@16:30 - I don't think the PC himself is at all a problem. It seems more like the Nurgle Worship regen is really good to help with staying in fights longer and keep units out on the map/regen them faster in base to help with map control, and CPM give a very strong melee unit in T2 with decent ranged damage from the plasma pistols (possibly the strongest non-vehicle melee until T3?).
I think most people simply don't have the micro or positioning knowledge to use nurgle worship effectively. Frankly, I never see anyone using nurgle worship in 1v1 like I have here. In fact numerous people commented how novel it was to see because when I cast PC players in 1v1 we just don't see it. It's hard to pull off, so I don't really think that's a problem. That seems to be a me thing rather than a balance thing. CPM are awesome. Are they OP? I dunno, because bloodletters are the nearest comparison and people love them, understandably so. CPM aren't blatantly better than BLs, it's a toss-up.
Great scrap Boyz!!! Thanks for the 3pete casts STD... Did you hear that the PC is OP! I still agree with Indrid his melee attack needs a buff at least i think it is 6, it should be 7. as always... Comments for the Comment Throne!!!
Okay, here's a mathematical question about requisition. Let's say you're in the fight using Sternguard. Your base is 20 sec away, your have army of 60 pop doing something else + Sternguard. You fight over a req point (assume immediately max req income from that point). 2 scenarios, goal is to pick the one that gives you more req. Scenario 1. You retreat early with 4 models (0 second), run back with full models (0-20 sec), heal back to 90% (20-35 sec), run back (35-55 sec), cap the point (55-65 sec). Scenario 2. You fight and lose 2 models (0 - 5 sec), cap the point (5-15 sec), run back with 2 models (15-35 sec), reinforce and heal back to 90% (faster due to purchase of healed models, 35-45 sec), run back (45-65 sec). Can somebody figure out which one is better when it comes to req? I can figure out few things: SG model is 83 req x2. Scenario 1 is 166 req ahead. Req point income is 0.5 per sec, 50 sec x 0.5 = 25 req in favour of Scenario 2. Scenario 1 is still 141 req ahead. There is 40 sec where you have 2 less SG models (lower upkeep). How much is this?
You should never try cap natural requistion when you take losses and get forced off anyway because they will just decap you. You can risk some models to decap their natural requisition to deny maturity benefits which may be 100+ req in total over the next few minutes but not expensive sternguard or you lvl up their troops too much. Game isn't won by saving pennies and giving your opponent momentum in levels, red and map control will cost you more.
I mean all of this is pretty ridiculous. The game is very complex because it isn't just about req or an isolated point on the map. When the sterns cap that req point they don't just freeze and stay there. Like Olev says they then go on to contribute pressure on the foe. Bleed more of their shit. Be in the right time to secure wipes and win fights. Put vp or bash pressure on. So then getting back out and putting in work can be helpful, in general though you would not want to throw away unnecessary sternguard models. Way too expensive. Upkeep costs 2.55req per pop on average stern's I assume are 5 pop so would save you 12.75 per minute per model absent.
I feel if I get the chance to do some more POV gameplay I should probably showcase some other MUs. That said, I definitely don't feel like I have "mastered" PC and it's myriad MUs yet though. In particular I haven't played the PC vs OM and SM MU enough.
I've really enjoyed the PC POV series. I've never really focused on PC in my own play, but since watching these I've enjoyed playing him more often with some success. Do you only get bile skewer of no noise Marines, and an opportunity to bash arrises?
"Do you only get bile skewer of no noise Marines, and an opportunity to bash arrises?" Yes. I think the bile spewer is broadly underpowered. It bashes so slow and is so short range. What makes it worse if you are losing that DoT bolter that makes enemies have to retreat earlier or get wiped and that is a huge opportunity cost.
Trying to learn the game, you went Raptors to counter Shuriken and thenJuggernaut at tier 2 because the early hadn’t gone so well and you couldn’t go straight to Dreadnought? Thanks in advance!
To be honest I wouldn't say the early game went bad as such. I lost the tic but honestly a default tic is a very minor loss overall. They don't scale much anyway so levelling them up through the game is not as important as it is for other squads. And then it's only 200 req. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad. But my point is that that isn't what influenced my BC choice. If you check at 07:13 you can see my eco matches up pretty perfectly with the cost of a BC - I'm miles off being able to afford a dreadnought though in terms of power. I also at this moment had put the eldar into mass route AND I was confident that I was ahead in tech thanks to him getting two t1.5 units and the very expensive merciless witchblade gear (35 power). Therefore if I could get a bloodcrusher out nice and fast and do a full timing push onto the gen farm I can consolidate my lead quite a lot and so I did. Only got 2 gens and lost my AC tics (which was a fail on my end) but I did inflict a tremendous amount of bleed on the enemy which probably cost him more than my AC tic loss. From here my composition was simple. CPM + PM literally counters everything he can throw at me with the utility AV on raptor AC and potential PC fist if necessary.
Torpid, few questions as a guy with a lesser skill: 1. You don't doomblast when tics go 1v1 against banshees. Why? 2. Most pros keep units in fight until the very last moment. Retreating 5 sec earlier avoids a lot of bleed. Is it worth it? 3. You never change hotkeys for units. Aren't you making more micro errors because of that? For example, I keep my tacs under keys 2 and 3, scouts under 5, etc. If I don't have the unit, it's just empty hotkey. 4. Why don't you use auto reinforce? Thanks!
I'm no elite mod god, but I can help on some of these. 1) Doomblasting is mainly for the suppressive effect. The damage output lost from the single tic model makes them less effective against banshees. 2) I can't really give too much info, but STD is as experienced as it comes with elite. He's probably leaving units in as long as possible to a) delay and/or b) setup something else (grenades, disruption, suppression). Losing models is bad, but losing map control is also bad. 3) Don't know this one 4) auto-reinforce CAN be useful, but can also be a detriment. If you have the opportunity to tech up, but it's delayed because you're reinforcing multiple tics and tags, then youre losing out on any tech potential. Getting tech is far more important than replacing base squad models, especially without a champion or other squad leader unit
@@kaboose64 Cheers. 1. It does both suppression and damage. Suppression is useful even when in direct melee, e.g. suppressed banshee has to slowly walk to a next herectic model before doing choppy choppy. 2. Extra models lost cost easily 100+ req. Dunno if tiny bit of extra map control is worth it. 4. APM drain when disabling auto reinforce during larger purchases should be less than manually reinforcing, right?
1) Doomblasting makes you weaker in melee fights unless you can chain it with knockback to prevent the enemy from getting back into combat or are fighting 10+ models. 90% of the time you shouldn't doomblast if it is a melee duel. 2) You'd need to give me set examples. You want to leave it longer to push the foe psychologically. Sometimes attempt wipes. Or to push to win the engagement and thus gain map control/gen bashes. The game is very snowbally. 3) I change race and build often enough that I don't associate one number with a type of unit. Sometimes I will have havocs, sometimes raptors in that slot, sometimes nm. I like to keep in mind which hotkey is which type of unit and where there are multiple I try to send them to different areas of the map, if I can, and log in my head where on the map 1 is and 4 is. You'd run out of relevant hotkeys fast if you have scouts under 5 right? What do you do when you have 6 or 7 units? 4) I actually usually do play with auto-reinforce on most factions but chaos and nids I definitely don't - this is because they are extremely requisition intensive factions in T2 AND their early game units heretics/terma/hormagaunts are really bad at scaling. So not only are you dumping req into them to reinforce them fully but that's also giving you more models which leads to more upkeep. Heretics are shit combatants in T2. They just turn to worship duties+capping. So you shouldn't fully reinforce them. Even in T1 I usually prefer to have 1 tic squad for combat with full models and 1 tic squad with fewer models for capping.
@@SenpaiTorpidDOW Cheers. 1. Didn't realise that. I always assumed DB is well worth it because of suppression AND damage. I guess I won't DB that often now. 2. I play 3v3 and I always track 2 metrics: units lost and units killed. I generally get lowest units lost and most kills (playing as TM) even when facing SM or other low bleed races. My strategy is usually retreating earlier while preserving units. This leads to lost fights but wins matches. I posted an example using Sternguard. 3. Yeah, I usually have hero under 1, 'heavy hitters' under 2-4 (tacs, termis, tanks, etc.), scouts or other trash units (IST, GM, etc.) under 5, support under 6-8 (set up teams, WW, etc.) 4. I've noticed you usually have it switched off. But yeah, your approach makes sense. Thanks.
ya it doesn't feel like there's a pc problem in my eyes to, I mean most of your wins also took advantage of opponent misplays (not that I could have done any better). I mean please let's not make the plague bolter obsolete, he already has that stupid melee dps of a house fly
Well the debate related to the fact that the PC bolter literally just got buffed in this test build from the prior one. I think the end result was that it still got a buff, but a smaller one than is seen in these POV casts from the test build.
The worship dodge on the disruptor was pretty legit
Hehe, that was a good moment.
@16:30 - I don't think the PC himself is at all a problem. It seems more like the Nurgle Worship regen is really good to help with staying in fights longer and keep units out on the map/regen them faster in base to help with map control, and CPM give a very strong melee unit in T2 with decent ranged damage from the plasma pistols (possibly the strongest non-vehicle melee until T3?).
I think most people simply don't have the micro or positioning knowledge to use nurgle worship effectively. Frankly, I never see anyone using nurgle worship in 1v1 like I have here. In fact numerous people commented how novel it was to see because when I cast PC players in 1v1 we just don't see it. It's hard to pull off, so I don't really think that's a problem. That seems to be a me thing rather than a balance thing.
CPM are awesome. Are they OP? I dunno, because bloodletters are the nearest comparison and people love them, understandably so. CPM aren't blatantly better than BLs, it's a toss-up.
Great scrap Boyz!!! Thanks for the 3pete casts STD... Did you hear that the PC is OP! I still agree with Indrid his melee attack needs a buff at least i think it is 6, it should be 7. as always...
Comments for the Comment Throne!!!
Yeah funny that. I have a feeling whichever hero I play 20 games with prior balance leads against might end up OP =D
Thank you Torpid:)
Okay, here's a mathematical question about requisition. Let's say you're in the fight using Sternguard. Your base is 20 sec away, your have army of 60 pop doing something else + Sternguard. You fight over a req point (assume immediately max req income from that point). 2 scenarios, goal is to pick the one that gives you more req.
Scenario 1. You retreat early with 4 models (0 second), run back with full models (0-20 sec), heal back to 90% (20-35 sec), run back (35-55 sec), cap the point (55-65 sec).
Scenario 2. You fight and lose 2 models (0 - 5 sec), cap the point (5-15 sec), run back with 2 models (15-35 sec), reinforce and heal back to 90% (faster due to purchase of healed models, 35-45 sec), run back (45-65 sec).
Can somebody figure out which one is better when it comes to req? I can figure out few things:
SG model is 83 req x2. Scenario 1 is 166 req ahead.
Req point income is 0.5 per sec, 50 sec x 0.5 = 25 req in favour of Scenario 2. Scenario 1 is still 141 req ahead.
There is 40 sec where you have 2 less SG models (lower upkeep). How much is this?
No.
You should never try cap natural requistion when you take losses and get forced off anyway because they will just decap you. You can risk some models to decap their natural requisition to deny maturity benefits which may be 100+ req in total over the next few minutes but not expensive sternguard or you lvl up their troops too much. Game isn't won by saving pennies and giving your opponent momentum in levels, red and map control will cost you more.
I mean all of this is pretty ridiculous. The game is very complex because it isn't just about req or an isolated point on the map.
When the sterns cap that req point they don't just freeze and stay there. Like Olev says they then go on to contribute pressure on the foe. Bleed more of their shit. Be in the right time to secure wipes and win fights. Put vp or bash pressure on.
So then getting back out and putting in work can be helpful, in general though you would not want to throw away unnecessary sternguard models. Way too expensive.
Upkeep costs 2.55req per pop on average stern's I assume are 5 pop so would save you 12.75 per minute per model absent.
It feels like Ine was always fighting piecemeal versus most of Torpid's army. :/ Also that Nid build 😂
The power of macro there.
I hope to see some sorcerer shenanigans soon.
I feel if I get the chance to do some more POV gameplay I should probably showcase some other MUs. That said, I definitely don't feel like I have "mastered" PC and it's myriad MUs yet though. In particular I haven't played the PC vs OM and SM MU enough.
I witnessed that dodge.
I've really enjoyed the PC POV series. I've never really focused on PC in my own play, but since watching these I've enjoyed playing him more often with some success.
Do you only get bile skewer of no noise Marines, and an opportunity to bash arrises?
"Do you only get bile skewer of no noise Marines, and an opportunity to bash arrises?"
Yes. I think the bile spewer is broadly underpowered. It bashes so slow and is so short range.
What makes it worse if you are losing that DoT bolter that makes enemies have to retreat earlier or get wiped and that is a huge opportunity cost.
Trying to learn the game, you went Raptors to counter Shuriken and thenJuggernaut at tier 2 because the early hadn’t gone so well and you couldn’t go straight to Dreadnought? Thanks in advance!
To be honest I wouldn't say the early game went bad as such. I lost the tic but honestly a default tic is a very minor loss overall. They don't scale much anyway so levelling them up through the game is not as important as it is for other squads. And then it's only 200 req.
It wasn't good, it wasn't bad.
But my point is that that isn't what influenced my BC choice. If you check at 07:13 you can see my eco matches up pretty perfectly with the cost of a BC - I'm miles off being able to afford a dreadnought though in terms of power.
I also at this moment had put the eldar into mass route AND I was confident that I was ahead in tech thanks to him getting two t1.5 units and the very expensive merciless witchblade gear (35 power). Therefore if I could get a bloodcrusher out nice and fast and do a full timing push onto the gen farm I can consolidate my lead quite a lot and so I did. Only got 2 gens and lost my AC tics (which was a fail on my end) but I did inflict a tremendous amount of bleed on the enemy which probably cost him more than my AC tic loss. From here my composition was simple. CPM + PM literally counters everything he can throw at me with the utility AV on raptor AC and potential PC fist if necessary.
@@SenpaiTorpidDOW thanks Torpid, makes a lot of sense when you explain it like that!
Torpid, few questions as a guy with a lesser skill:
1. You don't doomblast when tics go 1v1 against banshees. Why?
2. Most pros keep units in fight until the very last moment. Retreating 5 sec earlier avoids a lot of bleed. Is it worth it?
3. You never change hotkeys for units. Aren't you making more micro errors because of that? For example, I keep my tacs under keys 2 and 3, scouts under 5, etc. If I don't have the unit, it's just empty hotkey.
4. Why don't you use auto reinforce?
Thanks!
I'm no elite mod god, but I can help on some of these.
1) Doomblasting is mainly for the suppressive effect. The damage output lost from the single tic model makes them less effective against banshees.
2) I can't really give too much info, but STD is as experienced as it comes with elite. He's probably leaving units in as long as possible to a) delay and/or b) setup something else (grenades, disruption, suppression). Losing models is bad, but losing map control is also bad.
3) Don't know this one
4) auto-reinforce CAN be useful, but can also be a detriment. If you have the opportunity to tech up, but it's delayed because you're reinforcing multiple tics and tags, then youre losing out on any tech potential. Getting tech is far more important than replacing base squad models, especially without a champion or other squad leader unit
@@kaboose64 Cheers.
1. It does both suppression and damage. Suppression is useful even when in direct melee, e.g. suppressed banshee has to slowly walk to a next herectic model before doing choppy choppy.
2. Extra models lost cost easily 100+ req. Dunno if tiny bit of extra map control is worth it.
4. APM drain when disabling auto reinforce during larger purchases should be less than manually reinforcing, right?
1) Doomblasting makes you weaker in melee fights unless you can chain it with knockback to prevent the enemy from getting back into combat or are fighting 10+ models. 90% of the time you shouldn't doomblast if it is a melee duel.
2) You'd need to give me set examples. You want to leave it longer to push the foe psychologically. Sometimes attempt wipes. Or to push to win the engagement and thus gain map control/gen bashes. The game is very snowbally.
3) I change race and build often enough that I don't associate one number with a type of unit. Sometimes I will have havocs, sometimes raptors in that slot, sometimes nm. I like to keep in mind which hotkey is which type of unit and where there are multiple I try to send them to different areas of the map, if I can, and log in my head where on the map 1 is and 4 is. You'd run out of relevant hotkeys fast if you have scouts under 5 right? What do you do when you have 6 or 7 units?
4) I actually usually do play with auto-reinforce on most factions but chaos and nids I definitely don't - this is because they are extremely requisition intensive factions in T2 AND their early game units heretics/terma/hormagaunts are really bad at scaling. So not only are you dumping req into them to reinforce them fully but that's also giving you more models which leads to more upkeep.
Heretics are shit combatants in T2. They just turn to worship duties+capping. So you shouldn't fully reinforce them. Even in T1 I usually prefer to have 1 tic squad for combat with full models and 1 tic squad with fewer models for capping.
2) Don't forget the reduced upkeep through that period too.
@@SenpaiTorpidDOW Cheers.
1. Didn't realise that. I always assumed DB is well worth it because of suppression AND damage. I guess I won't DB that often now.
2. I play 3v3 and I always track 2 metrics: units lost and units killed. I generally get lowest units lost and most kills (playing as TM) even when facing SM or other low bleed races. My strategy is usually retreating earlier while preserving units. This leads to lost fights but wins matches. I posted an example using Sternguard.
3. Yeah, I usually have hero under 1, 'heavy hitters' under 2-4 (tacs, termis, tanks, etc.), scouts or other trash units (IST, GM, etc.) under 5, support under 6-8 (set up teams, WW, etc.)
4. I've noticed you usually have it switched off. But yeah, your approach makes sense. Thanks.
ya it doesn't feel like there's a pc problem in my eyes to, I mean most of your wins also took advantage of opponent misplays (not that I could have done any better). I mean please let's not make the plague bolter obsolete, he already has that stupid melee dps of a house fly
Well the debate related to the fact that the PC bolter literally just got buffed in this test build from the prior one.
I think the end result was that it still got a buff, but a smaller one than is seen in these POV casts from the test build.
If anything I don't think it's the PC but Chosen seem kinda busted
they used to be x2 better with Adila
double bswb wtf?
Chosen of Nurgle is a cool title. I wish there was Slaanesh though. That would be the dream title.
pc is broken