A Critique of Lordship Salvation | Theocast
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- We have gotten a number of questions regarding Lordship Salvation and the historic, reformed position on it. So, today, that is what Jon and Justin talk about. We talk about concerns over the definition of faith, the collapsing of law and gospel, and confusion on the uses of the law. We interact with John MacArthur's book, "The Gospel According to Jesus," as well as Michael Horton's "Christ the Lord."
Semper Reformanda: The guys talk more on uses of the law--and how confusing the first and third use of the law is particularly damaging. Justin also offers thoughts on how some Puritan theology is unhelpful.
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#LordshipSalvation #JohnMacArthur #ReformedTheology
Even my tears of Repentance must be washed in the blood of Jesus Christ. - Whitfield.
Wow. I grew up at mcarthurs church and recently turned reformed Baptist. This blew my mind. Been feeling condemned my whole life for no reason 🙃
We need to keep the commandments for salvation. Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Also “not murdering” is not a work, that’s being obedient.
@@factsforgod1512 repent
Just wondering why you would feel condemned for your whole life … presumably because you attended Grace Community Church. How did they condemn you?
I felt that way too for 10 years since He called me into His light. But He now is slowly and gently taking away all guilt and condemnation i've had around certain passages and false teachings.
@@factsforgod1512
You read it condemning, and sadly even by feeling condemned by reading it projecting the fear of your own heart unto others. The text also says, you were washed, you were justified (past tense). In other words Paul is not saying beware to be condemned and cast into hell. But rather reminds us of our position in Christ, and by that saying these behaviours don't suite you. That's talking within grace other than Law.
We are saved by grace ,not of ourselves but is a gift of God.
In context, are you saying that we should live for the Devil?
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
"He that says he knows him, but does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)
In Mark 10:19, Jesus says we must keep his commandments to inherit eternal life. Likewise, Paul in Galatians 5:19-21 lists all the behaviors that will prevent us from entering heaven. Grace doesn't mean you are free to continue in sin. Also, it isn't true that faith automatically produces fruit. In the parable of the talents, Jesus says the fruitless servant had faith that his Master would reap even where nothing had been sown. He was condemned.
"He that heareh my words and doeth them not, is like a man who built his house on the sand; after that a great storm arose, and the waves beat upon it, and the wind also, and the house fell into the sea, and great was the fall thereof."
Jesus doesn't say we perish for not believing his words alone, he says we perish because we don't _act on his words._
"We see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)
Jesus himself taught salvation by obedience to his teachings. Paul, John, Peter, and James did also.
@@PETERJOHN101 I'm under the impression that this video is a demonic doctrine. I think it is claiming that "God's Grace" extends to everyone and everything unconditionally. Theoretically, that would include Satan and his angels.
But the message I'm getting from it is to "live for the Devil, don't worry about it because God's grace will save you."
Or this could be the old "faith" versus "works" argument.
If you make Jesus Christ your Lord, then you will be saved. And one of the reasons for this is because you will obey God.
Those who are against "Lordship Salvation" appear to be saying that we do not have to make Jesus Lord. That is the antichrist's message.
Matthew 7:21&22 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
@@RickT7 Remember the context. The video is saying, essentially, "Making Jesus Lord or Serving Him is WORKS and works will never save you."
Their definition of Grace seems to be "serve whoever, God's grace will save you."
So it is reasonable to ask, "do you mean that we should serve the devil?"
Remember, Paul essentially asks this same question.
Because...
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Paul asks...
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Why?
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
So we are to become servants of Righteous, which in context, is basically the reverse of what they are saying.
And to receive that gift you must accept it...
By having faith
the more ive grown to know the Lord the more i trust him and the more i trust him the more obedient i become this is the natural progression of relationship
Well said. Simple. Clear. Relatable.
Thank you for the ebook Faith vs Faithfulness When a doubt comes about my salvation I say “there is nothing I can do;
It is what Jesus did.”
The Sermon on the Mount articulates not what you must do to be saved, but what a citizen of the kingdom of God is like. It's not just law, it's law filled all the way up, magnified, and taught as the way of the disciple of Jesus. It does drive us to the foot of the cross, but it also puts a spotlight on the cross and on Christ as the one through which this kingdom comes.
@@blakekendall6156 I don't understand when people say to go to the foot of the cross, or when they say to "live at the foot of the cross." Jesus isn't there. He is seated at the right hand of God. It is His resurrection that brought life, not His death. His death removed the barrier of sin that kept us from being reconciled to God. Faith in Christ's death for payment of our sins and His resurrection that brought life is our guarantee of eternal life. But, He is not at the cross now. We are to go confidently to THE THRONE of grace. Not the cross. That's why the Bible says He died ONCE for all. Going to the cross is like saying He is still there. But, if He is not alive and seated at the right hand of God, we have no hope of eternal life. The Bible says we have died with Christ. We can't die again, just like Jesus can't die again. It says we are seated with Him in heaven. Why go to the cross? He isn't there! It is the very fact that He rose from the dead that we have life and free access to God. His death washed away sins. His life gives access to the throne of God. The Bible also says not to think of Christ as in the flesh. He is no longer in the flesh on the cross. It says to " think on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God." Just my two cents on the matter.
We are focusing too much on "faith" but not the object of our faith. The object of our faith is Jesus Christ's complete substitutionary atonement for our sins. "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption." Paul makes clear that in Christ we receive all that is related to a right relationship with Christ. It is from there that we grow as completely justified and sanctified people.
Per 1 Pt 1.9 the goal of our faith is the salvation of the soul through sanctification. We are justified at our spirit rebirth but our soul is not saved at this point so many people dont behave as though reborn nor do they pursue Christ but they are called non the less. This is the confusion because the body is in three parts and all three must be redeemed. Everything is lumped together and thus the confusion. Only justification and glorification are guaranteed for believers, not sanctification.
Amen👏
Amen! These two guys are steeped into Calvinism and religion no differently than MacArthur. Be fixated on Jesus indeed!!!!! He is truly glorious!!!!
John 6:28-29. To know The Works of God.
John 6:40. To know The Will of God. The battlefield is in your mind. It doesn’t take much for Satan to get believers to doubt John 3:16. He gets Pastor’s to conflate Salvation and Discipleship. Parable of the seeds in effect.
My faith lies not in me but in christ all sufficient perfect work with his death, burial and resurrection.
That’s John MacArthur’s side. So are you siding with him over these Theocast teachers?
If you don't OBEY Jesus, you have No faith in Him !
@@toddstevens9667it’s not that John MacArthur wouldn’t believe that statement, but rather that he uses confusing language and misidentifies the law and the gospel in certain passages. This confusion is inconsistent with what he says he believes (which I think he is being truthful when he says he believe in salvation by faith alone fyi).
@@TheLordismyportionNot being argumentative, but where does he confuse law and Gospel? I’m not defending him, I am honestly interested.
@@toddstevens9667 I think a good example of this is the story of the rich young ruler as mentioned in the video. In “The Gospel According to Jesus”, MacArthur begins exegeting the passage correctly by identifying that Jesus did not give the rich young ruler the gospel, but rather the law; the man asked what he must “do” to inherit eternal life, so Jesus gave him God’s requirements.
But the conclusion John draws about the man betrays his initial exegesis. John concludes that the man was rejected by Christ because he wasn’t willing to give up everything in order to follow Him. There are a few issues with this position:
1) Jesus is addressing the rich young ruler on the level of his presupposition that he has kept the law. Both in his original question “what must I DO” and in his explicit statement “all of these I have kept since my youth”. So Jesus is merely pointing out that the standard is perfection and that the man hasn’t kept and cannot keep the law perfectly, and therefore stands condemned on his own.
So in one way John is correct that the rich young ruler was rejected for breaking the law through idolatry, but he infers that the necessary mechanism for following Jesus is by abstaining from idolatry and loving God (i.e. keeping the law). The law is the rich young ruler’s problem, but he thinks it’s the solution. It is not the solution for any Christian. The solution is trusting in who Christ is, what He has done to forgive sin, and only by faith are we accepted before God through Christ’s righteousness. While John would affirm this statement, his conclusion from this passage is not consistent with it.
2) John often uses the law in the same way by prescribing christians to give up everything to follow Christ, which in this context can only ever be the source of the problem as explained earlier. This is characteristic of lordship salvation. As was also mentioned in the video, the lordship salvation position is an overcorrection in response to nominalism. While the good works and obedience of the believer is necessary, it is only a byproduct of faith in Christ. They don’t do anything in terms of our standing before God.
Our obedience also fluctuates because we battle remaining sin. Once you start saying that our assurance and confirmation comes from our obedience, then the standard goes right back up to perfection, which was the rich young ruler’s problem. Instead of charging believers to look inward and question their salvation when their actions don’t always match their confession, we are told to look to the Savior and to remember what forgiveness is already ours in Christ.
This is the only way we are even able to yield good works. It’s for this reason that distinguishing the law and the gospel correctly is so important. If the rich young ruler were to truly believe, it would have looked more like Bartimaeus the blind beggar saying “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me”. As a side note, I think law-gospel distinctions are hard for John due to his dispensational hermeneutic.
Agree my brothers, John and many in this camp are not heretics or false teachers, but I believe they are confused and unhelpful , esp with this " teaching" . Thank you brothers for your guys of handling difference, may God's grace be with us when we share difference with those of the faith
Very good and clear points my question is what if MacArthur happens to see this video and the points made but refuses to repent..
I've unfortunately never been encouraged when I listened to Paul washer or John MacArthur when I'm hearing the gospel from them... RC Sproul is a different story I was encouraged by him many a times for his clarification and accuracy...I have had plenty of people come to me through the years as well and tell me both John MacArthur an Paul washer have disrupted their faith in Jesus by getting them to look at themselves for some measure of rightness before God...
Romans 10:4 ( For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.)
Thanks for being brave enough to go against the grain of people in your own camp to clarify this glorious gospel...
Peace 2 you..
The Bible says we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in fact truly saved: 2 Corinthians 13:5. Obviously we know that not all who "say the prayer" are actually saved. Some of them will say, "Lord, Lord..."Christ says you will know a true believer by his fruit. There are so many more scriptures that say the same thing.
@@croppedndocked146 I actually just posted a video a few minutes ago addressing some of the things that you brought up here in this comment...I hope you take time to take in the consideration God bless. ..ua-cam.com/video/2C7wOc69qgo/v-deo.html
I can’t say the same thing about MacArthur, Paul Washer however… 100 percent agree.
@@croppedndocked146 The "Lord, Lord" crowd are those who declare their WORKS before God....The fruit of the spirit is BELIEVING the Gospel. Works is the path to destruction, as Man is not justified by works in the sight of God,but by faith! If you knew God's word, you'd see this! First clue- Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:2-6
@@croppedndocked146 No, you've got that wrong. Calvinists say that faith is evidence of your salvation becuase their soteriology demands it: regeneration before faith. That means P = Perseverance of the Saints means that discipleship is co-existent with salvation (grace) = saving faith. This is Calvinism talking, not The Bible. What else can they mean then? Who are we evidencing these fruits to? It can only be ourselves. Why? If you simply believe and have faith? Truth is they don't have faith - they try to develop it by their own efforts and call it saving faith. We have no part to play in grace, yet they try to make out we do.
The Bible really means that when you disciple, you do so out of reverence and thanks for the Lord for having saved you already. So you examine yourself (1 John) to ensure you are not forgetting what God did for you already or you test that you believe he did die for you in the first place and are saved. But it is also to ensure that you are discipling the best you can and not getting lazy (but this isn't contingent upon salvation, which is a done deal whether you disciple or not). Paul said the same to the Saints at Corinth. Did he ever refer to them as unbelievers? No. How can you show reverance and love for the Lord if it is transactional over something as important as salvation? It's bound to be out of fear (being scared), not reverance (which means fear of the Lord, oddly enough).
Calvinists have distorted a lot of what the Bible speaks of to bolster their Doctrines of Grace. But everything from Acts onwards is really about post-salvific discipleship out of reverance and love for God, than it is about sotoriology and what we have to do to obey to gain salvation, which is handled in the four first books. That is why there is much spoken about regarding doing good works: we are, as Christians, designed for good works. We can't possible have that tied in with gaining or achieving salvation otherwise you are back to the law again. That is what the book of Galatians tackles.
I must say that some of the NT is quite confusing, but Calvinists always conflate discipleship with soteriology and call grace - saving faith instead. But make no mistake about it. Salvation is achieved simply by believing on the Lord (trusting that once he starts a good work in you he will finish it and has justified and sanctified you already). Nothing we can do will make a jot of difference, even excellent and devoted discipleship and total obedience to his word. We are totally dependent on the Lord to save us, like a new born is dependent on a parent. That may explain why it is apt to call us 'born again'.
We manifest our belief in the Lord by thanking him - not for salvation - but because of salvation. A big difference.
We are either saved by faith plus good works or we are saved by faith alone. It is one of those two
Exactly, I think that’s what “free grace”is trying to say
@@tonyfierro992 Absolutely. The Reformed position is convenant theology: transactional, it amounts to: to accept God's grace in exchange for discipleship works = saving faith. Or no works, no grace = no faith = no salvation. To co-combine the two amounts to Lordship Salvation = Salvation By Works. Discipleship should be completely divorced form soteriology, which is based on Grace as a free gift = simply by believing on the Lord Jesus (the only thing you can do). Discipleship is what Christians do out of choice to thank God and revere him for saving them already.
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, *Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?*
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, *keep the commandments.*
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, *Which?* Jesus said, *Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,*
Matthew 19:19 *Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.*
_In Matthew 19:16 a man asks, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?”_
_Matthew 19:17 Jesus replies, “... keep the commandments.”_
_Matthew 19:18 the man then asks, “Which?” (meaning “which” commandments)._
_Matthew 19:18-19 Jesus' replies by reciting from the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself._
_According to Exodus 34:28 the words of the covenant [are] the ten commandments._
Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables *the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.*
Actually there are other possibilities … just saying. Both sides of this debate agree that sinners are saved by grace through faith alone. But I’m assuming that your claiming that one side or the other teaches that we are saved by faith plus works. Which side are you accusing of that position?
@@KeepingWatch95 Uh-huh, so your saying you managed to keep all ten of the commandments. You'll have to forgive me if I find that hard to believe but good for you buddy. I'm sure you'll get many crowns.
Lordship is not dangerous; Lordship is beautiful.
Proclaiming Christ is Lord is what we should all do, but the moment you bring obedience or any works into your justification you destroy the Gospel and you become a Pharisee.
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Romans 4:5 ESV
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9 ESV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 3:28 ESV
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 ESV
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-
Philippians 3:9 ESV
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 2:16 ESV
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:24 ESV
I agree. I believe that it is faith alone is what allows salvation, but I believe complete submission to Christ (Lordship) is something that happens as a result of salvation through a continual process of sanctification.
@@shannelanderson8122 As history unfolds and the gap widens between Christ's resurrection and the present, the more favorable Lordless Christianity becomes.
Salvation and discipleship are clearly different things. Please consider studying your Bible and get away from MacArthur and these two guys. Consider trying The Grace Message by James Farley Ministries. Excellent Bible teacher.
@@tonydelicati4203 You need to consider studying your Bible and to stop listening to Farley Ministries.
If you love someone, you'll want to do what they want. I love God, he saved me and brought me and the woman I'm with back to Christ, back to the need of Jesus.
One thing the world today needs to understand is the Bad News that is the reality of our world. That mankind has an evil fallen nature, every time we try to create a Utopia or a paradise that is without God, we are set up to fail already.
To save mankind, God had to send his son to endure and pay for the human condition, to endeavor suffering as man suffers in his sin. Jesus Christ is the gospel, the bridge back to the God of objective reality itself.
I am so glad that I am not reformed, but I have been transformed by the renewing of my mind. Romans 12:2
The Word of God is sufficient.
Thank you Lord.
The word of God is sufficient, and our understanding of it varies from person to person. So the meaning of scripture only happens upon interpretation of it. If that makes sense.
@@BroncoYeller Yes. That makes sense. That is why it is good to have civilized discussions of controversial topics so that individuals can come to their own conclusions. And these guys do a good job of that.
@@mrnoedahl I would only modify your point a little if I may. We desire civil discussion leading to the right conclusions (beliefs). People already have their beliefs (conclusions), but we are better off holding the right beliefs. Does that make sense?
...and here we are, in the comments, arguing legalism and works already 🤦🏻♂️👇..I came here genuinely searching for answers but there's people echoing toxic pharisical mindsets that I'm trying to free myself from
John MacArthur infuses Law into the gospel, Paul Washer is good in crushing believing christians with self doubt about their salvation. Truly enjoyed every part of this discussion. God bless.
Thank you very much for this clarification Jon and Justin for giving clearance about the confusement around brother John MacArthur and his use of language to defend the Gospel and to explain the misstake he made what brought forth GoLawspel.
❤️🙏🏼
Lordship DAMATION IM FREE OF THIS TEACHING
I am an avowed dispensationalist and I don’t understand your comments on how MacArthur being a dispensationalist affects his view of Matthew 7. I totally agree 100% with your reformed view and your take on lordship salvation. I agree Matthew 7 is law and not the gospel. The Schofield Reference Bible (in every version thereof) also agrees the sermon on the mount is law and not gospel. Maybe I misunderstood the reference to dispensationalism and MacArthur but the traditional dispensational view is that the sermon on the mount is law. Christ was born under it, fulfilled its demands, both in righteousness and its penalty of death on our account, and would be in agreement with everything you guys said in this video. MacArthur is the one who is stepping out of his dispensationalism and confusing/mingling the dispensations of law and grace.
452Rob : Exactly. I totally agree with your comment and approach. Be blessed
Just donated, can't wait to read 'Christ the Lord.'
Thanks brother!
Excellent book.
I am so glad that because of John Calvin I can read and understand Gods word. Where would I be without his book, “The Institutes of The Calvin Religion”. I would be stuck with just the Bible. What a tragedy.
Working for 30 years within a Catholic country as a missionary, it is amazing to see how close to Catholic Theology JMac is in his Lordship Salvation message. The major difference between JMac and Catholics is ONLY that they require different works but on both sides Faith Alone is not enough.
Faith alone saves
Your works contribute exactly 0% to your salvation
Saving faith produces works, not the other way around
Nonsense, if Jesus is not your Lord, make him so today. Many "Christians" abandon the faith who were shallow believers, saying a prayer and going to church, but never truly submitted their lives to Jesus. They were never Christians.
@@stevehardwick7285 No, you're wrong. It's not because they didn't do works enough, but because they don't have faith and think they don't need Saviour "that much".
You DON'T have Any faith in Jesus if you Don't obey Him.
You IGNORED All of Jesus' teachings !
You love your sins too much !
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, @@endtimesareuponus8930
I have to disagree wholeheartedly. I was a fake Christian most of my life. I was never assured, because sin was so rampant, and my life was indistinguishable from a non believer.
When I came to understand repentance, the Holy Spirit cleaned up so much sin in my life. My desire for holiness, and disgust with sin both increased. So yes, I DO look at the changes in my heart...and life as evidence of saving faith. I am NOT the same person I was before. Of course I still sin, but it grieves me now from a repentant heart.
This is taken from the website of MacArthur's church. It does not seem to be saying that obedience is part of the definition of the word "faith." It seems to be saying that the person who has faith in Christ will be characterized by obeying Christ, but obedience is not the same as faith. "The Character of Saving Faith. True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3,5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9) and pursue Christ (Matthew 11:28-30; John 17:3) and obedience to Him (1 John 2:3). It isn’t enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don’t love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10)."
Yes I don’t see what is to disagree with here. I think that honestly a lot of disagreement with this is based on emotion. I’ve been doing a lot of research on this and I’ve noticed that a lot of people who disagree with say MacArthur or Paul washer on lordship salvation say they don’t like it because it makes them question their assurance, ie, they feel bad (not to be dismissive or mocking as it can sound like that on text). The issue I have with that is that there are many parts of scripture that cause a particular emotional reaction in me. If I’m being challenged on something that makes me feel bad and call into question or not whether I’m a Christian or not because I’m watching Netflix more than I’m reading my Bible or I’m more passionate about worldly things than godly things, it is good opportunity to, while being reminded of justification through faith in Christ alone, question my spiritual health. Solid lordship salvation proponents would in this case not accuse this person of not being a Christian but would probably encourage them to repent of worldliness in the strength of the Spirit while holding fast to our security in Christ.
Wow! The gushing over JM at the beginning about how influential he’s been and your apology (almost) to him makes me wonder why I should believe you rather than him. I’ll never understand how often those who disagree with him without bending over backwards gushing about him - that is never done for anyone else.
ALL glory, honor, and praise to ALL of who God is for us is in Christ Jesus!
I've noticed that you tend to say certain theological positions are "unhelpful". But how does your opinion on the helpfulness of a theological assertion speak to whether or not it's correct? As a sinner, I didn't think it was helpful that there was a God who wanted to pour out his wrath on me for my sin, but that didn't mean anything with regards to it being true. If by "unhelpful" you mean it's not biblical (i.e. True), I think it would be, ironically, more helpful to outright say that and provide biblical reasons for it.
Agreed.
Because the gospel is helpful. The burden is light. If you preach that it isn't helpful or that the burden is not light, then you're not preaching the gospel.
We are not saved from sin to be a sinner. Adam is replaced by Christ who obeys the Law and this obedience is counted to us. We are saved by works, hrist’s works.
I accept Jesus as my lord. No one can say to me that I try to earn my salvation. It is a fruit and gift of grace that Jesus is my sheppard. A sheppard commands the ways.Sheeps follow because they rely on the sheppard I am really shocked because of the discussion if jesus should be lord or not.
John MacArthur definitely preaches ANOTHER gospel! How can you say he doesn't?
graftme : I unfortunately agree with you. And this "false gospel" causes a lot of harm around him! How should we regard a preacher who preaches such an "other gospel"? I have been so hurt by this "twisted" gospel. May the Lord forgive, enlighten and lead us in His wonderful grace. Be blessed.
Man, thank you for sharing this. I was messed up pretty good.
WAS PAST TENCE, I WAS TO
So thankful for this clarification as I recently had this discussion with an elder. I am always hesitant to use the word "conditional" when it comes to assurance. Although I subscribe to Lordship Salvation, I think it is imperative that we qualify that word --and that we be theologically balanced between law and grace. I am much more comfortable relying on the blood of Jesus for my assurance than I am my own performance as I am quite flawed.
The greatest problem with JMac teaching is his Calvinism not his Lordship salvation issue. Christ is already Lord of all.
The book “The Gospel According to Jesus” is an excellent book. Everyone should read it.
Reformed theology is a cover name for Calvinism. Which is a false doctrine and false doctrine.
I love that you say... Encouraging christians to rest in christ and not encouraging them to obey Christ.. Resting in Christ causes obedience.. or better yet is the causation of obedience
If Kathy would come to me, I would be willing to lay my life down for her. I tell her: "Kathy, I love you." If she steps out confessing she chooses me, then we become one. At the altar call, I was under great conviction; Jesus said these words to me: Steve, I love you. When He sais that, I said to myself, I'm coming to that One. and I did, and He saved me.
Right before Jesus told the r.y.r., the hard words, - remember what He did? -right there in front of everybody, "Jesus beholding him, loved him." ...Looking right into the eyes of the Lord, and the Lord loving him. That wasnt an offer to be born again; that wasnt possible at that time. But it was an opportunity to choose the love Jesus offered.
13:55 to start and I suggest 1.5 speed. You're welcome.
It takes years for some Christians to grow into obedience.
Thanks for bringing up this truth, however, It seems that your critique of John M was unnecessary. John has more experience as a Pastor than both of you together. Experience over faith. I respect both of you but the critique came across like my children critiquing me as a father. “Dad, you should have done this and that as a father…”. A different approach would have been to invite John M onto you podcast and ask him why he chose his arguments compared to your understanding. There’s still time for this to happen. I would think John M would be happy to do this so there is no misunderstandings.
I suspect that you are being too easy on MacArthur. The earlier quotes from his book are very disturbing. I suspect that it was revised in order to quell the controversy that it raised, not just as a "clarification".
Agreed. It is a false gospel to incorporate, bolster simple faith in Christ. Luther struggled with this for many years.
conradaxe : I totally agree with you. Given all the harm that this "gospel of Lordship" causes in the hearts and lives of many dear brothers, I think we should shed light on the dark shadows of this twisted gospel. Yes, there have probably been "revisions" of the JMA book, following the multiple reactions provoked. I don't want to be mean, but "business is business".... May the Lord fill us with all His grace and give us all His wisdom and discernment. Be abundantly blessed.
Hi, I came across your website and UA-cam videos recently somehow. I watched your "A Critique of Lordship Salvation" with interest because I was one of those who struggled with this issue in the late 90s. I had a number of email exchanges with the people from White Horse Inn (basically the authors of the Horton edited "Christ The Lord" book) because they were advocating a viewpoint which is similar to yours. So I agree with what you guys said and also what that book advocated.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with Walter Chantry's book "Today's Gospel"? That advocated an interpretation of the Rich Young Ruler passage similar to that of John MacArthur. That was what made me grapple with the Lordship Salvation controversy - and come out on the side of Horton and gang.
I also looked a bit into the Marrow Of Modern Divinity because all this is somehow related.
I have a question for you guys. Are you familiar with Sinclair Ferguson's "The Whole Christ: Legalism, Antinomianism, and Gospel Assurance―Why the Marrow Controversy Still Matters". I haven't read it, but I am wondering how Ferguson would treat this subject.
To me, this is very intriguing because The Marrow controversy is very related to the Lordship Salvation debate. And in this book, Ferguson actually dedicates it to Walter Chantry. And Ferguson's book also has Michael Horton's endorsement. So I'm wondering what exactly is written in Ferguson's book that he dedicates it to Chantry (who holds to the pro-Lordship Salvation view, unless he has changed his view recently) and yet Michael Horton endorses the book also.
So what view would the book advocate? I'm just wondering if you guys could shed some light. Thanks :)
"The Whole Christ" is an excellent book. Highly, highly recommended.
“If anyone wants to be my disciple they MUST deny themselves, take up their cross and follow me. “
Matthew 16:24
John W Robbins says that the men in Matthew 7 were "confessing Jesus as Lord, but not confessing Him as Savior." MacArthur has it exactly backwards when he says that they were "confessing Jesus as Savior." They never said ANYTHING about a Savior! Rather, they trusted in their good works and didn't need a Savior.
Where is this quote found?
Calvin writes this: “For if they begin,” they being Christians, “to judge their salvation by good works, nothing will be more uncertain or more feeble. From this it comes about that the believer’s conscience feels more fear and consternation than assurance. If righteousness is supported by works in God’s sight, it must entirely collapse and it is confined.”
John Mac preached the other (false) gospel, that's what i understood atleast from what i heard from you guys about his position
I used to listen to John MacArthur every morning on the way to work. I found his messages especially regarding salvation to be inconsistent, confusing, and sometimes sounding outright contradictory. I know he is a Lordship salvation pastor, but at times it was difficult to tell exactly what he believed. This video discussion about JM's teaching tells me that my impression about his confusing messages was probably correct.
John MacArthur is right. True, genuine faith repents and obeys. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15) Faith produces obedience. We still possess the flesh and must mortify it daily, but "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)
Are you saying that you are justified by your own works then? The second you add anything that you must do to the gospel like obedience you pervert the gospel. The moment your justification depends on what you do instead of what Christ has done for you, you become a Pharisee. You don't want to do that friend. Commands in the New Testament are for our sanctification not our justification. Commandments like, Be perfect, only show us our sin nature, because nobody can be perfect, and this drives us to Christ for refuge. Be very careful with John McArthur. He's not what you think. He's a heretic preaching a false Gospel, and he must twist the Scriptures to make Lordship Salvation work and to mischaracterize and marginalize us who believe the Gospel
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Romans 4:5 ESV
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9 ESV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 3:28 ESV
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 ESV
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-
Philippians 3:9 ESV
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 2:16 ESV
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:24 ESV
I would push back on john 3:36.
By saying in the context that jesus is equating believing in him as obeying.
Therefore those who do not believe do not have ETERNAL life.
ua-cam.com/video/nCna6v28IpI/v-deo.html
You guys are becoming one of my favorite UA-camrs. Thank you. The whole law gospel distinction and the christ centered focus you have is helpful. However, it seems so similar to Lutheranism that I wonder if I should become a Lutheran. Another issue with Jmac besides his law gospel collapsing is his apparent nestorianism.
Why would you think Paul Washer was talking to Christians? By the way you both are such a blessing to me and our church
The rich man was pursuing self-righteousness. He didn't see that he was covetous and was hardly keeping the commandments. Paul finally tells us that the law was a tutor to being us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Nail on the head Mary lamb, amen sister.
Those who don't want Jesus to be their Lord have Satan as their lord and are on the way to hell.
The rich man made money his lord and couldn't get saved.
WHO/WHAT is Your Lord ?
Works are evidence of a living faith. No works and faith is dead. Paul says that we are dead and Jesus has become our LIFE. If He is our life, then to say that fruit isn't necessary is saying Jesus does not work in us and produce fruit in our lives. When we have a living faith, Jesus fulfills righteousness in us. If there is no fruit, one has to ask whether Jesus is actually doing anything in us. They say that salvation is a gift, and grace is a gift, but fail to see the righteousness is also a gift that accompanies them. Not our righteousness, but His. It is not a shift in making the Christian the focus rather than Christ. It is Christ in us that works to will and do according to His good pleasure. If we have no will to do according to His pleasure, is He working in us? To be sure, the law of works is NOT to be our focus. Jesus has FINISHED the work, and by RESTING and ABIDING in HIM, we WILL bear fruit. If a person believes they are not doing enough for God or feel condemned are not resting in faith. EVERYONE who rests in Christ will bear fruit. And so, Jesus says, Come to Me...I will give you rest.
Works are required in a Christian's life, but they aren't produced by OUR work. They are a fruit of our REST. A branch produces fruit and does absolutely no work. It just sits in the vine, taking in the nourishing sap, and the water and the air and the sunshine. Jesus Himself, said, It is not I who do the works. The Father does the works. In the same way, it is not us who do the works. Christ does the works. That is the meaning of the Sabbath. He works in us while we rest in Him. The fact that anyone has a DESIRE to please God shows that Christ has ALREADY begun to work in us. A person who is not bearing fruit should not be told that they need to do more. They should to be told that they need to REST more...in the grace and mercy and goodness and love of God lavished on us by the Spirit.
Thanks for this one, I have been listening to John MacArthur recently and find him a good teacher however his dispensational views do feel a bit odd at times. To that end I've been wondering if you guys recommend any study bibles? MacArthur's one is quite popular but since he's not fully reformed go for the Reformation study bible from RC Sproul?
Yes reformation bible is great!
Try Kim Riddlebarger’s Amilliamisn…great explanation why pemil and amil is dung
@ShetheOvercomer That depends on who is speaking.
JOHN MACARTHUR HAS A FALSE GOSPEL OF LORDSHIP SALVATION, ITS WORKS BASED SALVATION
@@antonioboffa5998 Wrong. Works are the result of a saving faith. That is what he reaches.
Your sanctification can be an assurance of your justification, because sanctification is a work of God. There is nothing wrong with that. If God delivered you from alcoholism, and you go on believing and depending upon Christ, then it would in no way be unreasonable to be assured that you are in the faith when you do as Paul commands and "examine yourself to see if you are in the faith".
I'll Dive into Jesus' Word, that's perfection. We need to spend more time in His Word and less time, if at all, in men's fallible word. This is why there are so many divisions, encouraging men to follow men..
Just want to clarify a common misconception I heard perpetuated in this video. No one who calls on Jesus to save them is thinking 5 seconds later that their act of calling on Jesus is actually the thing saving them rather than Jesus. And I’ve never heard anyone other than a Calvinist suggest such a thing.
True trust will ultimately result in obedience, which is the essence and evidence of true faith. Doesn’t mean that we rely on our obedience to save us, are evidences of true salvation. I’ve read this book years ago and see nothing unbiblical about it at all. I’d have to disagree with your guys critique.
Jesus wasn't trying to have the young ruler prove himself. Jesus was saying, "You want to be justified by law? Be perfect." Because absolute perfection is the law's standard.
Of course, the purpose is to humble him so that he admits he is not capable. First Purpose of the Law.
My thoughts on the Rich Young Ruler was that Jesus used the Law to test him. His claim was he kept all of the Law. That's impossible. That would be an act of self righteousness and idolatry. The Law is our school master to show us we are law breakers. We have to be honest that the law exposes our need for a savior. The third use of the Law reflects our continuing need to self reflection or examination and awareness of sin that comes into our lives in Christ and thank God for His Grace abounding.
Great critique (if somewhat long-winded). At the 24 min mark, you probably don’t mean the gospel takes us from “life to death” but the other way around. See how carefully I’m listening?
As a recent former Roman Catholic the blessed assurance of the gospel is sweet to me. I don't understand all the ramifications yet but I'm learning. Are you familiar with the ministry of Stephen Gregg? Do you think he tends to be more law than gospel? I know he is not reformed but he has good teachings.
Not familiar with his teaching, link?
@@THEOCAST the narrow path
Hi Mary I’m a former Roman Catholic also! God bless you. I would just as a believer, who has sat at the feet of many ministries and teachers and read many books about the Bible, issue a word of warning. Be sure to get other opinions on topics like this. This discussion is more complicated than what is being described here. Many proponents of “lordship salvation” or what I would take to mean a desire to bring into submission to Christ in all areas of my life as a sign of true conversion, not as a means of salvation, they would say this is a misrepresentation. I know of people who take Theocast’s teachings to mean it is okay to go out and drink maybe a little too much or watch whatever worldly thing I want, not actively pursue reading my Bible , and I’m still saved. I’m not blaming Theocast for this person’s behaviour. But there has to be a balance and a taking into account the whole council of God. Basically proponents of “lordship salvation” would say in this case that being a Christian is a high and sacrificial calling that would demand I turn from sin and worldliness even if I like those things in my flesh, not as a means of justification, but because I love and revere God and want to live for Him although I am weak and sinful. If we are nor sowing into the Spirit (reading His Word, actively turning from sin, etc) then we can be assured we’re sowing into the flesh. I wonder what you think of this?
@@Scary_Sary Thank you for your thoughtful response. I understand what you’re saying and it is true that there has to be a balance here. For me my love for Christ and his word motivates me or rather I would say the Holy Spirit motivates me to live a godly life. I’ve been a Christian for over 40 years and Still have a lot to learn. May God bless you and your walk with him
From another former catholic... Try The Grace Message by James Farley Ministries. These guys you just listened to are just as dangerous as MacArthur.
Thank you so much for this video and the free resource. Such a blessing!!!
Paul Washer's clear intent in preaching his hard message, was not to bring terror on tender hearted christians, but to convict false converts and unbelievers who profess Christ. It was not a misuse of the law, it was correct use of the law in mixed company. There is of course the danger of doing exactly what you said, but it is good for the believer to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.
I always thought in the vein of Romans 10:9 that lordship salvation meant that you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. Is that not what they mean? "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
Calvinism and Calvin - 😂
Interesting what the Archbishop of Reggio had to say about the reformers.
"The Reformers had appealed to the inspired Scriptures as the sole rule of faith and practice. Trent answered the claim by asserting the presence of continual inspiration residing in the Catholic Church, and making tradition the outgrowth of this continual, churchly inspiration. It appealed to the long-established change of the Sabbath into Sunday as standing proof of the inspired authority of the church, declaring that the change had not been made by the command of Christ but on the authority of the Catholic Church, which change Protestants accept. Ever since Trent the change of Sabbath into Sunday has been pointed to by Roman Catholics as the mark, or sign, of the church’s power to be able to change even the fourth commandment of the Decalogue."
so i can be saved while i served money as my lord , that great, thank you preachers
All things are permissible for me but not beneficial least I be brought under its power. Why do you want to serve money.
@@murraylloyd6011so you’re saying yes?
@@alreyindustries So you,re saying...? Need to address that to Paul. Can ask me about my quote; "why do you want to serve money" if you like.
@@murraylloyd6011 well I say “you’re saying” because you seemed to answer in the affirmative to the original post.
Now you quoted Paul in order to show your affirmation, but Paul is not answering yes to the first posts question. Paul is talking about something else. You are taking Paul out of context to imply Paul is answering yes to the first question.
My question was to clarify that you think the answer to the original question is, “yes” by your quote and follow up question.
So, you do answer it in the affirmative and you think Paul’s quote there is your evidence. Got it.
I may be wrong but I think the original post had Jesus’s words in mind when He says no one can serve two masters. No one can serve God and mammon- God and money.
Paul in 1 Corinthians 6 is not saying everything in the whole wide world is lawful and ok and I can still be a Christian if that is what you’re inferring. He is saying food and things for the body are good and we can use them, but they are not to rule over us and I think by implication he means in place of Christ. Christ rules over us. Christ is our Lord. Christ purchased us and we belong to Him so we are not to use our bodies or things associated with our bodies in anyway we please.
Paul is not referring to salvation but to how Christians use their liberty in Christ.
Salvation or justification cannot come about in a person’s life if they do not repent and believe in Jesus. You can’t not repent of your idolatry and lusts for things of this world and at the same time put your faith in Christ for your salvation. What are you believing about Christ? That He is setting you free from the punishment of your sin but He is no way calling you to lay down your allegiance and love of that sin? That doesn’t sound right to me.
Just in time! Thx guys.
Welcome!!! We hope it is helpful
Maybe I am a poor disciple but having attended John MacArthur's church for almost 20 years I never heard or experienced the 'categorical confusion' you refer to or the circular 'you have faith if you do enough' conundrum.
Go look up MacArthur Lordship salvation sermons. It is implied strongly.
@@ClipZ_Gaming_1 No thanks
What we need to know about ourselves from God's Word and our only hope of being justified before a Holy and righteous God: [WHY WE HAVE NO HOPE IN OURSELVES: Mk. 7:20-23 And he (Jesus) said, That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things (sins) come from within, and defile the man.] [WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR: Rom. 3:10-28 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things so ever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his (God's) sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Joh. 3:16 For God so loved the world (us), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh. 14:6 Jesus said to him (us), I am the way (salvation), the truth (assurance), and the life (eternal): no man comes to (God) the Father, but by me (God the Son). Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:]
Lordship Salvation does not teach that you need to do works to be saved. Lordship Salvation teaches evidence of salvation, evidence of being a new creation, the outflow of the indwelling of the holy spirit. You don't need to do anything, but if you don't want to do anything for God, you should ask yourself why that is. Jesus IS Lord, and if you believe, you are being discipled by him, and you will be sanctified into greater and greater obedience to Jesus. Never perfect, but a life characterizes by a living, growing relationship with our savior, with God. Greater faith, means greater works. God wants you to grow in faith and demonstrate Christ to all. It doesn't save you, but if you have no fruit, then what exactly are you? You might not be saved. It has nothing to do with what you have done to achieve salvation.
A lot of these discussions/questions should pass some sniff test. For example, the thief on the cross was promised that he would be with Christ in paradise. Whatever you believe regarding salvation needs to pass the test of the thief. Would it apply to him or does it need to be twisted to apply (for example, Jesus was God so He could admit whoever He wanted). Another test to use would be the believer who had the gospel presented, believed it, confessed Christ as Lord (notice I did not say accepted Him into their heart blah blah blah) but never saw a bible, never had access to one, never heard of the 10 commandments, etc.
Question: is this person born again per scripture and is there anything else they have to do to be born again?
If your demands for salvation condemn either the thief or the person described in the 2nd example, we need to talk
Amen 🙏🏼. It is about sizing God and us up and use our reason to assess if God is worth our while, or not. It is simply not Biblical.
The book Sit Walk Stand by Watchman Nee was helpful for me. Paul instructed in truths we needed to know ie position therefore walk in this truth and put your armor on and when the enemy comes Stand.
UA-camrs really struggle with this. It’s not hard. Is Jesus lord? Yes and if you have been drawn to him and given your life up then your saved. If we are doing the faith to get grace then it’s not grace by definition. We are totally lost and depraved. Good works are a get to not a got to. Your arguing from the wrong side of Christianity. You should ask why we get to do good works. See we all miss it all the time. It’s get to serve him. We get to have faith in him. We get to go worship him. He is either lord or not. We all know and are without excuse. Doesn’t matter if you look like a Christian did a miracle take place in your life. Is every day all about him? That’s it. It’s deeper not different.
Its the truth, simply. The rich young ruler and Christ isn't an issue so much of how one is saved, but of the nature of salvation. The heart of a man that is saved is one who treasures Christ above all. So that like the one who finds a treasure in a filed, he buys the field no matter the cost so that he can legitimately own the treasure. He gives away all to have that prize and does so rightly. Righteousness is doing the right thing, in the right way for the right reasons. Its not so much a works salvation thing as it is a faith thing. True saving faith as James expounds, is vindicated by its deeds.
31:16
What about this passage?
If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple
So, I'm at 34:57 and you're discussing the rich young ruler. When Jesus said, sell everything you have, give it to the poor and follow me. By saying, follow Me, I agree that He wasn't offering eternal life, but, wasn't He offering the way to eternal life? Follow Me/My teaching?
You were so very careful in not misrepresenting MacArthur. Sadly, non-reformed folk like Hodges do not get to enjoy the same treatment.
Hey do you guys have a citation for that quote by John Calvin on “salvation by good works”?
I was looking for that as well. Let me know if you find it!!plz
Back in 1969 Charles Ryrie of Dallas Theological Seminary wrote a book called Balancing the Christian Life which became very popular and was used by many in training teachers and discipleship classes. In this books Ryrie says Lordship salvatiion is a false gospel. This triggered another debate long before MacArthur got on board 1989 with his book. Many others had opposed Ryrie and Dallas Seminary and all their heretical dispensationalism. The simple issue is one must believe in Jesus Christ. To believe in Him one must know who He is. The gospel tells us He is Lord, the call is repent and be baptized often, Jesus said to believe you must keep the commands and follow Him or you are not believeing. There is no salvation in a false Jesus. You cannot split Him apart and bellieve in part of Him. Many will say Lord Lord and he will say I never knew you. Also many believed on His name but He did not commit Himself to them. Because He knew their belief was not a saving faith that embraces His Lordship over their lives, same with the Rich young ruler. Believing he is Lord is not saying we are saved by works. Ridiculous. It is believing the whole Christ. There is no robbing a believer of anything to believe He is Lord of their life. There is no gospel without law as Christ showed. The ruler manifested He did not have saving faith by not being willing to keep the law oe sell all. You must see your need of a savior cefore you would want one. The law must be presented to people at the same time or before the gospel. It is all part of the presentation to people and that they must repent of all known sin prefering Christ above all other idols. No one comes to Christ while holding on to known sin and idols. There is no point to offer the gospel to one who refuses to see his sin and is not willing to repent. And there is nothing before regeneration because you cant see it. We only see the outworking of grace, the fruit of faith. So obedience, repentance are all the result of faith working out, and how this shows in time and a person's life is different. But the call is to forsake all others and self, this is not a 2nd srep or blessing of life. There was only one covenant of grace, with 2 administrations, one body, one temple, one My People, one covenant people. The Marrow does not deny Lordship salvation or repentance unto life, or the law in the presentation or that one must abandon sin in coming to Christ as you do. I would suggest you have an antinomian gospel. Study covenant theology.
Let me save you 50 minutes and sum the video up. We want a softer version of lordship that still leaves us with no assurance.
The phrase "Lordship salvation" makes no sense to me. Is it Jesus' Lordship salvation? Or is this some other type of Lord and his Lordship salvation?
If "Lordship salvation" IS NOT meant to mean the salvation taught by Jesus. then calling it "Lordship salvation" is a strawman argument (which is making a false argument against something that doesn't exsist, but are claiming that it does).
Also if "Lordship salvation" IS NOT meant to mean the salvation taught by Jesus, then it is an insult to Jesus to call it such. Everyone knows it is Jesus who is Lord who taught salvation.
But on the other hand; if "Lordship salvation" DOES mean the salvation taught by Jesus. Then the argument is not merely against a strawman but against Jesus himself.
The whole thing makes no sense.
@@KeepingWatch95 Lordship salvation is a term used to describe a set of beliefs about what is necessary for salvation. Some would say it is the gospel taught by the Bible and some would say it is not. That is the crux of the argument. The term lordship salvation is seen as a pejorative by people on both sides so some in the reformed camp will try to distance themselves from it. The men in this video are trying to denounce what they see as extreme versions of that theology. At the same time they still hold to the underlying tenets of lordship salvation. They seem to want to hold the theology while not wanting the logical conclusions of it. I hope this helps clarify.
@@johnegleston7448 So what Jesus taught was wrong? (Lordship?) I don't care what these people teach... is what Jesus taught wrong?
@@KeepingWatch95 What Jesus taught was not wrong. I’m not sure what in my comment would lead you to believe I think that. Jesus did not teach the reformed/lordship doctrine of salvation either.
@@johnegleston7448 You commented: _"Lordship salvation is a term used to describe a set of beliefs about what is necessary for salvation."_
Isn't this a reference to Jesus' teachings?
Didn't Jesus teach that certain things are "necessary for salvation" ?
That is: necessary to recieve foregiveness & necessary for enternal life (which I believe mean salvation)
Pastor John MacArthur, Pastor Steven Lawson along with Charles Lawson are probably the best Preachers of the Word of God today, especially Pastor John MacArthur. We are saved by His grace though our faith in Jesus Christ alone we have Salvation for it is not of our works lest any man should boast. Jesus said I will send you a comforter the Holy Spirit which will show you and guide you in all truth.
Beware my friend, John McArthur is a heretic and you are being decieved by him as I was for many years. He's not what you think. Lordship Salvation is not the Gospel, it is filthy garbage dressed up in a fine suit and masquerading as Truth.
I don’t know if I agree with you completely
Maybe I can help. What’s confusing you?
"Faith is inseparable from obedience." "You can't separate obedience from faith." Is MacArthur talking about the definition of the word "faith" or what characterizes the person who has faith in Christ. Can MacArthur be interpreted to mean that obedience is what characterizes a person who has faith in Christ?
Yes I agree
That's exactly what MacArthur says (and what the Bible teaches). What characterizes true faith is sorrow for, and repentance from, sin. For some strange reason, the no-lordship-salvation crowd doesn't want to accept that, or they'll twist it into some kind of a works-based-salvation narrative (which it isn't).
Luke 6:46 Jesus said "Why do you call me Lord and do not obey my commandments?"
John 14:15 "If you love me you will keep my commandments."
Amen. Second Corinthians 9:13. Thanks be to God for His UNSPEAKABLE GIFT, ETERNAL LIFE.
Calvinism, or Lordship salvation is a box wrapped with pretty paper, and a nice ribbon, but there is no GIFT inside. The box is empty. Romans 6:23 The gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE. John 10:28-29. John 6:47. Acts 16:31. We receive the free gift by faith in the gospel. First Corinthians 15:1-4. Romans 1:16. Galatians 1:6-9.
You realise I could critique Grace Church salvation message. Purely from Scripture.
It would be found seriously lacking!
I have no idea what "lordship salvation" is.
I have read your salvation message and it is completely wrong.
Jesus was speaking to the Jews when he is talking about the law. The law shows you what sin is but doesn't save you. It needed to be this way because he knew the jews would deny him and this would allow the gentiles to come into the fold.. those who were last became first, hallelujah.
stephanie : Amen and Amen !
John 6:28-29. To know The Works of God.
John 6:40. To know The will of God.
Whenever I see something questioning "Lordship Salvation" the first thing I think is something like: "Do they mean that you should follow the Devil?" or "So who is their Lord then? The Devil?"
5:58 Doesn't do a good job of defining "Lordship Salvation" as opposed to what they are teaching. In other words, they are saying: Lordship Salvation says that you can't make Jesus your savior without also making him Lord." But I think Lordship Salvation says, "Jesus is your Savior, and you can't be Saved until you make Him Lord of your life, not in just words or works, but in truth and that we are saved by Grace." So they seem to be redefining it.
They redefine gospel to mean - "what has been done by Christ for sinners" a declaration of the freedom from the punishment of sin and the gaining of righteousness done by the works of God through Christ, for our benefit.
But, in reality, this is a very boring, drawn out argument for sola fide "faith alone". James destroys the sola fide argument:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
It's hard for me to take the 5 sola's seriously: sola scriptura (Scripture alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), and soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone). It's almost like taking the individual ingredients of a cake and saying that the cake is by each ingredient alone.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God. He is also the Son of God, come in the flesh, so Jesus is both man and God. It is by his grace (gift of God) that we are saved through faith for the glory of God the Father. So here we have all 5 combined. You can't have one without the other.
Jesus Christ died for ALL.
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He is our Lord and our Savior, the only Way to God, which is our Salvation. People, it's not all about going to Heaven, or going to Hell, it's all about going to God. Our Salvation is by God alone, but it is for us all.
In the intro they explain how it's another gospel then 13 minutes in claim he's a brother and that it's not another gospel without reason. If you can't call a spade a spade why should anyone trust you?
Salvation is of God!
God will give all the sheep to Christ.(John 6:37).
God reveals Christ in your heart, and you believe him. See 2Cor.4:6 ,Gal.1:16.
Just as Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. See Rom.4:3
God takes care of ALL
the details!
What does Christ mean?
The Anointed One. Anointed as what? Not just prophet. Not just a priest, but also as the king. The Son of David.
Built into the Gospel is the understanding that faith in Christ is faith in a person. That He both saves from sin and is master or King over His disciples. He is the King of spiritual Israel.
This whole non lordship thing is redefining the gospel, faith, and Jesus Christ my opinion.
Saddened to hear that this podcast supports Calvinist/Catholic works salvation. Hodges supports the biblical view of Salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8-9). Had to cut the video off at that point, due to false theology presented. We look to CHRIST, not to our works for assurance.
Are you teaching us to follow Jesus' teachings/Scripture or Calvin's teachings?? Some water, some plant, but God gives the increase. 1Cor 3:6-7. Don't put your trust in men's 'interpretations' they will always fail...we know in part and prophecy in part. Trust in the Holy Spirit to do His good work in you and through you.
jeangreen : Exactly. The Lord saves us and keeps us, even if we have not understood everything about the "doctrine". Every man is a sinner and fallible. Let us not trust in man but in God alone who, He, is never wrong. Be blessed.
Professor Hodges is not being represented fairly!
I love John Max but I don’t consider him to be reformed. To me dispensationalism is another gospel entire.
You guys forgot about the Geneva Bible which predates the KJV.
Wouldn’t a lot of reformers agree with the statement “no King but Christ”? Is not God’s call to repent and believe a call also to obey? Would you say that to repent or to believe is a work?
Also to put forward a question, what would you say to a brother or to a listener who shows no evidence of salvation, who perhaps shows little interest in spiritual things and more interest in worldly things, is drifting into liberalism and embracing deconstructionism, egalitarianism and Marxism, shows no fruit in personality of salvation?
@@Scary_Sary do you follow everyone around to check on his fruits? Are you saying Christians don’t sin? How much fruit is enough evidence for you? See where lordship salvation is leading?
@@ronsmith3523 Hello brother. This can be a very emotive issue. Before answering can I ask, would you agree with or disagree with church discipline?
@@ronsmith3523 You need to read Romans 7:14-2 and 1 John and then repent of your presumptive speech which has borne false witness against a sister. In Romans 7 Paul writes, “I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” By this paul is showing that we often do not do as we desire because of our human weakness, but he does still desire to be conformed to Christ by bringing his body into submission. Our brother John writes, “Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” And “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” Our brother is showing here that doing we should delight in doing good because God is good. Both of these sections show that the believer delights in the law of the Lord and is grieved by sinning against the thrice holy God. The commands should not burden us but doing wrong before God should make us cry out the our Father as the prodigal did to his father saying, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.” And as John says, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Theocast cannot reconcile Grace and Works and so obliterates the blessed truth, and comfort in all afflictions, that the Lord has completely changed us and will continue to do so. I thank God that Jesus did not simply die to pay for my sins but that He rose again and went to the right hand of the Father to send the Spirit in order that He might dwell in us. That same Spirit whom he sent has utterly changed me from a miserable monster deserving death into one of His holy children. I will fall short many times before I see Him in glory but I will never become nihilistic about following Him because he went all the way for me, how can I possibly only go half way for this blessed savior of mine! Resist this harmful doctrine and believe that the Lord came to make us new that we may all say, as our beloved brother Paul, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” The Lord be with the concerned sister in Christ and may the Lord give you wisdom when you ask!