As a golf instructor myself I get my students to roll their left forearm in the backswing like you mentioned in the video. However, a lot of them struggle, but its a very good point you made about having the left forearm 'pre-set' in that position. Never thought of that. Many thanx and keep up the good work.
When I worked my way through Hogan’s Five Lessons book with an old blade 7 iron I realized the secret to correct hinging of the trail arm is the proper use of the Vardon grip which will literally force the trail arm to fold elbow down which is what give it the leverage to control the force generated by the club head. That’s easily seen by swinging the club in one hand: you can get a lot of power swing it with just the lead arm but not much control - the direction of the toe tends to steer and control swing plane like the rudder of a ship as it swings because the arm rotates and pronates/supinates so freely at the shoulder joint. The folding down of the trail arm prevents pronation but only if grip is established with the ulna and radius of both forearms in the middle of their 180° range of pronation / supination. I discovered this myself one day out by rotating the club as far forward in front of me with just my lead hand forcing the elbow done and into my body and lead arm into external rotation maxing out the travel of my wrist and elbow joint of the lead arm THEN placing my trail hand on top in the Vardon grip. It was the first time in my life I felt comfortable getting my trail hand thumb pad up over the lead thumb. When I bent over and the club swung down straighten my arms my forearms twisted inward against each other not in an opposite “wringing towel” action as illustrated in Hogan’s book. The illustrator got that wrong! The counter rotating in my forearm made them feel like twisted steel cables and I started hitting shots 20 yards further and much straighter because it took all the slack out of arm triangle and grip and FORCED my trail arm down properly in the backswing so it reconnected properly in the downswing. Analyzing what happened I realized that by starting maxed out forward in external rotating of the lead arm then adding trail hand back down at address both forearms wound up in the middle of their range of supination / pronation and that was the key to the trail and lead arms folding action being a mirror image in the back swing and finish. The key was the overlap of the thumbs that allows the wrists to turn over like a hinge pin on gate controlling the path of the hands and club head and keeping the force from pulling hands further away from the body and outside the ball like a lead arm only swing of the club will do. I realized I had been using the Vardon grip incorrectly because I grounded club then gripped it. My trail hand had been too low and the separation made the butt end of the club and hands swing in an arc pulled away from body as it turned over. I realized that’s why I had been slicing the ball - club head moving outside center on the ball then being reflexively steered back down the target line setting up pull-slice. I with my new grip technique I started hitting draws and miss hitting with snap hooks because of the way my wrists seemed to lock up just before turning over if I didn’t lift my back foot at the right time. Then I rediscovered Count Yogi’s odd swing in George Peper’s book “The Secret of Golf” and got a new insight into Hogan’s waggle action and squaring the face before impact with radial-ulnar deviation.
The left elbow can be set pre-rotated somewhat at address and still have the elbows sufficiently close together. If you do this then you will find that the left wrist sets up cupped to some degree right at address. You will have to just see what works for you. You either have the pockets of the elbows facing the sky and rotate the arms on the bcakswing or you start with the left arm preset the way it should be at the top.
Well I suppose that those who have got it all down with another action can just ignore all of this. I used these compensatory moves to get to a couple strokes better than scratch a long time ago. If others don`t find it of use to them to know what these little moves are about then that is fine. I`m just putting the context of what I learned many years ago and what Moe told me out there for others to know also. Many people it seems have found these little videos quite helpful.
these videos are more than helpful they are legendary. I just cant do what you do with the top part of my arm without the left hand wrist supinating as well. maybe I'm miss interpreting it. I know its been a long while but could we discuss this any further as I understand what your saying I just cant do it...
Actually I am trying to eliminate the need to time something. The roll of the left arm is what permits the arm to get straight onto the shoulder plane on the backswing. Most golfers loop up and then have to drop the right elbow into position with a lateral move that also puts the left arm into the position that I manually put it into on the backswing. What I am showing eliminates a move and takes the timing of that out of the equation. It allows me to swing straight into the hitting position.
This is actually a great video. I started consciously adding pronation in my backswing (with a slower tempo), and my contact consistency skyrocketed. The supination didn’t need any conscious thought; it seems to just happen as everything uncoils. Thanks for this tip!!
I came to learn about pronation and supination and ended up learning something more important. I've heard it over and over that on the backswing you should not shift your weight to the outside of your right foot(swaying) , but NO ONE has ever explained WHY (except to say that moving the head is bad).Finally someone explains it in a way that makes sense. It's easier to stay as close as possible to the same plane going back as well as forward.Nice job!
Left forearm rotation is an illusion created by the right shoulder joint rotation. No concious thought is required regarding left forearm rotation. The plane is created by the arc, which is created by levering the right arm back into a vertical position
The arm can rotate from the shoulder joint and it can also at the wrist because the radius and ulna move over one another. This is what makes the wrist turn. To turn the arm without turning the wrist the upper arm rotates to the right at the shoulder and the wrist is rotated in the opposite direct vis a vis the radius and ulna. That is basically what is happening in that action.
The release does happen naturally although I do some things that give it a little extra juice at the bottom and my hands are a little more active thanis usually recommended. I use very old clubs. I was at Golftown to fit my old 1967 Hogan Percussions for new shafts. They put me on their machine and I was hitting that old 5i between 189 and 204. They handed me a newer Cleveland blade to try and that flew about 15 yards further than that. Difference would be in the loft and the shaft.
Watch the video I did called Hogan Waggle Cup and fade. You can cup the left wrist if you feel that you are over rotating. The other thing you can do is to be aware that the left thumb is on the plane. That is basically how you get on plane. Through the left shoulder and the left thumb. I wouldn't worry about overrotating the wrists just be aware of where that left thumb is pointing. The famous power hitter Mike Austin had a lot to say on this and he was unquestionably correct. Sevam1
Sevam1 is on right track. What I found in Mr Hogans Five Lessons in the Foreword section of his book is all about his "secret" or what he found would allow him to hit the ball straighter and farther consistently. When asked what it was, Mr Hogan said he rotated his left forearm away from the ball in the back swing thus putting his wrist in the pronation position he wanted, then he would rotate the left forearm back toward the ball on the downswing. see next post
My left hand grip is neutral to weak. Thumb on top. The wrist rotates or supinates because of an action of the radius and ulna. Those bones attach at the elbow and wrist and roll over top of one another. They must turn for supination and pronation to happen. Turning the upper arm in the shoulder joint can also cause a similar rotation of the wrist. Hogan's left wrist bows (goes through palmar flexion) while it supinates. That is what you are seing in the pictures. A compound action.
Well Im illustrating that the arm can roll from the shoulder independent of the hand and wrist. That does not mean that you do not turn the hands on the backswing. You do. It not you would be just chopping wood. In the golfswing the clubhead path is an ellipse on an angle. To create that the arms and hands have to turn to varying degrees. Just remember that where the left thumb points on the backswing is generally what determines where the club is going and the plane that you will be on.
Sevam I watched this vid about a year ago and honestly I didnt know what you meant, but today I found that feeling, I never put much thought into what I do immediately after the takeaway, this rotation (as well as hindging the wrists) is it! wow once I did it I remembered this youtube vid I never quite understood and BAM its exactly what Im doing, its a strong sensation but it doesnt look like much when you watch a swing. Im blown away, you really know what you,re talking about after all lol thx
Well that used to be called the difference between upright and flat swings until Jim Hardy reclassified the elements of those two swings. My point is that in either case, the backswing arc and downswing arc are not the same and are tipped differently. The main reason for this is that the motion is motivated around one pivot point on the backswing by one muscle set and towards and the around another pivot point on the downswing by another muscle set. The arcs in each direction are not the same.
OK You are correct there. The bowing is like a governor on the whole downswing preventing the over rotation of the hands and promoting a hands ahead position at impact. I turn the handle and introduce the bowing of the wrist at the bottom of what Hogan called the "free ride". It is a relatively simple move and it basically times itself. When you feel it trying to happen you just go with it.
If you roll the arm from the shoulder on the way back and cup the wrist at the top you are basically into this position. I never practiced it, but after turning the arm from the shoulder to swing across my chest repeatedly I found that I could duplicate that condition in the arm and wrist at address. The ability just developed from hitting balls and having that happen dynamically I guess. I never worked at it. I am sure that it will be something that some do with ease. Others not so much.
My main point is just to make clear that bowing is related to but not the same a the supination move on the downswing. It is something that is happening in conjunction with the supination move illustrated in 5 Lessons but the bowing of the wrist is called palmar flexion and simply is accompanied by the supination (an arm rotation motivated in a direction towards palm up). Cupping is technically dorsiflexion. This is something that people have always been confused about so I am clearing it up.
I see no problem with what you are doing. Let the ballflight be your judge. I sometimes do exactly what you are doing letting the left hand turn down a bit inside the right hand instead of preserving it as static or perfectly married. Interesting that you have found that little move.
I always want my right elbow facing the ground throughout the swing. On the followthrough I don't think about plane. During the swing I am thinking of getting through the golfball with both arms extended fully when the clubhead is about 1 to 2 feet past the ball. Where the club heads next I do not try to control. It goes where the clubhead inertia takes it. If the right arms rolls it will not be happening because I am trying to make it happen. Rather it will happen because I let it happen.
It's a rotational movement from the shoulder joint. It can be done! If you don't do it, and instead leave that left elbow facing downward, you end up with a closed clubface at the top. This rotation allows you to keep the clubface sqaure through the swing.
This video is very important. The penny has now started to drop. I have changed many things but now i have started to rotate left arm and keep it straight it MAKES me feel like rotating my right foot clockwise into the ground on backswing. The two compliment each other. Its interesting that you say only other options is the loop and broken left arm backswing as i always broke my left arm. I put the pieces together slowly but surely on the range.
I've always thought of the rolling of the left arm and wrist in the backswing as one..I never thought of how you explained it. I have had problems with a flat backswing and a closed club face at the top, and I think working on that Motion of Pronating on the back swing with the forearm, but not rolling the wrist too will help that closed face at the top.. Thanks
I think I've been stumbling upon the positive result of the move and then strayed and paid the price the last few times I've played... I will check in after the range tomorrow after testing it out. I'm so close! great vids!
***** Thank you so much for posting this... I've never taken a lesson in my life and I've been playing since my late teens and I've never been able to hit the ball the way I hit it this morning! This explanation of the supination is like the missing piece of the puzzle! I know I'll find something else to over analyse but this move is what I've been missing!!! crushing it today!!! the swing is so much more functional with this realization!!! felt effortless!
Hi Mike, You are extremely interesting to learn from since your knowledge of all types of swings is vast. I sometimes have trouble timing the pronation of my lead arm during my backswing, but have found that if I partially pronate my lead arm at address, it works better for me. Is this an acceptable approach?
Beyond that if you get the arms up an away from the body, then you are going to have to make a strong lateral move to drop things into position again. This is something that those that swing on or below the shoulder plane need not worry about. Harvey Penick's Magic move is less aggressive the lower hands are kept on the backswing.
I always found that retaining the right knee flex helped to turn that left arm over somewhat in the b/s. Basically the opposite of S&T where the club risks crossing the line.
Just to let everyone know i sorted out sending the shots right. My right elbow wasnt tucked in enough. I keep my right elbow in now and that has sorted it out. Im hitting up to a 4 iron scary good now. I still need to work on driver/3 wood/3 iron. I will watch your driver post Mike to see if its the same swing. I have totally changed from arm 'hitting' to swinging the club. Just got to sort drives out (that was previouslt my strong part of game).
See first post and read this last: When Mr Hogan began the forearm rotation back toward the ball he would generate more club head speed from his right leg to the impact position thus gaining more distance and superb ball contact. Mr Hogan also said that YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT ARM AS YOU DO WITH THE RIGHT ARM, YOU MUST DO IT WITH THE LEFT ARM. Read it, try it, you will like it. I did.
If you take care of the right elbow and proper movement of the left arm then the proper action of the wrists is simply a reaction to the mass of the clubhead. A good golf swing simplifies and reduces the number of things that you "make happen" and maximizes the incidence of things that you simply "let happen". Moe Norman said that "Let" was the most important word in golf. Of course he said a lot of things, but this is something that I have found to be true.
Just started the left arm roll...omg it was the one element I have been missing lo these many years. Here's another benefit you didn't mention but is so obvious to me... when you "set" the left arm roll at address... it automatically applies a huge amount of downward force to the left hand ham...ok?... it squeezes that ham onto the grip and really really stablizes your grip...
This 'left arm roll' as it is referred to here is a VITAL part of consistent ball striking trust me ive experimented with this and ways to get into this position its all about getting that club pointing directly at your target, to do this you have to roll the left arm and once you integrate this its an extremely reliable way of getting in 'the slot'. Also people should note how in his book Hogan said how YOU HAVE TO DO IT WITH THE LEFT ARM this is what he was talking about. A KEY POINT.
Read the book again - Orange = backswing plane Black = Downswing plane You also have pronation and supination backwards in your post below. Second, one of the main points of this little segment is to point out the difference between the two paths, arcs or planes that Hogan describes in 5 Lessons. I don't think you know what you are talking about because the right shoulder has screw all to do with how I am taking the club back.
I am not sure what you are getting at. Pronation and supination are actions. Pronation of the left arm would have it turning basicallly from palm up to palm down. Pronation and supination moves can originate in the shoulder joint or in the forearm/wrist area as the radius and ulna movearoun d one another. Any rotation executed in that direction and to any degree would be a pronating action because it is moving the hand towards a prone position.
I have struggled for years to improve my swing.I keep coming back to your videos to try to get better.I find your knowledge of the golf swing incredible. I struggle with a very steep swing and I have found that if I break my right arm as you say it sets me on plane better. Can this right arm fold be done right from the start of the back swing ?
I actually think alot about plane and think that Jim Hardy's ideas are great and valuable and I think that he is an exceptional teacher. That said, the concept confuses people and so I think that it should not be the core element of any method. Hogan himself with his sheet of glass was not talking very much about optimum plane, but simply illustrating where the danger is in getting above the glass. I don't think this was meant to spawn whole philosophies on the swing.
Do you think the left arm rotation is important for having the shallow downswing plane? I don't think i rotate it like that on the backswing and have a steep shaft plane(albeit pointing inside the ball line) coming down with my left arm too much 'on' my chest instead of that space you see on well planed swings.Been working with my coach on ways to get that arm 'out' coming down.Could lack of rotation be the reason?
Also since i adopted your weight transfer thoughts and finishing weight. My short game has been scary acurate. My only issue is puting longer shots right and straight. I hope the arm rotate will solve this.
Through impact you push, pull and rotate.All three together you said. On the takeaway, do you reverse that and do you trigger that with a little forward press setting the wrist in a 45 degree angle?
i don't understand how the early rotation of the left arm without a change in the clubface can help to hit a fade. my understanding was that Hogan wanted this move to effect the clubface considerably and really open it up on the backswing. if, as is suggested, the left forearm rotates without any change to the clubface then any movement of the left arm counter-clockwise on the downswing will shut the clubface will it not?
thanks for the entertaining and insightful videos. great swing too. question: when you say "all this talk about 1 and 2 places is baloney, are you referring to Jim Hardy's "Plane Truth" wherein he emphasizes Hogan's similar arm and shoulder planes at the top of his backswing? In general, what is your view of the relationship between arm and shoulder planes: do you think it matters if someone's arm plane is more upright than someone else's?
So if someone came to you and they had an upright arm plane, would you look to have them flatten it? Also, do you give lessons, there's a promising young golfer in NF, NY area I'd like to set you up with.
Sevam ive watched your videos i like the style of your swing, great ball striker and its clear to see youve spent many hours tinkering with things and no doubt like me lie in your bed at night trying to picture things in your mind, brilliant stuff. I'm also a great Hogan fan and find your views on certain aspects of his game interesting, although i remain convinced he meant the 'secret in the dirt' to be countless hours practicing THE CORRECT MOVEMENTS WHICH HE HAS LEFT FOR ALL TO C excellent
and his wrist would be bowed or as he called it the supination position at impact. Now the question is when he would perform these movements with his left forearm? During the back swing it appears he would start rotating his forearm away from the ball when his hands and club reached about waist high and the club was parallel to the ground. On the down swing it is apparent that he would begin to rotate back toward the ball when his hands were even with his right leg. see next post
how do you ensure that the wrists don't overrotate as well? I have a problem where I am to flat on the backswing because I am rolling the arms in the backswing...any suggestions?
Hogan and Moe had very little wasted motion because of that, but neither could be truly called single plane swingers.Jim Hardy is totally correct that the mechanics are different for swings where the arms migrate north than swings that exist primarily on the shoulder plane or below on the backswing.
During the transition, after you have rotated your left arm back, is the move from there to simple straighten your right arm? is the 3 right hands in reference to this move? thanks.
Mike - I appreciate your thoughts. I find when arm turns so does my hand. I can let elbow bow and get some turn. Is that what you mean - or does leftr hand turn inside the right hand a little?
I am sorry that I did not answer this question. I have answered so many and just missed this one. The answer is that many many many great golfers rely on such a loop. Just look at Fred Couples or in the more extreme Jim Furyk and you are seeing the same type of loop that Trevino used.
hey savam. I am a huge fan of yours. I was just wondering if you do this pre set before every take away? thanks keep it up!! im addicted to secret in the dirt site!! lol!
With the wedge(s) there is nothing wrong with what I would call "arming it". Some things you do for power. Some for control. An "armed" wedge shot is just a smaller version of what you are doing when you bomb it. When you "arm" a shot you can't help but come in a little steeper and in the process get more spin. Just remember that you are responsible for the blade angle on these shots. The swing alone will not square the blade. You are in charge! There is a time and a place for this shot.
what do you do when you are not teaching the golf swing on youtube? very good videos by the way. i fell into this swing through experimentation on my own. it greatly simplifies the game. the average course i play is 7000 yards (not sure what that is in meters). i have never been a long hitter but now i pretty much hit 12/14 fairways and 14/18 greens. if i miss a green i am usually just short. anyways, as a teenager i logged in a few hundred hours in lessons and this by far is the best.
I take it you are talking about the pockets of the elbows. If they stay up the hands head to the sky basically and the club will also. It won't move around you it will head up. Best I can say is to try it and see where that clubhead wants to go.
Sevam i have a question, so its ok to pronate before you start our swing, because it has helped my ball striking a lot but it just doesn't seem right, when i look at the pros they all have there elbows towards there hip bones at address. But when i swing i cant seem to do it without it at address
No way can I turn top half of arm at shoulder. Any pronation turns my hand. However by pushing a cupping with the pad - and twisting the left hand a little inside the right - I create a turn of the arm which can now go across my body by about 2 inches, thus keeping the hands in front of the body. Mike, would you kindly comment please?
Can anyone rotate the top of the left arm like that while keeping the blade square? I can’t,I don’t think it’s possible for most people. My left wrist rotates and opens the club face.. maybe I’m just shit. Sevame1 explain please mate....
Hi Mike, thanks for the vids, is there any arm pulling motion from the top of the backswing, or does the pivot take care of shallowing out the shaft for the downswing?
Everything moves together on the backswing. I do not trigger with a forward press. I just start to move mass right and my hands react forward to that. I do not set the angle. The mass of the swinging clubhead is what creates the hinging in the wrist. It is a reaction. I do not set it. Setting it would be the last thing that I would want to do.
The upper left arm will "roll" at the ball and socket joint automatically as a result of moving across the chest. But it won't be enough to rotate the clubface to parallel (square) to the plane at the top. For that, the left wrist must roll independently. So to show the upper arm roll with no wrist roll is silly, because not only will the wrist follow, but roll even more. These are the biomechanical facts.
I clearly see your left arm roll in the video, but I'm damned if I can do it. Its like you have an extra joint in your wrist that I don't have! Are you preventing turning the club face by resisting and holding it square with the right hand?? Your series of swing videos is really wonderful and greatly appreciated. You really have deep insight into the golf swing. You should publish a book named Ben Hogan's lessons 6 to 10.
Quit gof in 99 to pursue other interests. My short game was never great when I played a lot. Never putted great. Didn't paymuch attention to that stuff. I play about 5 times a year now and for some reason I seem to be able to putt. Chipping pitching and all of the other finicky finesse parts I am very rusty at right now I would imagine. I am hitting it very good, but I have to say not to many arrows in the short game quiver right now after so many years without practicing.
Not necessarily. I wold have to see what the ball was doing. I would also have to look at their relative strengths and weaknesses and the relationship between their body and equipment. In other words "if it ain't broke...." I would be interested in helping a young golfer.
You should have received an email with a link to download the revised book on around the 12th. If you did not get that send me an email and I will get one off to you.
@chrisw1245 Use this and set it up for yourself in whatever way get you your personal best results. There is no one single universal way to do this. Being aware of what is happening is the main point that i was trying to make in this video.
Keep the right elbow pointing down. That arm will turn a bit on its own, but you do not want to be motivating that to happen. Keep that elbow pointed down.
That is and intersting view on this. I think , however, that it is not correct. The shoulder turn simply does not motivate the left arm to roll and you also lost me at the word "level" with respect to the turn of both the hips and the shoulders.
so your telling me you roll you left arm to add loft then you roll your left arm back to square. it sounds like your trying to time something that doesnt need to be timed. Try turning your shoulders and see if your left arm doesnt naturally roll. i bet you it does. i think your idea is good it gives people the feeling but i dont think its something you force. when you roll something open it means you have to roll something closed. The less moves you have the easier it is to get consistent.
As a golf instructor myself I get my students to roll their left forearm in the backswing like you mentioned in the video. However, a lot of them struggle, but its a very good point you made about having the left forearm 'pre-set' in that position. Never thought of that. Many thanx and keep up the good work.
When I worked my way through Hogan’s Five Lessons book with an old blade 7 iron I realized the secret to correct hinging of the trail arm is the proper use of the Vardon grip which will literally force the trail arm to fold elbow down which is what give it the leverage to control the force generated by the club head.
That’s easily seen by swinging the club in one hand: you can get a lot of power swing it with just the lead arm but not much control - the direction of the toe tends to steer and control swing plane like the rudder of a ship as it swings because the arm rotates and pronates/supinates so freely at the shoulder joint. The folding down of the trail arm prevents pronation but only if grip is established with the ulna and radius of both forearms in the middle of their 180° range of pronation / supination.
I discovered this myself one day out by rotating the club as far forward in front of me with just my lead hand forcing the elbow done and into my body and lead arm into external rotation maxing out the travel of my wrist and elbow joint of the lead arm THEN placing my trail hand on top in the Vardon grip. It was the first time in my life I felt comfortable getting my trail hand thumb pad up over the lead thumb. When I bent over and the club swung down straighten my arms my forearms twisted inward against each other not in an opposite “wringing towel” action as illustrated in Hogan’s book. The illustrator got that wrong!
The counter rotating in my forearm made them feel like twisted steel cables and I started hitting shots 20 yards further and much straighter because it took all the slack out of arm triangle and grip and FORCED my trail arm down properly in the backswing so it reconnected properly in the downswing.
Analyzing what happened I realized that by starting maxed out forward in external rotating of the lead arm then adding trail hand back down at address both forearms wound up in the middle of their range of supination / pronation and that was the key to the trail and lead arms folding action being a mirror image in the back swing and finish. The key was the overlap of the thumbs that allows the wrists to turn over like a hinge pin on gate controlling the path of the hands and club head and keeping the force from pulling hands further away from the body and outside the ball like a lead arm only swing of the club will do.
I realized I had been using the Vardon grip incorrectly because I grounded club then gripped it. My trail hand had been too low and the separation made the butt end of the club and hands swing in an arc pulled away from body as it turned over. I realized that’s why I had been slicing the ball - club head moving outside center on the ball then being reflexively steered back down the target line setting up pull-slice. I with my new grip technique I started hitting draws and miss hitting with snap hooks because of the way my wrists seemed to lock up just before turning over if I didn’t lift my back foot at the right time.
Then I rediscovered Count Yogi’s odd swing in George Peper’s book “The Secret of Golf” and got a new insight into Hogan’s waggle action and squaring the face before impact with radial-ulnar deviation.
The left elbow can be set pre-rotated somewhat at address and still have the elbows sufficiently close together. If you do this then you will find that the left wrist sets up cupped to some degree right at address. You will have to just see what works for you. You either have the pockets of the elbows facing the sky and rotate the arms on the bcakswing or you start with the left arm preset the way it should be at the top.
Well I suppose that those who have got it all down with another action can just ignore all of this. I used these compensatory moves to get to a couple strokes better than scratch a long time ago. If others don`t find it of use to them to know what these little moves are about then that is fine. I`m just putting the context of what I learned many years ago and what Moe told me out there for others to know also. Many people it seems have found these little videos quite helpful.
these videos are more than helpful they are legendary. I just cant do what you do with the top part of my arm without the left hand wrist supinating as well. maybe I'm miss interpreting it. I know its been a long while but could we discuss this any further as I understand what your saying I just cant do it...
Actually I am trying to eliminate the need to time something. The roll of the left arm is what permits the arm to get straight onto the shoulder plane on the backswing. Most golfers loop up and then have to drop the right elbow into position with a lateral move that also puts the left arm into the position that I manually put it into on the backswing. What I am showing eliminates a move and takes the timing of that out of the equation. It allows me to swing straight into the hitting position.
This is actually a great video. I started consciously adding pronation in my backswing (with a slower tempo), and my contact consistency skyrocketed. The supination didn’t need any conscious thought; it seems to just happen as everything uncoils. Thanks for this tip!!
You have a great understanding of the swing.
one of the best explanations I have ever seen / heard
regarding key swing points ...... thank you
I came to learn about pronation and supination and ended up learning something more important. I've heard it over and over that on the backswing you should not shift your weight to the outside of your right foot(swaying) , but NO ONE has ever explained WHY (except to say that moving the head is bad).Finally someone explains it in a way that makes sense. It's easier to stay as close as possible to the same plane going back as well as forward.Nice job!
Left forearm rotation is an illusion created by the right shoulder joint rotation. No concious thought is required regarding left forearm rotation. The plane is created by the arc, which is created by levering the right arm back into a vertical position
The arm can rotate from the shoulder joint and it can also at the wrist because the radius and ulna move over one another. This is what makes the wrist turn. To turn the arm without turning the wrist the upper arm rotates to the right at the shoulder and the wrist is rotated in the opposite direct vis a vis the radius and ulna. That is basically what is happening in that action.
The release does happen naturally although I do some things that give it a little extra juice at the bottom and my hands are a little more active thanis usually recommended.
I use very old clubs. I was at Golftown to fit my old 1967 Hogan Percussions for new shafts. They put me on their machine and I was hitting that old 5i between 189 and 204. They handed me a newer Cleveland blade to try and that flew about 15 yards further than that. Difference would be in the loft and the shaft.
Watch the video I did called Hogan Waggle Cup and fade. You can cup the left wrist if you feel that you are over rotating. The other thing you can do is to be aware that the left thumb is on the plane. That is basically how you get on plane. Through the left shoulder and the left thumb. I wouldn't worry about overrotating the wrists just be aware of where that left thumb is pointing. The famous power hitter Mike Austin had a lot to say on this and he was unquestionably correct.
Sevam1
Sevam1 is on right track. What I found in Mr Hogans Five Lessons in the Foreword section of his book is all about his "secret" or what he found would allow him to hit the ball straighter and farther consistently. When asked what it was, Mr Hogan said he rotated his left forearm away from the ball in the back swing thus putting his wrist in the pronation position he wanted, then he would rotate the left forearm back toward the ball on the downswing. see next post
My left hand grip is neutral to weak. Thumb on top.
The wrist rotates or supinates because of an action of the radius and ulna. Those bones attach at the elbow and wrist and roll over top of one another. They must turn for supination and pronation to happen. Turning the upper arm in the shoulder joint can also cause a similar rotation of the wrist. Hogan's left wrist bows (goes through palmar flexion) while it supinates. That is what you are seing in the pictures. A compound action.
Well Im illustrating that the arm can roll from the shoulder independent of the hand and wrist. That does not mean that you do not turn the hands on the backswing. You do. It not you would be just chopping wood. In the golfswing the clubhead path is an ellipse on an angle. To create that the arms and hands have to turn to varying degrees. Just remember that where the left thumb points on the backswing is generally what determines where the club is going and the plane that you will be on.
Sevam I watched this vid about a year ago and honestly I didnt know what you meant, but today I found that feeling, I never put much thought into what I do immediately after the takeaway, this rotation (as well as hindging the wrists) is it! wow once I did it I remembered this youtube vid I never quite understood and BAM its exactly what Im doing, its a strong sensation but it doesnt look like much when you watch a swing. Im blown away, you really know what you,re talking about after all lol thx
Well that used to be called the difference between upright and flat swings until Jim Hardy reclassified the elements of those two swings. My point is that in either case, the backswing arc and downswing arc are not the same and are tipped differently. The main reason for this is that the motion is motivated around one pivot point on the backswing by one muscle set and towards and the around another pivot point on the downswing by another muscle set. The arcs in each direction are not the same.
OK You are correct there. The bowing is like a governor on the whole downswing preventing the over rotation of the hands and promoting a hands ahead position at impact. I turn the handle and introduce the bowing of the wrist at the bottom of what Hogan called the "free ride". It is a relatively simple move and it basically times itself. When you feel it trying to happen you just go with it.
If you roll the arm from the shoulder on the way back and cup the wrist at the top you are basically into this position. I never practiced it, but after turning the arm from the shoulder to swing across my chest repeatedly I found that I could duplicate that condition in the arm and wrist at address. The ability just developed from hitting balls and having that happen dynamically I guess. I never worked at it. I am sure that it will be something that some do with ease. Others not so much.
My main point is just to make clear that bowing is related to but not the same a the supination move on the downswing. It is something that is happening in conjunction with the supination move illustrated in 5 Lessons but the bowing of the wrist is called palmar flexion and simply is accompanied by the supination (an arm rotation motivated in a direction towards palm up). Cupping is technically dorsiflexion. This is something that people have always been confused about so I am clearing it up.
I see no problem with what you are doing. Let the ballflight be your judge. I sometimes do exactly what you are doing letting the left hand turn down a bit inside the right hand instead of preserving it as static or perfectly married. Interesting that you have found that little move.
I always want my right elbow facing the ground throughout the swing. On the followthrough I don't think about plane. During the swing I am thinking of getting through the golfball with both arms extended fully when the clubhead is about 1 to 2 feet past the ball. Where the club heads next I do not try to control. It goes where the clubhead inertia takes it. If the right arms rolls it will not be happening because I am trying to make it happen. Rather it will happen because I let it happen.
It's a rotational movement from the shoulder joint. It can be done! If you don't do it, and instead leave that left elbow facing downward, you end up with a closed clubface at the top. This rotation allows you to keep the clubface sqaure through the swing.
This video is very important. The penny has now started to drop. I have changed many things but now i have started to rotate left arm and keep it straight it MAKES me feel like rotating my right foot clockwise into the ground on backswing. The two compliment each other. Its interesting that you say only other options is the loop and broken left arm backswing as i always broke my left arm. I put the pieces together slowly but surely on the range.
I've always thought of the rolling of the left arm and wrist in the backswing as one..I never thought of how you explained it. I have had problems with a flat backswing and a closed club face at the top, and I think working on that Motion of Pronating on the back swing with the forearm, but not rolling the wrist too will help that closed face at the top.. Thanks
I think I've been stumbling upon the positive result of the move and then strayed and paid the price the last few times I've played... I will check in after the range tomorrow after testing it out. I'm so close! great vids!
***** Thank you so much for posting this... I've never taken a lesson in my life and I've been playing since my late teens and I've never been able to hit the ball the way I hit it this morning! This explanation of the supination is like the missing piece of the puzzle! I know I'll find something else to over analyse but this move is what I've been missing!!! crushing it today!!! the swing is so much more functional with this realization!!! felt effortless!
Hi Mike, You are extremely interesting to learn from since your knowledge of all types of swings is vast. I sometimes have trouble timing the pronation of my lead arm during my backswing, but have found that if I partially pronate my lead arm at address, it works better for me. Is this an acceptable approach?
Beyond that if you get the arms up an away from the body, then you are going to have to make a strong lateral move to drop things into position again. This is something that those that swing on or below the shoulder plane need not worry about. Harvey Penick's Magic move is less aggressive the lower hands are kept on the backswing.
I always found that retaining the right knee flex helped to turn that left arm over somewhat in the b/s. Basically the opposite of S&T where the club risks crossing the line.
Just to let everyone know i sorted out sending the shots right. My right elbow wasnt tucked in enough. I keep my right elbow in now and that has sorted it out.
Im hitting up to a 4 iron scary good now. I still need to work on driver/3 wood/3 iron. I will watch your driver post Mike to see if its the same swing. I have totally changed from arm 'hitting' to swinging the club. Just got to sort drives out (that was previouslt my strong part of game).
See first post and read this last: When Mr Hogan began the forearm rotation back toward the ball he would generate more club head speed from his right leg to the impact position thus gaining more distance and superb ball contact. Mr Hogan also said that YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT ARM AS YOU DO WITH THE RIGHT ARM, YOU MUST DO IT WITH THE LEFT ARM. Read it, try it, you will like it. I did.
If you take care of the right elbow and proper movement of the left arm then the proper action of the wrists is simply a reaction to the mass of the clubhead. A good golf swing simplifies and reduces the number of things that you "make happen" and maximizes the incidence of things that you simply "let happen". Moe Norman said that "Let" was the most important word in golf. Of course he said a lot of things, but this is something that I have found to be true.
Glad that it helped. I think that it will help those people with a handle on Hogan's method most.
Just started the left arm roll...omg it was the one element I have been missing lo these many years. Here's another benefit you didn't mention but is so obvious to me... when you "set" the left arm roll at address... it automatically applies a huge amount of downward force to the left hand ham...ok?... it squeezes that ham onto the grip and really really stablizes your grip...
This 'left arm roll' as it is referred to here is a VITAL part of consistent ball striking trust me ive experimented with this and ways to get into this position its all about getting that club pointing directly at your target, to do this you have to roll the left arm and once you integrate this its an extremely reliable way of getting in 'the slot'. Also people should note how in his book Hogan said how YOU HAVE TO DO IT WITH THE LEFT ARM this is what he was talking about. A KEY POINT.
Read the book again - Orange = backswing plane
Black = Downswing plane
You also have pronation and supination backwards in your post below.
Second, one of the main points of this little segment is to point out the difference between the two paths, arcs or planes that Hogan describes in 5 Lessons. I don't think you know what you are talking about because the right shoulder has screw all to do with how I am taking the club back.
I am not sure what you are getting at. Pronation and supination are actions. Pronation of the left arm would have it turning basicallly from palm up to palm down. Pronation and supination moves can originate in the shoulder joint or in the forearm/wrist area as the radius and ulna movearoun d one another. Any rotation executed in that direction and to any degree would be a pronating action because it is moving the hand towards a prone position.
I have struggled for years to improve my swing.I keep coming back to your videos to try to get better.I find your knowledge of the golf swing incredible. I struggle with a very steep swing and I have found that if I break my right arm as you say it sets me on plane better. Can this right arm fold be done right from the start of the back swing ?
I actually think alot about plane and think that Jim Hardy's ideas are great and valuable and I think that he is an exceptional teacher. That said, the concept confuses people and so I think that it should not be the core element of any method. Hogan himself with his sheet of glass was not talking very much about optimum plane, but simply illustrating where the danger is in getting above the glass. I don't think this was meant to spawn whole philosophies on the swing.
old video but bryson talks about this left arm move along with the right forearm internal and the ball wont go left
Thank you for the great videos & explanations Mike--- huge improvement in my swing after 1 day.
Do you think the left arm rotation is important for having the shallow downswing plane? I don't think i rotate it like that on the backswing and have a steep shaft plane(albeit pointing inside the ball line) coming down with my left arm too much 'on' my chest instead of that space you see on well planed swings.Been working with my coach on ways to get that arm 'out' coming down.Could lack of rotation be the reason?
Also since i adopted your weight transfer thoughts and finishing weight. My short game has been scary acurate. My only issue is puting longer shots right and straight. I hope the arm rotate will solve this.
Through impact you push, pull and rotate.All three together you said. On the takeaway, do you reverse that and do you trigger that with a little forward press setting the wrist in a 45 degree angle?
i don't understand how the early rotation of the left arm without a change in the clubface can help to hit a fade. my understanding was that Hogan wanted this move to effect the clubface considerably and really open it up on the backswing. if, as is suggested, the left forearm rotates without any change to the clubface then any movement of the left arm counter-clockwise on the downswing will shut the clubface will it not?
thanks for the entertaining and insightful videos. great swing too. question: when you say "all this talk about 1 and 2 places is baloney, are you referring to Jim Hardy's "Plane Truth" wherein he emphasizes Hogan's similar arm and shoulder planes at the top of his backswing? In general, what is your view of the relationship between arm and shoulder planes: do you think it matters if someone's arm plane is more upright than someone else's?
So if someone came to you and they had an upright arm plane, would you look to have them flatten it? Also, do you give lessons, there's a promising young golfer in NF, NY area I'd like to set you up with.
Sevam ive watched your videos i like the style of your swing, great ball striker and its clear to see youve spent many hours tinkering with things and no doubt like me lie in your bed at night trying to picture things in your mind, brilliant stuff. I'm also a great Hogan fan and find your views on certain aspects of his game interesting, although i remain convinced he meant the 'secret in the dirt' to be countless hours practicing THE CORRECT MOVEMENTS WHICH HE HAS LEFT FOR ALL TO C excellent
and his wrist would be bowed or as he called it the supination position at impact. Now the question is when he would perform these movements with his left forearm? During the back swing it appears he would start rotating his forearm away from the ball when his hands and club reached about waist high and the club was parallel to the ground. On the down swing it is apparent that he would begin to rotate back toward the ball when his hands were even with his right leg. see next post
how do you ensure that the wrists don't overrotate as well? I have a problem where I am to flat on the backswing because I am rolling the arms in the backswing...any suggestions?
Hogan and Moe had very little wasted motion because of that, but neither could be truly called single plane swingers.Jim Hardy is totally correct that the mechanics are different for swings where the arms migrate north than swings that exist primarily on the shoulder plane or below on the backswing.
During the transition, after you have rotated your left arm back, is the move from there to simple straighten your right arm? is the 3 right hands in reference to this move? thanks.
Mike - I appreciate your thoughts.
I find when arm turns so does my hand. I can let elbow bow and get some turn. Is that what you mean - or does leftr hand turn inside the right hand a little?
I am sorry that I did not answer this question. I have answered so many and just missed this one. The answer is that many many many great golfers rely on such a loop. Just look at Fred Couples or in the more extreme Jim Furyk and you are seeing the same type of loop that Trevino used.
hey savam. I am a huge fan of yours. I was just wondering if you do this pre set before every take away? thanks keep it up!! im addicted to secret in the dirt site!! lol!
With the wedge(s) there is nothing wrong with what I would call "arming it". Some things you do for power. Some for control. An "armed" wedge shot is just a smaller version of what you are doing when you bomb it. When you "arm" a shot you can't help but come in a little steeper and in the process get more spin. Just remember that you are responsible for the blade angle on these shots. The swing alone will not square the blade. You are in charge! There is a time and a place for this shot.
what do you do when you are not teaching the golf swing on youtube? very good videos by the way. i fell into this swing through experimentation on my own. it greatly simplifies the game. the average course i play is 7000 yards (not sure what that is in meters). i have never been a long hitter but now i pretty much hit 12/14 fairways and 14/18 greens. if i miss a green i am usually just short. anyways, as a teenager i logged in a few hundred hours in lessons and this by far is the best.
I take it you are talking about the pockets of the elbows. If they stay up the hands head to the sky basically and the club will also. It won't move around you it will head up. Best I can say is to try it and see where that clubhead wants to go.
Sevam i have a question, so its ok to pronate before you start our swing, because it has helped my ball striking a lot but it just doesn't seem right, when i look at the pros they all have there elbows towards there hip bones at address. But when i swing i cant seem to do it without it at address
No way can I turn top half of arm at shoulder. Any pronation turns my hand.
However by pushing a cupping with the pad - and twisting the left hand a little inside the right - I create a turn of the arm which can now go across my body by about 2 inches, thus keeping the hands in front of the body.
Mike, would you kindly comment please?
what is it we're doing with the 'front arm' ? is it link with the wrists? thnks
Can anyone rotate the top of the left arm like that while keeping the blade square? I can’t,I don’t think it’s possible for most people. My left wrist rotates and opens the club face.. maybe I’m just shit. Sevame1 explain please mate....
Hi Mike, thanks for the vids, is there any arm pulling motion from the top of the backswing, or does the pivot take care of shallowing out the shaft for the downswing?
Everything moves together on the backswing. I do not trigger with a forward press. I just start to move mass right and my hands react forward to that. I do not set the angle. The mass of the swinging clubhead is what creates the hinging in the wrist. It is a reaction. I do not set it. Setting it would be the last thing that I would want to do.
The upper left arm will "roll" at the ball and socket joint automatically as a result of moving across the chest. But it won't be enough to rotate the clubface to parallel (square) to the plane at the top. For that, the left wrist must roll independently. So to show the upper arm roll with no wrist roll is silly, because not only will the wrist follow, but roll even more. These are the biomechanical facts.
Mike, do you ever mow your lawn ? You're always hitting from the rough.
I would have to see your grip and setup in general to gie you any useful informatiuon in this regard.
I clearly see your left arm roll in the video, but I'm damned if I can do it. Its like you have an extra joint in your wrist that I don't have! Are you preventing turning the club face by resisting and holding it square with the right hand??
Your series of swing videos is really wonderful and greatly appreciated. You really have deep insight into the golf swing. You should publish a book named Ben Hogan's lessons 6 to 10.
@Goynes42 That is correct!!!
Why don't you play tournaments Mike (assuming you don't?) How's your short game!!?
Really like your instruction by the way.
Mike Maves is a genius.
Actually pronare means "to turn face down".
The reason I put this up was so that people who had 5 Lessons wouldn't have to bother with the dictionary.
@BirdieBlues because you're hitting through the ball now instead of at the ball into theground.
Did you just start a website with Jack and Steve?
Great tip...worked wonders for me. Thanks!
Quit gof in 99 to pursue other interests. My short game was never great when I played a lot. Never putted great. Didn't paymuch attention to that stuff. I play about 5 times a year now and for some reason I seem to be able to putt. Chipping pitching and all of the other finicky finesse parts I am very rusty at right now I would imagine. I am hitting it very good, but I have to say not to many arrows in the short game quiver right now after so many years without practicing.
How can you roll your left arm without moving your wrist/club face.
I just cant do this and it looks important.
Not necessarily. I wold have to see what the ball was doing. I would also have to look at their relative strengths and weaknesses and the relationship between their body and equipment. In other words "if it ain't broke...." I would be interested in helping a young golfer.
You should have received an email with a link to download the revised book on around the 12th. If you did not get that send me an email and I will get one off to you.
Modern video updates?
@chrisw1245 Use this and set it up for yourself in whatever way get you your personal best results. There is no one single universal way to do this. Being aware of what is happening is the main point that i was trying to make in this video.
Please inform me as to what it means.
since I started focusing on a bowed rather than just a flat left wrist I seemed to have cleared up my fat shots? why is this?
They’re backkkkkk!
Nice explanation! Thanks!
I just dont get this.
I dont get how you can rotate the left arm without turnin your wrist/hand.
It looks a key part to the swing
I wouldn't waste my time or anybody else's talking about something that I didn't think was important.
Keep the right elbow pointing down. That arm will turn a bit on its own, but you do not want to be motivating that to happen. Keep that elbow pointed down.
How the hell do you rotate your left arm without rotating your wrist / club face????
Love the video. Keep up he good work.
I dont know how you can rotate your arm without turning the wrist.
I just dont get this and ive a feeling its very important.
I wonder how many days he had to wait to get the hurricane force winds to accompany the video.
Video should be titled "The less variables ya have the better ya gonna be"!
P = pronation: down towards Plants...S = supination: up towards Sun; P/Plants/Pronation/down---S/Supination/Sun/up...
"You have to know what you are trying to do"
mind blown!!
That is and intersting view on this. I think , however, that it is not correct. The shoulder turn simply does not motivate the left arm to roll and you also lost me at the word "level" with respect to the turn of both the hips and the shoulders.
so your telling me you roll you left arm to add loft then you roll your left arm back to square. it sounds like your trying to time something that doesnt need to be timed. Try turning your shoulders and see if your left arm doesnt naturally roll. i bet you it does. i think your idea is good it gives people the feeling but i dont think its something you force. when you roll something open it means you have to roll something closed. The less moves you have the easier it is to get consistent.
The camera man's comments are disruptive, interrupting and add no value to your otherwise great videos.
Eugene Roos I agree
ok!