In my opinion, theses kind of protests should impact governments and the oil companies, not the general public. A few days ago, a protest closed one of the main bridges in London. These had a massive impact on regular people, the NHS and other valuable services. These kind of protests generally just foster anger and hate towards the movement instead of getting people to listen
Interesting that you go into this subject, I have been thinking a lot about what I think of shock activism, and I sometimes think it is quite nuanced what works and what doesn't.... I also speak with quite some people in XR on a regular basis and there are a lot of different voices in this movement - and I think more nuance than you see when you look at the media and reactions within the media on these kinds of stunt.... so much food for thought and too much to specify in one little comment ^^ I do understand that there are people who get completely frustrated by shock activism in general, and I sometimes do too (especially when I really can't see why the action has the form that it does, like with this Van Gogh painting action)... I think it really depends on who the actions are impacting and if there is a clear communication and a clear correlation between the subject of protest and the act of protest (so that it is clear what the actual goal is and that is has something to do with the form of the action basically :P )
@@Karincl7 I do care and still see it as vandalism, attacking museums or affecting the workers of supermarkets, that it's not doing much really, because lets be real, the owners is going to charge the cost to the workers and managers of the stores, they are not going to lose.
There was an activist who dumpster dive. He took all the food and arranged the fruits and vegetables in a art form. He told people they can take whatever they want. This showed people how much food waste there is in the world. I loved this..... I'm glad the painting was okay. I'm not for the shock value. There are too many things in this world that make me sad. Showing people in a kind way somehow sends out a more powerful message to me than shock value. Thanks
Hi Gittemary, I think this is one of your best videos! I really respect your opinion, you are one clever lady! There's a vacancy for Prime minister in the UK, I'd vote for you 😂
If shock activism is about throwing food on paintings it makes me a) feel like people do not appreciate art, b) they bark with no bite, protesting but not setting an example so others would be jealous and happy to adopt and c) they cannot convince me that they care about the environment. On the contrary, I will completely ignore them and continue searching ways to help the environment on my own. Thank you for sharing your opinion Gittemary! It is always a pleasure to watch your videos!
The girls who poured the sup did waste food while at the same time talking about people who can't afford food. I think that is where those comments come from. Also the ones from Stop Oil and the amount of products they use that contain oil or derivatives from it such as hair dye, fake nails and even the clothes they wear.
OMG It’s like you read my mind! I am so glad you’re doing this video. I recently saw footage of vegans surrounding a man and screaming at him for eating meat. I was thinking that’s probably the least effective way to create the change they want to make. And then I thought about you, how you’re basically the opposite of this, and was hoping you’d do a video around this type of activism.
This stuff reminds me of peta so much, and peta's shock tactics have pushed more people away from veganism and animal rights than have brought them in. What we need are big crowds doing regular marches and A WHOLE LOT OF EDUCATION OUTREACH. Cause a big chunk of the problem is everyday folks not understanding the impacts of various things or how they can speak out to help change them, or HOW they can vote to help things change. We need to teach people how those things can be achieved and also give them places to speak out and teach others. Pissing people off is a great way to get them to say "fuck you i don't care what your point was", when what we really need is to be loud and in enough numbers that politicians say "oh shit, we need to actually do the thing or these people are gonna [vote us out of power]"
Something about this shock activism is, that it brings out a lot of angered people with a lot of alternative options for what should be done. That itself is a good thing. Thanks for contibuting.
A great video!!! The “don’t question the methods of the ideology you’re apart of” gives me the ick and brings to mind a certain historical mass genocide event…
Hey :) I'm curious if you have read "How to blow up a pipeline" by Andreas Malm? It argues that working with the system might in most ways be insufficient for real radical change. It also introduces the aspect of the "radical flank", which opens up the possibility for the general public to sympathize with the "less radical" parts of a movement and therefore introduce a real opportunity for change. It also questions the problem of vandalism as a "necessary evil", as you said, although in context with possibly less arbitrary targets than throwing food at some art (as in, you guessed it, blowing up pipelines :)). I agree with you on some aspects, and I really did enjoy the video!
The UK gov't response to the Van Gogh souping and Insulate Britain blocking motorways has been to suggest increasing police powers/introducing yet further laws to restrict the ability to protest etc. The sabotage actions of the suffragettes worked because they contradicted society's view of womanhood; the paint thrown on furs made a direct connection between the luxury product and how it is created. Threatening to damage a painting is too disconnected from the subject of the protest, in my view, to be effective. And - especially in a time of food price increases - pouring milk out onto the floor / preventing people from buying it, just makes the protestors appear to be entitled brats (plus there's a likelihood the protestors will be forced to compensate the shop for the stolen/damaged stock... So they're protesting milk consumption by hmmm paying for a load of milk?)
the suffragettes slashed paintings though? And blew up postboxes, and set fire to houses and hay bales etc - would you say that was connected? Just Stop Oil has previously gone directly to the source, blocking oil terminals, but sadly press don't report it enough.
I don't follow news so I didn't know about this. I respect art so much and this was painfull to see. Also wasting food (with milk incident) . Waw. I have to get my mind aroud it. Thank you for this video
I absolutely agree with you. It may be my professional deformation as an ethicist, but sustainability is not a subscription or membership to a movement, it is a personal moral choice. It comes with both a responsibility to weigh the individual actions of yourself and others, and a freedom to do so. You can't simply assume that just because someone shares your ideology, you have to agree with their actions. This means that a) Just because you're striving for a noble goal (i.e. sustainability) doesn't free you from other moral responsibilities. It also means that b) 'the movement' doesn't owe you loyalty when members make immoral choices. Sharing an ideology is great. Having a cause is great, but you don't have the freedom to destroy the world in your pursuit. As Holmes said: your right to swing your fists end where the other man's nose begins.
OMG SO MUCH YES! We have to be able disagree with each other, have different opinions and have conversations without it being “evidence” that we aren’t loyal. Thank you! This is a huge problem in a lot of movements now and it’s scary.
Totally agree with you 💯. All this vandalism and extremism has a deep countereffect on me. If anything it pisses me so off that wants me to make the opposite. And it angers me so much that if I would see someone pouring milk in the supermarket, I would kick their arses off out, instead of just watching. So bad! Thanks for this video my dear! ❤️❣️
Interesting to get your opinion on this and I agree with a lot of your points, especially the practical tips at the end 😊 A big argument I've heard in favour of shock activism is that the softer climate activism has been ignored for the last few decades and also that targeted activism gets ignored (not sure if you saw about the windows being smashed at fossil fuel services company Schlumberger) - so I'd be interested what you think about that. I also think there's a wider context of of what's happening in the UK right now, people are getting more and more desperate about a lot of things, due to the cost of living, political mess etc
I think this needed contextualising to the current UK political situation - in the last year our government has passed two bills (PCSC and Public Order) that criminalise many forms of protest and put severe penalties on protesters. Police now have more powers to arrest protesters. Our democracy is being eroded and activists have to take new tactics. I get that shock activism might “not be it” but acknowledging that protest is being criminalised in the UK is really important to this discourse.
I really like your work and it’s not that I think shock activism (or any activism) shouldn’t be criticised, it’s how we learn and grow as movements - it just felt particularly hard to watch knowing that the “go join other protests” suggestion at the end is actually also becoming criminalised in the UK
I totally agree with Gittemary's analysis! I appreciate that she takes the time to go into nuance about this. I especially appreciate the point about being able to criticize within a movement. I'm in a lot of left-leaning circles and support the ideology, but sometimes people are too quick to dismiss genuine constructive criticism.
Another fantastic video Gittemary and yes being too extreme with protesting regardless the issue can stop people being interested or in the case of veganism activism stop consumers from being vegan.
I said this to a friend recently about this issue - essentially with shock activism there are three types of people. The ones who are doing the activism, who are already converted to the cause; the ones who are wholly against the shock tactics or the cause in general; and the ones who haven't made up their minds about the situation yet. I feel as if the only people who can be convinced to think differently are going to be the ones who haven't made up their minds and I don't think these tactics are effective in doing so. I share the anger, frustration and feelings of powerlessness that many of these activists follow, but i'd rather gently lead by example and encourage stronger communities with mutual aid and care than shaming anyone for supposedly not caring enough. It's a balancing act and a nuanced conversation.
I am so grateful for this video. I consider myself an environmentalist (I am not perfect, I know there is more that I can do, but I am trying) but when I saw this I was angry. I have never really liked shock activism because it made me feel more hopeless. It made me feel like we were pushing people away and It never gave me practical solutions.
I love your channel so much and never miss a video. You helped me so much to actually grow up in the sustanaible movement. Now I‘m 15 and already aware off so many things that go wrong but because of this positive content like yours I never lose hope!!
I just want to say that I think talking to people logically and not trying to go out of your way to destroy property is the best way to get the word across. I honestly was not interested in learning about my impact on the planet a year ago and then I came across one of your videos about how you lived sustainably and I started going down the rabbit hole of slowly learning more and more about what I could do to help out the planet. Now I’m slowly (using up stuff first and then) switching to more low waste products and learning about composting and buying less plastic items in the grocery store. I think in order to make a difference you need to slowly get people like me and others to get interested and see how easy it can be to do your part. I think the people who put the sauce on the painting had good intentions but I think it likely went over the intended audience’s head and ended up being like you mentioned just for people who were already upset.
I think people have to acknowledge the political situation in a different country. Shock activism and intentionally getting arrested activism are different but can often overlap. Things that get people arrested without hurting anyone are often shock activism. Actions that intentionally get people arrested are not helpful in the US because they have a massively inflated police and prison funding so this will not impact the government negatively. In the UK the criminal justice and courts system is on its knees and if so many people get arrested it may crumble and they may have to give in. Case by case always
In some countries, those activists would be thrown into jail under severe punishment which could be a few years at least in jail or even far worse. I always find there's a sense of privilege doing these shock activisms in (specific) western countries as well. Finding a way to change the system by reaching out to the politicians, MPs, your local council, people who has the network reach to get certain systemic changes implemented for the better is more effective. Even if you have to keep trying repeatedly until someone actually listens and takes in your point. Shock or viral activism only lasts long until people forgets about it and moves on. News on social media especially is constantly on the move daily. For example, most people has already moved on from the mona lisa incident... and that happened a few months ago.
@@thechroniclesofkweencoth I see what you mean, that’s why I find the context so important. It’s also why I see people not in the UK have views on this which are quite undeveloped and these conspiracies gittemary mentioned emerge. I find in the polarised UK environment right now the Labour would mostly agree with you, but couldn’t do anything because they’re not in power, while if you had a Tory MP they would ignore you. If Labour were in power this method might be more affective. Any other party isn’t getting elected. The privilege thing is hard because sometimes that logic in terms of environmentalism can lead to people doing nothing, I often hear people say that the talk to your representatives approach is privileged.
An old school friend had a "funeral" for the dead animals at the whole foods deli counter. She got slapped with a $5k bill for destroying product (basically whole foods couldnt resell the meat they threw flowers and stuff on) im a vegetarian but its like now youve wasted the use of the meat AND you have to pay for meat that was thrown out anyway. She could have just sat putside with a poster asking for more plant based foods.
Hi Gittemary! I do understand the frustration and furry of these people who are making this desperate type of activism. I was in this state of mind when I went vegan 8 years ago. Now I am more calm and I no longer hold my breath waiting for people to care and change... I am more focused, patient and empathetic, I'm going for the slow method sort of speak. It is not always easy.
Thank you Gittenary for this important video!! My first thought was also that art gives hope in desperate times, and vandalism against pieces of art that give us common people a glimpse of beauty in our daily life feels just unnecessary.
I get that Just Oil had a message to say, but my biggest concern was that they wasted some good soup that couldve fed four mouths (2 servings per can) but they used it in a wasteful way. I just dont get it.
Thank you for your video. Your explantions make senses a lot. Regarding shock activism/protest, I respect their base philosophy - we have to stop irreversible negative impacts on the earth. However, I won't support their ways of actions, to pay public attention instantly with destroying directly something else. In the case of this attacking Gogh's picture, it ended up safe because no damaging the art itself. However, more escallated, there could be real destruction of or damaging something/somebody else one day. I am concerned if actions based on shock activism can be cause of another hatred and end up making prejudice and disrupption of our collaboratoins to stop climate change.
i.e. In my country Japan, the majority reacts as these actions are regarded just vandalism or terrolism in name of "environmentalism" and have decreased respects toward other environmentalists. Too sad.
I was working with/for Just Stop Oil full time when they first started. They were very passionate and peaceful when we first started. Once they started being destructive and making people angry, I left and have stopped supporting them completely. I just don't think we are going to get anywhere with aggressive behaviour, it just makes people angry and people stop listening once they are angry. They have one leader who controls everything, and that started to make me feel uncomfortable. I still support the movement but Extinction Rebellion is much more in-line with my beliefs. I did all the training and almost gave up my freedom for Just Stop Oil. I am so glad I listened to my gut that was telling me not to throw my life away. I am MUCH more useful to the movement with my freedom, life, and opinions in tact. I love art and targeting art makes me particularly angry.
Thank you so much for this video. This has been the first time since I started Ecoguilty that I have been encourage to remove my content because of thinking different from these activists. Where is freedom of speech here? It has been scary, is this the future that climate activists actually want?
Excellent timing. I have been saying for weeks that all this seems to do in my experience is reflect badly on any important eco issues as people's perception of people who follow a sustainable lifestyle goes down and we are being negatively perceived by the average person on the street.. IMO it does more harm than good to important issues.Extinction Rebellion supergluing themselves to the rooves of tube trains is not going to achieve anything other than peeing off the average person who is trying to get to work to earn money to support their families. No Government or big business is going to change a darn thing because someone has poured some milk on the floor or blocked a road.It doesn't raise awareness. Believe me people know. Big business knows. Governments know. The average person in the street knows. They know by now and they just don't care sadly. The amount of people who have commented to me recently about these middle class wackos as they call them makes me almost ashamed to speak about my views and feelings.
yeah you saying people who care about art and people say they don't care we do just because we don't post constantly everyday about doesn't mean we don't care ive been environmental conscious over the past few years but I study art and so that means I don't care about the world I do we do our best like you said me and my gf are doing our part to learn and protect despite what we take in life which can make us seem we don't care we do thank you for pointing this out gittie
I couldn’t love this video more. Really. So eloquently put, so thoroughly researched, so absolutely shitballs amazing! Basically the only thing I thought right when I saw the event was ‘wellll as if the environmentalist movement wasn’t already bullied enough for being too dramatic, extreme, helpless,… I genuinely want to know what was going through these people’s minds (and all of the previous shock activists). Like do they actually believe this is going to change another person’s mind? Never once did I respect or believe or looked up to a person more *just because* they [literally or figuratively] yelled in my face. And same thing when I overreact.. never once has it had the outcome that I wanted 😅. I can’t feel a lot of empathy in general for people who have to go so drastic to make their point, whatever the point is.. It just makes me sigh and hope that they’ll learn to communicate in a more engaging way.
I also think just stop oil are quite clear that they want oil to be phased out, their goal is that they don’t want more oil being drilled because there is more than enough oil in storage while use of fossil fuels is phased out
Oh absolutely, sorry if I was unclear about this part, while the organisation believes that phasing out fossil fuels is the practical approach, the narrative often circulating in in the population is often if a different character
@@Gittemary yeh fair enough. I think the media is so unfair when talking about any climate activists and people have to be careful and aware so their narrative isn’t twisted. But ultimately none can predict how their words may be twisted. The line where it becomes the activists responsibility to predict what will happen and how to navigate this is hard to draw
@@MADZYISTHEQUEEN while I agree with some aspects here, I believe that it IS the activists’ responsibility to make sure that are communicating efficiently, while you can always twist anyone’s words out of malice, that’s not inherently what’s happing. Many of these activists and organisations care very little about PR, about optics, they only care about the cause, because they are so passionate, which I respect, but any successful business, politician etc will value the optics of their actions, because they’re massively important when winning over the public and how the press talks about you 🌿
Shock activism isn’t in the intent to “destroy” the things “they” value or love (meaning the higher class individuals who have a hand in shaping the world and it’s choices towards the planet), it’s that shock activism pushes away the very people you need on your side. Throwing soup on a multinational beloved artists painting, throwing milk on the floor, chaining yourself to a basketball court, it inconveniences and causes distress to every day people. All that milk was food wasted. The suffering of the cows, the grains, land, and water that went into producing that milk was just wasted. Throwing soup on a painting, even though it was glass, someone had to clean that up. Chaining yourself to a court makes someone have to come get you, remove you, and delays viewers enjoyment of the game. Shock factor doesn’t work because it is MADE to be decisive and to break down Community. It is not constructive, it is destructive.
I'm honestly neither for nor completely against this type of activism. the whole mechanism behind the activism itself and later the way it is reported about in the news is very complex and I feel like a lot of things get pushed back while other less important aspects are foregrounded. but then of course there are many different types of shock activism. in Italy, a few months ago there were activists from a section of ExR going on hunger strikes in front of the ministry for the environment and there were so many people working in there, as well as the actual environmental secretary passing by each day, refusing to talk to these activists - who really just wanted a conversation because the government wasn't/isn't taking any urgent action against climate change - and discrediting them straight away as people who have nothing better to do in their lives and who are just exaggerating. and of course the media portrayed them as such as well, which I think shows what is intrinsically wrong with the reception of this type of activism, i.e., that these people would rather do these desperate acts than hang out with their friends or go to work or whatever. as a consequence of such media portrayal, there is very little empathy being shown from the general public towards these people who are (rightfully so) scared about the future and feel like there are no other options left. it is a cry for attention, yes, but I don't think it should be discredited as such. those people are most likely already doing the most that they can to fight climate action but don't see the same efforts being made by people in power, and I understand why they would go to such extremes. the blame is not so much to be put on them as much as on people in power consciously procrastinating urgent matters. at the same time, I don't think all shock activism is well though out or useful. vegan activists spilling milk in supermarkets is wasteful, dairy farmers spilling milk because they aren't being paid enough for their work and are crushed by taxes and other production costs makes much more sense as they are consciously wasting their own source of income (most likely because their situation is desperate as is in that case, same goes for other types of farmers doing similar things). but I also believe that people who are already in the climate movement can empathise and understand those activists a lot better than people who aren't and are clearly much more prone to following the stream of opinions brought forward by the mainstream media. I'm personally more inclined towards "quiet" activism like putting up flyers or posters and even stickers on places where it could catch a person's attention and think twice about what they are currently doing. another thing that I would add to the part where you mentioned that a dose of narcissism is needed to carry out these types of shocking actions is that political affiliation probably has an impact on it as well. usually the most "extreme" and most shocking types of activism come from people who are reactionary or on the "far" sides - both sides - while more moderate people are less prone to taking part in these things. lastly, as this already is a really long comment already, I absolutely do agree that we should all be able to decide either to take or not to take part in things that make us uncomfortable within a movement or a community (let's just use this as a broader term) and be able to criticise things within them. I've personally been asked by members of FFF why I'm not a part of the movement since I have an Instagram page about sustainability and environmentalism. I simply don't want to be affiliated, especially because our society is based on stereotypes whether we like it or not and people seem not to be able to function unless they're able to put you inside a category. and I personally don't want to be defined just by that one thing as I am a lot more than just that. At the same time I'm also positive that we can make a difference, and that we are making a difference, without necessarily being part of a climate movement simply by making people around us aware about what's going on and what can be done.
Really good points and we'll discussed. I don't agree with this particular style of activism. Yes it has an emotive shock factor but as it is so emotive for so many, pieces of art mean so much, have so much importance to people it doesn't bring out the positive message because people are horrified at something they care about being destroyed it focuses people in the wrong message rather than the metaphor they wanted to express. Respect for the planet is part of our message and that this is beneficial for all of the human race. Doing something so disrespectful is a counter message. It as you says it creates distance. Shock value tactics don't serve the message or the community. It is organisational and institutional change that is neccesary. Education and empowerment for the general population who don't understand consequences of their choices and the importance of the cause. That is where people need to focus their activism. We need to create sustainable change as much as a sustainable planet. Shock tqctis are not in my personal opinion are not sustainable, not representing the cause and not making a positive impact that will create the changes that are neccesary. Publicity stunts like this are rarely if ever good marketing. And changing the system and educating and empower people is in part using marketing techniques that reach people. Let's use the ones that actually work.
thank you for educating us on this, it was really helpful. on a different note: you look stunning, are you doing something to your hair? It's so shiny!
It's not terrorism. It's not even really vandalism. Nothing was really damaged. It was the thought of destroying art that was the crime. It was an art performance. ER does this sort of things a lot. A decade ago it was Greenpeace that was the radical org. Now Greenpeace is just tame like any local organisation. Radicals are cool. Young people need some radicalism. It puts them in the press where they otherwise aren't represented or listened to. A few years ago the Finnish police told the press that they are preparing for 'eco terrorism' to rise. I'm not seeing it coming, but I'm seeing more of this; peaceful shock activism. Trying to shake people. Adults older than 30 are mainly too comfortable, and younger than 30 are too apathetic, already lost their hope because of the lies they realised they have been told their whole lives about countries fighting climate change. We are living with this elephant in the room that's suffocating us. Nobody dares to be the first one to say it's sh*t because everyone knows, and we don't want to be the 'downer'. I'm not into art performance activism, I'm a little too shy and pro society as a scout leader. The other day I was listening to Muse's fairly new song 'Will of the people' and picturing a marching band going through town with placards and singing such songs. I've always liked singing and marching. I think it's pretty fair from those who side with the radicals, to argue, 'do it better yourself if you think we are doing our activism wrong'. Gittemary obviously has a youtube channel and is influencing a lot of people, but a lot of the people who have an opinion about how activism should be done, don't do any kind of activism themselves. They have demands for other people how they should do the things they don't want to do themselves. That's not fair either. In democracy, you can unload sh*t on politicians when you have a problem with what they do with their power and time. Activists, in a sense, don't have any more power than anyone who's criticising them. So please go ahead, and do it better (to anyone who thinks it should be done in a different way). There is not a limited number of activists and hours in their days to do things. Doing activism in the wrong way is not taking up space or time from doing it the right way (unlike in politicians' schedules). Disclaimer: I love art and becoming an artist was my childhood dream. I find it increasingly difficult to make art because it feels insignificant, too indirect to solving an apocalypse. My motivation for making art was to copy the world's beautiful moments and capture them. It's hard to do knowing and watching that that beauty is not going to be there tomorrow. Why deepen the future generations' sorrow by showing them how beautiful the world used to be, before it died?
Have you seen Leena Norms video on the topic? I'd love a response to that, because she makes some really good points and I think a dialogue would be super interesting and enriching.
All great points! I’m not completely against the artwork bit (only because it was not ruined), but I agree it’s not helpful to the movement. I do love the idea of showing what will happen to art and monuments if we continue the path we’re on. Edinburgh Castle now has a blurb about how it’s susceptible to landslides, but I’d like them to do even more (showing, not just telling) with a simulation. Or galleries having an exhibit where these famous artworks are recreated to show how they’d be destroyed by climate change. The actual facilities would need to install these exhibits, but maybe it’s something that activists can try to persuade them to do (as well as breaking away from sponsors like BP). Regarding the milk, I feel more upset by that because of what the cows had to go through. The story that someone else shared here about an activist dumpster diving for the food waste is brilliant!
This reminds me of the people who glued their hands to the counter at Starbucks in order to demand plant milks no longer being an up charge. Um, how about you not patronize the company and make coffee at home or go to a local cafe where plant milk isn’t an added cost? Or collaborate with companies or organizations that share your values. Don’t aim low, go high.
Hey! I love this video, it's really interesting! Another UA-camr I love called Leena Norms talked about this with a different opinion to you, I loved hearing two different opinions on the same topic 😊 I don't really know where I stand on the topic but I'd love to see what you think about her take on the topic 🥰 hope you're all good x
Oh gosh, absolutely not hun. This has sparked a major debate in the Uk. Not so much in terms of front lines climate activism, but in terms of the secondary issue, the Sacklars (ie a dynasty making their money off opiate abuse) Shell oil and BP, both massive fossil fuel companies, are funding most of the large scale fine art exhibitions in the uk, literally wings of museums, and exhibitions at the uks top museums. & I get that from a Danish (ie a country that has far better ethics about such things than we do) perspective this seems totally provocative, but like an exhibition at the science museum in London this year about climate science was sponsored by BP (or something like, I can’t type on here and check sources at the same time sadly) But basically this has sparked a whole debate about what are museums for and who should be funding them. & is it ok the entire museum staff are paid poverty wages yet fossil fuel companies sponsor exhibitions on culturally significant stuff. I get that in a progressive country like yours this seems like attention seeking activism, yet it has raised a really important issue in the uk.
Who is having these conversations though? I have not seen any main stream media coverage that broaches any of the topics you mentioned at all. So I would think that if anyone is having these conversations, it is people already in the movement, who were already having these conversations anyways? Which reinforces the point that the people engaging in this type of activism are "preaching to the choir"/ in an eco chamber. Put differently, anyone outside the movement whom I've talked to about these types of things sees these people only as nuisances who are detrimental to polite society, it does not encourage them to think any further about the issues you mentioned.
I was hoping for a historic disection on shock activism and what it can do in general, I'd really like to understand it better. I think desperation and urgency is exactly what they do want to communicate, it's not as if there aren't more educational conversations already had or as if we didn't know what has to be done - we do, but there's a conflict of interests. I do agree with you that blind solidarity is not a good thing and also kinda misses the point of this, as well as taking pity on them - as you said, there whole point was to make a scene and they knew they'd make a target of themselves. But I was also quite irritated that you kept talking about destroying art - because, as you also said in the disclaimer in the beginning, it wasn't destroyed at all and they knew they wouldn't destroy it. I really liked Leena Norms' video on it: ua-cam.com/video/RJNuJw1_4eo/v-deo.html (and would've hoped to learn even more about it from this video)
This makes me so sad, nearly destroying a painting that is history for shock value will NOT help the envoirment and it certainly won't help change ppls minds.
I think shock activism is counter productive really. I know quite a lot of people who react with some sort of anger to these type of actions and pledge to be even worse 'environmentally'. While I think it's childish to react this way, agressive type of activism, attacks, destroying things for shock value actually create dynamics of us versus them. This type of environmentalists make people believe that it's their cause instead of everyone's issue, because they will criticise how ordinary folks live, they will vandalise art that many hold dearly, cause havoc in coffe shops, supermarkets etc. It puts people off, it is some primary way of reacting as you pointed out, but it is what it is so why people still do it. Unfortunately I think it may be for attention, but narcissistic type of attention, hey look at me 'I'm the most eco person there is' because unless you do this sort of thing, you cannot call yourself an environmentalist. I've noticed that in vegan community as well, if you're just vegan and go about your business, it's not enough, you need to be full time anti-diary, anti-fur, anti- meat industries activist and you need to shout at every person who isn't vegan to stop eating corpses, better yet, you cannot call yourself vegan if you're friends with non-vegans, if your partner isn't vegan and you should disown your own family too. It may not be statistically significant but I've noticed that in my city there was a big hype about veganism in past few years, a lot of vegan/vegetarian eating places have opened up and we've been blessed with so much choice. The main marketing points included how tasty and innovative veganism can be, how much good it can do to your health, how it is more nature and environment friendly way of eating. Recently though, it has shifted to blame games, associating veganism with pseudo science (by vegans themselves), overall more negative marketing and alienating potential customers. A lot of vegan places have shut down in last few months alone (there's obviously recession, inflation, impact of pandemic, war etc that have lead a lot of small business to not being able to sustain their operations so I don't want to make a point that vegan places are exclusively closing down because they all alienate their potential customer base but it's been a shift I've noticed in my local community). I'm not even completely against shock activism, I think it can be done right when it's directed towards right people and appropriate places. Being a nuisance to baristas in your local Starbucks, who are on minimum wage and just trying to go about their day, by gluing yourself to a counter top because oat milk is too expensive is not targeting the right people and just hitting the small folk. Majority of people who will encounter you doing this aren't likely to think 'Right, this was eye opening, from now on, I'm vegan and I shall live in the forest to decrease my carbon footprint'. It'll have no effect or opposite effect to intended because who would like to be associated with this sort of movement. Go and do something like that in Starbucks headquarters, shock us with something while targeting those who actually make the decisions. I can get behind that. Go and be nuisance to big oil industry bosses, I think this could actually make people more sympathetic towards whatever you're trying to convey, at least dynamic created here would be more of us ordinary people Vs rich and powerful. Just my thoughts based on real life observations. I take part in protests that align with my ideals, do what I can in my personal life to be more eco conscious, constantly get educated what else I can do etc but I'm in no way an activist. Do we need activitists - absolutely. Do we need to rethink how we try to advocate for our case - yes.
The key is to shock people without pissing them off so much that you basically guarantee they'll dig into their own position and NEVER agree with you. I 100% disagree with this type of activism. I also dislike peta. A LOT.
Remember, when someone is very loudly saying about freedom of the speech but in the same time they are shutting down all (or majority) criticism about their own initiative, you should be alarmed. For 99,9% the freedom of the speech is not the thing they care for. And I'm saying this as an educated journalist. And no, I don't think the shock activism is helpful.
I also think a lot of people think that freedom of speech means that you can’t be held accountable for whatever you say, like freedom of speech protects you from the government, not accountability from your peers
That's just vandalism, period, who is going to take seriously that type of people. But I disagree with the not food waste comment, yes there is huge waste is supermarkets and restaurants everyday, so aggravating a situation more is dumb, AND for someone who has to sleeep the hunger away during a period of their life, that's serious, that's offensive, maybe our experiences are different and you can't grasp that, which is nice, I don't really want others to have that type of experience, but is deeply offensive and hurtful for me.
Hi, I can absolutely grasp that, I grew up with very limited resources, but I still think that criticising two cans of soup used in the action is the wrong focus in this situation, in my opinion ☺️
@@Gittemary I can see that, but we must add the milk from London and any other of this types of protests and that's where go from clear to dark as we say in my country, besides for people of low means it definitely paint an ugly picture of the movement. Have a great weekend, I love your vids and 2 recipes of yours where a great hit with my family.
@@Vesania3 I definitely think that the events where gallons of milk were wasted are much worse in terms of waste (and the redundant point regarding phasing out animal products while wasting it), I agree that that paints a really ugly picture of the movement. And I am so happy that you and your family liked my recipes ☺️🌿
A lot of your argument here rests on the assertion that art was "destroyed". But it wasn't. It was returned to the gallery the next day, intact. So, if the artwork is fine, and it was merely a way of getting people to consider the loss of everything good and beautiful in this world (of which a beautiful painting is a signifier) what was wrong about the action? I just don't understand how an environmentalist can be offended by this. Its also worth saying that there is evidence that the notion of "activists harm the environmental movement" is flawed, and that even if people do not like an action, or a group, it does not turn them off from the message within. There is at least one research study to indicate this - I'll try and dig it out if anyone is interested. But, basically, the idea that somebody will see someone scream "the world is ending, we're all gonna die if we don't take care of our planet" and respond in spite by buying an SUV or by throwing steaks out the window is obviously flawed. I honestly don't think any form of activism could be actively unhelpful. Maybe not actively helpful, but that's not the argument that people are making. Finally, Just Stop Oil's demand is not to stop oil overnight, it is to stop new fossil fuel licenses being granted by the UK government. When you remember that there are already enough explored reserves to bring us way over the carbon budget for 3C, this is just common sense from an environmental and an economic standpoint. So, it feels like there is a lot of misrepresentation in this video. And its quite dissapointing, really
I also mentioned in the video that the artwork wasn’t destroyed, however the effect of the action remains the same, the messaging is the same. You are well within your right to disagree with the points that’s up to you, but my points regarding this type of activism and it’s effect has very little to do with the painting and everything to do with the optics of how environmentalism is communicated. It’s a nuanced topic, and there is not black and white answer here.
@@Gittemary Thank you for your response! You did indeed mention that, and I'm glad you noted that - not everybody does! But do you not think that the fact that the artwork was not destroyed completely undermines any points that refer explicitly to the destruction of art? Optics is an interesting point, and is something I know JSO will have considered in depth. My own feeling, though, is that they don't really matter as much as we might think they do initially. I also think that "good optics" when it comes to activism are a bit like the "good environmentalist" you refer to - I don't think they exist.
Gittemary Johansen -- The courageous JSO activist duo do need some vegan education--one of the few negative aspects of the NONVIOLENT Vincent Van Gogh "Sunflowers" action is that the Heinz tomato soup was NOT vegan. It was dairy-contaminated "cream of tomato" soup, an indefensible choice. In the US, virtually all tomato soup is vegan, but upon seeing close-up pix, I confirmed that regrettable fact. At least they did not eat the soup. Again, the painting was NOT harmed, and was back on display the same day within hours. This is one of your rare videos that I must strongly disagree with you (another was your most unfortunate sad decision to get tattoos in 2019). You seem to be making excuses mostly here. These activists DID NOT want to take this action--but the politicians, press, and public are still all but ignoring the No. 1 climate crisis/6th mass extinction. It is a waste of time to engage with most of the ignorant science-illiterate masses. I want to see corporate officials imprisoned fore ecocide. Ace teen eco champion, ethical vegan, and superb journalist Greta Thunberg has repeatedly noted we need new media, new politics, new economics, and new society. This action is part of a smorgasbord of approaches. And alas, the vast majority of people vote for anti-environment candidates and do not comprehend GT's admonition that "EVERY election is a CLIMATE election." As an ethical vegan for 30 years as of NYD 2023, and as a science journalist and media historian, who has gladly added some of your videos to the FARM Vegan Videos Web site, I am beyond frustrated and utterly impatient to achieve a vegan world PDQ. I was pleased that a few people did vigorously defend the Just Stop Oil action, with one columnist even surmising that Mr. Van Gogh himself would have applauded the CD. We should have ended our addiction to fossil fuels (and animal products and the military-warfare state) by the late 1970s at the latest, and my logical OCD-Asperger's brain thought we surely would. BTW, I ONLY support peaceful protests--if ever a climate activist committed murder or arson or cussed badly, I WOULD condemn them. BTW, I will compliment you for debunking the super-idiotic conspiracy theory about Big Oil funding XR and JSO. And one parting compliment: thank you for NOT wearing evil nail polish, which should be banned from existence.
Even anti-art is art, and that is why we reject it! It didn't sound too bad until you said "vote", which is pretty much useless because the system isn't designed to "solve" problems in any lasting way. It's built to swing back and forth between polarities. Not voting is better because it demands real transparency, doesn't support a flawed election system, and no matter who wins they are guided towards a specific purpose that will never competently address the issues, if they even do a fragment of what they say at all.
Voting at the most local level is how we start to change the system. Solving the climate crisis requires a million small changes, we can't wait for someone to build the big green earth saving button.
@@Amandoop Voting in cities is redundant, and you'll die having accomplished little to nothing in the end. The only place it might be useful is in rural areas, changing rules regarding how land is utilized, but even then the people running are very rarely "your people".
It's amazing that people who have voted in 10+ elections in their lives still think that voting in any major election is going to accomplish something of lasting value while it's only gradually gotten worse. The major politicians who talk climate change then shut up about it when in office, perhaps because they know things beyond what the pleb populace hears from mainstream science clickbait regarding the issue. It's programmed insanity to continue to do and support something that has never worked. The best thing is to focus on real solutions in your own life while demanding a greater standard that you would be willing to partake in.
Is shock activism helpful or counterproductive? 🌿
In my opinion, theses kind of protests should impact governments and the oil companies, not the general public. A few days ago, a protest closed one of the main bridges in London. These had a massive impact on regular people, the NHS and other valuable services.
These kind of protests generally just foster anger and hate towards the movement instead of getting people to listen
Counterproductive because people who don t care see it as vandalism ...
@@Amandoop yess I soo feel with you... also @Gittemary Johansen I am interested what your thoughts might be on road block actions :)
Interesting that you go into this subject, I have been thinking a lot about what I think of shock activism, and I sometimes think it is quite nuanced what works and what doesn't.... I also speak with quite some people in XR on a regular basis and there are a lot of different voices in this movement - and I think more nuance than you see when you look at the media and reactions within the media on these kinds of stunt.... so much food for thought and too much to specify in one little comment ^^
I do understand that there are people who get completely frustrated by shock activism in general, and I sometimes do too (especially when I really can't see why the action has the form that it does, like with this Van Gogh painting action)...
I think it really depends on who the actions are impacting and if there is a clear communication and a clear correlation between the subject of protest and the act of protest (so that it is clear what the actual goal is and that is has something to do with the form of the action basically :P )
@@Karincl7 I do care and still see it as vandalism, attacking museums or affecting the workers of supermarkets, that it's not doing much really, because lets be real, the owners is going to charge the cost to the workers and managers of the stores, they are not going to lose.
There was an activist who dumpster dive. He took all the food and arranged the fruits and vegetables in a art form. He told people they can take whatever they want. This showed people how much food waste there is in the world. I loved this..... I'm glad the painting was okay. I'm not for the shock value. There are too many things in this world that make me sad. Showing people in a kind way somehow sends out a more powerful message to me than shock value. Thanks
Was that man Rob Greenfield? I loved his dive videos where he would lay all the food out and feed the local community. 💕
I love that! We need more positive activism like this.
Hi Gittemary, I think this is one of your best videos! I really respect your opinion, you are one clever lady! There's a vacancy for Prime minister in the UK, I'd vote for you 😂
If the people wish it 😂
She couldn't do any worse a job than the previous Prime minister's.
If shock activism is about throwing food on paintings it makes me a) feel like people do not appreciate art, b) they bark with no bite, protesting but not setting an example so others would be jealous and happy to adopt and c) they cannot convince me that they care about the environment. On the contrary, I will completely ignore them and continue searching ways to help the environment on my own. Thank you for sharing your opinion Gittemary! It is always a pleasure to watch your videos!
the art is covered by glass so the art is not harmed
The girls who poured the sup did waste food while at the same time talking about people who can't afford food. I think that is where those comments come from. Also the ones from Stop Oil and the amount of products they use that contain oil or derivatives from it such as hair dye, fake nails and even the clothes they wear.
OMG It’s like you read my mind! I am so glad you’re doing this video. I recently saw footage of vegans surrounding a man and screaming at him for eating meat. I was thinking that’s probably the least effective way to create the change they want to make. And then I thought about you, how you’re basically the opposite of this, and was hoping you’d do a video around this type of activism.
I am so happy that you liked the video, and I am happy that there is a huge part of these movements that take other non-hostile approaches 🌿
This stuff reminds me of peta so much, and peta's shock tactics have pushed more people away from veganism and animal rights than have brought them in.
What we need are big crowds doing regular marches and A WHOLE LOT OF EDUCATION OUTREACH. Cause a big chunk of the problem is everyday folks not understanding the impacts of various things or how they can speak out to help change them, or HOW they can vote to help things change. We need to teach people how those things can be achieved and also give them places to speak out and teach others.
Pissing people off is a great way to get them to say "fuck you i don't care what your point was", when what we really need is to be loud and in enough numbers that politicians say "oh shit, we need to actually do the thing or these people are gonna [vote us out of power]"
Something about this shock activism is, that it brings out a lot of angered people with a lot of alternative options for what should be done. That itself is a good thing. Thanks for contibuting.
I'm so happy you brought up the narcissism and alienism aspects of this.
✌️✌️✌️
A great video!!!
The “don’t question the methods of the ideology you’re apart of” gives me the ick and brings to mind a certain historical mass genocide event…
Hey :) I'm curious if you have read "How to blow up a pipeline" by Andreas Malm? It argues that working with the system might in most ways be insufficient for real radical change.
It also introduces the aspect of the "radical flank", which opens up the possibility for the general public to sympathize with the "less radical" parts of a movement and therefore introduce a real opportunity for change.
It also questions the problem of vandalism as a "necessary evil", as you said, although in context with possibly less arbitrary targets than throwing food at some art (as in, you guessed it, blowing up pipelines :)).
I agree with you on some aspects, and I really did enjoy the video!
The UK gov't response to the Van Gogh souping and Insulate Britain blocking motorways has been to suggest increasing police powers/introducing yet further laws to restrict the ability to protest etc.
The sabotage actions of the suffragettes worked because they contradicted society's view of womanhood; the paint thrown on furs made a direct connection between the luxury product and how it is created.
Threatening to damage a painting is too disconnected from the subject of the protest, in my view, to be effective. And - especially in a time of food price increases - pouring milk out onto the floor / preventing people from buying it, just makes the protestors appear to be entitled brats (plus there's a likelihood the protestors will be forced to compensate the shop for the stolen/damaged stock... So they're protesting milk consumption by hmmm paying for a load of milk?)
Agreed about the protest needing to be relevant! 👏 That was my first thought as well
the suffragettes slashed paintings though? And blew up postboxes, and set fire to houses and hay bales etc - would you say that was connected? Just Stop Oil has previously gone directly to the source, blocking oil terminals, but sadly press don't report it enough.
I retract my statement, I actually think that the protest was relevant, thus making my comment irrelevant.
I don't follow news so I didn't know about this. I respect art so much and this was painfull to see. Also wasting food (with milk incident) . Waw. I have to get my mind aroud it. Thank you for this video
I absolutely agree with you. It may be my professional deformation as an ethicist, but sustainability is not a subscription or membership to a movement, it is a personal moral choice. It comes with both a responsibility to weigh the individual actions of yourself and others, and a freedom to do so. You can't simply assume that just because someone shares your ideology, you have to agree with their actions.
This means that a) Just because you're striving for a noble goal (i.e. sustainability) doesn't free you from other moral responsibilities.
It also means that b) 'the movement' doesn't owe you loyalty when members make immoral choices.
Sharing an ideology is great. Having a cause is great, but you don't have the freedom to destroy the world in your pursuit. As Holmes said: your right to swing your fists end where the other man's nose begins.
OMG SO MUCH YES! We have to be able disagree with each other, have different opinions and have conversations without it being “evidence” that we aren’t loyal. Thank you! This is a huge problem in a lot of movements now and it’s scary.
Totally agree with you 💯.
All this vandalism and extremism has a deep countereffect on me. If anything it pisses me so off that wants me to make the opposite. And it angers me so much that if I would see someone pouring milk in the supermarket, I would kick their arses off out, instead of just watching. So bad! Thanks for this video my dear! ❤️❣️
Interesting to get your opinion on this and I agree with a lot of your points, especially the practical tips at the end 😊
A big argument I've heard in favour of shock activism is that the softer climate activism has been ignored for the last few decades and also that targeted activism gets ignored (not sure if you saw about the windows being smashed at fossil fuel services company Schlumberger) - so I'd be interested what you think about that.
I also think there's a wider context of of what's happening in the UK right now, people are getting more and more desperate about a lot of things, due to the cost of living, political mess etc
I think this needed contextualising to the current UK political situation - in the last year our government has passed two bills (PCSC and Public Order) that criminalise many forms of protest and put severe penalties on protesters. Police now have more powers to arrest protesters. Our democracy is being eroded and activists have to take new tactics. I get that shock activism might “not be it” but acknowledging that protest is being criminalised in the UK is really important to this discourse.
I really like your work and it’s not that I think shock activism (or any activism) shouldn’t be criticised, it’s how we learn and grow as movements - it just felt particularly hard to watch knowing that the “go join other protests” suggestion at the end is actually also becoming criminalised in the UK
I totally agree with Gittemary's analysis! I appreciate that she takes the time to go into nuance about this. I especially appreciate the point about being able to criticize within a movement. I'm in a lot of left-leaning circles and support the ideology, but sometimes people are too quick to dismiss genuine constructive criticism.
Another fantastic video Gittemary and yes being too extreme with protesting regardless the issue can stop people being interested or in the case of veganism activism stop consumers from being vegan.
I said this to a friend recently about this issue - essentially with shock activism there are three types of people. The ones who are doing the activism, who are already converted to the cause; the ones who are wholly against the shock tactics or the cause in general; and the ones who haven't made up their minds about the situation yet. I feel as if the only people who can be convinced to think differently are going to be the ones who haven't made up their minds and I don't think these tactics are effective in doing so. I share the anger, frustration and feelings of powerlessness that many of these activists follow, but i'd rather gently lead by example and encourage stronger communities with mutual aid and care than shaming anyone for supposedly not caring enough. It's a balancing act and a nuanced conversation.
I am so grateful for this video. I consider myself an environmentalist (I am not perfect, I know there is more that I can do, but I am trying) but when I saw this I was angry. I have never really liked shock activism because it made me feel more hopeless. It made me feel like we were pushing people away and It never gave me practical solutions.
This was perfectly said. Definitely one of your best videos. Thank you for this ❤
I am so glad you did this video. This is so important and I was having this exact conversation yesterday. Thank you 🙌
I love your channel so much and never miss a video. You helped me so much to actually grow up in the sustanaible movement. Now I‘m 15 and already aware off so many things that go wrong but because of this positive content like yours I never lose hope!!
I just want to say that I think talking to people logically and not trying to go out of your way to destroy property is the best way to get the word across. I honestly was not interested in learning about my impact on the planet a year ago and then I came across one of your videos about how you lived sustainably and I started going down the rabbit hole of slowly learning more and more about what I could do to help out the planet. Now I’m slowly (using up stuff first and then) switching to more low waste products and learning about composting and buying less plastic items in the grocery store.
I think in order to make a difference you need to slowly get people like me and others to get interested and see how easy it can be to do your part. I think the people who put the sauce on the painting had good intentions but I think it likely went over the intended audience’s head and ended up being like you mentioned just for people who were already upset.
I think people have to acknowledge the political situation in a different country. Shock activism and intentionally getting arrested activism are different but can often overlap. Things that get people arrested without hurting anyone are often shock activism. Actions that intentionally get people arrested are not helpful in the US because they have a massively inflated police and prison funding so this will not impact the government negatively. In the UK the criminal justice and courts system is on its knees and if so many people get arrested it may crumble and they may have to give in. Case by case always
In some countries, those activists would be thrown into jail under severe punishment which could be a few years at least in jail or even far worse. I always find there's a sense of privilege doing these shock activisms in (specific) western countries as well. Finding a way to change the system by reaching out to the politicians, MPs, your local council, people who has the network reach to get certain systemic changes implemented for the better is more effective. Even if you have to keep trying repeatedly until someone actually listens and takes in your point.
Shock or viral activism only lasts long until people forgets about it and moves on. News on social media especially is constantly on the move daily. For example, most people has already moved on from the mona lisa incident... and that happened a few months ago.
@@thechroniclesofkweencoth I see what you mean, that’s why I find the context so important. It’s also why I see people not in the UK have views on this which are quite undeveloped and these conspiracies gittemary mentioned emerge. I find in the polarised UK environment right now the Labour would mostly agree with you, but couldn’t do anything because they’re not in power, while if you had a Tory MP they would ignore you. If Labour were in power this method might be more affective. Any other party isn’t getting elected. The privilege thing is hard because sometimes that logic in terms of environmentalism can lead to people doing nothing, I often hear people say that the talk to your representatives approach is privileged.
An old school friend had a "funeral" for the dead animals at the whole foods deli counter. She got slapped with a $5k bill for destroying product (basically whole foods couldnt resell the meat they threw flowers and stuff on) im a vegetarian but its like now youve wasted the use of the meat AND you have to pay for meat that was thrown out anyway. She could have just sat putside with a poster asking for more plant based foods.
That also seems like very counterproductive activism
Hi Gittemary! I do understand the frustration and furry of these people who are making this desperate type of activism. I was in this state of mind when I went vegan 8 years ago. Now I am more calm and I no longer hold my breath waiting for people to care and change... I am more focused, patient and empathetic, I'm going for the slow method sort of speak. It is not always easy.
When it comes to climate change we don't have time for the slow method. We really really don't.
Thank you Gittenary for this important video!!
My first thought was also that art gives hope in desperate times, and vandalism against pieces of art that give us common people a glimpse of beauty in our daily life feels just unnecessary.
I get that Just Oil had a message to say, but my biggest concern was that they wasted some good soup that couldve fed four mouths (2 servings per can) but they used it in a wasteful way. I just dont get it.
Thank you for commenting on this subject, your insight was actually really interesting to listen to. Absolutely loved this video. xx
Thank you for your video. Your explantions make senses a lot. Regarding shock activism/protest, I respect their base philosophy - we have to stop irreversible negative impacts on the earth. However, I won't support their ways of actions, to pay public attention instantly with destroying directly something else.
In the case of this attacking Gogh's picture, it ended up safe because no damaging the art itself. However, more escallated, there could be real destruction of or damaging something/somebody else one day.
I am concerned if actions based on shock activism can be cause of another hatred and end up making prejudice and disrupption of our collaboratoins to stop climate change.
i.e. In my country Japan, the majority reacts as these actions are regarded just vandalism or terrolism in name of "environmentalism" and have decreased respects toward other environmentalists. Too sad.
I was working with/for Just Stop Oil full time when they first started. They were very passionate and peaceful when we first started. Once they started being destructive and making people angry, I left and have stopped supporting them completely. I just don't think we are going to get anywhere with aggressive behaviour, it just makes people angry and people stop listening once they are angry.
They have one leader who controls everything, and that started to make me feel uncomfortable.
I still support the movement but Extinction Rebellion is much more in-line with my beliefs.
I did all the training and almost gave up my freedom for Just Stop Oil. I am so glad I listened to my gut that was telling me not to throw my life away. I am MUCH more useful to the movement with my freedom, life, and opinions in tact.
I love art and targeting art makes me particularly angry.
A wonderful conversation and analysis thanks Gittamary!
Thank you so much for this video. This has been the first time since I started Ecoguilty that I have been encourage to remove my content because of thinking different from these activists. Where is freedom of speech here? It has been scary, is this the future that climate activists actually want?
Excellent timing. I have been saying for weeks that all this seems to do in my experience is reflect badly on any important eco issues as people's perception of people who follow a sustainable lifestyle goes down and we are being negatively perceived by the average person on the street.. IMO it does more harm than good to important issues.Extinction Rebellion supergluing themselves to the rooves of tube trains is not going to achieve anything other than peeing off the average person who is trying to get to work to earn money to support their families. No Government or big business is going to change a darn thing because someone has poured some milk on the floor or blocked a road.It doesn't raise awareness. Believe me people know. Big business knows. Governments know. The average person in the street knows. They know by now and they just don't care sadly. The amount of people who have commented to me recently about these middle class wackos as they call them makes me almost ashamed to speak about my views and feelings.
Thank you so much for addressing this subject , especially the way you did. I couldn't agree more. Love your channel, thanks for everything you post !
yeah you saying people who care about art and people say they don't care we do just because we don't post constantly everyday about doesn't mean we don't care ive been environmental conscious over the past few years but I study art and so that means I don't care about the world I do we do our best like you said me and my gf are doing our part to learn and protect despite what we take in life which can make us seem we don't care we do thank you for pointing this out gittie
I couldn’t love this video more. Really. So eloquently put, so thoroughly researched, so absolutely shitballs amazing!
Basically the only thing I thought right when I saw the event was ‘wellll as if the environmentalist movement wasn’t already bullied enough for being too dramatic, extreme, helpless,… I genuinely want to know what was going through these people’s minds (and all of the previous shock activists). Like do they actually believe this is going to change another person’s mind? Never once did I respect or believe or looked up to a person more *just because* they [literally or figuratively] yelled in my face. And same thing when I overreact.. never once has it had the outcome that I wanted 😅.
I can’t feel a lot of empathy in general for people who have to go so drastic to make their point, whatever the point is.. It just makes me sigh and hope that they’ll learn to communicate in a more engaging way.
Yes, spend the energy finding a solution!!!
We have the solutions - governments just aren't implementing them.
I also think just stop oil are quite clear that they want oil to be phased out, their goal is that they don’t want more oil being drilled because there is more than enough oil in storage while use of fossil fuels is phased out
Oh absolutely, sorry if I was unclear about this part, while the organisation believes that phasing out fossil fuels is the practical approach, the narrative often circulating in in the population is often if a different character
But what has that got to do with art?
@@Gittemary yeh fair enough. I think the media is so unfair when talking about any climate activists and people have to be careful and aware so their narrative isn’t twisted. But ultimately none can predict how their words may be twisted. The line where it becomes the activists responsibility to predict what will happen and how to navigate this is hard to draw
@@pheart2381 watch the video, the very first chapter is about why art was included in the messaging
@@MADZYISTHEQUEEN while I agree with some aspects here, I believe that it IS the activists’ responsibility to make sure that are communicating efficiently, while you can always twist anyone’s words out of malice, that’s not inherently what’s happing. Many of these activists and organisations care very little about PR, about optics, they only care about the cause, because they are so passionate, which I respect, but any successful business, politician etc will value the optics of their actions, because they’re massively important when winning over the public and how the press talks about you 🌿
Thank you so much for the video. I really appreciate that somebody is talking about it. :)
Lots of love
Shock activism isn’t in the intent to “destroy” the things “they” value or love (meaning the higher class individuals who have a hand in shaping the world and it’s choices towards the planet), it’s that shock activism pushes away the very people you need on your side. Throwing soup on a multinational beloved artists painting, throwing milk on the floor, chaining yourself to a basketball court, it inconveniences and causes distress to every day people. All that milk was food wasted. The suffering of the cows, the grains, land, and water that went into producing that milk was just wasted. Throwing soup on a painting, even though it was glass, someone had to clean that up. Chaining yourself to a court makes someone have to come get you, remove you, and delays viewers enjoyment of the game. Shock factor doesn’t work because it is MADE to be decisive and to break down Community. It is not constructive, it is destructive.
I'm honestly neither for nor completely against this type of activism. the whole mechanism behind the activism itself and later the way it is reported about in the news is very complex and I feel like a lot of things get pushed back while other less important aspects are foregrounded. but then of course there are many different types of shock activism. in Italy, a few months ago there were activists from a section of ExR going on hunger strikes in front of the ministry for the environment and there were so many people working in there, as well as the actual environmental secretary passing by each day, refusing to talk to these activists - who really just wanted a conversation because the government wasn't/isn't taking any urgent action against climate change - and discrediting them straight away as people who have nothing better to do in their lives and who are just exaggerating. and of course the media portrayed them as such as well, which I think shows what is intrinsically wrong with the reception of this type of activism, i.e., that these people would rather do these desperate acts than hang out with their friends or go to work or whatever. as a consequence of such media portrayal, there is very little empathy being shown from the general public towards these people who are (rightfully so) scared about the future and feel like there are no other options left. it is a cry for attention, yes, but I don't think it should be discredited as such. those people are most likely already doing the most that they can to fight climate action but don't see the same efforts being made by people in power, and I understand why they would go to such extremes. the blame is not so much to be put on them as much as on people in power consciously procrastinating urgent matters. at the same time, I don't think all shock activism is well though out or useful. vegan activists spilling milk in supermarkets is wasteful, dairy farmers spilling milk because they aren't being paid enough for their work and are crushed by taxes and other production costs makes much more sense as they are consciously wasting their own source of income (most likely because their situation is desperate as is in that case, same goes for other types of farmers doing similar things). but I also believe that people who are already in the climate movement can empathise and understand those activists a lot better than people who aren't and are clearly much more prone to following the stream of opinions brought forward by the mainstream media. I'm personally more inclined towards "quiet" activism like putting up flyers or posters and even stickers on places where it could catch a person's attention and think twice about what they are currently doing.
another thing that I would add to the part where you mentioned that a dose of narcissism is needed to carry out these types of shocking actions is that political affiliation probably has an impact on it as well. usually the most "extreme" and most shocking types of activism come from people who are reactionary or on the "far" sides - both sides - while more moderate people are less prone to taking part in these things.
lastly, as this already is a really long comment already, I absolutely do agree that we should all be able to decide either to take or not to take part in things that make us uncomfortable within a movement or a community (let's just use this as a broader term) and be able to criticise things within them. I've personally been asked by members of FFF why I'm not a part of the movement since I have an Instagram page about sustainability and environmentalism. I simply don't want to be affiliated, especially because our society is based on stereotypes whether we like it or not and people seem not to be able to function unless they're able to put you inside a category. and I personally don't want to be defined just by that one thing as I am a lot more than just that. At the same time I'm also positive that we can make a difference, and that we are making a difference, without necessarily being part of a climate movement simply by making people around us aware about what's going on and what can be done.
Such an important topic to discuss! You do such a good job with it
Really good points and we'll discussed. I don't agree with this particular style of activism. Yes it has an emotive shock factor but as it is so emotive for so many, pieces of art mean so much, have so much importance to people it doesn't bring out the positive message because people are horrified at something they care about being destroyed it focuses people in the wrong message rather than the metaphor they wanted to express. Respect for the planet is part of our message and that this is beneficial for all of the human race. Doing something so disrespectful is a counter message. It as you says it creates distance. Shock value tactics don't serve the message or the community. It is organisational and institutional change that is neccesary. Education and empowerment for the general population who don't understand consequences of their choices and the importance of the cause. That is where people need to focus their activism. We need to create sustainable change as much as a sustainable planet. Shock tqctis are not in my personal opinion are not sustainable, not representing the cause and not making a positive impact that will create the changes that are neccesary. Publicity stunts like this are rarely if ever good marketing. And changing the system and educating and empower people is in part using marketing techniques that reach people. Let's use the ones that actually work.
thank you for educating us on this, it was really helpful.
on a different note: you look stunning, are you doing something to your hair? It's so shiny!
I really appreciate this video. So much good information that I agree with. Thank you for sharing!
Can u please do ...what u wear a week know u done this but I love ur style ❤️....hope ur having a great day....
Good morning happy Friday lol 🤗 and thank you for your video 😃🎃
It's not terrorism. It's not even really vandalism. Nothing was really damaged. It was the thought of destroying art that was the crime. It was an art performance. ER does this sort of things a lot. A decade ago it was Greenpeace that was the radical org. Now Greenpeace is just tame like any local organisation.
Radicals are cool. Young people need some radicalism. It puts them in the press where they otherwise aren't represented or listened to.
A few years ago the Finnish police told the press that they are preparing for 'eco terrorism' to rise. I'm not seeing it coming, but I'm seeing more of this; peaceful shock activism. Trying to shake people. Adults older than 30 are mainly too comfortable, and younger than 30 are too apathetic, already lost their hope because of the lies they realised they have been told their whole lives about countries fighting climate change. We are living with this elephant in the room that's suffocating us. Nobody dares to be the first one to say it's sh*t because everyone knows, and we don't want to be the 'downer'.
I'm not into art performance activism, I'm a little too shy and pro society as a scout leader. The other day I was listening to Muse's fairly new song 'Will of the people' and picturing a marching band going through town with placards and singing such songs. I've always liked singing and marching. I think it's pretty fair from those who side with the radicals, to argue, 'do it better yourself if you think we are doing our activism wrong'. Gittemary obviously has a youtube channel and is influencing a lot of people, but a lot of the people who have an opinion about how activism should be done, don't do any kind of activism themselves. They have demands for other people how they should do the things they don't want to do themselves. That's not fair either. In democracy, you can unload sh*t on politicians when you have a problem with what they do with their power and time. Activists, in a sense, don't have any more power than anyone who's criticising them. So please go ahead, and do it better (to anyone who thinks it should be done in a different way). There is not a limited number of activists and hours in their days to do things. Doing activism in the wrong way is not taking up space or time from doing it the right way (unlike in politicians' schedules).
Disclaimer: I love art and becoming an artist was my childhood dream. I find it increasingly difficult to make art because it feels insignificant, too indirect to solving an apocalypse. My motivation for making art was to copy the world's beautiful moments and capture them. It's hard to do knowing and watching that that beauty is not going to be there tomorrow. Why deepen the future generations' sorrow by showing them how beautiful the world used to be, before it died?
I agree 100%
Have you seen Leena Norms video on the topic? I'd love a response to that, because she makes some really good points and I think a dialogue would be super interesting and enriching.
I keep on wondering that in 100 years if we'll look on these people as heros as we now do the suffragettes.
I hope we do
All great points! I’m not completely against the artwork bit (only because it was not ruined), but I agree it’s not helpful to the movement.
I do love the idea of showing what will happen to art and monuments if we continue the path we’re on. Edinburgh Castle now has a blurb about how it’s susceptible to landslides, but I’d like them to do even more (showing, not just telling) with a simulation. Or galleries having an exhibit where these famous artworks are recreated to show how they’d be destroyed by climate change. The actual facilities would need to install these exhibits, but maybe it’s something that activists can try to persuade them to do (as well as breaking away from sponsors like BP).
Regarding the milk, I feel more upset by that because of what the cows had to go through. The story that someone else shared here about an activist dumpster diving for the food waste is brilliant!
This reminds me of the people who glued their hands to the counter at Starbucks in order to demand plant milks no longer being an up charge. Um, how about you not patronize the company and make coffee at home or go to a local cafe where plant milk isn’t an added cost? Or collaborate with companies or organizations that share your values. Don’t aim low, go high.
What a great video!
Hey! I love this video, it's really interesting! Another UA-camr I love called Leena Norms talked about this with a different opinion to you, I loved hearing two different opinions on the same topic 😊 I don't really know where I stand on the topic but I'd love to see what you think about her take on the topic 🥰 hope you're all good x
Oh gosh, absolutely not hun. This has sparked a major debate in the Uk. Not so much in terms of front lines climate activism, but in terms of the secondary issue, the Sacklars (ie a dynasty making their money off opiate abuse) Shell oil and BP, both massive fossil fuel companies, are funding most of the large scale fine art exhibitions in the uk, literally wings of museums, and exhibitions at the uks top museums. & I get that from a Danish (ie a country that has far better ethics about such things than we do) perspective this seems totally provocative, but like an exhibition at the science museum in London this year about climate science was sponsored by BP (or something like, I can’t type on here and check sources at the same time sadly)
But basically this has sparked a whole debate about what are museums for and who should be funding them. & is it ok the entire museum staff are paid poverty wages yet fossil fuel companies sponsor exhibitions on culturally significant stuff.
I get that in a progressive country like yours this seems like attention seeking activism, yet it has raised a really important issue in the uk.
Who is having these conversations though? I have not seen any main stream media coverage that broaches any of the topics you mentioned at all. So I would think that if anyone is having these conversations, it is people already in the movement, who were already having these conversations anyways? Which reinforces the point that the people engaging in this type of activism are "preaching to the choir"/ in an eco chamber. Put differently, anyone outside the movement whom I've talked to about these types of things sees these people only as nuisances who are detrimental to polite society, it does not encourage them to think any further about the issues you mentioned.
I was hoping for a historic disection on shock activism and what it can do in general, I'd really like to understand it better. I think desperation and urgency is exactly what they do want to communicate, it's not as if there aren't more educational conversations already had or as if we didn't know what has to be done - we do, but there's a conflict of interests. I do agree with you that blind solidarity is not a good thing and also kinda misses the point of this, as well as taking pity on them - as you said, there whole point was to make a scene and they knew they'd make a target of themselves. But I was also quite irritated that you kept talking about destroying art - because, as you also said in the disclaimer in the beginning, it wasn't destroyed at all and they knew they wouldn't destroy it.
I really liked Leena Norms' video on it: ua-cam.com/video/RJNuJw1_4eo/v-deo.html (and would've hoped to learn even more about it from this video)
Any type of vandalism is a big no no!!!😣
Clicked on this so fast!
💚🌿
This makes me so sad, nearly destroying a painting that is history for shock value will NOT help the envoirment and it certainly won't help change ppls minds.
I think shock activism is counter productive really. I know quite a lot of people who react with some sort of anger to these type of actions and pledge to be even worse 'environmentally'. While I think it's childish to react this way, agressive type of activism, attacks, destroying things for shock value actually create dynamics of us versus them. This type of environmentalists make people believe that it's their cause instead of everyone's issue, because they will criticise how ordinary folks live, they will vandalise art that many hold dearly, cause havoc in coffe shops, supermarkets etc. It puts people off, it is some primary way of reacting as you pointed out, but it is what it is so why people still do it. Unfortunately I think it may be for attention, but narcissistic type of attention, hey look at me 'I'm the most eco person there is' because unless you do this sort of thing, you cannot call yourself an environmentalist. I've noticed that in vegan community as well, if you're just vegan and go about your business, it's not enough, you need to be full time anti-diary, anti-fur, anti- meat industries activist and you need to shout at every person who isn't vegan to stop eating corpses, better yet, you cannot call yourself vegan if you're friends with non-vegans, if your partner isn't vegan and you should disown your own family too. It may not be statistically significant but I've noticed that in my city there was a big hype about veganism in past few years, a lot of vegan/vegetarian eating places have opened up and we've been blessed with so much choice. The main marketing points included how tasty and innovative veganism can be, how much good it can do to your health, how it is more nature and environment friendly way of eating. Recently though, it has shifted to blame games, associating veganism with pseudo science (by vegans themselves), overall more negative marketing and alienating potential customers. A lot of vegan places have shut down in last few months alone (there's obviously recession, inflation, impact of pandemic, war etc that have lead a lot of small business to not being able to sustain their operations so I don't want to make a point that vegan places are exclusively closing down because they all alienate their potential customer base but it's been a shift I've noticed in my local community).
I'm not even completely against shock activism, I think it can be done right when it's directed towards right people and appropriate places. Being a nuisance to baristas in your local Starbucks, who are on minimum wage and just trying to go about their day, by gluing yourself to a counter top because oat milk is too expensive is not targeting the right people and just hitting the small folk. Majority of people who will encounter you doing this aren't likely to think 'Right, this was eye opening, from now on, I'm vegan and I shall live in the forest to decrease my carbon footprint'. It'll have no effect or opposite effect to intended because who would like to be associated with this sort of movement. Go and do something like that in Starbucks headquarters, shock us with something while targeting those who actually make the decisions. I can get behind that. Go and be nuisance to big oil industry bosses, I think this could actually make people more sympathetic towards whatever you're trying to convey, at least dynamic created here would be more of us ordinary people Vs rich and powerful.
Just my thoughts based on real life observations. I take part in protests that align with my ideals, do what I can in my personal life to be more eco conscious, constantly get educated what else I can do etc but I'm in no way an activist. Do we need activitists - absolutely. Do we need to rethink how we try to advocate for our case - yes.
When you trigger someone else's defensive mechanisms, they can no longer hear what you're saying. It's as simple as that.
THIS ISNT RELATED TO THE VIDEO BUT YOU HAVE BEAUTIFUL EYEBROWS 😭😭 I'm so sorry I just had to say that 😭🎀
Aw thank you ☺️💕
Yasss, girl!
The key is to shock people without pissing them off so much that you basically guarantee they'll dig into their own position and NEVER agree with you. I 100% disagree with this type of activism. I also dislike peta. A LOT.
Remember, when someone is very loudly saying about freedom of the speech but in the same time they are shutting down all (or majority) criticism about their own initiative, you should be alarmed. For 99,9% the freedom of the speech is not the thing they care for. And I'm saying this as an educated journalist.
And no, I don't think the shock activism is helpful.
I also think a lot of people think that freedom of speech means that you can’t be held accountable for whatever you say, like freedom of speech protects you from the government, not accountability from your peers
That's just vandalism, period, who is going to take seriously that type of people. But I disagree with the not food waste comment, yes there is huge waste is supermarkets and restaurants everyday, so aggravating a situation more is dumb, AND for someone who has to sleeep the hunger away during a period of their life, that's serious, that's offensive, maybe our experiences are different and you can't grasp that, which is nice, I don't really want others to have that type of experience, but is deeply offensive and hurtful for me.
Hi, I can absolutely grasp that, I grew up with very limited resources, but I still think that criticising two cans of soup used in the action is the wrong focus in this situation, in my opinion ☺️
@@Gittemary I can see that, but we must add the milk from London and any other of this types of protests and that's where go from clear to dark as we say in my country, besides for people of low means it definitely paint an ugly picture of the movement. Have a great weekend, I love your vids and 2 recipes of yours where a great hit with my family.
@@Vesania3 I definitely think that the events where gallons of milk were wasted are much worse in terms of waste (and the redundant point regarding phasing out animal products while wasting it), I agree that that paints a really ugly picture of the movement. And I am so happy that you and your family liked my recipes ☺️🌿
A lot of your argument here rests on the assertion that art was "destroyed". But it wasn't. It was returned to the gallery the next day, intact. So, if the artwork is fine, and it was merely a way of getting people to consider the loss of everything good and beautiful in this world (of which a beautiful painting is a signifier) what was wrong about the action? I just don't understand how an environmentalist can be offended by this.
Its also worth saying that there is evidence that the notion of "activists harm the environmental movement" is flawed, and that even if people do not like an action, or a group, it does not turn them off from the message within. There is at least one research study to indicate this - I'll try and dig it out if anyone is interested. But, basically, the idea that somebody will see someone scream "the world is ending, we're all gonna die if we don't take care of our planet" and respond in spite by buying an SUV or by throwing steaks out the window is obviously flawed. I honestly don't think any form of activism could be actively unhelpful. Maybe not actively helpful, but that's not the argument that people are making.
Finally, Just Stop Oil's demand is not to stop oil overnight, it is to stop new fossil fuel licenses being granted by the UK government. When you remember that there are already enough explored reserves to bring us way over the carbon budget for 3C, this is just common sense from an environmental and an economic standpoint.
So, it feels like there is a lot of misrepresentation in this video. And its quite dissapointing, really
I also mentioned in the video that the artwork wasn’t destroyed, however the effect of the action remains the same, the messaging is the same. You are well within your right to disagree with the points that’s up to you, but my points regarding this type of activism and it’s effect has very little to do with the painting and everything to do with the optics of how environmentalism is communicated. It’s a nuanced topic, and there is not black and white answer here.
@@Gittemary Thank you for your response! You did indeed mention that, and I'm glad you noted that - not everybody does!
But do you not think that the fact that the artwork was not destroyed completely undermines any points that refer explicitly to the destruction of art?
Optics is an interesting point, and is something I know JSO will have considered in depth. My own feeling, though, is that they don't really matter as much as we might think they do initially. I also think that "good optics" when it comes to activism are a bit like the "good environmentalist" you refer to - I don't think they exist.
I would love to read that research study, if you can find it :) I am curious to see what (different) researchers have to say about this topic.
van Gogh didn't deserve this bro.. 🥲
Vincent 🥲
Shock activism does not make sense it destroys the movement all together
I don’t like what they did but I agree it’s just a stupid painting
Idk i think it's funny
Gittemary Johansen -- The courageous JSO activist duo do need some vegan education--one of the few negative aspects of the NONVIOLENT Vincent Van Gogh "Sunflowers" action is that the Heinz tomato soup was NOT vegan. It was dairy-contaminated "cream of tomato" soup, an indefensible choice. In the US, virtually all tomato soup is vegan, but upon seeing close-up pix, I confirmed that regrettable fact. At least they did not eat the soup. Again, the painting was NOT harmed, and was back on display the same day within hours. This is one of your rare videos that I must strongly disagree with you (another was your most unfortunate sad decision to get tattoos in 2019). You seem to be making excuses mostly here. These activists DID NOT want to take this action--but the politicians, press, and public are still all but ignoring the No. 1 climate crisis/6th mass extinction. It is a waste of time to engage with most of the ignorant science-illiterate masses. I want to see corporate officials imprisoned fore ecocide. Ace teen eco champion, ethical vegan, and superb journalist Greta Thunberg has repeatedly noted we need new media, new politics, new economics, and new society. This action is part of a smorgasbord of approaches. And alas, the vast majority of people vote for anti-environment candidates and do not comprehend GT's admonition that "EVERY election is a CLIMATE election." As an ethical vegan for 30 years as of NYD 2023, and as a science journalist and media historian, who has gladly added some of your videos to the FARM Vegan Videos Web site, I am beyond frustrated and utterly impatient to achieve a vegan world PDQ. I was pleased that a few people did vigorously defend the Just Stop Oil action, with one columnist even surmising that Mr. Van Gogh himself would have applauded the CD. We should have ended our addiction to fossil fuels (and animal products and the military-warfare state) by the late 1970s at the latest, and my logical OCD-Asperger's brain thought we surely would. BTW, I ONLY support peaceful protests--if ever a climate activist committed murder or arson or cussed badly, I WOULD condemn them. BTW, I will compliment you for debunking the super-idiotic conspiracy theory about Big Oil funding XR and JSO. And one parting compliment: thank you for NOT wearing evil nail polish, which should be banned from existence.
Even anti-art is art, and that is why we reject it!
It didn't sound too bad until you said "vote", which is pretty much useless because the system isn't designed to "solve" problems in any lasting way. It's built to swing back and forth between polarities. Not voting is better because it demands real transparency, doesn't support a flawed election system, and no matter who wins they are guided towards a specific purpose that will never competently address the issues, if they even do a fragment of what they say at all.
Voting at the most local level is how we start to change the system.
Solving the climate crisis requires a million small changes, we can't wait for someone to build the big green earth saving button.
That s giving up ..
If voting is "pretty much useless", not voting is 100% useless.
@@Amandoop Voting in cities is redundant, and you'll die having accomplished little to nothing in the end. The only place it might be useful is in rural areas, changing rules regarding how land is utilized, but even then the people running are very rarely "your people".
It's amazing that people who have voted in 10+ elections in their lives still think that voting in any major election is going to accomplish something of lasting value while it's only gradually gotten worse. The major politicians who talk climate change then shut up about it when in office, perhaps because they know things beyond what the pleb populace hears from mainstream science clickbait regarding the issue.
It's programmed insanity to continue to do and support something that has never worked. The best thing is to focus on real solutions in your own life while demanding a greater standard that you would be willing to partake in.
So important !