Games Workshop Is KILLING Our Channels
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
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Blessed are the hobby channels who never found themselves on the Warhammer and Games Workshop treadmill. While i don't mind being on it, let's talk about why some of your other favourite channels and creators might.
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Thanks!!
The GW kicked my dog segments had me chuckling heartily
That was VERY good.
Hell yes
Same...same. :D
How could Mr James workshop do this
I'd like to see more of the "Adventures of Mr. Chumpchange"! :D
"If you want to make a living selling things you've made, you need to sell things that sell." - you basically summed up every modern era start-up guide in one statement. Bravo, sir. 👏
Aren't most startups nowadays not making things?
You’ve absolutely nailed this video man. Absolutely love it.
It’s why I do so little on Middle Earth - I would LOVE to do more but the videos just don’t get that much traction.
Mhmmmmm! Do it between sponsors and enjoy it while you can honey!
Dude.
The sincerity and humor in your videos is beyond compare.
Your outlook is spot on.
Looking forward to seeing your success continue.
Also..... when is a Gorkamorka campaign making an appearance on your channel?
When I can! Haha
I absolutely love your sense of humor and I admire your ability to clearly explain how you personally and professionally feel about this topic.
Please keep putting in the work.
Cheers.
"learn something actually universal"
This is the funny thing about why im even watching any of these channels. I don't play these games. Any of them.
I customize gijoes. I figure, i can use the same techniques you guys use on your 28mm stuff I can apply it to my hobby. My hobby has overall improved.
Im actually pretty turned off by games workshop centered content. One channel was really good about having great painting and basing techniques. Then they stopped making videos for a long time. Now they're back and it's all gw all the time. And i haven't seen a worthwhile helpful video i can learn anything from in months and have debated unsubscribing for a while. Fortunately that's just one. Their panel lining video is the tits and they only mentioned the best way to do it like as a side note.
I freaking hate the gothic buildings. I hate the same pattern ruined building (sloping up both sides, each floor getting smaller and smaller to the top). Boring.
Anyway. That's just me and im a drop in the bucket.
Your video where you show your dry brushing box is why i stuck around. Fucking genius idea. I just need to make one.
Yes! I also don’t play any GW games at all. In fact, I don’t game at all. Two of my family members play Dungeons and Dragons and I started crafting terrain as a seated hobby after developing a heart condition that forced me to pause all my other hobbies. From there I agreed to try painting their DnD minis.
I want to watch content that has general mini & terrain painting techniques, isn’t too wanky or elitist, and is hopefully engaging to listen to.
Great video to open the dialogue. I'm considering starting my own channel and have wondered a lot about this when noting my ideas down, seems like everything I come up with would have to be spun slightly to get the views rather than just being lain out plainly.
Hopefully as you and other great creators out there put out more non-GW stuff out in-between sponsors people will start to pick up on that and maybe habits will change. Maybe... Seems there are more than enough great products and systems out there for everyone to have their fill.
Also just wanted to say that I've only recently found your channel, I've gone back and watched all your videos and I love what you're doing for the hobby! Mad love and keep up the good work!
I have been in the Wargaming hobby for nearly 50 years, I have worked in the Wargames industry for 20 years,
What still makes me chuckle is that when you mention to a person that knows nothing about the hobby, they always say "oh you play warhammer".
I usually end it there as trying to explain to a person that I play mostly historical is a complete waste of time.
Wargaming is wargaming.
Wargaming is not warhammer.
Warhammer is a part of wargaming, not visa versa.
Great vid btw
Excellent, introspective and honest video. Your calm manner discussing this makes it easy to follow and agree with you.
It's as if many creators need the drama to help fuel their channels. We (as viewers) know exactly why thumbnails and titles are "clickbaity" but many creators fail to acknowledge that fact. The rage that fills their videos comes across as false because they need GW to help keep their content relevant. When 99% of their titles are negative towards GW it comes across as disingenuous when it's GW's products that help creators become successful in the first place.
There are a few creators that manage to find the correct balance. It all comes down to honesty.
Some creators need to realise that no GW = no chance to create a financially stable channel. Don't bite the hand that feeds.
Great video
Preach! Thank you for an equally calm and interesting comment!
I can tell you put in a lot of effort into your videos. They look great, your monologues are funny (at least to me), and your tips are helpful. I'm looking forward to your next video and many more to come!!
Fantastic video, as it always is with your content.
As a mini painter and wargamer who doesn't play anything GW, I find I have to get through the necessary GW tie-ins to get to the actual content the UA-camr is trying to make. I honestly think it is just part of playing the YT game.
I'll gladly watch a 'here's a GW themed board' etc to learn new skills and techniques over what I call a 'weekly video for my channel' where the creator clearly has no content but needs to put out a video, such as a 'here's my pile of shame' vid.
Have you seen the channel Ghost Town Living? The creator has some huge unexpected success and their channel almost crumpled trying to maintain the same hit rate and work the algorithms.
Keep up the exceptional work, it's always a pleasure to watch your videos!
Awesome. The interview bits were funny.
As someone who has just started watching miniature videos it’s funny hearing this. I could give two shits about Warhammer and I watch them because of the artistry. What’s even crazier is the miniature video producers have the most creatively styled and filmed videos I have ever seen. I will probably sub to this channel just because you genuinely made me laugh with your intro.
Haha thank you. And yes it’s a mitre saw. But it IS on a table!
GW steal about 50 to a 100 quid a month off me, just right out of my pocket, the thriving bastards.
As a new youtuber (newtuber?) this hits home real hard. I'd love to do videos about non GW games and products, but I know that they will tank, so I'm already feeling like I'm forced to do certain content when all I actually want to do is help people enjoy their hobby more and make it more accessible.
Keep up the good work Dave :)
well done, well said! And pull that trigger on those videos, id love to see more things from more content creators!
Great talking point video and fun skits! The sad fact is that although the comments will probably be full of people saying they'd watch your RE3 or Aliens vids (and they probably would!), you know yourself that the unrepresented masses probably won't.
But hey, if you do, I'm there! (for what that's worth 😅)
The fact that Star Wars legion, a game set in the universe of arguably one of the most iconic and popular settings ever made isnt getting the views of of Warhammer 40k tells me the issue isn't just down to Games Workshop having too much of the market. I think the game and setting of 40k is unique, very unique and sets itself apart from a lot of other settings. I'm really into my painting as well as the lore and story of 40k, whereas I couldn't care less about Star Wars (well, go back before Disney shat all over it and then maybe). UA-cam as a platform pigeon holes you into an audience who specifically wants to watch what you make, so when you deviate from that the people who came for what you were doing originally might skip that video, but when you go back to it then the people who like 40k will watch. It comes down to the fact that you need to build up an audience for the content you want to make, you cant just translate our whole audience onto something they probably have very little interest in. Its rough I know but until people just accept that 40k is a niche hobby to begin with, then take a part of that fanbase who is into painting, and then fractionalise it again into the people who like 40k, painting 40k AND like Star Wars then the viewership is surely going to dip dramatically. You have a core fanbase that will always come back and watch your videos, so make the content you want to and your enjoyment will shine through for those people, and in time the audience for that content will find you. I found you when you did the collab with Benji and the other guys and it was great. Keep doing what your doing, take the non GW videos on the chin and keep doing what you love because it wont become popular and a sought after thing unless you keep on doing it. All the best
Another issue I see with games like Star Wars is that the number of overall factions are very limited while GW seems to provide such a wide range that there's an army for everyone, and eventually long term players collect more armies that resonate with them.
With Star Wars you have what, 6 choices max? 2-3 of which are just "Storm Trooper but different"?
I watch your videos for you, the effort you put into the videos, and the chill nature in which they are presented. The general nerd culture you have in your background is the exact stuff I grew up with and have an interest in seeing. I did find the channel though geek gaming scenics where you guys went to a hobby shop and spent small amounts of money to make a Warhammer team. So essentially Warhammer brought me here and your content kept a fan. Health and safety frog cracked me up when I first heard the characters name btw.
It's the marvel/DC effect. It's hard to make a living talking about indie comics, especially if there are no superheroes in it.
I suppose that is compounded by the fact that discovery on UA-cam is not really what the algorithm is for. It's like Google targeting ads. They ain't trying to show you something neat, they only care about what'll most likely sell.
It's strange that there are miniatures from hugely famous IPs like Marvel/DC/LOTR, and they get absolutely crushed by the algorithm.
You barely see anything about them on UA-cam.
Super weird! Probably the mindset that it's polluting the hobby, i dunno!
@MSPaints such an antiquated way of thinking.
I'd rather play with minis from an IP that I care about and have spent years watching/reading, than trying to catch up on 40k Lore 😂
This is a great video. The it needs to be GW to succeed feel extends even beyond UA-cam right now. During the lockdown in 2020 and 2021 I tried to be a miniature painting streamer but I did not paint GW games at the time so paint other things, and I struggled. The channel did not grow and I failed after a year of trying to reach the minimum viewers I needed to become a twitch partner so I stopped. At the start of this year I started playing 40k again and while I don't have time to be a full time streamer right now, all the ones featuring GW model have had triple or more of the viewership as a one of with no announcement I would be streaming then my year of grinding ever did. It is an issue.
Dude I would love to see the resident evil and alien games shown off. I love warhammer stuff but I also find a lot of there stuff as it’s refreshing. I like Star Wars legions. Can’t speak for everyone, but I even use other companies miniatures in my armies. I hate poxwalker models and uses mantic zombies instead as I like the more horror feel of them.
Anybody know what's the music when the health and safety frog shows up in older videos ? It's super funky and i can't find it anywhere
Beyond good & evil - Spanish bar 😉
Great video Dave, love the channel. I suppose the challenge is to make a living from a small hobby without trying to address the majority of the players in that segment. I'm happy to have a small channel, sharing stuff I enjoy. Being small also means I'm not under pressure to put out content on a regular basis or to tailor my content to others. That also explains why my content is small but I'm okay with that.
I think a lot of the warhammer algorithm thing is that there is a large amount of warhammer fans who don't actually play/build/collect the miniatures. Most people I know who play get interested in other games pretty easily as well.
The mass effect reference. LOVE it.
You find this with posting up pictures of miniatures on social media too, I stuck up a photo of a Silver Bayonet chappy that I'd converted and got 20 likes/upvotes/bangarangs, whatever the kids call them. The Necromunda Squat I did a bit later had almost 900. That's only one example but it's pretty consistent that there's minimal interest unless I put up something that's GW, I only post things as I haven't played a game in 20 years or so and paint to unwind so it's my way of interacting with the wargaming hobby in general and while it's not the end of the world for me personally I do think it's a shame that the 'scene' has become so myopic when there's so much cool stuff out there.
You could paint your Alien model next to like a hive tyrant and make it a sneaky paint your nids like xenomorphs vid
I just discovered Warhammer and have enjoyed bingeing your videos theyre oddly relaxing and give me good vibes. So I guess for me personally im not gonna click on anything not Warhammer cause im not trying to learn about anything other than warhammer at the moment.
I watch your channel for you and how straight taking you are….couldn’t give a shit if you was painting shit,but it the way you’ve made the video that draws me in with the content and how you come across doing it…
Keep the faith 🤘🏻
reminds me a lot of D&D channels. TTRPGs are beholden to wizards of the coast the way tabletop wargaming is beholden to the workshop of games.
That spider bit got to me more then the dog kicking lol
Ungoliant mother funster, hahaha
I’m late to the show here, but I think it’s pretty simple. James workshop is the Disney of miniature gaming. If we don’t count wizards of the coast, or maybe Asmodee, they’re probably the Disney of tabletop gaming in general. So if I want to find a cool video about animation or something, I am more likely to click a Disney video than something else. It’s simple brand recognition I believe. Especially if we consider how actually tiny the miniature wargaming hobby is.
So I absolutely adore Modulorka, for example, but it’s one dude slinging out STL’s about Orks. There’s no way it’s going to have the same traction as a big flashing over budgeted space marine video.
Being someone that has worked for marketing agencies that have promoted the worst nazi gold products (Fanta...) the problem all creators have against them is algorithms. Why does a Warhammer Skeleton get 40k view while a KoW one get 40, in my professional computer like experience, because there is 40k x more games workshop videos they get more weight on the search algorithm. If everyone stopped making any GW content and only made KoW content, and that's what people clicked, liked and shared, then KoW would start to rank. And then a new GW video a year later would only go 30 views. Similar to Google and it's idea of "heat". A website has more heat if it is linked to by more websites. If they can discern that the website is an authority on say painting Warhammer Skeletons it'll rank better when I search "painting skeletons". The age of a website and its domain helps too. So older videos that still get viewed will be pushed to the top of rankings, again like websites in Google. It sucks, as you're 100% right. You might get a better painting lesson from a KoW video than a GW video, but GW has the "authority" and "heat" due to the numerous non painting GW videos tagged GW/Warhammer. I could also be wrong 🤣 but that's my experience and I'm sticking with it. Now I'm going to kill the fucking fly that keeps landing on my leg.
I definitely get where you're coming from, and I do click shit that has a Space marine on the cover, but I do love seeing other wargames and terrain show up on the channel. I think the core of the issue is that, while I love Battletech and Star Wars Legion and Bolt Action etc, not everyone else likes those. It's sort of like a Venn diagram where GW products are in the centre, and everyone else's interests overlap it in some way, but not everyone's interests overlap each other.
So while the "whole audience" likes GW games, only a portion also like Battletech or Star Wars, whereas another portion likes Flames of War or Dropzone Commander, and far too often those interests for the smaller game systems don't or won't overlap.
It is the curse of GW being so big and 40K/AoS being basically THE only intro point for miniature games that is largely visible to the general public. And it is a fucking pain in the nuts because I really like when you do smaller game systems. I wanna see you smash out some Battletech with Contrast paints and drybrushing, or bash together some Battledroids with oil washes and pigments.
I love Warhammer lore, setting, and art (especially the old art). That, coupled with the hobbying aspect of miniature wargames, prompts me to seek GW inspired UA-cam content. So, it is lore+creativity=interest (for me). So, to make another wargaming/hobbying topic sell on UA-cam, I suppose you have to generate contagious interest for the lore and apply a inspired creativity that attracts others. Easier said than done, to be sure, but that is my 2 cents.
Correct. And cater to geeks and nerds by making more challenging and complex game than for example 40k. With clearly defined, relatable setting, barriers of entry, time consuming and expensive (everyone is cheaper than GW, and we see how well it works).
Make a game that would be a jurney. Release line of models complimented with rules that would make certain models viable only in massive battles, beyond proportions of 2000pts GW benchmark. Make game feel collectible and true challenge.
This was incredibly insightful and I will be kind of taking this as advice. I've been thinking about making some stuff on the internet about the hobby.
So, this might be a strange comparison, but I'm a painter/curator and work with museums. And they've been doing this for ages. It's called 'blockbuster exhibits', where you invest in - let's say - 1 big exhibition of a well-known artist that is going to score you a lot of visitors anyways, in order to finance 2 or 3 smaller exhibitions of lesser-known ones.
Now are those lesser known ones going to get the same amount of visitors? No. But if you don't want the field to stay in place and go for development, that is certainly the way to go without ending up in an obscure corner where only 10 people walk in.
So,
Question 1: is this an issue because creators expect the same amount of views on each video?
Question 2: are the 'gow-inspired' titles necessary for people wandering in, or also for people who are already subscribed to that channel? (curious to know)
The way this whole 'thing' has evolved is actually not that strange, and it also has very little to do with GW or how they run their company.
It's to do with how an average human discovers or stumbles on new things of interest, and how we are often quite attached to the things already in our comfort zone.
When it comes down to how I bought GW minis, I believe its primarily the setting that got me more into it. It doesnt mean I havent checked out other minis. I know about Rivenstone coming out. And theres already Bolt Action, Wild West Exodus, Wargames Atlantic and what not and not gonna lie I see the value to it. Whats kinda sad is Im not hooked on anything else besides Warhammer at the moment. Its weird, cause I want GW to have competition but I dont want to force myself to buy something for the sake of it.
Just realized you did the exact thing you said in the video for the title
Great video mate. Those interview bits had me 🤣 you've raised some important points and I think you've provided the most complete and yet neutral stand point and I appreciate it. Too much hate on gw for its popularity yet because it's so popular it encourages more folks into the hobby and onto UA-cam. It's a symbiotic relationship that can be toxic sometimes but we could do without it either. Keep up the great work mate! 🤘😎♥️
There is a lot of peripheral content surrounding warhammer. Anybody who watches the helsreach movie on a whim, for instance, will likely get pretty sucked into the other content, like lore, miniatures and whatnot. The sheer volume of warhammer content gets people looking for warhammer, not other miniature lines. Maybe poll viewers in comments and put teasers in warhammer vids for other projects you"d like to do. For instance showing that Alien box set has me jonesing to watch that paintjob. Possibly content creators can create buzz for other systems and make the free stuff you could get worthwhile, after a bit of hype for the other products. Possibly do some hype in several consecutive videos and then have a IT'S HERE THE VIDEO YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR...ALIENS!!! clickbait type crap. Advertise what you want to do ahead of time to give it the best chance of hitting. might work, maybe not, either way this advice is free.
I would watch Luke, You, and a few others if you were just talking about the benefits of dreadlock microphones mate!!
I had a similar experience to the the g.w videos blackhole situation when I tried to publish my own comic. I spent years writing it, planning it, creating characters, doing the artwork and writing all the stuff by myself and when I tried to get any traction in the community nobody was interested....work I did that took years would get passed over, but a sketch of spiderman or deadpool would get tons of likes and shares. I got a bit annoyed and refused to draw other peoples work as a form of protest and all that happened was I had to watch other people happily piggybacking off the work of others whilst they blatantly disregarded I.P rights rocket to success, while I went broke, and to top it off a bunch of my work got blatantly ripped off when I sent it as part of a portfolio to a profeesional artist "friend" of mine who was hiring artists for his own comic book project, which is kinda funny as he claimed he was hiring someone else because my work wasn't the right style...in other words the other guy had a famous name, but he still wanted to use my art. There is no denying, it's shit that we as creators have to jump through hoops and be made to feel like sellouts just to earn a living, but let's hope speaking up about it opens peoples eyes up to the struggle, and in turn that may inspire them to checkout a more diverse range of subjects.
Damnit! I only rarely view miniature modelling channels because 90% of it is Games Workshop based (or the thumbnails imply as such), and I want new things to look at. Luke's channel's great for that. I'm annoyed I didn't hear about the Prodos stuff before encountering this video (yes, seriously. I don't browse a lot of mini related websites and such, so rely on UA-cam to point me at things - such as Anvil Industry and Artel W), as they're now virtually impossible to get unless you want to pay thousands for them...
I think a lot of this can be attributed to how GW has put themselves out there. I am old enough to remember the VHS/Beta "wars". Beta was the better product, but VHS was able to bury the market. In GW's case, when GW was starting to spread their wings there was not much else out there, so they did not even need to expend energy burying their competition. So they were able to just get product out there, Lots of product. Everything you saw was GW. It became part of our culture, (we have had an entire generation born, and grow up, with GW in their lives), and now, I think, it is hard for many to associate plastic crack with anything but GW. (In the west at any rate. Ask someone from the far east about plastic crack and you will most likely hear the word "gunpla"). That, to me, is why most folk will click an informational thumbnail with a GW image over the same info without a GW image.
Big brain Dave! Love it. LOVE it!
I very much have changed my video consumption habits in recent months to try and trick the algorithm away from only favouring GeeDubs branded mini videos. I'm certainly not going to change things on my own, but I have already noticed that I'm getting recommended waaaaaay more videos from smaller channels about smaller games. Sure, the production quality on those videos aint exactly mindblowing 90% of the time, but I honestly don't mind. If I have to trade production quality for something else than the latest effing Space Marine release or whatever FoMo limited boxset that company is pushing this time around, I'll do the switch happily.
First of all... I enjoy your videos and I couldn't care less about the title. I watch your content in large parts because of you and your humour. (Thanks to Luke for pointing your channel out)
And secondly: I stopped playing GW rule systems in 2017 and when I discovered KoW I was actively searching for KoW content and there is f☆●#^!% little because everything has GW titles... so I started watching videos of interesting characters instead of branded content.
So I'll be one of the few people clicking on the non GW thumbs of yours.
One of the problems of the other channel (forgot his name), at least for me, is that his vids are too long. I get 30 to 45 kids-free-minutes, so I won't start a vid that's over an hour long... but he knows that as he said in his last video.
But you and Luke can drop the GW vid names for me... I'll watch it because of you guys anyway.
I went and watched the Blackjack Legacy video referenced, both videos make some good points and observations but I think there is something like survivorship bias going on.
BJL is making the point that only GW content gets views -> creators only make GW content -> other games/manufacturers don't have their time in the sun -> viewer base of those games never grow -> back to step 1 (funnily enough you see the same argument regarding frequency of Space Marine vs other army releases).
I think in reality the vast majority of the wider hobby is still the "GW hobby" or spun off elements of it, people are coming to UA-cam for GW/Warhammer related content and channels are existing off of the back of that.
I'm glad he's taking a build it and they will come approach to his future content but he's paying too much attention to the hobby equivalent of the Daily Mail if he thinks GW is at fault for fewer views.
Must be so frustrating. I don't play any GW stuff but I see how they affect my fav YT creator. I make a lot of terrain and that's why I watch your vids. UA-cam is so f'd as well.
Availability is a massive reason why people will click on a Warhammer Skeletons video over a Kings of War Skeletons video. I know where I can get Warhammer Skeletons. I know like a dozen online places and half a dozen IRL places. Where can I get Kings of War Skeletons from? I don't know. Maybe three or four of the shops I frequent have a box or two? And then.. what do I do with them? Will I *actually* play Kings of War? Probably.. not. A lot of people who love Warhammer models don't .. care much .. about the Tabletop WarGAMING hobby, I think. It's just a more involved way of buying, like, action figures, plushies or FunkoPops of "Thing You Like". We buy little idols and trinkets of things we like. Big reason why Warhammer's drawing in such a crowd is the story behind the models after all. Many folks don't play their Optimal Army, or even play a competitive army at all. Nah, they like Big Angry Man from the book they read, so they paint him and his Angry Friends instead. You don't really have that for many franchises. LotR is deliberately kept crippled by GW (and it'd just be another GW product) and Star Wars Legion is, for some weird reason, simply not as popular. Maybe it has to do with toy sales? Like.. a Darth Vader mini is cool and all, but .. I've seen Darth Vader in so many ways before in my life that I can't exactly scream with excitement when I see the official Star Wars Legion sculpt. But getting a mini (or seeing someone kitbash a mini) for Noodlebert the Saucy, the most obscure side-character from one of the Warhammer books? That's sort of exciting in a weird way?
I hear what you're saying. As a fan of horror and AvP, know that I'm in that niche group that can't wait until you find a financially viable excuse to showcase RE3 and AvP
As someone who has never watched your videos before and started watching miniatures through mini wargamings battle reports I came into the hobby in like 2014 watching that and then started looking up other GW creators. Now UA-cam recommends random channels to me in the form of GW based content because that's what I started with. I don't really search for new miniatures based content; either gw or otherwise because I'm lazy and the algorithm or my prior subscriptions have that for me somewhere. I may be in the minority but I am under the assumption that I probably am not. Most viewers probably found their way onto the mini based UA-cam's through some form of Warhammer based video. I'm not blaming the algorithm so much as saying when we'll more than 50% of the initial searches are for GW because that's what is at your local gamestore and online in ads, video games, books, etc you end up with people just not searching for anything new because it's readily made available to us and we are fairly lazy in general when it comes to "finding new games and content"
Yeah, GW got so big and such a monopoly that people now use 'Warhammer' as a generic term for playing any table-top battle system I think. Is this good for GW? I don't know.
I haven't read the comments, so I don't know if someone else has made this comparison, but I would think it has to do with the popularity and what is more common place in a given topic/community. For example, I would think that a video with how to change a car battery for a Honda has more views then how to do it for a Porsche, even though a majority of the steps and hardware are the same.
Also when a new member of the community is looking for how to paint, the person will more than likely look for how to paint a specific unit or model as suppose to looking up generic painting techniques. I would think for a majority of people when learning something new, seeing an example in the given frame of reference of what they are dealing with will be better than single/multiple videos that cover generic topics.
So given that Warhammer (Games Workshop) is the Honda in our first example, they will get more views because it is the majority of the hobby OR it is what more new/first timers are introduce to so they put most of their hobby experience in that frame or point of view.
Just my $0.02, and I could be totally wrong.
Is it related to the search terms that people use when looking for videos? Once I find a good channel I like I go back to it an dlook forward to the video no matter the content. Look at Black Magic Craft, Jeremy is making his own game, and those videos are great, but not related to GW. Allthough he does use terms that people might find for DND searches? The situation sucks, but carry on trucking man, love your videos and would love to see some AVP or resident evil stuff! perhaps comparing them to blackstone fortress? ;)
You could name the videos "alternatives to Warhammer" or something like that to praise the dark gods of the algorithm and to get people clicking lol. There is a lot of tabletop minitures that I don't even know about and wouldn't mind seeing. I think people click on Warhammer just beacuse it's what they are used to and know what they are gonna get. Interesting video.
Games Workshop was my gateway drug into the hobby with 2nd edition 40K, but I haven't actually played any of their games or bought any of their miniatures in years. The hobby has become about painting and modeling for me, and there are tons of cheaper alternatives that are just as cool. Heck I don't even use GW paints anymore because I find their naming conventions increasingly confusing. That being said, I do notice despite not having a strong personal preference, most of the hobby videos I watch are in some way related to GW products. I figured that was just market dominance. I hadn't even considered their popularity would skew viewers away from videos about more niche games and minis. That sucks because I love finding cool new minis to paint instead of the latest incarnation of space marines. I imagine I'm a bit of outlier though.
So that's why I can't find any videos of people painting historical minis!!
So personally, I’m a painter first and therefor I watch anything that is painting related regardless of game system. I also enjoy specific personalities in the UA-cam space and I’ll watch anything they do!
As a small UA-cam though the grind is already insurmountable without trying to go outside of the GW stuff if I were inclined to
D&D has been doing this to TTRPGs and World of Warcraft has done this to MMORPGs for years. It's an unfortunate reality of one specific company's game being so dominant in the market. Unfortunately not much can be done without people taking a more invested interest in other game systems, and a lot of that comes from creators pushing them. Unfortunately, when so many creators rely on this stuff for the livelihood, it's harder to justify pushing stuff in that manner. It's kind of a vicious cycle, in that regard.
would love to see the aliens minis painted up, GW arnt the be all and end all of mini painting and wargaming, its a sad thing that its become like this, i think people have been flooded with GW stuff which is a shame, as you say there are lots of awsome mini systems out there we have just become so used to seeing, but the more you push other systems the more people will look and realise this, love your content its a giggle and the tips and technics are realy helpful :)
Oooo! AVP Prodos! What a great game and models that should be promoted more. I think they’re out of print. F-GW!
If it weren't for smaller UA-camrs putting out videos about GW alternatives, I don't think I would've ever found them. I get that they don't get the views, but I hope content creators continue to make them. I think one day GW will collapse under their own weight. Until then, I'll continue to suscribe, like and comment on the folks that do make content on GW alternatives.
This is an issue driven by human psychology; we naturally gravitate towards things we know over things we don't. And this is pretty exactly why and how marketing works, you typically buy coca cola rather than an unknown brand because you see adverts for it all the time. It's why you buy that toilet roll brand or bread brand, because you know the name. There is some conscious choice involved, but typically, and importantly for businesses over large numbers of people, brand recognition wins out. I imagine the YT algorithm reflects that too, as do the clicks of people en masse.
It's a pitty it's so hard searching and finding good videos on, for example, stripping models cause they are hidden behind landspeeder restoration thumbnails.
Tabletop Minions Uncle Atom seems to.be talking about what ever game he pleases but maybe he's not full time YT I'm not sure.
I think I watch wahammer videos predominantly because it's the game I play and my few need friends play and switching game is such a massive investment in time and energy to get everybody on board when you are not a full time hobbyist. So I just stick with what we have for now.
To be fair, this is also a very much an issue for everyone. When ever i do 40K content over the Battletech content the algorithm slaps me hard and i get no views. Now i am a video hobbyist as much as i am a wargaming hobbyist. So the quality of my content is.. well.. But there is still a big difference when a video only does 10% of the normal. So GW is no magic spoon... But the back end system of YT lock creators in to one single topic to increase engagement.
I think some content creators have backed themselves into a corner by building their audience around a singular product.
I was talking about this with friends the other day, none of us only watch the content we watch on youtube because of the topic of the content. All of us realised we watched/subscribed to different channels based on more than just the content pitched, i.e we all follow creators we enjoy regardless of the content. Case and point, I follow this channel, I love Dave's videos, I have also never played a desktop game let alone painted a miniature or built terrain.
I'm not a content creator, so I don't mean to discount any of the stats creators have access to regarding views, however, looking at the content I do consume regularly, I can 100% say the creator is the product, not the content.
Another example; we recently had an election in Australia, our media pretty crap, so a lot of people, including myself turned to youtube commentators for content. A lot of these creators aren't great, so after the election, when their content is no longer relevant, a lot of us switched off. Now, you might read that as an example of content being king, that's not how I see it. When you require specific knowledge you seek it out, when you want to enjoy something you're following the content is less important, the creator is king.
I hope this ramble makes sense.
I have three AoS 2000 point plus forces, two 40k forces annnnnd I never play them lol. I find I play warpath, deadzone, Batman miniature game, D and or D and believe it or not on and off since last summer when my mum came over with a bunch of my old GW stuff… inquisitor! Lol. I love is grimness, the customisation and scratch building that you’re able and encouraged to do. GW don’t want you making thing nower days… you know… incase it’s better than there’s or something.
That got you a sub, still you wouldn't need it if you were just 2 meters away from the Nazi Gold at the end of the final show... almost enough to fund a UFO ;)
Seriously though, very cool and I totally get what you're saying, sadly people don't on the whole branch out and stick to what they know (hell look at Facebook and the weird ass things that pop up from those unibrow colonies!)
I'm very new to the hobby and very late to this video but my experience is this:
Warhammer is the entry to the hobby for a lot of people. Myself included. So we get in, we get excited, we start consuming content. At first, I literally only consumed Space Wolves specific warhammer content because hey... I'm new and everyones favorite faction when theyre new is the space vikings. And then it became warhammer in general and now, occasionally, I watch videos for other systems (specifically things like Malifaux)
I think what yall are experiencing is a huge influx of new people to the hobby re: growth during the pandemic, and theyre all looking for content regarding their entry into the hobby... warhammer. My guess would be thats whats causing the "Warhammer or Die" results on your channels.
But as this new generation of gamers begins to get bored (bored is the wrong word. fulfilled?) with Warhammer/GW products and starts to branch out, you might see more and more views for different systems. Like I personally have little interest in Marvel or Star Wars table top games (im just exhausted of seeing both those franchises) but I cannot imagine that they wont grow in popularity over time. And I've got a handle on warhammer now. So whats next? What other games catch my eye? What other model lines?
And Im going to turn to the content creators I trust/like that I found via warhammer to show me. So I guess what I'm saying is... dont despair? I think the time is coming where youll get success with other brands.
Having been using the various algorithms to make a living for myself and my family for over two decades these points hit home hard.
I do not envy anyone that has to operate in a market as small as this hobby because at the end of the day all this math does is serve to strengthen confirmation bias. It also means that the biggest pocket book will win due to Branding and data tracking.
What people do not realize is that once you use the internet, not matter the browser or app, Google/Alphabet starts associating everything on all your devices with various identifiers through APIs. Google fonts is used all over so when you start showing your interests you will be fed the same point of view repeatedly without realizing it'd all tailored.
This happens I'm account or out and is no dependant of things like cookies.
Effort is needed to find new ideas and unfortunately we've become s pretty lazy society.
The good news is that those who don't care about a mega corporations ToS can use it all to our own advantages as Blackjsck did with flames kf war etc. You just need to harden enough so they can't serve you or desist when they C&D you. I prefer the former.
I think for a large part of the community that's trying to learn back in the day if it was tied in with war hammer it typically had a higher quality video. but that's not really true anymore so I think it's almost a lack of perception altering videos. I post this on discourses video on a similar topic a bunch of you guys that are making this type of content just need to pick a new game to make content for a week or 2 or maybe a whole month and then switch to a new game and make battle reports with each other paint the miniatures together on calls or in person. You said it yourself you need a draw for the algorithm the algorithm loves crossovers.
I guess it must be difficult for creators wanting to do other stuff but most people like Warhammer, I know I don’t care about other game systems and don’t watch videos about them
There r so many videos on warhammer and gw that when u pick up a lesser know game and wana watch videos on it u just can't find them pisses me off just started playing last days and can only find around 30 videos
Warhammer through it's IP licensing gets a lot of cross media cross niche mentions. You play video games and your looking up painting? Have you heard of (Total War) Warhammer? In the toy space they are getting exposure. The age of the IP definitely helps them as well. Comics, books and audio books they are in. Sci fi universe comparison videos. Warcraft and Starcraft being Warhammer adjacent and the associated stories with their creation. I think there's just so many bread crumbs out there in other types of media and hobbies that people trace back to Warhammer and then discover miniature wargaming that it's a common starting point for many people
There a couple of games I would really like to try (Wild West Exodus, Lunar etc..) but no one in the gaming club in my area is interested and that limits the scope (I wish we had an alternative gamins system day). I think that initial buy in is really strong at keeping people within a section of the hobby. Not to mention it is really expensive, for not really any reason at all apart from profit, which makes it a hard sell to others to invest in other gaming systems.
Not only that but I think GW has learnt that the Lore/stories of 40k are a huge reason people get interested and stay interested because it creates a sea of complex stories in which your plastic toy soldiers live. I think without that setting, it would literally be a game of pew pew plastic toy soldiers.
You get a like for that opening gag alone 😄😄😄
"Right angle gothic corner" lol pretty much the majority of 40k boards
The algorithm often gets blamed for things that are actually the result of viewer habits. The algorithm is reactive.
And then UA-cam channels react to that. Self fulfilling prophecy.
It’s the same as “clickbait” as a whole.
There was a fun time before the horrible 2020s where I was able to be on top doing stuff for D&D only. Loved it. But the platform is now GW or bust. I’ve just given up. I just do what I do. It is what it is. I don’t like Warhammer very much 🤷🏻♂️
Was thinkin’ about your good self when I was writing this. And very grateful you’re still suggested to me daily!
Honestly I think you didn't have to worry about this as much because you were orginally a "Dnd" crafter (a lot like wylock) and both your craft and audience you established could easily branch into terrain for "wargames" which could include Warhammer. Also I have always admired your system of getting ideas, where you use your sponsor's minis to make terrain, naturally blending both together in a way that doesn't seem janky
Fully Agree. If you click enough on do not recommend youtube will stop showing the stuff. but people are lazy and think UA-cam should just know what you like and dont like.
It lives and breathes, it learns.
Clever girl.
I enjoy your projects a great deal BMC. The truth is most of the scenery and terrain bits you do are usable in D&D, Warhammer, and the whole gamut of tabletop games. Do you have to tag something #warhammer to get views? Unfortunately, yes. But you don't have to present Warhammer as the be all - end all rules set.
I completely agree with you here. Apart from the 'my cat destroys my Warhammer' video. Unforgiveable. My favourite point 'a 40k table it the same as a star wars table' EXACTLY. It's the same for 90 percent of this hobby.
Yeah it's also not GW as much as 2 GW games. Middle earth people are kind of viewed as the prince Andrew of the GW royal family.
In all actuality I could give a shit less if you’re doing GW content I watched 1 video of yours and got hooked on your talent and personality. If anything I watch your content.. even if it’s GW. I play Blood Bowl but other than the fun of painting GW minis I don’t care. I’m gonna try doing what you do and hope to someday get to meet you. You’re awesome, funny and talented. Id watch you modge podge a dog turd..(obviously after GW killed the dog) keep up the good work and do collaborations with Luke if you can he’s cool as fuck as well
The problem that many of us face is that... Well... Videos outside of the "standard" topics of a channel get a slow drip feed of viewers and while that does not sound so bad per se... That in turn leads to less push from YT and that in turn leads to even less eyes on the content that in turn leads to less of a push... Thus the slow death begins.
Let’s go blood bowl!!
Totally agree with above ^^ keep up the awesome content
@@TawessBitsbox its not like hes a big youtuber. 25k isnt alot of people fair play if he was up in them mill but when his channel is this low he needs to keep onto making the same things
@@budman8926 That was my point, that we smaller channels are so dependent on the YT ai content distribution system (aka the algorithm) that any deviation from what it expect us to push can be fatal. I pretty much only does Battletech stuff, so the few times i have broken away from that the videos can have up to 90% less traffic. Even if it is GW stuff. So GW stuff is not a auto success but there is ofc way bigger of a community to tap in to compared to Battletech, confrontation or Warmachine/Hordes. So the growth potential is much greater and that does create a monopoly situation that does not in any way help other wargaming communities.
As someone who's only just about dipped their toes in the hobby, I think it comes down in great part to how expensive the hobby itself is. People seem to stick with the first franchise they buy into (probably mainly GW stuff, since they've eaten the entire market) and are not super interested in investing into something else. Will I watch something about SW Legion or Victrix or Bolt Action? Sure thing, if it seems interesting. But I'll largely stick to the plastic toy range I've sunk $300+ into.
I’ve just stopped investing in any gaming product that I know I won’t 100% be playing with any regularity. That includes GW product too- I haven’t bought a 40k rulebook in at least three years, and I have a stack of Necromunda books on my shelf that aren’t doing me anything.
I have 3 AoS armies of 3000 points. Deathwatch well over 3000 points.
And i would still rather play Malifaux or Infinity. I do actaully
Non-GW stuff can be much cheaper. A Turnip28 army can be 25-50€.
Depending on how we define 'the hobby', I'm not at all convinced GW *HAS* eaten the entire market.
Are we defining the hobby as miniatures & terrain? Then GW is at best on par with WizKids & Reaper, because sure as hell nobody is buying packs of space marines to use in their D&D game. If anything, I suspect WizKids is the actual dominant force here, because of the official tie-in they have with WOTC.
Are we defining the hobby more specifically as miniature wargaming? Well in that case maybe yeah GW is king... although the miniatures game is by this point the LEAST profitable part of the 40k brand... with a high initial cost (in both time & $$$) to get started... vs. video games & books.
And even then, when I walk into my friendly local games store... I see a wall of kings of war, & a wall of 40k, & several other walls with the afore mentioned Reaper & WizKids, plus a few other sundry brands. Of the lot, the LEAST affordable is 40K. I'm not convinced that the clueless kid (or the even more clueless parent of said kid) is going to pick the goofy looking dudes with shoulder pads that costs half again as much. Of course, that may vary based on choice of friendly local game store & what they choose to stock.
Of course, if we're defining the hobby as just 40K/Games Workshop... AKA the reality GW's marketing wishes we lived in... then yes I suppose GW has eaten the market :D.
There are so many other sytems to use those same models and have more fun with
im one of the freaks that prefers the non warhammer content. i used to play D&D but now just paint minis to relax and take up even more shelf space. so do what makes you happy. im more interested in techniques and practical knowledge in hopes my painted minis dont look like i panted them with a potato while having a seizure.
I feel the same. Although I graduated from the potato and moved to carrot. A world of difference.
I'm so exhausted and burned out with the whiney GW kicked my dog crowd.
Yeah I still watch Discourse though cuz I'm a simp and I'm a sucker for her silly accent.
Still I get thier frustration but I say nut up and focus on cool alternatives. Table top time has. Wylock was the guy who got me into OPR and I have never looked back at gw
The TRUTH ;-) is that content creators absolutely have the ability to make new things trend- the tricky part is getting us to agree on what the next big thing should be. :-) I see your vote for Resident Evil 3 the board game, and I cast my own vote for Relicblade! Luke loves him some Kings of War, and Miniac is all about A Song of Ice and Fire. The day we all get excited for the same system will be a very fun day. Great video!
Thanks Brent! Maybe we should all agree to just, out of nowhere go REALLY hard on origami for a week.
This is very much a thing. If we would all agree on never again intentionally mentioning any game or brand of paint again.. things would look different. It would be like we where doing crafting videos or something :)
Kudos to that!
Middle aged gamers like me who had a break during their first working years and now have both the money and the time to get back to the hobby are always going to default first on what they already knew in the 2000s.
BUT! It is you guys the ones who inspire us to try new things, and using things that we are familiar with to do so is one of the most effective ways to do so. Currently I'm very interested on playing Frostgrave only because Black Magic Craft explained how it was like a fusion between Mordheim and DnD systems and I only have a 3D printer with its corresponding patreon suscriptions because of all of you guys.
@@MSPaints I would watch the shit out of those origami videos.
I'm here because the videos you make are just hilarious regardless of the content. However the Warhammer ones interest me more slightly ( more so with other channels) because I own a part of that product and use UA-cam to expand my painting, building and playing ability. The time I have doesn't really allow me to put down Games workshop and pick up another game where I have to start from the beginning once more. Either way keep up the amazing content!
I’m Visually Impaired, almost blind. I can’t play Tabletop Skirmish/War Games anymore.
I subscribed to you, as it’s inspiring to get the perspective of another person with a disability in the hobby.
Watching/listening to this content reminds me of enjoying the hobby as a teenager. I still paint…kind of, too.
I’m not burned out on Warhammer yet, as I usually indulge an hour a week. That’s enough. When I am burned out, I’ll get interested in other games.
To be honest, I’ll watch any content put out by UA-camrs I like, but Warhammer is usually a safe bet, as it’s familiar.
As someone big into Tabletop Roleplaying Games: I feel the same way about Dungeons & Dragons, as these UA-camrs feel about Warhammer. They’re the Kleenex and Hoover of the hobbies, and it can’t be changed.
I'm sorry to hear about your vision. I suffer from keratoconus myself and I had three cornea transplants in my left eye alone (two were in the same year) so I can definitely relate to some of what you're going through.
@@outpost206 two transplants in a year sounds stressful. I don’t envy that!
The paint stripping video is a great example of why this current landscape is a shame. I spent quite awhile a few weeks ago searching for exactly that type of content (either videos or web pages) - what product could I find here in Western Australia that could help me remove multiple layers of decades old enamel paint from some classic Hero Quest minis.
It was bloody hard and I wish your video had come up. Luckily I there was one product tested by GooberTown Hobbies that is actually available here.
naphtha lighter fluid alcohol ever clear 50% mix soak 42 hours. no damage
I had an existential crisis when I realised how much of my creative core was wrapped up in a company I don't like the practices of. I was knee deep in the Warhammer world all through my Nurgle Diaries series but as I started to really push the boundaries on what constitutes as "Warhammer" I realised i just liked making weird stuff. It felt disingenuous to keep going after my love for the game faded... so I stopped. My goal was to pivot my channel to a more general crafting audience like Nerdforge, Studson, Bill Making Stuff, Tested ect but that transition has been very costly and slow and I still can't escape being in the recommended feeds of primarily Warhammer channels. I call all fantasy roleplaying "D&D" and when people asked what I do and I say miniatures they say "like warhammer?", so I'm conflicted. I want people to find me via Warhammer because I wanna be the reason why someone looks at their miniatures differently and teaches them to kitbash and make their own arratives but I don't want to contribute to GW machine either if I don't have to.
I've been trying to escape for a while. If we can collectively familiarise people with the same term for weird miniature garbage that we can all use in our titles that could unite us all that would be wicked.
I love what your channel has become my man. Nurgle diaries felt like a great transition into it, tonally. We should have a something different month between us. One video in a set month that is something different. With a set hashtag. That’d be niiiiiice.
I watch very little UA-cam. When I do, crafting videos are up top. The difference between “miniature videos” and “crafting videos” is staggering. Very product specific, technique centered (mini vids) vs. idea realization / journey / creation (crafting). It’s fascinating how fast I got indoctrinated into the one and not the other.
One thing that I think would help viewers is to stop relying on the Home page. It blows my mind that so many people don't use the Subscriptions page.
I subscribe to content creators I like and a.) I don't really want to see stuff I'm not subscribed to because of some algorithm and b.) I discover new creators by the creators I already watch and trust.
Not saying that fixes everything, but it makes sure that you actually SEE the content you subscribe to instead of hoping it shows up. And it means something a subscribed content creator creates that would normally get lost to the algorithm well, isn't.
The most important thing is to both find people you like watching and such. Oh and use stuff like the like button and such to get more content you would like.
I use the subscription page. It does not display all channels you are subscribed to. I have 500+ channel subs over the past 10 years. At one point I was interested in woodworking, I have 20-30 channels that are active there but they no longer appear in my subscriptions. They have not appeared for a long time. Occasionally I dig through subbed channels and puappear in my subscriptions. They have not appeared for a long time. Occasionally I dig through subbed channels and watch some, they still publish weekly or monthly. Yet they are never there. Likewise for most of the subtopics I am interested in. YT is garbage.
@@joel6376 I mean, I've had people say similar but I've never had that happen? And at least in my circle of friends, they've never had that happen either?
So I'm not say it doesn't happen, but that really seems to be a rare occasion; enough that I wonder if there's another cause that hasn't been identified?
@@aaronbrown4275 imo it is youtube trying to get you to watch more things (more time on platform). Maybe it only happens when you have a lot and they curate the subscription page to what you are currently watching more. When I say "they no longer appear" - they do, a single video very occasionally. That is what prompted me to check out their channels.
@@aaronbrown4275 usually they get down prioritised if you haven't watched a channel for a long time. I just did a cleanse so the ones I don't care much about don't create a lot of clutter for me
This video is the 'fun, drunk, uncle' version of what I wish Tabletop Minions was like lol. All joking aside, I could watch Dave discuss toilet bowl repair in this format and still be entertained af.
Except tabletop minions doesn't blame the company when it's not their fault
Myself and my group of lads have all pretty much fallen off the GW bandwagon due to over saturation and we just don't have time to keep up with all the rules as we're auld lads. I do feel like the warhammer content is waning for me, and I happily dip into any content now for miniatures, especially from great creators such as yourself. But no way in fuck would I 6 years ago when I got back into the hobby. GW are still seeing growth and I hope it starts spilling more into other mini companies. I actually bought my first Battletech boxset this year and I can't wait to get it painted up.
Good to see a reflective video on this topic. It worries me that channels that primarily focus on being mad at GW do better than people embracing positive hobby content for literally any other game. Speaking only of my own gaming microcosm, the local gaming scene is much more diverse than UA-cam seems to be. Not sure how this could be improved except by people clicking on things they enjoy instead of going for the dopamine hit of drama, and being a bit more adventurous.
Heya Dave. I'm one of Andy's gang. First off, let's start with a thank you for supporting the boss and understanding. Much love 🥰.
As a hobbiest and Painter, I don't really do any gaming. I paint what I like, aesthetically, so I like to explore different mini lines. It'd be lovely to see more variety in my you tube feed as GW isn't my go to, not because I hate GW, I don't, just that not many of their minis are of interest to me. If they were, it'd be dead easy. But I do love The Cool stuff, not the popular stuff. Thank you for this video and you get a follow from me. *please don't bash me, I'm not taking a pop a GW personalities, or the company, I just have a different approach* 🥰
GW has the largest market share. They are THE name in miniature wargaming. I hope it changes. Lack of competition is bad in any marketplace and GW's recent piss takes with price hikes and swingy real rebalances mid-edition are proof of that. I want to make content for other systems. I paint shit on Instagram and only have about 1800 followers, but I can confirm that non-GW content does not get the same eyes. I end up adding #warhammer40k to most of my stuff, even if I won't use it for 40k.
Great take on an otherwise super whiny topic.
Contentcreators should try talking to the hobby stores who didn't want to stock Games Workshop and Magic the Gathering during the 90s and 00s.
Oh wait. They don't exist anymore.