I'm a fan of the hardest part being at the beginning, because I find it less boring when grinding and when you do get far it really turns into a nerve test
I like when XL levels slowly increase in difficulty, like how the first 25% of future funk is relatively easy, and 25-50% is a bit harder. The second half is definitely a good bit harder but Its not a big enough difference to ruin the level for me.
yknow what type of balancing i absolutely despise? clubstep/supersonic type balancing where it's really second half heavy, it just makes it annoying as hell to play from zero
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 yeah i hate that kind of balancing which sucks, because I'm grinding supersonic rn and it has that type of balancing, so i'm just practicing the dual onwards and like nothing else
I know it's comical how much I mention Dark Odyssey, but I feel like it's a perfect example of a balanced level with MASSIVE changes in difficulty. The beginning is like 5 star, and the level at its peak difficulty is probably like hard demon gameplay. However, this doesn't happen all at once. This gradually changed over 6 MINUTES. The level only has a few noticeable jumps in difficulty, but they massively help the storytelling of the level. Balancing should match the intensity of the song, the intensity of the level itself, the storytelling (if there is any, lol), and it shouldn't be much harder/easier than the part before. Unbalanced doesn't necessarily mean unfun btw, it all depends on what you enjoy. I just personally think that it's best if you balance this way, since it not only makes the level more fair to play, has more gp diversity than the "flat line" balance, and usually helps intensity.. There's always an exception to the rule though (idk an exception though)
Good idea. I think if your level is longer, you can change the difficulty more (as long as it still happens gradually) without it becoming “unbalanced”.
my favourite balancing is first half, as you can practice the easier half and get super consistent at it making the levels quite flukable most of the time. overall any type of balancing that gets progressively easier as it compensates for your nerves playing the level, giving it the illusion of very balanced gameplay when playing from 0
Fluking isn't really fun in my opinion. With a geometry dash level, the fun doesn't come from finishing the level, it comes from playing and progressing in the level.
My least favorite balancing type is the “U” where the beginning and end are the hardest parts. An example of this is Acu where the beginning and end are significantly harder than the rest of the level which makes it very frustrating imo
yeah i died to the 85% pink orb in acu 15 times in the same sitting lmao. the entire main chunk of the level eventually felt non existent after doing it over and over
I disagree in the case of acu. I found that the predrop gets decently consistent, and the second half of the predrop was never a problem (at least for me) anyway. I also though the drop wasn't completely free, and the level kind of tenses me up until I reach any of the waves. The waves definitely being the hardest parts. The ending is definitely tough, but to me that just makes it 100x more exhilarating when I pass it. Although 85x15 in one session is crazy like how tf does that happen, for the future if something's that inconsistent practice the hell out of it. This is all coming from someone that beat Acu as his first extreme and gave it a 10/10 btw. I'm (clearly) very passionate about the level.
@@thisguykreas I personally found everything from 24-88 to be insanely easy and could do it every third attempt at the drop, it could have been mental block but I at one point got to the end literally 3 attempts in a row.
Honestly, balancing isn't something that I care about much when analyzing levels. The top three things that affect enjoyment are as follows: 1. Bugs: If I have to change my refresh rate to pass a part or entering a portal in a specific way causes unintended side effects then the level will immediately be less enjoyable. 2. Readability: If it's not intended to be a memory level or learny, it should be relatively obvious what I'm supposed to do next. Also, deco being unclear as to what's solid/not and overly flashing is annoying. 3. Gameplay: Optimized gameplay and good transitions are key. The level should feel good to play, and the music should sync to what's going on on screen.
2:16 this is definitely me. I want every difficult level/challenge in any game to have this curve. The reason is that it makes choking at the finish less common, like i am really bad at keeping nerves.
Yeah you guys are definitely NOT gonna like my xl level, the beginning is Pretty hard, the middle is a break, the middle-end is. Pure agony, suffering, painful, and a shocking difficulty spike, and the end is the break and End Basically beginning is around 6-9 stars - easy demon, middle is 5-9 stars, middle-end is Easy demon (11 seconds of 4-8 stars break at the end of the first part) - easy demon - high-end easy demon, and the end is insane - low easy demon to [auto (end)]
example of what not to do: falling up. literally gets harder and harder gradually until it becomes top 1 silent oppenheimer impossible hell demon at the end
i think it's usually best when it matches the song, also i know that chokepoints are inherently bad, but honestly sometimes passing a way harder part or even just tiny section in a part at like 60% and than having a chance at beating the level is fun, tho usually this is only the case when it isn't a super hard level for your skill level, i think it's impossible to make gameplay that is good for everyone and the way gameplay plays is usually more important than the balancing also do not ever make the gameplay for each part perfectly balanced, it is only marginally better than balancing the entire level, if a part kinda just feels the same throughout it it's not really that fun, this is pretty common in a lot of layouts now and also not just exclusive to the difficulty of it, ig what i'm saying is don't have chokepoints (unless it works) but have some clicks feel a little harder and whatnot
This video is well made and has many agreeablene points I find that many people get their head wrapped around this topic, whether their level being perfectly balanced, abiding by a formula, or making pointless balance changes. Sometimes these sorts of things hinder levels from reaching their full potential. Imagine if the robtop demons were perfectly balanced, that would be real boring. Honestly, levels don’t need to be perfectly balanced or strictly follow a certain difficulty pattern There’s nothing wrong with a little unbalance Creators should strive to match the difficulty of a part with the intensity of the song at said part TLDR As long you don’t go sakupen circles mode on the balancing, and your difficulty curve is well thought out and meaningful, you’ll do just fine
Something important to note, I think, is that in levels built for their length, relatively even difficulty throughout is basically required in order to make the level not be massively tedious. Butiti 2 comes to mind as having really fun gameplay but being so obnoxiously second half heavy that I could never stand beating, even multiple years after I got... 87% iirc. It's very easy to make your level feel painfully second half heavy in XL levels. From my experience creating and playing, I've leaned towards (in my own levels) 20-30% having a difficulty spike, 50-60% having a difficulty spike, 60-70% being a break, and 70-80% being a very slight difficulty spike. It's a format that works pretty well for me.
Some things that probably affect how satisfying a level is to play are: don’t put choke points/really hard parts around transition sections. I.e the last few clicks before the drop and first few clicks of the drop.
I've been playing this game since 2016, and in my time doing so I beat levels of all kinds of difficulty ranges ( except for today's list demon ), and over time I realized that by far the best kind of difficulty for hard levels like insane and extreme demons is a kind of "trapezoid" shape. My explanation will only be true for extreme and high insane demons, though, so keep that in mind. It starts off rather easy in the first 3-6% just so you don't bang your head into a wall like an idiot because the first 3 clicks are insane, this gives a sense of relief and lets you breathe a little bit between attempts. Then it starts ramping up the difficulty *slowly*, if it's done right then it won't be all that noticeable, only that, say, 20% is harder than 5%. If it's based around a drop like the overwhelming majority of the levels are, then at the end of the buildup ( excluding any potential auto parts ) the difficulty should stop, and completely flatline ALL THE WAY until the end of the drop. If you want a break in there, put it there. If you want to make the second half of the drop harder, only do ever so slightly so it's noticeable that it's harder, but still only ever so slightly. Then if you have a post drop ending part, make absolutely sure it's below the difficulty of the drop, preferably somewhere between the beginning part and the drop. Why is this the perfect one in my opinion? Because it adjusts to the needs and demands of the human psyche to make the best kind of experience. You won't die at the very beginning over and over again. Every popular list grinder ever has said many times that if the predrop is ridiculously hard then the level is frustrating. A slow increase makes it sure that you can adjust on the fly. Whatever you do, make ABSOLUTELY SURE the difficulty increase stops rather early in the level then remains constant or close to it throughout the level. Why? This is the most important part: Well, you might think a climax looks cool and all and that you should adjust the difficulty, but after over 10.000 attempts every level kind of gets old. At that point stress will come from the grind being close to being over, not the flashy climax or something. Every player will grow numb to your climax after a certain point. What does that leave the player with? The hardest part being in the second half of the level, usually in the 60-80's. And let me tell you, it is VERY frustrating. Because at that scale of the difficulty, it's almost guaranteed that you will die to the end multiple times. If you get unlucky, your player might get mind blocked and end up dying 30-50+ times at the end because it's just that hard and because they now gave up on getting away with a few thousand less attempts. Your player will hate your level, or not feel great about it once they finished it despite liking the level initially. You don't want that. Listen: A level being flukable IS A GOOD THING. If you fluke a level from the mid 50's and 60's then the player will feel good about it and fondly remember your level, ASSUMING you did the predrop balancing part well. This is also why it's important that the last part is significantly easier than the ones coming before it. The player will be nervous. That will make them play worse. They can control it to some extent, but in reality they can't, unless their skill level is so beyond your level's one that they just don't care due to apathy. Also make sure you don't leave seconds of inaction in your ending, because that will let the player sit and get out of the flow and realize "oh shit I'm approaching the end" and get nervous. If you can keep your player in flow at the end don't let them go. This is why the last part of RUST is infamous, despite being a level with very high reputation for it's gameplay. Adjust to the player being nervous and make the ending easier. This formula is at it's best with levels like Incipient and Endless Dream just to give you two examples. It just works every time. Of course, other forms of balancing are good as well, but the more you play the more you will realize that the most liked levels in the community will have a correlation with the trapezoid difficulty curve, and not only that, the more they fit, the more revered they will be.
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301Thank you, I watched the video and it was great! It liked the open-mindedness of it, and it went straight to the point with no clutter, while also being easy to understand. The level is XL so it's taking me months, but it's almost done, it mostly needs deco retouching, and balancing. The balancing is similiar to ToE2 in your example, but I'm trying to not make it too drastic when giving breaks, and the tip about making difficulty more gradual definetely cleared up my mind, I'll tell you when it's done. Thanks again, I'm subscribed
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 It's a low-end extreme, so it's very hard... but the length is XL so it won't be too overwhelming, you could still play some parts with start pos
i dont think the ending should be harder. i verified a level with a really hard ending, so you get there every time and its really really annoying. first half heavy levels on the other hand are SO much more fun to me because it makes you excited for a longer amount of time. my optimal difficulty "chart" is a 3/5 first quarter, 2/5 second quarter, 4/5 third quarter, and then a 3/5 fourth quarter. what do you think?
Absolutely amazing video, the most interesting analysis I’ve seen in GD I think. I think the middle part could be as hard as you want if you make sure that it’s 100% consistent, for example a memory part. The difficulty should come from learning it, not timings imo.
I think harder sections at the beginning work better the progressively shorter a level is. Like take an extreme example like a challenge for instance. Most challenges, in my experience at least, generally gravitate towards extremely difficult beginnings, which helps a lot when grinding them from 0, as it reduces the consistency required to pass the gameplay when its at the beginning, which makes the general playing experience of them a lot smoother in my opinion, and this concept extends some to most levels under a minute generally (although its not often you'll see actual short levels so, but the lack of 40-50 second long levels is a different tangent entirely lol). In longer levels, say 80+ seconds, you have a lot more room to cultivate an actual difficulty arc, which is where I think drops being the hardest parts, and having troughs like you explained, actually works really well. Edit: Additional thing, having a stupid easy predrop can easily kill levels (thinking like Poltergeist for example, where the predrop is so mind-numbingly boring its hard to focus when you get to the wave.), and having a stupidly hard/annoying predrop can as well (Sparkling Hope comes to mind).
it depends on how hard the level is imo, it's cool when easy/medium demons become more and more intense but for harder levels it can become frustrating
As some one who likes levels that start out harder I like it (as long as the beginning isn’t too hard) because when you play from zero you naturally become very consistent at the beginning over time, and since the end is easier it makes the level more fun to play from zero as you always feel like you could beat it randomly, it also makes a level more flukable An example would be a level starting out like bloodbath difficulty and then gradually decreasing in difficulty to an entry level extreme demon difficulty
A lot of top players seem to share this sentiment, but a level doesn't have to be balanced for the experience to be enjoyable. A great example of this is Fexty. This is one of my favorite levels of all time and yet it's extremely imbalanced. It goes from a hard demon up to 51% and then multiple 60hz frame perfects in the wave. While it can be frustrating, when you finally get past the fexty wave it is *satisfying*. Mastermind by Hinds and The Caverns by pasiblitz are two levels I enjoyed because they were extremely balanced. No part felt way harder than the rest of the level combined, which brings up another point: Parts will be harder than others in a level, but one part generally shouldn't stand out as being way harder than the whole rest of the level. While fexty proves to me balance isn't everything, it is a large part of what makes a level enjoyable.
Worst type of balancing has to be the an extremely bs beginning. Doesn’t matter if the rest of the level is the most fun thing ever or intense, being stuck at the beginning for like 3 minutes in a row on average is the easiest way to lose patience and any motivation to play the level. Great example being Firewall by Hinds, piece ofnpiss
i think it just depends on the level style. for short levels having a challenge part can be sometimes ok. but long levels probably dont want to have big differences with each part. i personally just like it to fit the music
I would do For the pre-drop, let the difficulty kinda crescendo, bump the difficulty by a reasonable amount at the drop, and at the post-drop section, let the difficulty kinda decrescendo.
i think the best type of balancing is the start/predrop being the SECOND hardest part, the start of the drop being really easy compared to the rest and then the second half ramps up massively
I play a lot of old demons (going through each one chronologically), and they are usually a good example of how not to balance. A lot of them are balanced as just a flat line (minus a few chokepoints), and that makes the levels sometimes mind-numbing to play. For example, Extreme Park is a really creative level, but it is basically the same difficulty throughout. And it made the level really boring, there was no anticipation, no relief at passing a hard part, no memorable sections. It is just as frustrating to die at a completely random place every attempt as it is to die at the same part every time.
If you want to make one half of the level harder than the other. Choosing the first half will probably make your level slightly less annoying. Levels like Future Funk and CraZy take forever to complete because the really hard stuff is at the end, and the levels become very annoying and/or boring after a while. However, having the beginning be impossible can be just as annoying. Levels like Poltergeist and HeLL annoyed me to no end because you never get anywhere. Now, I did only die to one spot in particular for Poltergeist, but my point still stands. People also complain about a lot of Extremes having impossible predrops, too. However, I'd say that no matter what half you choose, try to make the level thrilling as a result of the increase in difficulty. For me, HeLL does a great job at this because I would also get super nervous every time I passed 40%. Now I don’t have any examples of second half heavy levels in mind. The closest I have is Elecrodynamix. That was just some of my thoughts on this topic
Yeah I tried to do Future Funk as my first hard demon, and I gave up after I got 91% because I just wasn't making progress For me atleast, the hardest part was the clutter funk mini ship in the middle, and the high life wave after, about 40% in I had practiced the dual to the end to hell so it really wasn't all that bad to me, but my nerves would get the better of me so early on so I barely even made it to the dual. I gave up and did Nowise instead, which was also annoying as shit
@a05polzar Ehh, I found the gameplay awkward and annoying with too many weird choke points Also I do have bias because the object count made my computer run like shit lmao
this seems like an obvious answer but I believe scaling the intensity of the gameplay with the intensity of the music works best. i come from dance dance revolution/post-in the groove charting community and difficulty balance tends to work best when there's a slight difficulty spike around when the music does something a little interesting. having a level get increasingly harder as it goes on also has some merit (i.e. pump it up charting) but personally I find difficulty spikes around the main "sections" of the music with it easing off inbetween the most fun I have. I find it tiring if it's too hard for an extended period of time and too boring if it's too easy for too long I haven't played this game seriously since like 2019 so take my opinion with a grain of salt
Best balancing for levels are the ones that start off witht the hardest part and sizzle out slowly (usually only works with difficulties up to hard demons tho)
I completely disagree with this, gameplay should always be a flat line in difficulty. I don’t care if it makes the ending less stressful, it makes everything much more fun. Only time I could see a difficulty change being useful is if there is a break part in the middle of a level. It still builds up the intensity for the next part without making the end more difficult. I would much rather die at random parts in a level than die to one part over and over again, especially for extreme demons.
Is it possible that you dislike changes in difficulty because creators have a tendency to change difficulty too much at a time, and that if the shifts were more reined in, you would find them enjoyable?
I despise people who put difficulty at the end, I literally died at the same point at 97% on my hardest. Genuinely thought about deleting my account during that.
I personally disagree about electrodynamix. When i went for it as a new hardest the ship and ufo were the hardest parts. While the 2xspeed cube felt like a breeze, you could see hr ship was harder. The break was definitely after the ufo into the miniufo, and the 2x speed cube was a nice little break. The 3xspeed gameplay was so much harder than the rest, even harder than the ufo, and it felt satisfying to get past the two ship parts. The nervewracking gameplay until the end followed by satisfaction was such a good experience. It was the most attemtps I spent on a level, 600ish. And it was the modt fun level I played
I’m not sure why people like first-half heavy levels. When I play those types of level, I barely make any progress or get far, and it gets frustrating, annoying, and highly demotivating. But when it comes to the opposite type, I’m usually having a good time. It feels good since I get to *play the level* while giving the illusion of progress
I prefer balancing that stresses difficulty in the first half. The longer attempts are the most annoying, so putting harder parts later just makes the player feel like they’re wasting their time. Putting the difficulty in the start may not make the attempts even, but the time spent getting to each % milestone should be about the same.
Having hard parts at the beginning is way better because if the hard part is at the end it makes the level frustrating because u spend most of the time doing an easy section just to instantly die when u get to the hard part
Damn, I thought this was gonna be about demon balancing, like how levels that are rated as harder keep getting rerated easier because people are getting way better at the game. I hate finding a level thats hard demon difficulty, but its under the mask of easy demon because a few sweaty people greatly underestimate its difficulty Imo Shiver and Sidestep are not both easy demon, nor are ICDX and Magma Bound both Insane demon.
If you’re building a half hour level you better don’t make it become harder but instead make it get easier so there is less chance of dying at 99%. This would make people die less on ending and rage less. Rage isn’t good. That’s the only use for decreasing difficulty for me.
I'm trying to make a 12 minute level rn and the middle part is the most intense part The ending is still gonna be hard but not as hard cos past 80-90% fails especially on long levels are horrible
I just follow the music and my heart, the music is my guide and it should be a warning for everybody, hear the little details as you feel you're in the level Tho I'm no expert of making levels so, yeah
Levels that are harder in the beginning are better because you dont have to spend a while doing easy shit before getting to hard parts. Oh, and the easy parts of levels are not easy to build tension, its to give you either A: a break or B: robtop being bad at balancing
What's the best way to balance a level? Check out more of my opinion videos: ua-cam.com/play/PLqu9Hh8jRA8BigH8Jxi7RI34kzVY-6Ep5.html
I think that the level should start easy, then get harder and finish easy
I'm a fan of the hardest part being at the beginning, because I find it less boring when grinding and when you do get far it really turns into a nerve test
I like when XL levels slowly increase in difficulty, like how the first 25% of future funk is relatively easy, and 25-50% is a bit harder. The second half is definitely a good bit harder but Its not a big enough difference to ruin the level for me.
yknow what type of balancing i absolutely despise? clubstep/supersonic type balancing where it's really second half heavy, it just makes it annoying as hell to play from zero
Do you mean levels where the first half isn’t challenging at all and the second half is super hard? If so, I agree with you; that’s so boring.
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 yeah i hate that kind of balancing which sucks, because I'm grinding supersonic rn and it has that type of balancing, so i'm just practicing the dual onwards and like nothing else
Nine Circles is also like this, playing it from zero was SO boring 😮💨
@@AustynLdual is ez actually lol its just 78-100
Poltergeist 20-50, I hated this part so much. Least I fluked it from 44 :D
I know it's comical how much I mention Dark Odyssey, but I feel like it's a perfect example of a balanced level with MASSIVE changes in difficulty. The beginning is like 5 star, and the level at its peak difficulty is probably like hard demon gameplay. However, this doesn't happen all at once. This gradually changed over 6 MINUTES. The level only has a few noticeable jumps in difficulty, but they massively help the storytelling of the level.
Balancing should match the intensity of the song, the intensity of the level itself, the storytelling (if there is any, lol), and it shouldn't be much harder/easier than the part before.
Unbalanced doesn't necessarily mean unfun btw, it all depends on what you enjoy. I just personally think that it's best if you balance this way, since it not only makes the level more fair to play, has more gp diversity than the "flat line" balance, and usually helps intensity.. There's always an exception to the rule though (idk an exception though)
Good idea. I think if your level is longer, you can change the difficulty more (as long as it still happens gradually) without it becoming “unbalanced”.
Love how you use the graph to describe the type balancing. I immediately understood what you said
Glad you found them useful
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301it was genuinely a genius idea though
I had never considered progressive difficulty and difficulty breaks, this is awesome. Learned a lot from this vid, keep it up!
Thank you!
1:57 holy shit the ducklife race ost gave me a sudden wave of nostalgia, absolutely loved it! I can see you've done your homework :)
my favourite balancing is first half, as you can practice the easier half and get super consistent at it making the levels quite flukable most of the time. overall any type of balancing that gets progressively easier as it compensates for your nerves playing the level, giving it the illusion of very balanced gameplay when playing from 0
Yeah, that’s a good point. I think the tension will work better if the easier part isn’t too long, though.
Fluking isn't really fun in my opinion.
With a geometry dash level, the fun doesn't come from finishing the level, it comes from playing and progressing in the level.
@@aquanos Does that make you dislike levels with easier second halves?
My least favorite balancing type is the “U” where the beginning and end are the hardest parts. An example of this is Acu where the beginning and end are significantly harder than the rest of the level which makes it very frustrating imo
yeah i died to the 85% pink orb in acu 15 times in the same sitting lmao. the entire main chunk of the level eventually felt non existent after doing it over and over
I disagree in the case of acu. I found that the predrop gets decently consistent, and the second half of the predrop was never a problem (at least for me) anyway. I also though the drop wasn't completely free, and the level kind of tenses me up until I reach any of the waves. The waves definitely being the hardest parts. The ending is definitely tough, but to me that just makes it 100x more exhilarating when I pass it. Although 85x15 in one session is crazy like how tf does that happen, for the future if something's that inconsistent practice the hell out of it. This is all coming from someone that beat Acu as his first extreme and gave it a 10/10 btw. I'm (clearly) very passionate about the level.
@@thisguykreas EVERYTIME I PRACTICED THE HELL OUT OF THE PINK ORB I DID IT LIKE 5 TIMES IN A ROW AAAAAA
@@thisguykreas I personally found everything from 24-88 to be insanely easy and could do it every third attempt at the drop, it could have been mental block but I at one point got to the end literally 3 attempts in a row.
i found the first part pretty easy tbh, the drop was easier tho but not by much and the end sucks ass
Honestly, balancing isn't something that I care about much when analyzing levels. The top three things that affect enjoyment are as follows:
1. Bugs: If I have to change my refresh rate to pass a part or entering a portal in a specific way causes unintended side effects then the level will immediately be less enjoyable.
2. Readability: If it's not intended to be a memory level or learny, it should be relatively obvious what I'm supposed to do next. Also, deco being unclear as to what's solid/not and overly flashing is annoying.
3. Gameplay: Optimized gameplay and good transitions are key. The level should feel good to play, and the music should sync to what's going on on screen.
2:16 this is definitely me.
I want every difficult level/challenge in any game to have this curve.
The reason is that it makes choking at the finish less common, like i am really bad at keeping nerves.
You know what, I think I would really enjoy this type of balancing in an XL level
Yeah you guys are definitely NOT gonna like my xl level, the beginning is Pretty hard, the middle is a break, the middle-end is.
Pure agony, suffering, painful, and a shocking difficulty spike, and the end is the break and End
Basically beginning is around 6-9 stars - easy demon, middle is 5-9 stars, middle-end is Easy demon (11 seconds of 4-8 stars break at the end of the first part) - easy demon - high-end easy demon, and the end is insane - low easy demon to [auto (end)]
imo it shold be balanced mainly around the songs intensity
example of what not to do: falling up. literally gets harder and harder gradually until it becomes top 1 silent oppenheimer impossible hell demon at the end
i think it's usually best when it matches the song, also i know that chokepoints are inherently bad, but honestly sometimes passing a way harder part or even just tiny section in a part at like 60% and than having a chance at beating the level is fun, tho usually this is only the case when it isn't a super hard level for your skill level, i think it's impossible to make gameplay that is good for everyone and the way gameplay plays is usually more important than the balancing
also do not ever make the gameplay for each part perfectly balanced, it is only marginally better than balancing the entire level, if a part kinda just feels the same throughout it it's not really that fun, this is pretty common in a lot of layouts now and also not just exclusive to the difficulty of it, ig what i'm saying is don't have chokepoints (unless it works) but have some clicks feel a little harder and whatnot
I never thought about this! I'll keep this in mind when making layouts. Great video!
This video is well made and has many agreeablene points
I find that many people get their head wrapped around this topic, whether their level being perfectly balanced, abiding by a formula, or making pointless balance changes. Sometimes these sorts of things hinder levels from reaching their full potential. Imagine if the robtop demons were perfectly balanced, that would be real boring.
Honestly, levels don’t need to be perfectly balanced or strictly follow a certain difficulty pattern
There’s nothing wrong with a little unbalance
Creators should strive to match the difficulty of a part with the intensity of the song at said part
TLDR As long you don’t go sakupen circles mode on the balancing, and your difficulty curve is well thought out and meaningful, you’ll do just fine
i like videos where people talk about their opinions on more general topics like this in gd
Great video! I've had these thoughts for a while but never seen them articulated before.
Something important to note, I think, is that in levels built for their length, relatively even difficulty throughout is basically required in order to make the level not be massively tedious. Butiti 2 comes to mind as having really fun gameplay but being so obnoxiously second half heavy that I could never stand beating, even multiple years after I got... 87% iirc. It's very easy to make your level feel painfully second half heavy in XL levels.
From my experience creating and playing, I've leaned towards (in my own levels) 20-30% having a difficulty spike, 50-60% having a difficulty spike, 60-70% being a break, and 70-80% being a very slight difficulty spike. It's a format that works pretty well for me.
personally i think long levels should gradually get easier as time goes on (with maybe a few increases if the level is super long)
5:38 The background music syncs
Really solid video. Agreed with lots of the points made here. Take a sub :)
i love you this video is so absolutely good
Wow, thanks!
My most favourite balancing in the linear graph for easier levels, a slow decay for demons.
This will help a lot in my "worst top 1"
Some things that probably affect how satisfying a level is to play are: don’t put choke points/really hard parts around transition sections. I.e the last few clicks before the drop and first few clicks of the drop.
Looking at you, beginning of Acu drop...
@@buzzybees8604 where are the chokepoints at the start of the acu drop lol
@@buzzybees8604 Looking at you, toe2 and deadlocked drops...
@@dids5the 2 mini wave clicks
I've been playing this game since 2016, and in my time doing so I beat levels of all kinds of difficulty ranges ( except for today's list demon ), and over time I realized that by far the best kind of difficulty for hard levels like insane and extreme demons is a kind of "trapezoid" shape. My explanation will only be true for extreme and high insane demons, though, so keep that in mind.
It starts off rather easy in the first 3-6% just so you don't bang your head into a wall like an idiot because the first 3 clicks are insane, this gives a sense of relief and lets you breathe a little bit between attempts. Then it starts ramping up the difficulty *slowly*, if it's done right then it won't be all that noticeable, only that, say, 20% is harder than 5%. If it's based around a drop like the overwhelming majority of the levels are, then at the end of the buildup ( excluding any potential auto parts ) the difficulty should stop, and completely flatline ALL THE WAY until the end of the drop. If you want a break in there, put it there. If you want to make the second half of the drop harder, only do ever so slightly so it's noticeable that it's harder, but still only ever so slightly. Then if you have a post drop ending part, make absolutely sure it's below the difficulty of the drop, preferably somewhere between the beginning part and the drop.
Why is this the perfect one in my opinion? Because it adjusts to the needs and demands of the human psyche to make the best kind of experience. You won't die at the very beginning over and over again. Every popular list grinder ever has said many times that if the predrop is ridiculously hard then the level is frustrating. A slow increase makes it sure that you can adjust on the fly. Whatever you do, make ABSOLUTELY SURE the difficulty increase stops rather early in the level then remains constant or close to it throughout the level. Why? This is the most important part:
Well, you might think a climax looks cool and all and that you should adjust the difficulty, but after over 10.000 attempts every level kind of gets old. At that point stress will come from the grind being close to being over, not the flashy climax or something. Every player will grow numb to your climax after a certain point. What does that leave the player with? The hardest part being in the second half of the level, usually in the 60-80's. And let me tell you, it is VERY frustrating. Because at that scale of the difficulty, it's almost guaranteed that you will die to the end multiple times. If you get unlucky, your player might get mind blocked and end up dying 30-50+ times at the end because it's just that hard and because they now gave up on getting away with a few thousand less attempts. Your player will hate your level, or not feel great about it once they finished it despite liking the level initially. You don't want that. Listen: A level being flukable IS A GOOD THING. If you fluke a level from the mid 50's and 60's then the player will feel good about it and fondly remember your level, ASSUMING you did the predrop balancing part well. This is also why it's important that the last part is significantly easier than the ones coming before it. The player will be nervous. That will make them play worse. They can control it to some extent, but in reality they can't, unless their skill level is so beyond your level's one that they just don't care due to apathy. Also make sure you don't leave seconds of inaction in your ending, because that will let the player sit and get out of the flow and realize "oh shit I'm approaching the end" and get nervous. If you can keep your player in flow at the end don't let them go. This is why the last part of RUST is infamous, despite being a level with very high reputation for it's gameplay. Adjust to the player being nervous and make the ending easier.
This formula is at it's best with levels like Incipient and Endless Dream just to give you two examples. It just works every time. Of course, other forms of balancing are good as well, but the more you play the more you will realize that the most liked levels in the community will have a correlation with the trapezoid difficulty curve, and not only that, the more they fit, the more revered they will be.
Very interesting video! This is the kind of content I like to see on gdtwt
Haven’t really seen any videos on difficulty balancing yet (maybe besides Zeronium’s video on balancing Atomic Cannon) but I’m glad it’s been covered
Have you watched Wherwin’s video? It’s what inspired this one
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 I have not. I shall check it out
sick video, nice editing, felt like a big gd youtuber. Subscribed, and i dont even play gd
I'm currently balancing a level I took a lot of time into, thanks for this video. I'll watch it later because balancing is a complex matter 👍
Good luck! Would you mind telling me the ID when you finish?
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301Thank you, I watched the video and it was great! It liked the open-mindedness of it, and it went straight to the point with no clutter, while also being easy to understand. The level is XL so it's taking me months, but it's almost done, it mostly needs deco retouching, and balancing. The balancing is similiar to ToE2 in your example, but I'm trying to not make it too drastic when giving breaks, and the tip about making difficulty more gradual definetely cleared up my mind, I'll tell you when it's done. Thanks again, I'm subscribed
@@soup26_GD Thanks for the kind words, and I can’t wait to play this level when it’s finished (assuming it’s within my skill)
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 It's a low-end extreme, so it's very hard... but the length is XL so it won't be too overwhelming, you could still play some parts with start pos
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301I finished and verified it! It's called "Sephiroth Ultra"
i dont think the ending should be harder. i verified a level with a really hard ending, so you get there every time and its really really annoying. first half heavy levels on the other hand are SO much more fun to me because it makes you excited for a longer amount of time.
my optimal difficulty "chart" is a 3/5 first quarter, 2/5 second quarter, 4/5 third quarter, and then a 3/5 fourth quarter. what do you think?
Pretty cool, but I would prefer 2/5 first quarter and 3/5 second quarter
1:08 don't look at me guys
Absolutely amazing video, the most interesting analysis I’ve seen in GD I think. I think the middle part could be as hard as you want if you make sure that it’s 100% consistent, for example a memory part. The difficulty should come from learning it, not timings imo.
Thank you!
I think harder sections at the beginning work better the progressively shorter a level is. Like take an extreme example like a challenge for instance. Most challenges, in my experience at least, generally gravitate towards extremely difficult beginnings, which helps a lot when grinding them from 0, as it reduces the consistency required to pass the gameplay when its at the beginning, which makes the general playing experience of them a lot smoother in my opinion, and this concept extends some to most levels under a minute generally (although its not often you'll see actual short levels so, but the lack of 40-50 second long levels is a different tangent entirely lol).
In longer levels, say 80+ seconds, you have a lot more room to cultivate an actual difficulty arc, which is where I think drops being the hardest parts, and having troughs like you explained, actually works really well.
Edit: Additional thing, having a stupid easy predrop can easily kill levels (thinking like Poltergeist for example, where the predrop is so mind-numbingly boring its hard to focus when you get to the wave.), and having a stupidly hard/annoying predrop can as well (Sparkling Hope comes to mind).
it depends on how hard the level is imo, it's cool when easy/medium demons become more and more intense but for harder levels it can become frustrating
As some one who likes levels that start out harder I like it (as long as the beginning isn’t too hard) because when you play from zero you naturally become very consistent at the beginning over time, and since the end is easier it makes the level more fun to play from zero as you always feel like you could beat it randomly, it also makes a level more flukable
An example would be a level starting out like bloodbath difficulty and then gradually decreasing in difficulty to an entry level extreme demon difficulty
awesome vid, im gonna keep this in mind when making my new solos
second vid in my “good gd tutorials” private playlist afer like 2 months LOL
Wow, I’m honoured!
A lot of top players seem to share this sentiment, but a level doesn't have to be balanced for the experience to be enjoyable. A great example of this is Fexty. This is one of my favorite levels of all time and yet it's extremely imbalanced. It goes from a hard demon up to 51% and then multiple 60hz frame perfects in the wave. While it can be frustrating, when you finally get past the fexty wave it is *satisfying*.
Mastermind by Hinds and The Caverns by pasiblitz are two levels I enjoyed because they were extremely balanced. No part felt way harder than the rest of the level combined, which brings up another point: Parts will be harder than others in a level, but one part generally shouldn't stand out as being way harder than the whole rest of the level. While fexty proves to me balance isn't everything, it is a large part of what makes a level enjoyable.
Very nice video bro! Keep going i believe in you
😊❤️
I like levels with 2-4 shorter break parts just to be able to collect yourself before the next hard part
Worst type of balancing has to be the an extremely bs beginning. Doesn’t matter if the rest of the level is the most fun thing ever or intense, being stuck at the beginning for like 3 minutes in a row on average is the easiest way to lose patience and any motivation to play the level. Great example being Firewall by Hinds, piece ofnpiss
Totally agree. Dying at the start for a long time is the worst.
I beat this as my hardest yesterday lol. The beginning was a bit frustrating at times, but honestly I enjoyed the level
Extinction by Haon
i think it just depends on the level style. for short levels having a challenge part can be sometimes ok. but long levels probably dont want to have big differences with each part. i personally just like it to fit the music
I would do
For the pre-drop, let the difficulty kinda crescendo, bump the difficulty by a reasonable amount at the drop, and at the post-drop section, let the difficulty kinda decrescendo.
I personally really like first half heavy levels bc I can actually improve at the beginning while I play it instead of it feeling like autoscroll
Nah bro didn’t let electrodynamix end at the outdo 😮
i think the best type of balancing is the start/predrop being the SECOND hardest part, the start of the drop being really easy compared to the rest and then the second half ramps up massively
I play a lot of old demons (going through each one chronologically), and they are usually a good example of how not to balance. A lot of them are balanced as just a flat line (minus a few chokepoints), and that makes the levels sometimes mind-numbing to play. For example, Extreme Park is a really creative level, but it is basically the same difficulty throughout. And it made the level really boring, there was no anticipation, no relief at passing a hard part, no memorable sections. It is just as frustrating to die at a completely random place every attempt as it is to die at the same part every time.
I like osu-like balancing
When difficulty is bound to music intensity with some limits
You should check out well being spot by devin. It sure has balancing.
A fascinating level
I don't care how a level is balanced, as long as one part isn't just stupidly hard compared to the rest of the level.
If you want to make one half of the level harder than the other. Choosing the first half will probably make your level slightly less annoying. Levels like Future Funk and CraZy take forever to complete because the really hard stuff is at the end, and the levels become very annoying and/or boring after a while. However, having the beginning be impossible can be just as annoying. Levels like Poltergeist and HeLL annoyed me to no end because you never get anywhere. Now, I did only die to one spot in particular for Poltergeist, but my point still stands. People also complain about a lot of Extremes having impossible predrops, too. However, I'd say that no matter what half you choose, try to make the level thrilling as a result of the increase in difficulty. For me, HeLL does a great job at this because I would also get super nervous every time I passed 40%. Now I don’t have any examples of second half heavy levels in mind. The closest I have is Elecrodynamix.
That was just some of my thoughts on this topic
slaughterhouse drop being easy makes it boring lol
Yeah I tried to do Future Funk as my first hard demon, and I gave up after I got 91% because I just wasn't making progress
For me atleast, the hardest part was the clutter funk mini ship in the middle, and the high life wave after, about 40% in
I had practiced the dual to the end to hell so it really wasn't all that bad to me, but my nerves would get the better of me so early on so I barely even made it to the dual.
I gave up and did Nowise instead, which was also annoying as shit
I actually liked Nowise personally. What I've found with Hard Demons is that they are either the best levels ever or Classical by: RayOriens
@a05polzar Ehh, I found the gameplay awkward and annoying with too many weird choke points
Also I do have bias because the object count made my computer run like shit lmao
this seems like an obvious answer but I believe scaling the intensity of the gameplay with the intensity of the music works best. i come from dance dance revolution/post-in the groove charting community and difficulty balance tends to work best when there's a slight difficulty spike around when the music does something a little interesting. having a level get increasingly harder as it goes on also has some merit (i.e. pump it up charting) but personally I find difficulty spikes around the main "sections" of the music with it easing off inbetween the most fun I have. I find it tiring if it's too hard for an extended period of time and too boring if it's too easy for too long
I haven't played this game seriously since like 2019 so take my opinion with a grain of salt
bro that yellow furry i think colon but walmart edition
That layout at 0:45 looks fun to play ngl
Thanks, I made it! ID is 85594324
Best balancing for levels are the ones that start off witht the hardest part and sizzle out slowly (usually only works with difficulties up to hard demons tho)
I completely disagree with this, gameplay should always be a flat line in difficulty. I don’t care if it makes the ending less stressful, it makes everything much more fun. Only time I could see a difficulty change being useful is if there is a break part in the middle of a level. It still builds up the intensity for the next part without making the end more difficult. I would much rather die at random parts in a level than die to one part over and over again, especially for extreme demons.
Is it possible that you dislike changes in difficulty because creators have a tendency to change difficulty too much at a time, and that if the shifts were more reined in, you would find them enjoyable?
I despise people who put difficulty at the end, I literally died at the same point at 97% on my hardest.
Genuinely thought about deleting my account during that.
I personally disagree about electrodynamix. When i went for it as a new hardest the ship and ufo were the hardest parts. While the 2xspeed cube felt like a breeze, you could see hr ship was harder. The break was definitely after the ufo into the miniufo, and the 2x speed cube was a nice little break. The 3xspeed gameplay was so much harder than the rest, even harder than the ufo, and it felt satisfying to get past the two ship parts. The nervewracking gameplay until the end followed by satisfaction was such a good experience. It was the most attemtps I spent on a level, 600ish. And it was the modt fun level I played
same here
I’m not sure why people like first-half heavy levels. When I play those types of level, I barely make any progress or get far, and it gets frustrating, annoying, and highly demotivating. But when it comes to the opposite type, I’m usually having a good time. It feels good since I get to *play the level* while giving the illusion of progress
Same for me, but I guess it’s a personal preference thing
a good example of a level like this would be hell by serponge, due to that one wave part, or verity (also by serponge), due to that one wave part
I prefer balancing that stresses difficulty in the first half. The longer attempts are the most annoying, so putting harder parts later just makes the player feel like they’re wasting their time. Putting the difficulty in the start may not make the attempts even, but the time spent getting to each % milestone should be about the same.
People like a harder start because if they die they haven’t lost as much progress
What about "difficulty should represent the song's intensity"
I agree; that’s why I talked about drops.
Having hard parts at the beginning is way better because if the hard part is at the end it makes the level frustrating because u spend most of the time doing an easy section just to instantly die when u get to the hard part
4:40 my guy called the ship before the long tunnel in toe2 difficult💀
It’s pretty tricky for a three second part
this channel is great :)
best balancing is a downwards line from the beginning to the end
Damn, I thought this was gonna be about demon balancing, like how levels that are rated as harder keep getting rerated easier because people are getting way better at the game.
I hate finding a level thats hard demon difficulty, but its under the mask of easy demon because a few sweaty people greatly underestimate its difficulty
Imo Shiver and Sidestep are not both easy demon, nor are ICDX and Magma Bound both Insane demon.
is that.. is that the duck life racing music
Yes.
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 beautiful
bro is gd cologne
Good video
If you’re building a half hour level you better don’t make it become harder but instead make it get easier so there is less chance of dying at 99%. This would make people die less on ending and rage less. Rage isn’t good.
That’s the only use for decreasing difficulty for me.
I'm trying to make a 12 minute level rn and the middle part is the most intense part
The ending is still gonna be hard but not as hard cos past 80-90% fails especially on long levels are horrible
I just follow the music and my heart, the music is my guide and it should be a warning for everybody, hear the little details as you feel you're in the level
Tho I'm no expert of making levels so, yeah
exactly why everyone loves danzmen gameplay.. except god yeeter
why is the entire video offset
you know what we don't need? making electrodynamix even harder cuz its already the hardest insane level.
Just call it an Easy Demon at this point 🤷♂️
damn subbed
Unbalancing Is kinda memorable.
This was my daily level… 0:19
Very cool level!
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 I agree
why the quality of the clips is SO BAD
Levels that are harder in the beginning are better because you dont have to spend a while doing easy shit before getting to hard parts.
Oh, and the easy parts of levels are not easy to build tension, its to give you either A: a break or B: robtop being bad at balancing
For me magmatic sanctuary is the best example of a balanced difficulty level
Yes but they nerfed it :(
@@SomuaSomua I didn't know about that, but maybe it was required. The drop is still a good spike in difficulty.
haha no
@@THTB_lol Any evidence or even just opinions to support your claim?
@@gappleofdiscord9752 unstable speed part is ass in balancing, first wave is way too easy, first cube is way too
Why do you sound like gd colon
I think we can all agree that cataclysm balancing sucks
No
Has anyone told you that you sound exactly like colon 😭
Yes.
Lmao I dont hear it, but aight
Idk
you sound like gdcolon
denouement 😈
Conclusion
so
Bro stole gd cologne voice 💀
сука я хотел сделать что то про эту тему
I didn’t invent this idea either I got it from Wherwin 💀
@@rootbeerfloathaspop3301 ок просто грустно(((((
I like chosal levels. Husal levels are trash lol
whats that
lol
what the hell is wrong with your video quality dude