of the game. If you know the rulings of link summoning, xyz summoning, trigger effects etc, then salads is not too difficult to get into. Yugioh isn't the kind of game where you learn a lot of the basic rules by playing. You already need that knowledge to have fun, which makes it different from other card games.
@@plzcme434I disagree on Salamangreat part. Sure, the deck itself and it's lines aren't that complicated (although not that obvious either), however the way you play Sunlight Wolf/Heatsoul control - is. You need to know what you're playing against to effectively use your handtraps and roar/rage to not get immediately blown away, otherwise the deck loses most of its strength. This is why Rarran should've sticked to Dragonmaids or any other deck that aims to execute it's own combo rather than hindering opponent's.
@@plzcme434But that’s what he’s saying is the problem though. It’s not inherently bad that yugioh is that way, but it’s bad that that information is not given to new players from the get go. As someone who has tried to get people to play the game, this is the main thing that really drives people away.
The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm.
Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling.
But konami loves money more than they love their players or actually making master duel a playable game.
We need the Farfa coaching vid next
I think a beginner mode where each person can only use structure decks would be really effective
no not really, we pretty much already have that
the problem is the continental difference between there and the actual game
with a beginner format, how in the hell do you expect to get people to ever leave it?
I think beginners format is the wrong term but a structure deck mode being a side option would probably still be fun
Tldr: Farfa spends 54 minutes trying to dunk on Hearthstone.
If you take the chess analogy again, the start requirement for yugioh might be like higher level chess, where a lot of skill is also in knowing possible moves that have been played in the past and how to counter them. In yugioh you have to know your own deck as well as the opponents decks and their possible moves and ways to counter them.
YGO to chess is like, when you start learning castling or en passant exists... lol
Yugioh is like if chess allowed you to move 10 pieces per turn.
Prediction: Buttermilk Rarranch will soon feel like re-dabbling in Yu-Gi-Oh! and he will hate it again.. But then after a week or so he will feel like logging back in and playing a few games again... He will slowly build a stronger deck that feels rewarding to win with. And within a year he will understand the pull to this debatably awful game.
the tried and true Yu-Gi-Oh experience
Yugioh seems to have the Dark Souls effect on new players
History of every single Yu-Gi-Oh player's life
It happened to all of us, didn't it?
@@aparctias happened to me during D/D/D Format
I think it should have been made clearer to rarran that the changes he wants can only be implemented by konami (as there are a lot ways through the community to learn the game already) and that konami doesn't really listen to any complaints the community makes so everyone basically agrees with is points but is aware that there is not a lot that can be done. People like Mbt,Farfa,cimoo and other big youtuber have been trying to promote alternate formats for years and konami just doesn't really care about it
What can Rarran do after Farfa makes a board with 5 omni-negates? They dont have dark ruler no more and Kaijus in Hearthstone
As someone who switched from playing yugioh to hearthstone this has been super interesting to watch. Game design is fascinating
I did the opposite, I mained miracle rogue in hearthstone now i play shaddoll in yugioh
8:51 I missed out in most of the synchro era, all of the Xyz and Pendulum era and jumped back into the deep ends with minor hiccups but I was able to understand most of what’s happening after like a month of fiddling around
On the topic of games having a tutorial and yugioh being difficult to really understand without a third party guide, that is like another level of tutorial. Most card games give you a tutorial of how to play the game, and that is often enough because it translates into most decks. Yugioh, however, almost requires a tutorial for each deck/archetype because of how drastically different the lines of play are from one to another. Every deck is it's own sub-card game.
I'm gonna throw this out there but my hearthstone experience was played ranked for like a week, got bored did some arena, and finally found that the most fun part of the game was actually the solo modes. And then i dropped it.
I think comparing Yugioh to a Rouge-Like/Souls-Like is a fair comparison.
The game doesn’t give you much to work with at the start and it’s mostly down to trial and error.
The main gameplay is dying over and over and over again while each time you learn a little bit more, each time you figure out something new; “oh, that’s how I damage that enemy”, “oh, that’s how I avoid that attack”.
And you slowly build a knowledge base until you can play for hours without dying until you get blown out by something you’ve never seen before.
I think if you take the losing as part of the game and with each loss your goal is to learn 1 small thing each time, it gets more fun.
I don’t think it’s like souls like or rougelit eat all. Simply put those games you go in trial and error get stronger over time
Yugioh on the other hand is more like you’re OP from the start. Like a fighting game where you need to know your combo and the enemies combo down from the very beginning just by a look at their first few plays (turn 1-2)
MtG and hearthstone is more like souls where you need to brawl out while establishing board state and following a mana curve (leveling in souls)
Both games definitely require knowledge before you go meta like in any game
20: 40 The secret packs in shop do tell you their complexity and other attributes. But it’s weird that you can’t see all the secret packs on md.
21:36 There are loaner decks in events, to be fair. But better loaner decks for ranked would be grand.
Jeez they have so much natural chemistry.
2:09 Immideatly won the entire Argument. Roasted my guy into Oblivion xD
I mean as someone who jumped into yugioh without any tcg knowledge beforehand, I thought it was just natural to look up a guide or some sorts of deck profiles and matches to understand yugioh and as I went to locals, lost a lot of matches and looked up other decks I faced, I understood the win conditions of other decks and cards that are present in the meta as well as learning how to play "optimally". Obviously, this development didnt come in 10 hours but spending a little time every other day of just watching matches or even just reading my cards and understanding my own win condition, greatly improved my skill and knowledge of the game. Tbh this is how I got into Digimon.
Of course Rarran is right with his point that needing a third party guide to enjoy and understand a game is not optimal for a tcg and Master Duel as a TCG Simulator should absolutely stop with the illusion that learning how to normal/tribute summon is enough to go into the game. There absolutely needs to be a section like "here is a match against two meta decks, note the different mechanics they're using which you know/learned" like rarran said in this video.
Yugioh in no shape or form is a shitty game, but it is complex right from the start because even low level decks have a rather complex playstyle for a newcomer which is why Master Duel should function as this guide for new players to introduce them into the game.
Also, I'd like to say that, I introduced my friends into yugioh and basically, everyone enjoyed it and we are still playing it to this day . Of course they were getting demolished at the start and didnt understand but after explaining them the mechanics, how they lost and even themselves looking up how and why they lost, they ended up loving the game
Also Rarran should just read his cards fr
Hard disagree. I genuinely think Yu-Gi-Oh is a poorly designed game. Getting into other TCGs is incredibly simple and even if the skill gap is wide you are at least able to understand the game. There are so many hidden mechanics in this game that every time you get past one wall, you hit another one. It's hard to ever get comfortable like that. And none of that is to mention card design.
Can you imagine spending a week learning the game to a point where you're finally comfortable joining the rank ladder and the first deck you run into is something Arcana Force the world turbo or a deck like barrier statue stun? Decks that don't even let you play the game. Then imagine learning that those decks can't even hold a candle to the 15th best deck of the format? Even with PSCT, we have players that struggle to understand the difference between a cost and a condition or why The Tricky doesn't start a chain but Blaster does. If this game isn't friendly to veteran or returning players how do you think the common new player experience is? I didn't realize how bad it was until I started playing other card games seriously. I was able to hold my own in CFV and Digimon after 1 local tournament each. I understood how to play magic after my second match with a pre-built deck. Was ever ready to top a regional? No. But I had enough confidence to feel comfortable while playing the game. The learning curve with YGO is too steep to do it alone.
People like mbt or Raran who thinks it’s ridiculous to look up a guide are neck deep in boomer compium. I don’t care if you’ve never used a guide, some games and hobbies you need a hand to get into and that’s especially normalized these days and it’s not an unreasonable or bad thing
100% agree. When md came out, one of the first things i did after getting destroyed in ranked was look up what were the best decks, and after that a tri-brigade combo video. Going in blind again didn’t even cross my mind.
@@michaellockett4044 I don't think the example you provided is actually a good one. The World Turbo and Barrier Stun? Sure, those decks sound awful, but they've never been the norm in Yugioh. Neither of those decks have ever been so relevant even in a casual setting so it's pretty dumb. What's funny is the best decks in the game right now allow the player more chances to play than the random one-off floodgate deck so it doesn't really make your point that well. Even the current meta with Kashtira in it has far more back and forth now than those decks did when people were theorycrafting them only to discover they were pretty awful.
You're comparing being introduced to the physical card game to being introduced to Yu-Gi-Oh through master duel.
"I need a guide when I try to play optimally" but doesn't want to get a guide
Farfa is coping if he thinks more people play master duels than Hearthstone. Hearthstones average players monthly is 5 million, Master Duels is around 20k
This all could have been avoided if someone in Rarran's chat told him to try an Invoked deck for his first deck instead of Salad. Easiest game in the world babyyyyy
invoked, swordsoul, sky striker, eldlich, etc there is a lot of archtypes that is very simple to play and understand and while salad isnt ritual beast hard its still not that easy of a deck when its win-con likely isnt clear for someone picking it up for the first time
The only thing I don't agree with this whole debacle is that so many people can get behind the idea of playing any game in isolation is remotely a good thing. Rarran's mistake is simply expecting to intuit every single game he played. It shows when he can't even make Seal turn 1 with his Dragonmaid or Heatsoul turn 1 with his Salad.
Other than that, most of his arguments are solid. The bottom line is that MD as digital YGO is not new player friendly as they expect the player still ask a third party to teach the game.
a good game doesn't need guides and study to be able to play at a basic level yugioh does guides and the like are great if you want to go beyond that but when your starting point is here watch all these videos just to understand the basics you have failed as a game
@@michaelkehabasic level yugioh is easy, there's nothing overly hard or complicated.
Yuhiohs problem is that you can't comprehend it in a day. Most people need more than a day to fully grasp all the card types and how they function with each other. It's like driving, you can learn all the basics in a day but your far from actually being able to go drive on the road well.
@@michaelkeha the issue is that you don't ever find yourself in an enviroment to get used to the basics, because, YGO is not a complicated game, the mechanics are quite simple to understand on their own. The fact that you don't have to worry about a resource system also makes deck building easier. Even the fucking card text is very intuititive once you know what PSCT is.
the reason why modern YGO is complex is because it requires you to have an intimate knowledge of both how the different mechanics interact with each other and what the impact of card effects are.
Dragon Maid, Dark Magician. They are not complicated decks, but even a beginner would struggle to understand what the impact of their plays actually means for the gamestate.
Because Master Duel just throws you into a very deep pool and goes "lol learn to swim nerd"
@@michaelkeha He just needed to play the actual tutorial, he only did 1/3 of it and then jumped straight into ranked. Dragonmaids was a completely fine deck to learn the game with all things considered.
@@michaelkeha what are you talking about? Summoning Seal or Heatsoul is the bare minimum the deck can do and link summon into link climbing is literally taught in the Solo Mode (Duel Training gate). If he is unaware of that because he skips the tutorial, it's his mistake.
From my understanding, Hearthstone has 4500+ cards in "standard" format with 3000+ wild cards which 7500+ cards in total, while Yu-Gi-Oh! has 11000+ cards (excluding Normal-Type Main Deck cards), and all of those cards are "standard", no wild card and such.
And like Farfa said, Yu-Gi-Oh! is a social based card game that introducing it's digital form (Master Duel or Duel Links), while Hearthstone is likely to be a pure online card game.
HS's card effects mostly just like Pot of Greed the shortest and maybe like Night Express Knight the longest, with one effect 95-99% of the time with some that has 2 effects. while YGO's cards upon release did not have any effects and gradually have one. In time YGO cards released with more text with one effect that describing _when, how, and what_ to do with the card when activating the cards (maybe in HS this is the mana thing). Modern YGO cards got more text and more effects on top of describing of when, how, and what to do with the card when activating it.
In that sense, maybe we can understand Rarran's dilemma experiencing YGO. 11000+ cards with no limit of using as long as the text did not say otherwise, an earth diameter of text to comprehend and read, also we must not forget the ATTRIBUTE, TYPE, SUB-TYPE, LEVEL, ATK, DEF, Card Type and/or Summoning Type of the cards to be considered on making a deck to be played.
Historically, YGO is just like HS in a sense, one monster per turn and maybe 1-4 cards in Spell/Trap zone and End turn. In time introducing a new summoning method while preserving the old one, Ritual, Fusion, Synchro, Xyz, Pendulum, and Link. These summoning methods are not introduced in one go. The are introduced at least with three till five years gap in average. Cards added to counter other cards, added to add more complexity, or added as power creep itself.
Also, in YGO, we have what we called stapples, core, and other terms to be considered.
TLDR: HS is a small amount of text card game while Yugioh is the vice vesa.
This Arc is getting crazy, Im ready for MTB video/reaction to the Debate.
On the question what would bring me back to yugioh, i would say an actual interactive multi turn gameplay loop with Setup and strategy planed out over multiple turns with setups and executes. That would bring me back, otherwise i won't come back.
I have to agree current day yugioh is very flawed. The problem with it started when special summoning wasn't special anymore. OTKs are too easy to pull off without certain hand traps which replaced trap cards in alot of ways. Monster effects have also become way too bloated. The only viable way for new players is to play antimeta. Still better than hearthstone though
Literally just read the end board. It’s so frustrating hearing someone say they don’t know how they lost when they just don’t read the information actively given to them.
I really like the explanation here of not thinking of terms of card for card/ turn by turn like hearthstone or magic. Yu gi oh is usually more knowing how each part of your deck is connected to the other parts of your deck and what specifically you are trying to do.
But that’s every card game….
Knowing what your cards are and how they connect to other cards and your eventual win con
It’s just more like the games are reversed, late game mtg is early game Yugioh
You start your engine and his the gas as hard as you can in Yugioh, whereas the other games you slowly build your engine while the trying to stop your opponents (which applies to Yugioh as well but at an alarming pace as your engine is already playable)
Main difference is definitely pace
34:40 mannequin cat can summon almost any monster in general, not just level 2, thats kinda why it is insane
He probably meant Gigantic Spright, or even thought of both at the same time x)
Solo gates try to give you a demonstration of how a deck works and shows some interactions with other archetypes. The problem is that there isn't enough depth in the gates and most of the decks aren't relevant to the current game environment.
In theory, solo gates seem really cool, but in practice, they just clog your brain with 20 elementsaber cards
@@Lyrog and that was what I was getting at. There isn't enough depth towards the archetype and they'll throw in random archetypes that have never actually had synergy in a practical setting.
The real issue is that games ending on turn one after 15 minutes of the opponent playing cards is only really fun for one of the two players. With almost any other card game, most games have enough back and forth that everyone comes out of the game feeling like their deck got to do something, regardless of whether they won or got first turn etc.
About the YuGiOh formats: Yes, Rarran is right, most games you play the current meta. MOST games. But the difference is. In YuGiOh you ALWAYS play with Wild Format. If a beginner start playing Hearthstone and the base game is Wild, he would be pissed with power crept version of their starting cards. While "Standard" format for YGO would be Edison. A less powerful self-contained version of the game.
So Yes, Edison is easier for you to start with the game.
Edit: Also, yeah, HS is a more popular online card game. And wait wait wait... Really Farfa?? REALLY?! Bots cannot won in YuGIoh? REALLY?!............ REALLY?! Didn't we got a horrible Bot attack and the banlist had to adapt to get rid of easy win bots? Can we just bring back DD Dynamite?
The problem isn't the mode existing or not, it's how new players are directed. In Hearthstone, you can't even play Wild until you've cleared the apprentice ranks, and even then the game heavily directs you towards Standard.
Can’t wait for the speed duel follow up. Even as a yugiboomer, that format is goated
Yugioh player : Dissing Yugioh
Yugioh community : Haha. Funny. Very related
Non-Yugioh player : Dissing Yugioh
Yugioh community : HOW DARE YOU TRASH TALK YUGIOH!!
I personally think yugioh's main issue is how poorly konami has shepherded the game to the modern day. Where games like magic have been able to translate well and keep the game accessible yugioh has become more and more unfriendly to casual players
Somebody call a judge, because Farfa and Rarran are building an infinite loop!
The One Piece analogy is so good.
As someone who has both been playing Yugioh and watching (really reading) One Piece since they made it to the US...I truly am in too deep to not stick with it, despite the ups and downs! That's not to say that new people can't get into either, but CONVINCING SOMEONE to invest the massive amount of free time to get through the early slog where you're getting introduced to everything and used to all the quirks...I totally get anyone's hesitation. But I also feel like people who stick with it find it rewarding...or at-least mildly fun :D
I think the biggest issue here is that People want to change Yugioh in a way that makes it more beginner friendly, but it's nearly impossible to do so at this point. The reason why is that it would strip Yugioh of it's identity in the TCG space. Yugioh is probably the only game that says, "Here are the softlimits of the game, go nuts" because the only real limitations imposed on the player is the player's skill level and the cards in their deck. Every other limit in the game is negotiable, almost making the game a game of trying to wield infinite potential. Trying to limit the player or slow the game down turns Modern Yugioh into a completely different game.
We see this by looking back at every single good deck. Very few games have good kitchen sink decks, but it seems that in Yugioh there's almost always a good rogue option. Dragonlink has been at least rogue for the past 7 or so years. What makes that deck good isn't that it's just an amazing archetype. It doesn't even lock the opponent out especially hard in comparison to some other stun decks, it's the fact that it skirts the "limitations" of what the base game allow so well that you out resource and out power your opponent. Same thing for Ishizu Tear, which is arguably the best example of this idea, Ishizu Tear cards in a vacuum didn't do anything super unfair in comparison to other cards, but outresourced and outgrinded the opponent, not just so well, but also so fast that it was almost pointless to even play the game. Very few other games have so many cards that express themselves in such a way, but since other TCG's tend to have hard limits, or resources that need to be spent in order to do something, it's hard to convert players from other games into Yugioh players.
How do you fix the game? Well, to be purely honest, there's nothing wrong with the game if you want to encourage a game where your skill is the only thing that limits you. If we keep modern Yugioh the way it is, rewarding skill expression and card abuse, then Konami would have to REALLY invest in alternative formats. Invest in ways that doesn't cannabalize the modern player population, which is very difficult to do. You'd have to balance and then market it outward, rather than inward. And that's just a heavy risk to take.
If on the other hand, you would want to change modern yugioh to have limits, then you would need to take a shotgun approach like the original Idea of Master Rule 4, but instead of making all of these alternative ways to get around the limits, you never let anyone get around the limits at all. Pendulum is a great example of slowing the game down, in master Rule 4, with the exception of one archetype(Pendulum Magicians), pendulum became fair, so fair that not a single other pendulum archetype could really keep up with the speed of the game. They were hard limited by mechanics, and had no real ways of getting around the limitations that they had set on them. The issue is, is that the pendulum mechanic as a whole had it's identity changed, arguably for the worse, as Most pendulum decks no longer look the same when coming out of dev, and all older pendulum archetypes are either no longer pure pendulums, or have dropped off the face of the planet, as they just cannot keep up.
Do what Magic does. *Create formats*.
So crazy idea make tutorials that are good
@@hibiki8473 The problem is, is that the tutorials would never be comprehensive enough for you to get to the skill level required to play "casual" yugioh. Rather than tutorials to get your skills to the level needed to play the meta, you are instead building extremely comprehensive deck tutorials. And that's a level of investment that's too much to ask if you want active participation in your game.
@hwahTV I agree, Konami needs to create a good alternative format that's easy to step into, moderately rewards skill expression and doesn't create non games for one party as well as has room to grow(set support). Effectively you need an alternative to Modern Yugioh that still gets set support but has hard limits. And then on top of that, Konami would need to support it with tournaments and community events.
@@TsuikeNovaus so crazy idea make tutorials good and people understand a basic idea what's going on what's fucking wrong with all of you no one saying the tutorial makes you understand 100% of every card but give you a fucking idea. You people are why Yu-Gi-Oh will die
A better example of a game people often need a guide to progress is dark souls and retro games like castlevania.
I don't think the problem RhongoRan has with yugioh is reading the cards necessarily, just not taking what the cards do in conjunction with the other cards in his deck to know when, how, and why they play together. Of course the game doesn't exactly tell you how to do this and is more of a skill players developed after playing the game for such a long time.
The worst part of MD is that scheduling gem deals, "new cards" packs and cosmetics is more important than new player experience
As someone who watched all 7 hours of Rarran's stream I have 3 issues:
1. Why was Rarran ok with chat coaching him but not another person? He was trying to get 'the new player experience' but all he got was 'I am going to google a good deck to play and figure out the combo lines but instead I get a bunch of random people to google for me and confuse me by pulling me in 20 different directions. Understanding the cards and what they do on my own? No thank you I will be turning my brain off and reading chat"
2. He tried jumping into casual without even finishing the tutorial. Why would you enter a game with another human if you dont even know how to set cards or summon monsters. Its like the meme of the guy poking a stick into his bicycle and falling over and blaming the bicycle but in video format. What did he think was going to happen if he doesnt even know that left mouse button fires the weapon or spacebar is jump?
3. He played only 4 casual games, went first twice and went second twice. How can he say stuff like "I didnt even get to play the game and already lost" in just 4 games. I feel like he is bringing up issues that he did not experience for himself and is just regurgitating stuff he heard from other people about the game.
I honestly got frustrated watching him constantly shoot himself in the foot and getting mad of stuff he did to himself
The comment of Yu-Gi-Oh being bigger online is very funny. Hearthstone has a far larger player base
Back when Rarran was talking to people from other card games, quizzing them on what hearthstone cards are real, I wanted the MBT/Farfa collab. Haha at least it happened through some means eventually lol
hes done plenty of videos on yugioh cards with stevie blunder!
Rarran: *well constructed long speech*.
Farfa: "your game shet. Yoo am so much better then YOU people"
Dunno if he is just joking or saying stuff like this for content, but everytime he says stuff like this is so cringe and childish.
If there's one thing I'd make mention of, if they didn't already, it's that knowledge between Hearthstone and Runeterra and Magic and all of them can easily transfer between each other due to similar base mechanics present within the systems. Yugioh is... *Really* not like any of those, so it makes sense that someone who primarily played those games would have trouble with it.
That's kind of the point of this entire convo, there is no game which has transferable skill to YGO, and there is also not a good new player experience. Both those things combined makes for a game that slowly looses players and doesn't gain many
I’m one of those people who went from never having played and knowing nothing about Yugioh before MasterDuel came out to now where I can play and “full combo” consistently with most decks I start playing. I know it takes a lot of time and commitment but it really wasn’t hard. The only advice I had going in was from a friend who played duel links saying “there’s probably going to be a website with decklists”. I crafted what was essentially a full power VW deck and spent many dozens of games functionally clicking buttons learning eventually that Shenshen was a good card and with some basic combos I could summon a rank 9 Xyz monster. I summoned VFD maybe once, not even remotely comprehending what it’s effect did, and opted to either end on Phantom Fortress or awkward synchro monsters. It took me a long time to figure out that VFD was even good and a little bit after that I consumed actual Yugioh content on UA-cam and learned that VFD was in fact an unbelievably powerful card.
I think with, at the bare minimum, a decklist of a powerful deck and some basic reading comprehension that you can learn what cards do and vaguely intuit how you’re supposed to use them and even what your opponent is doing even if it’s only a surface level understanding. I think that people who naturally like something will seek out content about that thing, purely for entertainment if not learning purposes.
It is pretty problematic that it can be such a chore to actually go and get decklists in Yugioh though, I play and have played Hearthstone and they are genuinely spoiled rotten with how easy deck code sharing is. Structure decks obviously need an overhaul, but I do think copying a deck is a much better learning experience for learning the whole crafting system and secret pack system and a little of the collection page.
If only you could get bitches😔
Lol I hadn't played YGO for a decade when MD came out.
I ended up playing lyrilusc tri brigade as my first deck and I just looked up my combo routes and how to play the modern game on youtube.
Then I forgot how to read cards and settled on playing fucking Exosister, so I think I adapted to YGO pretty well.
I really wish yugioh would just ban every negates in the game so it can actually be fun. In master duel, going past 2 turns is the most fun thing to do once u go past the wall of negates